A Frank Discussion About Vendors That Charge Too Much

Summary

Maximum Lawyer Podcast: A Frank Discussion About Vendors That Charge Too Much

Release Date: February 25, 2025
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Description: Are you running or starting your own law firm? This is your podcast.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux is joined by Becca Eberhart, CEO at Maximum Lawyer, for an impromptu discussion in Scottsdale. Originally scheduled to feature a guest for the upcoming Q1 mastermind, unforeseen circumstances led to a spontaneous conversation focusing on a pressing issue within the legal industry: vendors charging exorbitant fees and failing to deliver promised services.

Timestamp: [01:29]

2. The Genesis of the Conversation

Becca introduces the topic by referencing a guild member's post that resonated deeply within the Maximum Lawyer community. The post details a common frustration among law firm owners: engaging vendors who fail to meet specified requirements after payment, leading to wasted time and resources.

Becca Eberhart:
"[03:31] 'Does this happen to anyone else?...I ultimately usually just abandon what I'm doing and what I had already paid for.'"

3. Shared Frustrations with Vendor Practices

Tyson echoes Becca's sentiments, highlighting his own experiences with vendors who demanded substantial upfront payments but failed to deliver as promised. This recurring issue not only affects financial aspects but also erodes trust between law firms and service providers.

Tyson Mutrux:
"[04:03] 'I've had frustrations with vendors. I mean, like paid tens of thousands of dollars upfront and then not get the things that they say that they're going to give.'"

Becca emphasizes that such practices are not isolated incidents but rather widespread issues that the community frequently encounters.

Becca Eberhart:
"[04:56] 'And I believe that good customer service goes a long way. And I think that I see a lot in this industry, meaning vendors that serve law firm owners, trapping them into contracts as a way to create retention in their own business.'"

4. The Perception of Law Firms as Difficult Clients

A pivotal discussion emerges around the notion that law firms might be perceived as demanding or difficult clients. Tyson contemplates whether the stringent expectations of legal entrepreneurs contribute to the challenging vendor relationships.

Tyson Mutrux:
"[08:25] 'Maybe we just expect them to deliver what they say they're going to deliver. And maybe that's what it is.'"

Becca counters this by sharing her observations that legal entrepreneurs are distinct from traditional lawyers, often being more entrepreneurial and demanding, yet deserving of exceptional service.

Becca Eberhart:
"[09:08] 'No... I identify them as legal entrepreneurs where I think that other people... just think of them as lawyers. And I think that those are two different people.'"

5. The Impact of Contract Models on Vendor Relationships

The conversation delves into the prevalence of long-term contracts in the legal industry. Becca expresses frustration over vendors' reluctance to adopt more flexible models, such as month-to-month agreements, which can foster better accountability and customer satisfaction.

Becca Eberhart:
"[18:54] 'I truly feel like they're behind. I feel like the vendors that serve law firm owners are behind in not switching to this model and they're just hanging on for dear life to the contract model.'"

Tyson adds that some legal services, like legal research platforms, still adhere to outdated contract models, making it difficult for firms to switch providers without significant commitments.

Tyson Mutrux:
"[19:29] 'I think the whole idea was to buy it and then burn to the ground so that they have one less competitor.'"

6. Exploring Alternative Solutions: The Zoho Example

A notable part of the discussion revolves around Tyson's shift from traditional, lawyer-targeted software solutions to more versatile platforms like Zoho. He contrasts Zoho with industry-specific tools like Clio, highlighting Zoho's cost-effectiveness and comprehensive features despite not being exclusively marketed to legal professionals.

Tyson Mutrux:
"[13:17] 'Look at Zoho's pricing versus let's say any other case management system on the market... Zoho offers way more than what Clio does... they can get away with charging lawyers more money.'"

Becca questions how law firm owners can confidently choose non-specialized services, but Tyson explains that necessity and cost-effectiveness often drive such decisions.

Becca Eberhart:
"[15:26] 'When you decided to go with Zoho, is this the first time that you've gone with like a software that wasn't marketed specifically to you?'"

Tyson Mutrux:
"[15:26] 'I stumbled on it... It was just kind of stumbled on it.'"

7. Negotiation Tactics and Empowering Law Firms

One of the most insightful segments revolves around effective negotiation strategies with vendors. Becca and Tyson share personal anecdotes illustrating the power of prepared negotiation and the importance of setting clear terms from the outset.

Becca Eberhart:
"[24:12] 'Know that you're committing the time it takes to do the communications and figure out what works best for you.'"

Tyson Mutrux:
"[25:15] 'You write the check out in advance... understanding that you can actually say no, not paying that and be willing to walk.'"

Becca adds practical advice, emphasizing that while not all situations warrant negotiation, being proactive can lead to substantial savings and better service terms.

Becca Eberhart:
"[23:48] 'Any tips for people dealing with vendors?... How often do you think that law firm owners like you are even negotiating?'"

8. The Path Forward: Building Accountability and Changing Norms

The episode concludes with both hosts expressing a strong commitment to fostering change within the industry. Becca teases a forthcoming solution aimed at enhancing accountability among vendors, signaling a proactive approach to tackling the outlined challenges.

Becca Eberhart:
"[21:24] 'We have a solution that's going to help with this issue that does not exist yet.'"

Tyson shares his optimism about the new initiative, believing it will significantly reduce the prevalence of vendor failures and improve overall service quality for law firms.

Tyson Mutrux:
"[23:20] 'And I think that the thing, the idea that you came up is going to make that less likely in the future.'"

9. Final Thoughts and Empowerment

Both Tyson and Becca emphasize the importance of perseverance and advocacy in transforming vendor relationships. They encourage law firm owners to take control, demand better services, and not settle for inadequate offerings.

Becca Eberhart:
"[21:18] 'And I think that we, meaning you, you guys as business owners, like you actually have to take the action on it, question it, ask for a better deal.'"

Tyson Mutrux:
"[28:09] 'And what's the worst thing that's going to happen? You're going to say no.'"

Conclusion

This episode of Maximum Lawyer provides a candid exploration of the challenges law firms face with vendors, offering both personal experiences and strategic advice. By highlighting the need for better negotiation, more flexible contract models, and increased accountability, Tyson and Becca aim to empower legal entrepreneurs to foster more transparent and mutually beneficial relationships with their service providers. The discussion underscores the importance of proactive measures and community-driven solutions in overcoming systemic industry issues.

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Note: For more insights and updates, consider tuning into future episodes of Maximum Lawyer or joining the upcoming Q1 mastermind event.

Transcript

[Becca Eberhart]

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[Tyson Mutrix]

This is maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

[Becca Eberhart]

Hey, everybody, this is Becca Eberhart, CEO at Maximum Lawyer. And today I am here in Scottsdale with Tyson and we are gearing up for the Q1 mastermind here. And today is Wednesday, so we're doing a batch recording of podcasts before the Mastermind. And we had a guest that had to cancel last minute, so we're going to do a little impromptu episode here now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it's exciting. I was really excited about that guest. But this is fun because we've not. I've not gotten you on camera, like, recording a podcast yet. Right. At all.

[Becca Eberhart]

I mean, back in the beginning, we did virtual.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, yeah, we did that a long time ago.

[Becca Eberhart]

Years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I had to almost kick you or like drag you kicking and screaming to do this.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

A little bit.

[Becca Eberhart]

I had other really great ideas.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You did?

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Didn't work out.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Unfortunately, the guest, she was not. She's not well. Well, she did the right thing and she. But we'll be able to make that one up. But this is. This is gonna be good. Your idea for this is fantastic.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So let's. Let's tell the people what it's about.

[Becca Eberhart]

Okay. So recently we had a post that sparked some conversation within the guild and then also within the team at maximum layer two. So I'm going to read what the initial post was that sparked this conversation, and then we can kind of dive into our thoughts on it. So this guild member said, does this happen to anyone else? I reach out to a vendor to build something, set something up for me. It could be a marketing campaign, a software build out, et cetera. And then he says, hey, I need to do X, Y and Z, because here are my goals. Can you do this? And the vendor will say, sure, we can do it. Here's an estimate. He says, cool, here's the money. A month later, the vendor will demo the solution. And he says, okay, but what about X, Y and Z that I had mentioned before? The vendor says, yeah, our solutions can't do that. Not possible with our tech or the restrictions in place. And then he says he's stewing silently about spending time and money on something that doesn't do what he needed. And he says that this has happened a few times and he ultimately usually just abandons what he's doing and what he had already paid for.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, and that had some. Had some interesting comments. I. I covered it on the guild morning show last Saturday. I'm going to be a little nicer to the vendors that I mentioned in the guild. I won't mention them here, but my frustration is the same because I've had frustrations with vendors. I mean, like, paid tens of thousands of dollars upfront and then not get the things that they say that they're going to give. Like, you've had some experience, like, outside of the legal industry. Like, have you seen anything like this?

[Becca Eberhart]

Not this often, no. Which is what floors me. And when I first read this post, I did send you quite a few voice messages and we had kind of.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Talked back and forth, which I played on the. The. Which are we going to do that for the listeners for? This is great.

[Becca Eberhart]

You know what? Why not? Actually, that might be better.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Becca Eberhart]

Instead of me summarizing, we're just going to. We're going to cut in my voice message into this so that you guys can hear my in the moment feelings. I was pretty riled up. And I genuinely, I genuinely care about our business owners in the guild. And, and the fact that this is happening to multiple of them on multiple occasions. It's happened to you. I just think that that's not something that we should all stand for. And then now we're at a point where what can we do about it? We, meaning maximum lawyer. But also as an industry in general, I don't think it's something that can continue, and we need to figure out how to fix that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. I'm also pretty worked up about this topic. Mostly because when I saw the post in the guild that I had sent you and that a bunch of people had commented on, I immediately was, like, irritated for everyone. Everyone commenting on there. Like, in my head, I just had that there's just no reason that a business owner doing business with another business owner should ever be treated like that, lied to like that, pay for things that they're actually never going to get. And the person knew that from the get go. I'm like, actually, like, I don't know, flabbergasted by the whole thing. So initially I was like, okay, what can we do for our people about this topic? And as of yesterday, I was thinking, like, do we do a train on, like, negotiation? Do we figure out, like, a script where our people are like, you know.

[Becca Eberhart]

Here'S what you're going to offer me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Here'S how we're going to meet in the middle. I'm not giving you all of the money up front, etc.

[Becca Eberhart]

Etc.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm like, there has to be something our people can do. You know, even I think it was said, like, he sued multiple people to get his money back.

[Becca Eberhart]

When this has happened, it shouldn't have.

[Unknown]

To go that far.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Not in B2B.

Yeah. So what was funny is you were worked up. It was like, really worked up. And it was a barrage of voice memos.

[Becca Eberhart]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But you had also brought up something, I don't know, 20 minutes ago from, like, our meeting notes, which is funny because did you remember that?

[Becca Eberhart]

I did.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Becca Eberhart]

That's how much I actually care about this topic. And I think that it's that wrong. And I think that it comes up this often. So when I was thinking of this topic, I also remembered in the notes for future episodes, I had written this down. And this has to come from like, over a year ago. So I do find it ironic how much this topic just keeps coming back up. And so. So these were just generalized notes. I had wrote that vendors and the products and customer service that they offer law firms, why does it seem so bad? What can we do about it? You had said, so this was on a team call and I had made notes on it. Tyson had said that law firm owners have to make the worst clients. And I had a instant reaction to your comment because I actually thought the complete opposite. And I told you and Jim, I had said that I had actually never seen vendors see seem to put in so little effort to retain customers. And I believe that good customer service goes a long way. And I think that I see a lot in this industry, meaning vendors that serve law firm owners, trapping them into contracts as a way to create retention in their own business. And I think that we're at a time where retention is earned by providing exceptional products and services. And that's the only contract that should exist.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure. If. And I will say I must. I might be wrong about it. I mean, I was. I think from. It's from my perspective as a lawyer that we. We ask a bunch of questions. Like, we, like, we also have like the. I just. In part of it, I imagine some lawyers be like, well, I'll just sue you. Like, you know, like, like, you know what I mean? Like that kind of a thing where we've got to be the type of client that or customer that is like a little bit more demanding. It's just. It's gotta be. And maybe I'm wrong about that.

[Becca Eberhart]

Okay, so how is this working out then? You feel like you are a customer who is more demanding and we're seeing our people get a lesser service.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Becca Eberhart]

How can both things be true at the same time?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think what it is is that I think. And you know what? Maybe we don't expect more. Maybe we just expect them to deliver what they say they're going to deliver. And maybe that's what it is. Maybe that's what bothered me so much about it. And then maybe it may be a history of us getting burned or not us, but like generally lawyers getting burned by it. That maybe that is why. Maybe I've been brainwashed to think that we're just difficult clients. And maybe we're not. I don't know. Maybe we're not. You have now how many years experience with the Guild? How long?

[Becca Eberhart]

Well, we launched that in 2020.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so 20. So four years.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You've dealt with a bunch of lawyers.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you find like my, my thinking was that maybe that we are just lawyers, we're difficult to deal with. Have you found that?

[Becca Eberhart]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, well then, then. Or maybe the. The guild just maybe it's special breed. I don't know. And I do find that they kind of are.

[Becca Eberhart]

They think they are different really in the way that they are. I feel like. And I don't know if they use this terminology themselves, but I identify them as legal entrepreneurs where I think that other people, maybe even the people who target them, just think of them as lawyers. And I think that those are Two different people.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think we should start using legal entrepreneurs. I like that.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah, I love it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so we're not. We're not gonna use law firm owners, legal entrepreneurs.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. This is done. This is an exclusive. Okay, good. So, I mean, maybe I'm wrong with that. When I said that is one of those things. Like, maybe. Who knows what my mindset was at the time. I will say, when I said that, that was whenever I was dealing with that one vendor that I had paid a lot of money up front that had told us, like, we sat and I talked about this in the guild show. So if anyone that's in the guild, you can skip forward about 30 seconds. But we sat. Kashif and I, we sat and talked to them. We went through all of our requirements. We not only sat with their salespeople because we ran it by the salespeople. They said, well, we need to talk to the dev department. And then we sat down with the dev department and we went through everything, told them all of our specifications. We were very clear about it. And then we get. So we pay them up front and like, upfront. That's a mistake. From now on, I will not do that. I'm not going to pay you for an entire year up front. That's just a no. That was a bad move. But I got a better deal. That's why I did it. But. And then, then they come to us a month later and say, we can't do any of this stuff and we're not giving your money back. It's like, okay. And I said who it was. If you want to join the guild, you'd find out who I'm talking about. But I'm not going to. I won't go that far. It's very frustrating. And I. The person that posted this, we're not going to mention who posted it, but, like, it is a common. It seems to be a common thing based on what comments we get in the big group.

[Becca Eberhart]

There were a lot of comments on this post in the guild that I had just read. And they were all, yes, I have been through that. Yes, I've had the same thing. Yes, I have done that multiple times. Someone said that they have sued to get their money back on numerous occasions. And I, like I said, I just. There, there has to be something different here. I do. You answered a question that I was going to ask. I was actually going to ask you because other members are saying this to wire you guys paying so much upfront and. But you had said that what they're doing is they're offering you a better deal. So is that a situation where they're saying, hey, you can pay us month to month, it would have been X amount or you can pay us for the first year and we're giving you a 10% discount. Is that what happened?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't, I don't think so. With that company. I actually don't think there was ever the option of paying month to month. There could be a variety of reasons. They may offer a month to month option. I'm sure actually know that, you know, they come. They probably do.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But I do know based on what other people pay in that service per month, that or for the year that they pay, that I did get a much better deal. I mean I got, I got a much better deal. And it could have been about my, because of my position with Maxwell too. I don't know. But I know I got a pretty good deal generally.

[Becca Eberhart]

But it theoretically would have been a good deal.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, yeah.

[Becca Eberhart]

And then it ultimately was just.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And undoubtedly I could obviously sue to get that money back. I'm. I don't, I just don't have, I just don't have the, the bandwidth for that. I just don't really care that much about it to do that. So. Yeah.

[Becca Eberhart]

Have you ever thought through the mindset of these other business owners who are vendors serving legal entrepreneurs where it's a lot harder to get the new sale? Right. We all know that in any business it doesn't matter what it is. So why do you think they put so much time and effort into just getting that first sale instead of just getting someone in and then wowing them and keeping them. And then they could have got. If you would have paid them, the one time fee was their ongoing fees that you would have been paying them.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so to your first point, Yeah. I think they do it because they charge us so much more than they would a non lawyer. Like if this were, I mean you can use. I'll use.

[Becca Eberhart]

Do they serve non lawyers as well or do they just know you the ideal client?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think that we're the ideal client and they can get away with it because we, they know we'll pay it. I'll take, I'll use. Let's use Zoho as an example.

[Becca Eberhart]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Look at Zoho's pricing versus let's say any other case management system on the market. I'll use Clio to pick on Clio because they're the biggest. Not that Clio has a bad product. I'm just saying you compare the two, I will tell you Zoho, what they offer, it is way more, they way offer way more than what Clio does when it comes to their product. But they're a fraction of what Clio charges and it's because they can get away with charging lawyers more money.

[Becca Eberhart]

And Zoho does not advertise just to got it. So that's the difference there.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And their CEO is someone that wants to make it available to the masses. And that's part of the reason why they want to, they really believe in small businesses, they really want to take care of them and that's why they do it. Now there is a, there is a cost to that and I was talking to Scott Rose about this the other day. There is a cost because with Zoho, when they roll out a new feature sometimes or if they roll out a new software, there is kind of an understanding that there is, you're, you're pretty much in beta testing even though they released it and they will improve it and they'll get it to a really great product. But sometimes it does, there is some lag time when it comes to that. So that, that's sort of the trade off. But honestly I would rather have that than getting gouged all the freaking time when it comes to the, the monthly cost. And like that's across the board. That's on everything. That's books. Like, and I won't pick on any of the books, but you name the book that was written by a lawyer on like trial skills or anything. Yeah, it's under 50 bucks, you know what I mean? Like if it's a non Lawyer, that's a 20$30 book, things like that.

[Becca Eberhart]

Okay, when you decided to go with Zoho, is this the first time that you've gone with like a software that wasn't marketed specifically to you? How did you find a software? I feel like our people typically are looking for softwares, services, different things that are marketed directly to them and only, you know, specialized because then they'll feel like, you know, they specialize in us, they know us better, they're going to serve us better. But you found something that wasn't targeted to you and you were comfortable enough to commit to it even though you knew it wasn't specific to your industry.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'd say three things. So one is we, we met with a couple of companies about building, building something. We had all of our things that we needed and we got halfway through the list of needs and the first vendor said they stopped me there I. I'm glad they did. They said, listen, the features that you want right now. And by the way, like, we were halfway. Like, it was not. The list was pretty long. We're about. About250,000 bucks. Should we keep talking or should we kind of stop? And I said, I think we should stop because I wasn't willing to put the that much money into a product that I wasn't going to sell. Like, this wasn't something I was going to, you know. So I was like, okay. So we did a couple times the. It was cost prohibitive. And then I was. Then I started searching for options and I was just. I didn't look for like, case management systems. I just looked for. I think I was just like searching for like, CRMs just to see what would come up and maybe even project management management softwares, all that. I don't remember what I Googled exactly, but I stumbled on Zoho. I had heard about Zoho CRM. I had heard about Zoho Social. Social. But I didn't. I never looked into them. And then I. So I was looking to it and I happened to mention it to Kelsey Bratcher. Kelsey said, you're kidding me. I said, no. He goes, well, I've always thought like, Zoho is amazing and I would love to build a. Like, like, like one of my things that he's always wanted to do was like, he wanted to build a company on Zoho because it's like, it's a great platform. Not. This is not a podcast about Zoho. Not at all. We don't get paid by Zoho. There's no affiliate marketing, nothing like that. But I just, I was like, oh, that's fat. So then I was like, okay, now I'm like gonna really dig into it. And they offer a ton. It's to. They. Now you got to know when you get into Zoho, it's like there's so much to it that you have to not try to dive into everything at one time. You pick one area, but that's another story. So that's. That's how I found it. It was. I mean, just kind of stumbled on it.

[Becca Eberhart]

Do you feel like you're more open now when looking for services to finding companies that aren't specifically advertising that they're helping law firms, or do you feel more comfortable still going with the companies that advertise to you specifically?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm okay with outside. I know that Jim and I, we. One of our things that we talked about was like picking something specifically for lawyers. And my opinions change on that. I think that that opinion was shaped off of our experience with infusionsoft, which we really liked infusionsoft but. But because it wasn't specifically made for lawyers. It did, I think it did kind of. It made it difficult at times to make it work. And they were. There were some limitations with infusionsoft and then the whole way infusionsoft went and changed their name and there's a lot of mistakes that they'd made, but I think it was colored by that. That's what it was.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah. Do you wanna talk about contracts a little bit? Dive into that a little bit more?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. What do you wanna know about it? I do have thoughts, but I wanna know what you, what your thoughts are.

[Becca Eberhart]

Mine were more general. I was just going to. Obviously we bring this up a lot. A company that we work with a lot with a lot of our events is rise up and they're known for not having any contracts. And I think that's worked out really well in our community for them. And I'm just wondering again, it does relate to what we talked about earlier, but why aren't more companies going this way? I truly feel like they're behind. I feel like the vendors that serve law firm owners are behind in not switching to this model and they're just hanging on for dear life to the contract model, acting like it's an industry norm and I don't think it needs to be.

[Tyson Mutrix]

There will be a lot of pushback in the legal industry before it does shift because you have a company like Case Text, which I loved it was purchased by one of the big companies, legal research companies. They've ruined that product. And they are a yearly contract or two, three year. I think we got contacted by them and they, they, they're notorious for sending emails out and it was like, you know, you can get this rate for two years, you can get this rate for three year contract and so they will push back. I was talking to someone. Their thinking is is that the whole idea was to buy it and then burn to the ground so that they have one less competitor.

[Becca Eberhart]

That's what happened with Casetext is what you're saying.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, and I do agree that happens. I tend to agree with them. It's not the product that it was, it was good. But they, they had specifically like this. The legal research part of it's the same. It's the co counsel, the AI component that they've ruined because they have to, you now have to Link it to Westlaw and all that. I guess I mentioned the company. So now, whatever. But that is where it is. It's, it's, it's a bit frustrating. So there will be pushback. The reason, I think it's just been a standard norm because we were willing to do it and they're like, if you use the legal research companies, like if you. As an example, Westlaw and, and LexisNexis were the two in the game. That was it. There was, there were others, but there were really no others. Those were the two.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And if you wanted to do legal research, you went through one of those two.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah, we use Lexus at the sheriff's office. It's the only one that we used.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. So you like, you're, you're, you're really limited to those. And like from a practical standpoint, there are some others that are like, okay, but if you really want to be able to do legit legal research, that's what you do. Now AI has changed that quite a bit which, that will soften it quite a bit. Like Paxton I again, no sponsorship, nothing like that. They're great. Like it's, it is better than co counsel was which is good. So I'm thankful to a certain point. But they're, they're month to month. They are not a long term contract. Their fees are pretty reasonable. So I just think it's something that we've been so used to doing for so long and putting up with it that, that I think is part of it.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah. I think my thoughts on this are I think that for our people, I think it is time to create that resistance. And I think that we, meaning you, you guys as business owners, like you actually have to take the action on it, question it, ask for a better deal. I think that that's what's going to have to happen to change it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And you had, you had a really good idea that came from this conversation which we can't talk about yet. So we got to kind of tiptoe around this.

[Becca Eberhart]

Let's do that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But you, I mean you do have a great solution to this that we're working on.

[Becca Eberhart]

We have a solution that's going to help with this issue that does not exist yet.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No.

[Becca Eberhart]

In this industry.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No. Which is pretty cool. And it's, it's one of those things like I told you is like one of the most, I don't know if it was the most exciting or. It's either the most exciting or one of the most exciting things that we, we've talked about.

[Becca Eberhart]

I agree.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it's gonna be pretty cool.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. So I guess, have you seen, I'm guessing like doctors and accountants, they probably get gouged too to a certain point.

[Becca Eberhart]

Oh, absolutely. I also think now that we're comparing to those two other industries too. I think another thing is time. I think that they use that people want to get the fix and get it fast. And instead of taking the time to really think through the contracts or the, what the monthly cost is, they're like, if you're claiming you could solve my problem, let's just do that and do it today. Maybe we just need to slow down a little bit because I envision doctors being the same way.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Becca Eberhart]

Very, very busy people and not enough time to really vet what they're signing up for.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I do think that there are times where you have to pay a little bit more upfront. I do think that that is, I'll use like SEO companies where you're dealing with a personal injury firm which it's a highly competitive market where they've got to do a bunch of build out out front. Or let's see, it's even a software company like Yoshirs, Yossiers. You got to pay, you know, a thousand or two, two thousand upfront because they have to do a build out for your specific software for requesting medical records. I'm 100% okay with something like that. That is I had no problem whatsoever paying something like that because there's some sort of, they've on their end had to, you know, expend some sort of resource, whether that's time or money, whatever it may be. But I'm really talking about like we're talking about the ones that are like, they tell you they're going to do something, you pay them for that thing and then they don't deliver on it. That is a completely different thing.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I think that the thing, the idea that you came up is going to, it's going to make that less likely in the future.

[Becca Eberhart]

I completely agree. It's definitely going to create a lot more accountability and I'm very excited for it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I like that. Any tips for. Because you are, I will say you're pretty good about like negotiating with vendors and stuff. Any tips for people that for like dealing with vendors? I think that would be pretty helpful.

[Becca Eberhart]

I mean the thing that I just mentioned with time is that you just have to know that you're committing the time it takes to do the communications and figure out what works best for you. I Think that's another thing, though. How often do you think that law firm owners like you are even negotiating? Or do you think that they're told, this is our package and this is our price and this is what you can have it for? Do you think they're even asking the questions?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't. So knowing that they have that ability is. I think that's. Now, I was lucky enough to be in a position early on where I worked for a firm where I don't know why he let me do this. I have zero idea. But it was great because he let me sit in the room with some of these negotiations, and it was. He was really good at it. About, like, they would sit and, like, I would blush. Like, the numbers he would propose versus, like, what they said, that they were charging for it.

[Becca Eberhart]

And, like, that's my style. Yeah, this a lot.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I was like, wow, you can do this. Like, I didn't know that growing up. I'm being like, wow, this is a great lesson. Like, I remember there's a time where it comes to billboards. So this is. I work for a volume firm, and they had, you know, they. All these contracts for billboards and stuff. And so they come in. It was time they had some new signs available, is what it was. So I already sat in a couple meetings, and this one, he wanted me to go in and said, tell them what he was willing to pay.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I. And he had the check written out. That was another little trick, too. You write the check out in advance.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so I met with the guy, and he's like, we can't do that. And I was thinking, like, okay. And so I went and told my boss, and he. He comes in, and I'm talking. It's like a fraction of what. Yeah, it was. But he was willing to pay the full year up front, which I thought that was another good lesson.

[Becca Eberhart]

At his price.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Exact. At his price, Which I thought was another good lesson.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And he goes. So he comes in and he just says. And because I think that the guy thought that I was just trying to. I was trying to get the firm better deal, but I really didn't have final authority. And he. So boss comes in and says, oh, this is what we're paying. And I mean, otherwise, we're not. We're not paying anything. The guy. The guy. Like, within seconds, okay, we'll do it. I'm thinking, like. Like, okay, now I. I understand this game a little bit more. So, yeah, I think that is important, understanding that you can actually Say no, not paying that and be willing to walk. Like, that's something I've seen. You're willing to walk.

[Becca Eberhart]

There are other options.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. You can walk no matter how much you want it. You're like.

[Becca Eberhart]

And that's from a business standpoint and from a consumer standpoint, it doesn't matter if this would be more convenient or faster. You can always walk. And there' another option.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm assuming you do this in your personal life.

[Becca Eberhart]

I do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How much? How does Jeremy feel about this?

[Becca Eberhart]

Great.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, okay.

[Becca Eberhart]

I. I save us money.

[Unknown]

How?

[Becca Eberhart]

That's.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Does he ever blush whenever you're like, offering some far lesser.

[Becca Eberhart]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown]

So.

[Becca Eberhart]

No, I'm not. I should probably clarify here. And this, this does have to do more with things that we pay recurring services to. I want to be very clear. I love like shopping local things like this. I'm never walking into my local coffee. Coffee shop and asking for a discount on like my drink or anything like that. I think that they deserve the price that they're asking for.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you don't do that?

[Becca Eberhart]

No, absolutely not.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't either. Okay, good.

[Becca Eberhart]

This is actually things that you pay for on a recurring basis like Internet streaming services, the satellite radio and vehicles. All of those things are negotiable. And these companies are just so big that I think that it's a very valid ask and 9 times out of 10, they're going to do something for you. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Especially satellite radio. I mean, Jesus. Like, we like. Yeah, that number's never like set in stone. Like, that's always negotiable.

[Becca Eberhart]

I can't believe what they attempt to charge and. But a lot of people do. They're like, that's the number. So sure thing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a good, It's a good list.

[Becca Eberhart]

On the other side, negotiated your Sirius XM subscription. I will tell you, I am paying 25% of what you are paying.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yep.

[Becca Eberhart]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean, at most. It is kind of crazy with that. It's good lesson on the other side for lawyers. Like, like actually, like, ask for more people. You might end up. I mean, if you want to get into that game of negotiating, that's fine too. Like, we don't, like, we just don't want to play that game. But we do. Our fees are a little bit higher than most injury firms because we like our bottoms 35%, not a third. So we. But like, it is a good lesson though. Like, ask for it and if you have to adjust it, then adjust it. But I think that is good. It's a really good lesson. And what's the worst thing that's going to happen? You're going to. They're going to say no.

[Becca Eberhart]

Correct.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's it.

[Becca Eberhart]

That's it.

[Unknown]

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