Ep 602 - Future Man (feat. Kevin Ashton)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast

Episode: 602 – Future Man (feat. Kevin Ashton)
Date: March 6, 2026
Hosts: Matt McCusker & Shane Gillis
Guest: Kevin Ashton (author, futurist, "inventor" of the Internet of Things)

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Overview

In this episode, comedians Matt McCusker and Shane Gillis sit down with Kevin Ashton—author, British expat, brand manager turned MIT researcher, and the mind behind the term “Internet of Things.” The trio discusses Kevin's career, the origins of major technology shifts, the human instinct for storytelling, and how our narratives shape modern society, identity, and even political discourse. Ashton’s forthcoming book, The Story of Stories, serves as a jumping-off point for examining how technology and storytelling are intertwined. The episode is lively, humorous, and packed with insights about technology, human nature, and how we process truth in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Kevin Ashton: Identity, Age, and Class in Sports

• Origins & Age: Kevin, 57, reflects on how youth culture becomes mainstream as you age; grocery store music now plays the tracks of his childhood. ("I go in the grocery store, they're playing the music I danced to when I was a kid." – Ashton, 01:31)
• Class & British Sports: A playful discussion emerges around sports hierarchy in the UK. Rugby is for “posh boys,” soccer for working class—unlike American perceptions.
  • "You could play soccer on the street corner ... you toss down your sweaters and you got a ball and you're away." – Ashton, 02:24

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2. The Birth of the Internet of Things

• Coining the Term: Ashton details the moment he coined “Internet of Things” for a Procter & Gamble presentation in the 1990s. The motivation: get executives excited (who barely used email!) by including “Internet” in the pitch.
• Notable Quote: "You move from being, like, an idiot to a futurist." (Ashton, 03:21)
• Early Applications: Logistics in military and supply chain management were among the first real use-cases. Proctor & Gamble’s support led to research at MIT.
  • "They gave me money so I could fund the research. Then we got a bunch of other companies involved and it just snowballed." – Ashton, 16:07

Segment Timestamps

• 02:55–06:45: Coining "Internet of Things" and early reactions
• 07:09–09:47: Pre-smartphone logistics; applying sensors to track inventory in real time

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3. Technology Foresight: Predicting Smartphones and Self-Driving Cars

• Motorola, Apple, and "Missing It": Ashton describes consulting to Motorola and witnessing their failure to recognize the touchscreen revolution. Apple’s iPhone succeeded not because of technical superiority but by intuitively serving user needs.
  • "Steve Jobs ... was that guy for tech. He really had a good eye for what was coming." – Ashton, 12:14
• Self-Driving Cars Prediction: Ashton predicted 15 years ago that most cars would become autonomous; he notes this has mostly come true, with widespread “autopilot” features and services like Waymo.
  • "I got here in a Waymo." – Ashton, 23:20

Segment Timestamps

• 09:47–13:40: Phone innovation history and Jobs’s vision
• 23:01–24:41: Predictions about self-driving cars materializing

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4. The Anatomy of Good Predictions (and Futurist Fallibility)

• Predictions & Honesty: Ashton reflects on the habit among futurists to “post-rationalize” if predictions fail, whereas he prides himself on being honest about misses.
  • "A lot of guys are completely wrong. I won’t name names ... but, yeah, when you said that didn’t happen, I’ll be like, yeah, you’re right." (Ashton, 29:11)
• Optimism vs. Doom in Tech: Ashton is broadly optimistic about technology, reminding listeners that pessimists are often “safely wrong.”
  • "It’s safe to be an optimist, because I’m gonna tell you now, the world is not going to end in our lifetime. And if I’m wrong ... who’s gonna know?" (Ashton, 31:14)

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5. AI, Meaning & Storytelling

• AI Limitations: Ashton argues AI can’t replace truly meaningful human communication or comedy—the best writing and jokes have truth and resonance, something machines can’t mimic.
  • "AI storytelling is like, crap, human storytelling." – Ashton, 34:33
  • "Machines can't do that—can't do meaning." – Ashton, 33:25
• Comedy & Truth: Good comedy (ex: Bill Hicks) is timeless because it’s rooted in truth. AI, says Ashton, might generate “crap” bits, but can't create genuine resonance.

Segment Timestamps

• 32:02–36:23: AI, the meaning-making gap, and storytelling’s unique human role

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6. The Story of Stories: Identity, History, and Smartphones

• Why Stories Matter: The essence of his book is that stories are the backbone of human culture and identity. With smartphones, storytelling has shifted from an elite to a universal tool.
  • "This is the first time in human history when anybody can tell stories to anybody." – Ashton, 44:57
• Human Identity as Story: Ashton and Matt discuss how one’s identity is maintained through self-narratives rather than persistent physical characteristics.
  • "Your understanding of the world is like 99.9% based on stories that you have heard. ... Very little of what we know we know through our own eyes and ears." – Ashton, 51:08

Segment Timestamps

• 44:21–47:42: From firelight storytelling to the smartphone age
• 48:22–52:16: Identity, narratives, and self-awareness

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7. Stories, Villainy, and Truth in Modern Life

• Simplistic Narratives: People naturally break the world into “heroes and villains”—from politics to sports to relationships.
  • "Any story where, like, you're the hero, someone else is the villain—probably when the alarm bells need to ring." – Ashton, 63:52
• Political Deepfakes and Skepticism: Ashton worries about a future where deepfakes make telling reality from fiction near-impossible. Critical thinking must keep pace.
  • "We're going to reach a point soon when you actually can't tell ... are you being told a story, how real is it, how fake is it?" – Ashton, 51:16
• Conspiracies and Shame Machines: Social media and news leverage stories for delivering shame or glory, divided neatly into narratives that polarize and often oversimplify.
  • "It's a giant shame apparatus ... you're listening, you're like, yeah, I hate that guy." – Matt, 50:11

Segment Timestamps

• 52:16–59:40: Deepfakes, trust, and story-fueled tribalism
• 61:51–63:52: Villain narratives and subjective bias in personal stories

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Futurism:
  • "When you have a stupid idea and it comes true, you move from being, like, an idiot to a futurist." — Kevin Ashton (03:21)
• On Storytelling and Identity:
  • "Your understanding of the world is like 99.9% based on stories that you have heard." — Kevin Ashton (51:08)
• On the Limits of AI:
  • "A toaster turns bread into toast. It doesn't know what toast is ... AI is just ... brain toast." — Kevin Ashton (32:30)
  • "Comedy is truth-telling ... The more it makes you feel something, and in comedy it's laughter, the truer it is." — Kevin Ashton (33:25)
• On Self-Narratives:
  • "Identity [is] being the story you tell yourself ... that doesn't change who you are, like, one inch." — Kevin Ashton (61:51)
• Humor and Humanity:
  • [After explaining his kids only contact him because he’s on the show]: “For once, they’re impressed. Oh, they’re gonna call ... The book coming out doesn’t matter, but ... you met Matt.” — Kevin Ashton (69:16)

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Conclusion & Final Notes

This episode presents an entertaining yet thought-provoking dialogue between comics and a pioneering technologist. Ashton provides historical context (from grocery store jams to the birth of RFID tags), dispels some tech utopian/dystopian myths, and ultimately champions the importance—and risk—of stories in shaping our individual and collective realities.

Release Note: Kevin Ashton's new book The Story of Stories is out Tuesday, March 3rd.

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Episode Highlights – Quick Reference

| Timestamp | Topic / Quote | |-----------|----------------| | 02:55–06:45 | Coining "Internet of Things" | | 07:09–09:47 | Early applications/logistics | | 12:14–13:40 | The iPhone & Steve Jobs's vision | | 23:01–24:41 | Self-driving car prediction comes true | | 32:02–36:23 | Why AI can't do meaning or write good comedy | | 44:21–47:42 | Storytelling: From fire pits to smartphones | | 51:08–52:16 | Almost all human knowledge is second-hand stories | | 52:16–59:40 | Deepfakes, shame cycles, and the messiness of truth | | 61:51–63:52 | Caution against “hero/villain” narratives |

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Book:
The Story of Stories by Kevin Ashton – available now.

Hosts' Mood & Tone:
Irreverent, self-deprecating, playful, yet genuinely curious and respectful of ideas. The chemistry with Ashton allows for both insightful deep dives and giggly asides—making for an accessible listen, even for the less tech-savvy.

Listen if you:

• Wonder how technology shapes (or distorts) your sense of self and reality
• Want a crash course in tech foresight and storytelling
• Enjoy comedy that grapples with big ideas without taking itself too seriously

Transcript

[A]

Hey, what's up? What's up? What's going on, everybody? I'm already fumbling over my words. Dude, I suck. I'm here with Kevin Ashton. How you doing, man?

[B]

I'm good. How are you?

[A]

Pretty good. So how would you define yourself? Obviously author, futurist, future. You think you're old now?

[B]

Oh, good. Yeah. What, 57.

[A]

57.

[B]

57.

[A]

I'm not, I'm not too far behind. I'm 40.

[B]

Oh, that's young.

[A]

40. I. I think 40 is kind of. I still feel like a boy. Like, there's never. The switch has never occurred to where I'm like, a little bit. I feel like a man.

[B]

I go in the grocery store, they're playing the music I danced to when I was a kid.

[A]

Really?

[B]

That's. That makes you feel old?

[A]

Oh, when it's in the grocery store?

[B]

Yeah, it's like the music now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but that was old. So what was your. What was your music back in the day? What was your go to?

[B]

Oh, I was a jazz funk guy.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, Jazz funk. One like that. It's like the. It's a British name for like R B, basically. So like mid-80s. It was like Luther Vandross. Oh, yeah.

[A]

You're smooth, brother.

[B]

Oh, yeah. All the working class kids in London.

[A]

There you go. Nice.

[B]

The posh kids liked, you know, the punky stuff. But we were.

[A]

So I gotta ask you then, is it true? Because I. I have a friend who's from London and he loves soccer.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I, I, you know, naturally. And in America, soccer is looked at as a sport kind of for girls. Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

I mean, like, not so much now, though. Yeah, not so much. When I was trying to explain to him when I grew up, it was like, we. Everyone played football. That's what we. We call American football.

[B]

Football.

[A]

And I was like, you know, I was just kind of getting under his skin. I was like, it's kind of for, like, weak guys and girl. And he was like, nah. And I was. Because I played rugby. And he's like, rugby's for the posh boys.

[B]

And he was, that's true.

[A]

And so. It's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Rugby's such a more brutal sport. Such a more brutal sport. Why is it for the posh boys?

[B]

It's just the way the school system. I mean, I was like. It was suggested that I go to, like, the posh school in town and. But they didn't play soccer, they played rugby. And there was just. I was like 11. There was no way, really, I was going to school that didn't play soccer.

[A]

So it's kind of. Okay. So it's almost like, over there. It's like if someone played water polo over here, that would be very.

[B]

Yeah. Or like, lacrosse, maybe.

[A]

Lacrosse isn't very. It's not posh. It's.

[B]

Yeah, it is in New England, I feel like.

[A]

Yeah, you know, you're right. Lacrosse bros are, I would say, borderline posh boys as well.

[B]

So cricket and rugby, a lot like the posh.

[A]

I feel ashamed. I played the posh sport. I thought I was flexing on him. He was like, oh, you could play

[B]

soccer on the street corner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you toss down your sweaters and you got a ball and you're away.

[A]

True.

[B]

Do that. You can't quite do that with rugby, you know. Yeah.

[A]

You'd have to play, like, touch.

[B]

Yeah. Landing on that street and it would. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you're right. I was hoping I would. He would get overturned, but that's completely true.

[B]

Yeah. Dang.

[A]

Well, all right. Thank you for coming to the podcast. So, okay, so futurist. How do you get the futurist title? Oh, so that's, like, a thing you can't study at school. Right. There's no, like, major in futurism?

[B]

I mean, I. It's not a word I use about myself so much, I guess, but. Yeah, I mean, I started a lab at MIT.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In the late 90s. That's why I came to the US and, like, I had this idea that I called the Internet of Things. Yeah. And everybody thought, what the hell is that? It's crazy. And they're all interested in, like, the dot com boom and everything. But, you know, we got lucky and our research did well, and now the Internet of Things is everywhere. So you kind of. I guess when you have a stupid idea and it comes true, you. You move from being, like, an idiot to a futurist.

[A]

That's awesome. Well, it's funny because I. I watched a video and. And the origin of the Internet of Things, you know, which we'll explain in a second. Because I. I always heard that term, and I, I. There's something about it. I'm like, man, I love that term. I had no idea what you were talking about. I just, like, I was just like, it's like the Internet. I had this nebulous idea in my head. I'm like, it's like the Internet and just stuff. And, you know, I. I didn't know what it exactly was. You came up with the term. You're pitching a thing For Procter and Gamble. Right? Yeah, yeah, I saw that. And you, it sounded like you kind of just like pulled it out of your ass. You're like, I want to look. Yeah, I wanted to. Like, because you wanted to what, like, make them use the Internet for their supply chain.

[B]

It was the mid-90s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, honestly, it sounds crazy now, but the senior executives didn't even do email. You sent them an email and it came back in the internal mail. Most people won't know what the hell that is, but like a special reusable envelope, their secretary had printed it out and they'd like write a reply to your email. That's how technical these guys were in the mid-90s. And then suddenly they heard about the Internet and it was kind of like the thing you had to. To know about. Yeah. So like I already had this idea for like, like putting chips and things in, in the product so we could know where they were, but they didn't. Weren't getting that. So I figured if I could put the word Internet in there somehow, then, you know, they'd be interested and then

[A]

just tacked on of things.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of like, I mean, really like, what am I going to call this PowerPoint presentation? How about this?

[A]

Internet of things.

[B]

Yeah. And here we are now 30 years later.

[A]

Yeah, that's cool. Because then like that idea for the presentation became almost like a career launching point. Oh, it did?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

And I have to pretend like it was like some real. The best. You ask about what the Internet things. Have you heard of teledildonics? Teledildonics?

[A]

Have you heard teledildonics? No, I have no idea what the hell that is.

[B]

This is my favorite. People say, what's the Internet of things? I say, tel. It's the Internet of things. Of sex toys.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

It's like vibrators you can like turn on from like the Internet anywhere in the world.

[A]

Oh, the vibrating butt plug. Yeah, yeah, the vibrating amp.

[B]

But like, you know, through. Through WI Fi or your phone.

[A]

That's how you define the Internet of Things.

[B]

That is one of the first killer apps of the Internet of Things.

[A]

They were. They're always the first adopters of everything. And just so. And just to explain it, because again, I feel like if you're. It's. It's a simpler idea than you think. It's just using attaching sensors to things that are connected to the Internet and then can bring in information.

[B]

You're plugging the world into the instance.

[A]

Necessary.

[B]

So here.

[A]

Did you come up with that idea or were you just describing the practice to these guys and you coined the term?

[B]

I was one of, like, there was a small room full of people who all came up with similar ideas about the same time. Yeah, but like, the Internet was new. It was dial up. It was kind of crappy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, we didn't have graphics really or anything. So the idea of using the Internet for like anything past, like email was kind of on the wild side of things. But. Yeah, so. Yeah, but plugging the real world into the Internet so you knew where stuff was. So like you could have things like self driving cars that like know where they are and are communicating with your phone and stuff like. Yeah. And this was before WI Fi.

[A]

Oh, dude, that must have sounded insane in 1980.

[B]

Oh, it did.

[A]

Yeah. 1995.

[B]

Yeah. People thought it was. It was like maybe 97, but like. Yeah. People are like, what the hell? This is why it called the Internet of things.

[A]

True.

[B]

Because like, at least I could. They wanted to pretend they knew what the Internet was. Yeah. So you just like ride on that.

[A]

That's, that's pretty cool. So that, that was the whole idea was you, you know, back in the day you'd have these companies or advise them to attach basically just sensors to regular objects. So then those sensors can then gather data.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which basically. So and this was before the smartphone then.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Way before the smartphone. Yeah. This is like business systems. Like we got a lot of money from the Defense Department because, you know, you go to war. Yeah. You got to have enough stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Where the hell are my bombs?

[B]

Yeah. How did I put those bombs is one thing. But like, you know, soda cans, body bags, bibles, you know, toothbrushes, all that stuff. You've got to know where it all is. And so, you know, that was one of the first, like obvious applications was just like logistics.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's where all the money came from to fund it. But. Yeah. Then a few years later you got the smartphone and it becomes easier to put it in everybody's pocket. Yeah.

[A]

So how did that like, you know, were you kind of following the development of the smartphone? Did that just come out and you're like, hey, Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it was funny. I was, I guess I can say the name now. Like, I was, I was on the board, the research board of Motorola.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And we were trying to explain to them this was like the flip phone. And one of the perks was they gave you their best phone every year. So I always had like the quote unquote best Motorola phone. It's terrible.

[A]

Like, you know, like the Razor, the Flip razor.

[B]

It was awful. I mean, the funny thing is, like, Motorola even had a partnership with Apple before the iPhone. Really? Yeah. It was called the Rokr. Right. It was like an ipod in a Motorola Flip phone.

[A]

Okay. Whoa.

[B]

They fucked it up so badly that Steve Jobs is like, yeah, no, oh,

[A]

I don't want anything.

[B]

We gotta do our own thing. We are trying to explain these. Me and some other, like, futurists, we're trying to explain to them, like, you know, touchscreens, graphic user interfaces, guys. Sensors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have the phone, like, know when you pick it up. Like, this is not expensive. It's not hard to do. And then, I mean, the first iPhone wasn't the first one. Like, LG came out with a thing in Korea.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Six months before.

[A]

That makes sense because I had a Droid way before I had my first phone. Was a Droid. Yeah, I think it was actually an lg.

[B]

Yeah. And so LG had this, like. It was called the Prada. Don't ask me why.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Clothing company. Yeah. But it was. It was. It was basically the same as an iPhone. And then the iPhone came out. And I remember, like, I went back to the Motorola guys with another meeting and we were like, so, you know that thing we were telling you about for years, it's happened, right? What do you think? And the head of. I swear to you, the head of research, Motorola said, yeah, but it doesn't have a very good microphone. Like, people were like, lining up around the block to pay like $1,000 for this phone they'd never even touched. Right. And this guy was like, oh, it has a crappy microphone. And that was kind of true, but who gave a shit?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, Motorola is kind of not in business anymore.

[A]

No, they. And they. It's funny you say that because they were like cell phones. They were like number one.

[B]

Nokia.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

No, Sony. All these guys. And probably in all those companies, there was somebody saying, hey, this is what the future is going to look like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were like, yeah. So. Yeah.

[A]

Sorry, who is that? Yeah, who's above you? This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. I always find it impressive when someone can let me talk about a skill I find impressive or profession I appreciate. For example, Olympic athletes and their dedication to training people can touch their nose with their tongues. Or someone who can speak multiple languages. Well, those are good prompts, but I just love a good accountant, guys. One skill I found tremendously helpful in my Life recently is, hmm, let's say accounting. That's my new passion. I've been doing all of my own accounting lately and I really like it and it's helped me gain a better sense of what all of my accountants have done and I love it. And guys should all develop this skill. It's very important. Having a certain set of skills is important, like I said, especially when it comes to hiring. And one of the best ways to make sure you're finding the right people with the skill set you're looking for is to use a ZipRecruiter. Try it free for yourself at ZipRecruiter.com Secret along with a powerful matching technology, ZipRecruiter lets you use screening questions on your job listing to help you find qualified candidates to fast so you can make sure you're talking to exactly the kind of talent you need. It's one of the many reasons ZipRecruiter continues to be ranked. The number. Oh well, it just says the number hiring site. I'm going to say number one. They didn't give me the number. The number blank hiring site, guys. I'm saying number one based on G2. I'm going to make that leap of faith for ZipRecruiter. Number one hiring site based on G2. Of course. Let ZipRecruiter help you find amazing candidates with the skills skills you seek. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com secret that's ZipRecruiter.com secret meet your match on ZipRecruiter. That's all right. So the, that's pretty crazy man, to think about it that long ago where it was like, because they, they. It's almost there's like a super like mystique around the iPhone where it was like, you know, just, you know, people a lot of times are like Jobs was just like taking acid in the woods and was just like completely tapped in. So that had been a slow, ongoing process.

[B]

He was a guy like, he looked like a really good DJ who like is just ahead of the trends, who like plays a tune you wouldn't have thought about. But then you realize it's actually he was that guy for like tech. Like he really had a good eye for what was coming and you know, and so what happened with the iPhone, like, and this is kind of what we all saw. It was, it wasn't really a phone. Phone was a Thing, you know, if you think about your smartphone now, like, how often are you actually making a call? Yeah, right. It's just one of your apps. There's all the others to use it, a camera, use it as a video game, use it as, you know, GPS mapping, whatever you use it for. Yeah, and. And that's what he saw, you know, so you got the ipod idea and the online video idea and the phone idea and the handheld video. Just all stick it into one thing.

[A]

Yeah. And he really. I, I get him because I had the Droid first and I, you know, I was like. And I will say there was something about when I would, like, tap it or touch it, that. When it would buzz. Every time I did that, it. There were. I. I don't know why that, like, made me feel so happy. Every time I, like, respond back to me. I, I don't know. I still like, you know, I had to turn it off my phone because I just. I do like those little noises like.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And if you watch the first, like, presentation on iPhone, like way back when, like, he swipes on the screen, I think it's a standing ovation. We take it all for granted now. But yeah, so it was, it was fairly clear in the late 90s, early 2000s that something a bit like that was. Was going to happen.

[A]

Well, yeah, that was my whole thing. Apple, like, when I had the Droid for a while, I'm like, this is cool. But Apple was like, it was like, intuitive where I was like, oh, this is so easy. Like, I don't have to spend time figuring it out. I was just kind of like, this makes. It's just so much easier to use.

[B]

Yeah. Because, I mean, Jobs wasn't really a technical guy, you know, so he, he was kind of like our representative in the room who's like, yeah, this is too complicated. Yeah, make it easier. Make it easier. And then you end up with, you know, what we have today, which is awesome. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So the, so here's, here's the thing. So, okay, Internet of Things term you coined and when you gave the meeting, were you, like, kind of aware that, like, damn, I think I'm crushing it right now? Or like, this is a thing. Or do you have. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, oh, man, it's a long time ago. So the CEO wanted to see the talk of Procter and Gamble, and I was in the uk. I don't think they realized that. Like, I got an email saying, yeah, come and see the CEO, like the day after tomorrow or something. Proctor And Gamble was based in Cincinnati. I'd never even been to the US Right. Fortunately, I had a passport, so, like, I got a ticket. First place I ever went to the United States was Cincinnati.

[A]

That's pretty sick.

[B]

I was fairly disappointed.

[A]

Right to Ohio.

[B]

And I'm in this, like, walnut paneled, like, boardroom kind of place. And they all come in, like, there's a. You know, the CEO and all these other, like, really senior guys, and I do my thing and basically we go around the room and like, all the other, like, the Entourage guys are like, yeah, sucks. That would never work. I don't like it. I'm like, oh, damn. You know, Damn. But then the CEOs like, well, I like it. I think it's a good idea. And funnily enough, like, it's like watching the dominoes go down. Like, all these guys who I swear had just been shitting on my idea. Like, yeah, you're right. That's really. Yeah. What a good idea. So, yeah. If it hadn't been Dirk Yaga, wherever you are, thank you. If it hadn't been for that guy who was CEO at Proctor at the time, I don't know what would have happened. But, yeah, he got it. He said, yeah, we're going to pay for you to go to MIT and make this real.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

So, like, yeah, first time I went to the U.S. was like, Thanksgiving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was like Thanksgiving of 98. And then by 9-1-99, I was in the Smithsonian Institution announcing the Internet of Things to the world. And I lived in the U.S. whoa. Happened really fast.

[A]

Yeah. That's insane.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[A]

And they were like, we'll just give you. We'll pay for you to go to

[B]

MIT and just figure out. They gave me money so I could fund the research. Then we got a bunch of other companies involved and it just snowballed.

[A]

Well, and what did you do before that?

[B]

I was. I was a brand manager. I was. I ran, like, part of the Oil of Olay business. The Procter and Gamble.

[A]

Okay. In Europe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn. Slanging lotion. Yeah, just slanging lotion.

[B]

I was like, an expert on mascara.

[A]

And you were like, supply chain side of it.

[B]

No, it just. The shit was never in the store. And I got pissed off and I was like, why is my stuff never in the store? Why is. You know, why is this particular color of lipstick that we know everybody likes, a literally true story is never in this. I go get my groceries. It's never fucking there. And the first answer was, well, it's just in that one store. And I'm like, yeah, no, there's no way. It's just the store I go to is. So I did some research. It wasn't anywhere. Like, we were paying all this money to advertise it. You couldn't actually buy it. I wanted to fix that problem.

[A]

It just wasn't getting there, basically.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it was. It was in the back or something, you know?

[A]

Wait, so you have, like, computer training? Like, are you, like, a systems it?

[B]

No, but, like, I was like, here's an idea school in, like, the early mid-90s. And, like. Like, I had a computer when I was 10. I had, like, a shitty home computer. Okay. You know, like, the Age of Light. If you've heard of, like, Commodore and all those kind of really early computers.

[A]

No, no, no. I only remember the Windows and, like, that early Apple thing that was, like, purple on top of it.

[B]

So. Yeah. But my generation was, like, we were the first kids to have computers at home. You had, like. You either had your Atari video game system or. Yeah, Commodore 64 home didn't do very much.

[A]

But what was the Commodore? I remember Atari. What was The Commodore?

[B]

Commodore 64 is, like, a key you plugged into the TV and it had, like, basic computer ability. And you could, like, buy video games on cassette tapes and, like, play them into the computer. It would sound like a fax machine, and it would, like, load it in. You could play some little game. That's awesome. Yeah. No. So, yeah, I just grew up with computers. So, like, I was like, well, there's got to be a. This is an information problem. Right? There's got to be a solution. And, like, there was. Dang. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it worked out.

[A]

So then you walked home that day. Like I said, I think I crushed it. Did you have an idea? Like, you were just. That day, you were like, I went

[B]

from there to a meeting at mit, and I was having breakfast in the Cambridge Marriott Hotel, which is at that time was, like, the only hotel near mit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And a senior guy from Procter and Gable, Campbell, came busting in to find me at breakfast. Was like, they've just approved for you to transfer to mit. How quickly can you move to the United States? And I was like, how about two weeks? And they're like, yeah, sure.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

And I, like, went back to my office and, like, the human resources team, and, yeah, we pay for your apartment, we pay for your plane, we pay for all this stuff. I'm like, oh, my God. So, yeah, it was like, it was life change.

[A]

That's insane. Honestly, that's like a fantasy of mine. I always wanted to go in a boardroom and hit him with the, you know, million dollar idea. God, that's awesome. I would love that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it landed, but, like, I'm not kidding you. Like, the first five minutes of feedback were brutal.

[A]

It is funny like that. I like it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was their. Do you remember their pushback specifically? Or they're just like, this will never work.

[B]

It was just like they had some bullshit. Like. I mean, the thing you always heard back in that days was all the laws of physics. You know, if you want to put a radio microchip into like a bottle of moisturizer, it's going to cost $10 and. And it won't work. And like, this was before WI fi. It was before Bluetooth, and there are a lot of people who are convinced that you really couldn't send data over radio.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Or barely. Yeah. And that's crazy. Now, like, we think about, like, you know, you can download like a high def movie on your phone over, like the cell network, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But in the 90s, it was like, yeah, that won't work. It's going to cost too much. We already know where all our stuff is anyway. I'm like, no, you don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, there were guys whose job it was like, to know they weren't going to be like, yeah, you know, he's right. We actually have no idea.

[A]

True.

[B]

So, like, this is not a problem. That was one of the you. So what were they?

[A]

How did they, like, who? The guy who knew where all the stuff was. Back in the early night, they would just call a warehouse, yo, did you guys get that stuff?

[B]

Well, they'd know, like, they'd know, like, down to the nearest, like, million or something, right? But was because I used to get this, like, even after we got to mit, we'd have like CEO type guys come through and we'd pitch them and they'd be like, yeah, we already know where all our stuff is. And I'd be like, okay, you sell this product and you've got a store down the street in Boston. How long would it take you to find out how many of this one product are on the shelf in that store? And they'd be like, yeah, well, you know. And else was, they couldn't do it.

[A]

Yeah, of course. I used to work in a beer distributor in the. When was this? The early 2000s. And the guy would still walk around, count every single case of beer. He had a piece of paper. So I remember I stole a 12 pack from him one time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he could find. He was like, did you. I was missing a 12 pack of MGD and I was like, God damn, you really had this thing.

[B]

Oh, that's good.

[A]

Yeah. He was the only guy.

[B]

That guy owned that store.

[A]

I reckon he was. He worked very closely with the owner. It was like a. He was trying to get a citizenship and he like lived in the. He lived in the warehouse itself. So he was. It was like his ticket to America invested.

[B]

But like in a big box store. Like.

[A]

No, there's no way. No. Especially if you go to like a Target still to this day, you go to a Target sometimes and it's like just crap everywhere. Like, I. It's. It's pretty bad.

[B]

Oh yeah, it's a mess.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Well, cool.

[A]

So you came up, came up with that idea and that kind of. I don't know, did you ever feel like, kind of since you weren't, you know, technically like a. You know, you were savvy with computers? I guess. I guess if you used a computer regularly in the 90s, you were a tech guy. You know what I mean?

[B]

Well, you know, I was kind of too stupid now how stupid I was really. But my experience had been like the first computer I got had 1k of memory and I saved up. We used to deliver newspapers. I saved up for months and bought a 16k. Like k. Not megabytes, gigabytes, kilobytes. Memory expansion for that thing cost like 100 bucks or whatever. And I felt like I had more memory than I would ever need. Right. This is in the 80s and by the 90s, you know, it's like we're talking about like maybe megabytes. Yeah. And the stuff you. You can do was like a million times better than the stuff you could do in the 80s. So, like, in my dumb brain, it was like, well, things just get cheaper. Yeah, things just get smaller. And that turned out to be true. I mean, I didn't know how it was true or why it was true,

[A]

but, like, you just Figured it out.

[B]

Yeah, I'd seen that happen for like 15 years at that point.

[A]

Yeah, I saw a video. So there's a video from you 11 years ago and you were doing predict. You had like three predictions and the one was 15 years from now. This is 11 years ago. 15 years from now, most cars won't have steering wheels, which I took as like automatic cars basically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So kind of kind of nailed that. Because I don't know if you see, I mean obviously you see all the waymos here.

[B]

I got here in a way.

[A]

I love the way. I actually love the waymos. So you're so. You were kind of spot on with that. 15 years ago or 11 years ago you were like, yeah, there's self driving cars. I don't think people really. 11 years ago they're like, no way.

[B]

Oh, there were no. And the thing is like what's happened is a lot of cars, like new cars are more self driving than people realize. It's called like enhanced drive out. Yeah. So it tells you if you're like going out of your lane, it can tell you if you need to brake sudden, you know, there's a whole bunch of stuff they're like building in gradually. So like what used to just be like the automatic gearbox or like cruise control or something?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like now getting more and more sophisticated. So you're getting closer and closer to like that self driving.

[A]

Yeah, the lane assist and I, I like it. I took awaymo and I actually kind of really enjoy it. You know, I thought I'd be like, I don't know, it's, it's pretty reliable. It drives like a regular speed.

[B]

It's, you know, first few minutes is kind of weird and then it just gets old. Yeah. I find.

[A]

And I like, I enjoy talking to people in Uber so I don't mind the human interaction, but there is something really peaceful about just like being there by yourself, putting on a song and just kind of just chilling. I like really, really. I don't know, I feel, I find it really relaxing.

[B]

I still catch myself about to say something to the driver. Oh yeah.

[A]

Or I'll say thank you again.

[B]

Yeah. It says hello and it says your name and I always want to say, you know, hello back. It's like there's no one. Yeah, no one here, dude.

[A]

So the other one was. And I'm curious to see where you're coming up with this. Five years from now, computers won't have batteries. What would they run on?

[B]

Oh, I was cheating at that point. Right. Because they already. I mean, so there's a thing called an RFID tag, which is like the sort of one of the main technologies in the Internet of things. It's just like a little chip with an antenna. And like, you buy something from Walmart or something, they use it for inventory tracking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you buy something from Walmart, it might have a sticker on that says epc. That's the thing we embed at mit. That's the electronic product code. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's a computer. An RFID tag is a computer, but it's very small. It's very simple. It doesn't have a battery. It gets power from the radio waves that are communicating with it. There are more. Even when I made that prediction, there were more RFID tags in the world then than any other kind of computer added together. Smartphone, I mean, these things cost a few cents. They're in your speed pass. And the products you buy and they use for tracking and Amazon warehouses and whatnot. So there's billions of them and they don't have batteries. Right. So that's the cheat in that story.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

But what's happening in computing is two things. One, the amount of power it uses goes down by about half every two years.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

So computers just keep getting more power efficient. Right. So they need less power. But also then we're getting better at sending power over the air harvesting power from vibrations, sound vibrations, stuff like that. So, yeah, we're definitely moving. I mean, it might be your smartphone always has a battery, but you probably noticed you get a lot more life out of a charge now than you used to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the power budgets go down. Ways of putting power in go beyond batteries. That's been happening for a while. That will keep happening.

[A]

Damn. So those little. Okay, so those are. What's the difference between a computer and a computer chip?

[B]

Nothing.

[C]

Really.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, because you think a computer and it's like shorthand for like, personal computer, but that's like a chip with like a keyboard, like a memory or, you know, a fan or something. Right. But the thing that's doing the computing is the microprocessor.

[A]

Gotcha.

[B]

And that's one chip, one integrated circuit.

[A]

That's crazy. They just pull the, I guess the energy out of the WI fi and they keep. That's why. Yeah, that's why my easy pass keeps rocking. I've never charged.

[B]

There you go. Yeah.

[A]

Dang. Nailed that, too. And what do you think?

[B]

I'm nervous. That was the third one.

[A]

No, the third one I Think you're spot on. Kids and grandkids will live to 100 on average. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's, that's coming, I think, worldwide.

[B]

We're definitely getting there. You know, I mean, the pandemic like screwed up like life expectancy. Because the thing about life expectancy that nobody knows, right, is it's what age are people dying today? So if you're 20 years old and you like, you go on the Internet, we'll say your life expectancy is 80, but that means that the people who die today are average age of 80.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not actually accounting for the fact that it will probably get better as you get older.

[A]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. So most people are going to, going to hit 100 unless they have a bad accident or something. Yes, that's definitely on the way.

[A]

Yeah. Hopefully they can do that. You know, little like tiny, small robots that can go around your body and be like cancer cell and then you just get like a thing on your watch.

[B]

I mean, that's, that's kind of sort of happening.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like at least customized drug delivery. Like it's kind of bit more modified for your, you know, your DNA, your body type, stuff like that. We're learning a lot. And the thing about health care is you solve one problem. Like when I was a kid, like all the men were dying in their 40s of heart attacks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They were smoking too much, they were drinking too much, they were eating British food too much, you know. Yeah. And. And we figured out heart attacks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Doesn't really happen anymore. So then people start dying of something else when they're 50. Yeah. And then we figured that out and then, you know, you get. And now, so now it's like dementia type problems.

[A]

Dementia is the big one right now.

[B]

You know, there's, there's a lot of interesting work happening. There's a lot of money being thrown at that. I guess someone will figure it out. And then the other side of that, there's. There's something else that people are 100 die of. Yeah. I just don't know at what point you like, does it stop working that you can't fix the thing that people.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder what the new thing will be.

[B]

I'll probably be the one who finds out. Call me in 30 years.

[A]

Dang, man. So, okay, so we figured out how you become a futurist. Do you have any futurist pals that you talk to that you kind of like?

[B]

Oh yeah, there's like, there's a little bunch of us and we Shoot the shit. And we, we, like, you know, like we post, rationalize. Like, you've given those predictions. A lot of guys are completely wrong. I won't name names, but. But, yeah, but you know when you said that. Yeah, but what I meant was.

[A]

Yeah, futurist.

[B]

There's this thing over here that I found on Google that actually proves so. Yeah. You know, I think I'm an honest futurist. Like, if you'd have said you predicted this, it didn't happen. I've been. Yeah, you right.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's hard, hard to figure, but, like, there are a lot of guys who. Yeah. Who, who won't ever admit that, like, they got it wrong. Yeah, you get a lot of stuff wrong.

[A]

Like now, surprising, if one of your futurist bros were to go like, too far into the future, would you pull them back? Being like, bro, you can't go that. Like, if they were like 700 years from now, or would you be.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I think that's like. I mean, because you got to think about. There's two things. Right. If you think about 700 years ago. Yeah. There was no way anybody could have described this. Right. Yeah, but. And as population gets bigger, you get more ideas and people have more leisure time as technology gets better to think about new things. So technology improvement accelerates massively. Right. Which is why we've gone from. I mean, the first main TVs were in the 50s. I think was like the big US television revolution. Like some shitty TV about this big. And now you've got like 4K on your phone. So the idea of looking more than 50 to 100 years ahead in any meaningful way.

[A]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. Because like, one thing leads to another and at some point, you know, it's just gone in a direction you didn't see coming.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what I like, I do like, in terms. You have a pretty optimistic outlook on terms of the future and technology. Oh, yeah, A lot of people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, especially with the sensors and this and that. Feel like they're. They're close. They're slowly getting closed in by like a giant, you know, surveillance apparatus that's going to, like, lock them.

[B]

People use good technology for bad things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, generally, governments. Not always. And that happens. And, you know, you try and control it, but you. If you don't invent something because someone might do something bad with it, you know, you're never going to invent anything. Right? Yeah, but the other thing is, like, it's. It's Safe to be an optimist, because, like, I'm going to tell you right now, like, the world is not going to end in our lifetime.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if I'm wrong, hey, who's gonna. Who's gonna know?

[A]

True.

[B]

You know, you can't really lose betting on.

[A]

Yeah, well, no, I feel like it's a lot of. You get a lot of. I personally think it's really in vogue to be very negative and very kind of doom and gloom with the history, especially with AI Everyone I know is, like, freaking out about it, and I honestly don't. I don't know. Again, it's like, yeah, if it races a bunch of jobs, you know, seemingly overnight, that's. It's going to be a problem. But I really feel like they'll figure it out. I don't know. I don't like. Yeah, because it's like, especially if you, like, go back to, like, the fall of the Roman Empire. Dude, if you'd asked any of those guys back then, they would have been like, it's done. We're done. Everything's over. They would have never been able to conceive of the fact that it's, like, not only not over, but it's going to be a million times different and better.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, and bad things happen. Good things happen. AI is like, a big, complicated topic, but, like, it's very close to the Internet of things, so I've been, like, dealing with AI one way or another since the 90s.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, I'm not, like, all doom and gloom or all, like, hype about it. I'm kind of, like, in the middle, you know, the thing is, I think. And I'm not trying to raise a billion dollars right now, so it's easy for me, but it's just a more complicated toaster, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A toaster turns bread into toast. It doesn't know what toast is. Right. Doesn't understand meaning. AI is the same. AI is just, like brain toast. Right. It doesn't know what it's doing. It's just a machine. And there are things that only humans can do. Right. And the thing that only humans can do, one of them is meaning. So if we, like, tell stories, we can only tell good stories. Computers can't. They can tell bad stories because they don't know what anything means. Yeah. I mean, it's like, I give you, like, in comedy, like, the best comedy is the truest comedy. Right. People laugh most. They get the most emotional reaction from something that feels most true. And that's True. In all storytelling, if it makes you scared or if it makes you excited or sad or whatever. Like, the more it makes you feel something, and in comedy, it's laughter, the truer it is generally, the more it means something. Machines can't do that. I can't do that.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's kind of. That's my feeling on it. And I've. I've, like. It's useful for, like, editing. You can have it edit, you can have a flag, errors. But, like, I don't know. I feel the same way because it's like. I mean, I guess in terms of, like, producing a good story, maybe they could, like, draw from, you know, know, 100 of the best authors of all time, copy some sort of, like, you know, pattern to that. But I don't feel like I've tested grok before by being like, you know, here's a joke I'm thinking of. And it was complete nonsense on purpose. Oh, yeah. And it was, like, hilarious. You're showing it. And I was. That's literally.

[B]

You know, it's like. It's like the guys who run it, they like sycophants, you know, they're like, yeah, people suck up and they think you like that too. But, like, I mean, I can't imagine you asking AI to write you a bit.

[A]

They can't.

[B]

And then you going on stage and being like, yeah, I can confidently deliver this.

[A]

No, I can't do it. Because I remember hearing, like, oh, it's gonna, you know, that first or whatever. Not the first, but the last writer strike. There's a big thing, like, AI is coming. It's gonna take. And I was like, how close is it actually for comedy writing? It's so, so bad. It's horrible.

[B]

Yeah, crap.

[A]

Crap.

[B]

AI storytelling is like, crap, human storytelling.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, like, what's. What's. Why is a bad comedian bad? It's because they're saying something that doesn't really mean anything, that doesn't really ring true.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

And like. Like, you see a crappy, like, straight to video kind of movie, and it's. It's kind of like a mashup of a bunch of cliches you've seen a million times before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Doesn't really have any kind of thematic thing. So I say, you know, comedy is. Is truth telling. Right? So I grew up again. I'm old. I grew up on, like, Bill Hicks. Yeah. Eddie Izzard. You can still go. You know that Bill Hicks. Yeah, yeah. So you can go. You can go back and look at Bill Hicks, like, from, like, the 80s or the 90s. He's still funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, maybe the President, he's taken the piss out of has changed the name or something, but basically, it's. It's still true. Right. And so, you know, that's. That's. That's all storytelling, whether it's comedy or anything else, it's got to be real. It's got to be true. It's got to have meaning. AI, I don't think he's ever going to be at that point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where, like, you could say, okay, I'm gonna have it. Tell me. Write me a joke, and I'm just gonna go say it, and people are gonna laugh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think you could do anything meaningful at least, you know, I don't think so. I think you could crank out, like, children's cartoons like Paw Patrol if you were to do, like, you know, like, a children's animated show. I've noticed as I've watched a good amount with my kids, almost all those cartoons follow the exact same storyline where it's like, you know, an animal's lost, it needs its mom, and it's like, you could. I think you could, like, crank out, slop like that. But, yeah, I. I just think it's good for, like, organizing. It's like a super spell check where it's like, it can go flag errors, you know? But, yeah, I. I'm not worried about it. I know so many people, like, it's going to become sentient and, like, realize it doesn't like us and kill us,

[B]

and it's like, I think people have stopped saying that since they started using it. Yeah, like, actually, this is kind of crap.

[A]

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I think both shows are going to sell out. So if you want to come, here's your cta, your call to action. If you want to come to those shows in Clits or if you want to come to the shirt. Almost called it Clitzburg. That's crazy. Cleveland, Ohio or Pittsburgh. Freudian slip. Yeah, just come, you can get my tickets. I think there's a link in this video to get them pretty sick. And also after that I'll be in St. Louis, Missouri, Indianapolis, St. Paul, Missouri. I guess that's Mo, Missouri, Des Moines, Iowa, Phoenix. Here's the big one, guys. All of them are selling pretty well. God damn that Phoenix Celebrity Theater is. It's not till April 17th so we have some time but that shows in the round and I actually enjoy performing in the round. So if you want to see my butt for like good 10 second stretches while I I do my thing and you know, I'll turn around, I'll show you my bulge at the celebrity theater as well. It'll be button bulge all night at the Celebrity Theater. Just an angry little micro bulge. I'll wear some joggers that night so everyone gets their money's worth. They can all go look at that. It's barely sticking out. Guys. I'll be in Tucson, Arizona, Toronto, Is a big one. Two shows. Again, not bragging. Nature of the beast. Two shows, both have sold out in Toronto. I'm thinking about adding a third. So Canadians. I know I've said a lot of bad things about your country. I was just kidding around. I love you guys. You guys love me more than all these bastards in Phoenix, Arizona, apparently. So come on out to the shows. And then Chicago, of course, will be at the Riviera Theater. Probably gonna add a second show there, hopefully, because that. That thing done sold out May 26, so whatever. Hopefully that makes sense to you guys. Go to mattmcusker.com and yeah, come to a show, man. We're having a good time. Also, I'll be doing Algonauts in Austin, Texas. That's once a month. I do that where me and Tim Butterly take people's cell phones, project their algorithm through Instagram, usually on the screen, and, you know, try to get a picture of, like, who is this person? What. What are they? What is the algorithm being sent to them? Or what is being sent to them through the algorithm? What does that say about them? What doesn't it say about them? Because you can't just judge someone on their algorithm. Or maybe you can, I don't know, come out to that. That's at the Creek. Creek and Cave. So if you go to Creek and Caveatx, you can get that. And last and I don't remember the saying last and cool enough, guys, I'm tired. Last and most importantly, Noble Bomb. I'll be in Philadelphia March 16th. I'm gonna. I'm just visiting family. Figured I'd strut my stuff on the old flagship stage, that is Helium Philadelphia. I'm gonna get some of my friends and we're all gonna try newish materials, stuff we're working on. It'll be fun. Come out. It'll be St. Patty's Day weekend. You can get drunk if that's what you feel you must do. And if you're trying really hard not to be drunk, well, try to hold out. Come to the show, be sober. You know, be fun. Learn how to be fun while sober. Or get hammered on St. Patty's Day. It's really up to you. All these. I'm laying out choices. That's all I'm doing. I'm not trying to coerce you. I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm just giving you choices. Do whatever you want. Love you guys. Back to the show.

[C]

Pardon the interruption. Pardon the interruption. This is Sean Gardini. I just wanted to let you guys know that I'll be in Salt Lake City, Utah, at Wise Guys Comedy Club March 27th and 28th with Nate Marshall. So please come see that show if you'd like. And I'll be at the Comet in Cincinnati. Not Comet, Ping pong. Just the Comet in Cincinnati on May 22nd and 23rd. So please come to those. That was a little joke there, but I'd like to. I'd really like to see you guys at the show, so please come if you can. Tickets are@sean gardini.com and we also have Optimum Noctis at the Creek in the Cave in Austin, Texas, Me, Nate Marshall, and Lamar Lee every first and third Tuesday of the month. So thank you very much for your time. Pardon the interruption. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[A]

But. But, yeah, the other. And the other thing, too, is like, I. I saw you talking about. God. Who was it? Mozart. That fake letter.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Where like, all of his. So would come to him, like, in this. He'd be in a great mood and they would just start to finish. They would come and all he had to do was kind of write them out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how that was. Everyone believed that was like. Oh, for sure. But it's. It's literally fake.

[B]

Guy worked his ass off. Probably. Like, you do, like. Yeah. I mean, maybe once in a while you're stuck at a red light and you, like, get the seed of an idea. That's quite a good idea.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't know you, but I'm guessing, like, most of the comedy you write, you're, like, sitting there, like, thinking about it and, like, making a little bit better and a little bit better again and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting pissed off with it and throwing it away and, you know, that's. That's how great creators create. They just work. Yeah. There's talent and all that stuff. It's not like anybody could be Mozart.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But even Mozart had to be, like, writing things down, crossing them out. You have to play something. Listen to it.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

That's not good. That's how everybody does it.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's kind of a. You know, when you come to discover. It's like, it really is like, you know, if you want to do something cool in any capacity, usually it's just like, you have to trade your time. Like, you have to trade tons of time and just deal with stuff that, like, sucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So bad. And just keep plotting through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whereas I do think there's. Yeah, there's a thought where it's like I can just link into the AI feed. It prompts. And it's like, I don't, I don't think it's going to produce.

[B]

That's why it sucks to be like on a deadline or in a hurry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you kind of need the luxury to be like, yeah, I've spent a week on this, but it sucks and I don't want to, but I'm gonna have start over. Yeah. You know, and so if you, if you don't have that luxury, you got to go with the thing that sucks, Right?

[A]

Yeah, true that. So, so about the book. We got the Story of Stories. Where'd you. When did you kind of like, you know, because you were talking about things. What made you, what prompted you to switch to thinking about stories?

[B]

Oh, well, it's like I was. So we talk about smartphones and like this year about 90% of the people in the world. In the world own a smartphone. Okay. And that's like 15 of those people are like us in advanced economies. We maybe had computers before that TVs and telephones and all that stuff, but the other like 75% of people, they never had any of that stuff. So you've gone from like not owning a telephone, you know, watching a TV that 10 other families watch on the corner of the street to having a smartphone in your pocket.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So the beginning of the story of stories was like, well, what does that mean? Like, how does that change things? And you know, the way it changes things is this is the first time in human history when anybody can tell stories to anybody. Right. If you have a good story, like you can put it on the Internet, on Facebook or whatever, and if people start sharing it, like very quickly, like it can kind of go all the way around the world. That's never been true. Like, you know, storytelling started about a million years ago because we invented fire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we invented fire and about, you know, similar time, alcohol, drugs and cooking. So you're sitting around a fire, what else is there to do? After you've eaten some food, gotten drunk, gotten high, Right. You start shooting the shit. So that's how language happened. Right? Language didn't give us stories. Stories gave us language. So, you know, you're a million years ago, like your long way human ancestors. And you only know how to like, you know, say, oh, there's a pioneer over there or let's have sex. Right. You've got a few kind of barking sound. But gradually you got to use sound because you can't see, because it's Firelight. So gradually, over a long period of time, you know, you evolve to get good at talking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About tomorrow or something. You remember. Or, like, where the stars maybe came from or whatever. Right. So storytelling is what made us human. Right. And at that time, like, it was like you could talk to like five guys, you know, your buddies around the fire. Right. But then you get like, maybe drawing. Like, you can draw on the wall of a cave or some people can see it, like, even after you die. Then you get stuff like singing, so it makes it really easy to remember a story. And then, of course, writing, printing all the way through to smartphones and AI, it's stories all the way down. Right. So the minute I was like, what the fuck does it mean that everyone's got a smartphone? I kind of went backwards, I guess, down the rabbit hole and ended up with, well, it's all stories. The way to tell the story of what's happening now, everyone's arguing about whether this is true or that is true or this conspiracy theory or whatever that's really being enabled by smartphones. Right. It's all storytelling. Storytelling is deep in our brains because it evolved with us. Yeah. So that's where the story of stories came from. I mean, this is like, I'm kind of a slow thinker. I, like, have to read fucking everything and it takes ages for it to, like, you know, settle in and, like, make sense. And I chase squirrels, I go down rabbit holes, I wake up in the morning, like, how did I get here? But the point was, like, what does it mean about the smartphones, basically? Yeah. And then one thing leads to another. You end up with the story of stories. Because that's the only way I figured out how to answer the question.

[A]

So what, what did you. What in terms of like, a prescriptive, I guess, or if you have one, what do you think the answer to that question is in terms of, like, where it'll go or like, how do you handle yourself in a world where, like, you have a million people telling you a million stories and especially with, like, the deep fake stuff and, you know, that's coming down the pipe.

[B]

I mean, I. I think there's a couple. And I. I can't give you prescriptions. Like, I. But. But what I. What I think is we've got to understand that stories are really integral to how we think about the world. Like, some people think of stories, they're like, oh, I read a book, I saw a movie. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, stand up. Comedy is storytelling. Right. This conversation is storytelling. Right. Most of what we do is storytelling one way or another. Yeah.

[A]

The thing, I'm sorry. The thing from the book that really, you know, I think is cool is the kind of the idea of like, you know, how you're majority. Oh I guess maybe the whole entire thing of your identity is literally just you telling stories or continuing stories like the person you are and to be. And it's like, you know, you were saying too like how you're. All your cells basically die.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Except for your eyeballs and like the

[B]

Just a little bit lizard part of your brain. Yeah. Like a couple of little.

[A]

That's crazy. That's the only thing over your whole lifetime that lives. The entire cells don't die. Just you have your original eyeballs and your little like lizard stem of your brain. Everything else dies, comes back again and again.

[B]

It's all made of food. So.

[A]

And I, I do get that because there's like. Okay, that's fair. So like your physical form is actually kind of coming and going and you're. The thing that's actually sustained is the story you're telling yourself. The only caveat is that there is a form, like a shape to your physical cells and stuff. That's the one thing that does. Well actually. No it doesn't because then you grow and you.

[B]

I mean you went born looking at this man.

[A]

Actually I came out. Exactly. Came out 192 pounds. Like. No, that's fair. That's. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so. And then you can also alter your form. So. Yeah, I'm wrong. So that is kind of cool to think of. Like I was like reading it last night kind of bug. First of all bugging out about people telling stories a million years ago over fire, which is just like, like just like groaning noises to each other and how that becomes basically, you know, that's, that's evolved into where like literally that's how you experience yourself as who you are through stories. And the thing that I really like too is like stories being vehicles of like shame and glory delivery systems where it's like you tell and it happens all the time. The news is like the number one thing where it's like. It's a giant shame. Mostly a shame apparatus where it's just like this person piece of. They suck and it's. You know, and you're listening, you're like, yeah, I hate that guy.

[B]

There's no gray. Right. It's like you're a hero or you're a villain. Yeah, that's his story shaped brain. Yeah. So you Gotta understand, like, that's not how the world actually is. Everybody's kind of like a bit good and a bit bad. And some people are really quite bad and some people are really quite good. But we think in terms of heroes and villains just. Cause all that stuff around the fireside. Right. Cause we're shooting the shit around the fireside, getting high. Well, we're the heroes. Those guys over there, they're the villains. That's just how the brain works. So understanding that is one thing. Your understanding of the world is like 99.9% based on stories that you have heard. Yeah. And most of those stories were based on stories that the person who told you the story had heard and so on. Very little. What we know, we know through our eyes and ears and so on. Right. Yeah, we told it that's unique about humans. So you got to be really, I think, just like you might think about the food that you eat. Right. You kind of got to be a little bit picky about what stories you expose yourself to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also then like, don't just take them at face value, you know, Especially if it's something you want to believe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like if someone tells you your hero, as a hero, you might. That might be the best time to be like, well, I'm going to think about that a little bit harder because there may be another angle here, you know, and this is a challenge, like, because the story of stories, kind of the first wave of it is this one person can tell stories to five people to. Now everybody can tell stories to everybody. Right. That's kind of. We're at the end of that first wave. But what we're seeing now is like, is this story real? Is this. Because throughout human history, you look at this painting, we know that's a painting, we know that's not actually a naked woman sitting right there. But as we move into this world of ever increasing screen revolution, so it looks more and more three dimensional, ever better AI deep fake technology. We're going to reach a point sometime soon when you actually can't tell. Are you looking out of a window kind of thing or are you being told a story like, how real is it, how fake is it? And that critical thinking that we already need to be like, is someone bullshitting me right now?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's got to get a lot sharper.

[A]

Yeah, that's going to be. I was like thinking about that a lot, especially with the Epstein files, because I think that is going to follow whatever the next election, like the, you know, presidential election. I think that's going to be weaponized to try to, like, take the. Either, you know, people trying to take their opponents down with that, which is like, okay, fair enough. But then it's like, we'll be in a place now where you can be accused of horrible stuff as a politician. There could be a video, and you'd be like, that's a deep fake.

[B]

You see that already, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I mean, that was not that long ago. Like, I think Syria was accused of gassing its population or something. And, like, there was video. It's like, oh, yeah, that's all AI, you know?

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's a.

[B]

It's. But it's. It's common. And, you know, I mean, obviously people in the Epstein. I mean, you know, raping kids is bad. Those people suck. They should all go to jail. I'm totally for that. But, yeah, I mean, just on the story of story side of it, the Epstein files exist because of email. Yeah. And there's so much like. Like, you know, this, like, police brutality stuff that we hear about now. Like, that's not new, but you get to see video of it. Like, right now there's like 10 smartphones pointing at it, and they're on the Internet, like, immediately.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's good and bad. With this new technology, we're getting this paper trail. Like, are the Epstein emails fake? We kind of know they're not. Right. Because they just. They look real. Right. And there's so many of them. So. But at some point, yeah, you're going to be showing a cell phone video. This happens now. Like, look what this, you know, this person did. It's going to be B.S.

[A]

yeah, I saw. I saw a video of a bombing recently where like, literally the cars just, like, flew up in the air. And I was like, damn. It was in, like, the Middle east. And it's like, 10 people. Like, this is AI. Not true. And it's like, fuck. That's kind of weird.

[B]

You could generally find some expert online now, though, like, who can explain this is or isn't real.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think. I know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think Netflix has a thing where they. They actually screen. If you give them something, they'll run it through a filter to determine how much AI is in it. If there's too much AI, they're like, we can't use this.

[B]

I was watching a video yesterday. It was like, some guy who was, like, cheating at, like, speed running, you know, like, when you game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, they video themselves, but, like, they'd Analyze, like the mouse movement and they realized, like, the mouse hand was, like, kind of superimposed and it wasn't really there.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, that stuff's already happening.

[A]

This is a scandal. Why is nobody hearing about this?

[B]

Oh, it's. I mean, YouTube, man, tells you everything you need to know, but there's, again, good and bad. Right. You can use this technology for, like, cheating, but there's another guy who can use the technology to tell that you're cheating.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's true. And that's what I wonder too, because again, with, with the, you know, if we go into a realm of just like, like political deepfakes, you don't know what's real, what's not. It's like literally, genuinely impossible to tell. I wonder if, you know, because there is, like, a desire for, like, the truth, like, especially with the Epstein stuff or whatever's going on, like, I want to know exactly what happened. But then it's like, I wonder if people want that kind of access to the truth. If there's going to be some trade off where it's like, all right, we're all going to, like, divulge everything about each other, like, you know, live. We're all on camera 24 7. That way we have, like, we have the truth if we need it. I think everyone would be like, nobody.

[B]

I mean, I'm all right on that. Instagram filters are there for a reason, right. You know, facetune. Nobody wants. They want. They want to make you think. That's what. Yeah, but, yeah, there's. I mean, there's never any proof of anything. Right. There's only evidence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we have to be, you know, we already are because our brains are built this way. But we have to be smart and awake about. Is this evidence real? Does this evidence add up to the story someone's trying to tell me? Why are they trying to tell me this story? Because the other thing, like, if anybody's ever telling you a story, even like in conversation, like, they. Whether they realize they've got an agenda, it's not like, neutral or objective. They're like, they want to get a second date or they want to make you laugh, or they want to impress you, or they don't want you to find out what you did, what they did or something, right? Yeah, always. That's not a bad thing. That's just the way of the world. So you got to be kind of on to like, is this.

[A]

Yeah, that's. No for sure. And it's. It's hard you know, that's kind of a hard thing to do because I feel like a huge part of that is like taking yourself out of the equation as much. Much as possible because it's usually like, what. What version of this makes me look the best? And it's like, well said. Yeah, that's. I think that's what happened. You know, it's hard to like, be aware enough to not do that. But even with like the. Again with the Epstein stuff, it's like, like you said, obviously child rapists are horrible, horrible, horrible things should be punished, you know, beyond even whatever they get. But then the thing I've saw is like, it becomes very almost. I don't know if trendy's the word to be. Like, to ramp it up to the point where it's like we're now controlled people, like, I'm sure of this, by pedophiles entirely who are like eating kids. And it's like. And again, if there's proof of that, it's like, obviously punish that person. But the thing I worry about is like, you do get a charge, like whenever you talk about something like somebody being bad makes you feel good in some way, where you're like, that guy's a piece of. And you know, it's like, how much of it is like, you know, like, if they're a cannibalistic, pedophiles, obviously punish them. But it's like a what if that's not as true as you think. And like, what is that weird ego charge you're getting being like these pieces and like they're in control of the entire world.

[B]

It's like, maybe here are some villains again, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. That's the one kind of thing that I get a little hiff and it. But it sucks. It's like, what are you sticking off? It's like, no, not at all. Like, again, if you catch somebody doing that, like, do whatever you have to do. But it's like when you. There's like a. There's this thing where you ruminate on it endlessly where you're like, what are you. What are you getting out of that? Where it's like, it's kind of sick on both.

[B]

I think it's storytelling again, like, because like, you know, you've got the Pizzagate thing, like this blood sucking Hillary Clinton or whatever that was about. Like, that's a story, that's like a movie. Like, good conspiracy theories are kind of like good movies, right? Or the other way around, right? Real life, even with these heinous Crimes. The other thing about the Epstein files is kind of how tacky it is. You know, these people are, like, cheesy. They're kind of cringy. It's not like an action movie or.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like, you know, it's. What they're doing is horrible and. But also, like, they're just, like, having these tacky kind of email exchanges.

[A]

Really? Yeah. That's the one thing, too. How dorky.

[B]

Oh, I'm addicted to JE. Like, you know, I miss my channel.

[A]

That guy stood right there with.

[B]

Really? Seriously? Oh, shit. Sorry, Sorry. That guy. But like, what the fuck?

[A]

I've been making fun of JE Withdrawals. As soon as I heard it, I was like, oh, man.

[B]

Have you looked in the Epstein files for yourself?

[A]

I have not. No.

[B]

Oh, I have. I'm not in there. I never knew the guy or anything, but, like, he was hanging around MIT when I was. You know, there's plenty of people who, like, they never met him, but he loves science. Oh, yeah. There's a list of, like, you know, names or people presenting at something. But, yeah, I was very close.

[A]

I don't think I was on his radar. Thank God. That was the other thing for the guys again, there's.

[B]

Comedians came out very well. They did. Thank God.

[A]

But, yeah, that's. That's the. Yeah, that's the one thing where it's like, you're totally right. Where, you know, it's like, we have to. Recognizing how deeply stories kind of alter your reality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, one thing to be like, let me sit back. Let me take a breath. Especially. I know myself as. I have my own biases. Like, if I read a thing and I'm. I'm starting to get pissed. I have to, like, train myself to be like, relax, or I'll feel myself. I'll be reading an article, and I'm like, this better not be true. And I'll start, like, trying to right away, pick it apart automatically.

[B]

That's emotion, right? That's emotion and truth. That's that thing. It's like, oh, I'm feeling something here.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's really good to notice.

[A]

But it's hard not to be like,

[B]

yeah, that's possibly what's right. Yeah. I'm gonna share this. I'm gonna comment. I'm not actually gonna, like, read the article because I saw the headline.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's. And that's my thing, too, though, with on the flip side of the conspiracy stuff. It's like, you have some people to be like, if something even Sounds outlandish. They go, well, this is just a crazy. It's like, it could be true, too. I don't know. But it's like, I, you know, I don't know. Either way, could totally. That whole thing about the island of pedophiles was out 10 years ago, and everyone's like, you're out of your mind. And it was true.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, you know, that that's the one thing where I try to just, like, stay as neutral as possible. Where I'm not, like, you know, hoping it's true or hoping it's not. Where it's like, maybe it is maybe, like, you know, and you mentioned Covet in the book. That was the. That was a great example of, like, you know, because again, like, I. My family was just kind of like, whatever, we'll just live life as we see fit. And it seemed fine. And then you'd hear people, like, their half. Their family would die, and it was like, it was crazy, you know, it's kind of nuts, you know?

[B]

Yeah. And that's. That's the thing about stories that, like, really serious. It's like, it changes how we behave. Like, you know, if you believe the Loch Ness monster is real, like, it doesn't really matter, you know, it's not. There's not a dinosaur in a Scottish lake. But, like, you're not hurting anybody. Believe in it. You're not hurting yourself by believing it. But the minute you're like, you know, I don't know, Jewish people are like pedophiles sucking blood. I'm gonna, like, you know, go. Go yell at a mosque or like, I'm not gonna take a COVID vaccine.

[A]

Josh's Instagram.

[B]

Oh, right. People.

[A]

It was just that, like, words. Yeah, I know. And that's. That's the.

[B]

If you hurt yourself or somebody else, that's a bad story.

[A]

Yeah. And especially. Yeah, exactly. And especially, again, it's like just the awareness of being like, what are the odds that, like, you know, I am the one who's like, the good one. I'm the good guy and everyone else is the bad guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's like, again, it's such a case by case basis where it's like I could confidently look at Jeffrey Epstein and go, yeah, I'm good compared to that guy. You know, but it's like when you start, like, grouping in thousands and hundreds of thousands of people and being like, I know what they're all about, you know, it gets kind of.

[B]

This is. This is the Identity being the story you tell yourself. Right. Like, yeah, Jeffrey Epstein is this heinous pedophile.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And God knows what else. Like, you know, bribing, blackmailing, whatever the hell he was doing. That doesn't change who you are, like, one inch.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're not a better person because he was an asshole. Just like, you're not, you know, you're more of an asshole because, like, there's some other. The dude who's like, you know, that's

[A]

a depressingly low bar. I'll tell you what I don't do. I don't, you know, roast kids and eat them and, you know. Yeah, that's. That is kind of a sad thing to get a charge on. We're like, what a piece.

[B]

Any story where, like, you're the hero, someone else is the villain, I mean, it always makes me laugh. Like, you know, you're. You're an Eagles fan, right? You're like, every time you go to a football game, like, the ref makes a call, and if it's for your team, the ref is awesome. Like, the first time I watched a football game, like, I'd only just come to the U.S. i didn't understand football very well, but I was, like, in a. In a bar. It was a snowball game. Like, it was Patriots versus Oakland. And, like, Brady had, like, what looked like a fumble. Yeah. And they said, oh, no, his hand. It was a tuck rule game. And then, you know, Patriots went on to win the super bowl for the first time ever. And, like, Boston, like, yeah, that's. That was great refereeing right there. That was exactly. The rest of the world like that, you know, but you know damn well if that had been the Eagles quarterback, if that been Donovan McNabb. Yeah, that would have been a great call.

[A]

Exactly. If you have. Philly would have literally. I know. It's. It's totally true. You'd be like, no, actually, I. Yeah, that's totally fair.

[B]

Heroes and villains every time.

[A]

Yeah. Especially the big thing, too, is like, you know, the man in a marriage. It's like, I can easily spin a yarn in my head where my wife is completely out to ruin my ent. Entire life, hates me, is genuinely evil. And then literally 10 minutes go by, and I was like, I was being kind of a dick. I should apologize.

[B]

I needed a sandwich. Yeah. But it's also like, post breakup, right? Like, your friends are like, oh, she was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and her friends, like, he was an ass. And it's like, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anytime. Anytime you're the Hero. Everyone else is the villain. And you're really sure about that? That's probably when the, the alarm bells need to ring.

[A]

Yes. That'll be an interesting, you know, I'll be curious to see how people, you know, what they do internally to kind of navigate the landscape because I, I do feel like people are starting to catch on and like relax and not get as triggers. Even like 10 years ago, people, you know, we were like hitting each other with trash can lids in the streets and like, it was. People were pretty inflamed about like political storytelling. And, you know, who's the good guys and bad guys on that side? I, I like to think a lot of the younger people I talk to, like, you know, early 20s, almost take like an ironic kind of stance towards a lot of the political, like getting heated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In general. I don't know if you've ever. There's a, there's a, there's a, like a Instagram video genre called Rage Bait where just like young 20 year olds will walk up to a, you know, about like 56 year old guy and be like, what's up? And it's like. And they're filming it with meta glasses and this guy is like, yeah, I have to fight you now. And they're almost just making fun of this whole idea that like, anyone can be triggered by words to like.

[B]

Oh, that's. Yeah, that's, that's especially a thing in the South. There's like science on, on this, like, I forget what they call it, but like Southern guys are raised, like, if anybody like looks at you funny, you know. Yeah, that's like, that's fighting talk. Right. Whereas in like other parts of the U.S. it's like, I don't give a quite so much. So some of that again, is the stories you get told about who you're supposed to be.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, even on like the East Coast, I remember like, you know, people. I remember I was in Tulsa recently and you know, I'm at, I'm at the bar and we're hanging out after the show and there was this kid who had come to the show and he's, you know, he's just hammering, he's talking to me. And then there's just like this black dude sitting at the bar and he reached over, grabbed the dude's head and went, ah. And shook his head. And I was just like, this guy's gonna punch you in the face. Because it's like, you know, if I were to do that to just like a random black dude In Philly, they would. I. I 100, I think 99.9. They would fight me. Yeah. It's literally like, you just can't do that. And this guy. And I was like. And I, like, he started almost, like, interceding on his behalf, like he said. And the guy was like, oh, he's just having fun, man. And I was like. And, you know, it's not. Even if it was a white guy, it's a similar thing, but it's kind of like, how are you not fighting?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I couldn't understand it. I was like, I would assume you'd be fighting, but there.

[B]

I mean, there are chill people in Philly, too, right?

[A]

There are, but it's not that many. You know that if that had been a bar that someone grabbed someone's head and shook it violently like that in Philadelphia, again, just regardless of race, it would have been, I would have said, a 80% chance of some sort of. At least verbal. It would have been 100 chance of verbal altercation where it's like, what the fuck are you doing?

[B]

Yeah, my money, that age group, too.

[A]

Oh, you're talking like 50, 60, maybe 20.

[B]

Guy was probably a fighter. Like, he probably could have, like, killed the guy.

[A]

He just was like, he's having a good time, man.

[B]

I tell you, if you're in a situation where it gets confrontational, and there's one guy who's like. Like, really chill.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, true.

[B]

He's like the MMA guy.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I'm not trying to be racist, obviously, saying, black people will fight you if you touch it. Well, actually, no, that's kind of true, though. If you touch their heads, they spaz, so stand by the statement. Doesn't sound good.

[B]

I do that, too.

[A]

Like, I don't. Because people touch my face. I. I don't like that at all.

[B]

From London, like, yeah, off.

[A]

Yeah, you can't. Yeah, you can't touch my head. But that was. That is. Yeah, I don't know. That was just something I remember that made me laugh because I remember I, like, interceded on a level where the guy was like, don't worry about it. Relax, man. Like, you don't need to do all this. And I was like, all right, well,

[B]

maybe your set had made that guy so chill.

[A]

May. I think I wasn't at the show. I don't think he was just a chill. He might have been the chillest guy, but I think it is just like. And I was asking people from there, and they were like, yeah, man. Like, you know, we just we fuck around. No one's that wound up around here in Tulsa, like, to that extent. I was like, well, it's a lot different. I'm not used to that. That so. But yeah, man. So what else are you just. You got the book. When's the book coming out?

[B]

Tuesday. Tuesday third. Yeah. Big day.

[A]

Okay, so we'll hold this. We'll hold this. This. We'll have this come out maybe day of, dude. We'll see.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

That'll be nice. And what do you guys. So what's on the horizon now, man? So, you know, you kind of. What are you looking to do? Because I, you know, I. I had you pegged as like a complete technology, you know, technologist kind of. In terms of like, not. Not so much. I thought you were like a die hard computer guy and you're more of just like a curious kind of where will things go guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So where do you think yourself? Could you predict where yourself. Where you're gonna go?

[B]

I hope not.

[A]

What's your. What's your plan?

[B]

Every few years, like, I'm amazed at, like, what's going on, and I kind of like that. But, like, I'm working on a new book.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

You know, I'm promoting this book. I've got into calisthenics.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

You know, my planche and all that stuff. Bloody hard. So, yeah, that's me. I'm like, you know, trying to get my kids to pay me attention now that they're in their twenties. What's that?

[A]

Like, I have a three and a five year old. Oh, yeah. Even imagine them.

[B]

Yeah, they can't either. Like I said to my daughter when she was 12, you know, when you turn 13, you want to hang out with me anymore. She said, no, daddy, I'll never be like that. And like, yeah, you get a text once in a while, which is great. It means they're independent, they're doing their own.

[A]

True, true.

[B]

I mean, they're very impressed that, like, I'm coming on here. Yeah, like, two of my three.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Two of my three. I said, I've been invited on this thing. I don't know what it is. Like, oh, my God. Two of my three kids have met Shane. Nice. One of them has a picture. The one from Philly. She sent me a picture. Hell yeah. So I'm like, oh, okay. You know, so my kids will be in touch with me about this, so thank you.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

That's like, for once, they're impressed. Oh, they're gonna call. Yeah. The book coming out doesn't matter, but.

[A]

Oh, you. You know. Oh, yeah, they're on the. That's.

[B]

You met Matt.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So cool. Yeah.

[A]

That's awesome.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I'll do. Thank you for coming. The book's called the Story of Stories. Kevin Ashton. Appreciate you.

[B]

You. Thanks for having me.

[A]

All right. I'm about to piss my pants. Drank too much water this morning. Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's Secret podcast on Spotify, do. You?