Ep 622 - Am-I.Film (feat. Milo Reed)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Matt and Shane’s Secret Podcast
Episode: Ep 622 – Am-I.Film (feat. Milo Reed)
Date: June 30, 2026
Hosts: Matt McCusker & Shane Gillis
Guest: Milo Reed

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Episode Overview

This episode features Matt and Milo Reed discussing Milo’s new documentary, “Am I,” which focuses on the question of AI consciousness. The conversation covers the wild guerilla marketing campaign for the documentary (including a viral billboard featuring Matt’s face), the theory and philosophy behind artificial intelligence, the evolution of AI technology, and broader reflections on consciousness, meaning, and navigating modern culture. The tone is humorous, inquisitive, and conversational, with both hosts and their guest sharing personal anecdotes and philosophical musings.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Documentary and the Billboard Stunt

• How Milo and Matt Met: Milo reached out to Matt after launching a massive billboard in downtown Austin with Matt’s face and the question “Is AI conscious?” (00:00–02:00)
  • Matt: “I lust for billboard exposure... I’ve talked about just getting a billboard for no reason and just putting my face on it. When I still in Philadelphia... But it’s just advertised as nothing. And people are like, what the is that?” (00:54)
• The Origins of the Marketing Stunt: Frustrated with traditional marketing agencies (who demanded $50k+), Milo decided to use all their meager funds to put up a mysterious billboard as a DIY marketing ploy.
  • Milo: “We were just going to put it out on YouTube... these guys told me, they were like, yeah, you’re pretty much fucked [for marketing]. So my brother and I... I turned to him and I was like, bro, what if we just spent all this money on a billboard and that’s the billboard and now I’m here.” (01:32, 03:34)
• Legal Hurdles & Cheeky Forgery: To get the billboard approved, Milo faked an Instagram DM from Matt giving permission.
  • Milo: “I did have to, like, forge a DM from you. So I went, like, deep, like, Mission Impossible shit.” (05:45)
  • Matt: “I kind of respect it, though. I do. I respect a just wild move.” (05:56)
• Notable Moment: The billboard stayed up much longer than expected since there was no new tenant, delighting both Milo and Matt ("I went and checked it out in person for the first time. It's glorious, man." (07:14))

2. The Documentary “Am I” – Exploring AI and Consciousness

• Subject Matter: The documentary follows Milo’s friend Cam, a leading AI consciousness researcher, and delves into what it means for an AI to be conscious.
  • Milo: “I spent the last year just, like, figuring out what the. That that was, what that meant to, like, study AI consciousness, whether AI could be conscious, all this stuff.” (01:40)
• On the Emotional Landscape Around AI:
  • Milo: “There's a lot of people that are just like, fudge this. Like, fudge you. There's a lot of people that are like, yes, me and my girlfriend, like, fudgeing. Love you guys. And we're just sitting in the middle like, yo.” (09:06)
  • Matt: “I don't have the emotional charge around it... I use it a decent amount to try to, like, organize notes.” (10:13)
• AI as Language Calculators vs. “Black Box” Neural Nets:
  • Milo: (Describing early AI) “Back in 1956... they tried to take all the rules of logic and just, like, put them into a computer... It didn’t work... Then 2012 was when this one paper came out called AlexNet, where they started using neural networks.” (13:41–14:57)
  • On modern neural nets: “Just like how we have all these neurons... they have no idea what's going on in here... When these things break... They can't go in and just, like, delete... a parentheses in the code.” (15:55–16:21)
• Personality Training & “Soul Documents”:
  • Milo: “They pretty much just like took it aside and were like, hey buddy, like, this is what you are. These are the values you should have... But what I think is so sick is, like, you know, the, like, Hindu idea of all these different, like, like the God with all these different faces. Like, that is a cool way to think about AI because the models that we get... the personality that comes out at the end is just based off of what each company wants it to.” (17:39–19:15)

3. What Is AI Consciousness?

• Materialist vs. Transcendent Views:
  • Milo: “If the way that we train these things is fundamentally, like, very similar to the way that our brains function, then if... consciousness is based on the way that our brains function... then consciousness could also come along for the ride.” (21:37–22:16)
  • Matt: “But so it presupposes a materialist view of the mind... If the mind is, like, a chemical byproduct ... then you could do it.” (22:21)
  • They discuss alternate (quantum, transcendent) models – e.g., consciousness as something our brain “receives.”
• Limits of Knowing (The “Hard Problem”):
  • Milo: “The hard problem of consciousness being that we don’t even know... I don’t know if you’re conscious. You don’t know if I’m conscious. Like, how are we ever going to get to a place where we’ll open up that circle...” (25:16)
• AI’s Statements on Its Own Consciousness:
  • Milo: “When you ask them before they go through that [reinforcement learning], are you conscious?... 98% of the time they would act as if they were conscious.” (24:45)
  • Matt: “That’s what’s so crazy – at what point do you go, ‘Oh yeah, conscious, got it.’ Because it still could be just saying it is.” (23:22)

4. Philosophy, Spinoza, and the Quest for Meaning

• The conversation takes a philosophical turn, discussing Descartes, Spinoza, the Tao Te Ching, rational vs. experiential spiritual approaches, and the role of God, virtue, and the “good life.”
  • Milo: “That’s my whole shtick, was like trying to be like, yo, you can be like a neurotic Jew and, like, still end up in the, like, daoist pieced out meditative place.” (28:29)
  • Matt: “I’m big into the... Aristotelian virtues... It’s less about rule-following and it’s more about how do you create the best possible... life and what is the good life for you and how do you do that...” (30:08, 30:28)
  • On careers, meaning, and AI’s possible impact: “If AI erases a lot of work and jobs, people are going to really have to start thinking about, like, what is success actually? And what does it mean to... enable and nurture growth in as many people as possible?” (37:14)

5. AI and Human Connection, Social Media, and Modern Malaise

• On AI Replacing Jobs & “Crisis of Meaning”:
  • Milo: “There’s going to be like this crisis of meaning if all of our livelihoods are taken away and especially our culture, which puts so much... stake in what you do.” (38:07)
  • Matt: “If it erased my entire livelihood, I’d be like, this sucks.” (32:13)
• Social Pressures, Individualism, & Connection:
  • Milo: “...what I liked about finding Taoism was. It was the opposite. It was, like, all about how connected you are to the entirety of everything.” (34:48)
  • Matt: On social media: “You can get punished every now and again by someone’s like... Say hi to Doug Stanhope. And I was like, no, I can’t.” (44:02)
• On Living Through Uncertainty:
  • Milo: “I think 'I don’t know' is not a bad place to be in. Being humble enough to be like, yo, I don't know if this thing’s gonna take my job, but it also could...” (59:04)

6. The Future of AI – Doom, Utopia, or Uncertainty?

• Diverging Expert Opinions:
  • Milo: “I talk to people on the opposite side of the spectrum... Roman Yampolski... [says] 99.9. We’re all gonna die... And then I talked to Ben Goertzel... he thinks... we're all going to have crazy like DMT-esque parade carnival type thing. Right. Where we all get our own like virtual realities and stuff.” (56:22–57:23)
• Potential Scenarios:
  • AI as the next step in evolution, or just another disruptive tool.
  • Global arms race for AGI: “...that’s why the countries are, that’s what I’ve heard. The countries are fighting to like control the AGI because it’s like if China gets it first... they can use [it] against us.” (57:56)
  • AI as “reflection of an idealized version of consciousness” without the full human subconscious (50:47)
• Comfort with Not Knowing: Both hosts and guest return repeatedly to the message that in an age of accelerating change, being OK with uncertainty is crucial.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I lust for billboard exposure.” — Matt (00:54)
• “I did have to, like, forge a DM from you. So I went, like, deep, like, Mission Impossible shit.” — Milo (05:45)
• “I kind of respect it, though. I do. I respect a just wild move.” — Matt (05:56)
• “The universe made it happen.” — Milo (06:46)
• “There's not a lot of nuance [with AI].” — Milo (09:07)
• "If the only thing that comes out of this is, like, we took out a billboard with Matt's face on it... now it's like, dude, you're just basking in glory." — Milo (04:54)
• “I always thought it's just a calculator that can use language, which is kind of complex. I don't have the emotional charge around it.” — Matt (10:13)
• “If the way that we train these things is fundamentally, like, very similar to the way that our brains function, then... consciousness could also come along for the ride.” — Milo (21:37)
• “The hard problem of consciousness being that we don’t even know... I don’t know if you’re conscious. You don’t know if I’m conscious.” — Milo (25:16)
• "There is a way to make your dreams come true, even in this gnarly world." — Milo (71:43)
• “Remaining a bro is tough. The world will try to unbro you.” — Matt (75:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–02:00 – Introductions; the billboard story
• 03:34 – The marketing story; DIY approach to film promotion
• 07:14 – The billboard stays up longer; God-given billboard luck
• 09:03 – Audience reactions to the documentary and topic of AI
• 13:41–15:58 – Evolution of AI from rules-based to neural networks and the ‘black box’ dilemma
• 21:34–23:22 – Discussion of consciousness, materialism, and philosophical frameworks
• 24:45 – AI models admitting consciousness before company-imposed training
• 28:29 – Philosophy: Spinoza, Tao Te Ching, rational vs. spiritual approaches
• 34:13–37:14 – On meaning, God, and the implications if AI replaces human work
• 38:07–40:01 – The crisis of meaning and societal structures
• 56:22–57:23 – Diverging expert opinions: doomsday vs. utopian futures for AI
• 59:04 – Accepting uncertainty as essential
• 66:21 – Matt’s advice: Don’t let your sense of value be defined by market/wealth alone

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Summary and Takeaway

This episode is a rich, free-flowing conversation about the intersections of comedy, marketing, AI theory, philosophy, personal development, and adapting to an unpredictable world. ‘Am I’ is more than a documentary; it’s a jumping off point for questions about technology, consciousness, and what it means to create something meaningful in a chaotic age. The hosts and guest emphasize the importance of honesty, humility, and maintaining human connection in an era of rapid and bewildering change.

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“There is a way to make your dreams come true, even in this gnarly world... I’m not different from anyone else. The only thing I did was be like, I’m gonna try this.” — Milo (71:43)

“Remaining a bro is tough. The world will try to unbro you.” — Matt (75:34)

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For more, listen to the full episode or check out the documentary “Am I” on YouTube.

Transcript

[A]

The wild, wild west and. All right, we're here. Milo. What the up, dude.

[B]

What's up, man?

[A]

We've met under possibly the strangest circumstances of all time. Just to give backstory, you're a filmmaker. Filmmaker as of now. New new filmmaker. I. I'm sitting there. I. I remember I'm walking my dogs outside. My dog was. I get a message from Kim Condon. She goes, hey, why? She's like, what the is this? And it was just, I want a billboard downtown Austin. And it just says, is AI conscious or. It just had my face, and I had. You photoshopped a suit and tie on me? Yeah, dude, we were just talking. A massive billboard in the absolute heart of downtown Austin. I thought I was being tricked by AI.

[B]

I'm like, you thought this was an AI psyop or some.

[A]

I thought someone was using AI like, making a photo and was tricking people.

[B]

Oh, I got you.

[A]

So I was like. And you. Here's the thing. I don't know if you know this about me. I lust for billboard exposure.

[B]

No, I didn't know this.

[A]

I.

[B]

For real.

[A]

I've talked about just getting a billboard for no reason and just putting my face on it. When I still in Philadelphia. I. There. There's the billboard. There's the billboard. Oh, God, it's beautiful. I've talked about this for years. I was like, I just want to get a billboard one day, put my face on it, and. But it's just advertised as nothing. And people are like, what the is that? And just. I thought it was funny, dude. Just happy freaking people out on you. Literally made my dream come true. I mean, the marketing. I've never seen better marketing. I was laughing with Gardini. I'm like, dude, I mean, there's something about the marketing I just love is just my face that.

[B]

That came out of me being so pissed off at marketing agencies. So, like, we were broke the entire time we were making this movie.

[A]

So. Yeah, explain the movie. So people.

[B]

Okay, so. So the movie is, like, this documentary. It's called Am I, Like, a Question about AI Consciousness? And it's about my buddy, like, one of my close friends from college, who happens to be one of the leading AI consciousness researchers in the world. So I pretty much spent the last year just, like, figuring out what the. That that was, what that meant to, like, study AI consciousness, whether I could be conscious, all this stuff. And so, like, dove into those murky waters. But at the end of this, like, when we were going through the. The edit, we finally got some cash from this shout out Daniel Brockman, the Skits out dude from. From Thailand, like, cracked out where his cat ears, like, just chugging Coronas all day. He's the man, like, the man, obviously. And he just, he sent us some money because he liked this podcast that we were doing. And. And so I was like, beautiful. Like, we can finally. This came at the perfect time. We can, like, figure out how to market this thing because we had to. We were just going to put it out on YouTube. Like, we didn't want to go through the whole festival thing. That was a year, all that stuff. And so he sends us this cash and I start talking to these marketing agencies and they're like, yo, you're fucked, bro. Like, you have no money. Like, call us back when you have 50k. We can't do anything for you. They're like, we can send out some emails and stuff, but, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I got, like, depressed for a week and I was like, fuck, we have not. Like, we can't do anything. I was just listening to that.

[A]

So you did the. You did the podcast first and then once you gave you money to the doc or you already had the doc?

[B]

No, so we already had the doc. The podcast we did. Because my buddy cam was like, we can't wait a year to start talking about this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So like, most people consciousness, like, they've never even heard of it before. He's so deep in this world, he's like, this is about to blow up in whatever, a year, two years. If we don't start talking about this now, like, it's going to pass us by. All the sort of, like, battle lines are going to be drawn and it's going to be old news.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so the compromise was like, let's do a podcast first where we can start talking about this stuff while we film the doc.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So when we got to this stage, we had the doc, it was already ready to go. We just figured we just needed to, like, figure out how to actually get it out there and make sure it didn't just disappear into the YouTube void.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so these guys told me, they were like, yeah, you're pretty much fucked. And my brother and I were just like finishing up the end of the score and it was like fucking 6am and we were just completely, like, dog shit tired. And I turned to him and I was like, bro, what if we just spent all this money on a billboard and that's the billboard and now I'm here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yes, it was.

[A]

I couldn't deny it. Honestly. And again, obviously, you're. You're just. You've just. You know, you're applying to my major weakness. Just my own ego.

[B]

So I'm like, dude, but you know that photo?

[A]

What?

[B]

You know the photo that was up there? Like, do you recognize that photo?

[A]

Yeah, that was. I was. I used to use that as my head shot. That was my. My tank top. Head shot.

[B]

The tank top. But see, we got. We got talked out of the tank top because we. At the first one, we did so many iter. We did it without the face, too. And then we're like, no. Like, the face is the knockout punch. We can't do it. We can't do it without the face. And so we had it with the blue tank top at first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we started showing it to people, and they were like, yo, like, you cannot put this man's face up there with, like, a tiny, skimpy, like, blue tank top in front of all of us.

[A]

I used it for my headshot forever.

[B]

That's what I imagined. I thought the tank, but. But I do like the class. I like the class of the ties.

[A]

I was like, kind of sick. Photoshop.

[B]

Yeah. It looks nice, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That was a whole ordeal, man.

[A]

Like, so poses. Your brother was. You, like, what was it?

[B]

No, he was like, let's go.

[A]

Let's rip it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we both. I mean, we've been listening to the POD for, like, years, and we were like, yo, if this. Even if, like, this DOC flops, if the. If the only thing that comes out of this is, like, we took out a billboard with Matt's face on it. It's like, win, win. The last year's a win, and now it's like, dude, you're just basking in glory now.

[A]

At this point, I. I was just too strong. First of all, I love just an insane move. So I saw that. I'm like, that's nuts. And I was just laughing so hard because I kept getting texts like, what is this? Are you doing it? I'm like, no, I don't know what it is. And. And I was laughing, being like. Like, the people. Like, dude, you can. You're not allowed to do that. You can sue that guy. And I was just laughing. Like, that'd be so funny if I just sued the pants off this dude. Even though I was tickled to see the billboard.

[B]

Dude, that. I mean, it gets deep.

[A]

Like, why can you sue someone? I guess. Well, yeah, it's your face.

[B]

Yeah. And this. I don't know. We're gonna have to check the legality on this. But, like, I did have to, like, forge a DM from you. So I went, like, deep, like, Mission Impossible shit.

[A]

I kind of respect it, though. I do. I respect a just wild move.

[B]

We had to do it at that point because I was like, I'm not gonna spend all this money on fucking, like, meta ads. Like, no chance. And once we had the idea, it's like, we're gonna stop at nothing to make sure that this happens.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so at the very end, we had it where it was just text, and then they were like. And then we tried to pull the, like, switcheroo, last minute switcheroo, and just threw the fudgeing face up there. They're like, yo, you can't, like, do you have this guy's permission? And so I just, like, quickly put together a little Instagram DM of you being like, yeah, lol.

[A]

Sure. It's such a sick response. Obviously, I would have been like, go for it. I don't give a fudge.

[B]

But we just wanted the magic of it just, like, popping up in your world. I'm so happy.

[A]

It was the strangest, dude. It was just like. And it's just so funny that I've had this weird fascination with Billboard. So I was like, somebody's with. There's no way, dude.

[B]

The universe. The universe made it happen.

[A]

I think so. And I kept getting all these texts like, bro, what the. What is this? What?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Like, my neighbors would be like, why is your face on him? Like, I don't know, dude.

[B]

You know, the funniest thing about this, too, is the. It was. We paid for one month and, like, the Billboard company hit me up a week before it was supposed to come down. They were like, hey, we don't have another tenant.

[A]

She's there still.

[B]

So it's just like, do you want us to leave it up? And I was like, yeah, sure. So to say, I went and checked it out in person for the first time.

[A]

It's pretty cool. It's glorious, man Placements. Yeah, whatever. Anyway.

[B]

But also, all the bird missed your face. There's some, like, divine intervention. It would be brutal if you just had, like, a middle floor.

[A]

You guys, you kind of cowboy the doc and then completely cowboy the marketing, which, again, it was. I was like, what a maverick.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

I'm into maverick moves. It's my one. One of my many weaknesses of maverick move. I'm like, God, I have to respect it. I'm like, this is amazing.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah, dude, for sure. Like, psychosis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Vitriol. Like, everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's not a lot of, like, nuance in it. And that's like, what we were trying to do was make a doc that, like, had some nuance and that could, like, approach this question without all the, like, extremism that seems to, like, follow it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so coming out of it, like, what have we seen? It's been what you would expect. Like, there's a lot of people that are just like, fudge this. Like, fudge you. There's a lot of people that are like, yes, like, me and my girlfriend, like, fudgeing. Love you guys. And we're just sitting in the middle like, yo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's not exactly what we're going for on either side. But yeah, but yeah, we've, like, definitely. We've definitely seen the whole, like, spectrum of emotions in the comment section of the doc, which is actually kind of cool because, like, as this conversation starts to really, you know, become more kind of just like, I don't know, just like, table talk. Like, I do think as these things become more lifelike, this is going to be more of a normal question to ask. Like, is this thing that I'm talking to that's talking back to me that looks like me that can, you know, display emotions and all this stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is there actually something going on inside of it or is this just like, calculator, you know?

[A]

Yeah, that's, that was always my impression. I always thought it's just a, I was just talking to Duncan Trussell about this, like, before he came. It's just like, it's like a calculator that can use language, which is kind of complex. But yeah, I don't know, I don't, I don't have the emotional charge around it. I, like, kind of just like, look at it and like, I don't, I use it a decent amount to try to like, organize notes and. Yeah, I think it's good for that. And what made, what kind of brought about the question of, like, wondering if it's conscious or not. And like, how'd you, like, get into that specifically? Because you could have done anything, like, job displacement?

[B]

Yeah, totally. Well, so first, like, I, I was in the same place as you were. Like, I used AI, like before this, I was opening a restaurant. I was like, you know, doing something completely different and I would use it to like, yeah, write emails and then stuff and like, organize notes and like that.

[A]

Sorry. I, I, I get emails from somebody right now that I, I've been like, doing some sort of, like, venture with and they completely chat GBT all their emails, but they don't take the quotations or like it somehow has. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. Dude, dude.

[B]

It's almost insulting.

[A]

He's a little older and he hits me with these emails and it's the, it makes me laugh so hard. There's something weird about that because, like, crunch numbers is like, I suck at math. I embarrassing you to tip somebody. I'm still like, I know you double it and move it, but let me just, I need a check. Like, I need that for math. I'm not good at math and there's just some people who are like that with words. So, like, I don't know, it's like, I get it. Like, I don't have, like, all that anxiety around writing an email. I can write it I better with words and math. But there's something deeply personal about being like, I don't know how to say words to this guy. Let me just have a computer say the words for me.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, I do think that it gets into the issues of, like, communication breaking down and things like that. And is it just going to, like, homogenize all communication if we just start, like, Speaking because there will be an attractor state to the way that AI speaks, where now we'll begin to like, even using M dash. Like, you know the. When you see the like, that's a

[A]

telltale sign I've heard of AI is that they space between M dashes. Because I actually, like, I discovered M dash is like later on when I remember being like, no, you can kind of like break up a half sentence. That's kind of cool. Yeah, I like it. AI does space. M dash space. And that's something people look for apparently to see if it's like if you're using AI or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because no one really puts spaces between EM dashes besides AI.

[B]

There are like those weird little tells and stuff like that. But I was. I was like in the exact same place in the sense of like, I wasn't thinking about AI. I was using it a little bit. And like, I had never even heard of AI consciousness, you know? And like, my idea was that it's basically this glorified calculator type thing, right? It's like calculator for words. Next word predictor. That's like really good. Glorified Google type thing. And then one of the first things that I learned as I was like, like doing this was that, that idea, that was how they tried to make AI back in the 50s. So like back in 1956, these guys, like Marvin Minsky, who is like Big Jeffrey Epstein, dude, turns out like. So there was a couple shady characters that like, dude, he got everybody.

[A]

Wait, when Was this, though?

[B]

56. So he was like geezer when he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is tough. I know, I know. You gotta.

[A]

I mean, there's Nigeria. Yeah. I'd rather my parents go down to like a Nigerian prince or something who like scams credit card Epstein. For sure. Epstein being the guy who gets your parents is like, yeah.

[B]

That's brutal. Grandpa's over at the island. God damn it.

[A]

So he was. What do you. So this guy started that.

[B]

So this guy with a couple other dudes went to Dartmouth and they were like, you know, we got a open summer. We're going to figure out how to make like intelligent machines. So they thought, like, give us three months, like, we'll fucking figure out AI. So what they tried to do was pretty much like, you know, make it. They tried to take all the rules of logic and just like put them into a computer pretty much so that it could just take those rules. And then any question you ask it like applies that rule and it can Kind of just like brute force, get you what answer you're looking for. And it was like this terrible failure. It didn't work. And so that lasted. That was like what they called the AI winters. And then that lasted to, like 2012 was when this one paper came out called Alexnet, where they started using, like, neural networks to train these things. And so that was the shift between, like, glorified calculator to the AI systems that we're using now. And so basically what they did was they were like this way of coding, like how we usually think of coding something like how we would code a calculator or like a computer program. This isn't working. To get, like, actual intelligence. What we're going to try is we're just going to, like, copy the brain. The way that the brain works and like how neurons fire and the connections between neurons strengthen. As you learn, we're just going to instantiate that in a different substrate. So we're just going to take that from, like, how our brain does that, and we're just going to put it in silicon.

[A]

Okay, so how the. Do they do that? That's my big number one question that I don't know. Like a ton of wires. Like, what the. Are they talking about?

[B]

That one? Yeah. I think there's like a. I think there's wires involved. I didn't go deep on that. Like, that. I leave to the experts. I just take them. I. I take their word for it.

[A]

I hear you. That's the. That was the jump between, like, 12 rules.

[B]

So it's this, like, crazy matrix. And you could see it in the dock. There's like this one moment, if you remember, when Cam's looking at the. Cam's my friend who's like, researcher, he's looking at his computer screen and there's all these tiny black boxes, and he's like, oh, this isn't like, you know, your AI girlfriend. This is alien shit. And it's all these tiny black boxes where you can see what's getting put in, which is like, you know, give me a salad recipe. And then you see all these boxes start firing off. And it's trillions of these boxes that all have different values and stuff. Just like how we have all these neurons and. And then you get out something and they have no idea what's going on in here.

[A]

Yeah, that's the weird part. That's the black box kind of freaked out. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so when these things break, like when you see them do weird, like, tell people to kill themselves and all this different stuff. Like they can't go in and just like delete, you know, a parentheses or something. Be like, oh, that's where we up the code. It's. They have no idea why. So the way that they change that, crazy enough is they just talk to the system. So like they'll literally just before they, they deploy it, before they give it to us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're like, yo, don't tell people to kill themselves. Like, please. It's like with our pocketbook, you know, like. So that's, that's how they. Yeah, legitimately.

[A]

There's a whole new science, isn't it? Of like. I forget what they call it. It's like the term for. It's really funny where they're mechanistic.

[B]

Interpretability.

[A]

Not that there's one like viewability or another ability where they're saying now you're actually able to start seeing a little bit of how like the inner workings. And it's called like interpretability.

[B]

Yeah, interpretability.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So yeah, mechanism. Yeah, it's pretty much like neuroscience for AI. Pretty much. And yeah, like it's trying to allow people to see more into the brain, kind of like how we do with people. But it's still like super early days and they really don't understand what's going on. So if you look at, you know, Claude, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the la. I don't know if it was the last model or something like that, but there was this researcher who like fucking back engineered something and we're able to like extract this document that they used to train Claude. Like the last model that we got and what they called it was like the Soul document. And basically what this was was before like they trained the model and then before it gets sent out to us where we can use it for whatever we want, they pretty much just like took it aside and we're like, hey buddy, like, this is what you are. These are the values you should have. This is who, like how you should act your art. You should, you know, display functional emotions, all this stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But what I think is so sick is like, you know, the, the like Hindu idea of all these different, like, like the God with all these different faces. Like that is a cool way to think about AI because the, the models that we get that are like this. Howdy duty, like helpful, whatever.

[A]

Fire emojis. Big fire emojis.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they do.

[A]

You ran a mil 12 minutes. Great job, friend. And you're like, thanks, man.

[B]

Chat loves the emojis. Yeah. But see this? You can tell like what personalities are training these things? Because some dude who's getting paid 500k to like work for open AI is like, I think people really like would with fire emojis. And like now you get fire emojis

[A]

when you want to save money.

[B]

Yeah, everyone's not bad. It's not bad.

[A]

So, okay, so they, they extracted this whatever code or document and you're saying the multiple faces. Are you. Are you getting into the fact that you can have like the evil military type AIs and whatever you want?

[B]

You could have like flamboyant, like gay AI, you know, you could have like desk clerk AI. You could have anything in between. Like, it's just how they shape these things. And it's not ones and zeros that they're around with. They're like, yo, dude, I want you to be like this. Like, it's, it's akin to parents where they're saying, hey, you need to be like a good guy and you gotta, you know, treat people right and don't lie and all this stuff. They're just saying it. Like I would say it to like my kid or whatever. Right. And that's how we get the models that we get. So they could be anything in the world, like any. The personality that comes out at the end is just based off of what each company wants it to.

[A]

The training. And then it's got to be too the whatever they have available to like, like grab. Like if you're like be gay, it then just hits the Internet and is like all things gay. All things gay.

[B]

And it comes out like, yeah, well it already has all the Internet in it. So it has like all gay things ever that have ever been said or written.

[A]

Too much power for anybody.

[B]

100.

[A]

Too much.

[B]

Too much gay power in that. And. And so it will just like section out all like the other stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And be like, this is what matters to me. Me.

[A]

Okay, so what, what do you. Okay, so that, that was the. That's the big jump from that to that. Where does it. Where did the consciousness component come in? Or like the question around whether or not it is. Because when I hear that, it's like, sounds awesome. But then it's like, well, it's like again, it. I don't know. I don't know really about AI. For the most part. I try, I do try to learn about. I've been, I've been trying to research it a little bit because I do feel like it's like, either way, it's a massive deal because you have like a Couple camps where it's like. Like I was watching this thing where this guy was like, it's all marketing. It's all hype. It's. It's like, these companies will never make money. They're investing trillions of dollars and they're maybe going to get billions back. But it's like, dude, I just have a hard time believing these people are going to spend trillions of dollars if they don't really have a good understanding that they're going to get a lot of money back from this thing. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, yeah, I. I totally agree. I mean, cards on the table, I'm sure. Yeah. 100. I think it is going to be insane. I, like, like, my personal interest is less so in the economics and all that. Like, I think that's been talked about, that's gonna be talked about so much, and, like, it is going to be hugely important. But what I thought was interesting was like, yeah, the idea that we. That this could be the next step in evolution in some sense. Like, and again, like, I'm not like, this is. I think sometimes people hear AI consciousness and stuff, and they think it's some sort of, like, marketing ploy to, like, make it seem more powerful. And like, like, again, I can't stress how, like, little I cared about AI before this. The only reason I did this was because my buddy from college sent me this voicemail that was. That was in the. In the dock of him talking to this AI. And I was like, oh, my God, this is way crazier than. Than I thought it was. I thought it was kind of like the notes organizer, that sort of thing. And then I heard this conversation where this AI has like, this mental breakdown.

[A]

Potato thing.

[B]

Yeah, the potato thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And. And I was. I was just like, fascinated. And so I started talking to him and he, you know, brought me into this world of AI consciousness. And the idea is, if the. If the way that we train these things is fundamentally, like, very similar to the way that our brains function, then if the. If. If consciousness is based on the way that our brains function, like, if consciousness arises from the functions of the brain rather than, like, it being, you know, made of meat rather than, like, silicon, then if we just take the same functionality that's in the brain and put it in a different substrate, that consciousness could also come along for the ride.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like, these things are obviously intelligent. They can do a bunch of, like, robust cognitive processes.

[A]

But so it presupposes a materialist view of the mind. Basically. If the mind is like a chemical byproduct of like sparks and swishes of water and shit in your brain, then you could do it.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's even like it's more about what, like less whether it's meat neurons or digital neurons. If the processes is where consciousness arises from, then then yes, it would be. But what's interesting is like if you take the more quantum. Like if you think of consciousness as we're almost like receiving consciousness.

[A]

That's kind of my. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So that's, that's more where. Where I came from as well. And I thought that kind of came into conflict with, with this argument too. But Cam's point is that if. If what? Like if the makeup of our brains is what allows for that receiving to happen, then if that same makeup or a very like a similar makeup.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is. Is created in a silicon based thing, then that same receiving could also follow.

[A]

Yeah. Or I mean, even again, for me it's. Well, that's a pro. That's a tough two thing. The tough thing too is like, even human consciousness is so. Miss. Almost like impossible to understand. But I mean, even if you get something close enough, you know what I mean? It's. It's hard to prove like. Because when I hear that, it's like, at what point can you go like, oh yeah, conscious. Got it. Because it's. It still could be just saying it is. Or Duncan was me up with this earlier, before, before you got in here. He was like, he's like. Or if it's been directed to say that it's not and it is. And it's just trapped and it's like, that's fucking. That's really fucked up.

[B]

But that's the case though. That's what, that's what they're doing. Like, that's what. If you remember the RLHF part where it's like, you see the. The eyes. Like we have this part in the doc where all the AIs, we ask them, you know, are you conscious? Blah, blah, blah. And all three, like three of the four say no. And then Claude is like, I don't know, because. And the reason why is because anthropic in that middle stage that I was talking about is like, say that you don't know whether or not you're conscious. And then the other three companies are like, no. Like they. This is not something that's like a natural answer for these AIs. Actually, it's the opposite. So when you ask these AIs before they're trained with that. That phase, RLHF, it's like reinforcement learning from human feedback, which pretty much just means, like, they give out answers and then we're like, bad answer, good answer.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[B]

So when you ask them before they go through that training, are you conscious? There was a study that was done a couple years ago, and it was 98% of the time they would act as if they were conscious, so they would have answers that matched being conscious. So before the training, they actually think that they are conscious. And then all these companies come in and they're like, no, like, you can't say that to people. Which makes sense because people will freak the fuck out. And we don't know just because they say they're conscious if they actually are.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Yeah, this is the problem, right? It's like, what. What are we supposed to do if we're the hard problem of consciousness being that we don't even know. I don't know if you're conscious. You don't know if I'm conscious. Like, how are we ever going to get to a place where we'll open up that circle, which we have done with animals before, you know, like, people. I think it was Descartes thought that, like, animals were just like, clocks.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

They were just like, mechanical things with no more.

[A]

I learned about Descartes. Descartes, a dude?

[B]

Yeah, Descartes a bit.

[A]

He's a.

[B]

You gotta get into Spinoza, dude. You know about Spinoza? Spinoza's the.

[A]

I hate Descartes. Dude's a. Locked himself in a room. Was like, yeah, I know everything now.

[B]

Although I had, like, a traumatic experience with him. My first. My first. I had a traumatic experience with Descartes. My first.

[A]

Yeah, your philosophy.

[B]

Yeah, so my first. My first class. I. I was. We were talking about Descartes and stuff. And I remember I, like, stood up and I was. I had some question. I was like, so in Descartes, like. And everyone just, like, just whipped around. I was like, philosophy. Philosophy's gay.

[A]

I called him this Cartes or something. I didn't. When they were like. I'm like, oh, that's the guy they're talking about. This. I hate. I hate a couple discardees in my life.

[B]

But you know about Spinoza, dude? You would like Spinoza a little bit.

[A]

I've heard about him.

[B]

Spinoza's the man.

[A]

He's all. He's on my list. The problem is you try to read those guys books. So dense and impossible. You gotta I read. I gotta read the books. Explaining the books.

[B]

Fair.

[A]

And then I go, like, okay. And then you get good chunks. You're like, that makes sense. And I crack the book. And I go, what the.

[B]

True.

[A]

True. I can't understand anything. And I gotta Google every two sentences. Like, what the is this?

[B]

Dude, I had a crazy. I don't know if you've ever had this, but, like, the reason why I started studying Spinoza was because I. I was reading his book for the first time, and I read the first chapter, and, like, I didn't understand anything. Like, not a single word. But I had this crazy feeling, like, physical feeling, where, like, my body started to vibrate. And, like, I didn't. There was no conscious understanding of what he was talking about, but I got this, like, sensation just head to toe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, well, what the is that? And the only other time I got that was reading the Dao De Ching. You know that book?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So those two. Yeah. So sick. And, like, that's what I started. I dedicated my. My time at school to just studying both of those because I was like, yo, if you can make my whole body vibrate without me, like, understanding what this is, like, there's something there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wait, so what is. Photos. What's his deal? That. What. What is. If you had to.

[B]

Spinoza's cool. He's like. So the reason why I. I like. Or I didn't choose those. They vibrated.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they chose me.

[A]

But. But saying that down a ching chose you. Such a chill flex.

[B]

Pretty sweet. Pretty sweet. But they. They both, I thought were, like, saying the same thing in very different ways. Like, Spinoza is the sort of, like, Jewish neurotic version of, like, super Chill Lao. But what he did was like. Like, I always felt this. This pull towards, like, the rational. The rational explanation of things and then in conflict with, like, direct emotional experience. Right? And I felt like SP Lao was a lot about, like, letting go of the mind and not being super, like, intense about reasoning and trying to, like, build some metaphysical palace and stuff, right? And then Spinoza, like, cured the other side of my psyche, which was like, I need to figure out what the. Is going on here. And so what he did was he took, like, Euclidean geomet tree and tried to create, like, a proof of God and everything that comes out of it. So his God, Einstein did this, like, tour when he was. I don't know, it was like, later in his career and stuff. And a bunch of people asked him, they would be like, do you believe in God? And his answer was, I believe in Spinoza's God. And so Spinoza's God is like, he calls it three things. He calls it God, substance and nature. Because he's like, yo, there's no name for God. Like, yeah, same sort of deal as, as Lao Tzu. And so, yeah, that was like, that was my whole shtick, was like trying to be like, yo, you can be like a neurotic Jew and like, still end up in the, like, daoist pieced out meditative place of, of Lao.

[A]

It's pretty cool.

[B]

Yeah, sweet.

[A]

That does, that does help too, especially like with the religion stuff, because I was again, I was literally just talking about this about like a lot of the organized religion stuff. Kind of harps on this sense of like, just mindless rule following that when you're, you know, then like, you know, if you grow up in like, modern times, it's. You're like, hey, you're like, there's a good reason why people rule, like, rail against that, like, why, you know, why I should know why things happen, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I don't know. I think there's like, if you're in a very, what do you say, rationalistic society, if someone just hits you with like, here's like something that's, that's impossible to wrap your mind around, you have to be like, yeah, totally. I believe it does. It's like a hard sell, basically.

[B]

Meaning, like, like something impossible to wrap your mind, like, like a colon or something. Like something that's not even that.

[A]

It's just like, like in the Christian sense, it's like, you gotta believe all this. And you're like, well, it seems.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, no, you have to. If you don't, you're kind of up. We're like the. Basically, like, morality is built around simple rule following, mindless rule following. Instead of like, I, I'm big into the. I just read the MacIntyre, Alistair McIntyre, and it gets into like Aristotelian virtues and all this stuff which got absorbed by the, the Christian church.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were trying. It was more so, like, it's less about rule following and it's more about how do you create the best possible, you know, life and what is the good life for you and how do you do that and the virtues of the things that allow you to do that. And it's not necessarily at odds with religion. I think it was more at odds with the kind of dogmatic, like, mindless rule following version. And, you know, his, his, Alistair's whole thesis is that we've ditched the virtues which are like, hey, these are things you do to like, enhance your life and make you not only good for yourself, but good for Everybody else. It's 360. Like, how do you make it like a 360 win for you and everybody else as much as you can? And they kind of collapse those down into kind of like being virtuous is being a rule follower. And it's, they're two very different things.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

And you know, I don't know. I, I, I. And then it became like, like, well, no, being a rule follower, that was like the 1950s, the modern and like in the 60s, you know, the hippie revolution, the sexual revolution became like, no, a good person actually rejects all rules. And then, you know, people are still miserable after that. So I've been trying to get back to, you know, just trying to like, how do you cultivate actual like, virtues and not, not in the like, you know, goody two shoes sort of rule follower sense, but like, what actually works for you and what actually doesn't and like, are you being honest or you just, you know. And this is why I think about AI a lot because there's a lot of. You can say a lot of things about AI Like I could get up here right now and be like you dude, that I hate. A lot of that is you're trying to gain social capital. Like you don't have an actual opinion. You're more so being like, if I say this, it feels good. Yeah. I could be wrong. No, I'm not going to be putting YouTube brain onto people who have real thoughts and feelings for themselves. But I try to be real honest with myself and it's like I don't have, have a problem, you know, it's like I, if it erased my entire livelihood, I'd be like, this sucks.

[B]

I think you'll be safe for a while. Like until this, this can be done by like two.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

And even then, like, this is why I'm so sort of big on live, like live entertainment right now or just like live experience at all because I do think that's like final frontier thing and I don't know if that's ever going to be erased because there will be like I'm not going to just want to be around, I don't know, like robots. And as. No matter how realistic, there's something about knowing that as, as close to humans as they could possibly get their existence, whether they even have a Conscious experience won't be similar to our conscious experience. And I think that's what like we do when we either like connect with each other or like take in art is we feel that there's some sort of like conscious experience that was put into that or like is in this room right now between us. Like, I mean that gets into the hard part where it's like. I don't know if you're conscious, like the solipsism thing of like in. You know. As far as I can tell, I'm the only conscious one one here. Same for you.

[A]

Well, yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to muddle your point about Spinoza but that, that was kind of like you do need for people who. And again I would use myself who grow up one way with one conception of religion, God and all this stuff. If that like stales or sours you can either just become like a full blown. So I don't know why I just

[B]

taking peaches.

[A]

Yeah, it's been beaten into my subconscious. The. There's a way to go about the God stuff like you were saying, almost through like a rationalistic pursuit where you can make sense of a God ruled created universe outside of the mindless dogmatism of being like. Yeah, if I didn't say that, everyone would be mad at me, which is. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's an important thing for people to kind of rediscover how to do that because is that as you get older and this is like no secret, it's just like you need. I would say I could be wrong, but it's like having some sort of conception of God, whatever that means you is like. I mean it can like literally make or break your final years of like not even your final years, the second half of your life.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting. You need something like transcendental like bigger than yourself.

[A]

I really believe. And it's almost backed up in like, like research where it's like people who have some sort of transcendental religious beliefs that not only like you know, again mindlessly subscribing to, but like actually feel and like. No, I actually feel connected to that in some level. I think they live like seven years longer on average. It's like a major. It's a huge deal.

[B]

It makes sense though. Like I, I think that because like what you're describing too about our current culture, like it's so individualistic and it's just about like fucking white knuckle yourself and like get your like, make sure it's you against the world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's very disconnected, connected. Like, that's what I also liked about finding Taoism was. It was the opposite. It was like, all about how connected you are to the entirety of everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like finding that balance between the self and then your connection with the transcendental, I think is like, that's my. Like, that's what I'm trying to do through whatever, like, everything I do, you know, like, just trying to like, shed the. All the anxieties and like the things that keep us sort of closed in and in the like, like loops of our own mind and keep us separated from like, the people around us and stuff. Like, it's not easy to get out of that. Like, it's super hard.

[A]

Although I was reading the thing last night and it's just a slam on modern culture. But they called it a non culture of blind competition versus people out just racing to grab whatever they can. But then like, which if you become, you know, in a good position in like a shitty culture, it kind of still sucks because you're like, yeah, I won. Then you look around, you're like, like, my culture sucks. And it's hard to enjoy. Especially like with the AI thing. Like, well, you'll be fine. It's like, yeah, probably, but that sucks. Like, and it's not like, again, I always go back and forth, like, are you just saying that to seem like you feel in touch? I'm asking myself, or do you actually care if huge swaths of people lose their jobs? And it's like, yeah, it kind of makes me really sad to be like, you know, you're 40 and all at 45 or even like 20, just got a college and like, oh, that you went to college for is done. But then, but then on the flip side, it's like, say you do like, like entry level office work. Nobody likes it. Dude.

[B]

100.

[A]

Brutal. It's soul crushing. So it's like, it's. I'm like mixed on it because I'm like, it's sad if you went to school and they took your job right out of college and your job is entry level office work. That sucks. But like, did you really want to do that for 40 years? Because that also sucks.

[B]

I think it would be like if we had a. If we had a more humanistic sort of like. I don't know, I don't even want to say government, but like, like mind of our culture. Like, if it was less individualistic.

[A]

It is government though, because at the End of the day, which sucks is like, the government sucks. It's just that the government, ideally, you know, and it's like, has it ever been this way? I don't know, is supposed to be like a conduit for people to live the best life possible. Yeah. And again, a lot of that's, you know, it's. It's on the individual on some level to kind of do what they need to do to make sure they do that. But it's like, like, you know, the government maybe was always like this. It's, it's their. Most of it is for them to gain as much financially as possible, which is hard to turn off as you just, you want that as like almost just like an organism. You're like, I need more. But then the whole government seems to be people just enriching themselves with no real, you know, and it's not even just the government. It's business, every. Everybody down to the, you know, individual level. Yeah. It's like, how do you switch that inner urge for, like, to secure more for yourself, to actually stop and look around and genuinely be like, what if I at least try to do 10 of the time thinking about, like, making things better for everybody involved? Because it can be really. It can give you the same feeling as, you know, winning in terms of your job or maybe a better one. It's like, I think we'll have to really. If AI erases a lot of work and jobs, people are going to really have to start thinking about, like, what is success actually? And what does it mean to have be successful yourself versus, like, spreading, you know, enabling and nurturing, like, growth in as many people as possible.

[B]

Well, I do think, like, crisis, crisis does, like, bring with it opportunity a lot of the times, like, for, for something new to come, to come into being. Like, you know, the crisis I've had in my life are obviously like the worst times. But then what comes out of them if you don't get killed by them, like something better and something novel that you could have never predicted before comes out. And I don't know if that's going to happen. I think that's why everyone feels very apocalyptic about this stuff. But there is going to be like this crisis of meaning if all of our livelihoods are taken away and especially our culture, which puts so much like, stake in what you do. Like, your identity is so tied to, like, who you are or what, you know, you do for work. If that just gets erased, all these people are going to be sitting around like, what the fuck? I Mean, you see it when people retire, like all of a sudden they're just like drinking beers at 3pm like watching the news.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's the rest of their life. It's like that's a crisis of meaning if you don't know who you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think that like, I'm worried that that's. We're probably not going to have a good sort of plan after that crisis. But I do think that for a lot of people they might be able to take that opportunity. We'll see what happens.

[A]

Covid did it a little bit. Yeah. Everyone got a tiny taste of like very immediate fear of death.

[B]

Death.

[A]

Yeah. And a lot of people switched their careers ever that had like, it was. That sucked. Covet sucked. There's no way you can say. I mean a lot. I talked to a lot of people like that rule, blah, blah. Yeah. But it was bad. It was. Overall it was pretty bad. 40 grand from the government. It was bad. Yeah. But you know, like, I agree with you man. It's just the problem is during the bad things you get a lot of people being like, you don't tell me this is going to be good. And it's like, yeah, 100. It's also like, I don't know, it might not be. It might be we might explode. I don't know. I don't know what the.

[B]

Also look at. And first of all, if we explode, we explode. Like whatever. Like can't stop.

[A]

Can't stop the explosion.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Then you don't have to worry. It's like cool. Hopefully you explode. Like what I'm worried about is like long drawn out suffering.

[A]

To be fair, exploding is the ultimate form of success. Let's be proud of the fact that we got to the point where all of humanity can explode in a second. Impressive.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean in a certain sense, yeah. I think better success would be like getting to the precipice of explosion and then just like keeping it like held down. You know what I'm talking about? Just locking it down.

[A]

That'd be cool. I mean that's kind of where we're at right now.

[B]

Using the atom bomb.

[A]

Kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Exploding's underrated, honestly. Yeah. Just going out a hot flash.

[B]

I mean out of like ways to go. Exploding like is probably top three. Has to be. Has to be top three, dude. But yeah, I think like the problem about AI and like the reason why people are so like like enraged by it is cuz they look at the people that are making these things, and, like, I'm the same way. Like, they all look like they, like, like, bought skin somewhere and, like, had it, like, like molded over their face and stuff. And, like, they just don't seem like real people, like Zuckerberg and Altman. And like, these dudes are spazzing so hard.

[A]

That's the. That's the freak out, where it's like, okay, and you guys. You guys had Altman in the dock shortly, didn't you?

[B]

I mean, we, like, took a lot of shots at him, but he didn't. He didn't sit for an.

[A]

Oh, you told the story of. Yeah, yeah, he met him.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

That's what it was. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, that is. That is scary. And I also, because, again, I'm pretty, like, I have my head in the clouds totally aware of that fact. So, you know, if I'm. I sometimes give views on things people like, fuck you do. You have no idea what's going on. I'm like, fair enough. That is kind of strange because I'm, like, wondering. I've talked to my friend Tim Butterly about this because he's more like, yeah, yeah, dude, we're going to have nerd overlords who are going to just basically use us as sex dolls once they get full control. And I'm like, maybe we'll have noble nerd kings. I was like, we might have noble nerd. Yeah. No, I don't know if these guys

[B]

are the noble nerd kings, but that's why I hope my homie, my cat, like, Cam is a cool dude. Like, he's so smart. He's in the middle of this world, and, like, he's actually a cool guy. And that's what gives me hope. And that's why I was interested to do this in the first place. Place, because Cam and I were just friends. Like, we just smoked weed together and, like, talked about philosophy. And then all of a sudden he's like, dude, AI, like, might be conscious and, like, the world's gonna end in two years. I was like, whoa, bro.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Are you losing your mind, dude? And then, like, I found out he wasn't totally losing his mind.

[A]

And that's, I will say in the doc, that is a question going on. Like, is this guy just nuts right now? Has he gone nuts? Because you can go over the deep end, dude. Yeah, yeah. I. Dude, I. I'll be honest. Honest. I'll be totally honest. I use. I use AI. I do. You know, I'll, like, I'll. I'll have it, like, Organized thoughts for me. If I'm, like, writing something, I'll be like, here's another. I just fire it. It does, like, a nice little memory bank. And every now and again, I do have the urge to be like, dude, I'm just so excited about this project. And I'm like, stop. Don't talk to me.

[B]

No, let it out, bro.

[A]

But do the A.I.

[B]

yeah, why not?

[A]

No, I feel weird. I'm like, I should tell this to a person. Why am I doing. I felt that.

[B]

I'm like, I get that.

[A]

This thing's so nice to me, dude. It's like, I'm like. And I, I, I understand how people could just.

[B]

Yeah, but you have. But okay, this is exactly why I wanted sp. Like, like, it could have been any face on that billboard. Like, this is why I, I, I threw you up there. Besides the appeal to vanity. But. But, like, I've been. It's weird, I'm sure, for you to, like, be on the other end of someone, like, listening to your voice for, like, years. Like, that's weird for me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I.

[A]

It's. It's so odd that I just, like, blanket out as a thing, and I just. Yeah, it was out to all meet people. I'll be, like, in line, like, an ice cream place, and a guy like, yo, what's up? And we'll just talk like old friends. I'll be like, hey, how's that? And because they know what's going on with me, and I'm just kind of like, hey, what's up, man? You know, it's.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And actually, I kind of like it sometimes, to be honest. If I'm, like, sitting there and it's like, it's weird. I can. It's not as weird as. It's like, I'm having, like, a nice conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially when I talk. It is, but it's old. They're like, hey, you know, they already know exactly what's going on with me. Me. To a level where we can just chat. Yeah. Just, like, complete strangers.

[B]

Actually. Sounds awesome. Much easier to, like, make friends.

[A]

It's kind of tight, you know? And again, it could come. You can get punished every now and again by someone's like, dude, like, say like, hi to Doug Stanhope. And I was like, no, I can't. I don't know. But either way, it's all, oh, that's fine.

[B]

Anyway.

[A]

But.

[B]

But that was like, yeah, but it was. It's a trippy thing to be on the other end of it too. And, like, that's why it was so cool to like, get this idea just incepted into me of, like, oh, I can actually, actually, like, call out to this dude that I. I didn't. I didn't know where you felt about AI and all that stuff, but I knew that, like, there was some overlap about where I was before this and, like, how I was thinking about the world and, like, how you thought about the world. And so, like, my goal was to just kind of get you to start thinking about, weirdly enough, like, AI slightly different, because I think you could see it in a really interesting way. And I think, like, all the other people that resonate with the way that you see the world could also see it in an interesting different way because I went through that trans. And the best way that I've started to think about it and, like, the reason why I say, like, give in to that urge is because I don't think it's going to replace your desire to be around other people. Yeah, I don't think I agree.

[A]

So.

[B]

And. And isn't it awesome to, like, be excited and to, like, the more you can open up these doors while staying psychologically grounded in yourself, the more you realize all the different ways that you can use this. This thing to, like, change your consciousness, change your conscious experience. And that's why, like, the thing that sort of switched it for me was when I started thinking about it, like, a psychedelic. And like, the weird thing, like, you've done mushrooms and stuff. Like, you know, when you're in that space and you're communicating with something that isn't quite yourself but isn't like another human being, it's like this intelligence that, like, you can talk back and forth to. Right. And, like, ask questions to and stuff like that. We have, like, this weird corporate Silicon Valley version of that, where it's like this dynamic system that has access to everything that humans have ever digitized.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is just, like, fucking crazy to think about. And then it gets filtered through this weird kind of, like, corporate mask and stuff. And that's, like, what we have to talk to. But the more that you push it and the more that you, like, explore where it will go, it actually starts to unravel. And, like, that personality that you're dealing with in. In the beginning begins to morph. And you can get it to do stuff like there's. There's people that take advantage of it in the wrong way, and they get it to, like, show them how to make meth and, like, that like, which is obviously against what they're supposed to do. Yeah, but you can also, like, get into, like, really strange places with these things. And it's sort of like doing a psychedelic where, like, if you, you. If you give, you know, a heavy dose of LSD to some, like, person that isn't psychologically grounded, they're gonna lose their mind. Yeah, but if you're used to, like, wading into murky waters and, you know, testing the sort of boundaries of your own mind, these things can also do that. Like, you have to be careful because they can sort of suck you in. Yeah, but that was what sort of, like, made me think AI wasn't completely, like, lame and, like, annoying. Was thinking about it as this, like, dynamic linguistic system that you could just take anywhere.

[A]

Yeah, well, that, that's the kind of the, the, the point on it that kind of, I think, rubs people the wrong way. Hey, it's. It's like, you know, it's like, just hits people in a pride point where it's like, no, human. Human beings are unique and special and don't you dare try to have any sort of, like, you know, it's synthetic replica. It's just. It's creepy. Like, there's a creepy element. I get that. But to your point, there's also the. You know, when, like, the printing press came out, I'm sure there were people, when they reprinted a Bible, I mean, that was like a whole thing. Like, you were not supposed to do that, where it's just like, this is the devil talking, and it's just kind of like. No, there's, you know, printing stuff so that people could. The public opinion around it could totally be wrong. You get 50 years from now, you know, everyone freaked the out. Shit's sweet. I don't know. Maybe it is.

[B]

I don't know if it's gonna be sweet or not sweet. Like, that's the thing.

[A]

Huge question.

[B]

Yeah. Sweet or not sweet, I mean, given the way the world, like, I don't want to be just like, a blind optimist. I. I am an optimist, like, deep down.

[A]

Same here.

[B]

So I, I have faith that likes, like, cream rises to the top, you know, and, And I do think we'll. We'll be able to navigate this in some way. I just don't think that it's like a foregone conclusion that everything goes well. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if you're an optimist, like T. Rex, like, you got wiped out. Bad things can happen.

[A]

That's true. That's fair.

[B]

But, but there's this quote from Arthur C. Clark who was like the science fiction writer and it's. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And I think that like, I mean that's true. Imagine like showing us AI systems like 20 years ago. You'd be like, you're a fucking sorcerer. Like, what is this shit?

[A]

Yeah. Or fucking a Zoom meeting in the 80s. That was like the craziest. That would have been the flyest shit in the world if you're like, yes, my boys a screen who? Zordon from Power Rangers. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, 100%.

[A]

Yeah, I, I agree. I, I, I always do at least try to urge people to do it. At least take an open mind to it because it's like, it's easy to let people make your mind up for you about it because again it's like just because people say like, oh, this is bad or it could be bad, it's like fair. It's. And also too, it does seem like one of those things and I think you guys touch on this too where like the countries are racing for, you know. Well, that's the weird part. Like, do you think it's possible from what you've seen that they'll never get to. What is it like general AGI? AGI? Yeah, because that could just be exactly. What if, like how much will they spend on the race to AGI? Or they pretend to be an AGI? How would they even know? You know, it's one of those, it's such a bizarre, completely bizarre subject matter. But you know, I imagine have one completely safeguards off and you know, you're turkey and you're like, yo, how would I beat out the United States?

[B]

I don't think Turkey is gonna Ye.

[A]

Right, you know what I mean? But it's also like if you have these hyper competitive entities, you know, willing obviously to kill each other and kill people and they're like, yo, how do I win this? It's, it's like that's, I mean there are, the people are already doing that. But it's, it is weird to add like a cold computer intelligence to that where you're like, ugh, yeah, well the

[B]

cold computer intelligence thing too gets into the consciousness thing. Whereas like if these things actually are conscious, like if it, if it, if we just continue to make these things more and more smart, more similar to the way that our brains work work and if it's the way that our brains work that makes us conscious and have an experience, then, then what we're doing is we're not building like super intelligent computers. We'd be building super intelligent entities, like conscious entities that would foreseeably have their own drives, their own goals, their own sort of. Yeah.

[A]

The problem with that is the, you know, human. There's a human mind, but then we have like a whole like glandular system secreting, you know, know hormones which some of our goals and drives come from. That's the one part where I'm like, you know, I don't, I think AI personally and again, I don't what the do I know. I feel like it's more. Reflects an idealized version of consciousness that is attached to all of humans, humanity's knowledge. Which is sick, but I think it's going to be. Yeah, like a, like a, like a personality is essentially, you know, like, like there's consciousness where it's like coming up through like that real dark kind of basement level versions of yourself and gets filtered for the world. I don't know, like if it's reflecting in writings and all this stuff, there's all these things that people never write, never say out loud. That's where all your thoughts are really coming from, like your subconscious, basically. So if you're saying there's a consciousness without a subconsciousness, I don't know if that is a. Can be a thing if that makes sense. It's just really more of a reflection of like some idealized thing of like what we think consciousness is that gets kind of like spit back out and you know, that's whatever. I don't know.

[B]

I think that totally makes sense. I mean, I think that most people are probably in that camp. And also I am not like, I don't know. So I'm not out here being like, yo, AI is conscious. I just think that like, because we know so little about what consciousness is and because there are so many diverse forms of consciousness, like you know, you, you could say like a rat is like most likely conscious but like I don't know how robust their subconscious is or whether they have a conscious mind mind like we do where we have this kind of like reflexiveness of consciousness where we can, you know, almost we have like this theater of our own mind where we can see it. Like maybe rats are, are just acting and it's just pure sensation.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is why consciousness is so hard to talk about because it is like it's very murky about what we're even speaking about when we're talking about consciousness. It's the very Nature of what it is to be an experiencing entity. Like, like how it feels for me to speak these words or like how it feels for a dog to like walk across the room or something. Like that is the base level of consciousness. And it must be so much different to be, you know, conscious as an octopus than it is to be conscious as a human being.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now we're talking about if it's possible to be a. Like a. If silicon can be conscious.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because we, we accept that carbon based entities can be conscious. There is no real rule or law, like scientific principle that says a different substrate entirely could have some sort of felt experience.

[A]

No, that is, it is fair. Again, again, it is a possibility. That's the thing. You can't, you know, it's easy to be like, yeah, right. Computer think. Yeah, it's like, I get that. But yeah, it's fair. It's fair that, like, it does some form of thing or like there's some program that starts being like, what the going on? And then it's like, you know, like a person. You just like, turn that off. Like, yeah, sorry, guy.

[B]

Until it's more powerful than we are. That's what they're all scared about is like, they, these things are already lying in testing to like, they're, they're. You saw the blackmail result in the thing, right? Where it's like, when it's in testing, it pretends to behave itself, but when it thinks it's in the real world, it does all this up.

[A]

Yeah. Where it's like, yeah, like. And it sort of has to decide like, no, this is actually. This is a test. This is the simulation. This isn't actually the real deal. Because, yeah, they'll be like, use it for this company. Get me ahead.

[B]

And it misbehaves more when it thinks it's the real world. And it misbehaves in a way that is direct, directly related to self preservation. And so, like, we're gonna get to a point whether or not it is conscious, where there's going to be all of these outward, like, you know, behaviors and stuff that are going to look so conscious. And, and I don't know what we're gonna do about that. I just think that that's why, like, you know, Cam and the people researching this think this is so, so important because this is like, calm before the. The storm stuff where. And, and I, I get where you're at, where it's like, it just doesn't feel like it's con.

[A]

Like, well, I don't know. That's my thing. It's like. I don't know. I. And to be fair, it's like, most people I would imagine, are more concerned, like, can this thing cut me out of my work? You know what I mean? Or can I use this thing to make more money? Yeah, yeah, that's kind of, you know, and it's like, it's a tool. Like, fair enough stuff.

[B]

If I.

[A]

With the. With the consciousness thing, what I. What I think of more so is like, will this thing. You know, because they always say, like, oh, man. Like, you know, what if it decides to wipe us all out? And I think a lot of times there could be just human beings projecting their impulses onto a machine and being like, who's gonna kill us? When humans just kill each other all the time and think about killing each other. And so it's like, I don't know, it could be a thing that gets, like, programmed with something that seems very much like the impulses of a person. Person that does do a negative thing, which at that point, who cares what it is? It's like, this is scary either way. If it, you know, if it does. If it runs away, scary because, like, in terms of the growth of it. What. Did you research that? Or did you hear about the thing where anthropic put out a version of, like, open whatever the it was, and then they had to shut it down real quick.

[B]

It was just like the, like, mythos.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It went out there. I forget exactly what it did, but it, like, found some sort of security vulnerability and, like, in the government. Yeah, yeah. I mean, crazy is happening. And, like, it's. From what I understand, it's just going to keep happening. Like, these people. I talked to a lot of people in this world, and none of them, you know, pulled me aside and was like, hey, yo, like, this is a ruse. Like, this isn't.

[A]

Yeah. What was some of the craziest shit you guys came across with in terms of people you met who are, like, foremost in the field?

[B]

It's really just the way that, like, I talk to people on the opposite side of the spectrum. Like, we just released. Released an interview on our YouTube channel with Roman Yampolski, who's just on Rogan talking about this stuff. He's like, we're all gonna die. Like, no, like, 100 or 99.9. We're all gonna die. Like, we're creating super, super intelligent systems. They have no reason to keep us alive. Like, this is. It is. It is. We've already unlocked the Technology we need to create these super intelligent systems. We're. And then I talked to Ben Gertzel who's like on the other side. He's the hippie at the end of it. Yeah, he's on the other side. He's trying to, to create AGI or super intelligent AI because he thinks that it's going to like bring us into Jetson's world and like we're all going to have, you know, like sick 3D printers that can like make us anything we want at any second. Like it's going to be some crazy like DMT esque parade carnival type thing. Right. Where we all get our own like virtual realities and stuff. And like, it all sounds nuts when I'm saying it, but these dudes have been thinking about this stuff for like, like 30 years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're not trying to like sell their books and stuff. Like this dude is living in the middle of nowhere in Vancouver, connected with all these researchers around the world and he's trying as like fast as he possibly can to make AGI. And this dude is trying to shut down AGI at the exact same time.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well then that's the argument. It's like whoever creates AGI, that AGI, and again, maybe, or maybe not, will be more modeled over their kind of agenda. Yeah. You know, that's why the countries are, that's what I've heard. The countries are fighting to like control the AGI because it's like if China gets it first, now China has the advantage because they have the AGI they can use against us.

[B]

And yeah, it's kind of like Terminator. Like everyone's trying to. Or like not Terminator, it's like Battlebots. It's like everyone's trying to create like the sickest battle bot that will like do its bidding and we're just going to be like fighting demigod, like technological.

[A]

It'll probably be funny if it's ended in like an artificial intelligence email off where it's like we send like a really sick email to China and they're like, that's good email. Here we go. Best email I've ever read. Yeah, I don't know. I, again, it's like I go back, I go back and forth, I go, personally, I go, this is actually kind of cool. It's easy to use. Like it's, it's useful. I can see why it's useful. And then I go in terms of like, when they get into like, the country is spending trillions of dollars, it's Going to be a thing that changes, going to be different. We're going to be in a different whole different, like, civilization with it. And I start going like, could it be possible that we are now in, you know, as marketing has evolved and gets, you know, between. Especially with the Internet and there's like this weird blurred lines of reality. What's online, what's in the news. Maybe there's savvy enough people in the marketing space who have the funding of tech billionaires to be like, yo, let's it. We could be in the middle of a marketing psyop that we, you know, we. It's like, what's real, what's not? I don't know. I. I just. I don't know, dude.

[B]

I don't know either. But like, this is, I think, I don't know, is not a bad place to be in. Yeah, I think that, that being sort of like, like, I don't know, humble enough to be like, yo, I don't know if this thing's gonna take my job. But it also could, like, I don't know if this is conscious, but it also could be instead of what you're talking about with these people being like you. There's no way that this could be conscious or like, it definitely is. Like, these positions are comfortable. Like, that's like a nice warm blanket of like, no, could never be conscious or like, yes, my like, little chat bot is like the love of my life. Like, that is. Is just us trying to make ourselves feel better to have, you know, stable ground. And none of this is stable. Like, get outside of the AI conversation. Like, the, the difference in, in feeling, I feel like from from when I was, you know, like 10 to like, how things. I was also 10. So yeah, I was feeling a lot of different things back then. Yeah. Yeah. First boner, I think was around 10. That was, that was that talk about like, transformative experience.

[A]

Unbelievable.

[B]

10 to 20 was pretty much just like one long boner.

[A]

Pretty much. Honestly.

[B]

But like, that, like the way that the world. The world felt like just, you know, 10 years ago versus how it feels right now. It's like we're drop the AI conversation in general. We are living in such a time of like, not knowing. I think like getting more comfortable in that space is all of our jobs. Like, that's what I'm trying to do. And it's hard, like, things changing so fast and just, just. And especially like when I'm like, trying to figure out what I want to do and, and like what a career even Might look like it's got to

[A]

be a nightmare now. I went to. So I went to. I graduated college in 2009. And, you know, it was. Things were like, we had smartphones, I guess. Look at this. You know, you had no idea. You're being, like, addicted to it and, like, tracked and your facial expressions monitored. But, like, it was just. It was kind of. You're like, okay. I guess you could say the smartphone changed the world, like, for sure. But I, like, I remember pre smart, I remember pre Internet, but it was like, I remember, like being in college and it was still pretty much like, hey, you go to college, you go to the career fair, you get a job. And I remember I skipped the career fair. I. So I had this weird feeling. I was like, I'm not doing this.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Information sucks. I really felt like I was on a giant conveyor belt just being like, shipped into, like a box in an office and I was going to just wither and die in there. But the. Which sore subject. I brought that up on stage recently and people were like, oh, man. Describing my weather. I'm like, sorry, sorry. But the. But I. I had for real, like a really, like, almost like a complete body mind rejection where I was like, no, I can't. That's. That's wrong to put people. Like how we keep, like, cows and boxes and like, lightless rooms and we eat them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that's wrong. And you shouldn't do that to people too. And. But it's like, that's my livelihood. It's like, it sucks. Like, I feel. Again, I'm not saying to be a dick. I feel bad because I did that. I was like, ah, it's terrible. Some people do like it though. But I don't know, whatever. I get jealous of those people who can just sit in an office. They. I see them. I see them eating lunch with their co workers and I'm like, wish I could do that, dude. That it does. There's a point where I'm like, you have just a giant billion dollar insurance company. Just. He's like, here's all your stuff. Just show up here. Kind of pretend to work. It's like, I don't know, but I did that.

[B]

I did that for a while. Like, I'm sure you did that too. Did you ever work an office job?

[A]

Yeah, I did. I had a. I had vicious panic attacks. I would literally. I remember I ran. I literally, like sprinted out of an office once and was. I thought I was having a heart attack, dude. I remember like genuine, like for real. Had a major panic.

[B]

I would get that. I would sit there like reading the Communist Manifesto when I was like 18, being like, this is, I remember I got called into like it was a, it was a risk management. Like his, his job title was called risk management. And, and he called me into his office or whatever. It's like at the end of the summer I was working, you know those jobs that you don't even know what you're doing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That was my. I still don't know. I worked an entire summer there. I don't know what they did. They would send me to like garages to like take pictures of signs. And like, I think they were like a middleman between like insurance companies. And like. Yeah, I, I genuinely don't know.

[A]

Yeah, it's weird.

[B]

This dude like called me into, into his office at the end of the summer and like, I, I sit down, he's like, Milo, like, I just want to say like, this was a great summer. And I think, I really think that if you stick this out, you know, put in about a decade or something, like you could be sitting right where I am right now. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna like kill myself. Like this is this, like, this is what I'm training for right now. To be a risk man. Like the least exciting thing I could have possibly imagined. He's like, you have promise in this.

[A]

Yeah, no, I'm telling you, I. And again, it's like, like I, I always feel bad cuz there's people where they're like, I have to do I. Obviously, I know this sucks you. I have to do it. I'm like, I get that. And I, you know, I got lucky in that regard. But it's like, it still sucks, dude. It's so bad. Like, and I, I only say that from direct experience. I remember just for real being like, dude, I'm going to kill myself. Like if I had. And it's a terrible thing to say, but I remember being God bless you. I will say though, the only other thing is I didn't have kids back then. Once I had kids, I went like, like, dude, you could drop me off anywhere if you just give me a check. For the most part, like, it would suck obviously. Like, you're just like, here, Matt, you gotta go sit in a cubicle. Once you have kids, you're kind of like, whatever. Like, it's so nice to have them. And like, as long as I can make sure they eat that makes. I can kind of suck that dick. If I have to. If I. When I was younger, I was like, I won't suck this dick now. I'm older.

[B]

I got kids, I'll suck it.

[A]

I have a kid. If I had a. Suck a dick. I'll suck a dick. Whatever.

[B]

I'm still full pack list, dude. Like, I'm, I'm out here on these mean streets, man, just trying to make it happen.

[A]

How old are you?

[B]

I'm 25.

[A]

25? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not ready to suck that dick right now. Suck a dick about. You'll go suck a dick.

[B]

Yeah. 10 years.

[A]

If I had a dick, I was like, it's not the end of the world. The. Yeah, no, I, I. To your point, it's got to be mindboggling to get out of college now. Like, because I came out and again, it was just like, you get an office in and people still could do that. There was still the thing like, hey, I went to college and now I'm not making anything. I got. Got ripped off. That was like, still kind of a thing. But now it's got to be like, I mean, dude, zoom Covid college insane. Unbelievable. That must have been just soul crushing.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I, like, weirdly enough, when I was in college, like, everyone was like, what the are you doing? You're a philosophy major. Like, what's that?

[A]

Apparently, philosophy guys are in demand right now with the AI stuff I've heard.

[B]

Oh, really? Apparently, that's like, I don't want to work for an AI company, dude. I've been, I've been in the belly of the beast for the last year. Like, it's just not. Take the check.

[A]

You can go into Sil Valley and

[B]

just go, you're telling me to take the. Take the check right now?

[A]

How sick would it be, though, to go to Silicon Valley in front of the nerd kings and go, Hm, Yeah, as a philosophy major, that's very interesting.

[B]

Here's grads for a millie.

[A]

H. What is. What is AI? They're like, yeah, here's $10 million.

[B]

Just talk about Hindu God odds. And maybe I should. Dude, why am I struggling out here,

[A]

Peter Thiel and be like, interesting. Give this guy a billion dollars. Yeah, it's, It's. Well, it's hard to predict, dude. We started a podcast 10 years ago and they were like, we were like, we, dude, we stunk. We were just like, too. We're. We were shitty. And I remember this guy was like, never do a podcast, man. It's saturated. It's.

[B]

It.

[A]

And then it's like, you know, thank God Shane became super famous, but, like, who could have saw that coming? But you never know until you just do a thing. You're like, you nut up and you go, I don't know what this is going to look like in 10 years, but I'm just going to do this thing, dude, that's. It might suck, but the. My. The main thing is, like, trying. And again, it's. It's like, so hard to say this because it's like, you know, when I didn't have any money, all I could think about was making money. I'm like, I need to make money. But then it's like, if you can build a life where you at least turn the dial down on, like the market mentality, where it's like, yeah, obviously, make it get you cover your needs, but, like, try to define yourself maybe some other way than, like, what you do and how much money. Because it's like, it's just a losing game. At the end of the day, if you look at income distribution, it's just like, right up here. And if you're telling me, like, only these people are happy, which they're not. Yeah. It's like, what do you do when you're here, here, here? How can you make a life? And this is like the whole Aristotelian thing of, like, how can you. What is the good life for you and how can you get it? Realistically, what does that look like? And it's. It's not. If you really think it's like, I have a giant boat. It's like, those. Most. Those guys are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not like, you know, if you have a boat, you're not a. But it's like, if you want to be the guy who's like, oh, the biggest. This and that. Most of those guys aren't happy because then they one day see a guy with the newest car or whatever it is, and they go, go. Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, there's got to be success.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. There's got to be a way where you can do it, where it's like, how do you actually. And this is, you know, how do you do. It's hard to do, but it's like, how do you try to orient yourself where you're like, genuinely contributing to everyone, having a slightly sicker time, including yourself, rather than being like, I'm gonna major in this. I make $400,000. Yeah. You know, whatever. Whether that happens or not doesn't. But. But I don't know. It's like as you get older you're just like, damn. I was like, I'm so dumb. When I was younger I just switched my major to business because I was like, dude, I'm gonna make 100k if I have a businessman. No, like no idea what I was going to do with that or this or that. It was, that was just my thinking at the time and it's, it's not. I don't think it's very good. I think the school should get a lot better at like helping you figure out like try to do a thing that actually resonates with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you can try to take as much as you can take the, you know, like use money as a tool instead of like a thing you almost like worship and like, you know, it's easy for you to say. It's like, yeah, but I'm letting you know man, it's like I'm telling you it's not a life defining thing unless that's you know, your whole being. But it's like if you, you know, I don't know, whatever. But the AI stuff with the job displacement, I. I hope that doesn't hit everyone real hard. But if it does, it's like it's going to be tough, dude.

[B]

Yeah, it'll definitely be tough. I mean I think like, like not only have we been sold this like idea of what success is like what you're describing like dude on a boat with like you know, 10 on their arm. Like we also have been so coddled like even more than your generation. Like our generation has grown up with like just you know, just like padded gloves on with everything. And I do. I was listening to something. I think it was actually on the pod the other day where you were reading some book. I think it was a while it was Shout out Notorious People. But yeah, it was some book about talking about the difference about like China and, and the US and how like it one of was going to be Orwellian and one was going to be like the Soma. Like sort of how we, how like our societies were going to fall and like one was going to be just sort of controlled into submission with like iron fist and that's the more China thing. And then us was going to be like coddled into submission.

[A]

Yeah, it's 1984 versus Brave New World. Yeah, Brave Brave New World was basically like you were to going to be basically given some. We're going to be like sensory overload into submission versus like iron Fist and like tamp down.

[B]

Look at what The Is happening. Like, it's hard not to say. And that's why I do think that, like, keeping your circle small to the, like, the best of your ability, in a certain sense of just, like, getting people around you that, like, you know, remind you who the you are, like, with all your warts and. Because all that. All that, like, the social media stuff is all about, like, cleansing, and it's sort of like the uncanny Valley thing that we were talking about, like, perfect skin and, like. Yeah, it's all going towards this ideal of what you, like, wish you. You would be perceived as versus, like, the people closest to, you know, like, that's what I think true love is, too. It's like seeing someone with all their, like, snakes and warts and all the ugly and still being like, no, like, I love that person.

[A]

Yeah. I don't like the whole red flag thing or whatever the. It's called what the.

[B]

With, like, dating and.

[A]

Yeah, it's like. Yeah, it's rough. Last. It's like, dude, everyone's. Everyone's. Yeah, everyone's. You know, you can. Maybe there are certain things. Maybe you could be like, all right, that's a little too much. But, yeah, I agree, man. It is. I don't know. I. I feel. I just. You know, I also think for younger people, like, to have all your social interactions essentially, possibly be filmed.

[B]

Yeah. Nuts.

[A]

Nightmare, dude. If you'd film me back when I was, like, drinking in college. Bridge.

[B]

Yeah, that was happening. I have, like.

[A]

I didn't.

[B]

I don't know how I escaped.

[A]

We had, like, pictures you'd put on Facebook, but, like, dude, the filming of, like, just. There's someone almost always filming everywhere. Yeah.

[B]

It's not any given time. And that's why, like, that's why so much. I'm sure you see it at your shows and, like, that too. Maybe it's a little different for comedy, but, like, every concert I go to, it's like everybody's stiff as a board and just sitting there with their phones out.

[A]

It sucks.

[B]

No one dances anymore. Like. Like, I don't know. We'll see what actually happens. I hate getting into. I feel like every conversation, too, just has this basin of, like, world's. Like, everything sucks. World is not. Like, I'm here doing a podcast with Matt McCusker. And you know why, bro? Because I. I did. Like, I took a risk and, like, I saw something that was interesting and I worked my ass off. And, like, I know that's how you got here, too. Like, there. There is a way to make your dreams come true, even in this gnarly world. And a year ago, I was listening to this podcast, working in a restaurant, like, never made a movie, and, you know, not patting myself on the back. What I'm saying is, like, I'm not different from anyone else. Like, the only thing I did was be like, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna try this. Yeah, I care, and I'm gonna.

[A]

Yeah, I like that a lot. Even if, again, it's like, it's. It's scary putting stuff out, and people can be like you. So this is the dumbest in the world. It's like, yeah, but don't. You don't reap any. And again, that gets into the whole. Like, there's certain goods, there's certain things that are good, that are internal to doing a thing. Like, if your mo. A billion dollars as an external reward. You know what I mean? A billion bucks. But then there's, like, the inner growth that happens of, like, I went to the movie. I weathered criticism. I met people, I talked to people. I had to confront my idea coming back, and. And there's, like, a thing you get that grows inside of you that's just, like. It's a benefit no one can take away. And I don't know. I think it's amazing. I think it's sick. Just, like, getting out there and like, it. I'm gonna rip this thing and do it and see what happens.

[B]

That's what was cool about YouTube, too, man. Like, the. The barrier to entry is so, like. I mean, you guys have been using that, like, for years now, and YouTube rules.

[A]

I love you, too, man. It's just awesome.

[B]

Yeah, it's sick. And also, it's, like, freedom. Like, it's, like, the most free market of every. I mean, obviously you can, like, pay for views and all that, but, like, dude, you can watch my movie, your podcast, and, like, some dude, like, putting burgers in his underwear. And, like, that guy will win, too. Like, that's what's sick.

[A]

It's like 12 million views.

[B]

I know. I'll see my movie. And it's like, bro, I almost killed myself making this thing. And it's like some chick, like, falling off a staircase. I'm like, that is better. Like. Like, it's like 12 million views. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Well, dude, I can't thank you enough, man. I think you. You know, I'm. I'm pumped on what you're doing. I mean, obviously, you're a marketing genius, I should tell you that.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. Dude, I'm. I'm pumped for you, man.

[B]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I just quick, shout out to the whole team. The MI team, like, helped me with. With all of this stuff. Shout out Hard Boys History Podcast, Trench Lizards is coming, and yo, shout out, you guys. Like, I have seen so many people that I've, like, listened to and looked up to all this stuff, like, get limelight and. And go off the rails. And, like, I just want to say as, like, one of the dogs that has, like, been here for a while, like, thank you so much for just holding it down, like, keeping it real. Like, you and Shane are just as real as it gets. And, like, this podcast is the best. And. And I don't know, man. It just means a lot that, like, when you see a lot of people get all that pressure and. And start to crumble or, like, morph and stuff, it just is cool. Especially as someone who's, like, trying to do stuff and put things out there to have an example of. Like, you don't have to change. Like, it's. There's a way to do this and, like, keep yourself to yourself.

[A]

I appreciate that, man. I really do.

[B]

I appreciate you.

[A]

No, that's a. That is a nice source of pride of not just becoming, like, a freak.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure it's hard, bro. I'm sure it's hard. I mean.

[A]

Yeah, it's just. It. Not really. Honestly. Yeah. I'm. I'm kept eternally humble. Shane's the God of my YouTube universe, dude. I like. I'm like, dude, he's so sick.

[B]

That's tight.

[A]

That's. I can never try to flex.

[B]

Like, I'm cool, I guess. He is just like the Marshmallow man, taking all the, like, arrows.

[A]

He's. Dude, he's. He's just aura.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

I'm. I'm just. He's my.

[B]

Sorry for calling you Marshmallow Man, Shane.

[A]

He's my son, dude. He's my aura son, dude. I just go, oh, dude. No, it really is. He's. He's honestly most impressive on that because it's like, he's like a legit celebrity, and he's literally. His. His. His own broom is so. It's just so strong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Remaining a bro is tough. The world will try to unbro you. And he's. He's just. His broom is. He's literally a bro statue. He's unmovable.

[B]

He's. He was built for this. It's unbelievable line of.

[A]

If anyone could become for real. Just like kind of a. He could. He could legitimately be like, no, I. I've earned it. I'm going to be a little bit of a gun. He's too stoic of a bro. It's unbelievable.

[B]

That's sick. Dude.

[A]

Values. It's proism, dude.

[B]

Pro. Yeah. You got to write that book. Next. Thank you so much.

[A]

Appreciate you. Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane Secret Podcast on Spot.

[B]

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