Finding and Communicating With Clients

Summary

Podcast Summary: Master Photography – "Finding and Communicating With Clients"

Date: April 14, 2022
Host: Jeff Harmon (Master Photography Team)
Guest: Levi Sim (Utah State University photographer)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into one of the most challenging skills for many photographers: finding clients and building productive, long-term relationships with them. Host Jeff Harmon welcomes back Levi Sim to discuss practical and relationship-based strategies for connecting with new clients, effective communication, why traditional advertising and social media might be less effective than you think, and how to excel at the "people part" of the photography business. The episode is jam-packed with real-world advice, engaging stories, and actionable tips suitable for both newcomers and established photographers seeking to level up their client interactions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Finding Clients

• Jeff admits the ‘people part’ is his weakness: He excels in technical aspects but struggles to connect and communicate with clients. His wife helps a lot with the client-facing side.
• Levi’s strength is practice: Levi shares that his approachable manner is a practiced skill, not just a natural talent. Even for outgoing people, consistent practice is essential.
  “It’s definitely a practiceable skill… like photography, or cooking spaghetti…” (06:59)

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2. Generating Leads & Building Relationships

Early Business-Building Tactics

• Starting from zero in new cities: Levi has moved and rebuilt his business from scratch multiple times.
• Practice with strangers:
  • Approach friends, neighbors, coworkers: “Can I practice on your kids?”
  • Don’t overuse your own children as models: “You have a finite number of pictures you’re allowed to make of your own children... practice on the neighbors’ kids instead.” (08:31)

Guerrilla Marketing at Local Events (10:39 - 15:00)

• Farmer’s Markets, State Fairs, Home & Garden Shows:
  • Set up a simple booth with a backdrop and invite people in for free/quick portraits.
  • The primary goal is building relationships, not making money that day.
  • One continued client came from these events, but Levi stresses the immense value in practicing both photography and interpersonal skills.
  • Example: At a Home & Garden Show, Levi photographed 1,500 people in a weekend using a dramatic lighting setup and instant image previews. Most didn’t hire him, but the rapport built led to future business.

Community Networking (16:50 - 20:48)

• Join Local Organizations:
  • Chamber of Commerce and Rotary Clubs—“Everyone there is doing business in your community… that's a great resource, even if they aren't your clients.”
  • Networking should focus on genuine interest in others’ businesses and providing value, not overt self-promotion.

Referrals Trump Advertising (22:17 - 24:00)

• Word-of-mouth beats ads:
  “I’ve had radio ads, magazine ads, social ads…only once have I gotten a client from them…but so many from a handwritten thank-you note.”
• The power of personalized touches: Sending thank-yous after sessions builds goodwill and turns clients into referrers.

Referral Story (24:05 - 27:56)

• The infamous “sheep with breast implants” story: One unpaid gig at a theatre led to a chain of medical/commercial gigs, including travel for major clients.
  “Just these little connections lead to so much…you don’t know when your neighbor is going to refer you to something unexpected.”

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3. Digital Marketing vs. Real-World Networking

The Instagram/Facebook Debate (28:31 - 37:04)

• Instagram is overhyped for actually booking clients:
  • Social posts may remind existing contacts you’re a photographer but rarely bring in new, high-quality business.
  • “Building my followers on Instagram is valueless. Businesses don’t pick their headshot photographer by scrolling Instagram.” (29:23)
• Digital presence still matters—as a trust signal:
  • Prospects may check your social or website after a referral to vet your work.
• Social Media as an Echo Chamber:
  “Do I really want people surfing Instagram all day to hire me? They’re constantly comparing my work to everyone else…”

Targeting the Right Clients (39:28 - 42:59)

• Know your ideal customer:
  • For Levi, it’s “mothers with teenagers, established in their community, with disposable income.”
  • 80% of photography clients are women, even for business shoots.
  • Build profiles of your ideal buyer and tailor your outreach accordingly.

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4. Communicating With New and Prospective Clients

The Initial Conversation (43:47 - 50:41)

• Be warm, professional, and in control:
  • “I recommend these three places…”
  • Set expectations about the shoot, timing, and process.
  • Ask detailed questions (family size, ages, special requests).
• Communicate on their terms: Prefer text or phone over email, and confirm logistics.

Location Scouting (50:41 - 55:22)

• When you’re new, let clients choose the location—it exposes you to venues you may not know.
• Over time, build a repertoire of proven spots and show your work to guide future clients.

During the Shoot—Clear Direction is Key (56:16 - 61:07)

• Give very specific posing instructions:
  • “Look at that leaf, look at the camera, push your forehead out…”
  • Keep parents focused on the camera and let you wrangle the kids.
• Maintain control for better efficiency and client trust.
• Examples work: Bring a sheet or phone with example poses; use them as cues, especially early on.

After the Shoot—Staying Top-of-Mind (56:36 - 63:47)

• Set clear expectations for delivery.
• Send a physical thank-you note: “An email or text thank you is not enough—a real card stands out these days.” (63:40)
• Follow up in a few months for referrals.
• Annual reminders: “It’s been a year! Would love to make pictures for you again, just like your dentist reminds you for checkups.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Skill-Building:
  “It's just a skill—like photography, cooking spaghetti, or talking to strangers. You don’t have to like it, but you can get better at it with practice.” – Levi (06:59)
• On Digital Ads:
  “I’ve had radio ads, magazine ads, social ads…only once have I gotten a client from them—but so many from a handwritten thank-you note.” – Levi (22:17)
• On Networking:
  “Don’t go to networking meetings and pitch yourself—ask about their business and see how you can help.” – Levi (17:54)
• On Social Media:
  “Building my followers on Instagram is valueless. Businesses don’t pick their headshot photographer by scrolling Instagram.” – Levi (29:23)
• On Referrals:
  “You don’t know when your next door neighbor is going to refer you to photograph the president when he comes to town…” – Levi (27:56)
• On Client Communication:
  “Be clear and frequent without being annoying—work it like a dentist.” – Levi (43:47)
• On Thank-You Notes:
  “Don’t waste your time sending a thank you email. Sending a thank you text doesn't matter.” – Levi (63:47)
• On The Value of Specific Instructions:
  “Your job, mom and dad, is to look at the camera and smile. Let me get your kids to look and smile. The shoot will go much faster.” – Jeff (58:35)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Host Introduction & Levi's Background: 00:00 – 03:54
• Generating Leads from Scratch: 04:17 – 10:39
• Event & Booth Marketing: 10:39 – 15:26
• Networking and Community Involvement: 16:50 – 20:48
• Effectiveness of Advertising vs. Referrals: 22:05 – 24:00
• Amazing Referral Chain Story: 24:05 – 27:56
• Social Media Discussion: 28:31 – 37:04
• Identifying Ideal Clients: 39:28 – 42:59
• First Conversation with Prospective Client—Script: 43:47 – 50:41
• Location Scouting and Building Options: 50:41 – 55:22
• Clear Communication During & After the Shoot: 56:09 – 63:47
• Thank You Notes and Workflow: 63:47 – 64:14
• Doodads of the Week (Gear Recommendations): 65:35 – 74:23

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Additional Highlights

• Practical tools and plugins for sports photography workflow (Pixnub's Easy Green Screen, Team Builder, Sports Automation): 65:35 – 69:27
• Platypod Ball Tripod Head overview and Kickstarter preview: 70:38 – 74:18
• Closing encouragement and networking opportunity: Levi offers a real gig in Tooele, UT, underlining the power of community and podcast networking (64:29 – 65:35)

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For More

• Show Notes and Links: Available at masterphotographypodcast.com
• Join the Facebook Group: Master Photography Podcast (must name a podcast host to join)
• Levi on Instagram: @photolevi
• Jeff's work: jsharmonphotos.com | Photo Taco Podcast

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Key Takeaways

• Personal connections and community presence are crucial for building a sustainable photography client base.
• Clear, specific communication at every stage—from initial contact to post-shoot thank you—sets you apart and leads to more referrals.
• Social media can be useful for verification, but rarely generates new business directly.
• The most effective growth tactics often cost little more than your time and effort.
• Practice approaching/engaging people to build both your confidence and client list.
• Never underestimate the power of a handwritten thank-you note!

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Master Photography Podcast. Welcome to the Master Photography Roundtable, part of the Master Photography Podcast Network. You're joined by thousands of photographers listening to the show or on the same journey to master their photography. I'm your host, Jeff Harmon, and. And in this episode, I'm welcoming back a frequent guest of the show and a photographer at Utah State University, Mr. Levi Sim. Welcome back, Levi.

[B]

Thanks, Jeff. I'm glad to be here. It's always fun. Yeah. What is this with getting up at 8am on a Saturday to record a podcast?

[A]

It's torture. Yeah. Rare form of torture.

[B]

It's also the only time the kids are engaged. I make them watch Saturday morning cartoons, so.

[A]

Nice. I like the make part there. That's. They're not willing at all.

[B]

They're not allowed to start before 7 and they have to start at 7:30.

[A]

Excellent. I love it. Yeah. I don't have kids that are interested in cartoons anymore, so I'm getting older.

[B]

Well, that means you're missing out on Bluey, which is a shame.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know Bluey. Don't know Bluey. That must be too new for mine.

[B]

Just imagine Australian pbs. That's all you need to know.

[A]

Okay. All right. Very good. Love it. Love it. All right, so I wanted to have Levi come onto the show to help me. I need some help in this area. This is an area I lack a lot in the technical stuff, camera settings, imports, editing, all that stuff I've been spending years working on and perfecting, and I feel like I do a really good job with that. The place my own photography struggles the most is the people part. That's the part that I don't do very well with. And I'm very fortunate. I have a lovely wife who is very good at that. So we work together in our photography business anyway, with, you know, she helps handle the scheduling of clients and working with them and even on shoot is where she really does a good job in positioning them and helping them to look their best and get the photos that they want out of our shoot. So that's really helpful. If it was left to me, we'd really struggle. It would be a problem. But, Levi, I've been with you on a photo walk here in Salt Lake City, downtown Salt Lake. We had one a few years ago.

[B]

Yeah. Holy cow, that was too long ago.

[A]

Right. Because it was pre Covid. So it feels like 10 years ago now because of that. And I was amazed to watch you in your element because it seems like this is like natural for you to be able to get out there, talk to people, to get people comfortable being in front of your camera when they, when you first engage with them are not. They are totally uncomfortable. And I've seen within, like, you know, a couple of minutes of talking with them able to, like, break the ice and work through and. And be able to convince them, like a perfect stranger that you didn't know two minutes ago is now going to take a photo of you, going to create a photo, and they're okay with it and are letting you do that. So I thought I've had you on to talk a little bit about that in the past, but I want to focus just even a bit further, and I wanted to get some tips from you, some of your best tips on how to do this. But I wanted to start even at the very beginning of, like, how is it you even get leads in being able to do photo shoots with clients? What are you doing to generate that kind of leads? You moved to Logan, Utah, a little bit ago.

[B]

Well, let's be clear. I'm still in Idaho. I live about 50 yards from Utah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. During the pandemic, I moved to Utah and now I work at Utah State University. So.

[A]

So you got a new location. Yeah. So you kind of had to start again with generating leads and how are you going to work with clients and so on. So walk me through how you approached that.

[B]

Well, and I'm cheating because at the university, I don't have to get clients. In fact, I have to turn people away all the time because not everybody at the university is my, like, client. I'm not a. I'm not. I can't make pictures for the College of Science, but I can make pictures for the university ambassadors. It's weird, but. So I'm always turning people away. But I had to do this when I moved to Portland a few years ago and again when I moved to Boise a few years after that and had to start completely from scratch, not knowing. Well, literally knowing one person in each town. And so, yeah, I've had to find people to pay me to take pictures. And it is. I mean, it's the. It's the thing you have to do. And it's. It's hard. And I'm. I'm very. I'm effervescent and I'm. I'm gregarious and I. I can approach people and not be intimidated by that, but I still have to practice. Like, it's not. It's not difficult for me, but it's still not. I mean, I do it, but I do it because I do it.

[A]

Okay, you're well practiced, is that.

[B]

I'm well practiced at this point. And, I mean, I've been doing it since I was a little kid. I would. I would tow a wagon around to construction sites and sell guys lemonade, and that worked pretty well for me. And I would sell Boy Scout popcorn door to door, and, you know, I'd sell the chocolate bars for the choir fundraiser or whatever in high school. So. So I've had a lot of experiences. I was a missionary in Taiwan for two years, walking up to perfect strangers and speaking with them. And so I've had lots of practice, but it's still not like, man, I got nothing going on. I'm going to go talk to strangers today. I don't not enjoy it, but I have to engage myself to go do it. I enjoy it every time.

[A]

It makes me happy to hear you say that, though.

[B]

Exactly. Well, yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm strange when I really don't enjoy this. Like, this is not fun for me. And I feel like that's communicated as I engage in it. Like, the times when I have had to go engage with perfect strangers and talk with them, they can tell, like, this is. You're not good at this. Right from the beginning. This. It's like within seconds, like, wow, you're really bad at this. And I'm done talking with you because this is awkward and leaving. So I'm glad to hear that you at least feel like it's not completely natural. But how do you change that?

[B]

Well, it's definitely a practiceable skill. Just, I mean, like, photography. People have talent with photography and they can see a good composition, but I can also learn what a good composition looks like, and I can practice that. And I can learn how to do art, and I can learn how to cook spaghetti with the right amount of salt. And it's just. It's just a skill that you practice, and so is talking to perfect strangers. And you don't have to be. It never has to be comfortable for you, but it can be less difficult for you. And the key really is just practice. And so, yeah, I've got several good ideas for how to get clients, and there are things that I've done personally. So I bought a camera in 2009, and I bought it with the intent of starting a portrait business. In fact, before I'd even got my camera in the mail from Adorama, I had already attended two workshops and read a million blogs and all these things. And then my camera arrived and I hit the road running. And one of the first things I did to get, besides talking to neighbors and people at church and, you know, co workers and everything and just saying, hey, I'm a photographer, can I practice on your kids? They're like, yes, take my kids practice on. Just don't point it at me.

[A]

And right.

[B]

So there's lots, like, there's lots of ways. And it's also, let me just throw in real quick. Do not practice on your own kids. You have a finite number of pictures that you're allowed to make of your own children, and they will make sure that you know that and you don't want to waste them on practice. So the neighbor's kid is very happy to be in your pictures and do whatever you say and smile every time. But when you point the camera at your kids and tell them to smile, smile, smile, smile, you're gonna, you're gonna ruin photography for them, being in pictures for them. So I encourage you not to practice on your own family. But in addition to that, I, I went to the farmer's market in town and you know, it's in the park on Saturday and you can walk around and buy trinkets and tomatoes and fresh beef and all these things and you can just get a booth. It cost me 20 bucks. I bought a booth one day. I popped up a white pop up shelter and I put a black fleece blanket hanging down in the back of it. And so the white shelters are nice because they let a little light through and it's diffused and not too harsh. And then I put a white poster board on the ground and I invited people in to be in a picture. And I was not a good photographer, but I photographed like 20 families that day. And later on, one of them ended up calling me back. And her, she continues to be a client and I photograph her kids. And now they're all married and all these things. And so that continues to be good. But I just posted the pictures in an album on Facebook and people got them. Only the one person ever called me back. But, boy, I learned a lot about photography that day. And it was a great way for me to get out there and talk to people and engage with them and learned that green grass with sunlight shining on it casts a green shadow under everybody's chins.

[A]

So yes, it does. Anywhere there's like gray, it's going to be green, right?

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I like do that, like get a booth at the farmer's market, get a booth at the state fair, the county fair, the whatever is coming up. Get a booth at the ice skating tournament and do free pictures. It's not about making a living that day. It's about making relationships. And when I moved to Portland, it was less than three years after doing that farmer's market. And my business was going very well. In fact, I think that was the best year I've ever had in business as far as money goes in one year. And I had an opportunity to sell my business kind of, you know, because I was leaving town and had this, this thing. But I realized that, that I couldn't sell my S Designs photography because all I had was relationships and I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could transfer those to somebody. And it was a very quick move too. But I realized that Levi Sim was the photography, not my supposed S designs, photography that I could have sold at some point. That didn't pan out for me. I know people set things up that way and can and can make that work, but not. That wasn't for me. And so, but another, another good one. There was a garden show like they do the spring. The radio station puts on the home and garden show every spring. And you come and you see the new bathroom faucets and the tile guy is there and the, you know, there's just 200 booths in the gym at the university or at the event center or wherever. There's one of these in every town across America every spring. And I paid, I think I paid 500 bucks to have a booth there. And I mean that was kind of a big investment for me.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But I did a similar thing and it's indoors this time on a indoor track like I think it was at the field house at the university. And so. But I put up a pop up shelter. I don't own a pop up. I borrowed a pop up shelter from a neighbor and put this thing up. I put a TV in the booth and I put one light like fixed in the rafters of my little pop up shelter. And it's a softbox. That was about, it was probably a 24 inch square softbox. And it's got a flash, it's got a speed light in it and it was angled such that kind of half of a clamshell beauty. So it was angled such that pretty much anybody who came in there would have light shining on their face and in their eyes and shadows just kind of coming downward. And then I plugged my camera into my computer, tethered it and my computer into the TV as a monitor. And so I had auto import going and Lightroom would automatically import the pictures and, and apply a black and white preset that looked fancy as soon as it came in. And then the TV was the second monitor and it would show the picture full screen right there. And so we'd snap a shot, look at the TV and there they are in black and white with this presupplied high contrast kind of thing. It was pretty cool. And I wasn't after bubbly smiley pictures because it was like a really dramatic setup. So I was like doing dramatic looking pictures and I invite people in to do a picture and they'd be like smiling at me. I'd be like, okay, don't smile, look at my toes. And then look up here. Really grumpy. And again, I delivered these pictures. I think I was using SpugMug at that point. And so I had a link and they took a picture of. This was before QR codes. And so they just took a picture of the link and went home and, and downloaded their photos. And I photographed 1500 people that weekend. And it wasn't about getting a pretty picture and it wasn't about really getting a picture at all, but it was about having an experience and making an experience together. And so when they think of, hopefully in my brain, when they think of getting photos next time they're going to think, man, I had a picture with that guy one time and it was a lot of fun. And so that's what I want them to remember. And they can hopefully put two and two together and call me. And I did. I got lots of business out of that one.

[A]

And how did you, besides the picture of the link, did they have any, did you get about business cards or anything like that?

[B]

I might have had business cards. I might have had a slip of paper with the link on it. Yeah, something like that. It was very short notice for me. A guy in my photo club did the marketing at the radio and he's like, hey Levi, the thing is this week and I've got a booth left over and I can give you a great deal on it.

[A]

Ah, okay.

[B]

So I didn't have time to get new business cards in the mail or anything. In fact, I remember I took my imac and traded it in at the Mac store and got a new Retina, like the First Retina display MacBook Pro and set that up there. So suddenly I had a new computer and I put quite a lot into that one. But I think it was very well worth it. Not because I got tons of new clients out of it, but because I shot 1500 portraits that day and made a lot of relationships. And so that's hugely valuable. Not only do I get to practice on their time without. Without paying them or. And without, you know, without them paying me either, but I also get to practice my relationship skills. And that's. That's really key.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then. Can I tell you one more?

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

So I moved to Portland and literally only knew one person in the entire state. And so I joined the. It was actually Lake Oswego, which is a suburb of Portland, and I joined the Chamber of Commerce there and also a Rotary Club there. And every week, the Chamber of Commerce would get together and have a networking meeting at somebody's business, and you could host the thing this week, and everybody comes over and has coffee and donuts and. And just talks with each other. And so I did that, and I went to every meeting. And after the meeting, I'd hang out and help clean up and put away the chairs or sweep the floor or whatever and talk to people as much as I could. And the key thing is that I'm not talking to people saying, hi, I'm Levi. I do pictures. Can I make pictures for you? It's really old and really annoying. When you go to a networking meeting, you should say, I'm Levi. I do pictures. What do you do?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

How does your business grow? What has been a good technique, like a good marketing strategy for you in this community? Like, be a helpful, friendly person. And this kind of a meeting is really good for people who are not like me, who, like, I could go to that meeting and stand up in front of the meeting the whole time and talk for 20 minutes about myself. But you don't have to do that. You can go and talk to one person at the meeting and have an earnest conversation. And. And I know it's difficult, but it's very easy in a situation like this to talk to somebody because they're trying to talk to you also.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you don't have to be the outgoing one. You just have to not be a clamshell. You just have to not turn somebody away. When they ask you a question, ask the same question back. It's a pretty easy setup. And they'll probably introduce you to someone else because they're like, man, this guy doesn't know how to have a conversation. Hey, Joe, come talk to Levi. He can't carry a tune. He can't carry a conversation in a bucket. But after. After six months of doing that, I Mean, it took some time, but after, after, you know, six months, people would introduce me to somebody else at that meeting and be like, hey, this is Levi. He's the best photographer in town. Meet him. And that person had never seen my photos, right? But. But they knew, they liked working with me because they'd been working with me every week at this meeting. And. Oh, you're a, you're a realtor. This guy's a realtor. Let me introduce you to them. This guy's a mortgage broker. Let me introduce you to him. He's a great guy. Let me introduce you to, you know, my dentist, whatever. All these people are at this meeting trying to meet people, so it's, it's very easy. And, and so that's, that's, that's a good place to meet business people. And I learned at that David Zeisser workshop that I went to before my camera arrived, he said, do business with the people doing business with the people you want to do business with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so everybody in that room has a business in town. You know, there's, there's dentists and there's chiropractors and there's realtors, and there's what, what other people are there? There's lawyers and there's, there's shop owners. And these people are all doing business with, with Jane Doe in town. And that's who, you know, if I, if I want to do family photography, these people are doing business with her, and they can help me understand her and they can help me be in places where I could be introduced to her as well. And so it's, it's a, It's a great resource to have a network of people who aren't even your clients. Does that, does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah. And I have, I heard that advice from, from others, too, about getting out in your town. And that's really more powerful, especially for the crowd that listens here. It tends to be those that are doing this as a side thing. This is not their primary job. And so they're struggling with, like, well, I really want to make sure that I get enough that it at least pays for my equipment. I like doing this, or I enjoy taking portraits, and I'd love to do it, but I do need to make some money at it. And this is like, simple stuff that doesn't cost you much, but your time to be able to go and do.

[B]

And you get practicing all the skills

[A]

you need doing it, all of them, like working with people. And then once you get some people by your camera, you're working on your camera settings and your editing skills and delivery skills. How do you deliver images to them? All of the whole thing you get practice with and yeah, I think it's a really good idea. I think so many of us today turn to the digital world first for the way to be able to do this. They. They go and think, well, if I just advertise on Facebook, all the local people around me are going to see my ads and then I'm going to get business. And it might a little.

[B]

How many times have you bought something off Facebook?

[A]

Almost never, actually, I don't think a single time. In fact, when I see an ad, it's how quick can I get away from this thing rather than convincing me to do it.

[B]

Exactly. But who's your dentist?

[A]

Yeah. Jim Lund is my dentist.

[B]

How did you meet Jim?

[A]

He lived in my neighborhood.

[B]

He lived in your neighborhood. So your neighbors probably went to him and like people go with somebody they know and that. That's it. I've had radio ads and I've had magazine ads and I've had social ads. None of them has. Well, one time off of a magazine ad. I got one client. Exactly one client have I gotten from advertising at all those places. But I have gotten so many more from sending a thank you note, a handwritten thank you note in the mail to the person I just made pictures with. And now I've. I've tripled down on their impressions with me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And when somebody says who did your photos? They don't even have to be good. Like your photos don't even have to be good.

[A]

Well, the average person doesn't even know when a photo is good. Exactly.

[B]

Like there's smiling kids on the Christmas card. That's all that counts. That's all that really matters. And so your photos should be decent and you should do the best you can. But the key thing is that people want to work with somebody they like and they know they like you because Jane, who I already photographed for, liked me. And so they take that recommendation so much. I mean, when I buy stuff on Amazon, I definitely buy the thing with the most recommendations.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And it's, it's just the easiest way to do business and to keep business is. Is with referrals. It a hundred percent, especially in families and especially in businesses. I do lots of commercial work and I do lots of family work. Everybody comes from some relationship. I got a call. Can I tell you an experience?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I got a call on Tuesday. I was walking back from a shoot on campus and I Got a call from a lady in New Jersey who I've worked with for a long time. Tell me if I've told this story on your podcast before. But I was 10 years ago, before I moved to Portland. I was living in the same town where I work now, in Logan, Utah. And I had a studio right next to the theater. And at this point I had become a full time photographer. So I had a building that I went to every day and I had people there and I had a great deal. I don't think you need to have a studio. There's plenty of rental places. But it was right next to the theater and my assistant knew the people who were doing the Nutcracker play. And so we went and photographed portraits of the Nutcracker play. I don't even think, I don't know if we even got paid for it, which is great. Awesome opportunity to photograph, to make dramatic pictures of people who are interacting with half the community on their own already and sending these pictures out to everybody. And it says, you know, photos by Levi and Shanda in the bottom corner or whatever. After the play, one of the gals who's on the board for the play is the marketing director at the hospital. She says, hey, Levi, I need headshots done of the surgeons. Come do headshots for me. So I go do headshots. She gets a call from somebody in New Jersey who says, who do you use for medical photography? Oh, we use Levi now. Medical photography is not photographing medical professionals. Medical photography involves tissues and living, like close ups of living stuff. And so she called me and said, have you ever done this kind of thing? I said, well, I've. I photographed some babies being born and I photographed a lot of close ups of flowers. Can I send you some samples? And she goes, sure. And then she sends me a message and says, meet me at this address at 7am on Friday morning. I show up. It's a sheet metal building with a bunch of sheep corrals outside. And there's a bunch of sheep in pens outside this building. I go in and it's an avatar, it's a slaughterhouse.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I go in a little farther and there's a surgical theater in the back of this, in the back of the slaughterhouse. It turns out these rams all had breast implants. And we are, I'm photographing these, these medical trials that they've been doing using these sheep to see how, how their bodies react over time to these, these different devices in their bodies. And, and suddenly I'm photographing sheep with. And their rams, these rams with breast implants, having. Having them removed. And then after that, Jen called me more for. We're photographing live breast implant surgeries. We're photographing workshops with doctors, with surgeons. And when surgeons do a workshop, it's not like photographers who do work, actually. It's just like photography. You know, we get models and we. We point our cameras at them. Well, models for doctors are cadavers. And I photographed like 400 dead bodies now. And so. And I continue to have this relationship with her. And so the same gal called me on Tuesday and said, I'm leaving the company. We've been working together for. For the last decade, and I want you to come do this thing for me in San Francisco soon. And in addition to that, two of her employees who have left her employ, I continue to work for them for the last several years at their new companies doing the. Doing events and stuff that they have. And they fly me around the country to be their photographer.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And there's plenty of photographers in Miami, but I go to Miami with these guys all the time because they'd rather work with somebody they know. And so they. They pay extra for me to get there. And frankly, I probably charge less than the Miami photographers. But just, just these little connections lead to so much, and you don't know when your next door neighbor is going to refer you to, you know, photograph the president when he comes to town or something.

[A]

Right, right. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I think building relationships is all there is.

[A]

What about today? So we already talked about kind of the ads on the digital platforms aren't probably the best option for getting business. The relationships are so much more important. What about it seems like a lot of photographers spend a lot of time building up their Instagram account, sharing their work like crazy, and they're like lives

[B]

and stealing other people's work and posting it as their own.

[A]

Or that. Sure.

[B]

Which don't do. If you're listening to this podcast, I've

[A]

had some of mine show up there. Yes. Some accounts. Yep. Okay, so what about that approach? Is that something that you think is more meaningful? And let me preface it. Well, maybe I shouldn't poison the waterhole here. Tell me what yours is, and then I'll share with you how I feel about it.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Yeah. I've done Instagram, I've done lots of Facebook. I haven't. I haven't. I think I ran an ad once on Facebook. Building my followers on Instagram is valueless. It doesn't matter when I consider who Hires me, businesses hire me, the light. Like I did. I did pictures last week for a company I did pictures for 10 years ago. And I think I was the last one to do their headshots. And then I did them again. They didn't find me on Facebook. They found me through remembering that they worked with me last time. And they're not sitting there on Instagram going, should we have this guy do pictures for us? Should we have this person who photographs people in fields of flowers do headshots for us? It's not like no one, like, I don't think they're sitting there surfing Instagram looking for their photographer.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And if I am spending my time pushing things onto Instagram and, you know, creating these stories or whatever in the hopes that some big brand is going to call me, it could happen. But I don't think it will. It hasn't to me. And I've even been an ambassador for several brands. Like, I've been an official ambassador who gets paid to go speak at things for several brands. And they didn't find me through Instagram. They found me through personal relationships. And if you're thinking, man, I want Nikon to pick me up as their ambassador and they're going to see me by being on Instagram, they have very few ambassadors. And any of the brands out there that you are likely to pick up, like, I get invited all the time to. Do you ever get the ones on Instagram to be a ambassador for such and such clothing brand or.

[A]

Yeah, there's things that reach out. Well, I.

[B]

Or Damascus Knives. Anybody reaching out to me on Instagram isn't, isn't worth my time. Like, they're not, they're not real and they're not going to pay me. They might send me some free stuff or they'll send me a coupon for 80% off of the season's line. Being. Being an influencer is not the same thing as being a business person. A business person. And, and getting paid to do things. It's easy to get free gear. Like if you're, if you're after free gear and, and we go through this phase where, where getting free stuff is really fun and cool and it makes you feel valued. And it is. I mean, it's, it's, it's a nice feeling. And that somebody thinks enough of my opinion to send me something that costs $200. Otherwise, um, it's, it's very fun. And I've written lots of reviews and gotten lots of free gear, but like Scott Bourne says, free gear And a. Well, now probably 450 will buy a cup of coffee at the 7 11. So you. You can't feed your family on free gear. And I. I just think that if you spent that time instead walking around downtown and talking to the businesses in your area, like every business, go to your dentist's office and then talk to all the other businesses in his building and leave a note card that says, I'm your neighborhood photographer, and I just wanted to introduce myself. Here's. Here's a little. A little note card. That's it. You don't say, can I make pictures for you? You say, what do you do? And. And I did this. I've done this several times. And it's. It's very effective and so much more effective than sitting on Instagram waiting for the like button.

[A]

Okay, so now I'll tell you how I feel about Instagram. And maybe I did poison the water hole a little bit there, because I think you could tell I'm not a fan of doing it. And it's not to say that it can't work a little bit. I have seen there's a photographer in my neighborhood here that does a lot with Instagram, and they're getting business out of it, for sure. I think it's still the same business they would get if they were just communicating with the people in their neighborhood. The reason they're seeing their account is because they know them. It's like personal connections, and then it's going out from there. So do they pay for impressions? I don't know for sure. I should ask. I should ask if they do. But to me, the problem I have with it is just how much work it takes to put that stuff out on Instagram. The effort involved in making it so that people see your post like you have to post, like, every day. This is part of your job now is doing that. And the return seems far less to me, way less than other things that you could spend the same amount of time on. Absolutely. And be more effective in doing. And I think it goes with any of the digital media, the advertising and all of that. When you're placing ads, not only is it your time to go put it out there and kind of watch it and see what happened and how did it go. But it's money, too. You had to pay to get the ad out there. And so, yeah, I tried. It was an experiment for me. I wanted to see what happened if I invested in Instagram. So I spent a few weeks posting frequently posting a lot of photos that I had worked on. I got a lot of likes, I got some followers, I got no business out of it. There was not a person that contacted me for a photo shoot because of Instagram. I did have people that, you know, people around me. So I talked about, like, I'm not great at talking to other people around me anyway. That was the, like, it's easier for me to have that digital communication with them. So the people around me that already knew me a little bit and now they're like, oh, I didn't know you took photos. I, I didn't know you made pictures. So that allowed me to have those conversations on something and then I'm totally fine talking about like, oh, let me tell you about what I do with photos. I love to talk about that. That's great. That's why I have a podcast. And most of them didn't even know how to podcast either. So that would lead to that all of this kind of discussion would work great. But it wasn't necessarily because it was effective with like complete people that didn't know me at all. They still didn't even see it. They did not see my posts. Even if I had paid for it, they probably don't see it. I have a Facebook group that has over 10,000 people in it. And when I post, at most 200 people might see that post. Out of those 10,000, I can pay and get it so that people will see more people will see the post. But then all that means is they saw it. It doesn't mean they're going to do anything with it. I just see it as a massive, massive challenge where this digital media is pushed so heavily and the marketing aspects of it push so heavily. And I just, I think there's more effective approaches, especially for those that are kind of in the niche that I'm talking to right now, where this is not your full time job. You're doing this on the side. You want to make a little bit of money from it, but you like doing it. My recommendation is don't waste your time or money on the digital media stuff. What Levi's been walking through is far more effective for being able to accomplish that goal.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Now, having said all that, when I had radio ads, and I think the same thing with social media, people would tell me that they heard my ad on the radio. Okay. It was me speaking, like, I did the talking. I was like, if this is going to be me, it's going to be about, like, you're going to hear me. And the effective thing about it was that people who knew me got a reminder, rightly, that I did photography my Instagram posts.

[A]

They saw like, I didn't know you took photos.

[B]

Exactly. Well, and, and it was, it was always somebody like, everybody knows I take photos because I talk to everybody and then I can't shut up about it. So, but, but it was a, it was a reminder frequently that I take photos. And so then I am better at the top of mind. But it doesn't, it doesn't bring, it didn't bring me any new business. And I think I actually get better play posting infrequently on Instagram because then it says, hey, Levi hasn't posted in a while. Let's push him out there. And then I get a good bump. So every couple weeks I put a picture up and I get a good little bump from having been inactive rather than being so active that I have to post multiple times a day and absolutely wasted the mind. I mean, when you say, so why do you post on social media? The answer is because social media, okay. Like, that's the reason. And it doesn't, it's not actually that effective for what we mostly do. And do I really want people who are surfing Instagram all day to hire me to do pictures? Because then they're constantly comparing what I did to everybody else who's way better than me on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah, well, and that's, that's been my experience too. Well, I haven't had too many contact me. A few, there's been some that have contacted me to do photos. And you're right, that tends to not be the client that I'm interested in having. I don't do this full time. I get. I have the luxury of being able to pick the clients that I want to work with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I don't want to work with the person who's trying to lowball my prices and get the most out of me for without paying me much. And that seems to be the audience that saw the images are like, oh, that's super cool. Hey, I'll give you ten bucks to take my picture. Right?

[B]

Yeah, you need, you need to understand who your audience is. You should think to yourself, who has hired me in the past and who do I want to hire me? I want the mothers with teenagers at least to be my clients.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They have had a lifetime of spending money. They understand how things work. They're likely at a position in their lives where things are more stable for them and they have extra income.

[A]

Yeah. More disposable income to be Able to,

[B]

that's the word, disposable income. And they have, you know, they've got a senior now and they've got a sophomore and maybe a eighth grader or something. And so there's future for me there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they have, they have their likely secure in their community like they've been established in their community. And so when we photograph the daughter for senior pictures they're going to tell the other ladies about it. And it is like 80% women who hire photographers even for businesses I'm likely to be hired by a woman at the business and so I need to understand who does the hiring. And it's not 18 year old girls surfing Instagram. They may like when they, when their mom gets the referral from, from Jane they'll say we're going to go have Levi do your pictures and they'll check me out on Instagram and then they still don't really have a say in it. I don't know, I'm making that up. But, but it is, it is largely mature women who are hiring photographers and so think about what they're doing and when they're doing it and play to that, to their needs and to what, what they want. Jane is, is a 38 year old woman with a, with a job and three kids and a house in the neighborhood I want to work on. And at 3 o' clock in the afternoon she is probably thinking about going home or maybe she's already home because she works from home. She's thinking about what she's going to cook for dinner, she's thinking about going to the store to buy food, she's thinking about taking kids to football games. And so knowing like thinking through this thing I can, I can consider how I can approach her. On Saturday she's probably going to go to the home and garden show because she's got a home that's 20 years old that she bought when it was 10 years old and she's ready to update it. That's the kind of person I want people with disposable income who are established in this community that would be a good place for me to make impressions on folks. And so knowing who is actually hiring you is a really good exercise. So go through that and think about your like make a person, make up a person who, who is your client and draw her schedule and, and draw her interests and think about that a lot and ask about it like ask, ask the people who are like that person what would be a good way to reach you. Like I know you're not my client. I know you go see John, but how did John reach you? And they'll tell you because you're a nice, friendly person.

[A]

Okay. That kind of has a good transition into what I wanted to get to as well. Then potential clients, they contact you. Like, however they got to you. They're now saying, hey, I'd like to hire you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you start? What is it that you're doing from there? Because now this is your chance to turn that potential client to a paying client and your chance to, like, make a lasting enough impression that it's going to go past this one shoot that they're trying to arrange. Especially if it's that target audience that you just talked about. You're hoping that this is going to turn into. You're going to be their photographer for every event in their life, that they need photography to happen, which is a lot.

[B]

It is.

[A]

So what's your approach then? That first conversation, how do you handle that?

[B]

So they call me up and they say, I heard from Jane that you do pictures. Can we do family pictures with you? Yes, I'd love to. How many, you know, how many. Talk about the whole process. How many people are in your family? How old are you guys? What are you interested in? Be interested in her to help you close the deal. Let's say she's going with you now say, okay, we're going to do this. I recommend these three places. Like, you're in control of this situation. She's going to say, oh, my. I had a lady say, my friend has this awesome porch at her house, and I've just always thought it'd be such a great place for a picture. I got there, and it's like 30ft from the road. So if I'm going to get the whole family, I'm going to be standing in the middle of the road to photograph this family. I'm in control of where the picture is going to be. Here are some good options for you. And we could do it indoors. Like, I could use the. We could go to the university and use one of their buildings inside there. Because maybe I don't have a studio. We can use my studio. We can rent a studio. We can go to this park at this time of day. I like it because it's not a flat park. So when I photograph around, there's not a bunch of car windshields parked on the side of the road. It's got a little incline to it that puts the grass as the backdrop, not the cars. I like this area. And I like this thing. And which one sounds good to you? Excellent. That's a great place to photograph. Either at 9:00am in the morning, so maybe Saturday, or anytime after 4 to 7:00 o' clock this season we can do it there. And you've got five people. I think that's going to take us an hour, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less. I'm not charging you by the hour, so I'm not concerned about how long it's going to take. But do you have any hang ups? Do you have a volleyball game that night you need to go to? We need to know everything so that we're not surprised when we get there. Ask all the questions and say, is there anything else I can tell you about the shoot? Oh, what should we wear? Oh yes. Wear something that you're comfortable in. Wear the things that people tell you, you look cute. Or wear denim and khakis, whatever you want to wear if it's 1987. And so just communicate very openly and say, here's my cell number, I'm going to text you right now. And I'm also going to remind you a couple days before the shoot and then also the day of. And is text messaging a good way or should I phone you? I don't want to email, so I'm not even going to offer it and be very clear about what's happening and when. And the two days before email is going to save you so much time because someone's going to be like, ah, I forgot and we have a volleyball. We can't do it right. And if you wait till the day of and they don't show up, now you're upset and they're maybe embarrassed and now your relationship is over. So you can save your relationships with clear and frequent communication. Not too much. Don't, don't bugger. Hey, in two weeks we're doing that. In 10 days we're doing a picture. It's almost seven days until picture time. But think of it. I talk about Dennis a lot. This is something I learned from Skip Cohen. Dentists have it down, man. They send you a birthday card, they send you a, they'll call you the week before your, your appointment if, and now that we, we text. So they, they text me the day before and they text me the day of to remind me that I have an appointment. Because if, if I don't show up, they're losing money, they're, they're not being paid for that block of time and they have a hygienist sitting around Stuffing toothbrushes and bags. And that doesn't make anybody any money. So being very clear, and work it like a dentist, pay attention to what your dentist does and do those things, and you'll have more people show up and you'll have more people come back and you'll have more referrals. Like, dentists ask for referrals all the time, or they don't because they're so full already. Like, that's the dentist you want to go to is the dentist that doesn't have time for you because, you know they're good because their clients stick with them. And I want to be the same. The same kind of person. I want people to come back to me so frequently that I can't take new clients. That doesn't happen. But there's always time for more. But this kind of clear communication works really well. And if you're. If you're working with businesses, you need to work with one person. You need to not text mom and dad. You need to text mom. The person who's arranging people this week, I was photographing Bibhu Mohapatra, who is a fashion designer from India. He grew up in India. He works in New York. He went to school at my university. And so I've been photographing him all week in various situations and things. And myself and another journalist are there trying to do things together. So I do pictures, and he does an interview that he'll create a. A video about this whole thing from. And we had two people trying to arrange his schedule. One person was talking to me, One person was talking to Taylor. They kept overlapping half hours. They kept trying to take like, I was fighting hard to get an hour with this guy. And they kept trying to take half my time. And. And so two people communicating that way. And then they copied there his whole entourage on the email. And now we're getting all these responses back about Thursday morning. Is it 11 or is it 10:30? Does my husband need to be there? Am I good? Like, we should have just talked to one person. That one person should have talked to him and told, you know, just directed who should be there. And having too many people involved makes it a mess. And I didn't respond to the emails because it's gonna. So I had to phone everybody up anyway and coordinate on the phone and then write one finalizing email. This is what will happen. I've already spoken with everybody involved here. This is it. And we're not gonna bounce around losing email threads doing it that way. So try to find the Right. Person to communicate with and make. Like if you're photographing a senior, you need to know like a person in high school. It doesn't have to be a senior if they're the one that you're photographing. You need to know whether or not mom is coming and whether or not that person is driving themselves. And then, you know, send them text messages and make sure that they can communicate with you as well. And then after you shoot, do you have any questions about like follow ups right there.

[A]

Well, add one thing. As you talked about it, there was one thing I wanted to add to it, that's the locations.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So people, a lot of the photographers listening to me, like, okay, but I don't know where I should. I don't have the experience of like, here's the great spot at the park to be able to go do it. So how am I going to get that? And the way that that's worked for me and I don't tell me what you think Levi is. I just, I let the people that I was photographing choose locations initially because I didn't have a better option. Right. I didn't have another alternative to say, actually I think this would work better here. And that exposed me to a bunch of places in my area that are really good because people are like, well, we took pictures here with a different photographer before and for whatever reason they're not using them or they've seen people. Like we were at the park once and I saw these people taking photos there and it looked like a great spot. I'd like to try it. And now because I've done that, I do have like four or five go to locations that I know is going to work out really, really well. And I have samples of the photos that I get at those locations now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That I can, I can share with potential clients to be able to say, here's the kind of thing that we could, we'll probably be able to get when we go there at this location. And then they go, oh, that looks great. Yeah, let's do that.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. And like here's, here's some general tips for you too. Public buildings are awesome. The landscaping is always well taken care of. And it's public, you pay for it with your tax dollars. You can go there and make pictures. I love, I love schools, I love universities. They always have marvelous landscaping with lots of variety. You can have an urban setting, like classic old fashioned looking setting and nature trees and grass within 50 yards of each other. And so it's A very. And they're generally safe. There's not like roads cutting through everywhere. So the three year olds can go play over there in the tree while I'm photographing the 15 year old. And there's no big, like we're not concerned about people getting hurt. And then. Yeah. And as you say, pay attention to where other people shoot and then just go on like go photo walk and walk around and see what's a nice spot for you. And that way you end up with places that other people aren't as well.

[A]

Sure. I did have one experience where so this was someone who didn't know me at all. It was a referral because I had shot images for a friend of theirs for several years and they needed seniors done and didn't know anybody. So it was referral. So that was awesome that that connection worked.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

And the kid, the senior was an artist and he really, really wanted to have his pictures in front of some kind of artwork. Preferably like an urban graffiti sort of setting of some kind of. I have no idea where that kind of a setting was. That is not the normal thing. I don't drive around and look like, oh, that's a cool urban ghetto graffiti area. That would be good to take photos. So I was like, I have no idea where to go. And she said, that's okay, he has an idea of where to go. So then I was intrigued. I was like, okay, let's try it. I had never seen it. So she sent me this location and my wife and I scouted it out ahead of time so that we would know like, yeah, this will work. Or like you said, well, there's only like 4ft between buildings and I just won't have enough space to set anything up or you know, whatever it is you'd have to go and see is this going to work? And when I got there, I was amazed at this art. It was incredible, the art that was on these buildings. And there was plenty of room. We had to be there at the right time. So I was able to see because of our scout out of the location, what time it was. I used photopills to see when the sun would be right for that environment. And we arranged for the time and we showed up there. And they are some of my favorite senior photos I've ever taken. I'll put some examples in the show notes so that people can see what these look like. But that was like putting together a lot of the concepts we've talked about here. Relationship of someone. They didn't know me at all. And it wasn't because they saw anything on Instagram from me or Facebook from me or any of those social media things. They did go look at that after someone had recommended me so that now they can get an idea of the work and what's there. So I think it's still important to have a presence on the social media stuff, just not maybe being the focus, like, this is how I'm going to reach people. I just don't think it's nearly as effective. And then being able to figure out the location stuff, it was so fun. It's one of my best senior shoots because of how it all worked out. It was great.

[B]

That's awesome. That's awesome. And the cool kids right now are screaming into their headphones at work that, well, that's why we use Instagram, so we can find cool locations. Yeah, that's all right. You can.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Find cool locations on Instagram. In fact, if you find, if you find the Cool alley in Logan, Utah, the cool alley in Logan, Utah, you might wait in line to use it.

[A]

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, it was good. It was so much fun. It just makes me think of that as we, as we talked about how it all came together, that was super rewarding to me. That whole experience was just awesome. So much fun. Okay, one other thing I wanted to talk through and then we'll kind of wrap up here. Oh, go ahead, Levi.

[B]

Sorry, real quick. The same thing has to continue. So we talked about getting people to the shoot during the shoot.

[A]

That's very clear.

[B]

Directions. Yeah. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to start with individual pictures of everybody, which is the way I like to do it. Because then when the whole group is together, I've already built rapport with individuals and this is what we're going to do. We're going to do that. If the, if the four year old isn't cooperating, we'll try them again later. Don't stress about it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm really good at doing this. And I'll. I'll get everybody looking good. You don't have to, you don't have to hover and ruin my pictures.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then as I'm photographing, somebody tell them what to do. Say, look at that leaf on the ground. No, this leaf? Yeah, look right there. Because I'm pushing buttons on my camera and I don't need you wasting your smiles yet. Look up here. Look this way. Look at that tree. Look directly into my lens. Now push Your forehead toward me. All the things that you want them to do. Be very specific. They're already uncomfortable being in front of your camera, so be very specific. After the shoot, continue to be specific and communicate well. These pictures are going to take me two weeks before I can send them to you. They're going to take a week. I want you to come over and see them. I'm going to send you an online gallery. I'm going to. And you can share that with anybody you like. Those will be viewable resolution. Because I'm scared that you're going to steal my pictures and not pay me for it. Whatever. Whatever it is you want to do. We're not talking about that this time. But tell them what it's going to be and then send them a thank you card and ask for. And then, you know, a few months later, it would be appropriate to send a text and say, hey, I was wondering if you have any friends who have been asking about pictures. I'd love a referral. That's great. And then, you know, it's been. It's been a year since we made pictures. Here's a little note to remind you that I'd love to make pictures for you again. This is what your dentist does, and you keep going to him. Let's do the same thing. And just clearly communicating is going to save you so much trouble.

[A]

Yeah. I love the whole idea about providing specific instructions. It was one of the things that most changed. My family shoots is a very specific instruction at the beginning, and that was mom and dad. Your job is to look at the camera and smile.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Your job is not to corral your kids. Your job is not to make them smile. Your job is to look at the camera and smile. Yes. And I tell them, most of the time, the reason a shot doesn't work is because you are not looking at the camera.

[B]

Not the best picture of the kids is the one where dad's going, smile at the camera.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. So I said, this will go much faster and you'll have much better time. Your family will like this better if you'll focus on looking and smiling at the camera. And let me handle getting your kids looking and smiling at the camera. And they still forget. They still stray from it. But I'll just try to gently remind them it's okay. Like you said, I need to do better with this part. I'm really good at this. Let me handle it. Reminding them through it. But that instruction changed how my family portraits went and our shoots. The time of the shoot drastically Decreased because the parents were the one blowing it, not the kids. And. And that. Yeah, so. So that's.

[B]

Dad already doesn't want to be there, so if he sees that it's his fault that we're here longer, then he'll change his behavior real quick.

[A]

Right? Yes. No, that's exactly right. So that. That's a nugget. I know I've shared this a lot on the episode, on the podcast already, but it's worth repeating because it's that important of a direction to. To make sure that you share that with them. And even if it's individuals, it's the same thing. Like, just putting him at ease. I've had shoots where I didn't know really what I wanted to do with them either. And I think a lot of photographers would start out that way. Like, I don't know how to tell them how to pose or what to do. And the worst thing I think that you can do when you get there is say, so what kind of pose do you want? Or what do you think you want to do? Because now they're like, oh, no, I don't know how to do my job.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, no.

[A]

So even if you don't fake it, fake it. Look at other poses and. Or maybe bring some poses, like Instagram's there with all kinds of poses so that you have no shortage of resources to be able to go in and figure this out. And then you could even just show them the thing and be like, all right, I think we should try this pose. Let's. Let's try this out and see how it works. And if you like it, and you can even just show them on your phone that pose. And then it's easy for them to follow that. Like, okay, does this look right? And you can go from there and start building it until, like, you're experienced enough to be able to say, I know how to make people. I know how to pose people so that they look good.

[B]

Yeah. When we do shoots at the university, I did this last night. I have a sheet of paper with a whole bunch of example pictures on it, and I say, these are the kinds of things we're going to do. Let's start with this one. I'm going to give you directions. I'm going to give you a lot of directions, and I'm going to give them to you over and over again. It's not because you're not doing it well. It's because I just need you to do it again. And. And so be patient with me and let's go have some fun and we'll make some pictures and, and then let's do this picture and let's do this picture and look at the examples. It's a great way to work.

[A]

Yeah, I like it. The other thing I need to improve on is that thank you note stuff. I think that is going to be super, super valuable. It's another touch point with that client and you need as many of those you can so that they, you are their photographer. Like this wasn't a one time thing where you, you made pictures for them that they needed at that moment. But they're going to remember you. You took the time to remember them. They're gonna, that's gonna help them remember you. So that's.

[B]

And it really stands out these days, you know, and it doesn't need to be fancy. I've got, I've got thank you cards that I had printed at Bay Photo. I printed way too many of them and put my address on them. And now I like Sharpie out the addresses because they're like four addresses ago. But you can just get a thank you card that says thank you and go to current at the sale at the end of the season and order the leftovers. And it can just be, it doesn't have to have a photograph on it. You could put in your favorite. Like you could order from Costco and get a 15 cent print and drop it in there and send it to them. The thing is, for me personally, I found I'm like, yeah, that's a great idea. I'll have my own picture on there and I will drop in one of their pictures. All of these little things that make it maybe a little bit better, make it significantly harder for me to get it done. And so having a playing card that says thank you that's just sitting here on my desk right now, I can write on that, drop it in the box. The simpler the better for me. And if I had an assistant or something to help me manage getting all the pictures and stuff, that would maybe that would be okay and maybe it would last, make a better impression. But just a thank you note that isn't even on a thank you card. Write it on a post it and stick it to their front door. Maybe that's creepy. I don't know.

[A]

Could be, I don't know, maybe it's to make you stand out.

[B]

But an email is not. Don't even waste your time sending a thank you email. Sending a thank you text. Doesn't matter.

[A]

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I got to incorporate that into the workflow. That would be good thing for me to do. So, Levi, I love the tips that we've shared here and if these are tips that you can't remember all of them, instead of having to listen to the episode multiple times, I'm going to have shown that has all of the information that we have here in the show notes. So you can go check that out [e-mail] or just listen to it the

[B]

second time on 2x speed.

[A]

On 2x speed, yes. Or 3. Maybe you can sound like squirrels at that point. That'd be funny. But Levi, you also, I want to give you a chance to be able to ask for. You have a need for some help from listening.

[B]

Oh. Oh, I was, I didn't know you were actually going to let me. But yeah.

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

I'm looking for a photographer to help me out in Tooele, Utah, on, I think it's April, the end of April. It's on a Saturday afternoon.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I need some help with some university work there. It doesn't pay a lot of money, but if you'd like some experience and if you can use a flash off camera, I'd sure like to talk to you. Oh, one of your other listeners, Jacqueline Blackham, is she's doing like six shoots for me next month around the state. So it was fun to connect with her on Instagram and then she's been very helpful.

[A]

That's great. So happy to be able to help that. So yeah, if you're interested, then how do they contact you, Levi?

[B]

Oh, you can phone me up. You can find me at Utah State University USU Edu or you can find me on Instagram. That's fine too. Photo Levi on Instagram.

[A]

Photo Levi on Instagram. All right, perfect. All right, so let's close up the show here and yeah, of course I want to.

[B]

This is, this is the networking thing.

[A]

This is networking. That's right. That's right. I hope the listener can help you out. Let's, let's go over our doodads of the week this week. So I'm going to start off with. I just finished up my latest team sports photography stuff I love doing. That's so much fun to be able to photograph all those athletes and then make really cool pictures out of it. It's helped me tune my photography game too, because doing green screen, that takes some work. You got to really figure out what to do to make that work. Right. I have it down now where it's seamless and I Love it. It's so much fun. But there's a couple of plugins I use that make it possible for me to be able to do this and still make money at it. If you try to do it without this software, it's possible, but you're probably not going to make any money. No matter how much you charge for the event, the amount of time it takes to create the images like I want to create it wouldn't be cost effective at all. Here's the tools. They're all from Pixnub software. I've tried a few different types now that help with this, and it's been a bit since I've investigated it, but I found these, this, this software about three or four years ago and it's been so good there's been no reason to leave it. It's all been updated too, for the latest versions of Photoshop. They are all Photoshop plugins, so you do have to get out of Lightroom to use them. But I incorporate Lightroom and in fact I'm going to create a blog post that walks through exactly how I'm using these in the future. So you can watch out for that over at my other [e-mail] but these plugins, it's Easy Green Screen, EZ Team Builder and Sports Photo Automation all from the same software publisher. It's actually a single developer who's created them all and he does a fantastic job with them. Easy Green Screen makes it trivial as long as you've set up the lighting so that it's conducive for it. It does require that, but it takes away all of the green instantly.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

It's amazing at how it works. Not only does it take away green, but we mentioned earlier, Levi, you had that green grass that reflected on the shadows. Anywhere there's shadows on the subject, that's where the color will show up. His plugin does a fantastic job of correcting green shadows on images. It's beautiful and it makes it so that I can put literally 400 soccer photo images through the software in batch. It's Photoshop, but it does batch and it will extract the athletes with no hint of green around them.

[B]

That's amazing.

[A]

It's awesome. Then Easy Team Builder will take those extracted athletes that I took one at a time and it will organize them into a team image. So, you know, put by height, it will stack them so the shortest are in the front and then it goes to the tallest in the back and just line them all up. For me in a single Photoshop file that I can then use for team images and put the team in any background that I want.

[B]

Oh, that's amazing.

[A]

It's so cool. And then Sports Photo Automation does that very thing of putting the image into your template. You have a template, you have to name the layers a certain way, but then it will replace the text. So I have images I'm creating where it's a single athlete in the middle. It has the team photo kind of matte underneath them, and then there's text that changes. So the Sports Load Automation will change every athlete image, rotate the athlete images in the template, and then rotate the name, the number, the position, the year in school. And I can produce unique, really cool images of 400 athletes in, like four hours.

[B]

That sounds like a money maker, man.

[A]

And it is awesome. It is so, so good. So if you're interested in that, then. I already have an episode that kind of talks a little bit about the lighting setup to make it work, but I need to talk more about my workflow through these tools and how it is I put them back together so that it goes super, super fast. It's really cool. That's my doodad of the week. Levi, what do you have for us?

[B]

Well, I was going to say real quick, I've been reticent to go to Photoshop. I'm a lightroom guy, but lately I've been using Photoshop a lot more. I don't know if it's just the computers are fast. It just felt like such a hindrance to my workflow before. Maybe my computer is better now and it just launches faster. Maybe Photoshop's better, but I'm in Photoshop every day now instead of every month, and I'm less intimidated by it. So I'm very intrigued by those plugins.

[A]

I'll put a sample in the show notes, too, so people can kind of see what it is I'm talking about there.

[B]

Awesome. Oh, can I give you my. I'll give you my link to those home and garden show photos.

[A]

Sure, yeah. Let's do. Yeah. Great.

[B]

Ton of those.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Plateau ball from. From Platypod. The tripod head. I love this thing. I helped develop it, so I should. You know, if I do say so myself, it's pretty. It's pretty sweet. But I use it all the time. And if you. If you haven't heard of it, it's got a completely unique method of loosening and tightening the tension on the ball head with buttons instead of knobs. And it's it's remarkable how just like easy it is to use one handed and how good it is at holding the camera still. And then I also love that it pans on top of the ball head instead of below the ball head so you don't have to level your tripod to make a panorama. You can have your tripod sitting squampus on a hillside and just level the head because the ball's at the bottom and the pan is on top of the ball.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That doesn't make sense. Take a look at a picture and you'll see it. You'll see what it looks like.

[A]

Describe. Because it's really different from any ball head. It's totally unique.

[B]

Yeah, this button system is absolutely different. But I like it. I like it a whole lot. And so check that out. And then another thing is coming out from Platypod immediately after this podcast. I'm going to call it the Platypod Bruno, because we can't talk about it. So. But if you, if you haven't seen any Platypod products, you'll. You'll see this one on Kickstarter shortly after this podcast airs. So I think, I think it's cool and I think it's a really good tool and I'd recommend it.

[A]

Excellent.

[B]

Check it out.

[A]

I did. I backed the Platypal 2 on Kickstarter, which it's not a store, so I'll, you know, I'm recommending them. But you have to understand there's a, always a possibility, there's always a risk that something's not going to happen on Kickstarter.

[B]

You know, there is however, having like. So Larry is the, the inventor of the Platypus, the Platypod stuff. He's the most upright guy I know, right? And he is the most honest guy I know. If there was a problem, he would literally mortgage his house again in order to get you your. Like he. There would. There's zero chance of not getting either your product. If so, like, if the world ends, you'll get your money back from this guy. I guarantee, I guarantee it. I'll give you your money back. If you have a problem with Larry. I trust this guy so much. He is, he is the best person in the industry. Like, there's nothing I wouldn't, I wouldn't trust coming out of his mouth. So having said that, it's a Kickstarter.

[A]

Yeah, it's a Kickstarter. So. And I got my plate of all bet it's a month ago now at Least I've totally forgot. So I had this shoot with these athletes, and I struggled a little bit with my ball head to get it to be like, I move fast in these things, and it's not a landscape shot. This is. It's going from shoot to shoot. And anyway, I could have benefited. I just completely forgot I had that. And it would have been the perfect trial for me to see how well that works, and I bet it would have really helped me.

[B]

I love it for portraits because it's so easy to adjust everything with one hand. So either one hand is on the camera and the other is on the tripod on the ball head. Adjust it because people stand crooked. And so I adjust the camera to make them straight. And it's so fast to do that with this. With this ball head. So I love it.

[A]

Yeah. I just can't believe I forgot about it. So I got to put it in my bag now so that I remember I have that to go do it. I'm going to look out for the Kickstarter to see what they have coming up next when we can talk about

[B]

it when it's no longer the Platypod. Bruno. Right?

[A]

Excellent. All right, well, hey, Levi, thank you for joining with me today and talking about this. It was super fun.

[B]

Anytime.

[A]

I love talking.

[B]

I hope I don't come across, like, snarky. I don't mean to be a snarky critique or on a podcast. I am excited for everybody here to go and make more pictures and make more business. It's just so much fun to do both of those things.

[A]

It is. And I'm sure we'll get the haters who are going to say, like, hi, my whole business is founded on Instagram ads and Facebook ads. Great. If that's what you're doing, awesome.

[B]

Start a podcast and tell us about it.

[A]

Do it. Do it. If it works, do it and keep doing it. That's. That's the point. It's. But. But for people who are kind of struggling and not sure where to go, I. I think we offered some decent advice.

[B]

Anybody. Anybody who sends a thank you card afterward is going to see an improvement in their business.

[A]

I agree. I'm going to try it. Then I'll be able to talk about it on the. On the podcast. All right. I want to mention show notes, so. Well, I talked about the show notes, but over atmasterphotography podcast.com, that's the home for the show. You'll see show notes for this episode and a whole bunch of other episodes that we've Done. And there's so many tips. If you have questions about photography, then go over there and search and you'll probably find an episode on that topic. Our Facebook group is Master Photography Podcast. And yes, we still run the Facebook group. And yes, I still participate there even though I don't think it brings in a ton of business. I love being able to interact with listeners in that group. Like I mentioned when I post, very few of you see my posts. So if you're not in there and checking things out frequently, you're going to miss stuff. Go and check out that group and go join it. You do have to name a host on the show to join. It's my anti bot or anti. I want to make sure you're a listener. The point is to have listeners in there, not to have people who want to go and push stuff. You can name Levi or Jeff and I'll know you're a listener and we'll let you into the group. You can see my work [e-mail] and then my other podcast is Photo Taco Podcast. It's kind of a more technical, focused sort of podcast where I try to make it so that an average photographer can understand the technical aspects of photography. Like my wife is always saying to me, how's a normal person supposed to understand this stuff? So that's what I try to do is make it is meet that need.

[B]

Yeah, I always check over there before I update Lightroom.

[A]

There you go. There you go. Yeah, I have a good page over there that has whether or not Lightroom. We know there are issues with Lightroom or not. Okay, then there's Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Just personal links there. Levi, where can people find you?

[B]

Yeah, you can find me at USU Edu. I do most of the pictures there and Photo Levi on Instagram. Excellent. I'm not on there a lot, so send me a message and then be patient.

[A]

I totally understand that. Same for me. I'm way more active on Twitter than I am on on either of the other two, but.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. I've still got a million photography articles on Photo Focus.com as well, and I submit there still, too.

[A]

Excellent. Perfect. All right, well, thanks again, Levi, and thanks everyone for listening and we'll see you again soon.

[B]

Thank you,

[A]

Sam.