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Maximum Lawyer
Couples Series: Strategy, Systems, and Staying Aligned with Maggie and Alex Shahrestani
00:49:52
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- [00:01]
Tyson Mutrix
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- [01:20]
Alex Shirostani
This is maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.
- [01:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Today we're continuing our special three part series where I talk to couples who not only live together but run law firms together. We wanted to know what that looked like behind the scenes, where they're aligned, where they butt heads and how they handle the business and the marriage at the same time. For each episode, I interview both partners separately from first and then bring them together at the end to see what happens when they hear each other's answers. It's raw, it's honest, and some of the answers are going to surprise you. But it's all about getting them together on the same page to grow their business as a unified front. Today you're going to meet Alex and Maggie. First up is Alex Shirostani who is the managing partner at Promise Legal. He's got a strong focus on tech and innovation in the legal space. During our conversation, we talk about decision making frameworks, managing expectations and what it means to lead alongside someone you're building a life with. Then I sat down with Maggie, also a partner at Promise Legal, and she brings a systems focused approach to the firm's operations and client experience. We talk about boundaries, trust and how she thinks about her role not just as a partner in the firm, but as a partner in the bigger picture. There are A lot of great takeaways that I'm excited for you to hear with this one. So let's get started.
- [02:47]
Alex Shirostani
No marriages were harmed in the making.
- [02:48]
Maggie Shirostani
Of this podcast episode.
- [02:51]
Tyson Mutrix
First question is, what does success look like to you?
- [02:57]
Maggie Shirostani
So I think for me personally, success looks like engagement, right? Like being. Being engaged with your life and feeling interested in what you're doing. Like, I think that's really important to me. I don't ever want to feel like I'm just on rails, not, like, excited about what I'm doing.
- [03:15]
Tyson Mutrix
What does success look like to you?
- [03:18]
Alex Shirostani
Success to me is financial independence and freedom and the ability to step away from work and live my life. We built the firm around having kids and spending time with our family and friends. So that is. Is the. The true metric of success for us.
- [03:37]
Tyson Mutrix
What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?
- [03:43]
Maggie Shirostani
So I think for me, one thing that I would change is how do I. How do I explain this? So I think. I think we're very tech focused as a firm, and I think that's a big strength of ours. I think something that's something that Alex brings to the table that a lot of attorneys don't. One thing I worry about, and I think this is just sort of pervasive in our society. But how do you keep the same level of, like, personal engagement with clients when you're relying so much on tech? And one way I see of kind of getting around that and maintaining really good relationships is being a firm that's not just law, but also takes a broader perspective on things. So, for instance, you know, I know there are, like, consulting groups out there that are run by lawyers that kind of consult on other aspects of the business as well as on strictly legal issues. And I think that would be a really cool value add for us if we could almost pick an industry and really build that expertise in that industry and be able to come alongside folks as counselors. Beyond just strictly legal issues.
- [04:46]
Tyson Mutrix
What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?
- [04:53]
Alex Shirostani
I think I would probably hire more people.
- [04:56]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, interesting. I may have to get into that in the joint session. All right, so I'm gonna give you a magic wand, and you get to. You get to decide what the firm likes, looks like in 15 years. Describe what it looks like.
- [05:09]
Maggie Shirostani
Oh, man. I think what I sort of imagine is kind of along the same lines of what I was just saying, but with a bunch of different industries Right. So for example, if we started off in like tech startups, we would have kind of a hub that is, you know, from A to Z, what every tech startup needs. You'd have your financial counselors, you'd have your, your part time CFOs, you'd have your lawyers, you'd have marketing folks. Basically like a one stop shop for somebody who's trying to spin up a company. And then you'd also have that in other industries. So maybe like a healthcare one or you know, government. Like I would love to be. Yeah, I guess maybe it's over ambitious, but I would love to have that expertise built out in a bunch of different areas and feel like what we offer to clients is kind of someone who's walking alongside them and helping them figure out what they need to do in a, in a comprehensive, kind of holistic way. And I would also really love to see the like really positive and ongoing relationships with our clients beyond just individual transactions. Right. As opposed to them just coming to us for a contract. You know, it's an ongoing conversation and relationship.
- [06:26]
Tyson Mutrix
All right, so you, I'm going to put you in charge. You have a magic wand. Right. And you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years.
- [06:34]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah.
- [06:34]
Tyson Mutrix
Describe what it looks like.
- [06:36]
Alex Shirostani
Oh man, that's. Let me paint you a picture. So kind of a hub and spoke model where we pop up offices around teams that are supported by our brand and technology along with guidance from the central office. So I imagine that would be tied to specific practice areas and niches, more so than geographic regions. And the network would be a somewhat like loose large law firm association. Right. So you still have the resources of being able to call on a colleague, but without all of the, you know, the ick factor that comes from a large law firm.
- [07:18]
Tyson Mutrix
Is there a certain size that you want to get to?
- [07:21]
Alex Shirostani
Oh, I mean, so the driving force, like everyone goes to law school because they want to do something more than just make money. I think there's lots of better ways to make money than being a lawyer. So yeah, I would like to move the needle on the justice gap. So whatever size that is to like change something about the practice of law, that means that more people get access to legal services. I think that's the size I need to hit. And you know, that might be, it might not be about the size of the firm, it might be about the impact we can have with our processes.
- [07:58]
Tyson Mutrix
All right. We're going to transition into roles and power dynamics a little bit.
- [08:04]
Maggie Shirostani
That sounds scary.
- [08:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Who's the Boss of the firm?
- [08:08]
Maggie Shirostani
Alex, for sure. I think in large part because really, I think starting the firm was more his vision than mine. Although I've always tried to be as supportive as I can, he. I still defer to him on most of the high level, kind of strategic questions.
- [08:24]
Tyson Mutrix
What do you think he said?
- [08:26]
Maggie Shirostani
I think he said him as well.
- [08:28]
Tyson Mutrix
Who's the boss of the firm?
- [08:30]
Alex Shirostani
Me. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure she'll agree, but we'll see.
- [08:34]
Tyson Mutrix
We'll see. We're gonna find out very soon. Next question. How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?
- [08:40]
Maggie Shirostani
I think I was looking for more flexibility. So he was. I was working in house at a company. He was trying to build the firm, you know, right out of. Right out of school, right out of law school. And I. Oh yeah, I was having. I was having some dissatisfaction at work generally. So I was looking for a change. And it. We both kind of floated, like, what if I just joined the firm for a while to like, help and like, figure out next steps and then I guess the rest is history.
- [09:13]
Tyson Mutrix
Nice. How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?
- [09:18]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, so this was pre Covid. I had launched the firm right out of law school, which was always the goal, you know, much to the chagrin of my administration. My wife Maggie was really supportive of this plan from the get go. And then one day she came home from her in house job and she saw me in my pajamas watching Netflix while I worked on a client matter. And she was like, I want to do that too. And so the firm was growing at a rapid clip and it was a viable option for us. And so she put in her notice and she joined the Firm officially on April 1 of 20. 2020.
- [09:57]
Tyson Mutrix
What's one thing you wish Alex would stop doing in the business?
- [10:01]
Maggie Shirostani
Oh, goodness. I don't think he's doing anything that I would want him to stop. But I think, I think he is. He is a person who is full of ideas, and I think that can sometimes come at the expense of focus. So I think if he were able to, you know, take the 20 things that he's really excited about and somehow just forget about 15 of them, I think we'd be able to make more progress on the. On the five that remain.
- [10:30]
Tyson Mutrix
Sort of like that shiny object syndrome.
- [10:32]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah, a little bit. And it's like, it's all great, but it's like we only have limited time, you know, so. But I think he has, he has trouble calling those. Those Things like making that list shorter. But it's also, you know, what makes him him. So I sort of love it about him, too. It's. It's hard.
- [10:50]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, so from a business standpoint, what's one thing you wish Maggie would stop doing?
- [10:56]
Alex Shirostani
I think. You know, I hesitate to say this because I think we actually have a really good working dynamic where I like doing some stuff and she doesn't like it and vice versa, but I wish she had a bigger appetite for risk in the firm. Okay, so a little bit less. A little less cautious, I would say.
- [11:18]
Tyson Mutrix
You want to elaborate a little bit on that?
- [11:19]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah. Like, I. She's got that lawyer personality of, like, wanting to know the answer to things. Right. Like, she has to know everything cold before she'll take a step versus taking a leap of faith. So, for example, bringing on our first. Our first attorney took a really long time. Bringing on our first VA took a really long time. And I think if I had had my way, we would have. We would have taken that leap a little faster.
- [11:45]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay. Yeah. That's something maybe we'll want to discuss in a little bit. Describe Alex's work style in one word.
- [11:52]
Maggie Shirostani
Creative.
- [11:53]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, explain what you mean.
- [11:55]
Maggie Shirostani
His work style is all about, like, bursts. Like, he has, like, a burst of energy because he's inspired by something. He gets it done. Then he is, like, kind of maybe doing something else and then gets another burst of inspiration and jumps to that other thing to work on it. So it's just. Yeah, it's not like, one thing. Consider you could never write down. Like, here's what Alex is going to be doing from 9am to 5pm it's because it's going to change. Like, there's. There's no way that he's going to stick to that schedule.
- [12:31]
Tyson Mutrix
Describe Maggie's work style in one word.
- [12:35]
Alex Shirostani
Methodical.
- [12:36]
Tyson Mutrix
Now explain what you mean by that.
- [12:37]
Alex Shirostani
So it's. It's very much a process and a very thorough one. So she'll identify an issue, she'll think through the entirety of the issue and then attack each piece of it piecemeal. So whether that's, you know, drafting some documents for a client or entering a negotiation, she will walk through A to Z everything that's gonna happen in her head before she sits down and does the work, and then she walks through each and every step.
- [13:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Sounds like a good thing. That's good.
- [13:07]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, it is. Yeah. For. For practicing law.
- [13:11]
Tyson Mutrix
Has that caused any issues, though, with her being so methodical?
- [13:14]
Alex Shirostani
It did initially. So when she first came on board, we Tried to do everything 50, 50, right. Like so client intake and legal work and tried to split it to make it feel like we were more of a team. And then we sort of learned a lesson that, you know, the stuff I hate is the stuff she loves, including, you know, some, to some extent, the practice of life law. Like, I like the really intricate questions of like technology law and I'm happy to do all that stuff there, but in terms of like running a business or doing like rote legal work, I don't like it as much. So when she brings that methodical approach, it's to the stuff that she is more excited to do. And so yeah, initially it was a problem, but like we sort of sorted that out after about a year or two of like dabbling in each other's lanes and. And so I would say we're at a pretty good, a pretty good balance at this point.
- [14:05]
Tyson Mutrix
What's one way you and Alex butt heads at work?
- [14:08]
Maggie Shirostani
I think I'm more risk averse. So I think when it comes to making decisions about the firm, I guess the most negative way to put it is that, you know, I base he can feel like I'm just criticizing any thing that he decides to do. Really, for me, it's like, yeah, I'm just risk averse. So I ask all of the questions like, what's the worst that could go wrong? Like usually that's how we move forward. Right. Is like we get to what's the absolute worst that could happen? And I get comfortable with that and then we can kind of, then we can kind of move forward. But yeah, so like when it came to like hiring people or I guess that was like the biggest one was like when we first started hiring folks, I was kind of dragging my feet about that. Yeah, I think that's the biggest.
- [14:50]
Tyson Mutrix
What's one way you and Maggie butt heads at work?
- [14:53]
Alex Shirostani
I think it's the primary way is about how much time we spend working. So there's, there's like a mutual respect for like, hey, we need to get stuff done. But also, like I said earlier, the whole point of building the firm was so we could have time for family and, and life and things around us. But you know, when you're the owner of a firm, the buck stops with you. And I think I have a harder time stepping away from work sometimes. And I think that's probably the biggest point of contention that we currently have. Have.
- [15:25]
Tyson Mutrix
Gotcha. The next question is actually what's the biggest business decision you've disagreed on? And how did it Play out.
- [15:31]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah, I think it was hiring folks. I'm very much like a, Give me a recipe and I'll, and I'll do the recipe. Right. Like I, I want to know like, what is the exact amount of revenue that I should be making before I bring on, you know, a person to help? And obviously there's no perfect answer to that. And Alex's thought was, let's bring on someone sooner so I can spend more time on business development. We can really like push things when it comes to growth. And I'm over here, like I, I do more of our, our home finances as well. So I'm over here like, no, I need, we can't give away that money. I need that money. You know, I need that money to pay for X, Y and Z. That was really the biggest one. And I think what it ultimately came down to was a little bit of a leap of faith on my part because I want Alex to feel like he is putting everything he can into this business because it's his dream. Right. And I don't want like 15 years down the road, whatever happens with the business, I don't want to feel like he didn't give it his best shot.
- [16:29]
Tyson Mutrix
What's the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on and how did it play out? In the end?
- [16:36]
Alex Shirostani
It was the hiring question. So hiring our first attorney, there was a lot of pushback initially. Like, hey, we know we don't have enough of a revenue stream to like justify this. Like, it's scary to like give up some of your revenue to, to like pay somebody. And, and my pushback was like, well, we don't have the time to like go and do other stuff if we're like just only doing the legal work. And so that was, this was a while ago now, but that was a long dispute and eventually we brought somebody on. I think there were some, some things that I was wrong about. So like we're trying to be like evenhanded about how we compensate our attorneys. And I think I was too even handed with our first hire or two. And it was not really a sustainable financial arrangement. So ultimately we brought someone on. But there were some, some hiccups along the way that I think were the things Maggie was afraid of.
- [17:38]
Tyson Mutrix
That's fair. What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non working hours?
- [17:44]
Maggie Shirostani
Oh yeah, it's funny you bring that up. I feel like that's not so much something that comes up anymore. It used to a lot because it would feel like we were always Talking about work like it would be the default thing on our minds now. I think with the kids and everything, like it's. So the short answer is there is no rule. Like it all just gets talked about all at once. I think honestly, what has suffered is like talk of anything other than work or kids. Like, I think that's most of our conversations are work or kids or politics, frankly, which is like our. Maybe the most relaxing of the of the three, because we're not going to disagree. We're just going to vent to each other. But yeah, there is no rule. Maybe there should be, but there's not at the moment.
- [18:31]
Tyson Mutrix
Were there ever rules?
- [18:33]
Maggie Shirostani
Yes. So it used to be that this was kind of pre kids, but it used to be that we would set aside particular times for work. Because I was feeling, I think Alex maybe felt a little less this way, but I was feeling like I don't just want to talk about work. Like I want to make sure we're talking about other things in our relationship and I want to make sure that we. Yeah, we're like cultivating our personal relationship and not just our professional one.
- [18:57]
Tyson Mutrix
Who. Who broke the rules the most?
- [18:59]
Maggie Shirostani
Alex, definitely. Yeah, for sure.
- [19:03]
Tyson Mutrix
What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non work hours?
- [19:09]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, so this has become less of an issue only because we have three toddlers. So it's like that. That time is like so limited already that it just. We. We have to get all of our conversations in at once. But it was an issue where we would go out on dates and like, I realized, oh, if I bring my phone, I tend to like, get wrapped up in work stuff. So I started leaving my phone in the center console of the car. That way, like, I could be like fully present. And, you know, there was a little bit of that on her side as well, depending on like how, you know, involved she is in a particular problem. But yeah, like I said, with the toddlers, it's been. It's been less of an issue. It's more of like, you know, all hands on deck at all times right now. So those rules have sort of relaxed a little bit.
- [19:57]
Tyson Mutrix
When the rules were not relaxed, who broke the rules the most?
- [20:00]
Alex Shirostani
Certainly me. I did. I did my best. But you know, habits are hard to break. So, you know, I think. I think I did an okay job. But yeah, if anyone broke the rules, it was probably me.
- [20:12]
Tyson Mutrix
Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office or vice versa.
- [20:18]
Maggie Shirostani
Oh, goodness. A fight at home. So our fights are not like, they usually involve a lot of silence on my part. So I'm trying to think of a. I'm trying to think of, like, a particular fight, because it's not like we fight that much, but when we do, it's just an awkward couple of days, you know? Yeah, I can't think of, like, a particular. A particular fight. But what ultimately happens if. If it does affect our work day is that we just don't talk much that day. Right, right. Like, we talk to the kids, we do what we need to do for work, but we don't. We just don't talk much to each other about anything else.
- [20:54]
Tyson Mutrix
I think that's pretty standard. I think that's a normal. That's a normal response. All right, so now we're going to get into sticky one.
- [21:00]
Alex Shirostani
Okay.
- [21:00]
Tyson Mutrix
Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office or vice versa.
- [21:07]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah. Okay. So there was one. How long ago? This must have been like a year or two ago. And we were talking about revenue, and Maggie said something that I thought was unfair. Like, she. She feels like we should be bringing in a lot more revenue to be running our own firm. And the way she communicated it was like, to me, it sounded like, hey, you're failing. Which we, like, talked it out. And that was not really where things landed. But, yeah, that. That took the wind out of my sails for sure. For a couple of days, I was like, oh, man, like, I need to go do something else. Like, I need to close up shop. But, yeah, we sort of worked through it and we landed on like, no, this is. We've kind of, to some extent succeeded at what we set out to do.
- [21:59]
Tyson Mutrix
Are the arguments bigger from work or the. Are the home arguments bigger?
- [22:04]
Alex Shirostani
I think we're, like, pretty good about having these discussions. I would say the home arguments 10 to be the bigger ones. So we actually, like I said, we. We kind of are into doing different pieces of work. So I am more than happy to let her take over, you know, various aspects of the practice. And same. Same with her. The things that I like to do, she wants nothing to do with, which makes for a lot less headbutting at home is more often where it's going to come up.
- [22:32]
Tyson Mutrix
How would you describe Alex's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?
- [22:36]
Maggie Shirostani
I think he's. He's very hands off. Like, he gives. He gives the folks who work for him a lot of autonomy and respect, and I think they really appreciate that. And then he's one thing he's really, really good at, is being purposeful about pouring into folks. So he's always, you know, making sure that people have what they need to succeed. He's offering things like offering to help them, you know, network or, you know, I think he, he really goes out of his way to build people up, I think, and I think it's a big strength of his as a leader. In terms of what I would tweak, I don't know that I would tweak any of that. I mean, I think, I think in any organization you need folks like that and then you need folks who are like doing the more boring, like looking over people's shoulder, making sure quality standards are being met. And like, I think I kind of serve that role at our firm. I, and I think I wouldn't want to change what Alex is doing at all.
- [23:32]
Tyson Mutrix
How would you describe Maggie's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?
- [23:36]
Alex Shirostani
So she's got like a very traditional middle management leadership style. Like she knows how to keep processes running, how to stay on top of people. I actually, I don't know that I would change anything. And not because, not because like she's necessarily like perfect at what she's doing, but it's more that she brings a different style than I do and I think that's important. So like, we work with startup founders all the time and like most often the reason that they fail is they have blind spots about stuff. Like that's a bunch of founders that all do the same kind of thing. And I don't have a sense for like, I don't see what she brings to the table as a negative. I see it as like a thing that I don't have my head around quite as much. So if I were to say, like, she should change anything, I wouldn't know what, what to point out.
- [24:31]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, that's a good answer, especially since this is recorded. So that's nice. Where do you think Alex thrives in the business?
- [24:40]
Maggie Shirostani
He thrives on building things. So he, he gets bored with the day to day, I think. And that kind of takes, you can kind of see it take the wind out of his sails a little bit. But he really gets, he really comes alive and gets inspired when he's building out something new, whether that be a new tech tool for the firm or whether he's working on curating a program for. He runs the south by Southwest legal track every year and he builds out all of the programming for that. He's very, yeah, very creative, I think he thrives when there's something to be built.
- [25:16]
Tyson Mutrix
Do you think that that's. We're building things? Do you think that's where he spends most of his time in the firm?
- [25:22]
Maggie Shirostani
I think that's where he'd like to spend most of his time. I think it's probably a split between that and more of the day to day stuff. It's probably 50, 50. I think he does manage to put a lot of time into the stuff that he cares about. I think he's stubborn like that in a good way.
- [25:40]
Tyson Mutrix
Do you think he should be spending more time or less time building?
- [25:44]
Maggie Shirostani
I think he should be spending the same amount of time building less time on the other stuff that he does, like the administrative and the intake. And he should replace that other like 50% with marketing and like networking stuff.
- [26:02]
Tyson Mutrix
Interesting. Where do you think Maggie thrives in the business?
- [26:05]
Alex Shirostani
She's an excellent communicator. She's really good at delivering bad news. Well, I think she's very clear sighted as well. She doesn't get distracted very easily. So whatever the task is at hand, she finds a way to get it done. I think people like working with her. Like, I think she has a good communication style with our attorneys. She's good at communicating what needs to change, what needs to be done better. And for me, like, I think I get more heated and so like, I think like deferring to her on those things is, is like our best option. So that's, that's one of her strengths.
- [26:43]
Tyson Mutrix
Do you think that in her current role she spends enough time doing what she thrives at the most?
- [26:48]
Alex Shirostani
Yes, I would say maybe even too much. Like I would like to see her, this is not like about leadership or anything, but I would like to see her step more into a business development role alongside with me. I think she sees herself as not being good or capable in that, in that position. But I don't know, I just disagree with her. But it's like a leap she hasn't been willing to take.
- [27:14]
Tyson Mutrix
What is one thing you wish Alex really understood about how you operate?
- [27:18]
Maggie Shirostani
Oh man. I think he understands me pretty well. I think there are times, I think I've mentioned this already where it can feel like I'm criticizing and really I'm just trying to understand. Like, it's almost like I, I'm building a model in my head of like what's happening and I really want every piece of it right? So a conversation with me might go, hey, I have this idea. Well, what about this? What about this? What about that what about. It's like, not because I'm criticizing the idea, but because I'm trying to fully understand the idea. And the problem is that sometimes the idea is only in its early stages, stages of being built, and so there aren't answers. So I think I'm always hoping that he understands and also trying to change my tone a little, but hoping that he understands that that's interest, not critique.
- [28:04]
Tyson Mutrix
Excellent. What's one thing you wish that Maggie really understood about how you operate the.
- [28:11]
Alex Shirostani
Technology side of things? So I am a very tech heavy lawyer. I have a background in computer science and, like, it's my whole thing. I go on, like, speaking circuits, like, talking about how AI works and, like, demystifying it and talking about, you know, privacy and security and all of those things. And Maggie is an absolute Luddite. So she, she just. Her eyes glaze over. I have learned not to have these conversations with her. She's very polite about it, but. But, like, I've given up. Like, if, you know, if she can't figure out how to open an app on her phone, I know I'm tech support and, like, I just have to be okay with that. But, yeah, that is the one thing I wish she, you know, took a little bit more of an interest in is like, figuring out the tech or coming along on some of that journey with me.
- [29:01]
Tyson Mutrix
What's something running a law firm with Alex has taught you about your marriage?
- [29:05]
Maggie Shirostani
Oh, I think it's taught me that there is a lot of mutual respect in our marriage. Marriage. And it's hard. It's something to fall back on and rely on when other things aren't working very good.
- [29:20]
Tyson Mutrix
You made it to the last question. Okay, so congratulations. What's something running a law firm with Maggie has taught you about your marriage?
- [29:29]
Alex Shirostani
I think it's that thing of, you know, we have different strengths and, like, leaning into that is a good thing. Like, there are certain things that, you know, she's better at and certain things I'm better at, and it's. It's okay, right? Like, it's sort of. I think it's been actually, you know, thankfully a good thing for our marriage to work together, which I know is normally not the case. It's, it's like, often leads to butting of heads or you hear stories about people who, like, just. They can't stand to see each other at the end of the day because they're working together. But, yeah, we don't. We don't feel that way. And I think part of that is Recognizing like, oh, it's okay. It's okay for one of us to care about and take on the responsibility of a particular thing and not have to have the other person equally contribute to it. Like, that's okay. And I think that's been healthy.
- [30:18]
Tyson Mutrix
I've got lots of notes. Anya, I didn't. Morgan and Becca both have been listening in and taking notes. So we're going to go through your questions. We're going to do this in 10 minutes, so feel free to sugarcoat. This is very. This was fun for me. So the way you described success was really interesting. So, Maggie, you focused more on engaging, like, being engaged in your life. And then, Alex, you were talking about financial independence and freedom, which I think, in a way are the same thing. You just took different approaches at it. I guess the question I have for you, although, is this the first time you all have sat down and talked about this, or is this something that you've talked about in the past?
- [30:58]
Alex Shirostani
Oh, we've talked about it a lot.
- [31:00]
Maggie Shirostani
About what success looks like.
- [31:01]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah. Yeah. So when. When I. I think I mentioned this, but when I talk about financial independence, it's really the freedom to, like, spend time with family and everything, which for me is, like, the priority. So I can see why she might say, like, being engaged in her life. And, like, I think. I think you're right that it's about the same.
- [31:21]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah, I think it's. We. We've talked about it before, and it's, you know, I think we share a lot of the same priorities when it comes to work versus, you know, life outside of work.
- [31:31]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. And it definitely seemed like both of you are, like, you want to be engaged with your families and with each other, and I think that that's. I think that's pretty awesome. The. The big change. So, Maggie, what do you think Alex said? What do you think the big change that he thought you all should make in the firm?
- [31:45]
Maggie Shirostani
I have no idea. I don't know. Maybe. No, I don't know. What did she say?
- [31:52]
Alex Shirostani
You don't have any. I want to hear your guess.
- [31:54]
Maggie Shirostani
The only thing I could think is that, like, maybe doing things faster. I don't. I don't know.
- [32:02]
Alex Shirostani
That came up.
- [32:03]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah.
- [32:04]
Tyson Mutrix
Interesting. Yeah, that did come up. Hire more people is what. Is what Alex said. Alex, what do you. What do you think Maggie said?
- [32:12]
Alex Shirostani
Oh, that is a tough one. What does Maggie think we should do, which we should change in the firm?
- [32:18]
Maggie Shirostani
We've talked about it, but it was a. It was a fleeting moment in time that we talked about it because I had to do it, and then I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to make that.
- [32:29]
Alex Shirostani
Oh, do litigation. What do you want me to.
- [32:36]
Tyson Mutrix
So it was more of a more personal engagement with clients. And if I missed, by the way, if I misstate, either one of you just correct me or if you want to clarify. But it was really less of a tech focus and more of, like a. More of a personal focus with clients. Is that a fair way of putting it?
- [32:51]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah. And also the, like, holistic service thing. So beyond legal services, because I think. I think you and I both, like, really shine. Like, I know I'm the more traditional lawyer, but, like, also, we both are, like, very, like, interdisciplinary people, and I think that the firm could do really well as something like, more than a law firm. Like a consulting.
- [33:11]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah.
- [33:11]
Maggie Shirostani
Enterprise.
- [33:12]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, that's fair. I think we. We have talked about that, and, like, the execution is kind of problem because, like, it's.
- [33:19]
Maggie Shirostani
It.
- [33:19]
Alex Shirostani
It's taking on a whole another facet of, like, presenting yourself to people and trying not to, like, make it too messy.
- [33:26]
Maggie Shirostani
And it involves hiring people.
- [33:29]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
- [33:30]
Maggie Shirostani
So there's that.
- [33:33]
Tyson Mutrix
So that was one. Something I was going to get to. Because I think you both acknowledge that, Maggie, you had a resistance to hiring. But I think it's funny because you. You want more of that personal engagement with clients, and you have these. You like, you both have these grand ideas and everything, but it's going to require people, it sounds like. And so I guess, Maggie, what will it take for you to get over that hump to want to hire more people?
- [33:55]
Maggie Shirostani
I think it's. I mean, like, to be really frank, I think it's about being willing to leverage the firm. Like, I think it's actually about being willing to take out business debt, honestly.
- [34:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay.
- [34:05]
Maggie Shirostani
Because we are like, we're already in personal debt. I don't know. That's. Honestly. I think for me, it's a financial issue.
- [34:15]
Tyson Mutrix
So one of the individual questions that I. Because I had to. We had lots of questions that we wanted to ask, but with limited time, we had to kind of, like, really narrow it down. I was getting rid of really good questions that I thought. But one of the question I wanted to ask, and I can do it. I can ask in the joint session, is, do you all think you pay yourselves enough money?
- [34:32]
Alex Shirostani
I think I would say now we do. I think for the past year or so, or like the previous year or so, we had not been. And that was a Function of like how we had done our hiring and like how we had sort of structured compensation for our, for our team. Now I actually feel really solid about how we compensate ourselves.
- [34:55]
Maggie Shirostani
I would say that, you know, everyone would always love to make more money.
- [34:58]
Alex Shirostani
Right.
- [34:59]
Maggie Shirostani
Like you could always use more money. But I, I feel that given what we're trying to build, we pay ourselves an appropriate amount.
- [35:06]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that's good.
- [35:08]
Alex Shirostani
One of the things that we, we have talked about is like since, since we're like somewhat debt averse, we've taken on the perspective of like okay, well I guess that means we have to take some pay cuts here and there to avoid the debt in order to make things happen.
- [35:25]
Tyson Mutrix
I mean it sounds like a good fiscal decision to be honest with you. So that's, we'll see.
- [35:29]
Alex Shirostani
I'll get back to you in 30 years how it all went.
- [35:32]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, no kidding. So when it comes to like what the firm looks like in 15 years and I, I, I found the answers similar but different. And I, I, I want to kind of try to find a, a way to kind of bridge the gap because you know, Alex, you had more like this, these, you know, pop up offices and I don't know if that's the phrase you used or if that's one that hub and spoke. Right. Where you have these affiliations may have been the word that you used with these other, I don't know if there are other entities, other firms or whatever. And, but Maggie, your, your approach was, it sounded similar but you wanted to be in multiple industries and so help me, help me set a sort of reconcile that. Are you will, is this something you all are on the same page on this something you discussed or are these two visions, two separate visions for what you want the firm to be?
- [36:19]
Maggie Shirostani
I think they are different visions but I think we're at the point where both of us are open to either. Right. It's like a matter of like how.
- [36:28]
Alex Shirostani
Are things going to play out for different industries? Are you talking about different practice areas?
- [36:33]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah, well, kind of like in line with the whole like consulting thing.
- [36:37]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah.
- [36:38]
Maggie Shirostani
Having like healthcare consulting and tech startup consulting and whatever else, you know.
- [36:44]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, yeah, I think it's similar. It's like what the final landing place will be is like what is different. It's like the same structure where we sort of have this expansive sort of like fractal nature and where I sort of see what I anticipate being the best path forward is different niches of practice area that then can lean on each other. But I could also See, we have discussed this a little bit different types of approaches to industry. So like you said, the interdisciplinary thing, I think that's fair.
- [37:20]
Maggie Shirostani
I think they are two separate landing places. And I think it's sort of an open question. Which one we.
- [37:26]
Alex Shirostani
We're facing. We're facing a couple of different open questions. So I think one of the big, biggest ones is, like, what the next phase of growth looks like. So the first problem we solved was, like, when you get those influxes of growth and, like, it sort of grinds everything to a halt, you don't expect it to be a problem, but it is. And I think we've sort of solved that. And so now we're like, okay, well, we have this approach that works now. What direction do we, like, take that in? And so, yeah, I think. I think we're not quite. Quite settled on what it will be.
- [37:57]
Tyson Mutrix
Sounds like a good discussion for the two of you after this.
- [37:59]
Alex Shirostani
We're gonna go have lunch after and debrief.
- [38:02]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I think one of the cool things about this is it. It does get some of those conversations started that I think should be fun for you all. And although I wanted to make some of this entertaining, I think that's why I asked some of the questions I did. I also think, like, the idea of like, like benefiting you all are kind of having these conversations. I think it should be pretty helpful. I. I hope so, at least. But both of you said that Alex is the boss of the firm. The question I have for you, Maggie, is do you ever struggle with that?
- [38:28]
Maggie Shirostani
I guess the answer must be yes. I think for me, it feels. It feels like a decision to let Alex be the boss of the firm. Like, I think that is the best decision for us as a couple and for the firm as a whole. And so it means, though, that I do take a little bit less ownership of, like, some of the things like branding, for instance. Right. Like, if I were doing branding, it would look different than, like, what we have for the firm. And, you know, that plays into things. Like, I know, like, you probably brought up that you want me to do more business development. Right?
- [39:05]
Alex Shirostani
I did bring up.
- [39:06]
Maggie Shirostani
But. But. But it's like, it's kind of hard, right? When it's. It doesn't feel as authentic to me. Right. So it's harder to. It feels harder or less authentic or something for me to like. So that's something I think we have to of sort of figure out a little bit.
- [39:20]
Alex Shirostani
I mean, I think that's like, part of what's going on with the tech focus and the less personal touch is honestly, like, a lot of the business development, I think, comes about because of, like, personal brand. Right. Like, people in town know me, and, like, they know I'm, like, the tech guy. And so trying to, like, divorce the business from me as a person, I think lends itself to other people just stepping in and making it what they want. Like, going in and being like, I'm an attorney with this firm, and I'm bringing me to this conversation to develop you as a client, and I will be working with you in this way, and it not necessarily coming back and being suddenly like the Alex show, which I think is not scalable.
- [40:03]
Maggie Shirostani
Right.
- [40:04]
Tyson Mutrix
Do you think then, Alex, that maybe adopting some more of Maggie's ideas might help it more of a joint venture as opposed to just being the Alex show?
- [40:13]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah. So I will say, like, for as much as I am the boss, like, I really do respect Maggie's opinion and everything. I decide, like, almost without. Without exception, I run by her and I get her take and I. I get her feedback. There are some things, though, where, like, I will. I will seek feedback, and sometimes you'll even, like, say, like, you know, I think. I think you should decide because this would be totally different than what I would do. And, like, there. There's probably some room there for, like, figuring out how to, like, actually just bring you into it. Like, we've talked about, like, perhaps. I mean, this has been sort of, like, fleeting discussions, but me stepping away from the firm temporarily to let it breathe and, like, have Maggie fully at the helm to let it mature, and then, like, I can come back at a certain point and we can figure out what worked and what didn't and continue forward from there.
- [41:07]
Maggie Shirostani
But, yeah, I think. I think a lot of it is life circumstance, too. Like, I don't. I don't see what's happening as, like, Alex holding on to the firm and not letting it's. If anything, it's the opposite. Like, Alex is like, come, let's use your ideas. And I'm more like, well, no, let's let it be your thing, you know, so it's. It's an ongoing thing.
- [41:31]
Tyson Mutrix
I do wonder what the. What you will think the first would look like if Maggie ran the firm.
- [41:35]
Alex Shirostani
I think some of what I. Like, I don't know what it would be, but some of the BS would fall away. Like, I'm the kind of guy that will, like, spin a lot of plates and get things going, and then, like, certain things work and certain things don't. And, like, I eventually cut the things that don't, but I think Maggie would be quicker to identify some of those. I think she would also tighten up a lot of things. Like, I think she would probably spot some gaps that I am, like, not. Not as capable of identifying. Like, particularly in managing people. I think that would be a really good thing for the firm. Yeah, I'm sure there would be some things where I'd be like, hey, we should be taking a little bit more risk here. But, you know, I. I don't know that that's a bad thing. Like, I think, like, the business should be something that can stand on its own two feet. And if, like, me stepping away kills it, then I've been doing it wrong.
- [42:24]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. Maggie, would you agree with that?
- [42:26]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary. I mean, I think. I think there'd be less. I mean, just because of who we are. Like, there'd be less of a focus on the tech stuff, like the. The internal tech tools. I mean, like, how we run things. Obviously, I'd have to get up to speed on, but, yeah, I think. I think we definitely have a different approach.
- [42:45]
Tyson Mutrix
It's very clear that you have a very good working relationship, or at least it seems. And that's. I think it's awesome. Some things that came up was the risk. Sounds like Alex more of a risk taker. Maggie less of a risk taker, which is. I think that that's a sort of a normal thing. I know that. Alex, you. You were hoping. You want. You would like for Maggie to be a bigger risk taker. I think that was one of the things. Be a little less cautious. Maggie, you said that you. You kind of wanted Alex to kind of narrow his focus down a little bit. He's got so many great ideas to maybe focus on, you know, five of those ideas as opposed to, you know, all 20 of them at a time. I think that that's. That's pretty good.
- [43:25]
Maggie Shirostani
Yeah. I told them you dropped 15 of your 20 ideas. You can make more progress on five.
- [43:31]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, but I can't. It's. It's how I learn.
- [43:35]
Maggie Shirostani
I know, and I said that, too. I said it's what makes you. You. Yeah, I'm not sure it's even possible.
- [43:40]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, but it's sound advice, though. I think that that's. It's sound advice. This is something. So. And I think that Alex knows this because you hinted at this, and it's. It's. Maggie, your approach to. And I don't know if maybe if a new Idea comes up or something like that. But you're. Whenever you give feedback, it seems that your approach. You kind of want Alex to understand your position, like, and that you're not, you're not criticizing. You just need more information. So will you. I. This is. I kind of want to give you an opportunity, Maggie, to kind of talk to Alex and tell him like, kind of like when you're approaching something that it comes from. From a good place. And I think Alex knows. He kind of mentioned that. So you want to talk about that a little bit, how you're not doing it because you have a. You don't like the idea?
- [44:23]
Maggie Shirostani
I'm not tearing you apart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I mean, this is. We've talked about this before, but yeah, when, when Alex has an idea, I tend to want the, like, I want to be able to write a textbook on the idea. Right. And so I want, I want to know all of like everything about how it's going to work. And. And so my initial, my initial start is. Or like the way that I react is questions. Right. Like, that is like my first response is like questions that can sometimes come across to you as attacks and attempts to kind of like undermine.
- [44:57]
Alex Shirostani
Yeah, I think it's like also a day to day thing. Right. It's like if my cup runneth over, like, then I'm more likely to feel attacked. Oh, I feel like really, you know. Yeah, but.
- [45:09]
Maggie Shirostani
But yeah, I know he knows it in his head. Doesn't always.
- [45:14]
Alex Shirostani
She finished law school with a dual degree. And like the day after she was like, maybe I'll go get a PhD. And I was like, you just spent most your entire life in school.
- [45:23]
Maggie Shirostani
I would love to be a PhD.
- [45:24]
Alex Shirostani
And your first instinct is to go get a PhD. And like, you know, I just want.
- [45:28]
Maggie Shirostani
To think about things and tear them apart.
- [45:31]
Tyson Mutrix
I love it.
- [45:31]
Maggie Shirostani
I am. I am death.
- [45:35]
Tyson Mutrix
So the last question I have for you all this is, I'm gonna give both of you the opportunity on this, so either one of you can go first. But what's one thing that is amazing about the other one that you'll never be able to match? So this is. You get to talk up the other one. So whoever wants to go first.
- [45:53]
Maggie Shirostani
But this is, this is a good structure to recover. Yeah, it's a good idea to end with this question in case you've really created a lot of friction.
- [46:04]
Tyson Mutrix
Exactly. That's exactly right. So if we had more time, I'd ask you a lot more about this stuff because I, I did want to kind of give you a chance to kind of like really kind of talk each other up too. I think that this is, this is, should be a building moment, not something that does, you know, tear. Tear each other down. But so, so what is one of you, whoever wants to go first? What's one thing that's amazing about the other, that, that you, you don't think you'll ever build a match?
- [46:25]
Maggie Shirostani
I, I can go first. Okay. I think Alex's appreciation for possibility is something I will never match. Like, even in just the day to day stuff, I'll feel like, you know, there are only two options for, to solve a problem and Alex. I'll talk about it with Alex and he'll be like, wait, but what about this or that? And I'm like, oh, I never thought about, never thought about that. Like, he, he makes me feel like there's, there's a lot of, like there are a lot of choices in a good way. And I'm not so constrained, I think.
- [46:58]
Alex Shirostani
Cool. Yeah. For me, one of the things that I've always appreciated about Maggie is how like just, just brilliant she is. She's like so smart. She is so good at like capturing complex ideas and like boiling them down and, and then she's like an excellent communicator as well. You know, even, even when we're like having difficult discussions like about what's going on internally. Like, like I feel like you do a good job of being fairly, like very clear and like, it's like you reach across the aisle somehow with how you communicate to like invite people in. And that's like both professionally and personally and like, especially like when we're hanging out with our friend groups, like I often get a chance to appreciate how she's able to like navigate conversations so well and like, you know, sort of bring. She, like, she connects people and I, I love that about her.
- [47:53]
Tyson Mutrix
That's awesome. Really good. Well, thank you both for doing this and being open and sharing and taking this risk with me. So really appreciate it.
- [48:00]
Alex Shirostani
I liked it.
- [48:01]
Maggie Shirostani
We can't afford therapy, so this is.
- [48:09]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I may have really messed you all up because I'm not. I have no training. So you're, you're in trouble. You're in trouble. Well, thank you both for doing this. Really appreciate it.
- [48:16]
Maggie Shirostani
All right, thanks. Thanks.
- [48:17]
Alex Shirostani
Tyson.
- [48:30]
Tyson Mutrix
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- [49:07]
Maggie Shirostani
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