Behind the Firm: A Candid Conversation with Tyson and Amy

Summary

Maximum Lawyer Podcast: “Behind the Firm: A Candid Conversation with Tyson and Amy”

Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Amy Mutrux

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Episode Overview

In this special “Behind the Firm” episode, Tyson Mutrux sits down with his wife and law firm partner, Amy Mutrux, for a candid discussion about working together in marriage and business. They explore evolving roles, overcoming challenges, and cultivating a strong firm culture. Key themes include personal growth, balancing family and work, building a supportive team, and redefining traditional business roles. This insightful conversation offers a window into the realities—joys and struggles—of managing a thriving law firm as a couple.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shared Success and Personal Growth

• Tyson opens with a Howard Schultz quote: “Success is best when it’s shared” ([01:30]).
• Amy wholeheartedly agrees:

  “I myself have grown in the process. So I just think it’s been… beautiful.” — Amy ([01:57])

• They reflect on how their personal achievements and firm growth are intimately tied.
• Amy discusses her career shift from journalism to law firm management and has no regrets about her path:

  “A lot of people go to school and they think that they might want to do one thing, and then they’re gonna turn around and want to try something else... I don’t regret going. I loved it. Being on camera is not my favorite… but talking to people, stories, like, I love that. Everybody has a story.” — Amy ([03:22])

2. Marriage, Trust, and Teamwork

• Tyson and Amy describe significant growth in both their marriage and as business partners.
• They highlight “trust” as the foundation for their strong partnership:

  “I just think that when you’re around someone long enough… just years of understanding and communicating and trusting has a lot to do with that.” — Amy ([06:19])

• Both cite the “75 Hard” challenge as a turning point, deepening their teamwork and accountability:

  “We had to rely on each other a lot and motivate each other.” — Amy ([07:26])

• Honest talk about motivating (and being motivated by) your partner:

  “I do think you can motivate someone… but they have to want to be motivated too.” — Tyson ([08:10])

3. Balancing Work and Marriage Boundaries

• The couple wrestles with integrating work and home, particularly with “work talk in bed”—and how to find healthy boundaries.

  “One of the big issues we had was talking about work in bed.” — Tyson ([16:42])

• Communication and scheduled date nights keep their connection strong:

  “Our weekly date night… it just gives us time to talk and communicate, eat food maybe our kids don’t want to eat… just, I don’t know.” — Amy ([19:40])

• Their children even expect Thursday date nights, reinforcing family routine and stability.

4. Amy’s Journey at the Firm

• Amy describes her early days as “the lone wolf” handling marketing—isolated but driven ([11:43]).
• Her confidence grew as the firm’s results improved and colleagues sought her expertise.
• Tyson and Amy candidly discuss early adjustment struggles—and how their communication styles sometimes clashed:

  “The way I remember it was that you didn’t necessarily like to take instruction from me at all. You wanted to do your own thing.” — Tyson ([13:48])

• They touch on constructive feedback, tone in communication, and the unique challenge of working with a spouse.

5. Marriage Affecting the Firm—And Vice Versa

• They discuss how intertwined the health of their marriage and the business are, sharing tips for keeping communication and personal time alive.
• Amy credits the balance of independent work and togetherness for success:

  “You don’t want me on your back all the time. I’m not like the office pet. Like, I’m there doing shit and so are you, and we have to get our things done.” ([18:40])

6. Culture, Hiring, and Building the Team

• Tyson lauds Amy’s role (together with Kristin) in assembling a stellar team.
• Amy looks for communication skills and personality—valuing authenticity over cookie-cutter candidates:

  “I like to think that people are capable of so much more. So not looking for a cookie cutter mold, but honesty is one thing. People that can communicate well—it’s getting really hard to find people that are good at communicating.” — Amy ([23:47])

• They discuss their detailed, “not normal” hiring process, which involves rigorous multi-stage interviews and reference checks, and why it protects their culture ([33:16], [34:23]).
• Amy shares pet peeves: “No call, no shows”, “bad camera setups”, and lack of effort in interviews ([34:54]).
• Using personality frameworks like Kolbe and Enneagram to place people in roles that fit ([27:24]).
• Tyson: “There’s no better partner… in your firm or any business than your spouse— as long as you’re good partners.” ([16:13])

7. Culture Shifts and Core Values

• They reflect on a major culture transformation, especially after implementing “top grading” for hiring.
• Amy highlights that strong culture depends on genuine buy-in to core values, not just lip service:

  “Some people that we had here before truly didn’t… in their core, I do not believe that their actions [matched their words].” — Amy ([39:22])

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Notable Quotes & Key Moments

• On embracing change & learning from setbacks:
  “Even the failures, like, we have to have them and we have to learn from them.” — Amy ([05:22])
• On working as a spouse team:
  “It’s better than dialing in any partners or any… anybody that’s in a business together with multiple goals is going to have that. I just think that it shows passion.” — Amy ([15:49])
• On separating work from personal life:
  “I felt like that was the only time of the day that we could, like, talk about it because, yeah, we work together, but… I am rarely with you, and I rarely talk to you.” — Amy ([18:08])
• On building a supportive workplace:
  “I don’t want people to feel like they’re working for us… you have to grow yourself into the person that you want to be, whether you stay here or do not. We want what’s best for you.” — Amy ([38:37])
• On the role of “the boss’s wife”:
  “There is a stigma. Like, okay, so why is she there then? She’s your wife. You’re the lawyer. She a lawyer? No. Why is she there?… Once you talk to me, I think that’s why it changes, because people hear me, they talk to me.” — Amy ([43:09])
• On leadership style:
  “I think the idea of a boss… I am their peer and I’m working with them. We are working together to achieve something.” — Amy ([45:11])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:30 – Howard Schultz quote & reflections on shared success
• 03:22 – Amy’s thoughts on career and journalism background
• 06:19-09:44 – Marriage growth, trust, and teamwork (75 Hard challenge)
• 11:43 – Amy’s early marketing role at the firm
• 13:48-15:08 – Adapting to working together, styles of giving/receiving feedback
• 16:34-19:05 – Marital boundaries, integrating home and work
• 19:40 – Establishing weekly date nights as business and relationship self-care
• 22:03 – Vision for the future & empowering team members
• 23:47-27:03 – Amy’s hiring philosophy; looking for communication, honesty, and personality
• 33:16-34:23 – Unique multi-step hiring process and why they’re picky
• 34:54 – Amy’s interview “pet peeves”: poor video, lack of professionalism
• 38:37-40:32 – Cultural transformation rooted in real core values
• 42:20-44:21 – Challenging/triumphing over being labeled “the boss’s wife”
• 45:11-48:00 – Leadership style: open, peer-focused, never ruling by fear
• 50:25-53:36 – Mindset shifts, personal growth, taekwondo, and encouraging employees’ potential
• 56:56-57:43 – Remote work, building a workplace that enables life goals
• 57:58-59:30 – Amy’s definition of success: balanced achievement, shared happiness

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Tone and Language

The conversation is refreshingly honest, informal, and lightly humorous, with Tyson and Amy interrupting each other, poking fun, and occasionally swearing. They’re unafraid to own their mistakes, admit the ongoing nature of growth, and celebrate the human side of managing both a law firm and a marriage.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Shared Leadership is Powerful: True partnership means supporting your spouse at home and in business, embracing growth for both.
• Open Communication is Essential: Disagreements will happen—with respect and trust, they lead to stronger outcomes.
• Company Culture Won’t Build Itself: Diligent hiring, clear values, and honest feedback are vital.
• Work/Life Boundaries Matter: Scheduled date nights, boundaries on work talk, and routines sustain relationships and morale.
• Personal Growth Ripples Outward: Pursuing new challenges—physical, professional, or personal—translates into workplace leadership and inspiration for others.

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Memorable Moments

• Amy’s comic relief:

  “I’m not like the office pet. Like, I’m there doing shit and so are you.” ([18:40])

• On Taekwondo and personal growth:

  “If I can do it, I know you can do it. So I think I just see people’s potential more maybe.” — Amy ([53:18])

• Asserting a “no fear” firm culture:

  “That’s not how we talk to our people here. So I’m not gonna go make them apologize. I’m not a parent. If they want to do the right thing, they’re going to do the right thing.” — Amy ([47:43])

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Closing Thought

This episode is an honest, practical playbook on building not only a successful law firm, but also a supportive marriage and community. Listeners will find actionable insight on hiring, culture, and communication woven with the warmth of real partnership.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. So this is an interesting one because Becca wanted me to interview you and it's been a long time coming. It's been something we've been talking about doing for a while. I don't know how excited you are about it, but I want to start with a quote from Howard Schultz. The, I guess he's not technically the founder of Starbucks, but was the CEO of Starbucks. And it's success is best when it's shared and I thought it was a really fitting way to start. So I want to get your thoughts on that.

[C]

Why? A thousand percent agree. I think that building, creating, just like watching, watching you, I'm going to say your success because that's kind of what it's been, your career and then Maximum Lawyer. So not only are you an amazing attorney and being with you through that journey, you know, we've built a life together so we're enjoying everything about it. And, and I love watching you grow. I myself have grown in the process. So I just think it's been, it's been beautiful. I love that quote.

[B]

Yeah, thanks. Really good. There's a few things I want to touch on so the, the growth I definitely want to get to because I, I think in our, in our marriage we've had a ton of growth quite a bit like. And individually, we've grown as well. But.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to hold off on that, though. You had made the comment about my success, and I know that you talk about that a lot, and I view it as our success. Sure, because it is something we're doing together. But you were very good at journalism and you went to the J School at Mizzou, and so you have a journalism degree and you went to school and that's what you wanted to do. And I wonder, as our marriages progressed, as your career has progressed with the serm, I wonder if you ever thought. Think about whether or not you. That's something you would have rather have done.

[C]

No. A thousand percent, no.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I think a lot of people go to school and they. They think that they might want to do one thing, and then they're going to turn around and want to try something else. And I think the whole point of living and experiencing is trial and error. And that was one thing that there were things that, like, fueled me during the day, like the hard deadlines. Like, I was. I mean, I was. I was just getting through it, and I think it helped me grow as an independent person. I mean, we weren't married at the time, and I was much younger, and I think I needed that. Talking to people, the communication side of it. I loved it. I did love that. But I can apply that to any aspect of my life. And I don't regret going. I loved it. Being on camera is not my favorite. That was probably one of the things that stressed me out the most. But talking to people, stories, like, I love that everybody has a story. So, you know, when you're on an assignment and you're getting news, I think. I don't want to get into it, but, like, with media, it's. It's very targeted, and most of the time, you're not getting everyone's thoughts and feelings. And some people don't like to talk to you, and, you know, you almost feel like you're missing out on that part. So. Oh, no, it is what it is. And it ended up the way that I think it was supposed to. And I only say your success, yours. Because everything that we do, that's kind of the foundation for it. I've had so much to do with it, and I've helped it grow. Don't get me wrong. I know what I've contributed, but I also know that this is more that this is kind of like where you've led us. And. And I love the fact that you've Led us here.

[B]

So I'm glad you said that, because I sometimes I question whether or not, you know, how much of a role you play.

[C]

Absolutely, I do.

[B]

See, I like that. That's good. Okay. Very good. Is there anything about your career that you would have gone back and, like, I wish I wouldn't have done that or maybe anything you would have changed about it?

[C]

No regrets? Like, no. No, I don't think so. I've always been pretty vocal about, like, if I feel like I'm capable of something, I can do it, I can get it done. I think there have been maybe some hires that we've made where maybe. I don't know, but those are learning moments. So I think even the failures, like, we have to have them and we have to learn from them. So, no, I would say there's nothing that I regret. I think on our. Our personal note, even, like, as you said, like, our marriage has grown. I think it's done it at maybe the right pace and maybe we hit. Was it like, when you get those wins, the tailwinds? I think it came at the right moment.

[B]

Yeah. You made a comment in the last week or so about, I won't get it right the way you said it, but basically we've hit our stride. I think that that was how we were stronger than ever kind of a thing, and I thought it was kind of a cool thing. What do you think has led to that?

[C]

Trust? I just think that when you're around someone long enough and you just have to. I don't know, like, what is it? Like, trustful. I think I use trustful. You. You really have to rely on that person. And then after so long, and some people can get in their heads about things. You know, we. We do have struggles, just like everybody else does. I mean, the bills have to get paid, kids have to get places, you know, where we're married, we're not, like, single. We can't just do whatever we want to do without the other person not knowing. So I think just years of understanding and communicating and trusting has a lot to do with that.

[B]

You know, I think. I don't want your thoughts on this, but I think right around the time we did 75 hard, I feel like there was a. It was a massive turning point for us where we had. And I don't know what it was, and I don't know why, but I just feel like there was a massive amount of growth after that point. That. And maybe you see it differently, but I definitely think that at that point, there was A mass. When we, we turned that corner and we did that, there was something about just kind of like we kind of took off.

[C]

Yeah. Whenever I feel like whenever you're in a situation where. And we did it like there was no compromising for 75 hard. There were days where at 11:30, 12:00, I was having to get my butt like out of bed. Like I had just laid down and I was like, dang it. I didn't take my picture before I fell asleep. And you're not supposed to fall asleep. And I knew I didn't want to have to go back and do that. And it would just be like, Amy, get up and take. So, you know, we had to rely on each other a lot and motivate each other. And I know you're saying like you can't really motivate someone, but.

[B]

Well, I, not, I don't say that. What I say is that you're responsible for your own happiness. Is what is. Is what.

[C]

But you, you've actually used the, the phrase you can't motivate someone.

[B]

I, I, I disagree because I do think you can motivate someone.

[C]

Okay. But I agree.

[B]

Good. But I do think that, I mean, they have to want to be motivated too, though. There's that too.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. But I, A lot of people, there's different personality types and some people actually need someone to be like, get the fuck out of it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you can, it's okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, they do. I mean, kind of like basic training, I guess. Can go back to that. Yeah. But it's like you got to have that plus you got to have the desire to do it.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Because otherwise it's just, you're, you're just going to go through the motions.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I mean, I think that if we, I think there's a way you could do 75 hard where it's kind of like a, a lazy way, kinda. Although this is really, there's really. No, but I do think you could have like taken, we could have taken like the easy path. We didn't, we didn't modify the rules. We didn't like, so there, there was like, we had to kind of stick to it. But I think the more important thing you talked about is like the like working it. We had kind of working as a team. I, I don't know if I could have done it by myself. I really don't. It really did take that. I don't know. It was.

[C]

You've done a great job staying vegan for seven. How long have you been vegan.

[B]

It's 2020.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You've kind of shifted into the vegetarian.

[C]

Yeah. Well, also 41 year old woman, there's a lot of other things too. So I know you said like 75 hard was a great journey for both of us. I agree with that. But then you turn around and you stop doing to 45 minute workouts a day, watching every single thing that you eat.

[B]

No cheating, no desserts, no late meals, no late night snacks.

[C]

Right. So everything that we had there, if you don't continue that, things kind of start to slowly regress and then you are looking at maybe like where you were before, but you know, mentally that you are capable of doing it again. And I love that I have that. But that also helped me get to my next thing that I had to kind of do on my own. But also you were like very encouraging. So I don't know if like we want to get into all of that.

[B]

But we get into whatever you want to get into.

[C]

Okay. Well, I'm just saying, like it's not just 75 hard. There's always going to be a new struggle that you have to overcome. And you're right. It's about having the motivation yourself to do what needs to be done.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To make that change. And I know that I have it within me. I've done it and I want to keep doing it. So I think that's what helps too.

[B]

I. I think what you touched on I think is really important because it's. You can do. What 75 her teaches you is that you can do a lot more in your day than what you think you can. Yeah, absolutely. You just, it's a matter of just focusing on the right things.

[C]

Yeah. And do you want to all the time? No. No, I want to just like rot in bed and watch TV with you or you know, have fun. But we know that we can if we want to.

[B]

Now Monday was a travel day, but like we kind of did that. We just kind of like laid around all day and hung out and you.

[C]

Know, it was our first day in New York. Didn't leave, didn't leave the room.

[B]

It helped that it was pouring like crazy. It was like the subway was flooded and all that kind of stuff. So that was. It did help with that. But it's like sometimes you just need those days.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's, let's talk about when you joined the firm though. Let's go back to the beginning. What was that like at the beginning for you?

[C]

I don't think it was okay. It's it's far different than it is now, but it wasn't different than what I was doing before. So I commuted a couple of days a week to St. Louis. And I use this term a lot for myself, like the lone wolf. I was the only one that was in there. Like, with marketing, you were busy. The rest of the team had their jobs, no one else. You know, I didn't really communicate with anyone else. It was just, get in there, get the job done, get our name out there. And again, a lot of trial and error. But. So there were some days where I was beating myself up. I didn't feel like I was good enough. And then as the numbers started to kind of come in, I was like, I'm good at this. Like, I'm okay at this. And then a lot of the other attorneys that were a maximum lawyer, just friends that you knew asking questions about how. How are we getting, you know, on the first page of Google? And they were struggling, and it was just. I don't know, it was good. Like, I felt okay, and then I started earning my place and kind of grew from there. But I guess you're just asking about starting, so.

[B]

Yeah, I just like. Just like how the transition was for you.

[C]

So it was good.

[B]

I. I do remember early days. We were kind of. There was like a. I wouldn't call it a power struggle between the two, but there was kind of. It was some adjustment, some adjustment period. And I don't know if you remember.

[C]

That much while I was just doing marketing. Oh, maybe it's because. Okay, so I like to ask a lot of questions. I don't, you know, like, whenever it's like, follow these instructions, do this, then this, then this. And I like, sometimes I like to find. Find my own way, but I need to know, like, where to start. And I think that you give instruction different than I take and I process. So I think maybe that's where it came in. But I know you and I want to respect you, so I do my best to just.

[B]

Well, I. It did seem like we were kind of. We butted heads quite a bit at the beginning.

[C]

I think we just butt heads anyway.

[B]

I don't. I don't agree with that necessarily, but it did seem like at the beginning we. We butted heads more. And the way I remember it was that you didn't necessarily like to take instruction from me at all. You wanted to kind of do your own thing.

[C]

It's the way that you approach.

[B]

Is that. What. Is that what it is? Okay, critique me. How. How Could I do? Am I. Have I. Have I done better? I guess is the way I start.

[C]

I feel like now you just stay away from me, like, or just avoid.

[B]

It's not true.

[C]

Okay. I think it's better now. You know, when you talk to other people, I think it's just who I am to you. I. So I can't. I'm not going to. I don't think. I don't think it's going to change. I don't want to give you feedback. I don't know. Let me.

[B]

Let me ask you another one. How do you like to get feedback? Because it's a way I can. I can. I can improve and make it better.

[C]

I think it's just. It's clear, but there's some understanding or something behind it. I don't know how to explain it, but it's. It's not like, Amy, when you, you know, like, I don't know, like, it's.

[A]

Like, am I too direct?

[C]

But I like direct. I just think that there's, like, some attitude behind it, like, almost like, you know better than this. Or there's like, there's something. It's the tone.

[B]

What the tone it might be is I have high expectations for you. And maybe what it is because. Sure, yeah. I don't know. Maybe what it is. I. I do think it's funny because people, like, they'll ask me about, like, our working relationship, and I tell them how, like, I talk to you like I do any other employee, and they.

[C]

They find that hard to believe because it's not true.

[B]

Well, it's probably not true because I'm harder on you than any other. Anybody else. I think that that's a fair critique of me, is that I am a little harder on you.

[C]

Kristen, can you call in?

[B]

Yes, if Kristin called in right now. There have been several leadership meetings where everyone else has just been kind of watching us as we have our heated discussion about things. I think it's healthy.

[C]

It's better than dialing in any partners or any. Anybody that's in a business together with multiple goals is going to have that. I just think that it shows passion, you know, the need for. I. I'm not going to say that, you know, you like perfection at all. I think that there's. There's a degree of that, maybe, but we both have the same goal, end goal in mind.

[B]

So I've always said there's no better partner that you can have in your firm or any business than your partner, than your. Than your spouse.

[C]

Like, you just I would believe that. As long as you're good partners.

[B]

Yeah. Well, okay, so that's a good. That's a good topic to get into. Is that, like, how the marriage can affect the firm and the firm can affect the marriage? You want to talk about that a little bit?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. Let's see. Where do we start? How the marriage can leak into the firm.

[B]

Yeah. Well, let me. Let me gag a little bit more. Separating. And I don't think it's possible to separate work from business, but I think we can create some buffers because we had one of the. One of the big. I wouldn't call it disagreements. One of the big issues we had was talking about work in bed. Oh, yeah, that was a big one. Which it still kind of has because.

[C]

You switch off and on all the time. It's like, okay, so if we want to get from A to B, we are going to have to work this many hours. That means date nights in bed. We'll order food, we'll grind it out.

[B]

Like working one. One time I ever mentioned that you're.

[C]

Like, for the next six months. So what does it mean for, like, two days?

[B]

Like, two years ago, I was like, two years ago, I mentioned that. But.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But I'm.

[C]

But also, you've said you enjoy working. You don't enjoy talking about working.

[B]

Well, so what I don't enjoy is I'm about to fall asleep and you ask me a question about an email that you got earlier in the day. That's. That's where. But there. But this is. I think this is a part of it, too. Is like, knowing the dividing lines. Right. Where I guess respecting the other one's boundaries in a certain way. Because you were. I think you were okay with just, like, discussing work in bed and just up till, like.

[C]

Yeah, because I'm midnight, you know, trying to get to again. I'm trying. I'm trying to get us there. I'm trying to do what I can and pull my weight.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I felt like that was the only time of the day that we could, like, talk about it because, yeah, we work together, but this is another thing that I don't think a lot of people understand. I am rarely with you. I'm rarely with you, and I rarely talk to you.

[B]

We're around each other, but not.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Nope. You are either recording or you're in court or, you know, getting things done, and I'm not, like, right next to you.

[B]

Now, do you think that that's a positive or a negative or Indifferent.

[C]

Positive. I think. I mean, you don't want me on your back all the time. I'm not like the office pet. Like, I'm there doing shit and so are you, and we have to get our things done. What I do love is if we have breaks and we can play around and we can, you know, talk and maybe have lunch on occasion. That's something else that we don't do a whole lot, but, you know, when we do, we enjoy it.

[B]

Yeah. Like last week we. The office was closed on Thursday. So I think on. On Wednesday we went to lunch together or maybe. Maybe we went on Thursday, I don't know. But yeah, we do try to find that time. And we have. Let me just ask you, like, what are some other things that you think we do that helps, I guess, keep the communication flowing, but keeps the marriage strong. Oh, you're smiling at me. What you. Well, I'm talking more like date night. Things like that.

[C]

Oh, yes, Date night.

[B]

Okay. Yes.

[C]

Okay, that's perfect.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

We do, like, so our weekly, you know, date night. And it's usually set, so it's not like spur of the moment thing, which, you know me, I kind of like surprises a little bit like that. But.

[B]

And we do. We mix and things like that too.

[C]

We do, yeah. Yeah, we do. But this will force us, like, in the kids. The kids need routine. So they also know Thursday's date night. Mom and dad are going to go do whatever, and then we'll be back later. So it just gives us time to like, talk and communicate. Eat food that maybe our kids don't want to eat, drive around, just. I don't know.

[B]

There was. It's interesting so that. Because a couple of weeks ago we had to move date night to Friday because it's usually on Thursdays. And they're even like, well, date night's on Thursday. And we're like, well, we. It's like. It's kind of like they know. They just know that. That Thursday's date night and that's what we're doing. I do remember, Even back in 2020 when everything got shut down, we still. Well, we made sandwiches and we went down by the river. Yeah, that was kind of cool.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Ate in the bed of the truck.

[B]

Yep. Like, so like it. And it is we started that. I remember someone at the first Max Lock on had recommended that where everyone had stood up and they had like, gave like one recommendation or something like that or one tip. And that's where that had initially come from. And so since 20, I guess 2016 or 17, whenever we had the first conference. We've been doing it ever since.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, and I will say that's another thing. It's not one of those things that's easy to keep up with, too. You have times, like, days, whatever, where it's just not. It's just maybe I don't want to do it. Maybe I don't want to. But then you end up. You. You just do it anyway, and, you know, you're. You're there, you're in it together again. I think it's that. It. Trust and communication and just. I mean, that gives you a little bit of a window of an opportunity to, like, talk about whatever's bothering you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. So let's. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about, I guess, the future. And I wonder, what if you could achieve one thing with the firm in the next 10 years? And I know that's kind of a big ask, and you could. I mean, you can go, you know, three to five years if you want, but in the next 10 years, if you. If you could achieve one thing, what do you think it would be?

[C]

Okay. So I love our team, and I love watching them grow. I mean, we have people coming in within their first year, and they're, like, getting unsung legal hero awards. I would say that I want everybody on the team to feel successful in some way and to be out in the community. I think empowering them to all do something like that, I don't know if that's my biggest one, but it's definitely coming to my mind right now. Also, having someone there that can not replace you, but I just think that you do so much for the firm, and you wear so many hats. I mean, I know I do, too, but maybe having someone that's like you, that can take over the things that you don't want to do, helping find that person.

[B]

I feel like I should be offended by that, but I'm not.

[C]

I'm just teasing me. You have, like, 200 hats that you just flip off, flip off and on, and it's just. It's amazing watching you do it. It gives me anxiety watching you, but you're just so good at it. I don't know how you're so good at it.

[B]

Quincy had said something like that last week, and I said it's just because we have a great team, which is the next. Which is I want to shift to because of that, because I do have. I think we have a fantastic Team.

[C]

We do.

[B]

And that's because of you and Kristen. You and Kristin have put together a fantastic team. The two of you are the ones that vet everyone that comes through and you've done a really, really remarkable job. So I wonder what. Let's start with some of the things that you look for whenever a candidate comes through. And, like, what are. Let's just start with that because I want to get to like somebody. Maybe some of the red flags, too, but what are, like, some of the things you're like, okay, this is someone that we definitely want to consider.

[C]

I like to think a little outside of the box because I think if we're looking for a mold of someone, it's a little hard to see things that they might be able to bring to the table.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know. I like to think that people are capable of so much more. So not looking for a cookie cutter mold, but honesty is one thing. People that can communicate well, it's getting really hard to find people that are good at communicating very much. What the hell is up with that? But Kristen and I look for people that are personable, that can communicate with us. And from there it's just like, you know, of course we have that little quiz that they have to take and, you know, pass it. They have to. I mean, they have to have a brain. Right. So. But I think overall, good conversation. Yeah, good conversation. Conversation where they're attentive in our interviews because, you know, we have multiple stages of our interview process and Kristin gets them first. So I feel like by the time they get to me, she's already like. She has a feeling like, okay, well, this could be good. Or I don't. I don't know. But I usually get the feel of how she is kind of like how she's thinking the person's gonna do. So I like to go in kind of knowing that I know you don't, but. But I do because then I can look for other things. So where you. It's like the negative. Like, you're focused on the negative. I want to focus on everything but that to see what else.

[B]

So I think you think that. But what I. It's because sometimes what I'll do is in the interview because by the time they've gotten to the last interview, they've been through several steps. And so I'm definitely not focused on the native, but sometimes I'll zero in on something where I think it could be a massive red flag for us. And so I'm trying to. That I'm Picking at it. Like. Like, for example, that the interview we did a couple of weeks ago where uncovered something that I think would have been a really bad thing for the firm. Sure. Or it would have been a really bad candidate for the firm that had not come up yet. And so sometimes what I'll do is I'll kind of pull back the onion a little bit. And I. I do that by, like, oddball questions. Like, I'll throw some really oddball out there to sort of get them comfortable enough to open up even more. And you, the two of you already ask really good questions that open them up quite a bit. And like, one of. One of the things you will always ask in the last interview is like, you know, the, the what makes you a nerd or a weirdo kind of a thing, which goes back to one of the max law cons where I talk about nerds and weirdos, which. Side note, what are you. Clearly, you're a. Go ahead.

[C]

No, you.

[B]

You're a weirdo. We know you're a weirdo. Yeah, absolutely. It's fantastic. No, but like, you. That, that's so funny you say. Cause you, you were talking about, like, you're looking at those other things, like, outside the box. And like, we found a lot of very valuable people by doing that and not looking for the cookie cutter.

[C]

Yeah. Personality types is another thing that I've, like, I. I went down that rabbit hole. I learned a lot. There are a lot of different tests that people can take that, you know, you're looking at different roles in our firm that require different personality types.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

A thousand percent. So. And then another thing is moving someone that's been in a role to something else. They still have that same personality type. Maybe they're not going to fit in the other one. So there's a lot of trial and error here, but I think for certain that that is something that I look at.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All the time.

[B]

I found it really interesting when I went. Whenever I went back and analyzed all the case manager scores and like, they all had like, a certain number within, like a one or two range. It was for Colby. The Colby scores. I know that you. You like, because we. Carrie did the Enneagram training, which I thought was really fun of all of it. So Carrie did. She's really into all that kind of stuff. And she did Enneagram. There's another. I thought she did another one, too, but she really dug deep on the Enneagram, which I thought was really fascinating because she understands it so deep.

[C]

She does. But did she Say, I think that she went to, like, their school, like, or she, like, learned something like that.

[B]

Yeah. So she really did. And I wonder what. What's your favorite of the. Do you like Colby more? Do you like the Enneagram more?

[C]

I like to. Well, I like to use them both.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's the thing. It's. They. I don't think that you can just necessarily have one over the other. I think that you have to kind of look at maybe the overall big picture. And here's the thing. If you don't believe that that's stuff is, like, real, then all I say is look at the highs and look at the lows of the personality types, because that is probably what you're going to be dealing with if someone's really struggling or if you notice that they are doing very well for themselves and how to, like, keep them there, what they need to stay there, and then the signs of when things start to decline. So a lot of people are like, yeah, I don't believe that. I think Kashif. Kashif is one. He's just like, no, it's not real. You can't. You can't just generalize people like that. I'm like, but there's a good. There's a reason for this. And there's.

[B]

Yeah, he's very black and white. There's no gray area with claship. He's very. Ones and zeros. That's. That's. We're just fitting for him. He's a cto, so that's kind of fitting for him. So someone asked me something the other day. I think it might have been Jeremy Danielson. He said it may not be him. So someone asked me, they go, what did Amy and Kristen. How do they feel when you say no to a candidate and they've spent all that time with them? And I was like, it doesn't seem. You all don't show me that you're frustrated. Although there was one candidate fairly recently I thought maybe was frustrating to you all, but I think it was the one that we. We. We kind of pulled back the. Seemed like there's shits and things going on.

[C]

No. Yeah, there. There's not been a time. And usually you don't veto someone. Right. You. You don't. You're like, let me think on it. And then we may never get an answer from you, so we just have to act on it. But, I mean, you found Kristen.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You found her.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You hired me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think you're really good at that. I think whenever you have, like, a million other things going on. It's hard for you to, like, focus on it. So you've given that to us, and I think that we've done a good job. However, there's no frustration to be had. You're not spiteful about it. I mean, you have a very good personality. So I don't think that there's ever been a time that Kristin or I have ever been upset.

[B]

Yeah, I think. And I guess I don't want to.

[C]

I think we're just, like, upset at the process because it's really hard to find good people. That has nothing to do with you.

[B]

Yeah. And I won't mention which one it was, but, like, there are some where, like, I will just say, hey, I don't know. I'm gonna let you all make the decision on this because I sometimes I just don't have a good read. And I. And that's. That's why I do sometimes dig in so deep with some of these and, like, I'll go in. One of my favorite things to do is go and actually read their resume. Imagine that. And then go and pick at pieces of the resume that they put in there. And sometimes it's very clear that it's bull crap. Right. It's like they've just put it in there because it sounded good and they didn't really have experience with.

[C]

Yeah. Is AI making these resumes anymore? Because let me tell you.

[B]

Well, I did a show on that recently where, like, it is. AI is creating them and then also analyzing them. And. And you're not getting a lot of the. The real. The realness of it. And that's why I think that our hiring process is so great, because we. You. You can't fake that funk like you can fake the. The reason why we have such a detailed hiring process is because when I was at State Farm a long time ago when, with that internship program, I was on there with some people that were. Just seemed like awful people. And I was always wondering, like, how could they. How'd they make it through? When you think, like, the standard hiring process for most companies, let alone firms, like, that's a big company. It was. You apply, you fill out a little bit information, you do a job interview, and they hire you based on basically a job interview. Because really, what's. What.

[C]

They just want the help. Just come help us.

[B]

And so, like, a job interview is just not enough. Like, think about, like, they can. Like, you all are analyzing the consistency of what they have told you all after now, what four Interactions, at least with them and that. And one of the things that you and Kristin will say, well, let's go back and look at our emails with them and see what they. Because you can learn a lot.

[C]

Kristin's really good at that, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And she gets in her head so much about it.

[B]

Why.

[C]

How long did it take them to reply to the email? Like, all of this stuff where, you know me, I'm like, from day to day, like, doing all this stuff. But, like, she keeps track of all of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How fast are they on it? And I'm like, hopefully we hear back.

[B]

And then also the detailed notes, like, she'll take on the reference interviews as well, where. Oh, she'll mention those. And whenever we have our little powwow afterwards, she'll have. She'll actually, you know, make. Well. Or sometimes she'll be like, well, let me go back and look at my notes on this. Because she'll have, like, detailed notes. Which is. Which is really good, too.

[C]

Right. Well, it's so, like, it's not a typical hiring process. So I think a lot of people that are in the market for jobs, and I can't tell you the last time I've interviewed, I can only imagine how hard it would be. But they are coming into this, probably applying to multiple places, and then they're like, golly, these people have me jumping through hoops. So half the time I think that they're just trying to find, like, the references. And then we have them schedule the call. Yeah, right. That's the part that throws a lot of people off. They're like, I gave you the names. Why am I doing this?

[B]

Right.

[C]

So that could take a while. It's not normal. But if they're motivated. And a lot of people that do the first interview. Actually, no. So the phone interview with Kristen and then the first interview, Zoom, Skype, whatever. With Kristen and myself, that's usually when they're like, I think this is where I want to be. So I'm going to do that. So at least that comes after.

[B]

Yeah. So I, like, a lot of times I hear people say, well, that's just too long. Your process takes too long. I wonder what your thoughts are to that.

[C]

I mean, it's either that or hire the wrong person and then have to go down that. I mean, chances are even if we go through this process, it's not perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, it's not. We still have people that kind of slide through that probably should not be here. Should not be here. If we didn't do this. I can only imagine how much higher the turnover would be.

[B]

Yeah. What are some of the pet peeves that you have when the beginning of the hiring process or I guess maybe even throughout where you're like, yeah, no.

[C]

Not going to work, no call, no shows.

[B]

Oh, definitely that for sure.

[C]

The other ones, I get really turned off with how people get on their cameras.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So bad. Like, if it is, like, we didn't take time to think about the background, you could either they're trying to hide something behind them where their face is so far up on the camera. It's like you're looking up or up their nostrils or like something else. Had some weird ones, but that's just something that sticks out. I don't know, maybe that it shouldn't matter so much, but I'm like, would you want a client seeing you like that? Like, you know, take a little bit of time to think about it?

[B]

I mean, I. I think it's. I don't know. I think that it's smart, like, the appearance how you like. But what's interesting is to me is, like, no one dresses up anymore.

[C]

No, they do. Oh, they do, actually. Our newest hire, your new executive assistant. Every interview she did.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was like, girl, like, let your neck breathe. But she felt good. I mean, she got on there, and that's how she wanted to dress, I think. What it. What was that saying, like, dress for the job you want, not the job you have. And I'm like, over here in my sweats and stuff. I'm like, I got the job I want. But, like, for that, like, it's still true for that younger generation. And I also like to feel good in clothes. Don't get me wrong. Like, if I was interviewing, I would know how to dress. I would know how to dress. And some people, T shirt, shorts for an executive assistant position or anything for a law firm. I still think that you should try.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, we like to be comfortable, but we're wanting to make a good impression and show how much we can dress ourselves up if we had to appear or do something like that. Like, there's a time and place for being casual. And usually an interview to get a job is not one.

[B]

Something about that position makes people want to go to law school.

[C]

It's working under you. I mean, it's really like. I think it's in. I think some people, they're like, okay, law, let me take that position. Just see how it goes. And then a couple months later, it's like getting pregnant. You work around you and. But no, like, they just. They just want more, and they. They see how much fun it is, and maybe not stereotypical of what maybe they see on tv. You make it look like it's a life, like a lifestyle that is attainable.

[B]

If. If our new one goes to law school, I'm gonna lose my mind. I just. That's. It would be three in a row.

[C]

You know, she just had a baby, so. Well, I don't know.

[B]

We'll see. I know that we're. Hopefully she's so, like. Because the last two have been fantastic, and we just hopefully, you know, like, I hate Lou. I hated losing both of them. And Jacqueline, she stayed with the firm as an intern, you know, and then Morgan, I'm sure at some point she'll, you know, stay with the firm as an intern or come back to the. The firm as an intern. Although I told Jacqueline not to work her first year, but she. She did it anyways.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. I would not recommend it, but anyways, I want to. So we transitioned. Like, this is. We're gonna stay on hiring for a second. Like, we did the whole top grading thing, and we completely changed the dynamic of our firm. And I wonder what you. What do you think was. Like, if there was one thing to point to, what changed the culture the most? Because I feel like our culture is so fantastic. At the time, I wasn't so happy with the culture. So I wonder what your thoughts are. What's the one thing you think you could point to that led to such a fantastic culture that we have?

[C]

It's gonna sound bad because, I mean, I've worked a little bit of background, so I have not always worked for you. I've worked for other people. So working for ourselves, you know, there's a. There's that thought that, you know, if you own a business, run a business, you're like, you are in it for yourself. And when you're working for someone else, you're trying to support yourself, but you know that you're growing their business. So coming from that and now being where I am, I don't want people to feel like they. They're working for us, that they're working for themselves, like, that you have to grow yourself into the person that you want to be, whether you stay here or you do not. We want what's best for you.

[B]

It's one of our core values.

[C]

Absolutely. So I think some people that we had here before truly didn't. They might have said that that's what they believed in, but in Their core. I do not believe that their actions.

[B]

Didn'T back up with this.

[C]

Absolutely. So if I can point to something, I'm going to tell you, I just think it's disingenuine people that say that they are, you know, they're in it for all of the good things that they do meet our core values, but actually they do not. So I actually look at those all the time, and it's really hard when we do our quarterly meetings and, you know, I go through each one and I'm. I'm trying to identify, like, okay, well, this person can be all of them. This person is definitely like three, you know, hardcore. Like, I can see. I try to see everyone meeting them. In some quarters, it's easier than others. And so that just goes to show you that, you know, not everything's always going to be perfect. And sometimes we really do have to work and try hard. But for some people, it was just like, maybe one out of the six.

[B]

Yeah. I look to the start stop. Keep how different it is than what it was back then.

[C]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

There were so many stop doings back then, and now it's like, for those of people that don't know, we go through this with a quarterly meeting. Every single quarterly meeting is, well, these are the things we should start doing. These are the things we should stop doing. These are the things we should keep doing. And a couple years ago, three years ago, the stop doing list was so long, we didn't have any. Like, we. If we had, maybe we had one, but we, like, I forced it because, like, I've made.

[C]

You're like, I'm going to call on you.

[B]

Like, let's. We got. Give me one. Like, give me something to work on. And it was actually a start doing that. They just worded it differently to make it a stop doing. So what are your thoughts? Because I, I thought that was a really good indication that the culture is. Is still strong.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't want to attribute it to anything really negative, except for the fact that, you know, we were a growing firm and there's a. Again, trial and error. You got to let yourself just kind of like, have room for trying things and then maybe just stopping them. Like, maybe we shouldn't keep doing that. So depending on which ones you were talking about stopping, I do see our list has decreased. But I'm only going to say that that's just because we have been so open to trying things, you know, making people happy. We want to include everyone's thoughts. Very open to constructive feedback. Ideas, you know, anything that they have, we want to make sure that we try it. So I'm just thinking maybe stop. Certain little things that we had tried, but only in, like, you know, we just wanted everybody to be happy.

[B]

Yeah. I want to transition, and I want to talk about. Let me use the phrase, the quote, quote, unquote, the boss's wife and something.

[C]

Mrs. Mutrix.

[B]

Mrs. Mutrix, yes. We talked about that recently. But I do find it interesting that you've been able to position yourself in a way where you're not the boss's wife. Right. You are the coo. And wonder how. Talk about how you were able to do that, because that's not an easy thing to do.

[C]

Did I have I 100?

[B]

Have I 100? Yeah.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

100.

[C]

It's funny because even whenever I talk to clients, it's really hard to say or hard not to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That I'm Tyson's wife.

[B]

I rarely ever will mention that you. That you're my wife. Like, I'll say. They'll say. I'll just say, Amy. I'll say. Yeah, I won't. I will. I won't say my wife. I won't mention you as my wife. Because I do think it does take away a little bit, you know, in a way, and it depends.

[C]

I think there is a stigma. Like, okay, so why is she there then? Just, she's your wife. You're the lawyer. She a lawyer? No.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Why is she there?

[B]

So.

[C]

And that's okay. I mean, I think it's common. Once you talk to me, I think that's why it. That's why it changes, because people hear me, they talk to me. It's same for Maximum Lawyer, though. That's Tyson's wife. I'm not a lawyer. I don't actually belong in this group. I just come for the free food.

[B]

That's not true. You do a great job of helping.

[C]

No, I do. And I love the people here. I almost do this. I think I do this all the time. Like, high school, college. Like, your groups of friends then become my groups of friends. Like, I will steal your friends, Mindy. Like, anybody. I will steal them away. Because I do think that you. You have a great group of people. So when we're here and when we're talking, I might not have a whole lot to contribute to some of those conversations. However, we have a good time, and I think that's what it's about. Like, uplifting people. That part I can do. I can do all of that. I might not be able to tell you what you need to do, but I can't even do that with our lawyers and the firm, because I'm not a lawyer.

[B]

No, but you can. You've done a really good job of navigating that, though. Where. And I think part of it is it comes down to hiring, too. Where we're not hiring assholes, you know? But you've done a good job of navigating the. There is like, whenever, you know, the firm I worked for before there was definitely different levels. The attorneys were at a higher level. And by what I mean by that is like, they were viewed as above, not just, like, from, like, a working relationship. Like, they were just viewed as, like, a higher class almost. And I hated that. And.

[C]

Yeah. Because some of them could just be garbage humans.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then you're sitting there, like, trying to look up to them.

[B]

Yeah, but you've done a good job of navigating that, where you're very respectful, but also, like, you were their boss, too, and you've. So you've been able to navigate that. So I wonder how you've been able to navigate that.

[C]

Easy, because I. I think the idea of a boss. Okay, if someone needs to be, I don't know, let go, or we need to have a tough conversation, I mean, I'll have that, but I would have. I would have conversations with anyone. So I don't view myself as, like, being the person, like a boss, I guess I just don't view myself as that. I am their peer and I'm working with them. And we are. We are working together to achieve something. So I've had bosses in the past that like to. It's like the foot down or I'm coming to the building to check things out. What is that like, ruling by fear? Like, that is shit. Like, that doesn't. That's not how we work here. And in fact, we've had clients or opposing counsel call in and get at our people to try to put them, what, in a. I'm sorry. I need this person to be productive for a full day. And if you're gonna come in here and mess with them, it's a no. It's a no for me every time. And so I think having my people's back, you know, like, I want to be. I want to be that person. I don't want anyone to be afraid of me. I actually probably do need to work on ways that I can set more expectations for them. Of course I want them to grow. They know that. But maybe There's. There's more growth that I can do on myself. I know that.

[B]

Well, you don't have to. You don't have to rule by fear. As long as you have, like, that open environment. You have the. You have accountability. You're using the job scorecards and the KPIs, and everyone's kind of focusing on everything is. Because everyone knows what the game is. Everyone that. I think that's. That's part of it, like, being open and honest about things. Then you don't have to rule by fear because that. It's not gonna do any good because. No, they already know whether or not they're achieving what they're supposed to be achieving or not, because you've been talking about it already.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

So you're not just, like, dropping the hammer. Which I do find interesting is like, if the people that call in and act that way, if they knew, like. Like behind the scenes, like, we're just kind of like, whatever, like. Or what I also find it interesting is, like, you call them out on it, and they immediately. Immediately apologize. No, no. You need to call them back and apologize to them.

[C]

Yeah. No, no. You didn't just yell at me for 30 minutes. You yelled at.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Sorry. No, no, no. You're gonna call them and tell them that you're sorry.

[C]

I know. Right. But then, like, is that ruling my. My fear?

[B]

Like, I don't care. I. Camera. Obviously can't mention the client's name, but.

[C]

I just, like, I'm just like, you know, I just want to let you know, I want to express that I don't feel like what you did was appropriate. Yeah, that's not how we talk to our people here. So I'm not gonna go make them apologize. I'm not a parent. If they're. If they want to do the right thing, they're gonna do the right thing. I'm gonna let them know my thoughts on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just like I would anybody. But I still. That's not ruling by fear. And that is. It's. And I don't agree with any context of, like, ruling by fear.

[B]

Yeah, there is. It's interesting. Sometimes the. The clients that can be the most difficult how you. When you kind of put your foot down, they. It's almost like they needed that. And then, like. Like the one client I'm thinking of, off top of my head, I'm not. I can't mention his name.

[C]

I think I know who you're talking.

[B]

But, like, he's, like, one of our biggest advocates now. You Know, like. Like, we had to, like, kind of, like, had that firm conversation with him, and now he's like, he loves us. And sometimes they just. Sometimes you just kind of have to put your foot down and. And, like, stand up for your team, but then also, like, just stand up to the bully.

[C]

Mm. Well, like, the days of Amazon and customer service with Disney and all these people, they're just like, no. If they can raise one complaint, they're getting something going their way. And it's almost like a. I think it's like a game for people. They're like, let's see how far I can push this, because I want my phone call. I want this, I want that. And I think that they will do it. Maybe not because they're unhappy, but just because they want to see what more they can get. And if you let them know, that's. That's not this. We're. We're not that. So, I mean, we're working with courts, we're working with, you know, opposing counsel. There's multiple parties involved here. This isn't like a. You get to call me and you get to do this, like, every time. So the open conversation with them is humanizing the experience that they're having, so they know there are other people here. We're not robots. We're not computers. Like, we're people. So it's a great point, I think, letting them know and actually talking about it. A lot of people, they're going to keep going until someone actually says that. And I think so many of us are getting frustrated by being treated that way, and then we just keep getting treated that way instead of saying, hold on, wait, you know, don't go off of a script. If I called someone else and I started ranting, they're gonna go off of a script. I'm sorry, Amy. I am. I'm doing everything that I can here, and unfortunately, you know, it's just very robotic.

[B]

Yeah. Something I've noticed about you since we've gotten married, but then also since joined the firm, is you're changing your mindset. And I wonder if, like, what habits or routines that maybe you've added or what shifted your much more of a positive mindset, more of a growth mindset. I wonder what shifted and what's led to that, and if there's anything you do on a regular basis to make sure that you remain positive.

[C]

There's probably a lot, but I think growth for people should last a lifetime. I don't think that we should, like, ever stop. So each little stage of my mindset growth and remaining positive has to do with, you know, kids getting to a certain age. I mean, I was a very anxious, like, early mom. The I was what, 28 when we had our first. Isn't very young, but I guess it's young to people that are having kids now. And so I was just going through all these different stages of my life very early on, and I didn't quite know what to do. We lived in St. Louis. We didn't live around family. And I've never been like a gym person. Like, I never found anything for myself. It was just the family and just going day to day, just doing what I needed to do. So I don't want to say it was like, mundane, but that's usually what it is, right? You wake up, you eat, you do your work, you pick up the kids, and there's like nothing spontaneous in there. And to get out to see things adventuring. Of course, going with you, Maximum lawyer. Taekwondo was another thing that gave me a little bit of an outlet, kind of like a gym, but it gave me a goal to work toward, which has been really fun. Also empowering myself, like, knowing how to. How well I can do there. Competing was probably an element of it that really sparked that because I was doing pretty good there.

[B]

Well, for the, for people that don't know, like, you're a black belt in tech.

[C]

I'm going for my second degree.

[B]

Second degree. Right. Which is awesome. And you, you've competed, you've gotten lots of first place. Lots of second place. Mostly first place.

[C]

And I got a first place district, which. That's like three states that compete together. And I took it for. What was it? For my forms.

[B]

And you got robbed in the other one.

[C]

Well, weapons and sparring. Yeah, all of them and sparring. I mean, that's like physical contact. And I'm a pretty small person.

[B]

You're the smallest one out of all of them.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And so. And like you're dealing with these ladies that have like long legs that you're.

[C]

Seven duck, seven feet tall. Yeah.

[B]

Has that, has that helped you with anything when it comes like leadership or. I mean, clearly your confidence has. Boost your confidence. But as it helped you with anything when it comes to like just either, you know, dealing with the kids.

[C]

If I can do it, if I can do it, you can do it. Yeah, if I can do it, I know you can do it. So I think that I just see people's potential more maybe.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think that helps the kids, our kids.

[B]

I'm like, yeah, we'll say more about that. The potential part of it, what you. You see more in it. What do you mean?

[C]

If people are open to sharing, like, things that they want to do or try or maybe ideas that they've had, you want to, like, coax that out a little bit more, and you want them to play with it, and instead of putting it back in their pocket and holding onto it, you want them to actually do it. You want them to try it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then maybe from there, try something else. If they didn't really like that. Try it. Bianca, who is our receptionist now, getting motivated to get back into, like, weightlifting. What is it called when you go to the. The gyms and you do all the things. What is she?

[B]

CrossFit.

[C]

CrossFit. So she's been doing CrossFit and then got her kids into CrossFit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so. And she's just feeling so empowered here. So I don't do CrossFit. I don't ever want to do that. But she then got motivated, just working around us, to start doing it again. And I think that she used to do it maybe, but, like, her kids, like, involving them. I thought it was beautiful because I do ours with the kids. And then once they all, like, bowed out, I was like, I'm not stopping. I mean, I want to keep doing it. But it. It was discouraging. I'm like, okay, well, maybe they look at me and like, it's not motivating to them, or they don't really look up to me because they don't want to do it, and I'm still over here doing it. But guess what? They joined back in and they're doing it again. So it has nothing to do with me. Like, their. Their journey doesn't. But if they want to do something and it makes them happy, then I am like, get it.

[B]

Well, like, their schedules were so insane. And, like, you know, Emma got her black belt. Jackson has black belt. So Emma, you know, Jackson stayed with it. Emma just. She had to take a break. She. And she joined.

[C]

It was understandable.

[B]

She's doing Jiu jitsu with me, and so she's. She likes that, too. But she's doing taekwondo. She's gonna. I mean, she's already a badass. She's going to be immortal. And then Hudson Boomerang back.

[C]

So his friend was in the class. I'm not taking any credit there. Yeah, but he just wanted a friend.

[B]

Yeah, but he's back in it, so that's pretty good. But how do you. How do you help coax that out of employees, though, where you're trying to get them to kind of open up and kind of achieve more?

[C]

Okay. Being interested in their happiness. That's all it is. Carrie, you know, like, would. Does she absolutely love. This is her. Is this her passion job? She is. She's good at it. I think that she. She loves the people. She loves us, but her passion is cooking. Well, they finally built that pizza oven, and it was just like, I need pictures, girl. Show me the progress. We want to see every step of it, you know, get it there. And now her and her husband have these cool little pizza boxes that they made, personalized ones that they deliver pizzas to her neighbor. So it's like she's able to do something that makes her happy outside of work, and she has people that are cheering her on and want the best moving. She wanted to move to. I probably shouldn't say locations, but she moved halfway across the country and is living in her dream place with her pizza oven. Yeah, it's great. It's great. So I just say, like, communicating. It all boils down to communicating with our people, knowing what they want, what drives them, and encouraging them to keep going.

[B]

Yeah. One of the coolest things that. That I've seen, because since we've been running the firm together, is when she posted about getting the house where she. Where they live now, and, like, how she's like, she was so thankful for the firm, how she's able to do it because of the firm. I was like, that's. It's such a cool thing to be able to see that and kind of see people grow together. It's a. It's a pretty awesome.

[C]

It's gotta make you feel like, find a new job. Like, you don't have to stress and worry about that because you've created a place where we can work remotely and we can work from anywhere, which means that we can hire the best people no matter where they're located. So I love that they appreciate that. And it's not like I live here. I know you're there. But if they want to move or relocate at any point, they can.

[B]

Yeah, that's awesome. So I'm going to talk. I'm going to end with talking about success. And I. How do you think. What does success look like to you now versus say, like, five years ago or 10 years ago?

[C]

That's a good question. I don't know if it's, like, changed for me. I think it's always been the same. I think success is a balance of achieving goals and remaining happy at the same time without failing. A lot of people around you, like, there's a lot of. There's a lot of things where I. I don't know. Success is like a big thing. So the way that you get there has something to do with it. I know that there are probably successful people that are not happy or they are hurting other people to get there. And I don't look at that as success. I look at it very differently. And I think doing good for people around you, good for you, your family, and growing something might be slower, it might take a little bit longer, but I think that's true success.

[B]

How will you know that you're successful in five years?

[C]

Because I know I am now.

[B]

Well, but if you're going to look at one thing in five years, how will you know that you're successful then?

[C]

Oh, that's a good question. Not being stoned, on the streets, homeless. Yeah. I would say that we're still married.

[B]

You don't have to worry about that.

[C]

And then, I don't know. I don't know how I would rate it. There's, like, so many things I would love to say that, you know, the people in our firm are still here. I would say that they're happy. The people that have helped us build what we're building are still happy, whether they're with us or somewhere else.

[B]

Very good. You made it through. That's it. That's all I got for you.

[C]

I survived.

[B]

Thanks for doing it.

[D]

Hey, I've got a question for you. When was the last time you drove over to another law firm near you, Sat down over lunch and traded every business tip you've got? Talked about what's working, what's not, and what to do next? No, see, that's what Maxla Khan is for. It's real conversations with law firm owners who are actually doing this building, leading, scaling, and willing to share what's working right now. You could keep doing it alone, but let's be honest, it's slower, harder, and way more expensive than getting in the room and shortcutting the learning curve. As of this recording, we've got two 20 seats left to this year's event. Skip the guesswork, go to maxlacon.com and grab your ticket before they're gone.