Couples Series: Clear Roles, Shared Goals with Jeremy and Sara Danilson

Summary

Maximum Lawyer Podcast Summary

Title: Couples Series: Clear Roles, Shared Goals with Jeremy and Sara Danilson
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Release Date: June 30, 2025

---

Introduction

In the inaugural episode of the "Couples Series," host Tyson Mutrux delves into the intricate dynamics of running a law firm alongside one’s spouse. He interviews Jeremy and Sara Danilson, a married couple who not only share their personal lives but also collaborate professionally in their law firm. This episode offers a candid exploration of their roles, shared visions, challenges, and the delicate balance between business and marriage.

---

Defining Success

Both Jeremy and Sara emphasize that success is deeply rooted in family well-being rather than financial gains.

• Jeremy on Success:
  [02:50] “Success means that my family can do the things that we want to do so that I can be a present husband, father... it is all about creating a life for my family.”

• Sara on Success:
  [03:53] “Success to me isn't necessarily how much money we're making or material items that we're able to have. It's being able to go do the things that we want to go do... being able to go to our boys' baseball games, play golf.”

Both agree that prioritizing family and personal fulfillment is paramount, even if it means sacrificing potential financial gains.

---

Desired Changes in the Firm

When asked about one significant change they would implement if given the chance:

• Jeremy:
  [04:48] “We have revenue goals that we want to achieve and that's going to create a lot of financial freedom for the firm... more leads, more business.”

• Sara:
  [04:58] “I would like to find a little more help... implement more AI to allow Jeremy and I to have the capacity to do some of the things that we enjoy.”

Both express a desire to enhance the firm's growth and efficiency, with Jeremy focusing on business expansion and Sara on optimizing operations through technology.

---

Vision for the Future

When envisioning their firm 15 years down the line:

• Jeremy:
  [05:55] “Our firm provides the best client experience for buyers and sellers of real estate in the state of Iowa... nobody else can touch us.”

• Sara:
  [06:23] “Honestly, I think it looks pretty similar to how it is now... we like to keep it small with a family atmosphere.”

While Jeremy envisions significant growth and market dominance, Sara prefers maintaining the firm's current size and culture, highlighting a balance between expansion and preserving their firm's close-knit environment.

---

Leadership Dynamics

A key discussion point revolves around who holds the leadership reins within the firm.

• Jeremy:
  [07:20] “So I am the attorney of the firm, but Sarah's the boss... I probably make the ultimate final decision, but she's a great filter.”

• Sara:
  [07:46] “Jeremy... he ultimately has the final say on most things... he has the final say.”

Despite different perspectives on leadership titles, both acknowledge that Jeremy holds the ultimate decision-making authority, with Sara playing a crucial role in filtering and guiding decisions.

---

Working Together: Strengths and Conflicts

Roles and Beginnings:

• Jeremy:
  [08:18] Describes how Sara organically took on roles to support him without initial plans, leading to a formal partnership over time.

• Sara:
  [09:02] Shares her proactive approach in assisting Jeremy to balance work and family life, evolving into her current role.

Conflict Areas:

• Delegation and Focus:

  • [10:17] Jeremy wishes Sara would delegate more and trust others to handle tasks.
  • [10:44] Sara feels Jeremy, while supportive, can become sidetracked with projects like AI, affecting her focus.

• Leadership Styles:

  • Sara’s Leadership:
    [20:54] Jeremy praises Sara as the "heart of the law firm," highlighting her ability to connect with the team and manage operations effectively.
    [21:34] Suggests Sara could engage more in hard conversations to enhance collaboration.

  • Jeremy’s Leadership:
    [22:26] Sara describes Jeremy as a compassionate and patient leader but wishes he could sometimes be more assertive.
    [22:38] Explains that Jeremy avoids upsetting others, sometimes at the expense of addressing issues firmly.

Butting Heads:

• Business Decisions:

  • [14:39] Jeremy recounts disagreements over a marketing company acquisition, illustrating their collaborative decision-making process amidst challenges.

• Work Practices:

  • [10:17] Jeremy and Sara discuss balancing automation and maintaining personal touches in client interactions, leading to differing views.

---

Work-Life Boundaries

Both Jeremy and Sara strive to maintain clear boundaries between work and personal life to preserve their marriage.

• Boundary Rules:

  • [16:45] Jeremy emphasizes no work in the bedroom and limiting work conversations to between 7:30 AM and 5:30 PM.
  • [17:30] Sara notes that while they don’t have strict rules, they avoid work discussions during specific times like games or weekends.

• Handling Conflicts:

  • [18:50] Jeremy shares their approach to resolving fights by giving each other space and addressing issues promptly, often using work interactions as a pathway to reconciliation.
  • [20:01] Sara describes her method of shutting herself away when upset but ultimately using work-related questions to bridge gaps and move forward.

---

Key Takeaways and Lessons

1. Prioritize Family and Personal Fulfillment:
   Both partners prioritize their family's well-being over the firm's financial success, fostering a supportive and intentional business environment.

2. Define Clear Roles and Responsibilities:
   Establishing clear roles helps in balancing professional and personal lives, though flexibility remains essential.

3. Effective Communication is Crucial:
   Open and honest communication, even during conflicts, ensures that both the business and marriage can thrive despite challenges.

4. Adaptability and Delegation Enhance Business Growth:
   Embracing technology and delegating tasks can alleviate pressure, allowing both partners to focus on their strengths and enjoy personal pursuits.

5. Maintaining Boundaries Prevents Burnout:
   Setting and respecting work-life boundaries helps in preserving the marriage while running a successful law firm.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jeremy on Defining Success:
  [02:50] “Success means that my family can do the things that we want to do so that I can be a present husband, father... it is all about creating a life for my family.”

• Sara on Defining Success:
  [03:53] “Success to me isn't necessarily how much money we're making or material items that we're able to have. It's being able to go do the things that we want to go do...”

• Jeremy on Delegation:
  [10:17] “Trying to do everything herself. To learn how to delegate, to learn how to ask for help...”

• Sara on Leadership:
  [22:26] “He's a very good leader. He's very compassionate. He's very understanding...”

---

Conclusion

Jeremy and Sara Danilson exemplify how a married couple can successfully navigate the complexities of running a law firm together. Their shared commitment to family, clear role definitions, and open communication serve as valuable lessons for other couples in similar professional partnerships. Despite occasional conflicts, their ability to prioritize and collaborate ensures both their personal and professional lives flourish harmoniously.

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part? There's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law.

[Sarah]

This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

[Tyson Mutrix]

This episode is the first in a special three part series where I talk to couples who not only live together but run law firms together. We wanted to know what that actually looks like behind the scenes, where they're aligned, where they butt heads, and how they handle the business and the marriage at the same time. For each episode, I interview both partners separately. Then I bring them together at the end to see what happens when they hear each other's answers. It's raw, it's honest, and some of the answers are going to surprise you. But it's all about getting them together on the same page so they can grow their businesses as a united front. Today you're going to hear from Jeremy and Sarah. Jeremy's the CEO, the attorney in the firm, and as you're going to hear, he brings a clear leadership lens to how he runs the business. We talk about decision making, pressure and what it's like when the person you go home to is also the one helping run the firm. Then I sat down with Sarah. She's the operations and transactions manager and she's the one making sure everything behind the scenes actually works and gets done. From client processes to internal systems, Sarah has her hands on all the details that keep the firm moving. Let's get into it no marriages were.

[Jeremy]

Harmed in the making of this podcast episode.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What does success look like to you?

[Jeremy]

Success means that my family can do the things that we want to do so that I can be a present husband, father. The law firm brings me joy and allows me to pursue my passions, but it is all about creating a life for my family. And we've been really, really purposeful and intentional for the the last 10 years and trying to make that happen.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Would you give up the, the potential of making more money to actually make that success happen?

[Jeremy]

We have. We've put family first from day one. And only recently in the last year has the financial piece really risen to the forefront and been a focus the first priority. When we opened the firm, we actually, our kids were boys were really little and having one of them was hospitalized eight times in a year for pulling it pulmonology issues and being able to be present with them in the hospital and then being able to pick them up at school or take them to school when we wanted to. That freedom was the most important thing and that's what we built into this firm from day one. So we, we have done that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, Sarah, what does success look like to you?

[Sarah]

Being able to do the things that we want to do, Hang out with family, hang out with the boys and not have any worries about it. Success to me isn't necessarily how much money we're making or material items that we're able to have. It's being able to go do the things that we want to go do, being able to go to our boys baseball games, being able to go sit on a patio in the afternoon, being able to go play golf. If we're able to do that, then we're doing something right, which means that we're successful.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?

[Jeremy]

That's tough. I really, really love the firm we have and there's always something to work on, so I guess just more. We've got revenue goals that we want to achieve and that's going to create a lot of financial freedom for the firm. So more leads, more business. But there's a process to get there, so I'm not anxious about it, but I'd like to fast forward to that. Three to six months would be the one thing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, what's one big change you'd like to make to the firm right now if it were only up to you, goodness gracious.

[Sarah]

I think I would like to find a little more help. But not necessarily going and hiring an individual. So just. And I think Jeremy's doing a good job of it right now with some of the AI stuff that we're doing, but continuing to implement more of that into our work to allow Jeremy and I both to have the capacity to do some of the things that we enjoy doing. I enjoy doing the marketing stuff. I can't do any of it right now because I'm busy doing other things and I need to not be doing those other things and be able to do what I enjoy doing. So I need help.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's. I think that's a. That's a common refrain, I think, from. From many. Yeah, many people running firms. All right, so I'm going to give you a magic wand. I've given this magic wand to everybody else, but you alone get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. Okay. No one else gets to decide on this. Only you. Describe what it looks like.

[Jeremy]

Our firm provides the best client experience for buyers and sellers of real estate in the state of Iowa. And we're known for that. And the market is willing to pay a premium for that. And nobody else can touch us. So whether or not we. We want to serve more and more Iowans, but we want to make sure the client experience is number one. Is that detailed enough?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it is. Can't wait to discuss that one between with the two of you, that's for sure. I'm going to give you a magic wand and you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. So. So describe what it looks like.

[Sarah]

Honestly, I think it looks pretty similar to how it is now. I. We've both talked and we don't want to become a big law firm with a bunch of employees. We like it small. We like this family atmosphere we have with our current employees. So I wouldn't necessarily change the size of our firm. I would like to be able to step back and in 15 years, my kids will hopefully be out of our house. So I would like Jeremy and I to be able to be less hands on. But honestly, I don't see. I really like things the way they are right now as far as our size and whatnot. So, again, I don't need to make more money or anything. I just want to be able to keep enjoying life and doing what we're doing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

This is the one I want to ask you the most, actually, out of all these, based on Sarah's answer. Who. Who's the boss of the firm? So I'm not talking about titles or anything else. I'm talking about who's the person that like, that makes the final decision. Who's the boss?

[Jeremy]

So I am the attorney of the firm, but Sarah's the boss. Most of the big decisions I always run by her and we discuss. I probably make the ultimate final decision, but she's a great filter. She is my guidepost, so I always call her the boss.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so who's the boss of the firm? And I'm not talking about titles or anything else. I'm talking about like, like who ultimately like is the one that makes, makes the decision on, on. On something.

[Sarah]

I think it's honestly probably more. This is going to hurt to say probably more. Jeremy, he'll say it's me. But in the end I think he does have the final say on most things. How we get to that final decision is sometimes very easy and sometimes there's a little bit of yelling involved. But I think overall he's the attorney and it is his firm, so he has final say.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

[Jeremy]

So from day one, it was just me for the first couple years. And actually Sarah just started helping without me asking. I was. When the boys were really young, I was working really late nights and she just started taking things off my plate and for a couple years would work, work without being paid and just because she didn't want me to work so late and wanted me to be available and present for the kids and to be able to help and just be a dad. And then over after a couple years of that, we created a more formal role with salary and compensation and job responsibilities. And she has built it from that point forward.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How did the idea, the two of you. It's. I, I can't wait to get into that whenever we're in the joint session because that's. I think it's gonna be a fun one to talk about. But how did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

[Sarah]

It never really came up. I remember when Jeremy started the firm, he was working till midnight or 1am we had a one year old at the time and another one on the way. And I finally kind of just by watching him just started doing things without him really asking. He never asked me to join, he never asked me to help. It was never planned this way by any means. But I was tired of him working until midnight or 1am So I finally just said, what can I help you with? Show me how. There's no reason you need to be scanning in documents or I'll deliver these here or whatever. So I got tired of not being able to see him and not him not being able to spend time with our son at the time. So I just kind of inserted myself and it just kind of progressively got more and more responsibilities and here we are now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I find that to be so fascinating. I did not expect that answer. But that's. That's a very interesting. That's. I think it's really. That's really cool. Good. Kudos to you for doing that. That's. That's incredible. What's one thing you wish Sarah would stop doing in the business?

[Jeremy]

Trying to do everything herself. To learn how to delegate, to learn how to ask for help. There's a challenge or a difficulty in her letting go sometimes and trusting others. So whether it's stopping doing something or learning how to do something, but that's kind of how I frame that answer.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, let's get into that one. In the joint session. What's one thing you wish Jeremy would stop doing in the business?

[Sarah]

I don't know that there's something I wish he would stop doing. Jeremy gets very. He gets sidetracked very easily. So like, he's like, you're. I have to him in sometimes. I'm like, hey, just so you know, you're spending a lot of time on this like, AI stuff and I think it's fantastic. But I need you to come back over here to like this area for a minute. So I don't know that there's anything he should stop doing or start doing, but he's just needs to get a little bit better about managing his time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

A little more evenly, a little more focus.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, gotcha. Do you think he's spending too much time on the AI stuff?

[Sarah]

Yes, honestly. But I also know it's to get us help. And I just told you I needed help. So I can't be mad at him when he's doing what I'm asking him to do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But fair. That's fair.

[Sarah]

But it does consume. Like if we're sitting at a baseball game in between games, he'll test the AI thing and I'm like, like, just walk away for a minute. Disconnect. So.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Gotcha. Describe Sarah's her work style in one word.

[Jeremy]

Focused.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Explain what you mean by that.

[Jeremy]

When she's it in front of her computer at the desk, she is focused on that in. In her world and doesn't want to be bothered. And she will just crank stuff out when she's allowed to have that focus. So just. Yeah. Just focused.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So describe Jeremy's work style in one word, sporadic. And explain more about what you mean.

[Sarah]

He sometimes is all over the place. Again, focus. Needs to just focus a little bit more. So he'll go from one thing and we'll be talking about something, and then he starts talking about something else. And I'm like, what? This doesn't make any sense. And he's like, oh, I'm talking about this now. And. And he just gets excited about things, and that's great, but I can't keep up sometimes. I'm like, I'm trying to work on a transaction and you're over here talking about somebody named Maya, who is apparently our AI lady. I didn't know that he would talk to some lady named Maya all the time. And I'm like, who is Maya? Say I person. So he's all over the place sometimes. So just very, very.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, that's funny. What's one way that you and I can't wait. This is one that's. It's. This is just. Some of these are. Okay. So I just want to tell you, I didn't say this is there. This is all intended to help. Nothing. It's. Some of this is fun, but this is all intended to help. But what's one way you and. You and Sarah butt heads at work?

[Jeremy]

She has more demands on her time for client service and transactional needs. So when I pop in randomly with a different idea and needing her input on firm operations or something like that, she needs to get. That can be disruptive to her workflow. So I need to be intentional with and really probably communicate in advance when I want to talk about those kinds of things so she can prepare her mind. Because switching from running a real estate transaction to talking about how AI can help a piece of her role or help the team is a tough brain switch. And to do it suddenly without warning and respecting those boundaries of her client demands is probably something I need to do better at.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, nice. That's a good answer. What's one way you and Jeremy butt.

[Sarah]

Heads at work a lot of the time? It's over again when he tells me I need help. And I know I need help, but I also am not a massive fan of automating a lot of things because I think technology is great, but I get really concerned about errors and we butt heads over automation a lot, I think. And I know it probably does make it a lot easier, but I don't trust technology as much as he does. And I feel like sometimes you lose some of the personal touch, and that bothers me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's the biggest business decision the two of you have disagreed on and how did it play out?

[Jeremy]

Might be a marketing company that we're working with right now from day one. Well, from probably day 14. Sarah had a feeling in her gut when we learned about an acquisition of a company we decided to work with, that they were being acquired by a company we had previously worked with. And she just had a bad feeling in her gut. And there's been bumps in a row that we're trying to work through and decide what direction we're going to go, whether we're going to continue working with them or not. She would tell you she was ready to be done a month and a half ago. We're still currently working with them because I want to know how we're going to get these things done before we cut ties so we can be intentional with what that looks like and it doesn't just fall on us.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I did not expect that answer, to be honest with you. So that. That'll be a fun one to discuss with the two of you. What's the biggest business decision? So I want you kind of think about this for a second. What do you think is the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on? And. And how did it play out?

[Sarah]

That's a hard one. There's definitely been personnel, things that are not fun for anyone involved. That's probably where we have a lot of our conversations, is it's a very hard thing to do when it comes to hiring or firing or who do you hire? Where do you hire from? I think when we started to explore growing the team, that was probably. There was a lot of discussions around that. I won't call them arguments or fights. A lot of very heated discussions, I think. But I'm glad we made the decisions that we made. And ultimately he won. But don't tell him that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Was he right?

[Sarah]

He was. I don't like to say. Yes, he was right. He was right. It was. It was hiring, like the overseas stuff that made me really nervous and whatnot. And ultimately, I mean, it has been probably one of the best decisions we've ever made. And I would hire more.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Who's faster to want to fire somebody?

[Sarah]

Me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I didn't expect that, actually. I thought it would be the other way around. Interesting. What are the rules about talking about work at home?

[Jeremy]

We try to put boundaries on no work in the bedroom, and some days we're better than that at others. There's definitely no laptops in the bedroom. And we're really good at that. We try to keep conversations between 7:30 and 5:30, but it doesn't always work because sometimes things pop up when we're in the car on the way to baseball. And it's okay. It doesn't upset either one of us. But she tries really hard, I think, to disconnect on the weekends. And I try to give her that space. I don't always disconnect, but I think, I think the one we're best at is just no, no laptops in the bedroom and we're not going to work till 10 o' clock at night.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Who breaks the rules the most?

[Jeremy]

Late night work? I think she probably would break some of the most.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, okay. All right. What are the rules about talking about work at home?

[Sarah]

We don't have any. It's really hard because when we talk about work, it's never work specific, like client specific. It's always like if we're randomly watching something on TV and something comes up and it's like, oh, that'd be really cool to do in our firm, or something like that. And it's more like ideas for the firm, not necessarily client or transactional things. If we're going to Costco and we're sitting in the car talking, sometimes just, it just, we talk about work. So I don't know. There's a rule. We don't work if we're at a game. We don't take calls. We used to do that when we opened the firm. He would, he had people calling his cell phone at all times of the day. So we've set boundaries that way. But we don't really have a rule not to talk about work. It's just, we can definitely tell if, if, if he wants to start talking about work. And I'm not into it. I'm like, I, I don't want to talk about this right now. It is after 5 o' clock or it is Saturday. And I just don't. That's not where the capacity in my brain is right now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Gotcha. Who's more likely to, to pick up the laptop and work during Non working hours?

[Sarah]

5050 to be honest. But lately, probably.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Jeremy, tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office or vice versa.

[Jeremy]

No, I'm not, I don't have a fresh one. I don't have a specific example, but when something like that occurs, it's mostly me, probably just giving space and not trying to get to a resolution faster than it's really reasonably possible to. So give a little space and then we'll talk through whatever the issue is and move forward with the day. Sometimes work actually gives us the avenue to work through the fight, so to speak, because clients need us and we have to talk. So you can't be. Stay mad too long. And like, if she'll get an email, she needs my input on something, she'll come ask me, we'll work through it, and then that just hastens or speedens, speeds up the resolution of whatever that fight might have been. I'll be really honest, we probably tried not to go to bed mad at each other so things don't carry over. That's something she's brought to our marriage and relationship is she always said if we have a fight, we need to solve it before we go to bed. I don't want to go to bed mad. I don't want to wake up and have you be dead and you'd be dead mad at me or vice versa. So we try not to go to bed mad at each other.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a good policy. Not always possible, but definitely a good policy.

[Sarah]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office or vice versa.

[Sarah]

Oh, gosh. I'm sure we disagreed about. Well, we disagree about things. Everybody does. I don't know of a specific time, but it does happen. It's usually I just go in the office and shut the door and if I have to walk out into the kitchen to get something, I just, you know, typical, just upset wife. You just, you just cold shoulder, don't talk. And then I hate that I have to break the silence when I have a client question and I'm like, damn it. Okay, here we go. And then it usually. And then we usually just move on after that. It's like it'll be something work related that actually helps us move on from it. And I.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's good. That's. That's good.

[Sarah]

But it's, it's. Who has to be the first one to break the silence of. Damn. I have a work question and it can't. I have to. I have to do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, that's. That's so fun. How would you describe Sarah's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?

[Jeremy]

I think she's the heart of the law firm, meaning she's really the connector. I'm the owner. I've got all these big ideas and I'm driving the bus and really kind of putting the, the core values in place. But she lives the core values, and she is an example and exudes those for the team. Whereas everybody else was hired and is an employee. They're really the team members. She's. She's seen as that hybrid as a team member running transactions, but also part of the ownership team. So she's. She's an example for the team, the middle ground. If and if they need something, they can go to her without having to bother the attorney or the guy in charge. It's really been helpful to have her as a connection or the heart of the heart of the firm.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What would you tweak about her leadership style?

[Jeremy]

She doesn't want to be the boss. I don't think she's always willing to have the hard conversations with me about different decisions we have to make. God, what would I tweak that's so dangerous? Yeah, you're just laughing about this sometimes. While my 100% of my focus is on improving firm operations and processes and scaling the firm, I wish I could get more of her brain on that to collaborate with me. At times. My brain's there 100% of the time, and hers is there 10% of the time. When she's there, she's awesome, but when she's not there, it's like me hitting my head against the wall. And I just can't make the progress I want to make. So I just wish I could open up her willingness to have those conversations a little bit more often, because I really like to be able to bounce ideas off.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so what. How would you describe Jeremy's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?

[Sarah]

He's a. I think he is a very good leader. He's very compassionate. He's very understanding. He's very patient. I do wish sometimes he wasn't so nice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Tell me more about that. I want to hear more about that.

[Sarah]

Just I think sometimes he's afraid to upset the apple cart. And I don't want to make anybody mad because I don't want them to leave or I don't want to lose somebody, whether it's a client or an employee or whatever. So he's very careful to not step on any toes or to just where sometimes I think we've had this problem for X, you know, it's consistently happening. You need to address like it has to. You have to address it. And you can only be nice for so long. You need to be a little more stern with it. So I think he could be a little more stern. I'll say that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Where do you think she thrives in the business?

[Jeremy]

She loves running transactions and she loves building firm operations. So making sure the tools we're putting in place make sense for the team, making sure I'm intentional in those decisions and that we're not changing tools more often than we need to. For example, we just celebrated our 10 year anniversary, 10 year firm anniversary. We're actually celebrating 15 years married this fall, but 10 year firm anniversary in March and we use the same CRM for nine years and that has a lot to do do with Sarah saying just optimizing the tools we have and not chasing shiny tools, so to speak. And we just changed over to HubSpot in the last nine months and she how she negotiated that contract. I'd say negotiation with vendors is something she really thrives and enjoys it too.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So.

[Jeremy]

But just making sure we're being intentional in everything we do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you think that the things that you mentioned is that where she spends most of her time now running transactions.

[Jeremy]

Is where she spends most of her time and that's the thing that she won't let go of and she will verbally say that to anybody who asks. And it's the one thing I would like for her to learn how to teach somebody so that she can ask for help. Because if we want to take a family vacation, transactions don't stop for us to take a vacuum vacation. So we need to be able to teach somebody to at least fill in and help with those things so that she can truly disconnect. We really have one annual family vacation every year in February down to Florida. And it was really interesting this past February. Usually it's me who's inundated with legal work or things and that's on a daily basis and work in the mornings. Then we try to do something at the beach in the afternoon. This last February I was able to disconnect really well and Sarah was unable to. And that was a flip of the script that we hadn't seen before. So we need to build in backup support for her so that she's able.

[Tyson Mutrix]

To disconnect to where do you think he thrives in the business doing what he's doing?

[Sarah]

I think he really enjoys the business owner piece of it. When he was trying to build the business, run the business and do all of the client work. This is definitely the last year is probably the happiest I've ever seen him running the firm. He still enjoys doing the client work, but not having to be the one to do it, I think takes some of the burden off of him. He enjoys answering the phones and talking to potential new clients or talking to clients. He used to hate it, but he really enjoys talking to people. I think he likes to be more of the business owner, not necessarily the attorney.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Got it.

[Sarah]

That makes sense. He likes all the behind the scenes stuff.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. What triggered that change, do you think?

[Sarah]

I think when we started out, we had a very big referral source that sent all of their business to us. And in 2017 or 2018, we parted ways with them. So he never. We never had to do any. Anything. It was. We opened a firm, and we instantly had clients, and we never had to market. We never had to build a business. So when we actually had to start doing that, he realized how much more needed to be done that we weren't doing. And I think once he dug further into that and was able to see how fun some of that was, it just kind of transitioned. We were really busy when Covid hit with low interest rates, and it was like, we've got to do something we can't. And that's when we had to start. Hi. That's when we hired our first employee. And you start making these decisions gradually that you were never making. And it just. Every time you do it, it opens up a different piece that you have to worry about. Or so I think losing that and having to actually start building a firm. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's something that running a law firm with Sarah has taught you about the marriage?

[Jeremy]

Talk everything out, share, and then listen. Sometimes I am very quick to say what's on my mind, and I'm not as great of a listener, but if I listen to what's bothering her, I can get to a solution a whole lot faster if I. I just shut my mouth. Use two ears. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason. So just listen. Hear her out, what her concerns are. And sometimes it doesn't even require response. And taking that same approach in our marriage, Having a little eureka moment in real time here probably would serve me really well to listen more than I talk sometimes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's good advice for everybody, really. What's something running a law firm with Jeremy has taught you about your marriage?

[Sarah]

I. I think it's a lot stronger than either one of us realized it was. We work together all day. I mean, he's in the room next to me all day long. We then see each other all the time. We spend a lot of time together. And we're not annoyed with each other that I guess. I'm not annoyed with him. I can't speak for him. But I think it's definitely strong. And not a lot of people could do this, I don't think.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Last question. You made it. And then the. The real fun starts when we get the two of you together. But what is one thing you wish that Sarah really understood about how you operate?

[Jeremy]

I think she understands me 100 and totally. I don't think there's anything for her to learn. She does a really good job of letting me go off in the wilderness and explore when I need to, but also rating me in when I'm gotten astray, off the trail too far and saying, hey, Jeremy, your team needs you. You're spending a little bit, maybe too much time on this. Or just be aware. And it's not her telling me to stop doing something. Just say, hey, be aware of this thing that you're doing. Because sometimes it's easy to get distracted. So I think after being together 19 years or so and married for 15, I'm really, really, really lucky to get to run a law firm with my wife. This is a really hard thing to do, and it would be exponentially harder if I didn't have Sarah by myself.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Last question. So you made it to this point. Congratulations. What's one thing you wish Jeremy really understood about how you operate?

[Sarah]

I wish that he understood that I am a very. I like heads down. I don't like distractions. I have to focus. So if I'm in the middle of doing something and he comes in and starts talking about something else, and I'm guilty of it, too, but he'll want to start talking about marketing when I'm in the middle of putting together a document and I can't switch from one to the other as quickly. So I think that, yeah, I just. I need. I need quiet and don't be bothered.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And, yeah, I want to know, like, when we get into some of this stuff, it's really to build you all up. It's not. I had some fun with some of the questions, but it's really to build you all up and help you all out. So even though some of the questions were kind of challenging, just know that they're coming from a good place, okay? Just. Just know that. All right. So when it comes to success, I did find it interesting. You all basically said the same thing. It was almost identical how you all describe success. So I thought that that was really good. I even tried to challenge Jeremy a little bit by tempting him about money. And he said, basically, you'll have already given up more money to fulfill your all's. Life and, you know, spend time with family and with each other and all that kind of stuff. So I thought that was kind of interesting. That was very, very good. The one big change. Okay, Sarah, do you remember what you said, what you. What you would change?

[Sarah]

No, I kind of blacked out during the whole thing, to be completely honest. My anxiety was super high.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You and. Sorry about that. You wanted to. You wanted more support so you can focus on marketing. Jeremy, do you remember what you said?

[Jeremy]

One big thing I would change about the firm. Enlighten me. We talked about a few different changes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Once more leads focused on business growth input. So it sounds like you both want to focus more on marketing. Is that, that's, Is that right?

[Jeremy]

I think yes. Because the vision that we prepared last fall to make the financial goals achievable are going to require more volume and more. More business. And we strongly believe we have the systems and processes in place to serve more Iowans. So it's only recently become a focus. And I will give Sarah a lot of credit. She has said we are not the ones to produce content and do the marketing, but we want to drive the ideas and the concepts around it, but we want somebody else to do it. And for her to admit, because for a long time I thought she wanted to do marketing for the firm. And it wasn't until what last six or nine months that you were able to say out loud, no, I don't want to be the one to do it.

[Sarah]

Don't want to do. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sarah, do you agree with that?

[Sarah]

Yes. I didn't. I thought I wanted to be the one to do all the social media content and, and whatnot. And that was taking too much of my time and I was not the right person to do that. I want to be able to do other marketing, whether it's getting out and meeting people or just different types of marketing. Not this. Not the social media, though.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So there's something that, Sarah, you said about Jeremy, that I was, I was kind of. I wasn't floored by, but I was. It was very interesting to me. And you said over the last. I think you said over the last year.

[Sarah]

Said.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You may have said 18 months maybe, but about your. It's. It's the happiest you've. You've ever. You've seen Jeremy. I don't know if it was ever, but in a while. And so you want to talk about that a little bit, Sarah?

[Sarah]

Yeah. So just running the firm, being, having the help and the capacity to be able to do things that he enjoys doing. He enjoys being an attorney, but he really enjoys working on the business and growing the business. And over the last year, having the help in place to allow him to do that.

[Jeremy]

It's.

[Sarah]

He's just happier. He's. He's enjoying what he's doing. It's not, I don't know, annoyed or, you know, I have to do all this. I have to read abstracts. I'm trying to do a million different things. He's just a lot more relaxed and happy.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How does it feel hearing that, Jeremy?

[Jeremy]

That's awesome. I think she's right, too. We have swam through the mud a little bit and made bad hires, but fixed address those and fixed those. And I think we have a really awesome team in place right now that has really shined and freed me up to where when I'm deciding what my priorities are for a day, not very often are they focused on client work. Yes, I do client work every day to some level, but the demands of my time are not high. So I get to spend a good amount of my focus on innovating and improving the platform that we're building here so that all of our team members can really rise and shine and be successful and we, we can hit those, hit those goals that we've set out in the firm vision.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So, Jeremy, you had said something about Sarah, about how you felt you kind of needed to get her some more help so she could do more of the things that she should be doing and that she would want to do. You want to talk a little bit about that?

[Jeremy]

Sarah is so fantastic at everything she does and she trusts herself above everybody else. And it's not to say she doesn't trust and ask others for help, but she can. She knows and she. I think she would agree that learning to ask for help is something that she wants to continue to work on and an opportunity for improvement, because that's something I learned over the last couple years and she probably sees how much it's freed me up. I gave the experience of our Florida vacation this last February where our roles kind of flipped. It wasn't me that was. I was actually able to disconnect for the first time. And you got pulled into the mud on a daily basis. And we need to find a way to get you some backup support so that you can disconnect also, because, yeah, our roles flipped there, and that was bizarre for us to see in real time time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So. And I don't want to read too much into this, but it does seem as, as Jeremy, as you've gotten the last year happier. It seems like it may have. Sarah may have had more stress. And Sarah, is that. Am I reading that right or am I reading too much into this?

[Sarah]

I'd say that's accurate, but I, I put a lot of it on myself. I'm. I am very much show a control. I have to be in control. I prefer to be in control. I think it's very hard for me to let go of the client stuff that I do because ultimately it is our name out there and I have to find somebody that I can trust and I'm willing to let take care of the client stuff. I don't know if that's a flaw or a strength. I'm not. I'm not sure. But I need to do better about letting go and sharing some of the tasks.

[Jeremy]

And I think over the last three months or so we had a team member leave and Sarah really stepped up to the plate to fill that void so that we could dig into that part of the firm and understand what was happening a and then compare that to what we thought or expected to be happening and figure out why that gap existed and improve that part of the processes. We didn't want to just go out and hire somebody to put them back in that role if the workflows and processes weren't occurring the way we wanted them to. So Sarah's really stepped up to the plate, filled in that gap and really identified how that needs to look. And then I'm looking at automations to see what parts of that role can we improve and create automations and use technology for so that when we do hire another human being, we will redefine what that role is and be really specific as to what their, their job requirements are, their job scorecard looks like, and how we evaluate their effectiveness.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Gotcha. And by the way, I will make sure I'm very clear. And I don't think any of us mean that, that Jeremy's increase in happiness has caused Sarah's decrease. But I'm just. What I'd like to know is Sarah, now you. I think you kind of hinted at this is more like kind of trusting and delegating and all that. And is there anything that you think you could focus on to. To. To try to get to, I guess, lower your stress level down other than. Other than the delegation part of it, like what needs to happen for you to kind of get to a place where you are less stressed?

[Sarah]

I'm not the type of person that's ever going to be less stressed. I think there's just different types of stress.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's fair.

[Sarah]

I need to get help and I feel like this is a recurring thing that I say, but I need to know that we have the systems and processes in place for that help to be successful. Again, like Jeremy said, we can't go hire somebody right now and have them help because we need to make sure it's being done right. I don't know if that answers the question.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It does, it does. Okay, so here's one that I really want to talk about with the two of you is I think there might be a disconnect between what the firm, the vision of the firm in 15 years. I think maybe because Sarah, you talked about how you kind of want to keep things the same and these could be the same. I think Jeremy, you. You're goal vision seemed a little bit bigger. I know that the. You had talked about being the. I'm trying to look at the wording, find the wording here. It's like the number one client service firm in Iowa or something. I think is maybe the way we.

[Jeremy]

Want to provide the best client experience for buyers and sellers in the state of Iowa. Not necessarily to the most Iowans, but more Iowans. And we're currently helping.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. Do you think that that is consistent with. With Sarah's view of. Of kind of wanting to keep the thing things the same as they are now?

[Jeremy]

100%. Because I think we could do that with the existing team members we have in place or thereabouts, give or take, I mean, add one or two. But the way that technology is changing on a daily basis right now, we will never use technology to cause us to reduce the size of our team. But our team members will be continuing and they are currently finding themselves moving into more client facing roles because that's how we create the client experience. And that's something that technology cannot do for us. So we have to create that human connection. And when we find team members and they match and exude our core values, those are really fun people for Sarah and I to work with. So we absolutely can do more than any other firm can do with fewer human beings and we can do it better.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And Sarah, I don't want to sell you short. Did I. Did I accurately describe how you wanted things or is. Would you change anything of what I said? Because I want to make sure that I describe your perspective the right way.

[Sarah]

No. I mean, my biggest thing was we don't want to become necessarily a bigger law firm. And I think Jeremy understands where I'm coming From because the bigger law firms have the worst client experience or even working with them, it's not enjoyable. And I think those two go hand in hand. We're saying the same thing.

[Jeremy]

And bigger doesn't necessarily mean better or more financial success either. If my role is changing from innovating and connecting with our team members to managing 25 people. I've heard horror stories of firms that grow, but the owner's take home stays the same. So don't grow for the sake of growth, but really back to our core grounds. Be intentional in everything we do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, I'm going to shift gears a little bit. So, Sarah and Jeremy, I asked you both who the boss of the firm was. Jeremy, don't give any more. Just. I just want you to say a name. Okay. Who do you think Sarah said was the boss?

[Jeremy]

She. She probably said I'm the boss.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. Sarah, who do you think Jeremy said was the boss?

[Sarah]

Me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So yes, now you said it was funny because I think you actually both agree with each other. You just came to different. The. Because Jeremy, you said ultimately, because you're the lawyer, you, you, you're. You make the final say. Sarah, you said. Jeremy, he ends up, you know, he, he ultimately has the final say. But Jeremy, you said that Sarah's actually the boss. But you had. Because you're the lawyer, you make the final. You have to make the final say. But Sarah, you said something. I, I think something like along the lines, I hate to admit this, but probably Jeremy, because he has the final say. So do you want to talk more about that?

[Sarah]

Yeah, I mean, I think my opinion is very highly valued for multiple reasons, my position in the firm, what I do in the firm. And then I'm also his wife. So there's different levels of trust and reasoning there. And I think the type of conversation he can have with me when it comes to decisions is a lot different than most business owners maybe have with other C suite type positions. Because again, I'm his wife, so I can speak a little more freely or maybe push back more or less in a way that maybe an employee wouldn't. In the end, he has the final say. But I think we work together to get to that final say through either. Most of the time, not fun conversations because we do speak a lot freer to one another than maybe somebody else.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So speaking of that, it's funny how when I asked about any topic about disagreements or whatever, and it's, it's really interesting because the, it sounds like you all just kind of, you almost like get over it and move on. Right. But it's funny how you both said that work is kind of what allows you to kind of move through it. Because Sarah, you talked about how, like, you're, like, even though you might be a little frustrated, you have to go in there and ask a client question, and it kind of helps you all move forward. And Jeremy, you said something very similar, so I thought that was really interesting. But would you all agree it's kind of one of those things where you just kind of. You have your frustration, you have a disagreement, you kind of move on, or do you think. Think you have to kind of go through a process?

[Jeremy]

I think, like I said, I think the work and the. Are. The fact that we have to interact and we can't stay mad at each other or we can't. We at least can't stay silent with each other forces us to figure it out and address it. And usually, I mean, so that client question that she or I has, has for the other person will open the door to that conversation, and we'll get that answered, and then one of us will say, okay about that argument, and then we'll just flush it out and we'll just talk and it'll. And it'll be so it forces us to address it, and we can't avoid it. At least that's how we've used it or how it's happened or progressed for us.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sarah, what do you have to say.

[Sarah]

As you're sitting here talking about this? I thought of the. A different one word for Jeremy, and I'm really mad at it. Impulsive. Because he. This is probably where a majority of our arguments come from. He will just, like, start doing something, and I'm like. And then we get an argument. Because I'm like, this is so. Like, what are you doing? This is in. And then we go through it, and then we sit down and I'm like, do you understand why I feel this way? And usually by the end of it, he's changed his mind. He's making the final decision, but it's not what it was supposed to be, so. Or what it was initially going to be. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, we talk. We do talk things through.

[Jeremy]

We should have had a video camera last summer. When I first brought up the idea of moving from streak to HubSpot, to the ensuing three months of conversations that occurred before Sarah said, yes, we can move to HubSpot, or yes, I'm on board and understand where you're coming from. It. Those were difficult, hard, adversarial. Conversations at times that she and I had behind the scenes. The team had no idea occurred. But it was really, really well thought out. And we both agreed with the direction before we made a decision to move forward.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I find it very interesting, like, some of the common themes that have come up. But the word. The first word you had instead of impulsive was for Jeremy, sporadic. Jeremy, your word for Sarah was focused. But there was. When I got into the way you all butt heads, then also there was another one about, like, one thing you'd like the other to stop doing. It was very. They were very similar things. A lot of it came down to Jeremy's sporadic ness. I don't know, his impulsiveness, but also Sarah's desire to want to have some focus. Focus. And even Jeremy, you acknowledge this, that sometimes you're getting into the AI and interrupting Sarah. Sarah doesn't like to be interrupted. I know that. That. That seems like she kind of wants to focus on things. So it does seem like that can sometimes cause a little bit of. A little bit of contention between the two of you. But it's. What's interesting is you both know each other, though. You both know that about each other. Jeremy, you even said you should not interrupt her as much, I think is what you had said. And then. But Sarah, you also had talked. You acknowledged the fact that you like what he's doing because it's helped relieving some of the pressure. So you all know each other very, very well. You all know kind of the things that you know yourselves really, really well. I just think it's really interesting that the dynamic is really interesting.

[Jeremy]

Sometimes I just have to say stuff out loud that I'm working on to see if she has an opinion or wants input on something. And it might irritate her and she might not be in the right brain spirit space to hear it. But if I say it a couple of times, say, hey, we're working on a voice AI agent and it's going to fill this role. That's. That's an opportunity. Say, hey, that sounds really cool. I want to be a part of that. Or, okay, Jeremy, whatever. And then I'll just continue to work on it, learn on it, learn about it. And then I'll come back, say, hey, this is ready for testing. Here's the number. I've got these other people testing. And that could be an opportunity for her to jump in again or say, okay, Jerry, whatever. And this is, oh, okay, I'm launching it on Monday. Here's another chance for you to have input. So it's just creating opportunities for conversation. And for her to sometimes put up a stop sign, say, hey, no, that's a stupid idea, Jeremy. Let's talk through that. Talk that through. And that occurs sometimes too.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. All right, so we're over time, but I'm gonna. There's two other things I want to talk to you about which I thought were pretty interesting things, so just bear with me because I. There was. There's a couple good things that had been brought up, and one of them is the rules. What are the rules about talking about work at home? And so, Sarah, are there any rules? Sarah?

[Sarah]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And Jeremy says there are. There are rules. No work in the bedroom, no laptops in the bedroom. And then I think it was no work after 7:30. Is that one of the other ones?

[Jeremy]

We try not to have a lot of work conversations outside of normal hours, but it does happen. But yeah, we've talked. We've specifically said no laptops in the bedroom. Also, ask her who the number one rule breaker that is.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Who's the number one rule breaker, Sarah?

[Sarah]

Jeremy. Because I wasn't aware that we had rules.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Hey, Jeremy, who's the number one rule breaker? My laptop stays right here.

[Jeremy]

Sarah. Absolutely. Is I. Who works late nights the most?

[Sarah]

I do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And that's what you said, Jeremy. Yeah. So I figured I'd stir the pot a little bit on that one. So that was fun. I thought that was a really interesting one. All right. And then the last one, I'll end on this one. This is a good way of ending this conversation. So it's on a positive note, I promise. I just gotta get to. I want to make sure I've got the wording right.

[Jeremy]

This has all been positive.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think it's. I think it's. You're both being really fun about it too. So, Jeremy, what's one thing Sarah is amazing at? That you'll never be able to match.

[Jeremy]

Her ability to connect with other people. People just generally like Sarah. And I am the beneficiary of that. So whether it's Ashley Johnson who joined our team coming up on her five year anniversary and she left the biggest firm in the state to join just Sarah and I, that occurred, I'm positive because Sarah came to that first interview with me and Sarah and Ashley connected and actually took a chance on us, or whether it's when we went and got this new. Well, the very first lender that we ever secured as a referral source, that occurred because Sarah said, what the hell, let's reach out and ask. If you, if you don't, don't ask. The answer is no. And then she can, she made a connection, opened a door. And just her ability to connect with other, other human beings is something I will never touch, be able to get near.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, same question for you, Sarah. What's one thing that Jeremy is amazing at that you'll never be able to match?

[Sarah]

I would say his drive. He's a very determined individual and he has, when he puts his mind to something or he wants to do something, he, he does it. It's not half assed. It's I'm going to do this. He's consistent and he does it every morning and makes it a priority. Or every time I'm thinking ice baths, he does an ice bath. Every. That's just something I don't have the drive to do. I would, oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to, you know, and then I do it one time and be like, screw, this is too cold. I'm not doing this again. Or so. He is very determined and he has drive and that's not something that a lot of people have. But if, if he's going to do something, he's going to do it right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I love it. All right, well, thank you both for doing this. Hopefully you had fun. I enjoyed it a lot. So. Especially because I know Jeremy so well. So it's, but it's just kind of fun and you've both been great sports about so thank you for doing this now.

[Jeremy]

This was super fun. I appreciate you, Tyson.

[Sarah]

Thank foreign.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you been hurt by sloppy bookkeeping? Tired of chasing down payments from clients? Is managing your billing turning into a full time job? Our trusted partners at Collect are ready to simplify your invoicing, accounting, client management and collections. All at an affordable flat rate with no surprise, hourly charges. Don't let financial headaches hold you back. Contact Kollect. That's Kollect with a K at Collect Legal. Or call them at 312-825-7013 collect legal. Because you shouldn't have to suffer in silence.

[Unknown]

If you've been feeling like your firm is doing fine, but you know there's more potential you haven't tapped into yet. This is for you. Max.com 2025 is two powerful days designed to help you break through that plateau. We've curated a lineup of smart, generous law firm owners who are actually in it, sharing exactly what's working inside their firms. No fluff, no gatekeeping, just real strategies. You can take back to the office and implement, you'll walk away with clarity, renewed energy, and a plan to build the kind of firm that truly supports the life you want. And you'll save $500 off general admission. When you grab your ticket Today, head to maxlawcon.com and lock in your spot. We'll see you there.