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- [00:05]
Rachel Johnson
Tortoise. It was a While back in October 2023, when Scarlet Pavlovich first contacted me.
- [00:20]
Scarlett Pavlovich
When I reached out to you, the fear that this maybe was a, you know, a one off kind of was a one off event. You just never know. Right.
- [00:35]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett had filed a police report in New Zealand alleging that Neil Gaiman had assaulted her, but felt that New Zealand's police were dragging their heels. So when she got in touch, it was in part because she felt she had nowhere else to go.
- [00:51]
Scarlett Pavlovich
And, you know, you know, I stepped over those guardrails and I walked down that trail. And believed in you and believed in Paul. And believed in Tortoise.
- [01:00]
Rachel Johnson
With Paul Caruana Galizia, then a reporter at Tortoise, now at the Financial Times. We spent months investigating Scarlett's allegations. Scarlet's account was of degrading, violent and rough sex that she says she never consented to. Her story was complicated and nuanced and she knew that. As time went on, we learnt just how complicated it was.
- [01:28]
Paul Caruana Galizia
The interesting thing is last night Scarlett shared her WhatsApp history with Neil. So chats, videos, photos, and the really unusual thing for a reporter is it allows us to see the same issue from very different angles.
- [01:51]
Scarlett Pavlovich
The messages are really hard for me to go through because of, you know, my delusion, you know, I'm so furious with myself.
- [01:59]
Rachel Johnson
She shared with us a long trail of affectionate and flirtatious messages between her and Neil Gaiman that appeared to verify his side of the story, that any sexual contact he had with Scarlet or any of the other women who spoke to us was consensual. Across the series, we heard the accounts of four more women, Kendra, Julia, Claire and Caroline.
- [02:26]
Caroline Walner
You guys break the story with Scarlet. And when I listened to that, it was absolutely my story with, you know, with, with different details but the same thing. The master, the, the coercion, the having no money and being incredibly vulnerable. All of it. It was just my story.
- [02:43]
Rachel Johnson
Again, this is Caroline Walner, an artist who lived on Neil Gaiman's estate in Woodstock in upstate New York. She had a loose deal that she and her family could live there in exchange for her and her husband doing errands and caretaking. But after her marriage broke down, she says she felt pressured into having sex with Gayman in return for him allowing her and her three teenage daughters to stay in the house. Eventually, she was ordered to leave. Following treatment for depression and post traumatic stress disorder, Caroline received a payment of $275,000 from Neil Gaiman along with a non disclosure Agreement which prohibited her from talking about gaming with members of her family, any friends or associates, or from taking any court action against him.
- [03:39]
Caroline Walner
I had to keep all this stuff secret and it was an incredibly unhealthy experience for me and I didn't really even know it, you know, because, I don't know, I was just trying to get past it and I couldn't because I hadn't spoken about it. Then your story comes out and then it was just this moment of clarity and I decided to do it and I called Paul and you know, and I was really hesitant at first.
- [04:05]
Rachel Johnson
Caroline disregards her NDA and speaks out for Scarlett. Hearing the accounts of the other women was healing.
- [04:15]
Scarlett Pavlovich
You don't know if when you walk through that trail, you're going to find another person. And what an experience it was to be in those woods and then to step into an open meadow full of wise women that understand. And now we hold each other and what an honour. It feels like a counter revolution against the isolation and alienation of abuse. Yeah, we've found great solace in each other then.
- [04:47]
Rachel Johnson
This January, New York magazine publishes a cover story entitled There Is no Safe how the best Selling fantasy author Neil Gaiman Hid the Darkest Parts of Himself For Decades. The article's built on tortoises reporting and also extends the number of women making allegations to nine, both on and off the record. The next day the author releases a statement on his website entitled Breaking the Silence.
- [05:19]
Neil Gaiman
Some of the horrible stories now being told simply never happened, while others have been so distorted from what actually took place that they bear no relationship to reality. I am prepared to take responsibility for any missteps I made. I am not willing to turn my back on the truth and I can't accept being described as someone I am not and cannot and will not admit to doing things I didn't do.
- [05:48]
Rachel Johnson
And there was a strenuous denial that any of the sex was unconsensual.
- [05:53]
Neil Gaiman
As I read through this latest collection of accounts, there are moments I half recognize and moments I don't. Descriptions of things that happened sitting beside things that emphatically did not happen. I'm far from a perfect person, but I have never engaged in non consensual sexual activity with anyone, ever. As I reflect on my past and as I re review everything that actually happened as opposed to what is being alleged, I don't accept there was any abuse.
- [06:30]
Rachel Johnson
Amanda Palmer also posts a much shorter statement on social media. She can't offer comment. She says she is first and foremost a parent and then just One day before the three year statute of limitations to file a case in the US is about to expire.
- [06:51]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Dated February 3, 2025 United States District Court, Western District of Wisconsin Scarlet files.
- [07:00]
Rachel Johnson
A civil lawsuit in three US States.
- [07:03]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Scarlet Pavlovich, Plaintiff against Neil Gaiman Amanda Palmer Defendants this claim arises out of defendant Neil Gaiman's sexual abusive plaintiff and his wife Amanda Palmer's role in procuring and presenting plaintiff to Gayman for such abuse.
- [07:21]
Rachel Johnson
What's immediately striking is that the filing includes allegations against Amanda Palmer as well as Neil Gaiman. It alleges that together they violated laws on human trafficking. And as well as complaints of assault, battery and inflicting emotional distress against Neil Gaiman, there's an accusation of negligence against Amanda Palmer. Of course, Scarlett's lawsuit is just one side in a legal case. It's not yet been heard or cross examined in court and neither Neil Gaiman nor Amanda Palmer have filed their defence. Nevertheless, it's a detailed and in places graphic document. Not necessarily because many new allegations have emerged from it, but because of what we can now report and what it means. I'm Rachel Johnson from Tortoise. This is the Master the allegations against Neil Gaiman. Episode 7 the Lawsuit Scarlett, I can't believe you're here.
- [08:32]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Same. Same.
- [08:35]
Rachel Johnson
After dozens of hours of online conversations and phone calls, I'm finally sitting opposite Scarlett in Tortoise's studio in London.
- [08:44]
Scarlett Pavlovich
It's always surprising who you hear from. Extended friends have reached out to me from years ago, you know, or people that I worked with years and years ago. And the support has been really, really emboldening.
- [08:58]
Rachel Johnson
What about your family?
- [09:00]
Scarlett Pavlovich
It's been a challenge because they don't understand what I'm going through and they don't have the vocabulary to understand what I'm going through. My family think that this is about publicity, which is extraordinary. And they don't seem to understand the danger that comes with speaking out as a woman about abuse and speaking out publicly with where you are and what you look like. And so, yeah, my family, it's difficult.
- [09:42]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett's now a student at St Andrews University in Scotland, reading History of art and a long way from home.
- [09:51]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Even when I'm alone in Scotland or, you know, chipping away at books and just knowing that there are people that get it, you know, there are women, you know, they really feel like families that understand so instinctively.
- [10:05]
Rachel Johnson
Chief among her supporters are Kendra and Caroline. I'm struck by the incredible bond between them.
- [10:12]
Caroline Walner
We're both like, we don't have any money we don't have any power. The only thing that we have is our courage, you know, our courage and our voices and that's what we're using.
- [10:21]
Rachel Johnson
They have, it seems, drawn strength from each other.
- [10:24]
Scarlett Pavlovich
I cannot tell you what an act of recovery that is. You know, this year is about continuing that.
- [10:32]
Rachel Johnson
What she means by this year is the lawsuit filed in three states against Neil Gaiman and Amanda Palmer. When we left your story back in, you know, July, Scarlett, it was really unfinished and you felt, as I remember, that you'd never had any accountability. Is this filing one way that you are now trying to get the accountability that you feel you, you've been denied.
- [11:05]
Scarlett Pavlovich
I think this is about how can, as a woman, how do you get justice? I think this is about, also about the journey from being a victim to a survivor. A lot of that involves being the adult in the room that maybe your younger version of yourself needed at that time.
- [11:26]
Rachel Johnson
When Scarlet met Amanda, she was 22 when she was allegedly first assaulted by Neil Gaiman. She was 23, she's now 26. But she says she won't let this go for the sake of any young people who might come after her.
- [11:43]
Scarlett Pavlovich
If you have the strength to be able to do it, I do think it's a responsibility.
- [11:49]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett has tried to get justice before. She reported allegations of abuse by Neil Gaiman to the police in New Zealand and was interviewed in January 2023. But the police felt Scarlett's messages and interactions with Neil Gaiman meant there wasn't a reasonable prospect of conviction. This time, Scarlett is using the civil courts.
- [12:12]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Gaiman has a decades long history of sexual misconduct consistent with the actions that will be described in the following paragraphs.
- [12:19]
Rachel Johnson
The Lawsuit is a 27 page document which painstakingly lays out allegation after allegation. Scarlett didn't want to discuss the allegations in detail. Her view is that the claim should stand on its own as a record of what happened to her. But she did read some parts of it out.
- [12:39]
Scarlett Pavlovich
This misconduct includes sexual contact with multiple women who have not consented to his actions. In cases where his victims submitted to sexual contact with gay men, his actions have often exceeded any consent that might have been granted.
- [12:55]
Rachel Johnson
That line, his actions have often exceeded any consent that might have been granted, acknowledges that grey area that we frequently referred to throughout this story, that if you're in a relationship with someone, what does consent for each and every sexual act look like? The lawsuit goes on.
- [13:17]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Since at least 2015, Palmer has been aware of Gaiman's pattern of sexual misconduct.
- [13:23]
Rachel Johnson
One thing the claim does, which our original reporting didn't, is accuse Amanda Palmer of complicity of enabling Neil Gaiman's behaviour towards Scarlet. In a statement to us, a spokesperson for Amanda Palmer said Amanda Palmer denies the allegations made against her by Scarlet Pavlovich. She first became aware of the sexual assault allegations against Mr. Gaiman from the Tortoise podcast. While Ms. Palmer finds these allegations disturbing, she will not comment further at this time. Scarlett is seeking at least $7 million in damages. That's about five and a half million pound.
- [14:11]
Paul Caruana Galizia
I think the. The main thing is this shift in focus onto Amanda.
- [14:18]
Rachel Johnson
I'm going through the lawsuit with Paul Caruana Galizia.
- [14:21]
Paul Caruana Galizia
There's a heading that says Palmer, as in Amanda Palmer targets Scarlett and makes very clear that Scarlett was brought into this whole story by Amanda Palmer in Auckland, New Zealand in 2020. It says, and we knew that. But the way it's written out in this lawsuit is to say this started with Amanda. Later on, it says Amanda aided and abetted Neil Gaiman's behavior. So Amanda goes from being a kind of almost background figure to a protagonist.
- [15:03]
Rachel Johnson
And a co defendant.
- [15:04]
Paul Caruana Galizia
That's right. It's filed against both of them. And I think that's significant. I think that's really significant, actually, because when we were working on the podcast, it was this kind of question. We were always asking, what role did she play? Did she know? How much did she know? I think it's become impossible to ignore her role.
- [15:28]
Rachel Johnson
At one point, the civil claim alleges that Amanda Palmer had told Neil Gaiman that Scarlett was vulnerable. It's something we reported on, that Scarlett said that Neil Gaiman had told her. Amanda told me I couldn't have you. It sounds there like Amanda Palmer is trying to keep the two separate to protect Scarlett. But the legal filing implies a different motive.
- [15:54]
Paul Caruana Galizia
Interestingly, Scarlett's lawsuit says that even if Amanda Palmer told Neil Gaiman, he couldn't have Scarlet. Saying that would have fueled Neil Gaiman's desire to have Scarlett as a sexual partner, regardless of Scarlet's desire or consent. And then, in fact, on page eight, we have Palmer, in other words, either knew or should have known that she was marking Scarlett as prey. In Gaiman's eyes.
- [16:28]
Scarlett Pavlovich
The job required her to care for the child at both Palmer and Gaiman's houses. Palmer and Gaiman promised that Scarlett would be paid for the work. But Palmer and Gaiman did not pay Scarlett for the work. She was, in effect, an economic hostage to Palmer and Gaiman.
- [16:44]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett's told us that some money Would was eventually transferred, but insists she wasn't paid by the couple until after she'd stopped working for them. Non payment is something that Caroline also accuses Neil Gaiman of.
- [16:59]
Caroline Walner
He didn't pay. He, he took away my living situation, he took away my work. You know, what he did to me was, you know, it was basically like prostitution. I mean, I don't know, it was like he was threatening me with eviction and making me give him blow jobs and I was terrified. And then when I stopped, he evicted me immediately.
- [17:26]
Rachel Johnson
Neil Gaiman's position is that the oral sex for rent arrangement is an outrageous and false claim. In the words of his account, their relationship was entirely consensual and she instigated sex with him. In addition, Neil Gaiman's position is that asking Caroline to leave the property was always a possibility as she'd been living there with her family rent free for the preceding six years. Caroline says she was dependent on Neil Gaiman for keeping a roof over her and her three daughters heads. She alleges that she was providing sexual services and domestic services for a number of weeks without any recompense at all. And the instability it caused made her vulnerable and unable to consent.
- [18:16]
Paul Caruana Galizia
I think the story really tested our understanding of consent and coercion. So there is a tendency for people to report on quite clear cut sexual misconduct stories like a clear cut case of assault or rape. When, when you have situations like the, the ones the women we spoke to described where, where the allegations of assault existed within these strange problematic relationships, it becomes very hard because you do have these, you do have this kind of evidence of consent. You know, you have people saying I miss you, I love you and so on.
- [19:09]
Rachel Johnson
There were multiple messages from Scarlett along these lines. There's one that reads, it was consensual. How many times do I have to fucking tell everyone? And another that says, I think you're a wonderful person and a friend. I would never me to you. I don't know where that came from. And I have told Amanda that even though it began questionably, eventually it was undoubtedly consensual and I enjoyed it.
- [19:36]
Paul Caruana Galizia
I began thinking differently about these issues that I, I remember thinking you can't expect someone to make a free choice under the conditions you described, whether dependent on the, the man in this case for housing, employment, all stability really Scarlett had in her life at that point.
- [20:00]
Rachel Johnson
The key question for us was consent freely given.
- [20:05]
Paul Caruana Galizia
He came back to us via his lawyers and said, what was I supposed to think? Look at all these messages they sent me.
- [20:14]
Rachel Johnson
But Even when such messages appear to show love and support, and when in this case, they also implied that consent was freely given. The there are still questions to answer about how a person who has power and wealth treats someone who is reliant on them for their housing and their job. Can there be reasonable belief in consent when the power imbalance is so stark? There's something else. In the legal filing.
- [20:43]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Some incidences took place in the presence of Gaiman and Palmer's child.
- [20:48]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett's claim details an allegation of sexual assault that she says took place in a hotel room in Auckland in New Zealand in February 2022, while Neil Gaiman's child played on an iPad nearby. Neil Gaiman has vehemently denied this version of events. His account is that on this day they cuddled fully clothed under the bedclothes and that his son was not exposed to any sexual act. His position overall is that he never had full penetrative sex with Scarlett. He has described her version of events as false and defamatory. I wanted to know what Scarlett's life had been like since she shared her story with us. Did having her story out there change anything? What has this cost you? What have you lost?
- [21:57]
Scarlett Pavlovich
I think it feels so cliche to say youth, doesn't it?
- [22:03]
Rachel Johnson
No.
- [22:03]
Scarlett Pavlovich
And yet. And yet I used to have a lot more trust in terms of other people and my day to day relationships and I think I've just, you know, naturally one wants to sort of clench up and so it's a constant kind of like act of surrender every day to remember to not seize up whenever I'm having a real conversation or, you know, there's a sense of intimacy I think that I had before with how I engage with the world. And the loss is definitely around the barriers that I have, that I have erected, you know, that are hard as.
- [22:42]
Rachel Johnson
Stone privacy for Scarlet. All the details are exposing. She gets online hate as well as support. And it's hard when you meet new people, especially when you're starting out at university. You're that Scarlet.
- [22:57]
Scarlett Pavlovich
That's hard to navigate knowing that they've probably read like some pretty grotesque stuff about what happened. Yeah.
- [23:06]
Rachel Johnson
And now she faces the prospect of it all being aired in a courtroom.
- [23:10]
Scarlett Pavlovich
This is terrifying because it's opening myself up to every which way of scrutiny and that's not because I haven't told the truth or been duplicitous. That's because it. The role of the law is not to really scrutinise him, it's really always to scrutinize me. Correct.
- [23:36]
Rachel Johnson
At times she seems strong enough for the ordeal ahead of her. At other times, less so.
- [23:42]
Scarlett Pavlovich
I'm grateful to be able to talk to you right now. It's still coloured by the most horrible thing and the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me and the thing that almost took my life more than a few times, you know, that continued to make me suicidal last year. And that doesn't leave as brave of a face as I can put on right now, today. And the exhaustion. I'm exhausted. I am so exhausted.
- [24:24]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett draws most of her strength and her stamina from the other women, including Kendra and Caroline.
- [24:31]
Caroline Walner
Scarlet, she's a queen. Just the courage and the tenacity and just of her staying with this. And I think that once you're. You hear all these stories from other women, like, I know Scarlet feels like this because I feel like this too, you know, that you have to do this, you know, like it's the only right thing to do.
- [24:52]
Rachel Johnson
And the right thing to do, say Caroline, Kendra and Scarlett, is to try and get some form of accountability. Some of the women have formed a WhatsApp group and a couple of months ago they got together in person.
- [25:07]
Scarlett Pavlovich
It was coming on Christmas Eve in Scotland and everyone had left St Andrews. And I got an email from mysterious benefactor and women who will not be named knew that I was having a really lonely, lonely December period at St Andrews because truly, it felt like I was the last student standing. And I had a ticket in my inbox.
- [25:33]
Rachel Johnson
Scarlett got on a plane and flew to the U.S. kendra picked me up.
- [25:38]
Scarlett Pavlovich
From the airport with her husband and we drove that night. It was Christmas Eve. We drove to a cabin in the woods and I met her parents. And we all. We all had a beautiful, wholesome Christmas. But Kendra and I just spent. It was like meeting a sister, Truly.
- [25:57]
Rachel Johnson
Well, you look alike, of course.
- [25:59]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Yes, we do. We do. And then a few days after a few days in the cabin, we drove. We drove to Athens and. And had our New Year's with Caroline and Michael Stipe.
- [26:14]
Rachel Johnson
Yes, that Michael Stipe, lead singer of R.E.M. and an old friend of Caroline Walner's.
- [26:20]
Caroline Walner
I was staying at his house over New Year's. I always do. I always spend New Year's with him. And Scarlett came and Kendra, and it was amazing. I mean, it was honestly like the best feeling in the world. We all had a bonfire and wrote things.
- [26:37]
Scarlett Pavlovich
We wrote resolutions for 2025 and threw them into the fire.
- [26:41]
Caroline Walner
The things we wanted the new Year to bring, the things we wanted to.
- [26:44]
Scarlett Pavlovich
Let go of mine was about reclamation and, you know, a real act of repair this year. I have to be a survivor. And I like that word, you know, I'm really interested in how you can alchemize, you know, when you're in such a state of subordination, disempowerment, you know, transforming that into stamina, truth, knowledge, power, and just standing up to bullies.
- [27:15]
Rachel Johnson
We approached Neil Gaiman directly and via his lawyers for his response to the allegations in the legal claim filed against him and Amanda Palmer. We received no reply. Thank you for listening. This episode was written and reported by me, Rachel Johnson, and by Katie Gunning, who is also the producer. Additional reporting was by Phoebe Davies. Sound design was by Dominic delargi. The executive producer for the SLO newscast is Matt Russell. The editor was Jasper Corbett.