Ep 616 - The Four Heavens (feat. David Stuart)

Summary

Matt and Shane’s Secret Podcast
Episode 616 - The Four Heavens (feat. David Stuart, 05/27/2026)

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Episode Overview

In this intellectually rich and often hilarious episode, Matt, Shane, and Val welcome renowned archaeologist and Mayanist David Stuart. The conversation explores ancient Maya history, culture, language, and archaeology—with a particular emphasis on Stuart’s new book "The Four Heavens: A New History of the Ancient Mind". The hosts and guest dive into Maya writing, the process of decipherment, pop culture misconceptions, and the ongoing impact of history on modern Maya people. Episodic tangents and comedic asides preserve the show’s trademark tone, while Stuart offers fascinating, in-depth insight into ancient Mesoamerica.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. David Stuart’s Background & Early Influences

• David Stuart’s upbringing: Both parents were archaeologists for National Geographic. As a child, he accompanied them to Maya sites in Mexico and Guatemala before major tourism (00:08–01:05).
• Early fascination: “When I was a kid…I just wanted to know more about it…so I just wanted to keep on with that.” (David Stuart, 00:19)

2. Rediscovery of Maya History

• Lost history: Up until the last 50 years, even Maya descendants knew little of their own dynastic history. Whole centuries were lost to time.
• “We’ve kind of gone from 0 to 100 in terms of knowing the names of kings and the dynasties…It’s the oldest history anywhere in the Americas.” (David Stuart, 01:58–03:06)
• Modern Maya communities’ historical disconnect is described as “really sad and something that needs to be fixed and corrected”—hence Stuart’s efforts to share research, including a Spanish-language edition of his book (01:58).

3. Pop Culture and “Ancient Aliens”

• Rejecting pseudoscience: Stuart was invited but declined to appear on "Ancient Aliens" due to the show's manipulative editing and false narratives (03:23–04:10).
• “The whole Ancient Aliens narrative…is just nonsense really. The real human story…is just as compelling.” (David Stuart, 03:29)
• He notes the struggle is historic: “Now we have the history…we have names…They’re not aliens, they’re people.” (David Stuart, 05:02)

4. Written Maya History & Interpreting the Past

• Timeline: Written Maya history dates back to 200–300 AD, just a little later than ancient Greece, and archaeology stretches further (05:18–06:16).
• Limits: Most written records derive from the elite and focus on ceremonial and political matters (“aristocrats…were the ones who were literate”). There are gaps regarding non-elite life.

5. Destruction and Accidental Preservation of Maya Texts

• Diego de Landa: A Franciscan friar who infamously burned Maya books yet also produced a key document describing Maya society and writing—a “double-edged sword” for researchers (07:21–09:36).
• “Without [Landa’s] book…we’d be really up a creek in terms of understanding the Maya. So I have to give him some credit.” (David Stuart, 08:51)

6. Rituals, Sacrifice, and Cultural Context

• Human sacrifice: While common (especially among Aztecs), it was often exaggerated by Spanish sources. Maya sacrifices were real, tied to warfare and ritual, and comparable to gladiatorial executions in Rome (09:44–11:37).
• Cannibalism: Existed but was neither unique nor a constant cultural trait.

7. Spanish Conquest—Fact vs. Myth

• The conquest wasn’t quick—a series of failed expeditions, alliances, betrayals, and battles over several years.
• "Cortez had to…make alliances…the Aztecs who hated the Aztecs. That’s how he was successful." (David Stuart, 12:46–14:52)
• Fascinating figures: Shipwrecked Spaniard Aguilar, who learned Mayan, and Malinche, the multilingual translator. Between their linguistic skills, "Cortez would not have been able to go very far." (David Stuart, 16:43–17:14)

8. Deciphering Maya Writing

• Complexity: Maya glyphs combine phonetic (sound-based) and logographic (symbol-based) elements, making them complex but decipherable with linguistic knowledge.
• Stuart’s own childhood obsession turned into a career: “Instead of Pokemon cards, it was Maya hieroglyphs, you know, for me.” (David Stuart, 19:30)
• By the 1990s, researchers could read 80–90% of Maya texts.

Notable Explanation:

• The glyph "ka" can be represented by a fish or a fish fin. "They’re distracting you—writing the word using the picture of a fish, but that’s just how they do it." (David Stuart, 21:55)

• On Rosetta Stones and false starts: Bishop Landa’s so-called “alphabet” was really a confused list of syllables—complicated by language barriers and mutual misunderstanding (23:37–25:26).

• Hilarious moment: Landa’s frustrated Maya scribe writes “I don’t want to do this anymore.” (Matt, 25:22; followed by laughter)

9. The Oldest Maya Narratives & Game of Thrones Parallels

• Earliest stories: Start around 200–300 AD, with dynastic foundation sagas, rivalries, and dramatic wars.
• "It does become like Game of Thrones, like I said, where you have alliances being forged…there’s a lot of drama." (David Stuart, 31:51)
• Tikal’s conquest in 378 AD marked a pivotal event, its story preserved on Maya monuments. Fun fact: The Tikal ruins featured in Star Wars as "Yavin 4." (30:05)

10. Collapse, Migration, and Modern Legacies

• Maya “collapse” around 900 AD: Dozens of huge cities depopulated; people moved, but the Maya didn't vanish.
• Factors: Environmental (notably drought), political infighting and warfare, unsustainable urban growth.
• “The Maya had a lot of agency in deciding what to do…they decided to leave.” (David Stuart, 36:21)
• Common “ancient astronaut” misreading: The famous “rocket” sarcophagus of Pakal is actually a mythic rebirth scene. (36:52–38:41)
  • “He’s not in a rocket. He’s just emerging out of the Earth…as the sun into the sky.” (David Stuart, 38:34)

11. Archaeological Practice & Looting

• The field involves isolation, heat, bureaucracy, and sometimes finding looters digging for artifacts.
• Stuart candidly discusses the temptation and past occurrence of artifact theft, both by local laborers and earlier archaeologists.
• “There is a dark side…which is…the art market and looting…Sometimes those objects have stories to tell that we can read or we can figure out.” (David Stuart, 43:05–46:59)
• There are far more artifacts than professional researchers: “It’s like having a library of thousands of books and maybe 10 or 15 of us who can read them.” (David Stuart, 47:06)

12. Maya Philosophy, Religion & Cosmos

• Maya and Aztec religions share a preoccupation with cosmic renewal through ritual and sacrifice.
• "Humans have a responsibility to renew things…I think that’s very powerful." (David Stuart, 51:24)
• Stuart recounts participating as a child in a traditional rain ceremony in Coba, summoning the storm god Chak by croaking like a frog at age nine (54:47–54:58):
  • “I was a frog…and I was calling the rain god.” (David Stuart, 54:54)
• The Maya worldview is animistic; gods are often forces of nature. Many beliefs about rain, time, and cosmology persist among contemporary Maya communities.

13. The Animated Cosmos and the Maya Calendar

• Time as animate: The Maya invented an extraordinarily precise calendar, recording historical events to the exact day.
• “A lot of civilizations…may not know the exact day when Tutankhamun died. We know…when [Maya kings] died and were resurrected." (David Stuart, 58:58)
• Base 20 mathematics: The Maya used fingers and toes (20 digits) for calculations, leading to complex, large-scale calendrical systems (60:11–60:38).
• Their mythology describes events “way before our Big Bang…billions and billions of years ago.” (David Stuart, 61:50)

14. Maya Genesis & Mythic Narrative

• Essential myth: The raising of the earth out of the primordial sea by four figures, paralleled in other world mythologies.
• Ritual renewal via monument raising recapitulated creation myths (62:04–63:57).
• Stuart is optimistic: soon, scholars will be able to present Maya mythology as comprehensively as Greek or Egyptian tales.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We have the names of the people who built these monuments. And they're not aliens. They're people.”
  — David Stuart (05:02)

• "No, it's not a rocket ship. He's going in the sky anyway…He's being resurrected."
  — David Stuart, on the Pakal sarcophagus lid (38:34)

• “It was like instead of Pokémon cards, it was Mayan hieroglyphs, you know, for me.”
  — David Stuart (19:30)

• “I was nine. I was a frog…and I was calling the rain god.”
  — David Stuart on being part of a Maya rain ceremony (54:54)

• "It's like having a bookcase or a library of thousands of books, and there may be, I don't know, 10 or 15 of us who can read them."
  — David Stuart (47:06)

• "If anyone wants the book, it is The Four Heavens by David Stuart. Good job."
  — Matt (64:03)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:05 – David Stuart introduces his background, childhood, and passion for archaeology
• 03:23–05:02 – Ancient Aliens, TV distortions, and the real story of Maya civilization
• 07:21–09:36 – Diego de Landa: book burning & reluctant preservation
• 09:44–11:37 – Human sacrifice, cannibalism, and Mesoamerican rituals compared
• 12:27–17:14 – Spanish conquest, translators Aguilar and Malinche, narrative drama
• 17:52–23:23 – The decoding of Maya hieroglyphs: challenges and breakthroughs
• 28:38–31:51 – Earliest Maya dynastic records and their “Game of Thrones” history
• 33:07–36:21 – The Maya “collapse”: migration, drought, and systemic failure
• 36:52–39:46 – The “rocket ship” myth and fighting pop culture pseudoscience
• 43:05–47:06 – Artifact looting, professional ethics, museum legacies
• 47:28–54:58 – Maya philosophy, cosmology, and Stuart’s firsthand ritual experience
• 58:33–61:50 – Maya calendar, base 20 system, and their grand mythological timeline
• 62:04–63:57 – Genesis myth(s) and the future of Maya mythology scholarship

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in making academic subjects approachable and fun. David Stuart brings Maya civilization alive, debunking myths, sharing stories, and connecting ancient and modern worldviews. Matt, Shane, and Val’s energetic curiosity, their tendency to cut through jargon, and their comedic sidebars provide an ideal forum for Stuart’s expertise. Whether discussing the true meaning behind Maya monuments or participating in rain rituals as a child, Stuart’s passion is infectious and illuminating.

Highly recommended for anyone interested in history, ancient mysteries, linguistics, or just a great conversation between comics and a world-class expert.

Transcript

[David Stewart]

Wow. Wow. Wes.

[Matt]

All right, we're live. David Stewart. Thank you for coming, man.

[David Stewart]

Thanks for having me.

[Matt]

I'm pumped, man. I've never met an archaeologist before.

[David Stewart]

Well, yeah, it's a fun job, I gotta say. Do you like to play in the dirt? Absolutely. I love it. I, I, When I was a kid, I decided that was what I wanted to do, you know, and, and luck. I'm really lucky because I can do it as a, you know, grown up.

[Matt]

Well, your parents are both archaeologists too?

[David Stewart]

Yeah, my, my dad and my mom were, were both archaeologists and worked for National Geographic in the magazine, you know, back in the heyday of all of that. So, you know, they took us on trips, me and my, my brothers and sister, you know, that's how I got exposed to this stuff. Was like going to, you know, Mexico and Guatemala, you know, back in the 70s, getting, getting exposed to these fantastic ruins before they were turned into big tourist sites. Yeah, sometimes. Right. And I just caught the bug. I mean, I just wanted to know more about it and, and seeing what my dad was doing, what my mom was doing, I just wanted to keep on with that, so.

[Matt]

Nice.

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, we, by the way, too, we have, we have Val with us here today. Josh couldn't make it. Josh is actually getting, I believe, a colonoscopy, so.

[David Stewart]

Very important.

[Matt]

Yeah, someone's doing, someone's doing some excavating and in his butt, other areas. He's asleep right now. And someone's looking for secrets in his. Deciphering the text. That's pretty cool though, man. So, like, you know, and from reading your book, by the way, the, the four heavens, I have it right here. History, the New history. A new history of the ancient mind. Not the old, not the BS from before.

[David Stewart]

That's right. Yeah.

[Matt]

But from reading your book, it was like back, I guess, when your dad was doing, was kind of amazing. I didn't realize how much of, you know, their history was completely unknown and lost. And I guess there was like, little bits and pieces that kind of struck me about how people were just like, even the people who live there were just like, I don't know, like no one really knew.

[David Stewart]

And this is still kind of the case in terms of people's awareness. Right. So I think it's fair to say it's new in, in terms of not being out there in the public arena. And certainly in, in Mexico, you, you know, there are plenty of Maya people around today, but they don't have much of a sense of their own history. Yeah. And I find that really sad and something that needs to be fixed and corrected. So there's a Spanish edition coming out, you know, and I hope word gets out about this stuff and it gets into the schools and everything. But you're right. When my dad was, you know, an archeologist and working in Maya ruins when I was a kid, there was no history. So we've been through this amazing time in the last 50 years where we've kind of gone from 0 to 100 in terms of knowing the names of kings and knowing the dynasties and how they all, you know, kind of Game of Thrones history of all these different kingdoms and it's the oldest history anywhere in the Americas, which is pretty mind boggling.

[Matt]

That's, that's, that's also crazy because like, you know, you always see stuff and like, I don't know, I always hear things on like TV and YouTube where it's like some claim they go back to like 60 million, you know, something like crazy because I mean, I must have really chapped your ass watching Ancient Aliens back in the day. Did you like that show?

[David Stewart]

You know, I've been asked to be on that show several times.

[Matt]

Really?

[David Stewart]

And you wouldn't play ball about the

[Matt]

outer space travel or.

[David Stewart]

Well, the thing is, I know from experience that, Well, I should say that show to me is just nonsense, really. The real human story of these places and the monuments is, I think, the real story that's just as compelling. But yeah, I mean, I was invited to be on a few of those shows and what I realize from a long time ago is that when you get interviewed for a show like that as an expert quote unquote, um, of course you have no control over how they're going to edit it or how they're going to display what you say or chop you up.

[Matt]

That kind of sucks, actually. You spend your whole life trying to be incredible.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. So I, I've actually had friends and colleagues who, you know, say, yeah, I'll do that, sure, you know, and I kind of get that. Right. You want to, you want to be out there and talk. But then they just kind of, you know, manipulate whatever you're going to say, you know, for their, for their narrative. Right. But yeah, I mean, as, as, as someone who studies the Maya and has been around the people, has been around these amazing sites in Mexico and Guatemala and Belize. You know, the whole Ancient Aliens narrative, it's coming from another place. It's coming from our kind of background in trying to struggle how to explain these places. That's an old struggle. That goes back hundreds of years, actually. But the thing is, now we have the history. This is what people don't realize. We, we have the names of the people who built these monuments. And they're not aliens. They're. They're people.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Stewart]

And they're doing the same stuff we do and they have the same concerns we do.

[Matt]

Yeah. It was kind of cool because it really goes from what you guys have found, it goes almost back. Well, I guess further back or about the same as like, as we know about ancient Greece. Like, it goes like, what do you say, like 200 A.D. i think.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. So the written history we have goes back to about not quite as far as ancient, you know, classical Greece, but let's say to about 300, 200 AD. Okay, that's pretty far back. Yeah, I mean, it's 1200 years before Columbus. And the archeology goes back further than that in terms of seeing what people are doing on the ground and, you know, tracking how they develop over time. So we, we hit the story kind of midstream in terms of being able to read about what they're writing, about what's preserved. And that's where we have to kind of fill in the blanks in terms of stuff they didn't write about. Maybe they didn't write about their economic situation and they didn't write about what was going on in their world beyond just the aristocrats. They were the ones who were writing and the ones who were literate. So it's what we have. I think it's super exciting, but it's not the whole picture.

[Val]

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[Matt]

Yeah. And then, you know, I guess there was the. I've, like, heard about this guy, Diego de Landa.

[David Stewart]

Right.

[Matt]

Who burnt all the books.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, did you ever just like, sit at night and like, just kind of like, do you ever really get mad at that guy? Because he kind of did like, ruin the whole thing. He.

[David Stewart]

He ruined a lot. Yeah. So. So this guy, he was a Franciscan friar who later became the bishop of Yukon Katan back in the 16th century. And he, you know, he's vilified because he burnt a lot of the Maya books and smashed their, you know, what he called the idols and so forth. And he caused a lot of damage. In a way, he was doing his job at the time. That's what they were there for. We've lost a lot of culture and a lot of history, indigenous culture because of that. But there's one thing I will say about Landa. He was, in a way, a curious figure. He was curious about the stuff he was trying to stamp out, which sounds a little weird, but he wrote this book that is basically a compilation of facts about the world of the Maya before the Spanish ever arrived.

[Matt]

I have that book in my house. I just, like, happened. I didn't. You know, it was funny when I was reading your book, I'm like, oh, I have that. I read like a little bit of it.

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And yeah, it does kind of does strike you as he was like, recounting whatever history had.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. He was talking to people and he was getting. These are unique accounts that we have. And without his book, this manuscript that was just found randomly back in the 1800s, know, in a. In a library in Spain, without Landa's book, we'd be really up a creek in terms of understanding the Maya. So. So I have to give him some credit. Despite the fact that he did a lot of damage at the time, like most Spanish priests of that era, it was this kind of give and take. I mean, they were trying to stamp out the. The idolatry, the non catholic, you know, rituals they were seeing. But they were. They were almost like anthropologists of their time. They were. They were writing down stuff that otherwise would just be lost.

[Matt]

Yeah. And what was like the.

[David Stewart]

Was.

[Matt]

I remember I read about Cortez and the Aztecs, and there was like the ritual human sacrifice. Was that the Mayans was that kind

[David Stewart]

of like they did some of that? Sure. Maybe not on the scale of the Aztecs, or at least on scale of what the Spanish talk about for the Aztecs Some of that's exaggerated.

[Matt]

Yeah, I've heard that.

[David Stewart]

But sacrifice was real. It was part of their. In Mesoamerica in general, we study that, we acknowledge it. One of the things about sacrifice that's hard for us to think about is that. And here I'm kind of thinking about examples that I have come across in my own research. For the Maya, for example, there were rituals like executions of war captives. And that's kind of cross cultural. I mean, we call that sacrifice. Yeah, but it's like a Roman gladiator, you know, arena.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

Or, you know, which is very like performative and very ritualized. But it's a way of, kind of dealing with your enemies and your captives and this kind of, this way of going about executing them.

[Matt]

Right, Yeah. I mean, that's like pretty. I would say that's pretty common. I mean, even the Spanish were like cutting people's heads off, hanging on sticks. I was. I think the cannibalism thing is what gets people kind of. If they were. I don't know if they were munching, but if you're also just munching.

[David Stewart]

I think there was some of that in, in ancient Mesoamerica.

[Matt]

Yeah, for sure.

[David Stewart]

In the Americas, it's. It's in a lot of places in the world.

[Matt]

I don't hold it against them. I mean, it was a long time ago.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. No, it's. It is hard to wrap our heads around in some ways. But the, the indigenous people in the 1600s and 1500s were also recounting their own background and their own histories. And they sometimes talked about that. Yeah. Or drew pictures of it. And some, some scholars today dismiss it as exaggeration. I think it actually did happen. Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, it makes sense. I mean, even when they. Because I, you know, like when Cortez got there, he was, he, he hit the Yucatan first, so I think. Didn't he interact with the Mayans or

[David Stewart]

something for the Aztecs? He got to the Yucatan, right? Yeah.

[Matt]

And a lot of, A lot of the. There was two other expeditions that got pretty much thwarted. The Spanish, Spaniards before him. Right.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. That era is so interesting. You know, these crazy expeditions, these guys who would just head off into the, into the horizon not knowing where they were going. Yeah. And. And the early expeditions, you know, they hit the coast of Yucatan and they didn't know where they were or they didn't expect to see mainland right there. And the Maya are there and. Yeah, they have these battles. The, The Spanish more often than not get trounced.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

They have to head back to Cuba and. And then try again. And then they go back and try again, and eventually Cortez.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

Gets his group together.

[Matt]

Finally does it. Yeah, that was. That was the one thing you always hear about Cortez where the, you know, popular consensus people say is like, oh, he just, like, showed up and he tricked the guy and they handed it over to him. It was like. No, it was a pretty long, kind of like, gruesome, protracted battle for, like. I mean, it was like years.

[David Stewart]

Years. Yeah. I mean, the whole story of that, of Cortez's adventure. I. You know, I'm still waiting for the big Hollywood epic movie of this, because it's one of the greatest stories in all of history. It has a lot of painful parts to it, for sure. It has a lot of drama, but you can read firsthand accounts of it, too, that not only Cortez wrote, but one of his soldiers wrote this amazing firsthand book of his memoirs of that encounter. And it's like a science fiction novel. Yeah, it's like. It's like these guys landing on another planet and they have to go through this process. And it's long. Like you say, it took years for Cortez to arrive on the shore of Mexico and then to overthrow the Aztec empire. Yeah, not a lot of years. It was kind of a short time in, you know, two, two and a half years. But. But even after that, it took a while to kind of solidify their. Their presence there and to establish, you know, New Spain is what they called it. So that. That story is one of not just the Spanish coming in and beating people over the heads. Cortez had to, you know, there were just a few hundred guys at most. They had to make alliances with people. The Aztec, who hated the Aztecs. That's how he was successful. Yeah. You know, the. The. The. There was this city state called Tlaxcala. It's now a beautiful town in Mexico, not far from Mexico City, but that was the center of a kingdom Cortez passed through. It actually warred with them. Eventually they realized, hey, they could together fight the Mexica, the Aztecs, you know, the. Of. Of Tenochtitlan. And so that's a whole drama. That's whole. That's part of this story. Right. And. And, yeah, I just find it amazing. I. I always, you know, go back and read excerpts of that story just because it's. It's. It reads like a novel. It's like high drama.

[Matt]

It's. It's really is kind of Amazing. Especially with the.

[Shane]

Who was the.

[Matt]

I think Aguilar was the guy who got, like, stranded out there. Father Aguilar got, like, stranded and, like, lived among them, spoke the language, and, like, happened. You know, he was a slave for, like, six years.

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And then just so stumbled upon. That's, like, the most. That's the one story I'm, like, surprised no one's ever done.

[David Stewart]

Well. Right. This is another movie that someone has to make. In fact, I think there's scripts that have been.

[Matt]

That's cool.

[David Stewart]

Bandied about in Hollywood for a while about. About that story and, of course, Cortez. But the Aguilar story. Yeah. So Cortez, when he first arrives on the coast of Yucatan, the Maya that they are in contact with realize. Wait a minute. We've seen one of these weirdos before. He was, like, floating in a boat. And the Maya realized, oh, there's the slave who's one of these bearded, you know, white guys who speaks the same language. Right. And so they. They get him. They bring him in and communicate. And it turns out it was the shipwrecked Spanish sailor who by that time was fluent in speaking Maya. And eventually he links up with Cortez. Cortez now has someone who can communicate for him. Without that, Cortez would not have been able to go very far. But the other part of this, it's an amazing story. Eventually, they link up with another Maya kingdom, you know, and interact with them. And this is where Malinche comes from. This is the woman who eventually becomes Cortez's mistress.

[Matt]

Yeah. He strangles his life for. Right.

[David Stewart]

She's a princess. She speaks Maya, and she speaks the language of the Aztecs.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

So between those two, Aguilar, and between the Spanish sailor and. And Malinche, they can actually converse. And. And. And Cortez is a master manipulator. Right. That comes across in all these stories, and he's talking to the Aztec emperors and, you know, through these two, and they're actually having conversations. So it's just amazing to me that that all came together.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

You know, and it was just by chance in some ways, but. But again, that's part of how extraordinary this story is.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I thought in your book that, you know, the part of it I never even thought about was like. And I thought was pretty cool that you document. It was like, the effort it took to decipher those, like, Mayan symbols and text. And I still don't understand you're saying, like.

[Shane]

Because you get.

[Matt]

They're like, hieroglyphs, they're phonetic, but also they like. That was something I was like trying to wrap my head around where they have like sounds almost like a consonant, but then it's also just like a pictogram where it's like, this is the thing. And I don't know, that was like throwing me off. I don't know how you guys did that.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, it is a little confusing. And so this is my, my specialty, this is what I work on more than anything else is, is decoding my

[Matt]

hieroglyphs so you literally like can look at this. And that's like, that's my drawing.

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know what this means?

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Out here. Dude, that's crazy.

[David Stewart]

And it's beautiful stuff, right? I mean visually it's really, it's really cool. Cool looking and that actually this is one of the things that drew me in as a kid because my dad, I remember asking my dad, you know, he was finding in, in like the, in the 70s when we were, you know, working in, in this Maya site called Coba, which is near Tulum. I remember a couple of times he found new carved tablets and they had hieroglyphs on them. And I would say, dad, what is this? What does this say? And he's like, I don't know, nobody can read them. And that caught me. I was like, that's interesting. And so I was really intrigued. They looked like cartoons. They looked like I was a bored 9 year old also, like, I was like crazy. I just, you know, I just started drawing them and copying amount of books that my dad had just been kind of interested in what they were. It was like instead of Pokemon cards, it was my hieroglyphs, you know, for me, something like that. So, you know, that's what caught me. And, and I got kind of obsessed with them and was asking people that my dad knew and they were like, well, we can't read these. So it turned out that I was seeing some new patterns that other people hadn't seen. There were other people who I got to know who were also kind of on the cutting edge of stuff. And by the 80s 90s, there were a handful of us who were these young. Some people called us the Young Turks. We were these up and coming guys who knew that we were onto something and we knew we were making inroads. And so that was a heady time. I was so lucky to time my entry into this world that way. And my dad was sort of like, he wasn't involved, he wasn't pushing me into any of this. It was just my own kind of interest. And he was like, hey, that's great what you're doing. And I think he was a little weirded out at times that we were deciphering things right and left. All of a sudden you. The words for names of kings and the word for chocolate, which is written all over the vases.

[Matt]

They didn't know avocado was a Mayan term either. That kind of threw me for a loop.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, well, avocado is. We borrow that word from Nahuat, which is the language of the Aztecs.

[Matt]

That's what it was. It was an Aztec. That's pretty insane.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. So a lot of these words for foods. Cacao is a Maya word, so that's written in hieroglyphs. And to go back to your question, though, Matt, about the sounds and the pictures. Yeah, they're elaborate looking, but when you cut to the chase, they're spelling words and they're writing them as sounds so you can. The visuals distract you. It's like Egyptian too, in that way. Right. We see pictures of human figures and birds and stuff, stuff like that in Egyptian. But they're also phonetic. There's just. You have to know the language to read it. So, you know, we really perfected our ability to read the language behind the hieroglyphs. And it's a language we can connect to the languages spoken today in that area. And by, by the mid-90s, I would say we could read maybe 80 or 90% of modern my texts.

[Matt]

That's crazy. Especially when you. The one thing if, if I have this right, was like, you can have different symbols. Similar symbols, but different for the same sound. Which I was like, dude, that's pretty true.

[David Stewart]

It gets crazy because. And this is what I helped kind of work out was just how ridiculously complex the visuals are compared to the actual system. So you can. If they wanted to write the word cacao, okay, for. That's for chocolate cocoa, they will write that with sounds. Kaka wah. Three hieroglyphs. Now this is a great example because as it turns out, you can write the sound ka one of a couple of ways with two different kind of pictures. One of them is a fish and the other one is this thing that looks like a little comb hair comb, but it's actually the fin of a fish. So it's the same sign. But anyway, it's. They write it as a fish and the fish is like, what does that have to do with chocolate? Well, it's because the fish is the sound Kai word. The word for fish is kai. Right. So that's where they get the sound. So what, they're. They're distracting you, writing the word, using the picture of a fish, but that's just how they do it. And so if you. If you sweep through, get past all the artistic sort of bells and whistles. Yeah, there's a lot of them. You get down to the words. And. And that's. That took a long time to figure out.

[Matt]

Yeah, I was, you know, I was shocked, you know, that. I mean, obviously it makes sense, but. And there was the. So was there like a definitive kind of like. Like deciphering codex that kind of like, made everything like the Rosetta Stones, like, that big?

[David Stewart]

Yeah, well, the. The folks in Egypt had it easy compared to us in some way, so we didn't have a Rosetta Stone. And. And that was, of course, the key in the 1800s for reading Egyptian. We had some help. One of the things that helped us was going back to Bishop Landa in his book. He had. And this is pretty funny, he had a. What he called the. The Alphabet of. Of. Of the. Of the Maya people. Right. And it's like A, B, C, D, E. And. And it's crazy because they didn't have an Alphabet, but. Yeah, London didn't get that. He didn't understand. He was like, well, if they're writing, they must have an Alphabet. Right? What. What London didn't realize is that he was writing down Maya glyphs for the sounds that makes sense of the letters as they're pronounced in Spanish.

[Matt]

Gotcha.

[David Stewart]

So obey, say, day. Right. Funny. Those are syllables.

[Matt]

Right. Isn't Spanish, like a notoriously phonetic language itself? I remember in Spanish class, they're like, however you look at this, this is how you pronounce it pretty much for the most.

[David Stewart]

Well, it's pretty. The phonetics of it are pretty straightforward, you know, as an alphabetic thing. You know, it's. It's. The vowels are all pretty consistent and stuff. Yeah. So Londa was. Was clearly flummoxed trying to describe. He called it, actually, this cumbersome writing that the. The people have here in Yucatan. And he couldn't get it. What he didn't realize was the. The guy he was working with, the Maya guy who was writing down all this stuff for him, they were just talking past each other. They had no idea what each other was asking or providing.

[Matt]

I saw that in your book at one point. At one point, the guy literally just said, I'm tired. I don't. Yeah.

[David Stewart]

He writes down this. Is this is hilarious. He writes down in the manuscript, which means, I don't want to do this anymore.

[Shane]

That's really funny, actually.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. Because they're just like, he's. He's like, I'm out here.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Shane]

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[David Stewart]

Me?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

Who?

[Val]

Me?

[Matt]

Stinking Lincoln.

[Val]

I got. Yeah, just the stinking Lincoln. July 17th. Please come to Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia. It's the most important moment of my life.

[Matt]

Yeah, that'll be nasty.

[Val]

And if it doesn't go well, I'm gonna leave this earth. I'm gonna get pyro underneath the stage and I'm gonna tell them. Go ahead. Yeah, just send it.

[Matt]

Flame me.

[Val]

I'm out.

[Shane]

Guys. I picked up some comedy club dates.

[Matt]

All summer long.

[Shane]

We're going to be having fun together. I'll be six, five. June 5th and 6th. I'll be at the Summit City Comedy Club, Fort Wayne, Indiana. And that is. That's in just a few weeks.

[Val]

I ran into a buzz over there.

[Matt]

Did you really?

[David Stewart]

Yeah. Would you. What happened?

[Matt]

Just an absolute negative experience.

[Val]

People were just hammered. It's a fun club.

[Shane]

Yeah, that'll be. I'll be there in the Dog Days of the Summer, Levity Live, Huntsville, Alabama. The Stardome Comedy Club, Birmingham. I'm excited for that. And Spokane Comic Club, Spokane, Washington also. It's not up yet, but I have a bunch of more dates, so check them out on McClusken.com.

[Val]

goodbye.

[Matt]

Hey, so what's the earliest in terms of, like. Because, you know, that was kind of cool reading about how they figured out how to kind of transcribe everything. What was like, the earliest story they have that you guys can look back on that has some, like, narrative arc or.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. So the earliest story of history that we can tap into is really the beginning of these many dynasties. We're talking about the area that's now northern Guatemala, southern part of Yucatan. We can tell that there are a lot of these great cities that are starting up. Some of them are being abandoned. There's all these cycles of rises and falls. But there's this era around 200, 300 AD when these dynasties kind of start up. And they're often connected with each other, they're often rivals with each other. And we can start to read names of kings. We can start to read some narratives about what they're doing. One of the big, big episodes of Maya history that we know about now today was in the late 300s, in 378, there was this war. It was a conquest of this really amazing city in Guatemala we know of today as Tikal major site. In fact, Tikal is the rebel moon base. In the first Star wars movie, George Lucas filmed the scene of the Millennium Falcon taking off from the jungle. I don't know if anyone remembers that scene.

[Matt]

That's crazy.

[David Stewart]

Yavin 4, I think it is in Star wars, right? That is Tikal. So he filmed it there. Anyway, fun fact, the in 378, the king of Tikal was conquered by these outsiders who were coming all the way from central Mexico. They were coming from a place called Teotihuacan, which is up near Mexico City. And they had had a long relationship. Clearly there's this long, long distance intermarriages and stuff. But there came a point where something happened where they had to take this guy down. And so they go hundreds of miles into Guatemala to conquer him. And that sets off this whole other thing so that history really picks up, let's say in the fourth century. Then we have a lot of detailed records after that for about four or five hundred years of just. We have thousands of text. We can read about hundreds of different actors and players in this drama with a lot of different kingdoms. And it does become like Game of Thrones, like I said, where you have alliances being forged, those alliances often are being turned around, and they're turncoats and they're wars in between cousins and so forth. So it becomes this really dynamic world that, you know, again, 30, 40 years ago, we couldn't talk about any of this. That's what's exciting. Yeah. And now we can match up the. The places that we're reading about with the actual sites that, you know, we are exploring in the jungle. So that's also really cool. We can match up the name of this ancient place to this site.

[Matt]

Oh. So, yeah. You know exactly where it was. And it wasn't like. I don't know if this is because of that, but that was. I was kind of struck by how a lot of the history comes from just. It was, like, written on the walls of buildings.

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So, yeah, like, the buildings themselves held pretty much the history, which is.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, a lot. A lot of official stuff. Just like, you know, we do in a way. Right. We. We have monuments and in our parks and so forth with some official historical records. But, yeah, I mean, we're. We. We have. They wrote a lot. Right? They wrote a lot and carved it on stone. Otherwise we'd be up a creek. Yeah, Right. Because it doesn't. It doesn't preserve in the jungle. Yeah, they. They wrote on pottery. Ceramics. So we have a lot of that stuff. We don't have anything written on paper from that era. Yeah. Because it's not going to preserve.

[Matt]

Yeah, true.

[David Stewart]

We. The. The stuff we have, the books we have. Which is amazing. Those are much later. Right. The Spanish actually collected those.

[Trimfya Ad Voice]

Okay.

[David Stewart]

So, yeah, we're lucky to have what we have is the way I look at it.

[Matt]

And they. So were they like a. That was the one thing I was trying to figure out, too. Were they like a transient? Like, they would build these giant, like, you know, cities basically, and then they would just, like, abandon them. Is there any idea why they would do that was like a famine thing or they just would do that?

[David Stewart]

Well, this is a huge question, and this is the thing that I think a lot of people think about when you think about the ancient Maya is this idea of collapse. And I often get this question, like, well, what happened to them? Because, you know, didn't they disappear? And that's a common narrative out there that the Maya. Ancient Maya just disappeared, which is kind of problematic because the Maya are still around. So as a people, they didn't disappear. But what did disappear is that around 900, 800 to 900 AD. A lot of their cities, some of them really large with tens of thousands of people, they collapsed. We call this the Maya collapse. This is a question that we as archaeologists and academics have been struggling with for a long time. What happened? So Tikal, okay, the Star wars moon base place, that's a good example. Huge city, 80,000 people, maybe even a hundred thousand people who are living there, something like that. In the general area, between about 800 and a thousand. You're going from a vibrant city to nobody really living there. And it gets to be overgrown with jungle and then explorers find it. In the 1800s, what happened? So this is this idea of a lost city. This is really where it comes from. It comes from the. Yeah, Maya, you know, explorers in the 1800s and I mean, talk about romantic exploration, you know, hacking your way through the jungle. Very Indiana Jones. Yeah. And here's a hundred foot high pyramid that no one has explored before. I mean, that's the reality of early days of my archeology. So this fed into this question, what happened? It fed into a lot of crazy ideas about maybe what happened, that they disappeared. Well, they did disappear from those places. They moved on. So one of the things I'm writing about in the book is, you know, what factors went into this. I think there were tipping points. It had to do with climate for sure, because we have records of drought. We know that water was hard to come by in these places. It still is. Yeah. So you can understand how these tipping points might come up. But big populations basically couldn't sustain themselves in some of these places. And I think also the political system kind of fell apart. We can also track in the records the last hundred years of this era was there was so much warfare and there had always been conflict and you know, like any, like medieval history, but you see it ramping up and in the last few decades there it's just incessant warfare. And I think the system just breaks down. Yeah, yeah. So I think the Maya had a lot of agency in deciding what to do. The people and I think they just voted with their feet and decided to just left, go off to do other things.

[Matt]

True. Yeah.

[David Stewart]

And so this is one of the things that I really want to try to do in my narrative about this is that it wasn't like some external thing that came, you know, UFOs with beams taking people away. It's that the Maya were going through a crisis and they had to make some very, very hard decisions, no doubt to do something about their dire situation. In many places. And they decided to leave.

[Matt]

Have you seen the hieroglyph of a guy who's like. Looks like he's in a rocket ship? Looking up, though, that was the only thing I remember from ancient aliens. They would show that 100. Oh, yeah, they keep showing, dude, he's in a rocket ship. He took off, right?

[David Stewart]

So this is the famous or infamous image of a Maya rocket. That is actually a lid of a coffin of a sarcophagus of a great ruler whose name was Kinichana Pakal. And he ruled a place that we know today as Palenque. Beautiful, beautiful site in Mexico. And, yeah, when they found his TOMB in the 1950s, you know, this beautiful coffin with this carving, there were. There was kind of a interesting situation after they found it. Of course, nobody could read the hieroglyphs, right. In the 50s or 60s, there were all these texts around the coffin. It wasn't until the 70s that we could sort of read the name. Maybe in the 80s and 90s we could read actually what it was saying. It was talking about this great king, his birth date, his death date, all of his ancestors kind of waiting for him in the afterlife and all this stuff. The scene on the top is of Kinitana Pakal, the king. He is kind of taking off in a way, Right. But what he's doing is he's raising as the sun in the east. He's being resurrected. And he's not in a rocket. He's just emerging out of the Earth out of the kind of this maw, this cave, rising up as the sun into the sky. And it's a really elaborate imagery, but that's, in essence, what it is. That's really cool. Not a rocket ship, but not a rocket ship. He's going in the sky anyway.

[Matt]

Yeah, I remember just that must have. You know, I was watching that as, like, a perpetually stoned young boy, something being like, I knew it. This is awesome. It must have been driving you nuts to watch TV and be like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this right now?

[David Stewart]

I know. Yeah, it does drive me nuts because, you know. Well, here's the thing, right? Those narratives. And it's not long before Ancient Aliens, long before that show, right, There were movies. Eric Von Donegan, in his book Chariots of the Gods.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

Talking about all this stuff in the 70s. That was at a time when no one could come up with a counter narrative. Right. So that takes hold. It fills a void. Right. To explain this stuff.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

And now we can explain it. So this is the conundrum that I'm facing is, you know, we do understand it culturally, historically, but it is hard for us to fight against, you know, ancient aliens, which is on TV almost every night.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

Or, or whatever. Right. That, that's what people, the people who are curious about this stuff, genuinely curious, don't have a whole lot to go to to understand it. And they may come up with a show like Ancient Aliens and that's like, oh, okay, that must be the consensus view or something like that. Right? Yeah. Not knowing that any archaeologist thinks that's bs. Yeah. We're just not very good at communicating with the public, to be honest. You know, what we do know. Yeah. And I'll be the first one to say that academics are terrible at communicating some of the realities we think are, you know, that are out there in terms of history and culture. So, I mean, this book, I hope, is a, A small effort to, you know, tell what's really going on, to explain some of what we think we know.

[Matt]

That's pretty. So in terms of like the, you know, being an archaeologist and like, kind of like the, I guess like the day to day, like, I just like. Do you ever have people? Because it is, you know, you're out there, you're digging. Like, do you have people who like break stuff all the time and like, how do you deal? That must be, that must be like, really tough, like really high stakes of like a. Yeah, yeah.

[David Stewart]

It's. So archeology is. Well, it is a lot of fun. You're out in the, in the boonies, often living in a camp with a bunch of people for months at a time. That's what I was doing in my younger days at least, you know, in, in remote places. And it is a little crazy. I mean, you're, you're studying this ancient stuff, but you're also kind of isolated. And I just remember living in the jungle before there was any Internet or anything like that. You kind of go bananas. Yeah. But also.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

When you're digging, not necessarily a big pyramid or something, let's just say you're digging a ancient house and it might be a pile of rocks. It's a couple of feet high, you know, platform in the jungle. There's pottery everywhere. There's a lot of stones, you know, wall stones. It's boring. Maybe even for a specialist it can be kind of boring. You know, you don't find cool things every day. Maybe once in a while there's something. And usually in my experience, the coolest stuff is discovered when there's like two days left, really season, and you're like, oh, what do we do? Like a tomb, you know, royal tomb or something. Yeah, this is typical, right? Because, you know, after you dig deep in a lot of time passes, then you find the cool stuff. So it can be stressful that way. If you find something special, there's a lot of bureaucracy involved.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

You have to let people know what you found in the government.

[Matt]

Yeah. They try to take it.

[David Stewart]

And you mean it. You mean you'd get guards down to protect it.

[Matt]

I was wondering about the theft because I, I imagine it's like you guys have a pretty decent sized crew digging, you know what I mean? So, yeah, I would imagine, you know, if I was just there digging that wasn't an archaeologist, I would definitely snag like an old mug or like, I, you know, you'd want to. Right.

[David Stewart]

Well, I know for a fact that stuff does get taken by the, the laborers we sometimes have or, you know, back in the old day, archaeologists were notorious themselves for taking stuff, you know, in a way that probably at the time maybe didn't seem unethical. But, you know, 100 years ago, archaeologists working in Mexico, you know, you'd go to their archives and you'd actually find artifacts that they brought out. You know, you wouldn't do that today.

[Matt]

No.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, but what's the penalty?

[Matt]

You just get like, lose your, like, license. Like, how do you.

[David Stewart]

Well, yeah, nowadays it's. As a professional archaeologist, you. All artifacts have to be cataloged. You have to report them to. If you're working in a foreign, foreign country, of course you have to report everything you, you have and that you found. But, you know, there are. There. There's a dark side to all of this too, which is like the art market, in the market and looting ancient sites, and that's what we're often fighting against, sometimes directly, you know, looters in the, in the field. I've come across gangs of looters in northern Guatemala who are tunneling into pyramids looking for tombs.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's my next question. What do you do for. I guess you just said you get security around the site. Because I'd be kind of like, nervous. I was out in the woods. Yeah, Guatemala, and I'm digging precious artifacts. I would assume someone's gonna be like, yeah, let me get that. Yeah, yeah. No, tunnel underneath the.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. Well, this is what we do too, as archaeologists. We have to tunnel into. If the building is large enough and stable enough, that that's the best way to understand its History is to actually start digging a tunnel. It's like you're mining into a pyramid. And the looters do the same thing. So the irony of a lot of this, too, is that the guys that archaeologists have trained to dig, when we go home, they don't have a lot to do necessarily. And they're like, hey, let's go. We know how to dig these things now. Yeah. And they go to town and. And so this actually is what happened a lot in the 70s and 80s. Like, there isn't an ancient Maya building in northern Guatemala that doesn't have a trench right through it. Mostly by looting. Yeah, yeah. And it's really sad, but a lot of the stuff you see in museums today in the States, fantastic Maya pottery or whatever, a lot of that's not dug by archaeologists, but found by looters, sold on the art market, collected by either museums or private collectors. I understand that because it's beautiful stuff. I mean, if I had the money and wasn't an archaeologist, I understand. I'd love to have a Maya chocolate vase in my living room. Yeah. So there's. There's that constant struggle. Right. There aren't enough archaeologists to go around, and there are a lot of people who are really interested in digging this stuff up who maybe aren't scientists. And you know what's interesting is that all of this kind of becomes this big mix. It becomes this way of. Of. Of accessing the ancient past. It may not always be through archeology, but I'll tell you, the stuff in museums now that maybe doesn't have any context to it or. Or we don't know where it's from exactly. Sometimes those objects have stories to tell that we can read or we can figure out, we can reconstruct it. And. And so that's part of it too. Right. I do a lot of work in museums instead of digging in the dirt because. And there's still not enough of us doing this kind of research, frankly. So it's overwhelming. Yeah.

[Matt]

You're saying there's just, like a ton of stuff that's been found, and it's just the matter of taking the time to decipher.

[David Stewart]

Right.

[Matt]

Figure out.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. We have thousands of. It's like having a bookcase or a library of thousands of books, and there may be, I don't know, 10 or 15 of us who can read them. And, you know, we have jobs and other things we're doing. So, yeah, it. There's a lot of work still to be done to figure this stuff out.

[Matt]

So in terms of, like, you know, do you guys have a good sense of, like, what the Mayans, I guess, like, philosophy, the religious worldview was, and, you know, where. Where were they at and how do they compare to, like, Aztecs? Or is there. Is there, like, big differences or.

[David Stewart]

Great question. So we do know a lot about Maya philosophy and religion. I think it's hard to distinguish those things.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[David Stewart]

And it is a lot like the Aztecs, because they're all part of this same kind of Mesoamerican world, which is sort of like, you know, think of Greece and Rome or the Mediterranean world, where a lot of those myths and religious ideas are kind of the same, but maybe with different flavors, same idea. One of the things that excites me, and I'm thinking of my next book, actually, a little bit, is one about this, about Maya religion and philosophy, because as much as we can read about kings and wars and dynasties, we can also read about their gods and about their outlook on the world and their cosmology. And the Maya of today have a lot of the same ideas about, you know, the way the sun moves around the sky and how that creates this kind of overall structure of the universe. And that structure is reflected in a lot of other things. There's this really elegant cosmology to these folks, and it's not just the Mesoamerica. I think a lot of it is indigenous American about the structure of the world. And they were observing their world just like scientists do. Like, they didn't have the tools of modern science, but they were smart, and they could see how the world was working, the patterns of the seasons and of time and of agriculture and this sort of cadence of the world around them that. That. That's what created their philosophy. It's rooted in. Literally rooted in kind of the earth and the sky. And not to get too abstract about it, this is stuff that really I find fascinating because it's like an archetype. It's like one of these things that a lot of cultures share, even beyond the Americas. I mean, if you go to traditional societies in China or philosophy there in Asia, in Africa, you see a lot of the same ideas about cosmology and structure that, I don't know, we've kind of forgotten some of this stuff in our world. But I don't know, if you're a farmer in a traditional society and you're relying on the seasons and you're relying on. On how the sun works and how it moves in the rain, I mean, that creates a template that's kind of universal in the human experience, I think. And so I'm kind of interested, I don't know a ton about outside Mesoamerica, but I'm really interested in kind of probing those deeper ideas. Not that people were sharing those ideas, but I think they're old. I think they're just really fundamental about, about existing on the, on the earth and, and we can tap into it. So that's pretty cool.

[Matt]

Yeah, I, from, from just like the

[Shane]

little bit I read about the Cortez and the Aztecs. There was this idea with the Aztecs

[Matt]

that like, if they didn't complete the sacrifices, like that blood, the blood was like some universal life force that they would like, you know, display to a of piece the gods. And if they didn't, the skies like would literally crash down and like there was like a balance held by all this stuff that if they didn't do the rituals, right, it would just look like the sun would fall out of the sky, just everything would fall apart.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, yeah. But this is part of a bigger idea of, of renewal. It's all about renewing the world. And sometimes it involved the offering of one's own blood in bloodletting or sacrifice. It could also involve lots of different transactions with the forces of nature to ensure renewal. So if you step back a bit and look at the bigger picture, there is a philosophy behind it, right. Which is that humans have a responsibility to renew things. I think that's very powerful. We don't do that in our world necessarily. Right. We kind of do the opposite of that. But in this pre industrial whatever world, they saw that there were problems with climate sometimes there were years of drought and so forth. Not everything was stable every year. So this is where that idea comes from. The Aztecs took it to a certain level in their ideology that's different maybe from other cultures, but the underlying idea there is that humans have to do certain things. We can call that ritual. They didn't have a word for this as ritual. They just saw it as the work they had to do to ensure that, yeah, the sun would come up again after the 52 year cycle or that it would be as strong as it once was, or that the rains would come. I've been part of ceremonies as a kid. I was a part of a ceremony as a kid in Coba, in this little Maya village. Now it's a bigger town. The rains weren't coming. One year that we were there, my dad's project and the village was in crisis because without that rain there was you couldn't even hunt the animals because they weren't around anymore and people cannot grow their corn. So the local priest decided to have a rain ceremony. And this was completely genuine. This was not some kind of tourist thing for us, this was for the village. And they constructed an altar in the plaza of the ancient ruins. I mean, talk about atmospheric. I mean it was wild. And it was an all night ceremony to renew rain. And it's called the Cha Chak, which means to summon chak, the rain deity, who's a deity we see in the ancient art, by the way, and is one of the. I was young, I was nine years old. The shaman called a, a doer. He needed kids to be part of the ceremony. So he asked me to be one of the kids that would rotate around every like an hour here, an hour there. There were a lot of us to sit under this table, makeshift table. It was his altar and it was a four sided model of the universe with the four world directions. And I was one of the four kids that sat under the table facing in the world directions to call the rain God. And I had to sit there for an hour in the middle of the night going,

[Matt]

how, how old were you?

[David Stewart]

I was nine. Whoa. I was a frog.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's awesome.

[David Stewart]

And I was calling the rain God. And we were all sitting around going, and you know, there's, there's fermented drinks going around and it's just wild, you know, no women were allowed. It was just men and the boys and I mean, I was a kid from North Carolina and I was all of a sudden kind of in this thing and my dad was taking pictures and being the anthropologist and I was just sort of going there, like, what am I doing here? But that experience for me was, it really, really brought home in retrospect this idea that we have to do things to renew the world. And all religions do this, right. A Catholic mass is kind of a renewal ceremony, right? Yeah. All sorts of ceremonies or renewals of the cosmos. And they're doing it their way. Right. And they do it in these weird ways that we think are. Well, they are kind of nuts. I mean, sometimes these, you know, the human sacrifices that the Aztecs were doing was a kind of renewal because the life force is the blood of these people and, and the cosmos needs its life force. There are a lot of complicated ideas behind all of these things. Yeah. But in a nutshell, it is about renewal.

[Matt]

That's pretty. So what's, what's like the pantheon, like the Mayan pantheon, looking like, do they, do you have a good sense of like all the different gods? Like they do? Yeah.

[David Stewart]

Well, they, they had a. So they existed in what we would call maybe an animate universe in that, you know, we know that we're living beings and plants are living beings and animals. But they also saw an animation in mountains, in the earth, in the sky. Anything that the sun that moves around, you know, it has animation. It's. It has agency in a way. Right. So when we're talking about gods, we're talking about in many ways these kind of natural forces. And so they gave names to these. The rain deity, right. Who is still venerated. Yeah, he's one of the most important. Right. Because he's a storm. He's like a storm cloud. Chuck. This is exactly what they call him when there's a storm cloud coming in Yucatan. Oh, I remember this as a kid they would say, hekwtale, Chak. Here comes chak. He's coming. Right. And he's coming with his machete to break the clouds, to bring the rain. And in ancient times it was an ax. Yeah, stone ax. But these ideas don't die, right? They're still there. And it's easy to say, it's like mythology and so forth like that, but, but this is part of their lives, you know, and, and I think they, they had all of these deities and, and, and so called gods and forces in their world. Some of them are ancestors, some of them are forces of nature. Some of them are combinations of all of these things. Right. So it gets to be very, very complicated very quickly. But yeah, they were, you know, like a lot of other cultures, they just saw this kind of animation in the universe around them.

[Matt]

That's pretty. And they're. I know they were notorious. The calendar is the big one.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, time, time was animate, time was the living thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. That was kind of cool because you always hear about the Mayan calendar, but in the book the. You were talking a little bit about how they seemed almost like pretty hell bent on like really nailing down all those little kind of swirling gears of time and how it all fit together. And that was pretty neat. And that was one of the reasons it was, I guess, easier to decipher because they had such a good, a strong calendar system that you were able to see the date.

[David Stewart]

Well, aren't we lucky that they wrote everything down according to the very day when things happened? Right. So I've actually had these conversations with people who study Egyptian history or even Greek history. Like there's A lot we know about that. But they may not know the exact day when Tutankhamun died. They might know the year more or less within a couple years. We know because of the Maya calendar and the way they mesh with our calendar. The very day when Kinnichan of Palenque died and was resurrected. You know, we know when the war of 378 happened, a Tikal, that was on January 16. We know when all sorts of things happened, you know, to the very day. And it's, that's really unusual anytime in ancient history, no matter where you are in the world. So we're really lucky we have that for the Maya. They were so interested in their cosmos and in the patterns of time and everything that they wrote that down with precision. So, yeah, it's great for us.

[Matt]

How many days was a mine year? Was it 360 or.

[David Stewart]

Well, they had our year too. I mean, they had 365 days. What they had that they had a notion. Well, this is cool there. We have a base 10 counting system, right? They had a base 20 counting system.

[Matt]

How's that? How's, how's that?

[David Stewart]

Because we count our fingers, but they also counted toes.

[Matt]

Didn't even think of toes. So I've been doing math with my six year old daughter. I'm going to bust my toes out now.

[David Stewart]

Yeah. So, so once you get that idea of fingers and toes. Okay, base 20. So they, they have a counting system that's 20 instead of 10 hundred thousand. Right. It goes 2400 8000. Whoa. And so I mentioned this because they, they understood time to be 365 days, like we do, even with the leap days in there. But they also had this idea of 360 days because 20 will go into that. They liked that. And they were like, okay, we'll use that as sort of a basic idea of a year in this calendar that they developed. And it doesn't track with real time, but they used it and they used it to create this massive calendar, the scale of which dwarfs our cosmology, you know, in terms of the big Bang. Like the dates they were writing sometimes in mythology go back, you know, billions and billions and billions of years. So that's another kind of cool topic. But.

[Matt]

Well, so their mythology has dates and.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, no, they're talking about gods doing things way before our big bang. Yeah, it's really crazy when you think about it.

[Matt]

What is their genesis myth? Do they have a standard genesis myth or is it just kind of.

[David Stewart]

Yeah, they do. In fact, this is Something I've been working on in the last few months. I haven't even published on this really, but I think there's one essential myth about the raising of the earth out of primordial sea, which sounds like a lot of myths in the world, right? And it's this stone that is the surface of the earth. And there are four guys who kind of hold up this big table like stone and create the world that's recorded in some ancient myths I've been working on. It's interesting because Maya kings talk about renewal when they were marking their calendar festivities. They would have to recreate that myth by raising stones. These are the monuments we sometimes see at Maya sites today, or the stones that are symbols of that. And there's another myth that's about kind of a hearth that is created in primordial time. Three stones that get set in the triangle, and that's called the first hearth place. And that seems to be a really essential event in the creation of kind of the order of everything. Right. So we have these. Here's the struggle right now among us who are studying this stuff is we have these little episodes of myth and mythology. I'm trying to create more of a narrative out of them all. Like, what's the real story? How do they all connect? Right. How does the stones over here connect to those stones over there? Anyway, I'm really optimistic then in the next several years, we're going to be able to talk about Maya mythology, ancient Maya mythology, in a way that we talk about Egyptian or even Greek or Roman mythology in terms of this stuff. Right. So it's exciting.

[Matt]

That's pretty cool.

[David Stewart]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Well, nice. Well, hey, thanks for coming on, man. And, yeah, if anyone wants the book, it is the Four Heavens by David Stewart. Good job.

[David Stewart]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Myself, Good job getting. Figuring out what this stuff means. I. I couldn't do it.

[David Stewart]

There's more to do, too. It's great fun. Thank you. Oh, man.

[Matt]

Thank you so much.

[David Stewart]

Appreciate it.

[Shane]

Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's

[Matt]

Secret podcast on Spotify.

[David Stewart]

Do it.