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- [00:01]
A
Wild, wild west Fired up, fired up.
- [00:04]
B
Joe Alto. How you doing, brother?
- [00:06]
A
What's up, man?
- [00:06]
B
Welcome, cast.
- [00:07]
A
Dude.
- [00:08]
B
Joe Alto. We met online. So we met and I'll just say it. We, we. You messaged me and we linked up based on not looking at porn.
- [00:18]
A
Yeah. By the way, raw question.
- [00:21]
B
Yeah.
- [00:21]
A
How crazy did you think I was when I sent you those emails?
- [00:25]
B
Not that crazy.
- [00:26]
A
Okay.
- [00:27]
B
I didn't think you were that crazy because it's like crazy messages. You just know them when you see them. You know what I mean? Like people. When crazy Internet people will hit you with. It's usually kind of scattered. I saw that and I was like, oh, it's kind of sick.
- [00:41]
A
Okay.
- [00:41]
B
So I wasn't. I didn't know. I get crazy vibes and usually there's like. Because you don't see every message, but they'll usually be like 19 messages before those ones, like some in all caps. And you go, ah, yeah, crazy guy.
- [00:54]
A
Yeah.
- [00:54]
B
But no, I just saw it and I was like, damn, that's kind of sick. Okay, so. And again, just to like, you know, I'm sure you've known from listening, but it's like for me, I. I have mixed views on the whole. Well, let's say like the, the approach, the online approach, or, you know, people take into real life of like, you're either a porn consumer or you're a non porn consumer. Porn consumer is very simple. Non pork and porn consumer is kind of complex because it's like, there's like complete nofap over here, which I'm like, that's just impossible.
- [01:26]
A
Sure.
- [01:26]
B
You can try it if you want. I find it to be utterly impossible for myself. And then there's like no porn at all. Then there's no masturbation. There's like hard mode, no faps off, you know, all that. I'm sure you're aware of all that stuff. So I, I always, for me, I always try to not take a super dogmatic approach, if that makes sense, where it's like, if you, if you fucking do it, you're done. You're a piece of shit. But. But recognizing that, I'm like, I really want to get this out of my life.
- [01:55]
A
Sure.
- [01:55]
B
And I have, thank God for now. But the. Yeah, please, please. But I know I've done a couple, you know, like hotel weekend trips by myself are the absolute ultimate test. So I've passed a couple of those. But. Yeah. So tell me about. So you have, you have an app, right?
- [02:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [02:12]
B
You work for an app?
- [02:13]
A
Yeah, I work for an app. It's called Relay.
- [02:15]
B
What is it called?
- [02:16]
A
Relay.
- [02:16]
B
Relay.
- [02:17]
A
Got Relay Health. Yeah. And it's a porn addiction recovery app. Right. So, yeah, the guy started it probably. I think it's been five years now. We've been up and running.
- [02:27]
B
How many people have used it?
- [02:29]
A
How many people have used it? I know. Right now we have a. There's about 4,000 in the app right now.
- [02:34]
B
Nice.
- [02:35]
A
More than that. Have. Have used it, you know, in the history of the app. But we have a pretty good user base. And it's mostly guys.
- [02:40]
B
Yeah. And I'll say this, too, because you do whenever. Every time around the. Let's say, masturbation porn discussion, whenever you're, like, anti or, like, hey, maybe not the best move. You do get these guys. I'm sure you've dealt with them, who are like, oh, yeah, dude, porn fudgeing rules. You guys are being babies, and I just want to stage, for the record. Totally fair. You can do that if you want, but that is the male equivalent to, like, when girls are like, my vibrator. It's kind of.
- [03:06]
A
Yeah.
- [03:06]
B
It's kind of fucking lame. Like. Yeah. Like, my vibrator is like, okay, like, enough of that.
- [03:12]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's.
- [03:14]
B
Come on. We don't want to hear about. I want to bring back. My dad used to always be like, if you mention porn, he'd be like, what are you, weirdo?
- [03:20]
A
Same here.
- [03:20]
B
The wrong with you. Like, it was a genuine threat.
- [03:23]
A
No, to this day, my dad is a. I. I've asked him bluntly. I go, dad, have you ever. What was, like, your history with porn? He's like, never done it. I'm a man. Swear. I swear to God. My dad's been, like, never jagged off, never looked at porn. And it's fucking gross because he's like, I got your mom.
- [03:44]
B
And I'm like, either. Yeah. Oh, God. Okay, E. That's the worst.
- [03:48]
A
Yeah. No, but that's, like the raw. Like, that's the honest to God, what he's told me.
- [03:52]
B
Also, though, back then, there was a barrier if you wanted porn back then. I don't know how you. My dad's, like, in his 70s.
- [03:59]
A
Yeah. My dad's 65.
- [04:00]
B
So if he. If you wanted porn, he. They had to, like, go to, like, bookstores and all. But also, there was, like, a bunch of guys trying to blow you the whole time if you wanted to get porn. Like, it was for real. If you want.
- [04:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:12]
B
Porn. Like, porn shops.
- [04:14]
A
Yeah.
- [04:14]
B
Was associated with, like, underground sexual hedonists. That's. That's kind of the deal. Like, if you were even around there, it's like, yo, what the.
- [04:24]
A
Are you guys gonna suck your dick?
- [04:26]
B
Yeah. Like. Yeah, Especially back then, they didn't have sex ahead of you.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah. No. What, Mr. Yeah. Exact. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:34]
B
No.
- [04:34]
A
It was always an adventure. It's an adventure.
- [04:37]
B
It was different. It was different. I'll never forget my dad. This is, like, really bad. But I remember he went to buy. There's this guy who, like, fixed lawnmowers. And the guy happened. He would sell porn. Like, VHS is all this stuff he was selling on, like, Craigslist. So my dad went there to get his lawnmower out. We'd always be like, yeah, right, dude, you're buying poison. I swear. To get the. Out of porn. But he was there, and the guy was like, yo, hold on. I got this guy. He's buying a bunch of VHS's off me. He's trying to watch him, and he asked me if he can watch him in my basement. I'm like, man, get the out of here. The dude comes out. It was a dad from one of the girls in our, like, grade school. Like, 23 kids in our class. It was a small Catholic school. And I remember he, like, was telling. I remember all the dads laughing. We're at, like, an eighth grade dance. They're all laughing. And I was like, what are you guys laughing at? They're like, I forget about. Forget. And then later he told me. He's like, yeah, we saw blah, blah, Blah's dad trying to watch VHS with the guy who fixed our lawnmower. And I was like, damn, it's gross. But. And again, it's like, to your point, it's. With the app. It's. It's different for us. It's more. It's everywhere. It's. We're. We're completely tapped into it.
- [05:41]
A
It's.
- [05:41]
B
It's a. It's a different thing. We got. We were basically all like, crack babies with porn. But, you know, we got born into this. You know, we kind of hooked in. So how. In terms of the app, what is the. What's, like, the guiding philosophy?
- [05:54]
A
Yeah, guiding philosophy would be you don't have a porn problem. You have a pain problem. A lot of guys have a difficult time even understanding what that is. Like. It's just difficult. Maybe you have some conscious moment where you do realize that, yeah, I'm using this as a baby blanket. But that's just also, like, a very difficult endeavor to deal with by Yourself. So yeah, it's like you have a pain problem you've associated at some point in your history with porn. You start off and it's. It's great, it's innocent. You start looking at it around whatever, 11 and 11 or 12 years old, and you use it for whatever purposes. Right. Like I said, because it's naked chicks.
- [06:32]
B
It really does start as simple as like, naked chicks.
- [06:35]
A
Naked chicks. You're not gonna see a naked chick when you're 12 for quite a long time, more than likely. You shouldn't.
- [06:40]
B
You shouldn't. You really shouldn't.
- [06:43]
A
Yeah, knock on wood.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah.
- [06:45]
A
There's always that one guy though, in like the eighth grade where you're just like, holy. Like, you did that and. But that's just that one guy. I was never that guy. No, no, you probably weren't either.
- [06:53]
B
No, that guy probably also had pubes when he was like four. So. But yeah, no, but.
- [06:58]
A
So you start looking at it when you're young and then at some time, at some point in your maturation process as a young man, whatever type of disappointment that you go through. Right. It could be in sports, it can be with the ladies, it can be with, you know, get a bad grade, whatever.
- [07:12]
B
Really.
- [07:12]
A
Like simple shit. Yeah. But you just go back. Yeah. You get enough on your paper and you feel like shit and you know porn is going to make you feel good, so you do it. And then you just unlock this crazy circuitry in your brain that it connects any type of. Like, you're literally training yourself. You're like a dog. Like, you're training yourself to associate pain with porn and it gets unconscious. And then you have all these like 35 year old guys who have very stressful lives. Right. Like we all do. And now it's so unconscious. Have a bad day at work. Maybe it's the muscle memory of driving home. You get into an argument with your wife, you notice a cavity. All the. You just go to porn.
- [07:53]
B
Porn time.
- [07:54]
A
Porn, porn, porn, porn.
- [07:55]
B
Yeah. Well, it's funny too because it's like, you know, your parents, I remember like, dude, if we, we got caught with porn a couple times in our house and they'd be like, what the. They were. They'd be so mad. Yeah. I remember it being a kid, being like, dude, I wish they'd lax up about this. Like, what the is their problems? There's a kid, you're going like, no, guys, this rules. Like, I don't think you guys understand. Like, this is the best. Yeah, but you'd have it. We had I grew up, it was like there was literally like 16 kids on the properties. Me and my cousin's family's right next to each other. And like, a VHS would come, someone would get one, and it would fucking cycle through, and everyone would be like. I remember being like. I remember knowing there was a VHS across the street at my cousin's house and just being like. I wouldn't see it for, like, five days, but I'd be like, yes.
- [08:37]
A
Yeah, you're thinking about it.
- [08:38]
B
So amped.
- [08:40]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:40]
B
But like you were saying, it's like that. That young. During those young, formative stages, you're. You're just like, you know, you don't realize how geeked. You know, you're in adult, and you're like. You're like, all right, I can calm myself now. It's like, you didn't always have that, so it's like most adults probably don't even still today. But it's like, I. I barely do myself. But it's like, as a kid, when something hits you, it rocks you. You're getting so upset if someone's like, you loser. You're like. Like, it. It kills you. And you have. You know, you have the porn, the porn, the porn. And then, you know, finally, I remember college, and it's like, I can download as much porn as I want on my computer. This is this shit. And then, you know, it goes on and on and on and. Yeah, just. Really? I think you do. Personally, me, I've hit a point where I remember just thinking, like, yeah, I just don't. It would be nice to not deal with that.
- [09:31]
A
But you get bored of it at some point. Yeah. You start, like, honestly. And I think it. That's part of it. Like, I know. At least for me, it was you. I don't know if it's boredom. Yeah, that's not my. That might not be the best word, but, yeah, you're just like, what the fuck am I doing?
- [09:42]
B
Well, yeah, it's. Yeah, boy, that's a good distinction. It's not necessarily boredom. It's just kind of like, oh, man, how much longer? It's just, you know, I'm giving this to this thing, which, again, then you, like, look at the porn industry as, like, an apparatus, and it's like, it's really sad. Like, you know, you can say, I don't even want to think about that. But it is. It's like, you know, you have these. Let's just say mostly women. Although the guy's stories. I watch a lot of soft White underbelly. So I watch a lot of these stories of people like in the, you know, porn industry and all this stuff. And it's almost always very. A sad origin story where it's like a girl was sexually abused or this or that.
- [10:22]
A
Bad family life.
- [10:23]
B
Yeah, always pretty bad. And then the guy. Their count male counterparts is never exactly great either, for the most part. So it's like you have these people and it's. This might be a bad way to put about. This is how, like, my mind kind of like, you know, organizes it. It's like you have these people who are like, you know, in some way have caught a very raw deal in society. Like, imagine a beggar who's like, beggars usually are beggars because it's just all the shit got fucked up in their lives and now the beggars and like. And if you walk by them and just fucking jerked off on them, it's like, that's kind of how I started feeling. It's like they're not obviously beggars.
- [10:58]
A
Yeah.
- [10:59]
B
But it's like they've been dejected by very important parts of their life in a very intimate way, and they get fed into this machinery that very clearly rips them apart.
- [11:10]
A
Yeah.
- [11:10]
B
Female porn stars do not age well. No, there's been like four. And the only reason they did is because they became movie stars and they got to like, get out of born life. But the people in there are being grinded to a pulp in, like, a way that's hard to comprehend. And then I always just felt doubly disgusting being like. And just jerking off. It was just like. I get to a point where you're like, dude, I just. Again, it's not like a powdered wig where I'm kind of being like, evil. It's just like.
- [11:39]
A
I get it.
- [11:40]
B
I totally get it. I just. Man, I'd love to not have that on my conscience. Or just like you were saying, with like, masking pain problems or being like, I'm gonna go jerk off now.
- [11:51]
A
Well, yeah. And I think. I don't know. I mean, there's obviously still activities that I still like to do that I started when I was a kid. Right. Like, I still like sports. I still, you know, some other shit. But there's also like a lot of things I did as a kid that I don't do anymore because I realize, I don't know, just you get over.
- [12:10]
B
Not kid.
- [12:10]
A
Yeah, yeah, I'm not a kid. Like, it's simple. Yeah, exactly. It's simple as that. He's not a kid.
- [12:14]
B
Saying porn. You're, in a way, saying porn is for kids. It's a kid thing.
- [12:19]
A
It's a kid.
- [12:20]
B
Like Frosted Flakes.
- [12:21]
A
Yeah, just like.
- [12:26]
B
I know what you mean. It's baby.
- [12:28]
A
Yeah. Well, yeah.
- [12:29]
B
And you.
- [12:29]
A
Yeah, you get to pour.
- [12:31]
B
Is for babies. It kind of is. It is. It is a. It's a. It is a juvenile response.
- [12:42]
A
But again, Frosted Flake thing was fine.
- [12:44]
B
I didn't even make that joke.
- [12:45]
A
But. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:46]
B
But it's true. But I. I get what you're saying. It's. And again, the problem is. The problem is with this, it's not. It can come off as a holier than thou thing. And it's like, bro, anything but.
- [12:57]
A
And that's. You hear that with a lot of the guys who are, you know, pretty. I don't know if it's like, staunchly. But, yeah, they'll. They'll make the religious argument. They're like, no, porn's fine. Like, the only reason why you don't think porn's fine is because, yes, you grew up Catholic or you grew up.
- [13:12]
B
Yeah, it's all that guilt you have. Excess of guilt and blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [13:15]
A
Yeah, and we both grew up Catholic. And you got that. You definitely got that to some degree for sure.
- [13:21]
B
I remember jerking off on Easter and being like, I'm going to hell. You want to talk about dedication to the game? We're all. If you're a porn user, the Lord.
- [13:29]
A
The Lord forgave you. Forgave. You know, he died for your sins. You just decided to.
- [13:33]
B
I didn't understand that part. I was just like, the guy died, but there's God. He's going to punish my ass and I'm going to hell.
- [13:40]
A
Done.
- [13:40]
B
But here's.
- [13:41]
A
It is. You still might. Still might. When you. When you get to the prayer, the gates of, like, Matt, Remember that one time when you jacked off on Easter when you were 13? That was it.
- [13:50]
B
So I would gladly say, take me, my bad. I'm going down. Here's the thing. Here's the thing with that, though. When people go, oh, that's just excess Catholic guilt, it's like, okay, I hear you, because, you know, But. But. But then it's like, I feel like a lot of people who would be against that tend to. Not always, but tend to be of a more like, politically liberal kind of, you know, I think, leaning.
- [14:15]
A
Yeah, I think that's.
- [14:16]
B
And who's more Guilt. They're the guiltiest of all. So it's like, dude, don't come at me for my guilt. We'll talk guilt.
- [14:21]
A
So it's a good point.
- [14:22]
B
And it's like, maybe you should feel good. That's. To get older.
- [14:26]
A
That's another thing. Dude, there's. I. Yeah, I think we probably should feel more guilty, especially once you have.
- [14:32]
B
Here's the thing, too.
- [14:32]
A
When you have kids and you have a wife.
- [14:34]
B
Exactly.
- [14:34]
A
There. You actually should feel guilty about things
- [14:36]
B
if you're in the bathroom at night jerking off.
- [14:38]
A
Yeah.
- [14:39]
B
That's an understandable response to go, I think I'm fucking missing the market.
- [14:42]
A
You're throwing one in the toilet. Four hours ago, you were literally just telling your kid to take a shit on that toilet. It's weird.
- [14:49]
B
It is weird.
- [14:50]
A
It's a weird thing.
- [14:51]
B
And if they. If they walk in, God forbid, kids can have dreams, kids can wake up.
- [14:55]
A
You're fucked.
- [14:56]
B
You've. You've literally altered their life trajectory. And I would say a negative way. Unless you convince them it was all just a dream. Go to bed.
- [15:03]
A
Yeah.
- [15:04]
B
Don't ever bring this up ever again.
- [15:05]
A
Don't tell your mom.
- [15:07]
B
I'll foster. So. Yeah.
- [15:09]
A
Yeah. No, no, no. That's always the thing that strikes me weird is like, guys are usually. Usually jacking off in their house. Right. Married men.
- [15:17]
B
Yep.
- [15:18]
A
And you. It is weird. Like, you associate all these memories with your house or you do things with your kids in your house. Right. Like I said, like, you give them a bath and then in that same bathroom, you're fucking. You know?
- [15:30]
B
Yeah.
- [15:30]
A
It's weird. And you should feel guilty about that.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah. That's fair.
- [15:33]
A
I think you should.
- [15:34]
B
That's not ideal. Yeah, it's not ideal.
- [15:36]
A
You know, I don't think you. And here's the deal. That's different than being like, you're a complete piece of shit. Like, you're not a complete piece of shit. You're a little piece of shit. Right?
- [15:44]
B
But.
- [15:44]
A
Yeah, a little bit. But. No, no, no. And that's. That's. That's the thing that, a lot of, you know, guys like me and you, who grew up in that space, in the Catholic space. Yeah. You just think that you're a piece of shit. But that's not even. I'm not going to get into, like, the whole, like, theology of it. But that's not even necessarily what the church says.
- [16:02]
B
Right.
- [16:03]
A
It's like, you're not. You're not necessarily going to hell. You're not like.
- [16:07]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And that's. That's the thing. Yeah. We talked about is like, the A lot of the resistance is like a good, bad binary where it's like, if you do this thing, you're bad. If you do this, you're good.
- [16:16]
A
Yeah, that's such a shitty way of approaching.
- [16:19]
B
Yeah, it's more like, here's what I'm up to right now. It could. I could be a little bit better. What's. Some of the stuff I have to shed? And dude, I will say it's like, you know, again with just like the. In a marriage, if you're. If you're a guy who's by himself, you're young, you're like. You're trying to figure things out. It's like, it's. Yeah, it's not. Obviously, it's not the end of the world if you rub one out so you can fall asleep.
- [16:43]
A
That's a. I agree. I really. I honestly got. And it's hard working in this space. You get a lot of. Like, you were kind of listing out a little bit ago. Like, you have, like, your purists, like, never do this.
- [16:55]
B
Yeah.
- [16:55]
A
And like, there is. I mean. Cause there obviously is a difference between being married and being single. Just. There is. I think why it's good to try to shore this up now when you're a single guy is because you're gonna. So many guys think that when they get married. Well, I would say, like, a lot. I mean, especially the religious people I know, a lot of them think when they get married, this is just gonna be like the magic pill that makes them stop. And it's like, nah, you're just gonna do it fucking more. Right. Because being married, you're more stressed when you're married. You're more stressed when you have kids. So if anything, you're making your life more of a pain in the ass.
- [17:31]
B
Yep. The down payment on the house.
- [17:33]
A
Yeah, that's exactly right.
- [17:34]
B
You're not trying to have sex. This is. It's not supposed to be this way.
- [17:38]
A
Exactly.
- [17:38]
B
And do the toilet.
- [17:39]
A
Yep, that's exactly right. 2:00am we're it.
- [17:43]
B
Is she sleeping? Monitor her breathing.
- [17:45]
A
Yeah, that's. That's exactly right. Yeah, man. So, like. Yeah, you just introduced more. Yeah, you just introduced more stress in your life. So I think it is good for the guys who are single to try to get online now because it's really. Dude, it's the worst to bring that into a marriage. I did. And it sucked.
- [18:03]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [18:04]
A
It was terrible.
- [18:05]
B
No, it's. And it's better. And this is the thing again, my. My point is more. So it's like, yeah, it's not like, okay, there's this, you know, body, like looking over you being like, bad, good, bad, good. Because I get the urge to be like, fudge you, man. I don't, I don't. I can just not subscribe to this shit at all. And it's like, for sure you can do that. My argument is long term. You can. Like, I did it when I was younger being like, this stuff's bullshit. I don't give a fucking. Yeah. And then you get older and you're like, it was something to that, I think.
- [18:31]
A
Yeah.
- [18:31]
B
It's actually.
- [18:31]
A
Well, it's just like a. It's almost like a spirit that controls you. Yeah, right. It's like, it's just. This is controlling me. It's taking up so much of like my mental bandwidth. I'm constantly thinking about it when I'm at work, right. I'm thinking about, oh man, I can't wait till I get home. Or it's just this like vibration throughout your day and it really does grip you. And I think, you know, especially like in all these, like, I don't know, kind of like lame, like modern male movements, they're like, I want to be independent, right?
- [19:01]
B
Yeah.
- [19:02]
A
I don't want to. I want to be like, I want to be above all that. Right. And yeah, those same guys, though, are probably also not even realizing how much porn controls their life.
- [19:15]
B
Yeah.
- [19:16]
A
Or the pornographic in general. Right. Is controlling their lives. So just like I said, always constantly thinking about it or even just like anytime you see a good looking chick walk by, you're just, you're good, you're good.
- [19:33]
B
My brother puts it best. He's like, even if you're not looking at porn, you can still be goon.
- [19:36]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [19:37]
B
Or you're on Instagram. You're scrolling, you're scrolling. My, My brother claims if you're scrolling, you're gooning. Yeah. If you're sitting there and you're in the scroll, you're goon. You're good.
- [19:45]
A
A non orgasmic goon.
- [19:46]
B
You're just goon. Yeah. You're completely just like. Yeah. So yeah, you're.
- [19:51]
A
Yeah. You're mindless. Yeah.
- [19:52]
B
And it's like the babes are coming. You know what you're doing? You're in your hamster cage and you're fucking hitting your little switch and you're going to fucking babes. Well, who am I? You know?
- [20:00]
A
That's exactly.
- [20:01]
B
So it's like you're kind of pulling
- [20:02]
A
that lever and there's a lot of Things, dude. Like, I see these stupid YouTube videos where, like, in. In this, like, male kind of. I don't know, space where it's like, porn or, like, lust is like, the f. Like, if you can get over lust, it's like. No, that's the actually, like, easiest thing, I think, to get over as a guy. Like, for me, you know, once I got over porn, I started, and I'm still, like, trying to figure out all, like, the deeper shit that makes me a piece of shit. Like, my. I'm fucking angry all the time. I am angry all the time. I'm yelling all the time. I have a lot of, like, anger and wrath. That's much. That is, for me, that's been way more difficult to try to figure out than lust. Right? So for a lot of the times, dude, these guys. We'll spend our whole fucking lives just trying to figure out this, like, porn issue or this lust issue, this whatever, right? And it's. And we. We spend our whole lives trying to get over that, and we haven't even got. We're not. We're not. We don't have the bandwidth to deal with more, like, guttural problems. Like. Like, for guys, like, a lot, like, the. The anger, the dickishness. Right. You know, whatever.
- [21:18]
B
You. Well, you don't really. You don't really think about this stuff. At least I didn't at all until I had kids. Cause then, like, when you're in an apartment by yourself, if you ever have a girlfriend, like, I'm angry. Who gives a. I yelled, whatever. It's not the end of the world. Once you have kids, you're like, damn, I'm making this. This place, this living environment hell. And it's me. Like, I'm doing this. Yes. And that's why, again, for me personally, I would say the porn thing, the piece of that was like, you know, I'm at odds with my wife. I want sex. I'm like. And then I. You know, you slink off of the porn. Slink off the porn. You never fix the issue. Whereas if you're like, all right, we got to get on the same page that we're. You know, we gotta. We gotta be operating. Part of a marriage is we're obviously having sex with each other. We're communicating. Porn's such a little, like. It's like a little underground shelter. You can kind of hide out. And then you obviously just become a freak under, you know, an underground bunker. Freak. But that was the. At least for me personally. And it's like, you start Ha. And then it's like, you. You ditch the porn safety blanket and you're like, all right, I have to hash this out. And for me, it's like, that then starts. At least starts to spread out into other areas of my life where I would be like, I don't feel like dealing with this. Blah, blah, blah.
- [22:21]
A
Yeah.
- [22:22]
B
So, yeah, I don't know. I think it's good. And I really, again, having kids is like, the big thing for me, where it's like, I am every day. I'm like, all right, let's make my house. What can I do to make my house chill, fun, and just like, a place that feels good to be. And that entails when I'm feeling like. Or about whatever, I have to catch myself and calm myself down and realize, like, this isn't as big as the thing I'm trying to do, which is, like, create a happy, healthy house.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah, that's exactly right.
- [22:51]
B
But it's hard. It's very, very difficult to be like. And this is something I had to tell myself a lot of times where I'm like, you know, I'm. You're responsible for how you feel inside. It's no one else's. It's literally your responsibility. And it's like, what do you have to do to make that stuff feel good inside your body? Like, how do you feel at ease? Yeah, it's like, you have to figure that out.
- [23:11]
A
Yeah, you do. And there's like, well, that's a good nuanced take. And that's the difficult thing that a lot of dudes just, like, it takes them forever to figure out. Like, unless, like, you're super conscious that this is going to be. Yeah. Like a long journey, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're not ever going to come to that realization. I'm even thinking about just, like, how on edge a lot of guys are when they're looking at porn. Like, got your phone, you got your laptop. You're always on the high alert because you're just like, oh, did I exit out of this? My wife probably can't pick up my phone. Did I delete the Instagram history?
- [23:46]
B
The audio? Go to a Bluetooth device?
- [23:48]
A
100%, dude. No, that would be the worst. No, but you're always on high alert. And just think about, like, what. That. That. That high, like, hyper. So you're at your hyper alert and think about what that does. Just as you and your household. How do you conduct yourself? Yeah, if you're always on high alert, dude, you're just gonna be More anxious. Yeah. You're gonna. You're gonna obviously possibly, like, lash out with the kids more or with the wife, and the wife's gonna think that, you know, something's up with him. She's gonna confront you, and then you're just like, no, I'm not. Then you start to lie. Yeah, right. So it just creates this bad. Yeah, it's just like a bad household culture, you know? And so I think, yeah, I mean, obviously, if you're. If you're a married man with kids. Yeah, you. You got to get this shit unlock. You do need to get this shit unlock, even if you're single, because you're gonna. You're gonna bring it into the marriage and you're gonna bring it into your household at some point.
- [24:42]
B
It is also kind of a flex as a young man to be in a relationship being like, I don't even look at that crap.
- [24:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:46]
B
It's kind of nice.
- [24:47]
A
Yeah.
- [24:48]
B
Because it's like. Yeah, there's. I feel like girls have been. I don't know. I'm trying to think of the word, not, like, conditioned, but, like, I feel like it's become a bit strange for, let's say, most girls and, like, just like, you know, modern, normal society to be like, if he wants to watch porn, that's fine. Like, almost like it's a. It's healthy, it's good. But I don't think girls like it. No, they don't. I've never met a single girl, or
- [25:14]
A
if the girl actually your girlfriend might say that, but the moment she becomes your wife, she's like this dude watching that. Yeah. Why are you asking me to do this crazy shit when we're having sex?
- [25:23]
B
That's true.
- [25:23]
A
Yeah. No, I know they don't like it.
- [25:26]
B
Yeah.
- [25:26]
A
At some point, I also would argue that. Also, I don't give a fuck. I don't think any guy probably wants a wife who is legitimate. Like, you might say you do. Yeah. But at some point down the road, I don't think a guy.
- [25:37]
B
Dude, if you like the idea that it 100 times, actually genuinely catch your wife beating would be devastating.
- [25:45]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely.
- [25:46]
B
I would be like, what the fuck are you doing? I'd be so mad.
- [25:50]
A
Absolutely. Dude.
- [25:50]
B
Like, phone in hand.
- [25:52]
A
Phone in hand, bro. Yeah.
- [25:55]
B
You're good. Yeah.
- [25:56]
A
That's gross.
- [25:57]
B
I. I would hate that.
- [25:58]
A
That's gross. Well, the. The female porn thing is. Is interesting. I don't know. I mean, I obviously know more about the guy phenomena, jacking off. But no, dude, the chicks are loving like the erotica now.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah, that's. That's just like mainstream. Yeah. The novels and all that stuff.
- [26:14]
A
The novels, the vampires or whatever they.
- [26:16]
B
Yeah.
- [26:17]
A
Into. There's. There's new bookshop on my street that just opened up.
- [26:23]
B
Girl porn?
- [26:23]
A
Yeah. Erotica.
- [26:24]
B
Oh no.
- [26:25]
A
Like, what the.
- [26:26]
B
Yeah, no, that's. That's gross. They're not really open to talking about it. Whenever I always ask, I ask my wife if she reads. She likes like fantasy stuff, but I feel like now it's like the erotic is in and it's. They're not like, it's not like the. Like. And then he. Me in the. It's like. It's all about the moment two people meet. That's the thing they want. Like the. The moment they go it and they just kiss. That's like their erotica.
- [26:49]
A
They get whisked away.
- [26:50]
B
Yeah. Wished away. And I've learned that I listened to this female professor lady was talking about. She's like, dude, I. I'm a professor. And I, you know, I just started reading these books and she's like, I got so fucking. Like, I would put them literally, like almost like. Like a cartoon like in another book and like hide. She's like, I would read. I would read them and she goes, I would reread that point over and over and over and over where it's going to come together.
- [27:12]
A
Gets them going.
- [27:12]
B
Get some fired up.
- [27:13]
A
It does, dude.
- [27:14]
B
So. And. And again, for me, it's like, you know, because you hear even going to marriage, people go like, dude, it's crazy. The idea of having sex with one person or your whole. It's. It's just like a stupid idea. It doesn't make sense. I. What I found is like, it's actually really easy, especially if you're not watching porn because then you just sit there and if you're not, especially if you're not jerking off, you just. Eventually your body's going to go, yeah, it's time for sex.
- [27:35]
A
Yeah.
- [27:35]
B
And you're not gonna go. My wife. I. I'm. I'm horny.
- [27:40]
A
Yeah. No, it's great. So I've been my wife for a long time.
- [27:45]
B
It doesn't get old.
- [27:46]
A
No.
- [27:46]
B
Honestly, I actually, I always isn't cope. It's not like, oh, I. I would tell you, I'd be like, yeah, it's kind of boring. I would say, guys, I'm sorry. I say to my wife, sorry, boring. I'm not bored. I go like it.
- [27:59]
A
Yes. No, that's true. I. And I think it actually gets Phenomenally better when you stop looking at porn. Like, I 100. Like, I've been dating my. Or I started dating my wife when I was 18.
- [28:08]
B
Yeah.
- [28:08]
A
So I've been, you know, I don't know. I've been obviously having sex with my wife for a long time. 34. And it has. Yeah. Just hasn't gotten old.
- [28:17]
B
No, it's. It's. It's. But for me, I remember dating and being a pornhound and I remember I would like. I would type like, whatever. Like, this is cool and all. I just don't think they're, you know, I guess, doing like, you know, obviously, luckily you marry someone you have like a sexual spark with, you know, sometimes that just isn't there.
- [28:35]
A
Yeah.
- [28:36]
B
But. Yeah, I. I don't know. I do think it's. I think it's the move, you know, all things considered. It's like you're going to come at it. Everyone comes at it from their own angle. But I've. I've gone both sides of the thing. I used to literally watch porn while I ate breakfast when I was in college.
- [28:50]
A
That's how just.
- [28:52]
B
I would just. I would just basically load it up. I'd be like, all right, what am I going to watch? And I would just start. I would eat. I remember just being like, this is so sick. I can watch porn. And it's like. It's literally. You're on donkey island with Pinocchio.
- [29:02]
A
I had a college roommate who Pop tarts and pour.
- [29:07]
B
Yeah.
- [29:08]
A
Little. Yeah, yeah. Make it a day. I had a college roommate who would. Who would every night get his laptop out. He was a fucking fiend. Holy shit. This is actually coming back to me. So he was a fiend. He would open up his laptop, peruse what he wanted to look at in the morning, close his laptop, woke up, have it. But he was fucking. Dude, he was sick. He would have. He had like a fleshlight that he would. Yeah. So he was in it.
- [29:36]
B
He was in it.
- [29:37]
A
He was fucking in it. Dude. Dude, I've. I. But this is actually not. You know, it's funny because, dude, we all have. That's the thing. We all have these stories and it just becomes so normalized that we just think. And it is fun. Like, it is kind. It's funny. Objectively. It's funny. It's funny. And. Yeah, but that's also the other thing. It's like, there has to be a nuance in it with it, because it is funny, but it's also like, grow up.
- [30:01]
B
Like. Yeah.
- [30:02]
A
You know what? I mean, going back to the. Well, going back to the kids, right?
- [30:04]
B
Like.
- [30:05]
A
Yeah, grow up, dude. Like, you can't be just doing this.
- [30:09]
B
It is sad because you are essentially having sex with yourself and it's like jerking off. Whatever. I get it. Like, you know, you're. Look, I always think of soldiers on the battlefield, crank one out, obviously it's gonna happen. But once you get into like, the gear, the Fleshlight, the Oculus, like, now you're having sex with yourself.
- [30:24]
A
Yeah. You are having weird. Well, dude. And then I feel. I feel really bad for the guys who. And I. I. I'm not gonna like, talk about, like, the science behind it, because I just don't really know. But both. So, like, it's. This is more so anecdotal, but I've heard a lot of stories even from like, users in the app. Like, they just make such a relationship with their hand that this is how you do get erectile dysfunction. It's like the only thing that you can. That's gonna get you off is your hand.
- [30:50]
B
Yeah.
- [30:50]
A
And so then you're with a chick. This is super tragic. It's really sad for.
- [30:54]
B
That does suck.
- [30:54]
A
You know, the 20 something year old guys, the 30 something year old guys, you know, they. They do finally get a babe and they can't get it up and.
- [31:03]
B
Yeah.
- [31:04]
A
Then I mean, that's a cycle, right? You can't get it up, you feel like. And you just go back on the porn. Yeah, it's crazy.
- [31:11]
B
That's. That's the one thing that I. And I think that's luckily being lucky enough to be born before Internet porn, because that does suck for guys who are just like, came online. It was just like, boom, here you go.
- [31:22]
A
How old are you?
- [31:23]
B
40.
- [31:24]
A
Okay. Yeah, I'm 34. So there's that, but that. That six years actually is. Yeah, no, that's actually like a huge distinction because my parents got a computer and they had no idea what the was going on.
- [31:35]
B
Here's no idea.
- [31:36]
A
I don't even know they. I didn't even know that. They probably didn't know there was history. Right. So you could just.
- [31:42]
B
They didn't. I guarantee you they did. They had no idea. We. I remember floppy. I was like in the floppy disk era. That was like, very. Initially, I remember my brother to bring him a floppy disc, pop it in naked, chick comes up, and we're like, awesome. But yeah, that's my whole thing. I. I always try not to just like, talk down to people or be like, preachy about it. It's Just like, dude, I'm telling you, like, I've run the experiment. It's like, for me personally, you could be, like, in some weird. You know, you could just be like, no, me and my wife are poly and we watch porn.
- [32:12]
A
It's like, okay, yeah, yeah, whatever.
- [32:14]
B
Good luck. Yeah, it's like, good luck. But it's like, from. I. I would say if you're standard meat and potatoes or whatever. If you're like, I'm a dude trying to have a wife and kids, it's like just. It's like. It's one of those things where it's like, it's got to be kind of kicked out eventually. Otherwise, you have a porn dad. I remember porn dads. I don't know if you ever came across a porn dad, but, like, guys who just had Playboys.
- [32:34]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:35]
B
I. Yeah, it's weird. Looking back on it, I was like, dude, there was Playboys all over that dude's house.
- [32:40]
A
I'm like, yeah, no, it's weird.
- [32:43]
B
I guess it still gives me the heavy. I remember being like, dude, your dad's so cool. He has Playboys. I wish my dad.
- [32:48]
A
Yeah.
- [32:48]
B
Now I'm like, I'm so happy. My dad.
- [32:50]
A
Yeah, no, my dad was not a porn dad. No, he's not a porn dad. But no, I. I know, because you. And that's also the thing. It's like, yeah. You grow up with it thinking it's like a cool, like, novelty. See, I want to be like, my dad just gonna start jacking off. I don't know. It's weird.
- [33:05]
B
It's weird.
- [33:05]
A
It is. It's. It's very weird.
- [33:08]
B
Also, mechanic. I remember going around to, like, mechanics shops when I was younger with my dad. Yeah, Every mechanic shop's bathroom. And then I was literally just the other day, I was like, were dudes jerking off in there?
- [33:19]
A
They might have.
- [33:19]
B
I'm pretty sure they were.
- [33:20]
A
They might have.
- [33:21]
B
I guarantee it. Because it's like, otherwise, what the.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah, well, you're just around, and guys are only so strong, you know? So if you're just around, like, somebody, somebody.
- [33:30]
B
I remember it used to be a collage of just naked ladies in there. And I'd be like. I remember being little, being like, whoa. My dad would be like, close your eyes. Go to the bathroom. Come out of there. I remember just like, we were.
- [33:39]
A
Me and my. My oldest is four, and there's, like, up the street. He's not a mechanic anymore, but he. He has an old garage, and, like, we would walk past it and we said hello one time and he was like, oh, come over into the den. We came over into the den and it was just like. Like the classic, like 1970s, 1980s, like, tits. And I'm like, fuck, dude, close your eye. I pulled my boy away. I was like, don't fucking look at this. I was so scared. I was like, dude, fuck. I just fucked up my kid's life forever.
- [34:12]
B
So now that's young enough. He probably forgot.
- [34:14]
A
I hope, dude. Nah, I hope.
- [34:17]
B
I remember I saw a naked lady the first time cut out of a magazine. Literally. It's a classic. On the woods, just in the woods. Ground of the woods crumpled up and it was just a naked lady.
- [34:27]
A
I was.
- [34:27]
B
I was probably for like 6 years old.
- [34:29]
A
Yeah.
- [34:29]
B
I remember just being like, what's that? Someone's like, it's a naked lady. And I remember being in the woods, was outside of the carong swim club, just being like, what the. And just. I remember just like as a kid, just being like, okay. And just like walking about my way.
- [34:42]
A
Yeah, hopefully that was him. Or hopefully that's my. My boy. I'm hoping that he's not up.
- [34:46]
B
I think he's fine. It's when you get 10. Yeah, like my brother. Same thing. They were just like, check this out. Naked lady on a. On a thing. And I was just like, it was older brother. Older brother?
- [34:57]
A
Yeah, older brother.
- [34:58]
B
There's there same exact story. They have their buddies, they have the vhs. And they're like, check this. As I used to have to guard, I would stand. They make me stand like this down by the door from when my parents came back. And I have to run up and be like, they're here, they're here. Yeah, yeah. So in order to do that, they had to let me. They let me watch a little bit of it. And I was like, this is so.
- [35:14]
A
But that is the. So that's another issue though, too, because it is such a part. And again, it. You say these things and it's not like. It's not bad. Like, I. You kind of like, this sounds weird, but it is like a fond memory. Like, that's funny, right? That memory is funny.
- [35:30]
B
It is funny.
- [35:30]
A
Or when your friends all get together. Which, by the way, women never think this is real, but it's like, yeah, like a guy in. In your class had a DVD or VHS or whatever, and then you all go to his house and you're all like, just jerking off.
- [35:44]
B
Well, because you're also so young, you're like, oh, you do that too? Yes, it's like, yeah, you're drinking buddies.
- [35:49]
A
Yeah, man. Like, what is that? That's gay. And it's like, no, it wasn't gay. Like, we weren't jacking each other off. We were just. We were just jacking off with our thighs touching. Like, that's not gay. That's not gay. Also.
- [36:01]
B
Also, it was really like, you need. You were like. Like, how like, heroin addicts all go to, like, a shooting gallery.
- [36:06]
A
Yeah.
- [36:07]
B
You were just like, yo, we got it. Let's go essentially have heroin. And you're like, let's do heroin again.
- [36:12]
A
So there's. And I look back at that, and I like, laugh. And I do think to some degree, it's. Well, and this is the difficult part. This is my whole deal. It's like, that's funny. I'm not here to, like, fucking moralize you, right?
- [36:26]
B
Yeah.
- [36:26]
A
But I don't know a lot of guys who are able to have a relationship with porn and not get addicted or just have like, a pretty, you know, dependent relationship with it, you know, for sure. It's like, if you could smoke a cig. I just smoked cigarettes with you a couple days ago, and it's like, okay, I'm not gonna smoke a cigarette again. Yeah, right. But I have that relationship with cigarettes. I can do that. But yeah, with porn, if, like, I'm gonna look. If I'm looking at porn once, even to this day, I'm probably on the. I'm. I'm off my rocker.
- [36:59]
B
I'm good.
- [37:00]
A
Yeah, I am gonna look at it every single day, dude.
- [37:03]
B
And then. Then there's the issue of, like, what a poor. It's. You know. And again, me and my brother talk about this a lot, but, like, in. Being in a pornhole is another thing too, where it's like, you're. You're using porn. Whatever. Some guys go so deep into it where it's like, now we're calling hooker ads. Now we're doing this. And then you come out of the whole thing where you're just like, the. Did I do I. I used to read, like, I would read about this all the time. And you get you on, like, Reddit and you're porn addiction, this and that. There's a guy who's like, yeah, I was watching porn the one day I kind of spaz called hookers. I end up having, like, unprotected sex with the. And you're just like, jesus, yeah, that's
- [37:36]
A
like the worst type of stories.
- [37:37]
B
Ye. But there is a pornhole. You can be like, when you're in porn brain and your gooner brain. It's like, you might think you're thinking normally, but you're kind of not. You're goons. You're at a place, you're being like. Like, if you see, like, a chick, you're just instantly being like this. And it's just like. There's a point of it where you're like, dude, like.
- [37:56]
A
Yeah, no, like I said, it goes back to, like, that, like, spirit energy, like, it, like, just grips you. You can't. It's like a fucking succubus almost. You know what I mean? Like, it's like the succubus actually, like, exists, and it's just like, ruling your life and you have that attached to your back. Yeah, man. It makes you. Yeah, you can do wild shit like porn. Just got done. Looking at it for three hours, you feel bad about yourself. It could even be like, yeah, I'm gonna fucking buy this new pair of Nikes that I can't afford. You know what I mean? Like, you just do stupid shit. Yeah. And there's. And even, like. Like on, like, a societal perspective, it's. I don't know what the. I'm not gonna say it because I don't want to look like a fucking idiot, but there's like a percentage of divorces happening because of porn or infidelity. Infidelity, Right. In general. Right. So, like, that's a. That's a percentage of, like, whatever the 52% divorce rate is. It's like, that's just gonna cost you a lot of fucking money, dude. So, like, you were looking at porn. Now you got to pay alimony. Like, now you got to pay child support. Yeah, it's like, fuck that, dude. Like, that's.
- [38:58]
B
Well, and it's like you're getting.
- [39:00]
A
And then that.
- [39:00]
B
That.
- [39:01]
A
Then you up your kid's life. Like, I don't care like, if you.
- [39:03]
B
Like.
- [39:04]
A
And that's, you know, whatever. But, like, you know, you get a divorce. I don't care. Like, if it's even, like, a positive reason, like, why you got divorced. Like, there are some relationships out there, right, that shouldn't necessarily exist. You get a divorce, you're still throwing a nuclear bomb into your family. Like, the kid's gonna be like, the kids going to have some type of. And it's like a spectrum.
- [39:24]
B
They're gonna be fond of it. Yeah. Yeah, I was. Unless you're a sick ticket like me. Ever my parents stay together. I wish. Divorce. When I was younger, I used to wish they got Divorced so bad. Just because it was like. I would always hear about people having two Christmases. Oh, yeah, I was a little sick ticket. I remember like, dude, that sounds so sick. But then it's like, obviously I was on the outside looking in. I'd probably be very sad. Yeah, we also had. We had. I was one of six. So my parents would laugh and be like, dude, we literally can't.
- [39:50]
A
You can't.
- [39:50]
B
Like, we can't. We could. We could, but it'd be so. Yeah, he's like, I remember my dad is always laughing. Being like, it's just.
- [39:57]
A
It's.
- [39:57]
B
It's just not. I don't even know how to even go about that. Yeah, but. And it's. Well, it's one of those things. So I get it where you go, well, if I look at porn when I get divorced, it's like, no, not necessarily. But you're probably more likely. I really would imagine you're likely to
- [40:08]
A
do more stupid or you're likely to be more of a dictator. Like, all your bad qualities are going to come out because of porn. Like, even, like going back to the whole, like, surveillance thing or you're hyper vigilant or whatever. All of your worst qualities are going to be highlighted because you're looking at.
- [40:23]
B
That's a cool way to put it. It's like, it's the kind of a node in this, like, network of thinking and being. That's probably not the best.
- [40:30]
A
Yep, Yep, exactly. Then. So, yeah, you're. I don't know. There's just a lot of ill effects. And what's cool is that I do think more than ever now people are at least, like, more privy to this. Even like five years ago, you couldn't really talk about, you know, people like, you weren't necessarily talking about porn addiction, you know, or porn.
- [40:50]
B
Be surprised. I've been droning on about it for, like, years. But. But I know what you mean. It was very. I remember the NoFap thing coming out being like, yeah, all right, guys, please, please, please, I beg of you. I'll be doing standup August 7th and August 8th. San Jose, California. Come on, guys. Ticket sales. Oh, boy. Now every. Everywhere else is looking decent. But San Jose, California, I get it. It's not great. It's summertime. But if you want to come, come August 13th and 14th. Spokane, Washington. Then I'll be in Portland, Maine. Boston, Massachusetts. Royal Oak, Michigan. Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Charlotte, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Chattanooga, Chattanooga, Fort Lauderdale, Tampa, Orlando, and a bunch of other places guys, go to Matt McCusker.com to get tickets. I'll be touring all through December. The. So in terms of the app, there's the. There's like the recognizing that.
- [41:46]
A
Yeah. They first have to recognize the pain shit.
- [41:48]
B
And the fact like, horniness. Horniness is a real thing. There is just horniness. Right. But then there's a pain component and kind of tangle. Untangle.
- [41:54]
A
You got to untangle that. You got to realize, like I said, going back that you've fucking. It's like you. It's like almost like if you only worked out your right bicep your whole life, it's going to be fudgeing huge. And the rest of your body is going to.
- [42:05]
B
It's actually a pretty appropriate fucking look.
- [42:07]
A
Like your forearm is just fucking.
- [42:10]
B
So. And what are the other two kind of points of it? Yeah, there's that and there's.
- [42:14]
A
There's a community feature.
- [42:16]
B
Got you.
- [42:16]
A
Right. So, like, there is just like how you have a band of brothers when you're a kid jacking off with each other. Right. You have to. That. That is true. You do have to get into community with one another. And there is like, there it is shown that some accountability is. Is very positive in this. Right. So the fact that you can go to someone for like, hey, my wife just blew up on me, or I'm struggling today. Right. Those are like pretty easy examples. Just the fact that you realize that your situation is actually not that unique. That's another thing, guys. Like, we think we just get into this headspace. We get into this tunnel vision. It's like I'm the only one dealing with this. It's like, my wife's only reacting like this or whatever. And then you open it up and it's like, no, everyone's life is.
- [42:59]
B
Yeah.
- [42:59]
A
Very similar to what your experience is. So there's a community feature to it. And then there's a. There's another feature is. Which is good for, you know, for some people. There is like a psycho educational piece. Right. You do need to have some understanding of how this is actually affecting your brain and how.
- [43:17]
B
Yeah. What is. Do you know that stuff as well?
- [43:20]
A
Yeah, like, what do you want to know?
- [43:21]
B
How does it affect your brain? What does it do in the. In, like the squishy stuff in there?
- [43:26]
A
Yeah. So. Well, there's a lot. Right. I mean, first of all, it does, you know, everyone is always going to say, like, it overrides your, you know, your dopamine, you know, receptors. Right. So it does, like, flood it. So you are more. Again, what's hard because it's very nuanced. You don't realize. It's. To some degree, you don't realize it, but it is like, you know, the greens aren't as green or something like that. You know what I mean? So, like, you're going throughout these experiences in your life, and because you're flooding yourself with, like, this. With these dope, with this dopamine all the time. Yeah. You are a little more sluggish towards life. Yeah, right.
- [43:59]
B
That's. That's the way I've heard it. It's like. It's a. Someone was saying it's like a neurologically expensive event. Every time you have. Look at porn jerk off.
- [44:08]
A
Yeah.
- [44:09]
B
Your brain, you know, you only have. It's like shooting out little, you know, sparks and particles of shit.
- [44:14]
A
Yeah.
- [44:14]
B
It's like. It's a lot. It's like every time, like, naked lady orgasms, like, your brain's going, this is it. And it just fires so much to your point where you start. Starts kind of dull. Like, the greens aren't as green. You're just kind of. You just don't have the juice pretty much.
- [44:28]
A
And then, like, you know, you start making relationships with the porn, you start making relationships with the hand. You start. You know what I mean? Like, your. Your brain will pick up on this. So again, like, going back to that whole ed point, that's real. Like, if you're really just only able to get off to your hand, it's because you created a relationship with your hand and your body recognizes that. Although this isn't a vagina, like, I can't get hard to this. Yes. It's gonna always be a tighter grip. So there's that, you know, and kills your. It honestly does crush even things like productivity.
- [45:01]
B
Yeah.
- [45:03]
A
So your output on that. And I'm very grateful because again, people are more apt to talk about this now. There's tons of research going on getting into the weeds of how this is actually, like, affecting men's brains. Right. So I think this, like. And I think for a certain guy, that's always good. But that can't be the only piece. Right? Like, you're not gonna deal with this just through psycho education. Right. You have to. You have to have the cocktail of the metacognitive, the brotherhood, accountability space, and the psycho education. I think that's like, the greatest route to overcome this.
- [45:42]
B
I agree. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's more so part of, like, consciously authoring your life in a way where you're like, all right, I'm Just gonna really start every single thing I do. Asking myself, is this a good thing? You know, should I be doing this? What would it look like if I didn't? And just experiment. That's what the one thing I've always been lucky with. I, I am a big, big self experimenter. I love just like doing weird experiments. And like, like last last month I. I did a thing where I just try to work out every day for 30 days. I did 32 days just like really hard.
- [46:11]
A
No breaks.
- [46:11]
B
No breaks. Just to see like, do I really need rest time. Like you hear about all the time. Like, what if I didn't? You do. I got very tired. But the, but you kind of like, you know, I don't know. I think especially as you get older because people fall into this rut of just like, I guess I go to work every day and it's like, you can always be like giving yourself challenges, self experiments and doing, you know, I, I think that's like one of the best possible things you can do. And it's like. And again, I, for me, the, I was one of the most staunchly like, dude, if people don't tell you that's bad, like there. That's just some arcane old, like you're dumb for listening to that. And I was like, porn rules. Do whatever you want. It's like the classic tale. Then you get older and you're like, damn it, now you know. So you're kind of like, I've made my bed. And the wow, it would be. Imagine being way more conscious about this stuff. When I was in my early 20s, I could have made my life infinitely easier kind of thing.
- [47:07]
A
Well, no, exactly, like I think that's a good principle. Like you want your life to be like you like. Yeah, like easier, right? Yeah, pleasant.
- [47:15]
B
Pleasant would be nice.
- [47:16]
A
Pleasant would be nice. I would like not to not get into a fucking argument with my wife.
- [47:22]
B
And it's really like, you know, you really. There's something to that. If you're gooned when you're younger and you're select, you're like out looking for, you know, a wife, girlfriend, whatever, you're. You're so. You don't even realize. And maybe this is like without the gooner with it. I don't know to be fair. But it's like if you're just like used to being like naked chick, tits, blah, blah, blah, ass, awesome. But then you learn like, oh, I have to like relate to this person as a human being.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [47:49]
B
And that's like maybe that's just the fate of all men, no matter what. But it's like, that's. That's like a tough one, man, because it's like you just. You're so gooned out. You're like, I'm gonna this.
- [47:58]
A
Yeah, you're just gonna. Yeah.
- [47:59]
B
And you have to build a life with it. You're like, I didn't think about that part. So.
- [48:02]
A
Yeah, that's a huge part also.
- [48:03]
B
Even going to the biggest.
- [48:04]
A
Get going to that point, though, like, yeah, you spend your whole life. I've even seen this where it's like, you know, you think you develop how much of our taste for women has actually been influenced by porn? Right? So it's like, I just like you. You know, it's big tit, brunette chick. It's like. Well, maybe it's. Maybe that's actually not necessarily. Well, I don't know. Who wouldn't like a.
- [48:26]
B
But yeah, no, it's.
- [48:29]
A
You know what I mean?
- [48:30]
B
There's something to be said for that.
- [48:31]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, well, how much of your taste has actually been affected by pornography?
- [48:35]
B
You just can't give any. Any specifics. Like.
- [48:37]
A
Yeah, well, it's like, yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome.
- [48:39]
B
That's really like a short Asian lady. It's very slammy. Like, like. Yeah, okay, maybe I do it too. Yeah, but I. I get your point. It's like, it does it. And it also, like, you know, again, just like you. Whether you can say, I know porn's all fake, but if you're just watching that over and over and over and over again, you start to be like, this is how it should look.
- [48:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. This is exactly how it should look.
- [49:02]
B
You. The jackhammer is not. You know, you don't need to just bust out the jackhammer on a Wednesday night.
- [49:07]
A
Yeah.
- [49:07]
B
8:00pm it's like, that's not a real thing. It's not really like that.
- [49:13]
A
No. Well, yeah, and then it isolates you because then you come to, you know, what's the. The Goon Caves.
- [49:18]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [49:19]
A
Have you ever heard about this? About it or.
- [49:22]
B
Yeah, there was an article I saw and I only like half Harpers. Yes.
- [49:26]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [49:27]
B
My brother sent me. I think you sent me that as well, did you?
- [49:29]
A
I sent you.
- [49:30]
B
Three people send me that.
- [49:31]
A
I think I sent you that. I sent you monks in the casino.
- [49:33]
B
I got to read that. No, I didn't read that yet.
- [49:35]
A
That's good.
- [49:36]
B
Is it good?
- [49:36]
A
It's all about, like, the vice Economy and how. You know, it's. It's the porn plus the gambling, which is. Man, dude, the gambling is. You gamble. You sports gamble?
- [49:46]
B
Me, a big gambler.
- [49:47]
A
I am the only. You sports gamble? No, I've never done. I'm not allowed to anymore. Your wife? Your girlfriend?
- [49:54]
B
My wife?
- [49:55]
A
Hell, yeah.
- [49:55]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:56]
A
She put a stop to it.
- [49:57]
B
Yeah.
- [49:58]
A
Yeah. Good.
- [49:59]
B
I was never.
- [50:00]
A
That sounded bad. You probably had a. You probably had a problem. I don't want to talk. Yeah, never mind.
- [50:04]
B
We'll. We won't the next time, but. Yeah, I've never been a big gambler, man. I never. I get it. I've done it a couple times. This is fun. But I get so sick when I lose money, especially.
- [50:15]
A
I've never done it. I've never. I've never. And I'm not trying to. I just never have been interested in it.
- [50:20]
B
I've. I've. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't do it for me. And I also don't follow sports enough to, like, even pretend I have, like, a winning. You know, a lot of guys watch enough or, like, I'm kind of keyed in. I think that's where it gets guys who are like, no, I'm seeing something no one sees.
- [50:32]
A
And that's like the.
- [50:34]
B
Like. I'm not seeing anything. I'm literally. It's roulette for me. I would be being like, yeah, those guys.
- [50:40]
A
Yeah. And that's this article, and I haven't read it since. I think it came out in November. Monks in the Casino. I forget who wrote it. I think it was just, like, a substack publication. But, yeah, that's his whole thing. It's like, we. There's these. We're living a monastic life in the sense where all these guys are, like, isolated and alone, and we're in this, like, cell, and the only, you know, type of interaction we get is with not real people. Right. So it's like you're not actually, like, interacting with the people when you get, like. You're not actually, like, interacting with, you know, Bryce Harper or anything like that. Like, you're just betting on him, and you're not interacting with the chick that you're jacking off to.
- [51:19]
B
Yeah.
- [51:19]
A
So you're just living a very cloistered life, even.
- [51:21]
B
Only fans. I've learned you're not even talking to her. It's like four Romanians just around the clock, just typing back.
- [51:27]
A
Romanians.
- [51:28]
B
Pretty much. Pretty much. It's just like, for. No, really, it is like, Eastern European guys, and they're they're around the clock.
- [51:34]
A
Yeah.
- [51:34]
B
And the lady recorded this like four years ago and now she's just chilling. She was like when you. I, I saw this in an interview with someone. They were saying if you do only fans now. So this person really did. Whoever the model is really. If they have like they all usually they have managers. If it's a bigger like porn star lady, she has management, all this stuff.
- [51:55]
A
Yeah.
- [51:55]
B
So they take you in, they're like, dude, you're gonna do a new piece of content every day for like a year or two. Once you have let's say like 100 something videos. When a new per. You just stop. You're like, I'm done. I'm not record. You can record if you want, but you can also stop. And then that person gets drip fed your old content from years ago from, you know, you quote unquote. But it's just a team of typers being like, oh hey. And like, you know, it kind of gets like fed out and dripped out. And then it's just like you're, you're just like watching an old curated collection while this lady does whatever the they do. But like it's not, you're not even with only fans. At least you get to talk to the person. Like you're not even talking to the person.
- [52:27]
A
That's crazy.
- [52:28]
B
Yeah. Sucks.
- [52:29]
A
That is wild. I mean in there again you take like a 30, you know, thousand foot view on it. Like that is pathetic. Right?
- [52:36]
B
It's sad.
- [52:37]
A
Like it's sad.
- [52:37]
B
Sad again. Could have got me, honestly. Yeah, well, no, my wife didn't have all my credit cards. I would have for sure signed up for one of those. But it's like she's got. I literally can't. I don't do any of the financial so I don't like.
- [52:50]
A
Same here.
- [52:50]
B
I hate, I also hate doing it. So it's like, like, which is sweet. I don't have to do that. But it's.
- [52:54]
A
I don't even. I never know how much money we have.
- [52:56]
B
I don't know either. I genuinely, I ask her like every, like twice a year. I'll be like, how we doing? How is everything?
- [53:02]
A
Yeah, yeah. Are we good? Like we afford the house?
- [53:05]
B
Well, I read a long time ago that samurais held it down like that. That a samurai would be.
- [53:09]
A
The samurai would take care. Oh no, no.
- [53:11]
B
It would be like I'm a samurai. All this other stuff is dealt with. I'm not even looking or thinking about this, which I try to do. I'm like, I'M I'm not. I'm. If I can help it. I'm not even going to. Just. Just let me know if gets up. Basically.
- [53:22]
A
Yeah. No, that's how we roll.
- [53:24]
B
I stuck to that, but apparently it's not the case. I talked. A lot of guys are like, what? They're like, no, I do every. I do all of our stuff like that. And it's like, what the.
- [53:31]
A
No, I don't. I don't. With the finances.
- [53:34]
B
I don't touch him.
- [53:35]
A
That's a very. That's a. Yeah. Is that like old world? Like classical. Yeah, Ancient Greeks. The word economy comes from household man.
- [53:47]
B
World economy comes from household management.
- [53:49]
A
We were just talking about this economy.
- [53:53]
B
It is the economy. Yeah, good point. I'm gonna. Yeah, fair point.
- [53:57]
A
We're just. Yeah, we're just living that ancient Greek life.
- [53:59]
B
I've said it before. Money's for girls. Money is literally for girls. Yeah, I think so. Money is for real. We invented money for girls. Right here. Here's.
- [54:09]
A
Go do your thing.
- [54:09]
B
Shut up. Here's a.
- [54:10]
A
Absolutely.
- [54:11]
B
Here's a piece of paper we made up. Quiet.
- [54:13]
A
Oh, that's another thing. I don't even know how these guys, I mean, you have to be taking out, like, private credit car are a really ballsy guy if you're, you know, with a chick and you're prepaid credit card.
- [54:22]
B
Thought about it, but it's like. It's like as soon as you think about one administrative task, you're like, yeah,
- [54:27]
A
I don't want to do no, dude. Yeah. You know, you're a ballsy guy if you're putting your only fan subscriptions on your regular, like, you know, wild debit card.
- [54:34]
B
It's wild. Dudes get busted. I mean, again, you're in a pornhole.
- [54:37]
A
Well, then again, yeah, you start thinking dumb. You think you can get away. It's not even like, I can. It's not even like that. It's not even that, like, articulate. It's like, I can get away with this. It's just like, no, I'm gonna do it.
- [54:48]
B
Yeah, I'm doing this.
- [54:49]
A
You're always gonna get caught. I also think, like, this is. This is completely just my own thought. I do think that the fruit of a good marriage is that or a good relationship. Is that like, yeah, the shit's gonna come out eventually. Like, you can only suppress it for so long. It's gonna come out.
- [55:05]
B
Yeah.
- [55:06]
A
And maybe it's that or maybe it's just that guys are really fucking dumb and you're in A always get busted.
- [55:12]
B
Women have detective brains, first of all. They're all, they're on the beat, they're tied into.
- [55:15]
A
They're intuitive.
- [55:16]
B
Yeah. To a level you can't even comprehend in terms of like reading like micro expressions and all this stuff. I. I learned that a long time. It's like a long time ago. It's like 100. Honesty is the only path. Otherwise you're just going to get busted. It's a matter of when. Yeah, you're going to get busted.
- [55:30]
A
And I. And even going back to your point, like I. What you were saying, like, you just like try.
- [55:35]
B
Yeah. And see if you can self experiment. Yeah.
- [55:37]
A
Yeah. I mean, that's another thing. Like, I don't think that guys have to be like in the depths of despair to just try this out. It's like, just fucking try it out. See if you can do it. And there's tools out there. Why don't you, you know, leverage that? Like, if there's a tool out there that could. And if you really think that you don't have an issue with it, why don't you just fucking try it out?
- [55:58]
B
Yeah.
- [55:59]
A
See if you can do it. And if you can't, okay, well then I'm a fucking idiot and the guys I work with are fucking idiots and we're all fucking stupid. Just prove it. Like. Yeah, it's like, to prove us wrong. Like, you know, like.
- [56:08]
B
Yeah, that's. And I also, I find it to be a pretty useful bargaining chip in terms of like just sex and marriage. I remember the day I was just like, bro, I don't even look at that. To my wife. A, it felt good. And B, yeah, I'll be like, well, just so you know, it's like, you're all I got, babe. They love that too.
- [56:26]
A
I know.
- [56:27]
B
There's nothing, there's literally nothing else. So it's like, you know, just, you let me know. We don't do it right now, but
- [56:32]
A
you want to give them like security and, and you do.
- [56:35]
B
It's the ultimate. Like, just keep me in mind. That's all I'm asking. Just, just think about it.
- [56:39]
A
Absolutely. Dude.
- [56:40]
B
Track days with me, that's all.
- [56:42]
A
Are you, Are you a track. Were you a guy to like do streaks? I never, I never like a streak. Like, I haven't looked at porn in like 85 days.
- [56:50]
B
No, I stopped doing that.
- [56:51]
A
I'm not, I was never a streaker. There's actually.
- [56:54]
B
I used to for sure, but then I'm just still thinking about porn all the time, so.
- [56:56]
A
Yeah.
- [56:57]
B
I just go, like, I just don't do it anymore.
- [56:58]
A
Yeah.
- [56:59]
B
And I'm not forbid I fall. I'll get right back.
- [57:01]
A
I don't think that that's like, necessary. Like a. A bad way of approaching it. I've actually seen guys in the app who. And we. We do like, street. Like, they're. They're like street counts, so. Because I think in some way, like, it can be good to see your progress. Like.
- [57:14]
B
Yeah.
- [57:15]
A
It's kind of cool. Like you're looking in the mirror, like, after you work out. Right.
- [57:17]
B
Like. Yeah.
- [57:18]
A
You know, that's kind of cool. Yeah. But for me, it was. I think that's probably how dependent I was on it. It was like the streak made me think.
- [57:27]
B
Yeah.
- [57:28]
A
Of the porn and then that.
- [57:31]
B
Yep. I remember I had this one app, I think it was called Brain Buddy, where I would.
- [57:33]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [57:34]
B
And my little tree would grow every day. I remember the day my tree fell down, but I was like, it just. It's like deflating.
- [57:40]
A
Whereas for me, your tree grows and then you think of the phallic nature of the growth.
- [57:45]
B
Like, well, if that's hard, but I lost my tree. And I was like, God damn it. Yeah.
- [57:49]
A
And.
- [57:49]
B
But for me. And I think this is true with like, just sobriety, like drugs in general. The guys who are like white knuckling it. Like, dude, I've been so for six months. I think about it every day. You could do that, I guess. Or it's like you have to. Well, you're still deeper level of like. No, it's actually. It doesn't even register as a, worth it or B, like, even pleasant in a way.
- [58:10]
A
Yeah.
- [58:10]
B
It's like. And people do that with drugs all the time. They find just a, like a bigger thing that they're like, yeah, like, if that leads to me losing this, this becomes more an attract drugs, becomes more unattractive.
- [58:21]
A
Yeah.
- [58:22]
B
No, it's the point where it's like. It's almost not like repulsive like, I'm disgusted, but you're just like, nah, I'm genuinely good on that. Rather than being like, oh, I will do so bad. Ye wish I could, but I can't. It's like a very different thing.
- [58:32]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I. I've never got into that either. But like I said, you know, I guess it could work whatever the you
- [58:40]
B
got to do if you get pumped on the streak. But it's. That's my thing. It's like, I.
- [58:44]
A
Well, that's why, like the surveillance, I think.
- [58:46]
B
Covenant eyes.
- [58:47]
A
Yeah. Like, I think here's the deal. At first, do whatever the you can to. If you really don't want to look at it, just do whatever you can at first. Right? But, yeah, no, I think they're like the sober addict type of thing. Like, I do think there's, you know, if it's just like a. If you're just, like, living out of, like, fear, I don't think that's, like, a healthy way to ever get over something.
- [59:09]
B
That's true. But I. And again, it's. For me, it's like, you know, do you, man, run your own experiment? I ran the experiment. I was like, yes, this is genuinely not the move. And it took me, like, years, dude, to, like. And I remember just hitting a point where I was like, like, yeah, I think I'm good off this, man. Like, I really. And, you know, since then, I've just been like, yeah. I just don't. There's times where I'm like, damn, that would be sick. But I'm like, I know where that goes.
- [59:33]
A
Was it before you were married or after?
- [59:35]
B
After.
- [59:35]
A
Okay.
- [59:36]
B
Well, after. And I remember. I remember, like, trying, trying and then eventually just being like, yeah, I just don't need. I don't need to do it. You know, it's like, I could, obviously, but it's just. It's just not. It's just something I want to just kind of, like, move ahead, move without, you know, did she.
- [59:50]
A
Was it because she caught you or was it.
- [59:51]
B
No, she caught me, like, five times. I was shameless. That, like, got me. Yeah, I really did. I really was. That's the thing. I didn't have, like, that much. I remember being like, damn, this sucks. I gotta call this embarrassing. Yeah. But, no, I. Not even that. But it was just. And she never even really pressured me. She would have kind of be like, yeah, it's not like I'm not, like, stoked about it. And I wouldn't lie. That's a big thing. She'd be like, did you watch porn? I'm like, yeah.
- [60:11]
A
Yeah.
- [60:12]
B
So I. I always, like, lying to me felt just like. Like, no.
- [60:15]
A
Yeah.
- [60:16]
B
Yeah. I don't know. I just got to the point where. I'm not gonna lie. But the. Yeah, I just got to the point where I was like. I just. Just for myself. I'm like, I just don't wanna.
- [60:23]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [60:24]
B
It's just weird. It just feels weird. It's just like. It just comes to the point where it's like. I just know if I never kicked it, being like, 70. Putting the phone down. I would have. I've eventually have jumped off a bridge.
- [60:38]
A
Yeah, no, there is a lot of guys.
- [60:40]
B
Dude who just like 70 years old.
- [60:41]
A
Like guys in the app are 70 years old. It's crazy. No, no, it's crazy. It's crazy because.
- [60:47]
B
Sad.
- [60:47]
A
Yeah.
- [60:48]
B
Fear. If, like, if death is like a. Is like I'm thinking about death and this simultaneously. One of them's. I can't have both.
- [60:55]
A
It's going to be weird with the advent of the AI porn now because I wonder like, if guys are going to be like, well, it's not a fucking woman actually.
- [61:04]
B
I'll creep me. People kind of creep me out. Like when I see them, I'm always kind of like. It gives me like a weird.
- [61:09]
A
It's going to get to the point though. There's. I think it's going to be indistinguishable.
- [61:13]
B
Yeah. And again, even, even that it's like, what is the point of this? What is it, sir? And if it's just to be like, I'm just trying to come. It's like, okay, you. You can do this. You can't. Like, you know, but I don't know, it's. It's tough. It is. It's tough because again, for myself, it's like. And it's like, it's kind of almost a curse. I have a high libido. So I'm like, I. I would like to always tell my wife, like, I need to go. And like, I genuinely get to the point where I'll. I, like, will have trouble sleeping, like, for like. And it's purely physiological, like, yeah, I can't fucking sleep. And I know exactly what it is. So I get that. And there's like, you know, but for me, it's like, you know, and that's just however you want to play it, you know, it's like, I don't know, you just gotta. You just gotta figure out. It's not like if you do this, your life will be ruined, but it's like if you weigh heavy on one side versus weighing heavy on another, it's like, personally, I feel like just abstaining from it in general.
- [62:02]
A
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of guys who are looking at porn who have on this, like, you know, you look at that guy's life, you're like, that guy lives a great life.
- [62:10]
B
He's showing.
- [62:11]
A
He's a. And I'm sure he's. Here's the thing, he is a good husband and he is a good father.
- [62:17]
B
I would be a fool to condemn a porn user. Yeah, like, you're. That's like, trust me.
- [62:21]
A
Yeah, no, but there's. Again, but there's. Like, we talked about, like, there are, like, levels to this. Like, you could level up. You could. Like, you'll probably be a better husband and a better father if you.
- [62:31]
B
I agree. I think that's a fair way.
- [62:33]
A
You can kick it.
- [62:33]
B
Well, dude, let's. Let's munch. Let's get some lunch.
- [62:36]
A
Let's do it.
- [62:36]
B
All right. Adios, everybody.
- [62:38]
A
Cool.
- [62:39]
B
Anything else you want to.
- [62:40]
A
Oh, yeah. JoinRelay app. Can I plug it?
- [62:42]
B
Yeah, please.
- [62:43]
A
Do it. Do it. Like I said to the guys who actually are, you know, in it, who need, you know, some help, or the guys who are just like, this isn't real. I don't know. Just try it out. Yeah. I'm also gonna start this beehive newsletter where I'm not gonna actually talk about porn, but I'm going to talk about other ways to improve your life.
- [63:09]
B
Nice. I thought you're talking about the Beyonce fan base.
- [63:13]
A
Oh, is that what I did? I do not. Is that real? Yeah, that's funny. That true.
- [63:17]
B
Yeah.
- [63:17]
A
The Beehive.
- [63:18]
B
The Beehive is the Beyonce.
- [63:19]
A
Well, yeah. So I'm starting a beehive newsletter about Beyonce and all of her happenings and what she's doing. No. Yeah. I'm going to probably call it Take it or Leave It.
- [63:32]
B
There you go.
- [63:32]
A
Yeah. Take it or Leave It. So, yeah, even. And I don't know fucking shit, but I do know, like, what I fucked up at, so there you go. Yeah, so. Yeah, but. Join Relay app. I think the guys. What is it? Mssp. That's a little promo code. You can use that I. Oh, nice.
- [63:53]
B
Yeah.
- [63:54]
A
Yeah. So put that. We'll give you a free trial. If you don't like it, you don't think it does anything, we'll give you your money back. So beautiful. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me.
- [64:02]
B
Of course.
- [64:02]
A
Cool. Thank you.
- [64:03]
B
Watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's Secret podcast on Spotify. Do.