Ep 630 - Buildings (feat. Michael P. Murphy)

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Matt and Shane’s Secret Podcast
Episode: 630 – Buildings (feat. Michael P. Murphy)
Date: August 10, 2026

This episode features architect and author Michael P. Murphy, who joins Matt and Shane to discuss his new book, Our World in Ten Buildings. The hosts dive deep into how architecture shapes human experience, with a particular focus on hospitals, the social responsibility of design, and Murphy’s career journey. The episode is filled with hilarious banter, poignant personal stories, and sharp insights into why our built environment matters—delivered in Matt and Shane’s signature irreverent tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Murphy’s "Architectural Origin Story"

• Timestamps: [00:25]–[04:36]

• Summary:

  • Murphy explains his initial shock at the bleakness of hospital design during his father’s illness. As a young architecture student, he questioned why these environments, meant for healing, felt so inhospitable.
  • The roots of hospitals are traced back to religious spaces, with the evolution into the modern, institutional—and often cold—environment we know today. Murphy highlights how design was prioritized differently before the 19th century.

• Notable Quote:

  • “I was a young architecture student. I’m looking around, I’m like, where is the architect? Where are the design elements in this place? This place is terrible.” – Michael Murphy [01:18]

2. The Influence of History and Key Figures on Design

• Timestamps: [03:39]–[07:20]

• Summary:

  • The hosts and Murphy discuss Florence Nightingale’s impact on hospital design—her emphasis on air, light, and sanitation revolutionized medical spaces.
  • Shane relates the story of Ignaz Semmelweis and germ theory, marveling at how radical new ideas were often rejected by the medical establishment.

• Notable Quote:

  • “Florence Nightingale…she realized that the hospital had this big impact on saving their life. And so she developed rules for how to design hospitals.” – Michael Murphy [06:00]

3. Murphy’s Path: From English Lit to Rwanda Hospital Design

• Timestamps: [08:20]–[14:15]

• Summary:

  • Murphy’s meandering path—first into English literature and then journalism—was upended by his father’s cancer diagnosis, which called him home. Their mutual work on the family house shifted Murphy’s perspective, making him realize the healing power of engaging with a space.
  • The experience solidified his commitment to architecture, especially regarding health and healing spaces.

• Memorable Moment:

  • Restoring the house with his father during remission became a deeply moving experience and the catalyst for Murphy's architectural ambitions.

• Notable Quote:

  • “Working on the house with you saved my life. It healed me.” – Michael Murphy, quoting his father [13:52]

4. Hospital Design and the Importance of User Experience

• Timestamps: [18:02]–[22:01]

• Summary:

  • The group examines why hospital design is so disconnected from patient comfort and well-being, contrasting it with hospitality venues designed around user experience.
  • Murphy insists that everyone is a “designer” of their own home, contributing to the meaning and comfort of spaces through everyday choices.

• Notable Quote:

  • “You actually are designers of your home…there’s a real beauty to that, in the spaces that we’re given.” – Michael Murphy [18:25]

5. Rwanda and the Nuts and Bolts of "Healthy" Buildings

• Timestamps: [22:01]–[31:27]

• Summary:

  • Murphy recounts working with Dr. Paul Farmer and Partners in Health to design a hospital in Rwanda after the genocide. Tight budgets meant he had to blend practical, low-tech solutions (like window placement and high ceilings) with local craft.
  • He describes introducing giant "Big Ass Fans" and UV lights to foster airflow and reduce infections in the absence of high-end mechanical systems.
  • The idea is that buildings must breathe—a theme that Murphy emphasizes repeatedly.

• Memorable Moment:

  • Construction workers in Rwanda wore “Big Ass Fans” t-shirts, completely unaware of the American double entendre, cracking everyone up. [29:53]

• Notable Quotes:

  • “So we said, okay…could we actually reduce infection rates by just introducing airflow? So I got really into airflow.” – Michael Murphy [25:58]
  • “Buildings have to breathe. They allow us to breathe.” – Michael Murphy [30:47]

6. The Social (and Economic) Inequality of Space

• Timestamps: [31:28]–[33:01]
• Summary:
  • The hosts and Murphy dig into how architecture historically amplified social hierarchies—cathedrals inspire awe; everyday buildings do not.
  • Murphy advocates for bringing a sense of dignity, meaning, and even awe into more spaces, not just those built for the elite.

7. Ugly Architecture: The Guild House & Postmodernism

• Timestamps: [34:05]–[38:31]

• Summary:

  • The hosts and Murphy riff on the intentionally mundane—or “ugly”—architecture of the Guild House in Philadelphia and the theories of Robert Venturi & Denise Scott Brown, whose work embraced the “ordinary” (sometimes to a fault).
  • Shane questions whether ordinary people actually benefit from this kind of ironic, “low” design.

• Notable Quote:

  • “It’s very patronizing…It’s very shitty. It’s very mean to be like, these guys, give them something shitty. Open a big satellite dish.” – Shane Gillis [36:44]

8. On Craft, Builders, and the Architect/Contractor Divide

• Timestamps: [40:10]–[45:26]

• Summary:

  • The long-standing adversarial relationship between architects and contractors gets a comedic send-up, but Murphy stresses the value of hands-on collaboration and the artistry in skilled trades such as stone masonry.

• Memorable Quote:

  • “If you can tell a story about the building…often that can be through how it’s made, you know, so the craft of making the building.” – Michael Murphy [42:09]

9. The Power (and Challenge) of Everyday Spaces

• Timestamps: [48:30]–[51:16]

• Summary:

  • Inspired by the reactions to his TED Talk, Murphy doubled down on exploring how ordinary buildings—homes, schools, even prisons—deeply affect how people live and feel.
  • The book’s thesis: the stories people have about their daily spaces reflect the real social value of architecture.

• Notable Quote:

  • “This book is like, why do hospitals matter? Why do houses matter? Why do prisons matter?...how do we build a language that we understand and evaluate the spaces that we’re foisted into?” – Michael Murphy [50:30]

10. Office Design: From Cubicles to Open Plans

• Timestamps: [51:28]–[53:34]
• Summary:
  • The hosts and Murphy talk about the history of the cubicle, designed by Robert Probst of Herman Miller, and how it morphed from an adaptable workspace to a symbol of corporate drudgery.
  • They also discuss the downsides of open office plans and remote work post-COVID.

11. The Ellen DeGeneres/Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund Campus

• Timestamps: [57:54]–[60:01]
• Summary:
  • Murphy describes his involvement in designing the “Ellen DeGeneres Campus of the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund” in Rwanda—a conservation center and research campus for studying gorillas, funded in part by Ellen DeGeneres.
  • The design connects architecture with environmental stewardship.

12. Wild Listener Question Segment (Premium Subscriber Mailbag)

• Timestamps: [63:06]–[67:29]
• Summary:
  • A listener’s dramatic story about relationship conflict (and lesbian domestic violence statistics!) gets a deadpan but empathetic response, blending absurdity and sincerity—a classic Matt and Shane moment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the state of hospital design:
  “This is the most abysmal experience. And yet it's this great famous cancer institution in New York City… But the experience was pretty bleak, you know.” – Michael Murphy [01:53]

• On how we design our own spaces:
  “You actually are designers of your home…there's a real beauty to that, in the spaces that we're given.” – Michael Murphy [18:25]

• On the need for airflow in hospitals:
  “Buildings have to breathe. They allow us to breathe.” – Michael Murphy [30:47]

• On ugly architecture and the Guild House:
  “It's very patronizing…It's very shitty. It's very mean to be like, these guys, give them something shitty. Open a big satellite dish.” – Shane Gillis [36:44]

• On contracting and craftsmanship:
  “If you can tell a story about the building…often that can be through how it's made, you know, so the craft of making the building.” – Michael Murphy [42:09]

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Start | End | |-----------------------------------|---------|---------| | Intro & Hospital Design | 00:00 | 07:56 | | Historical Roots, Florence Nightingale | 03:39 | 07:20 | | Murphy’s Career Origin | 08:20 | 14:15 | | The House Restoration & Its Impact| 12:05 | 14:15 | | User Experience in Hospitals | 18:02 | 22:01 | | The Rwanda Hospital Project | 22:01 | 31:27 | | Ugly Architecture & Social Space | 34:05 | 38:31 | | The Builder/Architect Dynamic | 40:10 | 45:26 | | Storytelling in Architecture | 48:30 | 51:16 | | Cubicles, Modern Offices | 51:28 | 53:34 | | Gorilla Fund Campus w/ Ellen | 57:54 | 60:01 | | Premium Subscriber Q&A | 63:06 | 67:29 |

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Final Thoughts

This episode balances genuine architectural insight with the hosts’ classic comedic edge. Michael P. Murphy demonstrates how design can profoundly impact lives—from high-tech hospitals to the humblest home improvements—while Matt and Shane keep the energy irreverently human. Listeners come away with a newfound respect for the spaces they inhabit, interwoven with laughs and the permission to care about their own built environment, no matter how “ordinary.”

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Book Plug:
“Our World in Ten Buildings” by Michael P. Murphy
A book about how architecture defines who we are and how we live—not a ten-building bucket list, but a reflection on the every day spaces around us. [67:36]

Transcript

[A]

The Wild, Wild West.

[B]

All right, we're here. Michael B. Murphy. What's going on, man?

[A]

Hey, man. Great to be here, dude.

[B]

It was. You know, again, I'll be honest. I have a booking service. They just go. And I'm pretty bad in terms of, like, researching anything. They just go like, hey, here's the book. I go, sounds great. Sounds awesome. The book is called Our. Our World in ten Buildings.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. Ten buildings.

[B]

So you're. And this guy. I was doing a little. I did a little research.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. So I. You have, like an. Or you have, like, an architectural origin story.

[A]

I do. It's a little bit, but this book is about as well.

[B]

It's pretty charged. You were saying your father was sick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You went to the hospital, and you're like, dude, this place. Why does this place look so horrible? Is that about it?

[A]

Like, this is like, those are the two parts. Yeah. I got two kind of awakenings I had.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's a bad way to frame it. I shouldn't say that. You were just like, this doesn't look like a place to get healthy in.

[A]

It looks. No, it's true. I went. You know, like, I think a lot of people went to the hospital as you, everyone, for those, like, moments of great joy and your kids are born and terror when your family's sick. And I'm sitting around. It was actually like, the holidays. It's Christmas, and the whole family had to be there because he was getting surgery. And so the place emptied out, and there's like, no one in there except us. And he's like, this is the worst place I could imagine spending the holidays. And I'm looking around. I was a young architecture student. I'm looking around. I'm like, where is the architect? Where are the design elements in this place? This place is terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and so I think it kind of cracked my head up and said, you know, maybe one day I could design a hospital or something like that.

[B]

So you were already in architecture. You were studying architecture before that?

[A]

I had been in architecture school for one semester.

[B]

Oh, so you were pretty new.

[A]

I was pretty new. I didn't know a damn thing.

[B]

Did you talk to anyone in there about architecture during the thing, or were you just kind of just chilling?

[A]

You know, I was. There was this moment where they told him he had to walk around. He's like, oh, get your steps in. And so they're walking around the hallway with no windows, rooms on either side, the nursing station in the middle, and he was Very diligent, doing what the doctors told him. So he's walking around and I'm just like, this is the most abysmal experience. And yet it's this great famous cancer institution in New York City that's supposed to be one of the greatest ones and is for research. But the experience was pretty bleak, you know.

[B]

Yeah, hospitals are really pretty, pretty brutal in there. And it's like, I get it. You know, you're trying to, you got to build all the cool life saving machines. You can't really be thinking about nice windows and natural light. So your thing is like you, you can, you can have both, basically. Yeah.

[A]

I think the question, I think the question emerged, like, why is it, why is it that we can't have both? You know, it's interesting when you think about hospitality, spaces are designed completely around your experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, what the comfort of the chair is, what the smell of the room is, what the light setting is. It's all around making people feel like vibe and comfort, interest and vibe of the hospital sucks.

[B]

Yes. It's not a good vibe.

[A]

And hospitals, which they share the same root word.

[B]

True.

[A]

Are completely different. Completely on the other spectrum, it's all about the kind of institution and it's sanitary and cleanable spaces and you can understand there's a lot of liability around screwing it up.

[B]

Yeah. Do you think that's from like, I would imagine hospitals were invented for soldiers initially. So I think it's probably just like mercenary mindset where it's like that's they always were like, give them the worst possible shit, we'll put their legs back on and send them back out. And I just think it just. Everyone was like, yeah, that's just what they look like. And no one ever even thought about it.

[A]

It's a very good. Yeah, it's a very good point. You know, the history of hospitals, like originally hospitals actually were converted religious spaces, you know, so like before, let's say the 18th century, they just put the sick in the church, in the kind of large rooms and put beds in there. And you could hear, you know, the only healing power is the power of God, you know, the word of God. So the priest stands at the front, delivers the sermon and, you know, that's your pathway to, to heaven.

[B]

Really. That was the first hospital.

[A]

Those are the first medical spaces are like really converted, you know, religious spaces. Basically. Okay, they're taking in the sick. And then around, let's say the turn of the 18th century, kind of modern hospital starts to emerge as a place where the state is putting the ill and the sick.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, in the 19th century, 1850s is really when you see what we know today as the modern hospital realm.

[B]

Oh, they're pretty new.

[A]

Kind of new. And you're right that, like, it's this confluence of military and kind of state investment. So I did this research eventually to look into why was it so bad. You know, how can a place provide, like, the best care and actually potentially extend my father's life, actually provide really good care, good research, good surgery and have such a, you know, a poor experience in terms of, like, the comfort level there? You know, why are the two so disconnected? So I looked into this history. There's an interesting historical relationship where Florence Nightingale, who from the 1850s, kind of emerged as like, the first medical. Medical hospital. I don't want to say medical hospital designer, but she really. She built this thing. She wrote this book called Notes on Hospitals and Notes on Nursing.

[B]

What was she, a nurse?

[A]

She was a nurse. She sort of set up the first kind of nursing. She's this incredible innovator.

[B]

And I always thought she was like a character from, like, a Dickens novel. That's a real person.

[A]

I mean, it's a very real person.

[B]

That's like the ultimate nurse name Nightingale. My name is Nurse Florence Nightingale.

[A]

She's amazing. She went to the. Then it was a Crimean War, and all these. All these soldiers were dying because they were in these, what's called bell tents, and they were dying of disease. And. And she said, we need to bring. We need to. She learned that through the design of this new kind of military hospital that was brought in, that patients were actually living longer, they were being pulled off the ground, that they weren't getting sick, that there was airflow in the facility. And she realized that the hospital had this big impact on saving their life. And so she developed rules for how to design hospitals and use those rules that kind of change hospital design around the world.

[B]

Dang. So did you ever hear about the guy who discovered germs? Similar thing. The guy who was like, you should wash your hands after you, like. Like, you know, package away a dead body and you have to deliver child, you should wash your hands. That guy was told. He was like. Other doctors were like, shut the up, dude. There's nothing on our. There's not, like, invisible bugs on our hands. And that guy, I forget his name, but he actually. He was the one who, like, pretty much founded germ theory. And he died in, like, a sane asylum because all the other doctors were like, shut up.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know.

[B]

We don't hear about that. Like, we're doctors. We're gentlemen. We're clean. We can touch anything. It's not going to make us dirty.

[A]

Yeah. There was this study where, similar to that, where it was doctors ties that were getting germs on them, really affecting other patients as they were walking through different wards. And so what. So the. So this whole idea of sanitary clothing and other things, you know, but those same ideas are really, really fascinating. You know, it was the same idea around semmelweets.

[B]

Sorry. That's the guy. Oh, yeah, that guy. Good guy.

[A]

Good guy.

[B]

Horrible, horrible fate for him. He just tried to be like, guys, we should wash our hands after touching dead bod. Deliver. We shouldn't deliver babies right after. And they're like, shut up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. All that stuff was changing how we think about not just what medicine is, but how we live in the world, how the cities change.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it is. You know, it's.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

It is tricky because you're in the hospital and it's like, yo, let's make this place look awesome. And the doctors are like. They've been up for 35 hours straight. And they're like, shut. Shut up. They're pretty grumpy. Honestly. Doctors are pretty grumpy. You've worked with a lot of them, I guess. Yeah.

[A]

I end up working with a bunch of amazing doctors. Yeah.

[B]

Eat like crap, too. They have terrible diets. For real.

[A]

That's funny you say that. That is some truth.

[B]

It's 100 true. Doctors have the worst diets out of anybody. Well, they're not as bad as construction workers, but they fall for health food fads a lot. We'll drink like 10 Coke Zeros and be like, I'm completely healthy.

[A]

Gotta stay up. It's those shifts, long shifts.

[B]

It's kind of. Yeah. It's not. It's not good.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I met this doctor right at that same time, and he was thinking about. His name's Paul Farmer. He was this incredible doctor, and he was trying to build hospitals around the world for some of the poorest people and basically saying, this is terrible. We deserve better medical care, but also better spaces. And he invited me to work with him and actually ended up designing a hospital with him. And that's how I got started my first project.

[B]

Where was this at?

[A]

That hospital's in Rwanda. Dang East Africa. Yeah.

[B]

Building that resume.

[A]

They're like, we need an architect who works in Rwanda. Yeah.

[B]

Well, so I'll get back to that is, that, it's kind of fascinating. How did you, how did you get into Harvard architectural schools? You were an English, you were an English literature major.

[A]

I was.

[B]

How do you, how do you do that? You join like some intramural sports or like, how did you, how did you polish your resume to get up into.

[A]

Yeah, I had, I, you know, I, I definitely was not destined to be an architect. You know what I mean? I thought I wanted to be a journalist, maybe a future podcast.

[B]

Hey, you know, but this, this, this path is. You got to study hard.

[A]

I wanted to, I was trying to write a book, actually. This book, I often say, is the thing I've been trying to do for 30 years. So I'm glad it's out, but that's cool. I, I studied literature and I went and worked in publishing, like for a book agent actually, after school, which I did not love. And then I went to try to be a journalist. And so I was working abroad. Someone told me to do that. You got to go get your articles, be a stringer or something and go to some foreign place. So I went to South Africa. I had studied in school and went back there. I knew some people there and I was trying to figure it out. And while I was there not being very successful, I would say I got, I called my father and my mother on my father's birthday.

[B]

How old were you?

[A]

I was 20. I went there when I was 24.

[B]

So you're a 24 year old in South Africa trying to be a journalist.

[A]

Crazy. Yeah, it's like terrible.

[B]

Like, why isn't this working down in South Africa? I'm on the beat right now.

[A]

I know. Shouldn't I, shouldn't something great happen to me?

[B]

That is pretty sick though. So you were down. Sorry, you were down there and what happened?

[A]

I clearly met with some great advisors who told me first study English literature, one of the least employable professions actually. It's funny, just as a segue, but you know, when I did eventually go to architecture school in 2006, in 2008, the financial crisis happens and I was a realtor. Oh, you realtor?

[B]

I was a 19 year old realtor in Philadelphia. So yeah, I've suffered similar death setbacks.

[A]

Well, there's this, there's this article, the New York Times comes out, says architects have finally replaced English literature graduates as the least employable profession.

[B]

And then you switch to that.

[A]

Well, I was in architecture.

[B]

Oh, you just switched. Oh, because it was 2008.

[A]

Yeah, 2008. Because every architect was.

[B]

We share a similar arc.

[A]

So failing up, as they say.

[B]

So you switch. So, yeah. So what was. How did you switch? I still don't understand. You're an English literature major, and you were just like, you know what? Oh, because you were down there in South Africa.

[A]

I was down there trying to write. And then I called my dad, and my dad didn't. My mom answered the phone, and she said, listen, your dad's in the hospital. He's sick. He's got. They found cancer in his stomach. He had these. He was feeling uncomfortable. They opened him up, and they closed him up. And they said. She said, get home because he has three weeks to live.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And so we had that terrible call, and the next day, I jumped on a plane. I came back home. It was winter. I'm from Poughkeepsie, New York.

[B]

Chile.

[A]

Chile. Upstate, north of New York City. And I came home. And what do you do in that situation? I had this whole plan, bad plan, as you articulated, that wasn't working so well. So I kind of abandoned that, and I said, well, I'm just gonna sit here and figure out what to do with the family. And, well, backstory is, my dad had always worked on our family home. Every weekend he was tinkering, he was painting, he was stripping. Stripping paint on. Repainting this old historic home that they had bought for kind of a cheap deal and tried to fix it themselves.

[B]

Usually great for a marriage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, project.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Nothing makes a woman happy.

[A]

Why is dad on the ladder for seven hours on a Saturday? You know, we always heard that question, you know, with his, like, headphones, he got a little transistor radio playing the, you know, Yankees game or whatever.

[B]

That's actually kind of nice. So.

[A]

But he was always trying to finish it. Never, you know, kind of the job that never ends. And I said, well, what if I asked him? I said, you know, I'm gonna keep myself busy. What if I try to finish what you've been doing? So it was a good idea. So, you know, I started digging into the house. I started. It was winter, so I started working. Inside there was this old attic that had never been restored. I started working up there. So three weeks pass, he's still alive. Six weeks, he's still alive. He's responding to the drugs. He's still going to work. You know, a couple months pass, and he's like, I'm gonna join you on this. So he comes home from work every day. We're working on it together. It's like this really restorative experience. A year And a half passed. He's still alive. And we finished restoring the house.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

It's amazing. And I went outside with him at this one moment, you know, he's always at the end of the day. He'd always poured drink. He always had like a CC and Coke. I don't know who drinks Canadian club and Coke for your listeners, you know, some old rye, old school drink. And sipping the drink, we're standing outside summertime, and he goes, working on the house with you saved my life. It healed me.

[B]

He said, that's really nice.

[A]

And so that was a powerful experience, you know, I said like, is that true? Could it have happened? You know? But in that moment, I was like, okay, I think there's something bigger here. I should be an architect. I should actually go study this. I understand why that was the big moment for me.

[B]

So you gave up farting around with the literature until now. Picked up tools like a man. You found your calling.

[A]

I was grinding, grinding it out on the floor. Yeah.

[B]

So what was, what happened with the cancer?

[A]

Yeah, so he, you know, he went through remission. He had hair on his head. He was feeling good. We finished the house. But stage four cancer sure is a. It came back into my first semester. I told the story, we were in the hospital together. So I went. Then I went to architect.

[B]

That's when you're.

[A]

Then, okay, I'm back in the hospital just with a little knowledge, you know, I went into. I went to the Harvard Graduate School design. And I get, you know, overwhelmed with all the famous architects. How you'd be a famous architect. These are all the great people you should follow. And all this star studded.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, attention. And I'm go to this hospital. No one's talking about hospitals in the school. They're talking about museums, they're talking about these things. Sure. And I'm like, where are these guys in the hospital? Because my father's now suffering again. All these people are still people, the nurses, they're working in this terrible conditions. And where is that brilliance that we see in all these things? I just studied for the first semester and why aren't they here? So it was kind of like a real kind of whiplash experience. To go from having this powerful experience with my father where we kind of restored this thing together and he became restored and extended his life. And then to go to the place where he was facing imminent death again and see the lack of those thoughts in that experience. I think it really shook me a little bit. I talk about it in the book at the end. But six months later, he did eventually die, but it was not to kill the ending of the book. But he was very intentional about that, that choice. And he had now had. Had these thoughts, and he said, I'm going to choose where to go. So he, like, picked. He'd never, you know, this guy never left Poughkeepsie, New York, basically. He went abroad once to Barbados, this country where his friend. His friend had a house, invited him. He got a passport once for one trip.

[B]

I mean, kind of the best place to go, if I'm being honest.

[A]

Barbados is nice, you know, but, you know, Caribbean is nice. But he hadn't traveled at all, really. And he went down there and he had this great experience there. And he said, I don't want to die in that house. He didn't tell me all this. I found this out later. So he went to his friend's house in Barbados. He brought his four best friend, couple friends, and he designed that end of life experience to be very intentional. And I chose his last room, as I say in the book, that end of life, being able to design that last experience where he was looking at the horizon, where he was, like, in this beautiful environment where he was calm and comforted, his friends were around him, and he, like, went out.

[B]

Yeah, just pretty.

[A]

Went out like a king.

[B]

Yeah, pretty ideal, honestly.

[A]

And so I think all those things in my first year of architecture school, really, it just. It just shook me, you know, say, like, okay, we're doing this. Something's wrong. Yeah, Studying and working.

[B]

That makes sense. I was trying to figure out how, because it is kind of a. It's a. You know, it was kind of a bit of like an oxymoron to be like, we're bringing architecture to hospitals. You never hear about it. It's like, we're going to, you know, there's some rich guy with a ton of money. We're going to paint frescoes on a ceiling and give them bigger, you know. You know, I mean, like, it's. You rarely hear about beautiful. You. You really never hear about it. That actually does make sense of how you kind of connected that to be like, let's. Let's make this, you know, like, your dad had a nice experience. How do you make that? How do you make a hospital where, you know, most people are just going to sit in a hospital? How do you make that at least somewhat give, like, a sliver of that experience to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I think. I think it asks this question in myself, which is, why do we suffer through these anesthetic experiences. You know, why do we allow ourselves to be in conditions which are so poorly designed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And have no say in what they are? I mean, we live our lives. 90% of our lives are inside of buildings.

[B]

Yeah. People are going to say, because I don't have any money. That's why. So my house sucks.

[A]

Yeah. But in a way, in this book, I didn't want to say, okay, only great architecture, this famous houses we see in architectural record. I actually wanted to say, actually, there's ways in which. Like my dad did in his last room, that we. In each of our apartments or houses, everyone. And listening. You know, you actually are designers of your home for changing things. You're buying furniture, you're changing the layout of things. You're putting in mementos of your family, talismanic things that are from your history or memory, and you're making them your own, you know, and. And there's a real beauty to that, actually, in the spaces that we're given. We adapt them and design them and accommodate them to what makes us feel at ease and comfortable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

No, that is pretty cool. So then you. So is that how you kind of got into, I guess, your focus in architecture, where you're like, all right, let's work on making plays. I remember the first time I was in a children's hospital. Children's hospitals kind of do this.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

[B]

They're like. I walked in. I remember it was like, you know, if you have kids, you've ever been to a children's hospital. It's like, it's a. It's. It's a really gut wrenching experience. But then you're seeing, like, kids who are, like, really, really sick, and you're like, all right, let me stop being a baby. Whatever. But I remember, like, for real, almost crying being like, this is so nice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That they've put all of this thought into, like, making these places. The Philadelphia is children's hospital. Chop is like, really, really nice. The way they've set it up and they. You could tell they really designed it in a way to make, you know, kids feel more comfortable and not like they're in such a ser. Like a serious, scary place.

[A]

Yeah. It's a really good point. In. In a children's hospital, because no one's going to a children's hospital for. For great things.

[B]

No, it's like bleak. We. We. Our second kid, when there. When she was just a little baby, had. They thought she had Meningitis. She had such a super high fever that they, it wasn't one of them's like bacterial. I think it goes like to the brain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they like, we just have to be sure. They had to give her like a spinal tap and she was a tiny little thing and I'm, you know, I'm like a wreck. But I remember just really, especially in moments like that, you're like, it's really nice we can all come together, you know, and, and actually collectively design a place for everybody that, you know, because that is, it's just like a brutal,

[A]

you know, it's a brutal experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And they're like at the bare minimum, I've been in these children's hospitals and they're like, you know, they're putting like Snoopy characters on the wall or something or they have some play area. They're at least trying to think about what the kids experience is going to be.

[B]

You know, they had Gatorade in the waiting room and I was like, guys, come here. Slide me live. It's really good. I was like, this is so nice

[A]

to have this Gatorade. Free Gatorade.

[B]

It's called Gatorade. It was awesome.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's a good point. How do you get into the mindset of those who are experiencing that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that question. And in hospitals we're often. There's a lot of times where we've lost that. We're like, this thing has to be a high performance machine, which is. We're grateful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a high performance machine and it's doing incredible life changing work. So I don't want to discount that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's also a place where people work every day. Yeah. Nurses are working there and they're grinding it out and they're doing hard hours and doctors are working and they're trying to like muscle through the hard work of this. And is that the kind of workplace that you'd want to be in? You know, it's not Facebook's offices. You know, it's not like there's not like, you know, free lunch everywhere. You know, they're not thinking about that total experience of what it is to take care of the workers and labor there as well as the people that are in there all the time.

[B]

Yeah. There's no artistry basically in the whole setup.

[A]

So some of that can change, you know, But I think it is about understanding the confluence and trying to say, you know, hospitals are the places where we face great joy and Great fear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we got to take care of the people that are in that environment.

[B]

So how have you. So going back to the Rwanda thing, you're down there. That was, like, your first project.

[A]

I mean, it's a crazy story because, you know, I'm in this. I'm in this moment of, like, existential crisis where I'm like, what am I studying this thing for?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not going to be one of these architects. And my dad. My dad's dying. I'm going home every weekend. Driving back from Boston to Poughkeepsie, trying to be with him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know if you've ever been with someone at the end of their life. I mean, who's just muscling through, like, every sports program. He could watch, you know, like, he was watching golf, he's watching football. He's just like, the whole day, he's just watching tv.

[B]

I. I was. I was dispatched. One of my dad's buddies had pancreatic cancer, and he was really just, like, wasting away. And so my dad would, like, send us over there, like.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Because we would make them, like, weed, coconut oil, like, edible stuff. And he'd be like, go over, hang out, man. Go, like, hang out. Spend some time with the guy. And he. I remember he would just sit in his underwear and just watch westerns. So I'll just chill with him for, like, a couple hours every now and again, just watch. Just sit there, just watch westerns with him. But he was. He was a pretty funny guy, man.

[A]

I mean, I remember it was. I wait for the commercial break, and I try to get something potent in there. Dad, keep. Stay alive. I love you. Yeah. I love you, dad. Okay, commercials, you know, it's pretty bleak.

[B]

See the robots? I'm like, Fox Football Sunday. All right, let's be quiet.

[A]

Yeah. So I had a different experience my first year, and then I met this doctor, you know, this Dr. Paul Farmer. And he was like, look, we're building hospitals in Haiti and in Rwanda, and we're working with all these communities. And who funds that?

[B]

That's my. That's the question. How do you get the money to, like, kind of do stuff like that?

[A]

He was very interesting guy. His organization, Partners in Health, is incredible entity, you know, and he was grinding it out, raising money from philanthropists. He had a lot of money from. There was a lot of money funding the programs from pepfar, actually, from which was the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Pretty good.

[B]

That's actually impressive.

[A]

Actually, George Bush put that together. It's one of his crowning achievements. They funded all this money into AIDS treatment, especially in Sub Saharan Africa, but not just solely there. And that had a lot of money pumped into programs that were radically reducing infection rates and also helped some fund infrastructure. So he was raising money in different ways. Anyway, long story short, he was partnered with the government of Rwanda, and they were building after the. They had had a genocide 10 years earlier. They were investing in architecture and infrastructure while the rest of the world was paralyzed after the crisis.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And they were building hospitals, and he raised a little money to build a new hospital. They asked him to build a new hospital. He's like, we gotta do new. We gotta do a new hospital. Would you ever come and do this with us?

[B]

What year were you in?

[A]

This is 2007. I went to Rwanda to work with him.

[B]

And what year were you in in terms of studies? Like, what was your.

[A]

So I had one awesome year under my belt.

[B]

That's pretty cool, though. That's awesome. You got to, like, no shoulder bag on and no experience.

[A]

Yeah. No firm experience, and. But, you know, they had done it before. They had done stuff before. I was like, look, I have no experience. He goes, actually, we want that because, you know, if you've done it a hundred times now, you're bringing all that baggage. We actually have. We've done it before. We've done it in our way, and we need you to come in and assist us. So it wasn't like, I'm coming in as the architect. It was, I'm going to come and work with y'. All.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

To, like, see if we can improve, basically, or just add to what you're already doing. And so I moved. You know, I left school after my second year and moved to Rwanda to be with his team and try to work on this new hospital called the Bataro Hospital. And that's where we tested all these ideas, where I learned about the history of Florence Nightingale. It's where I asked questions like, why are hospitals making people sicker instead of healthier? So I got really into airflow.

[B]

Yeah, I saw that from your TED Talk. That was kind of cool.

[A]

How can buildings breathe better?

[B]

Basically? How to get.

[A]

Re.

[B]

Get the air. I never even thought about that because I. I just assumed, like, in my house, like, during winter time, if I don't open a window, I'm like, this is just, like, old air.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

It is. You're. It's a sustainable recycling.

[A]

We learned this in During COVID Yeah, true. You know, it was about airflow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're not getting enough air management. You know, once we sealed all of our. This is the other lesson I learned once in the. In 1950s, where basically everything became air conditioned. And there's lots of good benefits to air conditioning. Certainly here in Austin, where it's 100 degrees, we need somebody. I love AC, you know, but it also means that the air inside often is not recycled enough to clean it.

[B]

Yeah, I never even thought so that it's. So in the hospital, you would think like a. Like a central aired house would have, like, a duct that pulls air in from the outside just to give you some fresh air.

[A]

That's right. Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't, Right?

[A]

No, they do. I mean, they have big mechanical systems in hospitals, and it's for particularly sick patients. They go in what's called a negative pressure room, where they're pulling air out constantly. So those folks in a modern hospital who have tuberculosis or Covid or a disease which is infecting the air, they would be put into, let's say, a negative pressure room. But in a place like Rwanda, they didn't have negative pressure rooms. So it's the hallways. Patients were coming in very sick and infecting other patients, and it's the medical space that was contaminating those patients.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And so we had to think really kind of back to the origins of architecture and say, okay, if we don't have the money for big air conditioning units or big mechanical systems, can we design the building so you get enough natural ventilation that reduces the overall infection rates radically?

[B]

And there was, like, a metric I remember you're saying, like, you can measure how many times the air is completely recycled in a building. Or basically, like, fresh air coming in, old air out.

[A]

Yeah. They call it air changes per hour. And, you know, typically, a normal room might get, like, two to three air changes per hour, but in, like, a negative pressure room, you're getting a few more. And during COVID you wanted to get, like, eight air changes per hour. You know, so you're kind of like, it's the same thing with tb. You want to get a lot more. And so we said, okay. I went back to Nightingale's strategies, and she had ideas about window placement and size. She had ideas about how big the floor plate or the kind of plan or the room could be. And all of those things are this relationship which create air. Air management, airflow. And if we introduce that back into this modern hospital in Rwanda, could we actually reduce infection Rates and create not only a comfortable space, a beautiful space on this hilltop that looks this incredible view.

[B]

I will say the. I checked out your portfolio. I was trying to dig up at least one stinkard. Really nice, dude. I. I was like, damn. That. It was the. What was it? That. Not massa amma.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Stuff looked crazy, man.

[A]

Thanks, bro.

[B]

Really, for real. I was. I was just. I was like, there's got to be one in here. Like, what the hell is it? I was like, damn, this is awesome.

[A]

We don't put the stinkers on the website.

[B]

So what was the tech level in the hospital in Rwanda? You're talking like you had just open windows, whereas a breeze just coming through.

[A]

Right. Pretty low tech, you know, but there's simple, simple metrics. Size of windows, size of room. And then this is key. High ceilings. What we call the upper room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where the air flows up. And then there's this great Kentucky company outside of Louisville called Big Ass Fans. You know, this group.

[B]

It's awesome. Sounds enough. That sounds awesome.

[A]

And we found them and they create these huge ceiling fans. So I wrote to big ass fans. I said, would you guys ever think about donating, helping us put these big ceiling fans in these open wards? And they were like, on board.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

So we had this Big ass fans.

[B]

Shout out to Big ass fans.

[A]

Shout out to big ass fans. And it's hilarious too, because you had all these T shirts, all these dudes, construction workers wearing big ass fan T shirts. Like, no idea what this meant. It's hilarious.

[B]

That's really funny.

[A]

So we had this big airflow. Kind of goes slow, but because they're big, they get a lot of airflow.

[B]

We have one in the Austin airport that's just a totally massive metal fan.

[A]

I might be a big S fan.

[B]

That might be a big ass fan.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. To look when I'm walking through there, because it gets air up, a lot of air up. But it doesn't. You don't have the speed that creates a lot of, let's say, cools you down, actually. So it gets the room up. It gets the air up into the upper room. And then up there we had UV GI lights, ultraviolet germicidal radiation lights. That cleans the air up there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it moves out. So just those simple strategies actually created enough air changes per hour that we needed without having to bring in big mechanical systems. Systems.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

And it kind of changed the way I think about buildings. I started to say buildings have to breathe yeah. They allow us to breathe. You know, they're actually working with us, actually. So our ability to breathe clean air is predicated on the spaces we're in, actually. And because we spend most of our lives in these spaces, and that's a critical measure of our health and our comfort and our ability to live.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And why is it that the buildings are not. Why aren't we thinking about buildings as this, like a series of lungs or a filter of the outside to the inside more than just the spaces that we're in and we're forced.

[B]

Yeah. Keep it cold and keep it cool and all that stuff.

[A]

Yeah. So that was interesting.

[B]

That is pretty. I really do. I think it goes back to just like, you know, medieval peasant mentality where it's like, all right, we're going to build. If we build stuff for the general population, it's just, let's just build it. Be happy you have it. It's. It's not going to help you in any way. It's not gonna be good for you. But just shut up and just deal with it because that's. I think that's why, like, hospitals really do suck.

[A]

So some of that truth. Yeah. It's like the bare minimum.

[B]

Well, it's almost just unthinkable to be like, let's, let's make this nice. Because everyone's like, shut up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Be glad you have anything at all.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we could. And there's that inequality of space, that kind of indignity of the environments that we live in that we don't deserve. Spaces that not just treat us correctly or treat us well, but also inspire us or give us a sense of awe. I mean, I think, you know, if you go back to the, you know, to the kind of medieval period, you have a great distinction. Right. You have maybe terrible environments that you live in in homes or hovels or something like that.

[B]

Yeah. They just like butcher animals and throw them right outside. There you go.

[A]

You have terrible spaces that are not cleanly and maybe not inspiring. And then you go to the cathedral.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the cathedral is like one of the most awe inspiring things you've ever seen. And so they were using architecture and its greatest ability to inspire awe to remind us that there's these greater powers that are above us that you should be inspired by and that give you kind of purpose. So in a way, every day the public is, is going in between the conditions of the ordinary and the conditions of the inspiring.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At some moments in their life, like, I'm sure each of US has an architectural memory that they could tell a story about. It's one of the reasons I wrote this book. It's like, you know, what is that moment where you said, oh, that was a badass experience I had or, you

[B]

know, notice for me.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

You probably actually know this. The Egg in Albany.

[A]

Oh, yeah, the Egg.

[B]

I performed in the Egg and I. I'll be honest, that. That was awesome.

[A]

Yeah. What was it about the Egg that.

[B]

It's just cool. I was in an egg. I don't know. I was in like a circular, completely circular building. They're. You Josh, please pull up a picture of the Egg in Albany. It was.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, are you familiar with Albany? Yeah. Because then they have those like government buildings. It looks like evil. Yeah, they have those like, it's like brutalist, I guess. They have those like, very like you. You like come over whatever highway, that. Whatever road that is, and you see this like egg shaped building looming in the distance. That thing, that big concrete satellite dish looking thing. But then there's those buildings to the left corner.

[A]

Yeah. It almost looks like they.

[B]

At night time they stick up and it looks like the evil empire out of Star Wars. And honestly too, I don't, I don't think anyone. Well, people probably know, but they're like federal buildings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I don't. I couldn't really get an answer from people. Like, what's actually in them? They're like, I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. It's like state office buildings.

[B]

Yeah. And the clearance you need, like not military clearance. When you pull in, it's like very, very restrictive. Like, who can go in there? You need all these credentials. So. Yeah, that was the picture right there, Josh.

[A]

Memorable, right?

[B]

Ah, yeah. That one stuck with me. I just remember pulling up be like, why did they do this? It looks terrible. The Egg was cool. The buildings behind it were like scary, like literally scary looking.

[A]

Yeah. And they're so different than the, the structures around them, which are historic 19th century buildings.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That period of time in the, in the, in the 60s with urban renewal dollars was a big moment of like big heroic, visionary and kind of sometimes like really missed the mark. Yeah.

[B]

Well, so do you. Are you Josh, you pull up the Guild House in Philadelphia. Are you familiar with the Guild House?

[A]

So show me the Guild House. Yeah, so I know the Guild House. Yes, of course. The ugliest architecture.

[B]

It's the ugliest building. And this is what I didn't realize that that was designed purposely. Someone made this place. I said, pass it Every day. The Guild House. It's actually kind of irritated me. Yeah, that place on, I don't know, like 8th and Spring Garden somewhere. But that was designed by an architect which I, I get the idea was like, let's not like clash with the existing neighborhood. Let's give it something that like we kind of fit in. Yeah, but that was for basically low income senior citizens. And he was like, let's just like purposely make this thing look almost like kind of like run down. And then he had a big satellite dish on the top of it they had to remove.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because that was like an insider joke. Like these guys are just sitting there for the rest of their life watching TV all day in the shitt building. And then they took the satellite dish off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was also in the 60s.

[A]

As well as Robert Venturi. Yeah.

[B]

What the hell.

[A]

Yeah. Robert Venturi and Denise Scott Brown, Philadelphia architects. Real. I actually write about them a little bit in the book. You know, they, they really champion this. What became postmodernism and using kind of signs and symbols in architecture to signal a kind of language so that you read. He actually defended the Guildhouse as ugly architecture. You know, that you would read the ugly and it could be ordinary and.

[B]

Okay, I mean, this guy's gotta knock it off.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, just give him nice rooms and some ceiling. Like these are low income guys in Philadelphia trying to, you know, finish their years out.

[A]

It's a very kind of populous thing, but it's also, you know, it's sort of. There's so many Venturi, Scott Brown structures that really miss the mark and are kind of hideous architecture. And they, but they're kind of obsessed with the ordinary in a way. Like they, they, they were obsessed with Las Vegas. They went to Las Vegas and created an entire theory around the buildings on the Strip. They were just boxes with big signs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, and they were saying, you know, there's something about this that we should think about as like a vernacular American architecture where we care about the sign, but we don't care about what's behind the sign. I don't fully agree with that.

[B]

I don't know what they're talking about. I feel like the stroll. Is that the old strip in Vegas.

[A]

The old strip? Yeah.

[B]

Isn't that like the Flamingo? They have like pink. But was he. I don't even understand that. It looks insane when you go to Vegas. It does not look ordinary whatsoever.

[A]

No. Now. They're now, now emblematic. Yeah, emblematic of like little mini Venice or a Little mini. Yeah, you know, New York City or

[B]

whatever was the old strip that plain. What year was this?

[A]

This was the 60s.

[B]

It was just a big neon sign. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So what the hell? Okay, so I still don't get what he's talking about.

[A]

I think what they were saying.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah, that, you know, we're attracted to the symbol and the sign and the eat here and come in here, but once you get inside, it can be like every other building.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that's why I think that we should focus on the language if you want to use it, or the symbol that wraps the building and not care so much about the experience inside. And of course, like flies in the face of a lot of other architectural theorists who'd say, like, the things should be interrelated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was an interesting and provocative theory which definitely changed, you know, changed the way that architects started to focus on what it looks like from the outside.

[B]

I mean, here's the thing. And again, I don't, I've never studied architecture, but if I had a guess, if I was going, all right, what would I. If I'm like a 75 year old dude who's lived in Philly my whole life and now I'm in a low income housing, just give the guy like a slightly higher ceiling. This is high ceilings. This is nice. Totally hitting him with the high concepts. Crazy. And especially being like, it's shitty on purpose.

[A]

Shitty on purpose.

[B]

Come on, man. I, When I read that, I was like, what the.

[A]

It's very patronizing.

[B]

It is. It's very shitty. It's very, it's very mean to be like, these guys, give them something shitty. Open a big satellite dish.

[A]

Yeah. I also felt like they never, you know, I, I critique it a little bit in the, in the book. Which is to say, like, you know, there's also a reason why you have these big signs in Vegas at the time. It's because you're trying to capture the most capital. You're trying to get the people to buy what they have. You want the louder and louder sign. So there's a economic driver behind that investment that has nothing to do with the experience one has and the desire one has to like, be in a space for a long period of time.

[B]

Casinos are freaked out because it's like they're purposely designed to be disorienting. Kind of just leave. You just like, don't leave me. You literally can't figure out how to

[A]

get out of there. There. Yeah, they're labyrinthine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No clocks pumping in Air. So you stay awake. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, do they do that?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Oh, God. Terrible, terrible. Well, okay, so. Okay, so in architect school, this is. This is one of my prepared questions. At what point in architect school do they teach you how to effectively blame everything on the contractors?

[A]

This is the. Is lesson number one. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

It is nice. It's a nice thing to be able to do.

[A]

Well, trust me, when you work with the contras, they're blaming everything on the arch.

[B]

I know, I know. It's. It's literally vice versa.

[A]

It's like this. It is actually constructed as this completely adverse relationship from the beginning. Yeah. You have the big ideas and they're getting everything done.

[B]

Well, they're looking at your blue. They're looking at the plans going, bullshit, we made some changes.

[A]

Because this.

[B]

You can't even do this. They don't know what it's like. And I've seen it a million times.

[A]

Yeah, that's what was so interesting about working in, you know, working in Rwanda, because they didn't have. They didn't. We didn't have an architect per se. I was, I was working with the team, but they had a builder, this guy, Bruce Nize, and he had these shops where he was making every piece of furniture, making window details, making. They're making coffins for the hospital. I mean, making. Everything had metal shop and wood shop, and. And I was like, oh, this is amazing. Like, you're actually working interrelated with the builder. We're going to build it together, we're going to design it together, we're going to test it together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so there was that, that relationship, that adverse relationship. Never. I didn't learn through that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I learned how to, like, work directly in relationship with those who were going to make it because we could make it right on site, which is sort of something you don't have access to here, where everything is imported.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and that was a really unique experience. Yeah, that's kind of cool. But there is this moment where you say, okay, architects have this position on high and we create the great ideas and then everyone else has to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Surrender to that. And I think that kind of, again, patronizing position is completely. It recreates the idea that only some get access to architecture and architects and that we all have to live and suffer through these terrible spaces in our lives instead of trying to figure out how to. How to solve and fix the things.

[B]

I was, I was reading. I've been reading. This guy's trying to read his book. It's. It's really hard to read, but he, it's called After Virtue. It's a, like a real dense philosophical book by Alistair McIntyre. And he was talking about his, part of his thing was like, we need to go back to like, engaging in practices for the sake of the practice rather than the external reward, which is like a nice thing to think about. And, but then he was like, talking about, like, okay, he had to define what a practice was. So he was, he's like, architecture is a practice. And like, what about bricklaying? He's like, not a practice. He's like, that's just part of, that's just a part of architecture. It was kind of, it was kind of a snobby take. He was like, there's nothing to be had internally by being a, a good bricklayer. You're just a subset of the practice of architecture.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I don't agree with that at all.

[B]

Yeah, so he caught a lot of flack for it, honestly. Pretty. I think kind of a snobby take.

[A]

Yeah, it is, I think one of the things I learned is it's, you know, people ask, oh, how do you define what a more beautiful building is versus another? And I say, you know, if you can tell a story about the building, if you can communicate, like, why it is the way it is, and often that can be through how it's made, you know, so the craft of making the building. I've worked with these stonemasons who, you know, we work together on making this really beautiful stone wall out of this volcanic rock. Very nice in the, you know, in the ground. And it's like, oh, this is about, they made every single edge of every single rock. It was handcrafted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, you can see the thousands of hours and the lot, all the hand stone cutting that was going on inside. And you can see this incredible thing they created which will stand the test of time. And in that is the story for generations. I made that stone wall.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, my great, great grandfather was a stonemason from Ireland, came up to the Hudson Valley. That's why we were there. He came to build these estates that were made out of these, like, river stones. You know, you had this Irish stone,

[B]

you know, usually breathable stone too.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Very breathable stones. Yeah, I, I, that's the thing. It's, it is a funny thing to say because I think stone masonry is almost like a very, it is kind of an art. You have to like, take the stone, know how to actually cut them and where to place them. And how to cut, you know, put. They're not like, all the same color. It's not like a store.

[A]

I mean, you see this in, like, especially in Japan, where there's such a reverence for the tradition of craft, you know, wood, woodworking and, and masonry and everything, and, and we've lost a lot of that. Yeah. But I think reverting to that, having that pride in what's made back to my own experience working on my own home, like, having to sand and work on every piece of wood and, you know, you get really intimate with the material and the making of a room or a floor, and it reminds you that lots of hands have touched this thing over time. Lots of people have worked on this to keep it alive. And there's a sort of reverence to being part of that long relay race of people creating spaces that protect us.

[B]

That is nice, man. Especially I should paint houses, and I. Just changing the color of a room would make me so happy. When I would finally finish the last coat and look at it and be like. Like, it's just. It was such a joy. I'd be like, this is such a nice. It was just a nice feeling.

[A]

Yeah. Having that kind of finished thing, you can imagine it taking on new life.

[B]

Yeah. Now let me ask you this. That being said, as an architect, you ever find yourself, when meeting a contractor for the first time, genuinely wondering, like, what hellhole did this illiterate freak crawl out of? You'll have to answer that. This is a funny question.

[A]

So, I mean, I, I, I actually have. I mean, I will say I have a lot of. I have a lot of reverence for people who make things, you know, because it's, it's not.

[B]

No, they are.

[A]

It's not easy.

[B]

It's one of. I would, I would say, because a lot of my family did construction growing up, and it's like, it's one of the. I swear to God, it's one of the hardest. It's. I think it's one of the most fun jobs because you're different places all the time. Like, I really love that part of it. But then it's like, it's hard work. It, like, kind of destroys your body over time, depending on what you're doing. And then you have to go collect. You have to go chase your money down. So, like, you're actually working. And then there's a whole other part of the job where you have to go, like, like, hey, pay me for that thing I did. People like, yeah, you're at risk.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think what's fascinating about being a builder or contractors, you can kind of see the whole system. You take on all this risk. You're trying to budget a future thing that may go over budget. You know, you're assembling all sorts of teams of labor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you're trying to bring in folks, people you trust, people you don't know, and get this thing done on, you know, you're future proofing. I hope it'll take this long. I hope the weather will.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, allow me to do it.

[B]

You're also managing like, like, honestly, if you like. When I would do construction, a huge. I would. Not all, but a sizable portion of the workforce would be like ex convicts.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Not yet convict. You know, you're dealing with it. You're dealing with a fucking pretty big. You're organizing a pretty rough version, you know, rough squad usually. And it's like, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's definitely a different beast altogether.

[A]

It's good work, hard work.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Yeah. I always worked, I worked mostly in food service, but every thing, it's the same exact thing every weekend, grinding out like the amount of vegetable, amount of peppers I cut and onions I cut. You know, prepping for this at this place I worked all through high school. You know, it's like, I get it, like, you know, but you at the end of the day, you know, you crack a beer, you look at what you did, you see the next day, and you're really proud of it. And that kind of is a really powerful thing. And when the architect is, I think put move removed from that process and on a perch, you know, build this vision, I think it's a complete disconnect into like the world around us and why it matters. It's the people that make it that actually matter.

[B]

Yeah, no, I agree. It is. You know, so when you, so you gave the TED Talk, your TED talk was like. It was a huge TED talk. I'm like, is that. Oh, you know, it was a while ago.

[A]

It was a while ago. We got, we got, you know, it did well.

[B]

But that you also gave TED a TED Talk in the golden age of TED talks.

[A]

That was a good time.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying that I, I used to remember, like if someone gave a TED Talk, like, you know, what was that, like 13 years ago? Maybe you did or.

[A]

I did it. Yeah. Like in 15. So like that was the golden years ago.

[B]

That was the golden age. That was, was that before TEDx, because they watered down the sauce a little bit.

[A]

I think it was like simultaneous. But it wasn't. Tedx was starting to happen then. Tedx was starting. Don't quote me. Totally. But it was like. It was. There was some TEDx happening like around then, but there was. You still did a 13 minute talk where I think they now have like a six minute talk or something.

[B]

Okay, well, what was it, what was it like giving a TED Talk? I always wanted. I don't know anyone who's given one. So I'm always really curious what that experience is like.

[A]

I mean, I kept. I always described it as like high school theater. You know, it was like when I did plays in high school and you had to like, remember all the words. And I was like, it was closest thing to theater or, you know, so

[B]

you had a little training, so you were able to do.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I put the presentation together. I'm working with this coach, Chi Pearlman. She's amazing and working through the story. And she would always, you know, architecture is. We always talk about buildings, yada, yada, yada. Like, we just talked about the Guild hall and like, you get a little highfalutin. But she was always bringing back down a narrative. It was really meaningful for me to say, okay, people are gonna respond to the story of actually your dad got sick and this building changed him or like other people. That's what people care about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I hadn't seen architects really describe buildings in a narrative way that would like reach people. And so working on it with her and then memorizing it and then like, you know, I was like doing jogs and like saying it out loud and all this stuff like that, like freaking people out around me. I remember I was like in the treadmill in the basement of the hotel. And like, this is crazy moment, like, in front of me is because Ted attracted all these people, right? So in front of me is Al Gore on the treadmill running, Right. And next to me is Chelsea Clinton on the treadmill running. You know, I don't know if they really want to see each other, but there was a big mirror where you could sort of all see each other. And I'm like running between Chelsea Clinton and Alcor speaking the TED Talk out loud, you know, freaking everybody out.

[B]

What do they, what did, what did Gore and Clinton. Do they even look at you or they just.

[A]

Nope. And they didn't look at each other either, because I think it was. Yeah, they had a little history. A little history there, but that's the kind of. That's that weird ecosystem.

[B]

Who was putting on harder work? Who was putting in harder work on the treadmill?

[A]

Good question. I don't. You know, I think it was. I was doing.

[B]

Honestly. Yeah, you're crushing. I would have definitely pace matched Clinton and Gore if I was between them.

[A]

You're like seven, eight.

[B]

Incline. Yeah, incline. Oh, yeah, for sure. You know me. 8. 30 seconds back down to 4.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, that was. That was interesting. But it was. I would say, you know, after it was finished, I got a lot of really interesting. I mean, great feedback and people. People wrote to me these cold emails that were like, I want to tell you the story of my house that I worked on with my dad. Or I want to tell you the story the school I went to. That was, like, really weird. And why was it that way? And I started getting all these, like, everyday reflections on the architecture and the buildings that mattered to people. And I think it was from that TED Talk experience and the response that it got from being about stories.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That I was like, I have to write a book that actually gets people to tell their stories. You know, that's why I wrote this book, which was to say, let me tell you about architecture in our world. Not the architecture you should go to, not the 10 buildings you should go to in your lifetime in your bucket list. It's not what this book is. This book is like, why do hospitals matter? Why do houses matter? Why do prisons matter? Why does the workplace matter? Like, how do we build a language that we understand and evaluate the spaces that we're foisted into so that we can start reflecting back? And you send me those. I want to hear those stories. I want to hear from your readers, your listeners. Like, hey, man, I had this crazy experience in this building. It changed my life. Or I had this terrible experience that changed my life. And that's where as an architect, you gain the most knowledge. Actually.

[B]

Yeah, I was just talking to my friend before I came here about cubicles and how, like, I think they're a thing. In the past now, I didn't realize that it's more now, like the open floor concept. Yeah. But the cubicles is, like, a pretty dastardly design.

[A]

I write about the cubicle in the book.

[B]

Do you really?

[A]

Yeah, there's a book. There's a chapter on the workplace, on our. On. I start with the factory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then there was this guy at this furniture company named Herman Miller, which is a famous furniture company in Michigan, this guy named Probst, and he Designed the modern office cubicle.

[B]

Did he really?

[A]

Yeah. And it was like this vision of, like, creating all these systems that could be plug and played and grow and evolve in the modern workplace. It's kind of a visionary system idea. And later in his life, he complained. You know, he said, look, my big idea of the cubicle has been destroyed.

[B]

What was his original idea?

[A]

Well, it was that you could create, like, a good enough workplace that could adapt and change and evolve with the needs of the company and. Yeah, and there's some beauty into that. There's a beauty into creating this adaptable system that's better than the average. Yeah, but what happened is, of course, it created this kind of the office space scenario, you know, the sort of banal, the horrible, the sitting in a basement, the living in a cubicle kind of environment. And. And so you have both maybe the aspiration of it and also the use of it.

[B]

Well, that was. Adam Smith had a quote about factories in general. He's like, dude, if we can give everyone just one mindless task all day, every day, they'll fly off into these, like, heightened flights of fancy, and they'll come up with, like, the next great thing. And it was just like. No. They kind of just stare at the wall. It is funny when. Yeah, I mean, it's a cool idea in concept, but. But it's like. Yeah, it's not the case.

[A]

Yeah. It's use. And when it was deployed, you know, create a lot of terrible conditions that people then fought against. You know, but then the open work plan is also not great either. People get into their headphones, into their Zoom calls, and.

[B]

Yeah. And you're like, you almost want the walls. And I thought about that too. It's like, I might want to retreat to the walls of the cubicle if you put me at a table with, like, four people.

[A]

Yeah. There's like an imperfect. You're trying to figure out how to work well together and also have heads down work and that we haven't fully figured out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the full zoom Office. Office work is not a great environment. We have no socialization.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have no way to be together in person.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's. I've talked to people who do kind of, like, more office stuff, and there's been a lot of people after Covid. They're like, I can't wait to go back to the office. Like, I actually want to go back. It is. Sounds cool to be like, nice. I can chill in my house and sweatpants. But then you do that every day. And, like, I think there is, like, the commute is. There's a soul crushing aspect of the commute, but then there's also, like, shutting your laptop. And now you're just in your house and you're like, all right, yeah, just me again.

[A]

Still here.

[B]

It's just me.

[A]

Yeah, still here. I'm gonna do it. We, my wife and I call them freedom rides. We're like, I'm gonna go to the. I'm gonna go to the grocery store and do a freedom ride.

[B]

Yeah, just drive the house. So strawberries with LinkedIn or not LinkedIn with. With Ted. The TED Talk. When you did that, did you take, like, beta blockers or did you just kind of raw dog it?

[A]

I just. I just did it. Yeah.

[B]

Raw dog. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I get a lot. A lot of people are talking about beta blocker. Like, you got to take them. I'm like, I don't know, man.

[A]

I don't. No, I've never. No, I've never taken that. But I'm interested. Tell me why. Tell me.

[B]

They say, like, it's like the public speaking kind of like, it's like the cure all.

[A]

Oh, is that right?

[B]

They say it doesn't allow your heart rate to rise, basically. So, like, you. You like. They say you, like, can't actually experience the physical symptoms of anxiety again. I've never tried it.

[A]

I should have taken a bunch today.

[B]

True, true. Yeah. Three coffees.

[A]

Might not be three coffees. Yeah, no, I didn't do anything like that. But I did, you know, I did practice a lot, like, theater, you know, So I felt ready. But you're ready. I'll tell you, man, there was this. There was one dude who. They called it, you get step on the red circle. This one guy went out there, had a. Had a talk to give, and he just went blank. He just went blank. And everyone in the crowd was just like, is this an actual. Then he sat down, everyone stood up and clapped and they stood up. He tried to do it again. Blank. It was such a bomb. Yes. It was hard to watch.

[B]

That is tough.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I do like the guys who go, like, they banned my TED Talk. Here's my band. I kind of like the renegade TED Talkers. Like, they banned my shit. So when you gave the TED Talk, did you get, like, flooded with, like, I guess, like, DMs and stuff? Like, what I'm trying to ask is, like, what did the bab. Did the babes respond to the TED Talk?

[A]

I mean, I got a lot of good. I mean, it was mostly like, people my mom's age, you know, who were

[B]

like, okay, here we go.

[A]

Like, you know, I've got this. You know, my son needs a job, or, like, you know, I've got this house, you know, like, we're working on my garage, you know, that kind of thing.

[B]

Nothing intriguing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So do you jump in from TED Talks? Do you like LinkedIn? I kind of said it too early, but. Do you like LinkedIn? What are your thoughts on LinkedIn?

[A]

You know, I. I don't. I hadn't used a lot of social media, to be honest with you.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

For, like, years. But when I kind of went back on it recently as I was doing some new work, and, you know, obviously, it's a good way to connect, but also I'm trying to, like, you know, stay. Keep my eyes off the phone.

[B]

Get off of there.

[A]

Get off it. Like, not be too consumed by. I was watching, you know, like, all of us, like, tracking things and seeing if people respond and the like button and.

[B]

Well, LinkedIn's weird because you get, like, you get endorsements, so you. You say, like, these are my skills, and then your, you know, your friends or whoever. Like, yeah, he's actually great at strategic planning.

[A]

Yeah, I haven't done any of that stuff because a lot of the work that I'm getting is from relationships, you know, people I meet or, like, I have this crazy idea, I want to build this weird thing. Like, how do I do that? You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so instead of applying for jobs or answering RFPs, I'm talking to folks to be like, how do I do this crazy, impossible project and try to work with them and figure that out, you know?

[B]

Yeah. I had a. My LinkedIn profile during. I guess I had completely given up on, like, a standard career path. So I had a shirtless pick on LinkedIn.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

It's kind of nice responses. Yeah. And I had. I had written my own skill sets in, and they were, like, kind of graphic sexual acts that I was trying to get people to endorse. I think they might control for that now. Yeah, my LinkedIn was crazy.

[A]

Josh should be my next. Should I do that, bro?

[B]

Go shirtless. You be. That's the power. That's for real. Shirtless. LinkedIn's a power move.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Josh, can you. I have a clip I want to show you. This is an architectural question. Can you pull that up? I saw this guy on it. He was talking about something specifically he did with his house. I kind of want to see your thoughts on this as an architect.

[A]

You bet.

[B]

Let me see here.

[A]

Is he sure?

[B]

Also, while Josh gets that, I. I noticed on one of the. One of the, I guess, organizations you're connected to, there's a thing called the Ellen DeGeneres Campus of Diane Fossey Guerrilla Fund.

[A]

It's a good name. It really rolls off the tongue.

[B]

What is that? Can you. That sounds completely unhinged. What is the Ellen DeGeneres Campus of Diane Fossey Guerrilla Fund?

[A]

Yeah. So this was.

[B]

Is that a real thing?

[A]

It's basically, yeah. I worked on this.

[B]

You worked on the Ellen DeGeneres Dian

[A]

Fossey gorilla Fund center of Care and in Trouble? Yeah, no, it's the. It's this. It's a center for the study and care of guerrilla scientists in Northern Rwanda.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Basically, like, where the remaining mountain gorillas live are in this incredible part of the country, and people go there from all over the world to see the mountain gorillas. And you trek up and you, you know, oh, here we go. No, no, I'm going to go with these gorillas. You track them. It's an incredible experience. And so Dian Fosse, which. I don't know if you ever saw Gorillas in the Mist when you were growing up.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Did you ever see the movie?

[B]

I didn't see it, but I know of it.

[A]

So that's a movie about Dian Fosse. Dian Fosse, in the 60s, moved to Rwanda. Then was also Rwanda. Sorry, was still Rwanda. And studied the gorillas and brought a lot of attention to them. And so her. And she was killed up there by poachers.

[B]

Dang.

[A]

And so this foundation that was set up in her honor continued for 50 years. And then they reached out to. To my team to see if we could help build a new campus for them.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

And I started working on it with them. And. And the first donor came in.

[B]

Ellen DeGeneres.

[A]

DeGeneres, who cares about animals, and was like, I'll give the, you know, lead gift. Actually, her. Her wife Portia gave the lead gift in her honor before Ellen knew. So it was sort of this thing. But, you know, naming rights came with the project.

[B]

That's pretty cool.

[A]

So. But it's.

[B]

What was this. Was this prior to her getting kind of skewered by the media for being nasty to her staff.

[A]

It was.

[B]

That was what was one of the weaker cancellations I saw. She was like, she's mean.

[A]

Mean. Yeah. I've been on her staff.

[B]

I've been on Ellen's side the whole time.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, she wants a tight ship. Yeah, it was. And she donated success. Donated to the girl.

[B]

Dude, people were on her ass.

[A]

It was right at that same time.

[B]

Was it really?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This was sort of her exit plan. You know, she was sort of leaving the show.

[B]

She was.

[A]

She was putting some into philanthropy. She was, you know, funding animal philanthropy and also.

[B]

Power move. I have a staff of crybabies. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna give $40 million to gorillas. Dude, shut up. I don't even care about you guys doing the gorilla Fun.

[A]

It's definitely an attempted cancellation. Yeah. But she survived it, I think, and

[B]

I think she's fine.

[A]

You know, she's doing all right.

[B]

I thought it was weak. I thought being. You can't, like, the. I don't know. I thought that was such a reach to be. Be like. Well, she's mean.

[A]

Like, okay, dude, you're getting into meanness and like, boss. Boss.

[B]

Yeah, we're all. None of us stand a chance here.

[A]

Like, you've never been mean before.

[B]

Falsy pants. Can you. This is. This is the architectural question I had. I. I actually had me thinking.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Starts to expand.

[A]

It does.

[B]

And at one point, you had a trap house. You gutted the whole house and put 15 stoves in the house.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

My vision was huge. I would like to see pictures of this, by the way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, my vision was huge.

[B]

Okay. 15 stoves, 4 pots each, 6 cookers, 11 people cooking at once. It was a whole operation. It was a whole operation. Definitely an operation. Now, I know you're not an engineer,

[A]

but sounds like a fire hazard.

[B]

Is that even feasible? Oh, is that even possible to have? Because I'm trying to figure out if he's capping. Is that possible to have? What do you say? Six stoves?

[A]

Fifteen stoves. Fifteen. So excuse me.

[B]

Is it possible to even do that in terms of, like, pulling the. In a. I would guess he was in St. Pete's Florida, IN, let's say, either a row home or a standalone house. Standalone house.

[A]

Is that what he was in?

[B]

I think so. I mean, if he was. He was saying he was in an impoverished neighborhood in St. Pete's Florida. I don't think you could even put 16 stoves. I'm not trying to knock the man's trap, but it's like, I don't know. Is that possible?

[A]

I mean, I guess.

[B]

If you had to design a trap, how would you. How would you go about putting the 16 stoves?

[A]

I do eight first. I do all. Dude, 18 stoves.

[B]

So you think it's feasible?

[A]

I mean, I guess in a standard house, you know, if you have a vision.

[B]

True.

[A]

You have a big, huge vision. That's what I always say. You know, you can find a way.

[B]

Because people are trying to say he's capping. So I was like, I don't know, it sounds kind of like Cat, but I figured I'd. I'd ask an expert.

[A]

I'm glad you asked me. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do you think he could act genuinely? Do you think he could have put.

[A]

I just am worried about the fire hazard. But, you know, he's got. Does he have 16 hoods? You know, what's the deal? Does he have.

[B]

Doubtful.

[A]

What's his airflow strategy? Should be good.

[B]

They're cooking crack. I don't know if you put the context. They're cooking crack, so the airflow should be good.

[A]

It should be very nice.

[B]

I didn't know. You know, I always love to see a turned up white boy, but I didn't know. I was like, this guy might be full of. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you for letting me know.

[B]

Well, hey, so the book's great. Before you go, we always have our premium subscribers. They write in a question. Would you mind reading it and then we could discuss the question?

[A]

Sure. Totally.

[B]

It's just random.

[A]

It's my own trap. You read the.

[B]

Okay, we're talking about the trap. It's not a trap. It's just. It's. They send us questions, the producers select, you grab literally at random.

[A]

This is the premium subscriber question. I'm a 47 year old married cishet male. My wife is 52 and for the better half of her life was a strict lesbian. Gold star. Good question. We met around the time she was going through menopause. We were working together at Price Warehouse Cooper, one of the big four accounting firms. We started on the same team as professional equals. Mind you, We've been working together for five years and she first struck me as being incredibly masc, which is fine for me. I have great respect for mask ladies, especially how they grind in their workplace, but can still have a good time. That's a nice reflection.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was actually Joe from Minneapolis. I forgot to put that in there.

[A]

I've seen it time and time again. But a few years into our professional queen, she underwent something of a transformation from mask to mature femme. Something I learned later was due to a shift in her hormonal profile due to menopause, which I of course mentioned earlier. It was around this time that I Started developing feelings for her, desiring to be more than just professional teammates. And so I asked her to coffee. One thing led to another, and now we're married. My second, her third, but obviously first with a man. I'm the only man she's ever been with, and she's always filled the role of the more masculine, leaning partner out of all her lesbian relationships. This is something we've done. This is good. I get the architectural substance to this.

[B]

Oh, it's random. It's random.

[A]

It's random.

[B]

They don't know who the guest is

[A]

going to be, of course. You want me to finish this?

[B]

Please.

[A]

Okay. Thanks. This is something we've dealt with in couples counseling for almost a year. Getting something of a resolution. Basically, I had to step up and be more assertive, which I learned how to do after taking several online courses. I'm excited about the, like, Internet search that's going to happen after this. Long story short, things are going really well. Until just the other night, we were arguing about which movie to watch, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, my wife struck me a stiff backhand across the side of my face. I just stood in shock, covering my cheek that was warm from the slap. I cried. And then she cried. That's very nice. We hugged as she apologized profusely, telling me how domestic violence is statistically higher in the lesbian scene. Highest, actually, out of all other pairing types. Interesting. I wonder where the data is from. I guess my question is, do I forgive her and move on, or is this kind of an assault of Unforgivable?

[B]

That's the question.

[A]

That's a good question. What do you think of that?

[B]

I think it's unforgivable, man. I mean, I would meet her where she is, honestly. But I don't know.

[A]

I'm curious what kind of space they were in. Were they on the couch? Like, was the home toxic? Was it a toxic home?

[B]

I don't know. I mean, I. I don't know. They're in. They're in counseling, so, yeah, it seems

[A]

like they had help, but it's a good question. I'll have to, like, think about it.

[B]

I mean, they're. They're, you know, they're up there in terms of professionals. They're 50. 50. 40.

[A]

So it was his third, her fourth. Is that what it was? Her fourth?

[B]

The marriage? I don't know.

[A]

Second? Third? Yeah.

[B]

So that I actually have heard that it is statistically higher in the lesbian community. Domestic violence is the highest in terms in the lesbian community.

[A]

Is that right?

[B]

That's what I've heard that.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know either. But I've heard that we can. We can verify that.

[A]

Thanks for letting me read that. I'm back to the theater of the TED Talk, given a script.

[B]

So, no, no advice for him.

[A]

I mean, I think, you know, he should follow his heart as he has.

[B]

I say forgive.

[A]

Honestly, you know, I said we all get into difficult positions.

[B]

True. I say forgive.

[A]

It's actually bisexual women is what AI

[B]

says have the highest.

[A]

AI knows.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, sorry to end on a sour note.

[A]

No, I mean, I just have to do.

[B]

They're the premium subscribers. They get to submit questions.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm happy to. I'm happy to give them advice. You know, hopefully they're listening. Maybe, you know, maybe what they should do, they should think about the kind of setting of their house, you know?

[B]

True.

[A]

Maybe they need a new couch or something. Maybe they need 15 stoves or something like that.

[B]

Well, hey, thank you so much. That was a blast.

[A]

Hey, thank you. Thank you.

[B]

And one more time, the book our world in 10 buildings.

[A]

Yeah, the book's our world in 10 buildings.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

It's how architecture defines who we are and how we live. And I hope you pick it up. It's about everyday spaces. It's not about the 10 buildings you want to visit. It's about how the spaces around you might improve our lives a little bit better, a little bit more. And I hope you like it. And thank you for having me on this show. Thank you.

[B]

Appreciate you watch new episodes of Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast on Spotify.

[A]

Do.