Couples Series: Vision, Support, and Shared Ownership with Nicole and Caleb Payne

Summary

Maximum Lawyer Podcast: Couples Series – Vision, Support, and Shared Ownership with Nicole and Caleb Payne

Release Date: July 4, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In the final installment of the Couples Series on the Maximum Lawyer podcast, host Tyson Mutrux engages in an insightful conversation with Nicole and Caleb Payne, a dynamic husband-and-wife duo who co-own and operate a thriving law firm. This episode delves deep into their collaborative journey, exploring how they balance their professional responsibilities with their personal relationship. Through candid discussions, Nicole and Caleb reveal the intricacies of running a law firm together, highlighting their leadership styles, shared visions, and the challenges they've navigated as both partners in business and marriage.

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Defining Success

The conversation begins with Nicole and Caleb sharing their personal definitions of success, providing a glimpse into their motivations and priorities.

• Nicole on Success: “[02:55] Nicole: Having time to spend the way you want it to want to spend it.” She emphasizes the importance of work-life balance, aiming to dedicate quality time to family and personal pursuits such as traveling.

• Caleb on Success: “[04:10] Caleb: Good balance, work-life balance. Creating something meaningful, you know, finding satisfaction in what you do in your work product. Creating value and putting it out into the world.” Caleb highlights the significance of meaningful work that positively impacts not just their clients but also the broader community.

These perspectives underscore a mutual understanding that success extends beyond financial achievements to encompass personal fulfillment and societal contribution.

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Vision for the Firm in 15 Years

Exploring their long-term aspirations, Nicole and Caleb outline ambitious plans for expanding their law firm.

• Nicole’s Vision: “[04:57] Nicole: We have a department for everything... I would like to have more than one practice area that's built up... and I'd like to be in multiple states and have similar office structures in those states as well.” Her strategic outlook focuses on diversifying practice areas and establishing a multi-state presence, aiming for comprehensive departmental structures within each new location.

• Caleb’s Vision: “[06:04] Caleb: Offices in multiple states... having maybe 10 partners or so that we can promote internally... more reach, more bandwidth, more clients.” Caleb envisions scaling the firm by increasing partnership opportunities and expanding their client base across various states, including Colorado, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, and Texas.

Their combined vision reflects a balanced approach to growth, integrating both organizational expansion and enhanced client services.

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Leadership and Decision-Making

A significant portion of the discussion centers on their distinct leadership styles and how decisions are made within the firm.

• Nicole as the Primary Decision-Maker: “[07:03] Nicole: I would say I'm more of the boss... people come to me for decision making a little bit more than they go to Caleb.”

• Caleb’s Role and Decision Authority: “[06:51] Nicole: Because I'm really passionate about it and I think people can see that.” Caleb adds a narrative about leadership dynamics, emphasizing that while Nicole handles more day-to-day decisions, both partners hold significant authority in their respective domains.

• Caleb’s Leadership Inspiration: “[15:18] Caleb: Well, her dad was an entrepreneur... she has a much more of a business-oriented perspective than I do.” Nicole’s entrepreneurial heritage informs her proactive and structured leadership approach, complementing Caleb’s big-picture and calm demeanor.

Their collaborative leadership ensures that decisions are well-rounded, leveraging both Nicole’s business acumen and Caleb’s strategic foresight.

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Starting the Business Together

The couple recounts their journey from law school friends to business partners, highlighting pivotal moments that cemented their professional collaboration.

• Nicole’s Initiative: “[09:31] Nicole: Caleb and I met in law school... I convinced him to leave his firm and join my firm and work together.”

• Caleb’s Commitment: “[11:04] Caleb: I think it was all Nicole, to be honest... when I was ready, we made it happen.” Caleb attributes the genesis of their partnership to Nicole’s persistent encouragement and his eventual readiness to embark on the venture together.

Their unified decision to combine personal and professional lives underscores a strong foundation built on mutual trust and shared vision.

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Work-Life Balance and Communication

Balancing a demanding professional life with personal relationships necessitates effective communication and clear boundaries.

• Setting Boundaries: “[20:27] Caleb: We don't have a set rule... we usually know when it's the right time to talk about work.”

• Differing Approaches: “[21:11] Caleb: We butt heads about work, about talking work after hours at home... she wants to talk about something and I'm like, I'm done.” Nicole and Caleb navigate the delicate balance of discussing work without letting it overshadow their personal time, though occasional disagreements arise regarding the extent and timing of such conversations.

Nicole’s emphasis on encouraging Caleb through words of affirmation contrasts with Caleb’s more reserved approach, highlighting the importance of understanding each other’s communication styles.

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Handling Conflict and Disagreements

Every partnership encounters conflicts, and Nicole and Caleb share their strategies for managing and resolving disagreements effectively.

• Open Dialogue: “[37:36] Caleb: Hopefully it's something that we can talk out... somebody's got to apologize typically.” They prioritize open communication, ensuring that conflicts are addressed through honest conversations and mutual apologies.

• Creative Apologies: “[38:04] Nicole: No problems... Caleb likes to say that I apologize in creative ways.” Their unique methods of reconciliation demonstrate a blend of humor and sincerity, fostering a resilient partnership.

• Recent Challenge: “[39:09] Nicole: ...we should have gone my way. We're in the office now, and it's beautiful and fine...” Reflecting on a recent decision to let go of a long-standing employee, Nicole and Caleb discuss the complexities of balancing firm morale with operational efficiency, ultimately agreeing that the tough decision benefitted the firm’s long-term health.

Their approach to conflict resolution emphasizes the importance of prioritizing the firm’s and their relationship’s well-being over individual preferences.

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Lessons Learned About Marriage and Business

Running a business together has imparted valuable lessons about maintaining a healthy marriage alongside a successful professional partnership.

• Nicole on Humility and Respect: “[28:02] Nicole: It's taught me a lot of humility... you have to have respect for one another in the marriage as well as in partnerships at work.”

• Caleb on Adaptability and Growth: “[28:43] Caleb: We're blessed... things evolve and you have to be ready to adapt and ready to change and grow and learn and adjust.” Both partners acknowledge that adaptability, mutual respect, and continuous personal growth are crucial for sustaining both their marriage and business.

Their experiences underscore that integrating personal and professional lives requires patience, understanding, and a commitment to evolving together.

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Future Plans and Growth Strategies

Looking ahead, Nicole and Caleb discuss strategies to further scale their firm and enhance their service offerings.

• Partnership Program: “[03:11] Nicole: I would roll out a partnership program immediately... attorneys can buy in and we could grow the company together.”

• Expanding Practice Areas: “[26:23] Nicole: His legal abilities... shifting towards more complex cases.” Nicole aims to develop diverse practice areas, while Caleb focuses on expanding the firm’s reach and increasing client bandwidth.

• Mission-Driven Goals: “[36:29] Caleb: We're recovering insurance funds... fighting the good fight.” Their mission-driven approach emphasizes justice and support for homeowners, aligning their business growth with a broader societal impact.

Their forward-thinking plans highlight a balanced focus on both organizational expansion and meaningful community contributions.

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Conclusion

Nicole and Caleb Payne’s candid discussion on the Maximum Lawyer podcast offers a comprehensive look into the dynamics of running a law firm as a married couple. Their journey reflects a harmonious blend of complementary strengths, effective communication, and shared visions that drive both their personal and professional success. Through mutual respect, strategic planning, and a commitment to resolving conflicts amicably, Nicole and Caleb exemplify a powerful partnership that not only sustains their marriage but also propels their firm towards continued growth and excellence.

End of Summary

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Caleb]

This is maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Today we're wrapping up our special three part series where I talk to couples who not only live together but run law firms together. We wanted to know what that actually looks like behind the scenes, where they're aligned, where they butt heads and how they handle the business and the marriage at the same time. For each episode, I interview both partners separately, then bring them together at the end to see what happens when they hear each other's answers. It's raw, it's honest. And some of the answers are going to surprise you and they surprise each other. But it's all about getting them together on the same page to grow their business as a united front. Today you're going to hear from Nicole and Caleb. Nicole is a powerhouse trial attorney and she's also the one shaping the brand, leading the team and driving growth at the firm. We talk about leadership, control and what it's like being the face of a business you're building with your spouse. Then I sat down with Caleb. He brings a calm, thoughtful perspective to both life and business. We talk about ownership, communication, and how he approaches building a business that supports both the work and the life he and Nicole are creating together. This is a really fun one. So let's jump in to the final episode of the Series. No marriages were harmed in the making of this podcast episode. All right, Nicole, thank you for doing this. First question is, what does success look like to you?

[Nicole]

Having time to spend the way you want it to want to spend it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Can you elaborate a little bit on in what ways do you want to.

[Nicole]

Spend your time with family, traveling.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, next question. What's one big change you'd make to the firm right now if it were only up to you?

[Nicole]

I would roll out a partnership program immediately.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, interesting. What would that be? I'm curious what the. What the partnership program is.

[Nicole]

So we have had amazing attorneys here who have really given it their all for many years now. And it excites me to think that they could buy in and we could grow the company together. I think we've gotten to a point where we're a little bit bigger than two people can handle, and we just want to. I want to be able to roll out this partnership so structure where attorneys can buy in. If they've been with us for a certain amount of years and, you know, they would. They would. They would own less of a percentage than Caleb and I would. But I just think it'd be nice to have a larger think tank and, you know, brain power behind some of these next moves that we have for growing the firm in the future.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's very interesting. At some point, I'd love to hear more about that. That sounds like a really cool idea. What does success look like to. To you?

[Caleb]

Good balance, Work, life balance. Creating something meaningful, you know, finding satisfaction in. In what you do in your work product. Creating value and putting it out into the world.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, creating something meaningful. What do you mean?

[Caleb]

Doing something or producing something that has a. A net positive impact on not just yourself or not just your company, but community or, you know, the world at large, Perhaps in sort of a macro.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Definition that makes sense. I'm going to give you a magic wand. I'm telling you the exact same thing I'm telling everybody else. So I'm going give you a magic wand and you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. And so describe what the firm looks like.

[Nicole]

We have a department for everything. Each department has more than one head. So where you have a head, but I have, like a team. So it's not just one person that knows how to do the management from the top, and then, of course, a team underneath them. I would like to have more than one practice area that's built up. Right now we have one that's extremely built up and a few Other areas that we're trying to build up, but I'd like for those areas to be the same level that we currently, currently operate in this practice area that is our, the bulk of our practice. And I'd like to be in multiple states and have similar office structures in those states as well.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What states do you want to be in?

[Nicole]

Colorado, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas, and maybe California. A little ambitious, but maybe California too.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I like it. So this is another magic wand question. Right. So you get to decide what the firm looks like in 15 years. Okay. Describe what it looks like.

[Caleb]

Offices in multiple states. You know, we would have maybe 10 partners or so that we can promote internally. I, you know, larger scale helping. I think the number that last year and the year before, we think we resolved about 1000 cases, give or take. I think it was around 1200 the year before for. So yeah, just more reach, more bandwidth, more clients.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What states do you want to be in?

[Caleb]

Colorado, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Texas.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Who would you say is the boss of the firm? And what I really, I'm not talking about titles. I'm really talking about when it comes to really who makes the decision, when it comes down to it, who's the boss?

[Nicole]

I would say I'm more of the boss. Of course, you know, Caleb is as well, but I'm more in the day to day. I think people come to me for decision making a little bit more than they, they go to Caleb.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What do you think that is?

[Nicole]

Because I'm really passionate about it and I think people can see that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, all right, I want to know who the, who's the boss of the firm? And I'm not talking about the titles or anything else. I'm talking about when it comes down to making a decision and whoever has the final word on it, who's the boss.

[Caleb]

Once I was in Marco island and I was working on a Hurricane Irma case, this is in 2017. And I was sitting at a seafood restaurant and this older gentleman at 50s age pulls up in a boat with his family. His wife and his kids were grown and his grandkids were there and there was hardly anybody else there. So he sat next to me and we started talking. And at the time I was working for another firm, medium to large sized firm, doing the exact same thing that I do now. And I had been thinking of going on my own. And Nicole had been on her own since law school and she had been persuading me to leave and go on my own as well. But I had Some large cases, multimillion dollar cases, which I had a pretty significant financial interest in. And I wasn't ready to leave until those were done. And at the time, I remember I was talking to this guy and he was telling me about how he had started a business with his wife. And they, at the time when they started, they had normal corporate square jobs, they had small kids, they were in debt, they went into a whole bunch more debt to start this business. And everybody was telling them that they're crazy, and it worked out very well for them. And he was. Had this amazing life, and he was on this awesome center console yellow fin and just, you know, chilling in Marco island. And, you know, I was kind of just getting some advice from him and he was saying, you know, this is the. This is what we went through. And everybody thought that we were crazy and told us that we were crazy, that when we did it, because of the timing and everything else, but, you know, if you can make it work, it really is the best thing ever. Because if you've already got a life partner, if you can, you know, be in business with them too, why not? So with that said, there's certain things in our business that will fall on me, and it's. It's my decision and only my decision. And there's certain things that fall on Nicole, and it's. It's her decision, it's only her decision, and I stay out of that stuff and she stays out of the other stuff. So I think it's pretty difficult to say if there was one person who was the boss. But, you know, we always kind of joke around that Nicole's the boss. So I think there's. There's some truth in jest there. Okay, but she might say opposite. I don't know.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

[Nicole]

So Caleb and I met in law school. We were friends for a very long time before we started dating, and then eventually got married. And. And it wasn't until we had our first kid that I convinced him to leave his firm and join my firm and work together. Because I had been out on my own since law school, and I just saw a tremendous opportunity if we were to collaborate. So it was around 2019 when we started working together, and that was a time where he was home a lot because our son was born. And we were kind of just, you know, two attorneys living under the same roof, just talking about cases and bouncing ideas off of each other. And that's when I just convinced him, you know, it was time, you know, he was trying to hang on to, oh, no, I gotta settle a few cases first. And, you know. But then I finally got through to him and we started working together, and that's how it came up, really.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Was there any specific thing that happened that convinced him to finally make the switch we had?

[Nicole]

Well, I think it helped that he had a referral source that was using him exclusively, and he knew that it would be enough to support him if he were to go out on his own. And I was really eager to help him with the practice. So I think he knew that if he were to leave, he would have business and then he would have someone to help him work it and tackle it with.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How did the idea of the two of you working together first come up?

[Caleb]

I think it was all Nicole, to be honest. I think it was her idea. And she brought it up, and she continued to bring it up, and, you know, eventually, when I was ready, we made it happen and we went about it slowly at first, and then our. Our first child was just a few months old when I went on my own. And after he turned two, she came to work full time, and that's kind of when things really started to take off for us.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That seems like a very stressful time. Then you're leaving another place, you're. You're coming to work with a spouse, and you've got a newborn. That was it. As stressful as it sounds, we also.

[Caleb]

Bought a house, and we had got married just slightly. We got married in November 2017, bought a house in May of 2018. Her son was born in November 2018, left the firm, started the new firm in March or April of 2019. So there was a lot of things happening in a short period of time. And, you know, looking back on it now, I don't feel like it was any more or less stressful than I'm sitting here today, to be honest.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, that's good. That's. That's a good thing. That's especially. Doesn't seem like it was like a traumatic event for you, so it's. That's. That's good.

[Caleb]

Yeah. Yeah. One of my gifts, I guess you could call it, is this stuff doesn't really bother me as much as it bothers other people. I do get stressed out sometimes, like for trials and things like that, but I. I kind of have a unique ability to compartmentalize and not worry about these things.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's one thing you wish Caleb would stop doing in the business?

[Nicole]

Yawning during meetings.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Tell me more about this. Is this a. Is this a problem?

[Nicole]

It's.

[Caleb]

It's.

[Nicole]

I wouldn't say it's a problem because I've actually never brought it up to him. I've kicked him under the table a few times, but, yeah, he's not a. A big fan of meetings. He does it because it's. It's necessary, but we can see it all over his face when he's either not into it or thinking about other things that he needs to be doing or, you know, just didn't get enough sleep the night before or something like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Very interesting. What the. Maybe dive a little more into that in the joint session. What's one thing you wish Nicole would stop doing in the business?

[Caleb]

Making me work so much. Stop doing so much. That's tough.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And remember, she will hear this.

[Caleb]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I can make a lot of jokes right now. I mean, there's. There was a time where I thought we were. Not that we. We never really have spent a lot of money on advertising compared to some of the other firms that our size. I think we spend a very small amount of advertising compared to what our revenue is compared to a lot of firms that are our size. There have been times in the past. I don't think I feel like that right at this moment, but there have been times of the past where I thought that we were taking on too much or maybe that we were expanding too fast, hiring too many people, taking too many new meetings with new potential clients or referral sources. And, you know, I. Maybe I might have disagreed with that with her at those times. I think right now, I wouldn't really feel that way. If she wants to do it, she wants to continue to expand. I'm okay with that. Yeah. And it's hard for me to think of a specific thing that I can't. That I. That I would wish she would stop doing, to be honest. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Describe Caleb's work style in one word.

[Nicole]

Unrattled.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, that's a good one. It's the first time I've heard that one, so that's good. Tell me what you mean.

[Nicole]

He's calm, cool, collected, always. Which is a great balance for a lot of the attorneys here. He doesn't get super stressed out. I mean, he. He could be preparing for a trial for the first time ever to try a case, and he's not stressed about it one bit. You know, he could be dealing with difficult clients, difficult opposing counsels, difficult scenarios that you deal with as an owner of a firm. And he is almost never bothered by it and yeah, he's just not stressed at all.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so describe Nicole's work style in one word.

[Caleb]

Entrepreneurial.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Explain what you mean.

[Caleb]

Well, her dad was an entrepreneur. He was a developer here in town and ran many successful businesses. He's, he's mostly retired now and her mom owns and operates two hair salons in town. So as well as several members of her family have, you know, she comes from a family of people who have. Are entrepreneurs and start businesses and run and grow businesses and that sort of thing. So she looks at the business from, from that point of view. She has a much more of a business oriented perspective than I do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What would you, then how would you describe your perspective?

[Caleb]

I'm a big picture guy. I kind of just see where things are going. I see trends and patterns and try to, you know, align our, our goals and our vision with the way that I think the wind is blowing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's one way you and Caleb butt heads at work?

[Nicole]

We've actually been pretty good. Maybe when I try to bounce an idea off of him and have him try to help me with the decision making and he is kind of nonchalant about it. Doesn't really seem to care whether the, you know, I say yes or no or make one decision over another. He's kind of a little bit more hands off. So maybe we butt heads where I'm like, want him to be a little bit more hands on.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. What's one way that you and Nicole butt heads at work?

[Caleb]

One thing in the business.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yep. I mean, it could be as simple as someone doesn't empty the dish dishwasher in the, in the kitchen, at the office or something, but.

[Caleb]

Well, there is no dishwasher. Yeah, let me see if I can answer this without embarrassing myself. I guess maybe the. Who's the handling of the extremely difficult things that come up. Maybe hiring people or hiring people. All of the litigation stuff usually falls on me. So I, I don't expect her to do any of that. Yeah, I would say just administer like the difficult administrative type type things that can't be delegated.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on and how did it play out? And I know you said the two of you for the most part has been pretty smooth, but I'm sure there's been something that's come up as you, since you've started the firm that maybe has led to some disagreement where you had to, one of you had to kind of put your foot down.

[Nicole]

I have fought for an employee for many years. And Caleb maybe didn't see the value that I saw in this employee. So it was a lot of me trying to just convince him like, that we should keep this person, pay this person more. And, you know, he ended up being right. But it's definitely something that we've butted heads on. And, you know, this person was an integral part of our business and had a very executive type role. So. So it was, you know, something that came up often.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. Where do you think. Why do you think you fought so hard and. And because you said he was right. So I wonder, like, if you had blinders on or what do you think? What made you wrong about it? Why. Why were you wrong and why was he right?

[Nicole]

He's more big picture. And I. I do think I had blinders on because I was really using this person as like my go to right hand, assigning a lot of things, delegating things to this person. So it was a. I was just closer to the situation than he was. So I think I just maybe was a little bit more. I would. I don't want to say manipulated, but didn't see, like, the big picture like he did.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's fair. Of the things that you have butted heads on, what would you say is the biggest business decision that the two of you have disagreed on and how did it end up playing out?

[Caleb]

Yeah, of course I was right about all of them.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Of course. You know, there was one. I'm not to give you too much. She. There was something you all disagreed on and she said you were right. So you have it. You have a recording of her saying that you were right. Just so you know.

[Caleb]

So this one is kind of. It's just fresh. So I'll go ahead with it may not have been the biggest, but we just recently moved office and I have worked in law firms since I was 20 years old and I've assisted in law firms moving before. So I said, we are going to outsource this move no matter the cost. I will not be involved. I'm not going to be involved no matter what. Whether we try to do this internally or we outsource it. I'm not moving a thing because I made my stance known. I don't care the cost, pay it, let them do it professionally. We tried to cut corners and save money because of operations manager that Nicole sided with. To make a long story short, we should have gone my way. We're in the office now, and it's beautiful and fine, but the amount of money that was saved, I Think in the long term was negligible compared to some of the difficulties that we experienced during the move. So that'd be one. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non office hours?

[Nicole]

We don't have a set rule. We try not to, but every now and then we get a moment when we are alone at home or like in the car driving somewhere and we usually know when it's the right time to talk about work. And you know, we could just talk about it for hours or we just don't talk about it at all.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Does one of you tend to talk about work at times where it's maybe not as appropriate or whenever the other one's not really expecting it?

[Nicole]

I don't think so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, very good. Nice. That's. That's excellent. Really good. What are the rules about talking about work at home or during non, non work hours?

[Caleb]

Now that is. Okay, so there's one that we butt heads about because she wants to do that all the time and I'm like a hard stop. Like I won't think, I won't even entertain the most elemental questions if, if I'm, you know, punched out. Not that we're ever really truly punched out. As a business owner, I'm, I'm looking at emails, you know, late at night, early in the morning and stuff too. Yeah, I, I'll, I'm definitely guilty of, of, you know, I don't want to say blowing her off, but she wants to talk about something and I'm just like, look, I'm, I'm done. I'm. You gotta, you gotta table this for now. So, yeah, that's. I, yeah, we're butting heads about work, about talking work after hours are at home. That's probably the most common thing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do, do you actually have set rules where like no talking about work at home or in the bedroom, anything like that? Do you have, Are there any set rules that you have?

[Caleb]

No, no, nothing set in stone. But you know, usually from, you know, the time that, when I also, I try to never let my kids see me on the phone. So if I'm at home and the kids are home, like I'm not working.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I like that. That's a, that's a good rule. I'm not good at, I'm not very good at that. But that's, I think that's a good one.

[Caleb]

Nobody is. And I'm not perfect at it. It's, it's just Something I kind of strive to do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Tell me about a time. You don't have to give me too many specifics, but tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office or vice versa.

[Nicole]

Okay. So one morning I was getting ready for work, and he can be very much of a jokester at home, so he was just probably trying to annoy me, and I was probably trying to get ready for an important day at the office where we had, like, a big meeting and I had to be on my A game. So I just wanted to focus. You know, I was being really serious, and he was just kind of pestering me at home, pushing my buttons. I probably, you know, said something not too nice to him, and then that caused a fight where he, you know, he was like, hey, you know, you're crossing the line. And, you know, then I got to work and, you know, don't like leaving the house like that. Got to work and was more thrown off by, you know, the way that we left things, as opposed to, you know, if I would have just joked around with him or something. So, yeah, that. That's like a typical morning in our house where he's just joking around and I'm. I'm trying to be all serious.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You're trying to get your game face on, and he's. Yeah, he's just joking around, messing around. So I get it. Tell me about a time you had a fight at home that affected your day at the office, or vice versa.

[Caleb]

We just recently lost someone. Had to let someone go. However you want to say it. She had worked with us. This person had worked with us since the beginning, and it was a very difficult separation. It needed to be done, but it, you know, had a pretty heavy emotional toll, especially on the call. They were closer than I was. And so something like that, when that happens at work, you don't escape it at home, and ultimately, it's for the better at work. I think the environment is much better at work, and we know that we made the right decision, and she's happy with it, but it was pretty emotional last couple of weeks or so. We wish her the best, and it was a difficult decision, and she really helped us a lot, helped the firm a lot. And it was bittersweet. But, yeah, I mean, it does happen. I can't say we're. Nicole and I are pretty good about, you know, when we do have disagreements or arguments or if you want to call them fights, we can usually let them go pretty quickly. I don't think we've ever really had anything that, you know, we didn't. Weren't able to resolve before we went to sleep that night.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's good. Very good. What would you, I guess, how would you describe Caleb's leadership style and what would you tweak about it?

[Nicole]

He's very like, he builds kind of like a family environment around him. He's very, very generous. He's a very generous boss. And as far as leader, I would say maybe if he could be a little bit more proactive and structured in his leadership, I think it would be, it would go a long way. He kind of, just as it comes to him, has like, natural leadership skills and he has great quotes and he's, he can be motivational. But if, you know, if I could tweak it, it would be, let's channel that into a way we can make it more structured and part of your daily routine so that we can get you out in front of as many people in the firm as possible so, you know, you can rub off on them.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Got it. Probably. Probably. Good advice. What, how would you describe her leadership style and what would you tweak about it? Hmm.

[Caleb]

This would be a good question to ask the staff. She's a very good negotiator. Just kind of has a commanding presence and, you know, high self monitor. A lot of good qualities of a leader. One thing I could tweak about her, I think she works too much. She needs to go to the spa more.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Caleb]

Get some hobbies.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. Where do you think that Caleb thrives in the business?

[Nicole]

His legal abilities? I think when, where he's in unique legal situations, you know, more complex cases, when he's challenged, when he's, you know, like hearings, you know, anything in court, I think that's where he thrives.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you think that he spends most of his time doing that or do you think too much of his time is spent on doing other things?

[Nicole]

Other things. I wouldn't say he spends much time on it. I mean, we're, we're trying to work on the business, not in the business. So, you know, he doesn't take that many cases anymore. So, you know, it's, it's difficult because he, he needs to do like, higher level things. So it's hard for him to have a full caseload and, you know, be going to court all the time and, you know, settling cases. It's not something he can really do that much of anymore. So. Yeah, no, but he really doesn't spend much time on it. I would say 10 hours a week. Maybe.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Where do you think that she. She thrives in the business.

[Caleb]

Client relations. Clients love her, people, you know, she's good at selling.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And do you think that that's where she spends most of her time?

[Caleb]

That's what we are trying to get her to spend most of her time on, on the business as opposed to in the business. But there's, there's still a lot of day to day admin stuff that she's involved in because there's, there's this. It's a big operation. You know.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's something running a law firm with Caleb has taught you about your marriage? I think it's funny, your, your pause and your smile. It was like, I probably shouldn't say that. So I'm very curious about what you're about to say, but I don't believe it was. You're. You're about to say whatever the second thing was, because the first thing I feel like you're not going to say what it is. But anyways, go ahead.

[Nicole]

I think it's taught me a lot of humility and I think that that alone, like, goes a long way in a marriage. You know, if you, you know, married couples are always building resentment towards one another where it's like, no, I feel like I do the dishes all the time and I'm always cooking dinner and I'm taking after the kids or it's a. I have to do all the work and bring all the money home or, you know, it's taught me that you can, you have to have respect for one another in the marriage as well as in partnerships and at work. So I think I've learned a lot working with him just as far as like patience and respect goes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What, what's something that running a law firm with Nicole has taught you about your marriage?

[Caleb]

I'm just blessed. We're blessed. It's. It's. Honestly, I don't know if ever in my wildest dreams I would have imagined that it would have worked out this good. You know, we were. It's a different kind of. Different kind of happy, I guess. You know, I was very happy when our son was born and I left the firm and I had 30 cases and no employees and our profit margin was like 75, 80%. That was awesome. I didn't really have to do anything, but I, you know, now we're servicing way more clients now. You know, we're provided a better life for ourselves and our family. We've got an awesome team here who loves to work here and we take care of Them. And we've created kind of this. This whole little culture that kind of, you know, supersedes our own individual selves. And that's kind of a special thing as far. I don't know if that answers your question. I guess things evolve and you have to be ready to adapt and ready to change and grow and learn and adjust. And I think you could look at marriage and business sort of of the same in a lot of those regards.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What's one thing you wish Caleb really understood about you and. And how you operate?

[Nicole]

He knows this about me already, but, like, words of encouragement, words of affirmation, like, I love hearing that from him. So this is just a reminder to Caleb that I do love to hear that from him. Especially, you know, that's where the words matter the most, is from the people that I love. So, you know, just if he could remember that from time to time, because he's not really like that, you know, he's not a. He doesn't need to hear that from me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So what's one thing you wish Nicole really understood about how you operate?

[Caleb]

You know, I think Nicole understands me perfectly. We've been married since 2017, and we were friends for like, six years before that. So we've known each other now for a good bit. And, you know, we were. We were very close friends before we got married. And so I think that there's not a whole lot of misunderstandings when it comes to her and, you know, my professional career.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, thank you all for doing this. And I kind of mentioned this to Nicole before we started the. The whole idea. I know some of these questions seem kind of tricky and all that, but the really. The whole idea is to really kind of build you all up together. And even though some of these questions might have been tricky, I think you both answered them well. And I think that when you re. Listen to this, I think you'll get both get more of an appreciation for each other. The interesting things there was when you talked about success, it was interesting. The states, you. You all both said very similar things about, you know, success, but also like the growth of the firm and where you went ahead. The states were different, though, if I remember correctly, I didn't list all of them. So, Nicole, what states did you want to be in in 15 years?

[Nicole]

So I said New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Texas, and possibly California.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. They were similar. I don't know if you had the northern states. Caleb, did you.

[Caleb]

I didn't say any of those. She didn't Say Colorado. We're already in Colorado.

[Nicole]

We're already in Colorado, but we're not.

[Caleb]

Making any money there. So I'd like to make money, though.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Gotcha. So I did find that part interesting because I. You had the northern states included in there, but yeah, Colorado was missing as well. I thought that was kind of. Kind of fun. It's interesting because there's a common trend, and I kind of picked up on this from talking to both of you. Nicole, you're very serious, very business oriented, and I feel like, Caleb, you like to joke a lot, and you're more like the fun guy. Is that kind of how things are?

[Nicole]

Definitely, definitely, definitely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you feel like that has caused some strife in the firm?

[Caleb]

In the firm or at home?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, I guess both.

[Caleb]

Not so much at the firm. Although I think probably there are some times where she's like, oh, you. You just joke around and everybody loves you and you make me do all the serious stuff. And that's why I was saying, like, probably the difficult things come to are the most difficult things and butting heads are the distribution of the administrative type tasks that nobody wants to do and that we can't delegate. Because, yeah, I'm a lot less. I don't want to. I don't want to say less serious, but, yeah, I'm kind of more of a playful personality when it comes to this.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Nicole. Anything, Dad.

[Nicole]

I agree with him. Not really anything there.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so who's the boss? This answer was funny to me. Who's the boss?

[Nicole]

Answer.

[Caleb]

You know, there's. It's. We're both 50%, so there's. It's really. There's. We're both kind of equal in terms of voting shares. You ask anybody. I think anybody would probably say, she's the boss.

[Nicole]

I'm the boss.

[Caleb]

Yeah. Go do the next trial, then I'll go. I'll go on a golf trip.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So, Caleb, here's a question I have for you. Is it hard for you to admit that? Is it. Because it seems like it's hard for you to admit that Nicole is the boss?

[Caleb]

Well, she's not really, though.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So. And I. Listen, I'm not gonna pray anymore. I think it's fun. Who would the employee say is the boss?

[Caleb]

That's a good question. We should do an anonymous poll.

[Nicole]

No, you totally should say, I'm the boss. They tell me all that all the time.

[Caleb]

A lot of. Yeah, but they all call me boss, too.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm going to move on because I don't want to cause any strife. But the I think you should do an anonymous fun poll and, and just see what you're. See what your people say. So the, the big change in the firm. This was interesting. I think you're both very mission oriented, but I think that, that Nicole, you are very business mission oriented and Caleb, you are more, you know, mission oriented when it comes to. You want to change the world almost, it seems like. Is that, does that sound accurate?

[Nicole]

Yes.

[Caleb]

Yeah, I wouldn't say. Well, but I know what you're like more making a difference.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Issue driven.

[Caleb]

Issue driven, sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. How do the two of those fit together when it comes to the firm?

[Caleb]

Well, the business driven is, is primary. Obviously. None of this could exist if it wasn't for the business angle to it. And the, the mission, I, you know, the issue driven aspect of it I think is secondary just from a like, strategical standpoint. Not to say that the money is more important than, you know, putting roofs on people's houses or something like that. But in terms of that, that's not necessarily the mission that I'm referring to. I'm referring to something a little bit more deeper than that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Well, don't you think. I mean, I think that they could work together and they could. If you think about what's the name of the. Is it Tom's. The shoes? Where you buy a shoe, you give a shoe. I do think. I mean, don't you think there's a world where you could do something like that, where the business side builds the issue side?

[Caleb]

I think that's what we're doing. I think that's what we're doing. Right. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you both feel like you're on the same page when it comes to that?

[Caleb]

Yeah.

[Nicole]

Yes.

[Caleb]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I love that.

[Caleb]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is it, is it something that's like, codified where, like, we're, we're kind of like the shoe thing, right? Where you, you buy a shoe, you have a shoe. Is there. Do you have something like that set up where so much revenue goes to some sort of cause or something like that?

[Caleb]

You know, we don't have a set budget on that sort of thing. And we do. Oftentimes we'll have a, like, either we'll all go volunteer as a firm or we'll give money to various causes or charities and things like that. But I think more importantly for this conversation are the model of our business where we're recovering insurance funds from carriers and giving it to homeowners owners so that they can put their home back in the shape that it was in before the loss. There's there's a Robin Hood aspect to it. And so, you know, I, I think that we are fighting the good fight. Much more so than say, the people on the other side of our cases who represented, you know, multi billion dollar insurance companies or you know, other areas of law where it's, you know, transactional or you know, things like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And Nicole, you'd brought up the partner program and is that something that you all have discussed previously or is this something that, if you were to mention it now, it's something that Caleb would have been hearing for the first time?

[Nicole]

No, we've discussed it. We've touched on it briefly in the past, but more recently it's becoming more of a main topic of discussion and it's something that I'm trying to drive and push forward. So. No, we've talked about it plenty.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is there any pushback from, from you, Caleb, when it comes to that?

[Caleb]

No, I want to do it. I want to do it. It's. This has become such a large operation that for it to just fall on the two of us, it's, it's too difficult and time consuming and our kids are growing up fast and the sooner we can do this, the better.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Love it. So I'm curious when it comes to like conflict resolution with the two of you, like if, if an issue comes up is. So sometimes you'll have like a couple that they, you know, they get in a disagreement and then they just kind of move on from it. Sometimes they have to get. Some people have to kind of go through a process. How do you all usually deal with conflict and disagreement about things?

[Caleb]

Hopefully it's something that we can talk out because, you know, that's really the only way that these things get resolved. You know, if a third party mediator needs to be brought in, a referee or something like that every once in a while. If it's pretty extreme, we've, we've gone that route. But yeah, I don't, there's really, I don't, I can't think of any secret other than just kind of talking it out and you know, somebody's got to apologize typically, even if you're, you know, not in the wrong.

[Nicole]

Right. We, we typically talk it out, no problems. But Caleb likes to say that I, I like to apologize in creative ways of apologies.

[Caleb]

Sometimes they're like months later in front of like we, we haven't even discussed, maybe like we just stopped talking about it. And then like several months later we're like talking in front of some friends and she says, oh, And I actually, I did this and he was right or something like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I, I think I've had some similar interactions with my wife. So I, I, I get it. There's some other creative, some other things. Let me kind of go through these quickly because I don't, I know we're a little bit over time, but I want to make sure I get through some of these things. So the biggest business decision, it came up at different times that you all disagreed about. And I think you all were talking about the same thing. And Nicole, you had brought up the employee that you all had disagreed about. And Caleb, you had brought this thing up in the move. Are we talking about the same employee that was involved? You had mentioned, I think Caleb, the employee, was she the operations manager, Is that the same employee that end up. Yep.

[Nicole]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I did, I did find it was interesting how it was brought up because Nicole, you brought it up as like the, like that that was the big disagreement. I think Caleb, you brought up more is because it was more of a recent thing because it was tied to the move in some way. And I can't remember how we got to that, but that's kind of how it came up. But I did find that it was interesting how connected you were to her, Nicole. But you both came to the same conclusion that it was the right decision. Can you all, either one of you, I know this, it seems a little fresh. So you don't think it went to too much detail. But what do you think the reason is that it was the right move.

[Caleb]

It's just for the good of the firm. Bottom line, there were this, the morale of the firm was, was, is greatly improved now by this move. This move was necessary and it was a move that we were almost afraid to make for a long time time because there were a lot of things that we were relying on this individual for that neither of us had even the know how nor the any kind of desire to know how to do any of the things that she was doing. And it, it kind of just seemed like ah, you know, whatever like we can, we can put up with you know, a few complaints here and there about some minor things or this person's personality because it was just training all over again. The amount of time that we put in it's cost benefit analysis better for us to keep her.

[Nicole]

Yeah, no, we, I think this is something that has been going on for a long time that Caleb has, I think he saw it more than I did because I was really the one delegating a lot of things to her. Caleb wasn't really relying on her much at all. And I also more recently started pressing some people for information because I was being. I was frustrated with the work product. I didn't feel like the. The performance was there for a while, and I was a little bit fed up and started trying to pry for more information. So as soon as I started showing that open door to people, I got feedback that really blew me away away. And, you know, it was just something I knew I had to do, and it was something I had to rip the band aid off, you know, as soon as possible.

[Caleb]

Yeah. You know, actually, now that we're mentioning this, there. There were times in the past where I think I had expressed that we should probably go in a different direction, and I knew that she didn't want to do that. And so, you know, in the last few months or years or whatever, there's been a lot of times where I don't, you know, I didn't. Maybe I wasn't necessarily necessarily covering for her, but I would see things or hear things or notice things, and I wouldn't even bring them to Nicole's attention because it's just going to be like, oh, this again. Like, you know, it's not that serious. We'll just, you know, let it ride.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you're. You're happy with your decision. And so that's. I know it's kind of tough. There's, I think anyone that's run a business for, you know, at least a few years, you, you. You've been through this, a very similar situation. So I know it's tough, but you both sounds like you took a very objective approach to it, like, this is what's best for the firm. And so I think that's. Which ultimately is probably best for the marriage as well, because sometimes you have to. You bring that stuff home and it can kind of can kind of get frustrating.

[Caleb]

You know, if anyone. I would say if anyone's list ends up listening to this, who's, you know, starting out or trying to get to the place that we're at, I would give them the recommendation. Especially for, like, when you're a husband and wife duo as owners, you know, being able to remove emotion from any kind of business decision is really going to help for. For clarity and efficiency and a lot of things. So, you know, just keep that in mind when you're surrounding yourself and putting together your team. Obviously you want to care for these people like family, but there do have to be Certain parameters that go along with that, so, you know, you. You don't end up being manipulated.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's good advice. So the. The decision to. To work together, and it sounds like, Nicole, this is something like you sort of. It was your idea. And I know that, like, Caleb, you had some. Some financial things that were kind of tied up that you had to get resolved first. But other than that, did you all, either of you have any reservations about potentially, you know, working together, partnering with each other?

[Caleb]

No. Like, it's not for me. Like, I. I told you about that conversation I had in Marco island, and it always just kind of stuck with me, and I didn't get the guy's number, and we never talked again or anything. I couldn't even tell you his name. I just always remember being like that. This guy's living the life I want to live. He told me, if you can do it, you got to do it. That's the ticket. And, yeah, there was really never much hesitation for me. I just wanted that. That condo case to settle. It never did.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Nicole, did you have any reservations?

[Nicole]

No, not at all. Caleb is extremely smart, and I have always wanted to learn from him, not just about law, but various topics. He was always someone that I went to as a resource. So I thought it would be incredible if we worked together. So I was excited about it, and I knew I got to spend more time with my best friend, so I was. No reservations whatsoever.

[Caleb]

Snook in. That's the name of the restaurant in Marco Island. If anybody's ever down there looking for inspiration, just go sit at the bar, just look in, wait for somebody to come.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Nice. Yeah. You really will never find a partner that is a better partner from a business standpoint than a spouse. You just won't. Because, like, they're. They're there with you. Like, they're. They're not leaving. They're not going to take. Try to take a bunch of cases from you. Like, they're building it together. So I do think that that's. It's such a powerful strength. It's. Yeah, I know. I know there are people that do have reservations about it, but it's. If you can, you get the right mix, you know, just. You have to kind of figure things out. At least me and my wife did. We had to kind of figure things out a little bit at first. How does the dynamic work? But once you get past that part, you just. You'll never find a better partner. Did you all have a similar experience? You kind of had to feel each other out A little bit first.

[Caleb]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, we quickly learned our.

[Nicole]

Strengths and weaknesses, and we just played on that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Nicole. What? And this is gonna be my last question. What's one thing Caleb is amazing at that you'll never match?

[Caleb]

Being funny?

[Nicole]

I can be super funny.

[Caleb]

Dancing.

[Nicole]

Dancing. No. I don't know, maybe his ability to cold plunge meditate. Just his. Just the way that he's. I mentioned before that he's unrattled. I think just. Just remain remaining calm under pressure. Pressure is something that I wouldn't say I'll never be able to do, but it's. My blood gets boiling a lot easier than his. So I think that's definitely something that he's better at than me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I did find that interesting because, Caleb, you did say you. You do get nervous and like prepping for a trial and that kind of stuff, but it sounds like the. It's like a duck on water. Like where, like your feet underneath are paddling. But no one else sees it because you did say you're able to come compartmentalize. But I do. Nicole, I do think he gets a lot more nervous than what you might think he does. He just don't see it. He doesn't show it to you as much.

[Caleb]

Okay, that's probably true.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Same question for you, Caleb. What's one thing Nicole is amazing at that you'll never match?

[Caleb]

The negotiating and, like, the business sense. Like, Nicole ran our pre suit division for a couple of years. Years. And just like the numbers of the cases that she was settling and the amounts that she was getting and the relationships that she had built with these adjusters on opposing councils, and they were just like, you know, sending her Christmas gifts and settling all these cases. And no, I. I just couldn't believe it. I still, to this day, I don't think I could. I could run pre suit nearly as good as she has or probably closing new clients too. So, like, selling referral sources, that kind of thing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Love it. All right, I saw ahead, but thank you both for doing this. I know it's not the most comfortable thing to do with. With some of these questions, but hopefully this, you're able to go. Go back and listen to this a little bit and kind of, you know, build off of it and, you know, build a stronger firm and better relationship.

[Caleb]

Awesome. Thank you for having us on, Tyson. That was a lot of fun.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You bet. Awesome. Thank you both. Appreciate it. Have you been hurt by sloppy bookkeeping? Tired of chasing down payments from clients? Is managing your billing turning into a full time job. Our trusted partners at Collect are ready to simplify your invoicing, accounting, client management and collections, all at an affordable flat rate with no surprise hourly charges. Don't let financial headaches hold you back. Contact Collect. That's Collect with a K at Collect Legal. Or call them at 312-825-7013 collect legal because you shouldn't have to suffer in silence.

[Unknown]

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