MarTech Podcast ™ — "Why CEO’s Still Don’t Get Modern Marketing"

Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Catherine Rathje, Partner at McKinsey
Date: December 15, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the erosion of marketing’s influence within the executive suite — especially the declining presence of CMOs in Fortune 500 companies — and investigates why many CEOs still “don’t get” modern marketing. Benjamin Shapiro (host) talks to McKinsey’s Catherine Rathje about the increasing fragmentation of marketing roles, the disconnects between CEOs and CMOs, the challenge of proving marketing’s value, and why marketers need to think more like investors and business leaders to reclaim credibility and a seat at the big table.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Vanishing CMO: Executive Trends & Data

• Only 66% of Fortune 500 companies had a CMO last year, a 71% year-over-year drop ([01:15]).
• Marketing budgets are declining — now just 7.7% of revenue.
• Just 31% of CMOs believe their CEO is comfortable with their marketing strategy.

  “Why is marketing's seat at the big table disappearing? How do you rebuild marketing's credibility in your company?” — Benjamin Shapiro ([01:15])

The Fragmentation of Marketing Leadership

• Explosion of C-suite roles: Companies increasingly have Chief Digital Officers, Growth Officers, Data Officers, splitting what was once “marketing”.
• “When everybody owns the customer, nobody owns the customer.” — Catherine Rathje ([02:27])
• Market and media landscape complexity (AI, data, privacy) is accelerating the fragmentation.

The CEO/CMO Disconnect

• CEOs tend to feel they understand marketing, while most CMOs disagree ([04:22]).

  “Everyone kind of feels like they understand marketing… but no one was ever emailing the CFO saying, ‘I think you did this accounting wrong’.” — Catherine Rathje ([04:22])

• CMOs and CEOs often define “success” differently. CEOs focus on YoY revenue/margin growth (70%), while only 35% of CMOs cite those as primary KPIs ([07:08]).
• Only 30% of CMOs say their organizations have a clear definition of marketing ROI.

The KPI Conundrum: Short-term vs. Long-term Value

• Marketers hesitate to commit to a single KPI (“I want to protect the short-term and the long-term”).
• CEOs want clarity and simplicity — “revenue, right now”.
• Need for a North Star, not an “alphabet soup of metrics” ([09:12]).

  “We need to understand what is the business driving. Are we in a margin harvesting mode? Are we in a growth mode?...If you can’t have that on a single piece of paper—it’s where you should start.” — Catherine Rathje ([09:12])

• Crucial alliance: CEO, CFO, CMO — marketing must be quantified as an investment, not a cost center.

The CMO as Integrator and Customer Champion

• CMOs must unify insights and operationalize customer knowledge for the rest of the C-suite ([11:37]).

  “Of any role, the CMO is the one that should be working the most cross-functionally.” — Catherine Rathje ([13:20])

Overcoming Perceptions & Proving Marketing’s Value

• The classic “50% of my marketing is working—I just don’t know which 50%” adage persists ([15:29]).
• Many execs treat marketing as a “bet” — investing now to create future value, not an engineering process with immediate feedback.
• Advancements in attribution and measurement experiments (full funnel testing, controlled experiments on brand spend) can demonstrate marketing’s real impact ([16:29]).

  “You say, ‘Okay, like we’ve run this experiment, we know it, we’ve proved it, and now we’re going to use those relationships going forward’.” — Catherine Rathje ([18:48])

The Broken-up CMO Role: What Happens Now?

• When the marketing function is split (head of digital, head of growth, etc.), integrating insights is much harder ([19:34]).
• Requires a top-down mandate (CEO, CFO, CMO) for unified measurement and accountability.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On role fragmentation:

  “As we always say, when everybody owns the customer, nobody owns the customer.”
  — Catherine Rathje ([02:27])

• CEO/CMO misunderstanding:

  “Everyone kind of feels like they understand marketing...but no one was really ever emailing the CFO saying, 'I think you did this accounting wrong.'”
  — Catherine Rathje ([04:22])

• On the metrics disconnect:

  “Only 30% of CMOs will say their org has a clear definition of what marketing return on investment is. And that should be alarming.”
  — Catherine Rathje ([07:08])

• On needing more than one metric:

  “Not the Alphabet soup of marketing measurement...Some times we’re our own worst problem.”
  — Catherine Rathje ([09:12])

• On the CMO’s cross-functional role:

  “The CMO is the one that should be working the most cross-functionally of any of the C suite.”
  — Catherine Rathje ([13:20])

• Classic marketing joke:

  “Stop me if you’ve heard this one. 50% of my marketing is working. I just don’t know which 50.”
  — Benjamin Shapiro ([15:23])

• On personalization going too far:

  “The value exchange needs to be clear...Sometimes the reason why they think [personalization] happened is actually creepier in their mind than reality.”
  — Catherine Rathje ([28:34])

• Host’s take on creepy personalization:

  “It’s like, ‘Hi Benjamin, who lives in Burlingame...And by the way, how’s your cat Brisket?’ And I’m like, oh, now we’re creepy.”
  — Benjamin Shapiro ([29:48])

Key Segment Timestamps

• The Drop in CMO roles, budgets, and trust: [01:15]–[02:27]
• Why roles are fragmenting, no clear ownership: [02:27]–[04:22]
• CEO vs. CMO understanding, success definition: [04:22]–[07:08]
• Metrics misalignment, short vs long-term focus: [07:08]–[09:12]
• Alliances: CMO, CFO, CEO—the critical trifecta: [09:12]–[10:59]
• CMO as cross-functional integrator: [11:37]–[13:20]
• Education, proof, and closing the perception gap: [13:51]–[18:48]
• What happens when CMO role is fully fragmented: [18:48]–[20:38]
• Lightning round and career insights: [20:49]–[26:35]
• Personalization, AI, and the boundaries of relevance: [28:24]–[32:31]

Lightning Round Highlights

• Career path: Catherine’s background mixes analytical rigor (mother was a computer scientist) with marketing creativity (father, marketing director) ([20:59]).
• Most common marketing leader mistake: “Shiny object syndrome” — chasing new vendors or tools without clear alignment to objectives ([23:28]).
• AI distractions: AI is valuable but fuels the “shiny object” problem. Most noise comes from labeling everything as AI, rather than focusing on true business value ([25:06]).

Tone & Language

• Candid, approachable, and pragmatic: Both speakers use relatable examples and industry in-jokes (“Monday morning marketer,” “alphabet soup of metrics,” “don’t know which 50% [of marketing] is working”).
• Balanced with research and firsthand C-suite observations: Catherine grounds her points in McKinsey data and executive conversations.

Bottom Line: Episode Takeaways

• Marketing’s seat at the table is threatened by both external shifts (media, tech fragmentation) and internal disconnects (misaligned metrics and expectations).
• CMOs must clarify and prove value in financial terms, ally with CFO and CEO, and reframe marketing as investment—not cost.
• Education, cross-functionality, and clear KPIs are critical for marketing’s future.
• Avoid chasing shiny tech; strategy and objectives should drive adoption, not vice versa.
• Personalization and AI are powerful but must serve customer value, not egos or creep factor.

This episode is essential listening for marketers, CMOs, and business leaders navigating the evolving power dynamics in the C-suite — and those determined to ensure marketing still owns the customer and delivers measurable value.