← Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
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B
We can get our dicks harder.
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A
Bluechew wants men rock hard. They told me that's the mission. They will not stop until every man is bricked up like a brick house. Till every 10 is pitched, till every rod is raised. Discover your options@bluechew.com James Fox, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on, man.
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B
Thanks for having me on.
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A
You have your, your new documentary? The program, I believe.
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B
Yes, it drops. It dropped today. Dude, that's dropping right now.
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A
How about the timing? Dude, you couldn't have planned that better with the goddamn fucking.
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B
I literally had an Air Force colonel text me and he goes, so what's up with the promotion? You managed to get a full on alien invasion on the release of your film. How did you coordinate that?
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A
Hey, man, there's just larger forces at play. So that's all that is.
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B
Yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm, I'm. I welcome it. I mean, you know, within reason.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
So I don't want people to panic.
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A
Yeah, well, dude, here's. I'll. So, to be honest, I was watching the documentary last night and I was, I was just like on the way to a holiday party and I, I just, I got really stoned from a vape pen. I haven't been smoking like that and I was just like launched and I started watching your documentary and I got like, I started bugging out. I started thinking about just the vastness of the Cosmos and just kind of the, you know, the inevitability of there's got to be some other sort of consciousness or life form out there. And it's like, was bugging. I was like, with my wife and I was like, they turn it off. I'm freaking out right now.
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B
What point did you turn it off? When we got to that. The NASA conference or before?
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A
It was before that, but we were. I just started thinking about it because there was all, it was all these like, you know, there's these like Congress meetings and all these people and it was like the, the line that. I don't know if it was from that or someone said it, but it's like, why would these people put their credibility at risk for no reason?
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B
No, yeah, no, come on. There's a. There, there.
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A
Yeah. So it's like. And so, you know, just tell us a little bit about the documentary. How did you get into all that? And like, what did you. What kind of like launched you into identifying the UAPs now? Not UFOs?
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B
Yeah, well, yeah, so, yeah, UFOs, unidentified flying objects. And it went to UAP, unidentified aerial phenomenon. And then it, because they're coming in and out of the oceans as well, they changed it to Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena. That's where we're at right now.
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A
To me, it's like they're just making it harder and harder to say to obscure the truth. That's what I'm coming. It's like you, you un. A lot on alarm. I can't even say it. So I'm like, now I'm out of.
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B
The race, you know, and UFOs had a bit of baggage. There was always sort of that knee jerk reaction when you mentioned ufo. So I think they wanted to kind of, you know, steer away from that.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
Get into the UAP stuff. And it was really funny. I think it was today or it was last night. Senator Schumer, Senate Majority Leader Schumer is being like hammered in the press. I don't know if you've seen it yet or not. And the guy's like, you don't know what it is, therefore it's a uap. You wrote the legislation. Don't you remember? Like, he's like, well, we don't know what it is. They are, therefore it's in uap. But they want to blaze.
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A
When he wrote the legislation.
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B
They want to say, they want to say drones, because UAP has people freaking out, charged.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And it's so funny too because they're going, well, we have absolutely no idea what it is, but everyone's fine, everything's safe. There's nothing to worry about here. Sure.
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A
So there are just, like, tons of drones popping up, and everyone's freaking out because nobody knows whose they are.
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B
I initially, you know, on first look, I was like, oh, it sounds, you know, conventional because, you know, UAP demonstrated technology that's sort of light years advanced than anything we have. But then I started doing a little deeper, deeper dive, and I'm hearing reports that they're evading the military radar flir. They go dark. You know, they have a loiter time of hours and hours and hours. Then the coast guard reported being followed over the ocean. I mean, it just. Something weird is going on. I don't know exactly what it is or who's behind it, but people are scratching their heads.
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A
That would be crazy if it truly was, like, an alien consciousness. But this was their, like, mall kiosk of them, like, flying around holiday toys and then being like, check this out. Everyone's freaking.
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B
Watch, watch this. Freak out the humans.
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A
Look at him.
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B
Look at him run.
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A
So. So just take us through. You don't have to obviously give the whole documentary away, but it's like, how did you get into that? And, like, how, like, to what depth does this whole phenomenon go? Because, like, you were saying that when I grew up, it was just like, aliens. And you'd get a poster with black lights of an alien being, like, peace, man.
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B
Right.
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A
But yeah, the more you hear about it, like, they just came out of nowhere. Like, the government, I feel like a couple years ago was like, oh, by the way, aliens are probably real. And everyone was just like, what the fuck? What are you guys doing right that. Right now?
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B
Yeah, well, I mean, so how that came about, I'll back up a little bit and tell you how I got into it. And I had a father who was a journalist. He was a quadriplegic with Ms. And so at a very early age, I was traveling around the world with him because I was his legs. I was his chauffeur. I was his nurse, his secretary. We just traveled together. He was a mainstream journalist. We interviewed people like Stephen Hawking and race car legend Dan Gurney and did a lot of cool stuff together. And so I had a. A sneak preview into journalism pretty, pretty early on in my life through my dad. And then I had a high school buddy of mine that when we graduated, we were 18 and we flew to Europe and we bought a used car. Renee Harris. And we bought a used car, drove from London down to Portugal. We were really close, man. We were like brothers. And. And then we parted ways for like a year or two as things done, you know, he had different things going on, whatever. And then I, you know, reunited with him and he was suddenly into this whole UFO thing. And I was like, oh, God, Renee, man. Like, I remember thinking, I'm gonna have to cut my best friend loose. Like, this is really unfortunate, you know? And he was talking about Roswell and UFO crash and alien bodies. And I honestly thought he'd lost his mind. I mean, I really did.
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A
Yeah. What year Was this? Roughly?
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B
90. Probably 93.
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A
Yeah, maybe 94.
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B
90.
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A
You were looked at as crazy.
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B
Oh, absolutely. And so anyway, I was apprenticing at a video production company, and I went into work and I was telling my buddy Richard Van Sickle about it. And I had really looked up to. He was 10 years my senior and really professional, great guy. And I was like, oh, man. My really good friend is suddenly gone off on the deep end. He's into UFOs and aliens and spaceships had crashed in Roswell. And my buddy Richard looks at me and goes, you didn't know about Roswell? I was like, how would I know about Roswell? No, I don't know about Roswell. How would I know about Roswell? He goes, well, the government actually admitted that they did recover a fly. Really?
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A
He goes, yeah, check it out.
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B
Like, they actually admitted it. And then the very people that were involved in the COVID up came forward on camera before they died, saying it was original. The original press release was correct. So I was like, oh, my gosh. I started looking into it, went to a few conferences, met a few military guys. And I was like, God, maybe there's something going on here. And so I told my dad. I was like, you know, I was doing video production at the time, and I was doing PSAs and things of that sort. And I was like, I think I'm gonna do a documentary on UFOs. And my dad was like, oh, my God, please, son, don't do that. Like, there's. He literally said, it's a dead end street. There's nothing to it. You're wasting your life. Please. Not only did. He was begging me, he had all of my other members because I was born in England of the family writing me letters saying, your. Your dad is very concerned about you.
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A
Oh, you were getting like, English letters about it.
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B
Don't do it.
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A
I don't know. That'd be a tough. Just like a skull, like a scolding. Just like I'm reading Bertrand Russell's autobiography and there's a lot of, like, English letters. And they're. They're pretty. Yeah, they'll get you, man.
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B
Anyway, so.
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A
Stinging letter.
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B
Yeah. My grandmother used to call me a rapscallion. You hooligan, you Skyver. Breaking into the house and all the hours of the boarding.
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A
Yeah, she was your whole family.
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B
So my family's, please reconsider. Your dad's very concerned, you know, And I just was like, well, you know, I'm, of course, being a Taurus, I'm a bit stubborn. And I just went all in. And I think it took me about four years. And I. And I. And I was at the end of it, I was like, I'm never doing another UFO doc ever again. But I sold it to Discovery Channel, it aired on Learning Channel, and I kind of got the last laugh. And. And then I got invited to Russia. And because I got invited to Russia, which I ended up going in the late 90s and meeting with generals and cosmonaut Pavel Popovich. And then I got an invitation to meet with Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper, because I've been trying to get interviews with him on my first doc. And then all of a sudden I was like, well, I guess I'm doing another doc because I got all these amazing interviews and I went to Russia and stuff. And so I did another one and that one was called out of the Blue. And that took me five years. And I finished that and I said, never again. I remember my partner, who was in a fetal position crying, and his wife's like, you're killing my husband. Like, stop.
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A
What was wrong with him?
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B
We were pushing each other so hard, so hard to do a good doc, right? It's like you just get to the end and you're. I mean, I'd been there myself. I just. You're broken.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I was like, well, I guess the documentary's done. Because I didn't really feel like it was where it needed to be. But we were all out of steam. We were out of money. I pushed my partner to the brink of death and his wife was screaming at me like, you know, so I was like, all right. So then we sold that to NBC Universal and it aired as a two hour special on the Sci Fi Channel. And then three years later, I own the rights again. And I was like, I want to. I'm going to pick this back up and make it to the film I always wanted it to be. So I spent a couple more years on out of the Blue. And I released that as a director's cut. And in the process of that, I broke a big story with the governor of Arizona, Fife Simonton, who There's a very famous Phoenix Lights case that happened in February. Sorry, March 13, 1997. And the governor poo pooed at the time. And then 10 years later, I met up with him. It's like, why'd you poo poo it? You had one of your aides dressed up as an alien. He came and mocked the whole thing, and all your, you know, constituents were upset, and he admitted that he saw it too. So then that happened and exploded in the headlines.
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A
What did he see? Oh, he saw the lights.
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B
Oh, he saw a craft. He saw big, all connected, boomerang shape. He said it must have been a mile from wingtip to wing across because it was so big.
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A
Why did he. Why did he poo poo it, though?
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B
He said just. Well, he said that there was overwhelming fear, like people were just freaking out. He contacted the local Air Force, Luke Air Force Base. He contacted the Pentagon, and they all shrugged their shoulders, according to him, and said, we don't know what the hell that thing was.
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A
What.
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B
So anyway, I broke that story. And then I got. I got. I hope you don't mind, I'm giving you a longer version of this.
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A
I like it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So. So I wrote that story, and it catapulted me into the limelight. I mean, we were on all the talk shows. Larry King Live with the governor. And I thought, gosh, this would be a really good time to capitalize on this attention, because media coverage is very fleeting. And I. You know, it only happens. You're lucky if it happens once in a lifetime. So I was like, hey, let me capitalize on this and let me do an event at the National Press Club. And so I did with my friend Leslie Kane. And it was 2007, and we flew in 14 military and government officials from seven countries and held an event at the National Press Club. And. And I shot the whole thing on hd. And then I ended up making a movie about that, which I sold to A and E called I Know what I Saw. And it was a two hour History Channel special. So then I was just like, I'm done with UFOs. Like, I've just. I'm done.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I. One of the things I've learned is never say never, because I've said that so many times in the past. But then I stepped away from it for a little while. Excuse me. I did a film on the BP oil spill in 2010 and then has.
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A
That ever gotten cleaned up? Is that. Are the waters good now?
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B
From that I think. I don't know what they're gonna. If they're gonna realize the long term environmental impacts because they were pumping corrects at 5,000ft down into the oil, trying to keep it like from servicing because they get fined for all the surface oil.
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A
Oh really?
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B
They hide it with the correct set, which they'd never done sub C injection before. So they did that and just blanket.
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A
It down on the bottom.
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B
Basically they dumped more corrected into the Gulf ever before, more than they'd ever done anywhere. It was a huge lab test in the Gulf. Yeah. Oh yeah.
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A
I've been personally boycotting BP forever since that.
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B
So I got, I got. Okay. There's only two times where I've almost been killed. I've been threatened to be killed in all my filmmaking years. One of them was when I did the BP oil spill film. There was a fisherman, he was head of fisheries for a number of different states and he met with me secretly and he was giving me photographs of the fish impact that was having on these species from, from the. Correct. The oil, they had like cysts and boils and. Oh, just disgusting. He gave me these photographs and he goes, you reveal my identity, boy, I'm going to hunt you down and slit your throat. Do we have an understanding? I said, yes sir, we do. He wasn't kidding. He was like. He goes, because I run the fisheries, I'm shooting myself in the foot along with a lot of other people. But I can't in good conscience let the people eat this stuff not knowing what's going on. Like turn the big lab experiment. The other time I almost got shot in the face is when I was making Moment of Contact. I don't know if you ever saw that film. It's about a UFO crash in Brazil. I was there with my buddy Marco leal for like 12 years on and off and I made a film called Moment of Contact. It was released in 2022. Two, yeah, late 2022. And we tracked down a guy who'd been hiding for 26 years who allegedly was driving the car during the second capture of a live alien. I know it sounds nuts. I'm with you.
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A
Explain that. I don't know what you're talking about.
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B
There was a. It was a UFO crash that took place in 1996 in Virginia, Brazil. I had looked. I had been looking into it for 12 years. I didn't believe it when I first heard about it. In fact, I was making my first UFO documentary, my. Actually my second UFO documentary out of the blue, when I heard about the crash. It happened in 96. I was making it in like 99, 2000 when I started, I heard about it, but I was like, that's impossible. They don't have a UFO crash and live aliens walking through the town. No way. So I took 10 years before I even. Like almost 10 years before I would even. Actually, it was over 10 years before I would even look into it, and then ended up spending about 12 years. But in any case, a UFO was spotted in trouble. It was a cylindrical shape. Cylindrical shape. Object like a cigar. It was like a aluminum kind of shape. No wings, no visible means propulsion. It had, according to the witnesses that I interviewed, and they're all on camera, it had a gash in the back of it and had sort of a white vapor coming out the backside. And it was definitely in trouble because all the people who claimed to have seen it said it was just. It was struggling to stay in the air. And then it eventually crashed two days later in the town of Virginia, just a few miles away, People reported these strange creatures. And then there were two. According to the authorities and military people, that information that had leaked out and the researchers locally, two or three of the creatures were captured. And the second capture was involving a police officer by the name of Marco Shrez and the driver of that car, Ed. Oh, sorry. Lopes. Eric Lopes and Eric Cherez died within a couple of weeks of touching the creature. He manhandled it and took it to the local hospital. He got a weird infection and then died.
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A
Dude. Really?
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B
Yeah, it's true. Hey, do I take.
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A
No alien music.
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B
Sorry about that. So. So. So the only other living witness to that second capture was. Was the driver, Eric Lopes, who's also a police officer.
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A
And he was. So he was just driving the other guy apprehended?
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B
Yeah, he was actually on duty that night. And they were told him be on the lookout for some. Something strange, some real strange. They didn't say live aliens or anything like that. They'd just be on the lookout. We're looking for something. So he calls his buddy Marco, who was actually off that night, Marco Cheriz. And he's like, hey, I got this weird assignment tonight. Like, they're saying there's something weird, something weird on the loose or. I don't know. You want to come with me? So they team up. He jumps in the car. Off they go. They see it. It ran across the road in front of them slammed the brakes on Marco, jumps out of the car, grabs the thing, puts it in the back of the car, takes it to Human Humanitas Hospital.
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A
What'd they say it looked like?
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B
It was brown. You could look it up. Virginia. Creature it was. It had a big head, big red eyes. It had brown, oily skin. Frail, weak, struggling, suffering. Yeah, all the witnesses said. And then Marco Sharizi had this, like, oily, greasy. He was, like, rubbing his body down with rubbing alcohol afterwards. And then he got this infection. We interviewed the doctors that worked on him. He died, and they couldn't explain it. They were like they'd never seen anything like that bacteria ever. Somehow, his body just had no defense against it, and he died. So the only living witness to that incident, that particular capture, is Eric Lopes. So the driver. Yes. So I got in touch with the mayor. They actually interviewed the mayor of the town, this guy Verge. Verge. And. And he's like, hey, is there anything I can do to help you guys? I believe this happened. I want to get the story out. I think the world needs to know. I was like, yeah, there's something you could do. Could you help me locate this guy, Eric lopes? He's been MIA for 26 years, and he was apparently driving the car. So we go to his house. Really spooky, right? The guy's off the beaten path. Get to his house, and. Oh, you got. Yeah, that's the creature. That's it.
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A
Jesus, man.
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B
Yep, that's it.
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A
Oh, fuck.
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B
Yeah. That was witnessed in broad daylight by three girls. Valkyria, Liliani and Katya. Two of them are sisters. Broad daylight. They got within 10ft of that creature in broad daylight.
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A
Damn.
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B
Yeah, it was crazy. So anyway, we get to Eric Lope's house, and he. I don't speak Portuguese, but he was, like, apparently telling everyone, you know, get the hell out of there or he's gonna start spraying bullets.
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A
What?
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B
And he said it, like, three or four times. And then I looked over at the guy, the translator, and he looked at me, and he was just like this. Eric Lopes was looking out the window right above me, and I was looking at his eyes, going, God, that guy's seen something. I don't know, man. He had looked like he was so burdened with. With something. You see it in his eyes. I'd never. I remember I never looked into someone's eyes that had that profound like. Like he was just burdened with something, really.
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A
Did he look, like, afraid or. He just looked kind of, like, just dizzy.
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B
Looked like he'd been shouldering something so profound, so deep, so. So deeply, profoundly disturbing, and that he couldn't share it with anybody.
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A
That's what it looked like, man.
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B
But it was confused. But anyway, that was a. That was a second time only. Yeah, two times where I actually was.
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A
Like, threatened to be shot. Okay.
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B
Wow.
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A
Okay.
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B
Yeah. Threatened to be shot.
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A
That's great. So you didn't even get to talk to the guy? He wouldn't talk.
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B
Well, he. He funny, and it's really funny, actually, because he said. And you could see it in the movie when we rolled up. He's like, if you're here to talk about the E.T. eric won't talk. And he referred to himself in the third person, which is weird. And then it was like, eric's not here. And then it's like, I'm gonna start shooting right now, bullets out of here. And I kept asking. I didn't know what he was saying. So I kept trying to get a question in, like, to my translator. And the translator looking at me like, just chill, you know? And then finally, he looked at me like, it's time to go. Like this. That look. You don't need to speak any language to get that look. It was like, we're leaving now, period. And I was like, shit, what's going on? Anyway, so, yeah, that was. That was.
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A
What do you think happened to him? You think he got, like, inhabited or.
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B
Well, just imagine for a moment if he really was the driver that was involved in the capture of a live alien. Okay. I'm not saying believe it or don't believe it, but if it did happen and then your best friend dies, and now the family and the world wants to know what happened. And you can't talk because your life has been threatened. Right? So you have to shoulder that burden for 26 years. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
So if it happened, you can imagine how disturbing that was. You know, he's military intelligence, so, you know, he's armed to the teeth, I'm sure. And I would talk to some other fellow Brazilian UFO researchers. Uber, Rodriguez, this guy Pacacini. And he was like, oh, yeah. Back in 26 years ago, we wouldn't go near globes. I was like, why not? He goes, everybody knew that guy was packing. He was going to open fire. I was like, well, now you guys tell me. Jesus Christ. I went to the guy's house. I probably almost got shot in the face.
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A
Like, that would have sucked so bad.
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B
That would have been a real bummer.
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A
Oh, I would have sucked.
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B
Yeah. So anyway, so coming off the Heels of that, I, you know, because I did. I did a film called the Phenomenon, right, Which covers the phenomenon from the 40s up to relatively modern day 2017. 2020, whatever.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And then, then I. Naturally, the natural progression would have been to go on from the Phenomenon to the program, which is out now. But I had unfinished business with this alleged UFO crash case. And so I went back to Brazil like a fifth time and I filmed Moment of Contact, right? And at the very end of it all, and I totally believed it. In fact, I remember taking one of the audio guys, he lived in Rio de Janeiro, and this guy Ghee, and he goes, oh, yeah, we heard about that story back 26 years ago. Nobody believes it. It's like, you know, kind of like, what, Roswell, you know?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Then I took him on all the shoots and he was like, holy shit, this happened, you know? And I said, yeah, I wouldn't waste 12 years of my time if I didn't.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So at the last week or so of filming in Brazil, a flight control officer with the Brazilian military, because flight control, fire department, police, they're all connected to the military, he came forward and said, yeah, I saw the United States Air Force plane come in Atlantic and penis. And then said to what you say what? So it was. It was confirmed. The United States Air Force was involved with this UFO crash case, okay. That the United States Air Force flew in to a place called Campinas. And then from Camp. I know, right? I know. Bargina and Campinas really doesn't get any better than that. Can you believe it? I know. Sorry, I thought.
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A
My mind was just making it true.
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B
I thought you might have known about this case.
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A
Oh, Camp Penis.
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B
Joe Rogan talked about. Yeah, I wish I knew. I know, I know.
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A
So there's an alien invasion.
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B
Well, so.
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A
So they probably thought it was the best place ever. They're like, if we got to go to Camp Pen.
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B
Know you can't make this stuff up. I know.
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A
Okay.
- [23:33]
B
So. So the last time I was there, after 12 years of filming on and off, a. A guy comes forward and he was with flight control with the Brazilian government military. And he's like, yeah, I was on duty that night and I saw. This is January 20, 1996, and I saw USAF come in and I was like, USAF? What's. Oh, United States Air Force. USAF flight come in and didn't have authorization to land. So he told some folks like, I can't let this guy land. You need authorization. And then a higher up stepped in the room and said, let him Land. So he goes, yeah, this thing landed. Then two helicopters, one or two helicopters were unloaded and they were flown to Virginia. They picked up some stuff, came back to the Campinas, loaded it on the plane in the United States Air Force. Plane back to the United States. Yeah. So that was when I became aware of the fact that, wow, there probably is a crash retrieval program going on. So when I started doing, when I started doing the program, the film that's out now, it was almost personal for me. Right. Because I, I had no idea. Like I was on Joe Rogan talking about Moment of Contact in April of 2023. Well, in July of 2023, the highest level intel officer, David Grush, testified under oath to a, to a bipartisan group of lawmakers that there is a crash retrieval program. And he found it.
- [24:56]
A
Damn.
- [24:57]
B
Yeah. So that's so. So. So the program kind of covers this unprecedented push for transparency on what the intel agencies really know about the phenomenon. Right.
- [25:09]
A
What kick that off? I was curious about that. Like, if this is my thing, if things are really top secret, you have these giant kind of like, you know, mechanisms of power controlling and hiding things. I do find it funny that they're like, you swear you're telling the truth and they're like, dad, you fucking got me, dude. Yes, I pinky promise. It's a weird, it's a weird system. We still do.
- [25:27]
B
Yeah.
- [25:27]
A
Well, it's like, you better tell the truth and like, you got me.
- [25:30]
B
So. So people think that the government suddenly had an epiphany and decided to be more transparent on the UFO phenomenon. That's not what happened.
- [25:37]
A
Yeah, I doubt that.
- [25:38]
B
Yeah, right. What happened was there were a couple of intel insiders, Christopher Mellon being one of them, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, along with Lou Elizondo and a handful of others, just small handful that protested because of excessive secrecy. They found a loophole and walked some evidence from the Pentagon out on the front page of the New York Times. And that happened in December of 2017. So they can't put the genie back in the bottle, Right? Yeah. So more people keep coming forward now. More people coming forward. And then Congress started getting wind. They were having behind the behind doors meetings with some of these witnesses and they were like, ooh, there's a. There, there. Wow. Then they had the first congressional hearing by a guy named Andre Carson, Congressman Andre Carson, that was 2022. That had a hint of a crash retrieval program that was revealed through a memo, the Davis Wilson memo. Then they had congressional hearings in July of 2023. And that's when it was all out. David Grush said, yeah, we have a crash retrieval program. And then recently, just a month ago, we had more congressional hearings, which I attended. And Lou Elizondo, who ran a tip, or was one of the members on a tip, he confessed under oath that there is a crash retrieval program.
- [26:58]
A
So. So they have been going around and scooping these things up. So there's things. So what do you say to people who are like, it's just super advanced military technology they're hiding from everybody?
- [27:06]
B
Well, if that's the case, that would be even bigger story, because somebody has kept it secret for over 80 years.
- [27:12]
A
Wow.
- [27:12]
B
Okay, that's cool.
- [27:13]
A
Yeah, no, I hear you.
- [27:14]
B
These things exhibit a technology that's just so beyond anything that we have in our arsenal.
- [27:19]
A
And what are the examples of, like, the technology that we can't really wrap our heads around?
- [27:23]
B
So you have objects that can hover without displaying any kind of visible means. Propulsion. They can accelerate from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye. Right angle turns at high speeds. No sonic boom, no air disturbance, Very little noise. Sometimes you'll hear a slight buzzing or humming noise, but that's it. Within certain proximity, some of the witnesses. And they fly rings around our fastest jets. I mean, like, they make a mockery of our fastest jets. I mean, you can just talk to David fravor about that. 2003, off the coast of San Diego. So. And I think the big secret is they don't know what it is. I mean, they know it's engineered. Right. They know it's technological. But there's a psychic component to it as well. So it would be very difficult for any governing body to come forward and say, hey, ladies and gentlemen, my fellow Americans. It has been brought to our attention that there are structured craft of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity. They fly rings around our fastest jets. We don't know who they are, where they come from, and if they turn out to be hostile, we have no visible means of defense against them. Thank you and good night.
- [28:25]
A
Yeah, true. That would. Everyone would be like, fuck this.
- [28:27]
B
Everyone would be like, no. That's why right now, they don't know what these drones are. They're calling them drones because drones is a little less scary than uap, right? So they're calling them drones, but they're saying, you have nothing to fear. And yet we don't know what the hell they are. So that's a little strange, because how could you say what something Isn't when you don't know what it is.
- [28:44]
A
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- [33:22]
B
Yeah, it does threaten.
- [33:23]
A
It does threaten. I mean, I feel kind of weird. Like, what do you think the. I have two questions. What's the telepathic element you're talking about?
- [33:31]
B
I'll give you an example. And there's examples like this that go on for. For decades, but. So David Fravor, the encounter that took place, it's now commonly referred to as the Nimitz case. It was off the coast of San Diego and 2003. And he chased this Tic Tac looking object. And it was. It had no wings, no propulsion, it. It could hover. It was hovering right over the ocean. He could see it down below. There was two military jets that saw it, got four people that got visual. Then it picked up on the radar and they chased after it. And as they were close, it. So the plane, the object was down on the. By the, like just above the ocean surface. And it was darting around kind of like this. And Fravor said he was going to get a closer look at it at whatever altitude he was. So he started spiraling down to get a look, a closer look at it. And the Tic Tac object starts spiraling up. So it was mimicking his mo. His movement, but backwards. So he's spiraling down, it's spiraling up, and then he decides to kind of do a maneuver and intercept it, like cut it off. He gets right at it. He goes, this is about a quarter of a mile. And he goes, that sounds kind of far away or half a mile, whatever it is. But in flight, it's very close.
- [34:42]
A
Yeah.
- [34:42]
B
No rivets, no seams. Like, what is this thing? And then he said it took off. Like, you just impossible. Like this. It performed. It did something that's just not even possible. And then it ended up at their. It's a strategic Latin launch. That's. That's like predetermined before. I'm trying to think the technical name they use for that. But in any case, it just showed up right at that exact tactical spot at their Latin launch. It's like. And he said he had like the hair on the back of his neck stand up straight because that was like, it basically like, I'm. I'm a. I'm five steps ahead of you guys. Like, yeah, I even know where your Latin man. Yeah, so. And again, there's. I could give you example after example, for sure. Yeah, that's Just one. That's pretty crazy. Yeah.
- [35:26]
A
So what do you think are like the, the implications on like day to day kind of like human thinking and affairs say it's just like it's out. It's proven without, you know, any sort of doubt or whatever. It's proven that there, there is like a. Life forms that just dwarf our kind of technology and understanding of the universe. What do you think that does to human beings that's a good. Or you think they'll like spin people out or maybe make us be a little nicer knowing we have like other.
- [35:49]
B
Yeah.
- [35:49]
A
Watching us.
- [35:50]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think I always felt that it would be a little scary. Right. But that's okay. I mean, you know, reality is reality. It's been going on for a long time. It doesn't seem to be here to, to hurt us because others might argue with me on that point, but for the most part seems to be a fairly benign. I mean, there are other aspects of the phenomenon that one might argue is a little scary, but whatever. That's a whole nother. Well, I would argue.
- [36:13]
A
I would argue. Sorry, I don't mean to cut you.
- [36:16]
B
Please.
- [36:16]
A
I would argue if they're that advanced, there's a huge chance they're not kind of like predacious and like. You know what I mean? Because it'd be hard to be that advanced while you're still dealing with kind of like those more animal aggressive, like aggressive kind of instincts.
- [36:30]
B
Yeah.
- [36:30]
A
You think it would like, you would implode. Like human beings, like there's. If we don't kind of get our kind of aggressive instincts under control, we might. Exactly. We might like blow ourselves.
- [36:37]
B
Oh yeah, yeah. No, it's really funny actually, to your point. I interviewed this guy, Robert Salas, who was a launch control officer during the height of the Cold War. And I think he was in charge of Minuteman missiles. But there were nuclear arms and not sure if it was Minot or. Anyways, one of these bases housing nuclear weapons and objects were seen over the base, documented over the base. And then all of their vast majority of nuclear weapons went into a no go situation. They were just shut off and they're all independently controlled. I report about it in my film the Phenomenon and I talked to Salas about this and it was funny. I could see why he was a launch control officer because he's got this demeanor where he's just like super mellow and calm and just measured and just doesn't, you know, he's like. Well, James, the message I got from that is Almost like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Maybe you shouldn't be playing with these things. Yeah. And I was like, wow. Never thought of it that way.
- [37:34]
A
I never heard of that. So they all just deactivated.
- [37:36]
B
Yeah. Oh, there's 50 cases in the. My film, the Phenomenon. I. I literally did a deep dive in there with the help of this guy, Robert Hastings, who wrote the book on it. And, yeah, you'll hear officer after officer after officer about incursions over military bases. They seem to be like. Like, some people would put it like a. Like a. Like a moth to a flame. Like, anytime there's nukes around, the phenomenon kind of just comes around. Check it out. Yeah.
- [38:02]
A
Wow.
- [38:03]
B
Damn.
- [38:04]
A
That's crazy.
- [38:04]
B
Yeah. Senator Harry Reid, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid gave me an interview. I think it was, like, 2019. And he was the one that started this. One of the key people that started this UFO investigation. Aatip, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. Before that, it was all SAP. But in any case, I asked him, and it went on for 10 years. It was never meant to go public, but again, people had protested from the inside from excessive secrecy and walked some evidence out of the Pentagon onto the front page of the New York Times. And it went on for 10 years. It was found out in, like, 27. At the end of 2017. It started around 20. Sorry, 2008. 2007, something like that. And I said, what was some of the more astonishing aspects of the phenomenon that you learned during that tenured Pentagon investigation? And he goes, right away, just like that, he goes, they're interested in our nukes. And I was like, oh, whoa. I'd heard about that a little bit. So we did a whole segment on it within the phenomenon of. Yeah, wow.
- [39:04]
A
That's pretty crazy.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah. And there are a lot of incursions going on, military bases all over the place still. So I don't know. I think it's a far more complex issue than one might, you know, gather.
- [39:16]
A
Yeah, true.
- [39:17]
B
It doesn't have, like, one easy explanation. I. I've been doing this 30 years, and I don't know what the hell is going on.
- [39:22]
A
Yeah, it's one of those things that.
- [39:23]
B
I wish I did.
- [39:24]
A
It kind of dwarfs the perceived power of governments where you're like, you know, the United States, where, you know, we have all these missiles or like, the, you know, cutting edge of technology, then you see something that's so much more advanced if, you know, if it's really buzzing around, kind of like it makes the government less authoritative, almost. So you're kind of like, all right, dude.
- [39:41]
B
Like, I thought it would have a unifying effect on all of humanity, quite honestly. I mean, there's an outside force. I mean, Reagan had talked about it, but he used more of his threat. But. But if you have something that's. I think it would unify us.
- [39:53]
A
Yeah.
- [39:54]
B
Excuse me. I remember interviewing Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell, and he was Apollo 14, sixth man to walk on the moon. And he said on the way to the moon, he was so caught up in all the data and he might as well have been assimilated. But coming back, he got to kind of really just look at the Earth and look at what he. And really feel what he was doing. He was hurtling through this little tin can, through the vastness of space and darkness. And he goes, you don't know dark until you've been into space. Like, it's just. It's a vacuum out there. And he goes, I looked at Earth and I watched it slowly getting bigger and bigger and all those invisible lines. I didn't see any territories. And I was imagining all the wars that were taking place and all this. And he really felt. Not just saw, but felt like humankind as one. One race, one. You know what I mean, one people kind of thing. And I think that this reality will help accelerate that.
- [40:48]
A
Yeah.
- [40:48]
B
In my opinion, I. I think it's a good thing.
- [40:50]
A
But you get a lot of people who start being like, they're trying to use this to start up a new world government and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, I don't think they.
- [40:56]
B
Have control of it. I really don't.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah, I. I don't. Yeah, I would, I would argue someone.
- [40:59]
B
Who'S investigated all around the world for 30 years, like, there's no way. I don't think that we're. No, I think that they're. They're doing what they're doing. True.
- [41:06]
A
And it's one of those things where it's like, if they're say. Just say for, you know, argument's sake, say there were some just human beings who are so powerful, they were engineering these kind of crafts. It's like, well, guess what? They're going to do whatever they want, you know, whatever. But yeah, I, I think it's awesome, man. I think it's pretty cool. And I think it is a. I don't know. I think it's good for people to have kind of shocks to their system. And I think the UAP kind of like reality life forms. There's a good shock to the System, in a way.
- [41:31]
B
I mean, if you look at the program, you'll see, refreshingly, you'll see a bipartisan effort. You'll see Democrats and Republicans working together, being civil and, like, really trying to get to the bottom of it. And I love that.
- [41:45]
A
Yeah.
- [41:45]
B
About that. This, it's. It. It's uniting Congress and our government and our elected officials. No question about it. You're looking at AOC with Tim Burchett being really kind to each other and calling each other colleagues and. And it's very. Yeah, I love. I love that. I think we need more of it. Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:00]
A
Because you can get so into your, like, hometown versus a country. You know, you're like ants on a hill. You're like, this is this huge place. Then. Yeah. You get a cosmic perspective and you're like, yeah, that's right. Nothing.
- [42:09]
B
They should send all politicians into space.
- [42:11]
A
They should that be awesome. Or just give them a ton of lsd.
- [42:15]
B
There you go. Either. Or is it possible that this is an. It's us, but an ancient civilization? Like, if Elon Musk or Bill Gates, if something happened now, they was going to their bunkers and they have huge bunkers, and their civilization would grow for thousands of years. And everybody else on top, we decelerate and we become back to cavemen. And now 12,000 years later, they're finally coming to the surface again, but it's us, just a more advanced civilization that was able to keep going. I've heard that theory. And one of the things that I'm coming to terms with is that all options are on the table as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I've heard interdimensional. I've heard future coming back from the future. I've heard interplanetary. I've heard they're right here all the. All along down in our oceans and in specific locations around the world. And I can't say no to any of them. I have to keep all options on the table. And I at one point jokingly says, I'm a huge universe. I said, maybe it's all the above. Maybe it's not just one race. Maybe it's a number of different things. It's one of the reasons why I showed some incredible Hubble telescope photography from space and galaxies and. And one photograph in particular from NASA is they look like almost stars. There's so many of them. But then they. You realize they're not stars. You're looking at galaxies, and each one of those galaxies has, like 400 billion stars. Right. And it's like. And you're looking at all these pinpoints of light, and those are all galaxies and you're thinking, you got to be kidding me. That's just incomprehensibly. Yeah, right. It's like. And we're just like, there's more stars. There's 10,000 times more great stars. And there are grains of sand on the. On all the beaches in the world. It's like 10,000 times, so you can't.
- [44:13]
A
Even wrap your head.
- [44:14]
B
It's getting bigger by the day. And now they're talking about multiverses and stuff. It's like God only knows, man. Like, yeah, sometimes it's like my mind hurts thinking about it. Like, I just. I don't know, man. Sometimes when I think about the vastness and like how it keeps going on and if it doesn't last, if it doesn't, if it's not infinite, then where does it stop?
- [44:32]
A
This is the thing that fucks me up. It has to be infinite. Because if it were to stop, it could only stop by something border. There'd have to be something on the other edge of the border. So it has to be by definition infinite.
- [44:42]
B
So insane.
- [44:43]
A
The universe really rule is like ruled by like dream logic. That's the only place a thing can be infinite and non infinite is in a dream. Don't get me started.
- [44:51]
B
I saw, I was freaking out. It blows my mind, seriously. I'm just like.
- [44:56]
A
But you know what I'm talking about though. It has to be infinite because if it were finite, there'd be a bordering edge and there'd have to be some physical thing on. You can't have something that borders, that doesn't have another side of it. So it can't be bored. It has to be infinite.
- [45:08]
B
Otherwise I remember one time thinking to myself, like, I have no idea why I'm here. What the hell's going on. I do that. I don't think we're here to hate each other. Yeah, that does. That's one thing I feel like, you know, Come on.
- [45:21]
A
Yeah, it doesn't feel good in your body. That's what I've been doing. It's like people say like, you know, oh, you know, this is. This is crazy. It's all airy fairy talk. It's like, well, dude, if you like just assume where these kind of like struggling animals with nothing other than animal instincts and our whole sense of consciousness is like, you know, just wafting off these. It's just like this nonsense that's wafting off our instincts. It's like, to take that worldview hurt. It literally hurts your body.
- [45:46]
B
Yeah.
- [45:46]
A
So it's like, yeah, I agree with you. But I think if you kind of open yourself up to, like, the kind of cosmic scale, becoming basically a cosmic patriot rather than your country or, well, you know, people will be mad at me for that, like, but you can like your country, but also be like, I'm also a citizen of the universe. Opening yourself up to that scale, I feels good.
- [46:02]
B
I remember asking Edgar Mitchell was really funny because we're in the middle talking about UFOs, and he, like, kind of grew up in Roswell. Excuse me, the surrounding areas. And so he knew all the ranchers from back in the late 40s, early 50s, actually, even earlier than that. And I was like, God, I'm so sorry to ask this question of you, because I'm sure you get asked this all the time. What was it like to go to the moon? You know, and he's like, well, James, if you'd like, I'll tell you. You know, And. And so I got such a detailed description of what it was like right down to when they landed on the lunar surface. They were hearing these macro mete, like meteorites pelting the skin of their craft. And they've been up basically for three days. And NASA's like, you guys need to go to sleep. And they were like, oh, no, man, I want to. Which they tried to go to sleep, and then they were too excited. They were like, told NASA, we're. We're overriding your recommendations. We're gonna. We're putting our suits on. We're going, wait.
- [46:57]
A
So they were up for three days straight, and they were just like, yeah.
- [47:00]
B
And they didn't. Couldn't sleep. They were on the. On the lunar surface. And he said, they put her suits on, and they went out there, and he's walking around the lunar surface, and he says he sees off in the distance, this blue marble. I love sharing this story because it's so crazy. This blue marble suddenly rise. It was an Earth rise from the moon. And he said, there it was, this oasis of life suspended in the darkness of space. The vacuum of space, such a hostile environment around it, right? And there it rose. And he had these big gloves on, and he put up one hand, and he blocked out the entire Earth from the lunar surface. He's like, all that. I know all that. I've learned all the borders, all the people, and I'm blocking it out with one hand.
- [47:39]
A
Damn.
- [47:40]
B
Yeah. Isn't that cool?
- [47:41]
A
So the Earth rises when you're on the moon.
- [47:43]
B
Yeah. It was Earth Rise. Yeah. Earthrise. Yeah. That's crazy.
- [47:46]
A
That's so cool.
- [47:47]
B
Yeah. And he's like. It was like a blue marble. Like you said, it's suspended in a vastness. He goes, you don't understand the vacuum of space until you've been there. Like, it's dark, it's hostile, and there's this oasis, this life oasis. And, yeah, it's really.
- [48:02]
A
It does suck. And it sucks to waste it just being.
- [48:04]
B
Oh, my God.
- [48:05]
A
Miserable.
- [48:06]
B
It's all we got.
- [48:07]
A
I know I'm guilty of that. I can be a miserable. But it's like, it really is, especially when you look at it. It's like, if you look at the scale and then you get into, like, the. The math behind, like, what are the. If they go, God, it all happened by chance. Well, what is, like, the mathematical probability of that? And it's. It's. It's like, literally, if you were a math person, you'd be like, well, yeah, my own math proves that this happening for no reason is so statistically improbable.
- [48:31]
B
It's crazy. Yeah.
- [48:32]
A
And they go, well, it's just because the universe is infinite and that anything can happen. It's like, okay, all right. Yeah, that's cool.
- [48:38]
B
You know, I wonder sometimes if we just. Like, I used to think back when I first started this, because I was like. I would go into the field. I wouldn't just read books or go to conferences. I would actually go to locations and meet with witnesses on UFO sightings all over the place. And so I knew the phenomenon was real. I mean, unless everybody I was talking to, including pilots and FAA officials and civilians and governors, all line. I was like, well, maybe, you know, it's such a big universe, you know, the galaxy, whatever, Milky Way, we probably just get periodic visitation. For whatever reason, the governments decide to cover it up. That's what I thought. But now, all these years later, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Now I feel like I know less today than I did when I started. Because, like you said. Could it be time travelers? Yes, it could. Could it be interdimensional? Yes, it could. Could it be interplanetary? Sure could. Why not? Yeah.
- [49:34]
A
You know, Tucker Carlson now is like.
- [49:36]
B
He's freaked out.
- [49:36]
A
He's like. And he's like, interdimensional thing.
- [49:39]
B
I'm done.
- [49:40]
A
Yeah, he's. He's like, out of nowhere, he tapped out. He got off a fox, and he was just. Next thing you know, it was just like, there's interdimensional entities, blah, blah. And everyone's like, what the dude?
- [49:48]
B
Yeah, no, he tapped out.
- [49:49]
A
What do you, what do you mean he tapped out?
- [49:51]
B
He's not doing the UAP anymore.
- [49:52]
A
He just doesn't even want to.
- [49:53]
B
He doesn't even want to talk about it. He learned certain things. He. He's like, we're done. I'm not doing this. And it's funny actually, because one of the things that Senator Harry Reid said to me was that they were just trying to get some of these senators to look at the data, look at the evidence, and they were so dismissive of. They said, it's demonic and I'm not going to engage with that. So because they couldn't explain it or for whatever reason, it was just written off. So there's that wing of the elected officials that have looked at it that way. I don't know if they're still looking at that way, but they were like, it's demonic and we don't want anything to do with it. I'm not even gonna look at it.
- [50:29]
A
Damn.
- [50:30]
B
That's what he told me.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:32]
B
And even people within the Pentagon saying that. Yeah.
- [50:35]
A
I mean, it makes sense if you're, especially if you're like, you know, an older man. And typically politicians and I would say even more so like military people, a lot of them are sort of kind of like a rigid, kind of like, you know, insulated. And like, not like they're not saying like they're egoic, but it is like they have a very kind of top down way of thinking. And like, stuff like this is like there's no time for it.
- [50:54]
B
You know, one of the people in the part of the UAP task force, I'm not sure what year he was involved, but his name is Lenval Logan. Great guy. And he goes, you know, it's crazy. He goes, we pick up a Russian MiG or something on the radar and it's all hands on deck. And yet when it doesn't have any markings on it, we can't identify it. It's like nothing to see here, folks. It's like, it's like he's like, well, how could that be? What? Like, like if it had a Russian flag or a Chinese flag, it would be all hands on deck because it doesn't have that. It's flying rings around. We can't stop it. Control or whatever. They just, it's like nothing to see here, folks. Yeah.
- [51:34]
A
Oh, that's kind of nuts.
- [51:35]
B
That's what he said. Yeah.
- [51:36]
A
There's got to be Some sort of directive. Like I said, if you're military, there's, there's rules for everything. So to be like, yeah, we'll get.
- [51:41]
B
That, like, how can that be? I was like, it's a great quote. It's one of the quotes in the credit. I always like to, like, I, When I'm editing a film, I'll get a lot of what I call GMs or golden moments. And I, and I always, like, I always paint those, I color those like a gold color. And then I, I put them. If I can't find a place for them in the movie, I tuck them aside in my gm, you know, basket. And then at the end of the film, I'll go, oh, God, I really. Can I squeeze these in somewhere? And if I can't squeeze them in one time I was like, why don't I just sprinkle them throughout the credits? So now I always love doing that. What I'll do is I'll get my little GMs, and that moment with Lenval Logan, who's part of the UAP task force, is sprinkled in the credits at the end. So that's awesome. If you do watch the program, watch it all the way through the end because there's lots of cool stuff sprinkled throughout the credits.
- [52:30]
A
That's awesome, man. Yeah, that is a good idea.
- [52:32]
B
Yeah.
- [52:32]
A
Damn, man. So what, we'll wrap this up. I think this has been awesome, by the way. Thank you.
- [52:36]
B
Oh, cool.
- [52:36]
A
Thanks. My question is, so say if somebody, you know, the biggest Doubting Thomas or one of the, you know, if someone pretty close minded is like, I don't even want to think about this stuff. Do you have like one of like silver bullet, you'd be like, check this out. Or would you just.
- [52:50]
B
I would have to say that if you watch the program and you still think there's nothing to it, I think that's going to be nearly impossible. I really do. Just because of the bipartisan effort, the congressional hearings, people testifying under oath, some of the video photographic cases and radar. And look, the DoD is begrudgingly admitting that the phenomenon's real. They're not lying anymore about that. Right? I mean, they're trying to control how this stuff comes out, but it's happening, it's coming out okay. So one can speculate all day long as to where it's coming from and what its objective or agenda. That's up for speculation. But the phenomenon is real and it defies a conventional explanation.
- [53:39]
A
Awesome, dude. Thank you so much. Thanks for doing this man.
- [53:42]
B
Of course.
- [53:42]
A
Watch the program. Thank you, James.
- [53:44]
B
Of course, later on.