Finding Your Niche: Trademark Law and Education with Sonia Lakhany

Summary

Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer - "Finding Your Niche: Trademark Law and Education with Sonia Lakhani"

Release Date: December 24, 2024
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Sonia Lakhani

In this insightful episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux delves deep into the world of trademark law and legal education with guest Sonia Lakhani. The conversation spans Sonia's professional journey, the creation and philosophy behind her education brand, the evolving landscape of legal practice areas, mental health challenges within the legal profession, and her thoughts on law school curricula. Below is a detailed summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and concluding thoughts from the episode.

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1. Guest Background: Sonia Lakhani’s Journey and Connections

Sonia Lakhani opens up about her longstanding relationship with Joey Vitale, highlighting the organic way their professional paths intertwined. Sonia reminisces about their initial connection through a Facebook group she started for trademark attorneys, leading to a meaningful friendship reinforced during an ABA tech show breakfast in Chicago.

[01:25] Sonia Lakhani: "Joey's probably one of my favorite people in the trademark world... We just bonded and realized how much we have in common."

Their camaraderie underscores the importance of networking and community in the legal field, setting the stage for Sonia's later endeavors in legal education.

2. 4L Education and Forel: Philosophy and Approach

Sonia introduces her brainchild, 4L Education, a modern spin on continuing legal education (CLE) tailored specifically for attorneys. She emphasizes a hands-on, practical approach that goes beyond traditional CLE offerings.

[03:23] Sonia Lakhani: "4L is an education brand for attorneys that has a modern spin on it... It’s about the how. It’s extremely practical with real-world scripts, templates, sample language, sample documents for literally everything."

Sonia’s methodology focuses on tangible resources like templates and workbooks, ensuring that attorneys can immediately implement what they learn, thereby bridging the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical application.

3. Building a Community-Based Business: Funnels and ABA Partnership

Instead of following conventional lead magnet funnels, Sonia built her business on fostering a supportive community. She created a Facebook group named Trademark Attorneys Lawyers (TM Fam), which organically attracted members interested in trademark law.

[14:01] Sonia Lakhani: "People join the group and see how supportive and collaborative it is. I host monthly free trainings, CLEs, and Zoom happy hours."

A pivotal moment in her journey was partnering with the American Bar Association (ABA) to streamline CLE accreditation across multiple states. This partnership significantly expanded her reach and credibility.

[21:30] Sonia Lakhani: "Once we became connected with the ABA, it was a godsend. Now we're accredited in almost every state, which is insane."

4. Trends in Legal Practice Areas: Shift Towards Trademarks and Other Flexible Fields

Sonia discusses the current trend of lawyers migrating to practice areas like trademark law, personal injury, and estate planning. She attributes this shift to the desire for better work-life balance, increased autonomy, and reduced stress.

[29:08] Sonia Lakhani: "Trademarks is an incredibly lucrative field. It’s tied to entrepreneurship and new businesses, which are increasing. It's just super appealing because you're not confined to a state and you can practice from anywhere."

Sonia highlights that these fields offer flexibility, lower overhead costs, and the ability to scale without the traditional constraints of more litigative practice areas.

5. Mental Health in the Legal Profession: Addressing High Stress and Suicide Rates

A critical part of the conversation centers on the mental health challenges faced by lawyers. Sonia cites alarming statistics on suicide rates among attorneys, emphasizing the urgent need for support systems within the legal community.

[36:00] Sonia Lakhani: "Suicide rates are 8.8% for lawyers versus 4.3% for all adults. That is a really scary number."

Both hosts discuss the relentless stress of the legal profession, exacerbated by digital pressures and the absence of clear boundaries between work and personal life. Sonia advocates for the importance of community and support networks to mitigate these mental health risks.

6. Entrepreneurship for Lawyers: Embracing Uncertainty and Chaos

Sonia elaborates on the entrepreneurial mindset required to run a successful legal practice. She underscores the necessity of being comfortable with uncertainty and multitasking, traits essential for navigating the complexities of law firm management.

[52:10] Sonia Lakhani: "Entrepreneurship isn’t for everyone. It requires a comfort with uncertainty and a willingness to embrace the chaos that comes with running a business."

Her passion for problem-solving and adaptability shines through as she describes how her ability to juggle multiple roles—from legal expert to marketer—has been pivotal in her success.

7. Law School Curriculum: The Concept of the Missing Year (4L)

One of the most thought-provoking segments revolves around Sonia’s idea of a "4L year"—an additional year post-3L dedicated to practical exposure across various legal practice areas, similar to medical rotations. This concept aims to empower law graduates with informed choices about their career paths.

[60:38] Sonia Lakhani: "4L is the missing year. It’s what rotations are in medicine... Practice areas, lifestyles, and make an informed decision rather than ending up wherever you landed."

She advocates for curriculum adjustments to include more practical training and elective options, ensuring that law students graduate with a clearer understanding of their desired practice areas and lifestyles.

8. Personal Anecdotes: Law School Experiences and Career Choices

Towards the end, Sonia shares her personal journey through law school, initially resistant to the idea of practicing personal injury and criminal defense. Her transformative experience in a trademark class with Professor Sarah Stadler ignited her passion for trademark law.

[55:10] Sonia Lakhani: "I took a trademark class to fill a gap and fell in love with the practice. The rest is history."

Her candid recounting of struggling through law school and finding her true calling serves as an inspiration for aspiring lawyers to seek out their genuine interests rather than conforming to external expectations.

9. Closing Thoughts: The Future of 4L Education

Sonia wraps up by reiterating the evolving nature of legal education and practice. She envisions 4L Education as a continual learning journey, adapting to technological advancements like AI and changing legal landscapes.

[60:41] Sonia Lakhani: "4L is a stand-in for the rest of your learning because it's true—every time you think you know something, there's always more to learn."

Her commitment to lifelong learning and adaptability underscores the dynamic future she envisions for legal education and practice.

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Conclusion

This episode of Maximum Lawyer offers a comprehensive exploration of trademark law and legal education through Sonia Lakhani’s experiences and innovative approaches. From building supportive communities and leveraging partnerships for CLE accreditation to addressing mental health challenges and reimagining law school curricula, the conversation provides valuable insights for lawyers seeking to find their niche and thrive in an ever-evolving legal landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• "[01:25] Sonia Lakhani: Joey's probably one of my favorite people in the trademark world... We just bonded and realized how much we have in common."

• "[03:23] Sonia Lakhani: 4L is an education brand for attorneys that has a modern spin on it... It’s about the how."

• "[14:01] Sonia Lakhani: People join the group and see how supportive and collaborative it is. I host monthly free trainings, CLEs, and Zoom happy hours."

• "[29:08] Sonia Lakhani: Trademarks is an incredibly lucrative field. It’s tied to entrepreneurship and new businesses, which are increasing."

• "[36:00] Sonia Lakhani: Suicide rates are 8.8% for lawyers versus 4.3% for all adults. That is a really scary number."

• "[60:38] Sonia Lakhani: 4L is the missing year. It’s what rotations are in medicine... Practice areas, lifestyles, and make an informed decision."

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This structured summary encapsulates the essence of the podcast episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the key themes and takeaways discussed between Tyson Mutrux and Sonia Lakhani.

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Sonia Lakhani]

Foreign.

This is maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

Sonia Lakhani. Welcome to the show.

Hey. Thank you. Thank you.

This is exciting. So we were just talking off air a little bit about our. Our mutual buddy, Joey Vitale. So how did. I just wonder, like, how did the two of you all meet up? Because I think the world of Joey is fantastic. And so just curious how the two of you all met.

Joey's probably one of my favorite people in the trademark world. I mean, we go way back and I. It's actually hard for me to remember exactly how we connected initially, but I feel like I remember it being somewhere through, like this Facebook group that I started years ago for trademark attorneys. And so I invited, you know, anyone that I knew. And then I was like, invite others. And so I think he ended up in the group and started following what I was doing and we just started chit chatting. And then I was in Chicago, I think the following year, which again was years ago, but for that year's ABA tech show. And I was like, hey, I'm in Chicago. And like, we all know, you know, we know you're Mr. Chicago. Like, you live here. You're, you know, so, like, I'd love to meet up with you. And we had a really, really lovely, like, cute breakfast coffee and we just bonded. And I, you know, you realize Joey's an amazing human being and it's just hard not to love him. But we just realized how much we have in common. And so we just started hanging out and being friends. And that was like six, five or six years ago. Seven years ago.

Yeah, I don't. I remember. I actually, at first, I couldn't remember how I met him. Now I Do I, I remember the first time I ever met him. I think was. It was through Jim and he and I, I think we had lunch with him. I, I don't know if this is the first time I met Joey, but I know that we had lunch with Joey in St. Louis and it was at a Mexican restaurant. And he's always just been so, he's so nice. I've never seen him get mad. That's like, he's just like always like smiling and happy and always willing. Like we. So we just announced that we are bringing the conference back next year. And so he was like one of the first people to say, hey, like what do you need? Like what, what help do you need? And it was just a really, it was just, it's. He's just a helpful person. So that's, that's um, that's really cool. But I want to talk about forel. I think 4L is a really cool thing. When you, it was funny because when you said it, you're, you're. It was funny how you wanted to explain it to me, but I, I. The moment you said it, you got it right.

Yeah.

And so I was like, oh, that's a perfect name. So what is Forel? Because that's, it's such a cool thing. I think it's really neat.

It's my baby. I mean, you see my face lineup, I'm like, My baby. 4L. That's my baby. I mean, I know it's, it's so silly. I'm like, you know, if like law school, every single attorney is like, you don't need to do it. Like, I got it. But for everybody else, I have to like explain what the years of law school are and how they're titled and then why what I do as an education brand and you know, but attorneys almost always get it and they're like, oh, I see what you did there. And I'm like, thanks. It's so nerdy. It's so great. I love it. As a trademark lawyer, I think if you are going to start any like venture, that's not your law practice. I think there's an immense pressure on us to come up with a really good name just because that's our industry and you were sort of like self judging ourselves. So I was like, it can't just be nothing. It can't just be Academy or this. It's gotta be really good. And so 4L is, I mean, obviously so we get where the name came from, but the idea is that it's continuing Education, but the way that we need it and the way that we've never really gotten it right. So in the past and up until currently, like you have a one hour here or like a CLE there and you barely scratch the surface of something. And it seems to be this idea, you know, as we're learning how to practice law, that it's like, well, you need to do this. Okay, but no one ever shows you how. How do I do that? Or make sure you don't do this. Okay, well, could you show me? Right. And I think there's like this hidden smoke and mirrors of like, well, if I share with you the underside of what I really do and screen share and actually show you how to do it, then like, that's less for me to eat and then your plate gets bigger. And that's just, that's not something I've ever really believed. And so when I started teaching, it was always in my mind of thinking about a way to bring a brand together that's not a CLE company. Right. Like, you don't come to us just to like get a couple credits at the end of the year out of the way. Although it's a nice bonus that we have. We offer CLE credit now thanks to the, our partnership with the aba. But yeah, it's an education brand for attorneys that is. Has a modern spin on it. And so we, you know, what the what is. But we talk about the what, but really it's about the how. It's extremely practical with real world scripts, templates, sample language, sample documents for literally everything, checklists, worksheets, workbooks, guidebooks. So we really focused on the tangible versus just watch this thing and it's boring. And so like, and you know, like, I tell jokes, I tell stories. Like I teach the way that I talk and am. And I think that has been the separator between what I do versus, like what everybody else does might be, you know, watching.

So I think all that's really cool. I'm sure that was a lot of work to do. I, the, the thing that was really interesting, you, you said the thing about. And I hadn't thought about it, like the name, like the name 4L and like, you know, like, I never thought about what your trademark needs to look like and like what a client might think or a customer might think. I don't know if you, the people that, that were joint 4L to like watch all your courses and everything to see you instruct. I like, I don't know if you call them, you know, Students. What do you call them? What, what's the name for your students?

I mean, they're attorneys, but they're my babies and they're my students. And so I have like lovingly taken on like the big sis, in some cases auntie role. Cuz I'm like, wow, we're getting up there in the age discrepancy now. Like, it's not, you know, and you know what's interesting is sometimes I'm, for some students, I'm a lot younger than them in age, but I am quite far more experienced when it comes to specifically trademark experience. And so then you have that. And so to me, there's no hierarchy. It's just you're a student in the program. But I mean, I really just have translated who I am in real life to everything I do in my work life, which is how I think it should be. And so in my real world, the real Sonia is I'm a hugger. I'm very like loving and doting and just very casual and friendly. And so like we really, I mean, I call, I call my students the fam. Like, I'm like, hey, family. Like. And so the abbreviation for the two weeks of trademarks, which is the leading course under 4L education, we've got a lot, but that's the leading course and that's the one that we started with. It's two weeks of trademarks and it's abbreviated to W2TM, right? Like just for. As an acronym. And so whenever I write, I'm like, hey, TM fam. Like, hey TM fam. Because that's how I see us. And so I think that's how my students have started to think about it. And so it's kind of like when you walk into the 4L world, you drop the attorney, you drop the, like, we can like relax your shoulders and you could just like give me, get a warm hug and like a cup of hot chocolate and just like sit back and be like, okay, it's not so bad out there, you know. So yeah, that's really the idea behind the brand, is that it's it. The attorneys are my students, but you know, we're also colleagues and serious when we need to be.

So we, we're all. We can also be a pretty judgmental bunch. And so I think the, the. I like that you had thought through okay, The. And it seems like such an obvious thing in hindsight maybe, but it's, I'm glad that you thought through the whole, okay, I'm going to be Judged by. By my students. They're going to want to see that I've got my trademark game on point. And, and because, I mean, because you're right. Otherwise it'd be like, like, why would I trust this lady? Like, what, like, what do you. Like, your trademark sucks. You know what I mean?

Your stupid name.

Like, yeah, you have to be like, there's, there's definitely. When it's almost like. It's almost like a mix of branding and trademark, though, where like, you got to make sure that you're branding. That's why I think it's cool about Joey stuff too, is his branding is always really, really good. But like, like, same thing. I. I think that almost people view trademark as brand, like branding in a way where. So you have to make sure your branding is good too, which is a. Another hurdle that you almost have to get past.

It is. And there's an immense pressure when. That's when you protect brands for a living. You see the best of the best, right? You see the cutest names, the most creative spins on things and you're just. And I mean the coolest innovations too, like product ideas that people have and cool serve new off. We're on the front. We have a front row seat to all that stuff. But then when you try to do your own thing, it's. There's a little bit of a pressure there. And so two weeks of trademarks is the leading course that I have. And so. And that was what I started with in 2017. And you know, that's really not that impressive of a name. I went and I was like, how. What's the smallest duration of time I can teach this course in. I can do it in two weeks. I like a little alliteration. And that was that. But I mean, really, it's a pretty descriptive name. And in the trademark world, we don't really like descriptive terminology. Right. Like, we don't want your name to describe what you do, but that's like what every entrepreneur.

Why is that? I wanted, like, because it's interesting. So whenever I was in. In more like in business school, I had a, like, the marketing was. They always talked about how you want to. You want a name that says what you do and that. That flies in the face, what you just said. So I know. Why is that?

It's. This is like our kryptonite. This is the dichotomy. It's just like we're. We're stuck. Like, this is the world we live in of like the tussle. Because. Yeah, of course you want your name to suggest what you do, but the law instructs us otherwise. The uspto, just by definition and by their examination procedure, the Lanham act, which is where the federal trademark law comes from. Like all of the statutory. They don't like descriptive names. It's. They're not registerable. And the idea. I mean, so you have the legalese side of it. It's like, okay, it just doesn't fit the statutory. Okay, great. But, like, in real world, what that means is they don't want me to open up, you know, a shop that's called New York Pizza, if that's the type of pizza I sell. Now, as a business owner, I want everybody to know that that's what I sell. Right? Because, like, you come here for not Chicago style pizza, but New York style pizza. But there's. Under trademark law, they're like, well, that's so generic and descriptive that, like, it literally is the thing that you do. And so anybody should be able to say that they're New York Pizza. So instead of. It would be like Uber saying ride sharing service. And it's like, no, you got to come up with a name for it, even though that's what you do. Whereas I bet you Uber really would have loved to just call themselves rideshare, but you can't, because. And it's like the Happy Birthday song in a way. Everyone should be able to use it so no one owns it, you know?

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. The thing about Rideshare, it's funny, I don't know if they called that Rideshare at the beginning, you know, Like, I just don't know if they did. I. I know that rideshare. Did. The name existed because, like, you could. I remember. I don't know if you have these where you live, but where. Where we live, like, there's some areas where you can. You can park and people can, like, ride together. Carpool, Like.

So it's called Kiss and Ride.

Kiss. Is it? Wait, wait, Kiss and Ride.

Yes.

Kiss. I've never heard that phrase.

Really? Oh, yeah. All over the east coast, it's called Kiss and Ride.

Kiss and Ride.

Is that like Kiss and Ride Kiss with a little N apostrophe. Right? Kiss and Ride. Yeah.

Why is it called that?

Because I guess you kiss your honey before you get out of the car or something. I don't know. Like, I have no idea. Yeah, I have no. No clue. Yeah.

That's funny. No.

Yeah.

So, okay, this is called carpooling, but that's Also, like, I've seen it, like, ride sharing. So I don't know if it was used. I really want to go back and look and see, like, if Uber, if they actually use that phrasing early on, because I feel like that didn't really become a mainstream term until later on. I don't know. I wonder.

Yeah, you're right. You're right. I don't remember it being popular back then either until way later. And so, you know, yeah, you have to pick a catchy name, and then you've got to throw more marketing and branding and advertising and colors and all behind it so that now people know it to be what it is. So Starbucks, Right. Has nothing to do with coffee. Doesn't indicate anything. But you see that green umbrella and that block lettering from far away? Right? I mean, you knew. I'm sure you can tell this is a Starbucks cup without it doesn't even say Starbucks anymore. Yeah. Wow, that's wild, right?

I mean, that's funny.

Starbucks. Yeah. Crazy.

All right. What do you drink? What are you drinking? I'm just curious.

Coffee. I'm not fancy. No, I'm not.

But for anyone that's never had the brown sugar, oat milkshake, and espresso, it's really.

Is that your jam?

It's. My wife loves it, and I. So I end up, like, I get it quite a bit now because it's. It's really good. It's. It does it. It's actually, if you look at the nutrition, it's not too bad. It's actually not as bad as you might think when it comes to some of the other sugary drinks that they have. The. So the number of the calories and the sugar is not as high as you might think. So it's actually pretty good. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Well, something I'm curious about is, like, your funnel. Like, what does your funnel look like? Because you talked about the course. Walk me through, like, what the funnel looks like, and then at the other end, as I'm guessing, to join 4L. Is that. Is that how it is or what? You tell me. I don't want to assume anything.

No, that's okay. Yeah. So, I mean, I. The crazy thing about 4L is that in a way, it doesn't follow a lot of the, like, typical teachings of, like, offer a lead magnet, let people download it, and then join your email list, and then X, Y and Z. I learned about all of that later. And so it's not to say that I'll never have a lead magnet, but to this day I still don't have one. People join because. Yeah, so the funnel, if you want to even call it that. I mean, I guess I kind of like accidentally backed my way into this brand and business. I didn't start out doing this. I had a law practice. Still, still do, you know, and that was my jam. I was on a trademark lawyer have me on law practice. Cool. And the way it started was that people would see my lifestyle and the freedom that I had. And I did and still do. Like I would always be on a plane. Like I would be that person that again before COVID where it was like, you know, 300 flight deal, non stop to wherever and you. I would be the person. Like, I'll do that. And I would throw my laptop in my bag, throw a few clothes in, you know, whatever, and I'd be gone the next. I would. But I remember one time I was like, I want to go to Switzerland. And two days later I was on a plane. So people would see stuff like that and just be like, you don't go to court, you don't have to be anywhere. Like, do you have like rich parents? I'm like, no, I know. Far from the case. Like the opposite. So people would start asking. And in lawyering, right, it's like it comes down to your practice area. It's all like medicine in a sense, right. It's like your field, within the field is going to dictate your lifestyle and autonomy and freedom. So if you think about medicine, that's an analogy I love because like doctors and lawyers are always in the same conversation, but they do things so differently over there. So if you're an OB GYN, your lifestyle is going to be like 2am roll call. Like, you know, patient goes into labor, you got a beeper, right? Like very different than, let's say radiology where you have an appointment, it's at 2pm, goodbye. Like we've done it and we're by right anesthesiologists, same thing. They show up, they do their dance and it's like, see ya. Like, there's no, you know, aftercare necessarily or like extra stuff. And so if you look at practice areas within law as well, a family lawyer is going to have a very different lifestyle. You're going to court, your client is a lot of drama and tears and just stress. So attorneys and colleagues would look at my life and they're like, you don't seem miserable, you seem happy. What are you doing? You're always On a plane, you're always pittering around somewhere. And so that's how it started. And so when I talk about or when we ask about, like, a funnel and how I backed into it, I was like, well, I'm just living my life. People are asking questions about what I do, and I'm like, why practice? Trademark is the best area in the world. Like, hands down, right? It's paperless, electronic. You can practice it from anywhere. You can take clients nationwide, no matter what bar you're in. You can physically be in the Bahamas, you know, globally, literally anywhere. And as long as you have WI fi, because it's all electronic filing, so it's. There's no court, there's no anything. And so it really, in a sense, is like the dream practice area. And so when people started asking me what I do, and then I shared it, and they're like, well, how'd you learn how to practice trademarks? And I'm like, you know, that's a good question. How did I learn? I got yelled at a lot by my previous partners and bosses, and I just learned by doing. I mean, we don't learn how to practice law in law school. I know, right? Yeah. And so when we talk about building a funnel, it came so much like that term, that word. All of that came so much later than what I'd actually done, which is all I did was create a free Facebook group. And it was just called Trademark Attorneys slash Lawyers. That's what it's still called today. And it. Now we're at. That's it. I know. I just. I was like, anti. You know, Russell Bronson would. Would turn in his insides, would turn if he heard how crazy and not methodical this was. But that's the thing. I didn't set out to build a business. I set out to build a community that really. That's what I wanted, is I wanted to share what I was doing, and I wanted to meet other trademark attorneys. And I just remember how hard it was to feel like I had somebody that I could message or call or ask something instead of admitting to a client or to the partner that, like, I didn't know it. Right. And so community is so important when you're by yourself because you don't have that person down the hall, so to speak, to go duck in and ask questions. So the funnel is that I have a huge Facebook group. It's called Trademark Attorneys Lawyers. And that's the TM Fam. And so we started building that, and people join that. That's really how they come in or they'll start following me on Instagram. I'm trademark lawyer lady. So no matter how you spin it, it's just trademarking every which direction and the conversations to start. And now I'm not, you know, and it's still not really a funnel, if you want to think about it. People join the group, they see how supportive and collaborative it is. And then I host like monthly free trainings and cles and education and stuff. And like a zoom happy hour. Like it started during the pandemic where I'm like, we're all sitting at home. Anyway, join me at 5:00 Eastern and you know, let's have a little beverage, a coffee, a tea and chit chat. And I still do that once a month for free. Anyone can come and you know, hang out, ask questions, do whatever. So that's the funnel, if you want to even call it that. But it's not, it's. It's still to this day is a community that really is so supportive of the people that are in it. It's really great. Yeah.

Yeah. We did some, I remember early on in Covid, we had done some happy hours, but Russ Nesevich had done a bourbon tasting where he had, he had filled a bunch of little bitty bottles of different bourbons and numbered each of them and then shipped them to, out to us. Like it was like people all over the country. It was the coolest thing. And then we went through and did a bourbon tasting. It was such a cool, maybe the coolest thing I did virtually during all of that. It was, it was such a cool thing. So it's hard to. But it's, it really is like with us, you're right about the community. That's what I love about the guild so much is that you've got, like when you're running a law firm or you're running like a company or anything, you were. It's a very lonely position. Even no matter what the size of the, of the company is. It is a, it's a very lonely position sometimes because a lot of the decisions fall on you. You like the direction of the firm or the company. It's dependent on you. Right? It's, it's a very. So it's nice to be able to bounce off ideas from off other people or get new ideas like whenever. Like Legal. Legal's changed quite a bit since I've started practicing. So in 14 years, like the shift in the practice in general has, it's, it's made a massive shift and I Think with AI, it's gonna, we're gonna see an even more rapid shift over the next five years quite a bit. It's going to be a very drastic change. I think we're going to see. So I think that, like, having that community to kind of go to is, Is really necessary. So I think that. I think it's cool. I think, I think it's, it's good that you're doing that. I want, Yeah, I want to shift gears a little bit because, like, there's a thing, a lot of things you, you were saying there, and I want to get to. But I want to go back to something about the partnership with the aba. And I was curious, like, how that, how that works, how that started, because I think that's a, that's a pretty cool thing. I, and I, I'm sure that a lot of people did in different practice areas. They're not necessarily, you know, in the ABA or don't do a whole lot with the aba, but they at least know what the ABA is. So I am curious how, like, how that started and what, what, what does that look like?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, from the beginning, once I realized that there was a passion for me to teach and that there was material that people were interested in learning from me, I was like, oh, like, we, we're heading in a direction of a course and courses and trainings. And I'm like, oh, okay, so this is becoming a thing. And, you know, you're not. It's not just chit chat. And, you know, I started all of this right around the time that, like, coaching and masterminds and all this stuff were making their way into legal. Right. They've always been a thing, but they were making their way into legal, where it was becoming more and more common to do it right. And legal, we're always a little bit of a late adopter to other things that other businesses are doing, other industries. And so from the beginning, it was always in my mind that if you're gonna do this, it's not going to be, you know, what everyone is assuming it is, or this, like, cute little, like, oh, my gosh, we're just gonna, like, coach and chit chat and, you know, like, circle and talk, because that's. I felt like I had been disappointed by programs I'd been part of. And so they were all just like, fluff and you don't really learn anything. You don't really take away anything, and that each piece that you're part of was just enough to get you and then to buy into the next level and then more after that and more after that. And, you know, you're. It's like, that was not what I wanted to do. And so the legitimacy of what I teach, because it was. It's substantive law. It's literally how to practice trademark law as an attorney from the beginning, how to have a client conversation, how to do a consultation, how to run a trademark search, how to deal with all the application stuff. What do you do when there's problems? There's, you know, so it's so substantive that CLE credit was always at the top of my list once I realized that there was a proven concept here that I had a knack for teaching, that my students were enjoying my material and they were getting results from my course. Right. Because that's. That's another thing too, is that results is huge. Is like, you, you can't just be like, oh, yeah, I learned something cool. But it's like, no, I. I took what you taught me and monetized it. And now my law practice has higher revenue, you know, to the tune of my first 50k month, my first 100k month, because of what you, Sonia, taught me in this course. And it's all substantive law. Right. It's not like a get rich quick scheme. And so CLE was always at the top of my list. But it's also a huge animal. It's like the equivalent of Mount Everest to be climbing. I mean, because it's great for just your state that's pretty easy to do your home bar. Easy. You phone them and say, hey, you know, I'm doing this great. You're one of our own. This is what you do. And you can share that. Yeah, you can get a couple credits in this one state. Great. That's great if you're in that state. But like, again, and if you think about the appeal of trademarks is that you can be anywhere, your clients can be anywhere. So I am really on, like a national level in a sense. I'm on a global level, because anybody could be anywhere who wants to learn trademarks. So that was always big for me. I looked into CLE and every time I tried, I would Google it and look at it. I'm like, oh, God. And it's like California has all these rules and forms and whatever. And then of course, it's different than New York and neither are similar to Ohio or Illinois or Texas. And everyone has different rules and require credits and what you can get credit for and the number. And I'm like, Every time I try to do it, it was so daunting. And then I would just close the computer and do something else because that's who I am. And I'm like, oh, God. But I'm also not a quitter. So it's tough. I want what I want, but I also get overwhelmed by, like, the process. But that doesn't mean you just keep trying to attack it from different directions. I'm like, okay, what if we think about it this way? What if we think about it this way? And time went on. And I don't remember exactly how I got connected with them, but they. It was around the time, like one to two years ago that they were introducing an accreditation service that I guess an accreditation Assistance service. Because it's very important. They're very clear. And I want to translate that, that clarity that they're not an accrediting body. The American Bar association, the ABA is not an accrediting body. They are sort of there to help, right? They're there to provide assistance with the accreditation process, but they're not approving anything because that's up to this. It's a risk. State regulatory situation. So once they rolled out this accreditation service, you know, and then they obviously have a process of looking at what you're doing and what you offer. And one thing led to another, and, you know, I mean, I knew my material would qualify, but it was just a matter of getting in the right hands. And so once we became connected and we had that partnership, that's been a godsend because now they're the intermediate area of, okay, Ohio needs this, this will be totally fine, and in the following states. But if you want Nebraska, it's this or blah, blah, blah. And they just, you know, so it's the, the team I always wanted. And so it. Once we got there, it was so fast. And now we're in almost every. We're accredited in almost every state, which is so insane because it's like the course is like 30 to 40 something hours or more of material. And 20. Almost 30 of those hours, 28 to 30 of those hours are CLE hours. I mean, especially if you're in a rollover state, which. My home bar is Georgia. I'm not from Georgia, but I went to. I went to Emory and started my career there. And Atlanta is like my second home, basically. So Georgia's my, my home bar. They let us roll over credit. So I just keep rolling, you know, so if you're in a rollover state, it's even, even better. But yeah, it to, to get from nothing to here now, you know, eight years late. Seven. Eight years later is really awesome.

Yeah. Missouri is a rollover state. It's. It's great. It's easy for you now with, with the aba. Missouri has always been pretty easy. Like I remember early on. So. But now that you. They have somewhere, you just submit it on the website. Used to like you would email them, if I remember correctly, and like you'd get a response within like 30 minutes. Sometimes approved. And. But they, they started this audit, this online system where you submit or CLE credit and it's, it comes back pretty quickly. I mean, I'd say at most a day. And it's so it is. Some states are easy, some states not so much because we've, we've done that with Max Law Con. We've gotten CLE credits before for. And it was, it was a real pain in the butt. So having something like the ABA to have that as like that intermediary, that's a, that's a pretty big deal.

It is. It was a game changer for sure.

So I want to ask you about. It seems like there have been probably three main areas where people have been sort of flooding to. From other practice areas. And I want to get your thoughts on it. I feel like people have been flooding to personal injury quite a bit. They. Because they think they've got this idea that you. Except I've literally heard people say this. You send a letter and you get a million dollars. It's like, okay, all right. Is that how it goes? Not so much. Yeah. So. But they, so they have the idea that, oh, it's going to be really easy and I'll make a lot of money. Right, That's. But then also they have. I've seen it with estate planning and then trademarks where they. Because it is a different lifestyle. Personal injury is a way different lifestyle than what you have. What estate planning attorneys have there is like a lot of the estate planning attorneys, they've got the probate side of things. Many of them, not all of them, but many of them do. So that you had. That part is more like injury in that you've got the litigation component of it. But if you're just doing strictly estate planning and you're strictly doing trademark, that's a different lifestyle like you're talking about. You can kind of do that from anywhere, especially with trademark, because that's something where it's, it's a national thing. You can, you don't. You're not confined to a state so just wondering, are there other reasons, like why. I guess generally why do you think that the legal profession has seemed to sort of flood to those areas specifically? Just I wonder because maybe there's something else I'm not missing. But I, to me it's like, okay, lifestyle for the estate planning and the trademarks. And then, you know, people think that it's easy money on the PI side. So I wonder what your thoughts were on those though.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, I think we're in a season where people are realizing they have options. Right, right. Like, and if you think. And I get how we got here because if you think about just when you're in law school, you are essentially at the time that, you know, we were, I'm class of 2010, so I'm coming on year 15 at this point. And so it's changed a lot. But at that time, if you think about it, you're told and kind of taught, hey, big law or bust. Right. Small law, working for yourself, medium sized law firm lawyering is like not really presented as an option now. Things are evolving, but we're in a season where people are reevaluating their options because you're no longer confined to just the job you got. The first job you got is essentially the practice area that you're stuck with. And it a lot, for a lot of people, it wasn't a choice. If you ask a lot of. And you, you have interviewed so many attorneys, so you could probably speak on this more than me. But like, yeah, like if you ask an attorney, well, how did you get in your privacy area? Well, I graduated from law school, I got a job and it just happened to be at this firm. And the work that was given to me, you know, for very few attorneys, is it this. I set out to practice this area. This is what I was interested in. I went to school to be a public defender and that's what I do. Right. The rest of us, it was just. You fell into it. And again, it's unlike the medical profession where they have a way to sample all the different lifestyles and practices. They have rotations. You spend six to eight weeks shadowing with an ob GYN and anesthesia and radiology and you cardiology and you do all the different ones and you get to make the choice. We don't have that. And so I think the reason we're seeing this mass revaluation is because the rubber has met the road. Right. People are exhausted, they're burned out. Attorneys have an all time level of Stress. And I think with the world becoming so digitized and social media, you never get to take a break now. And so you're always on. And if you're always on in a field that's high stress, well then you're just always stressed out that there used to be boundaries. So it's the intersection of people, people getting burned out because the world is so digitized. There's no more boundaries. Social has, Social media has taken everything to another level and people are exhausted and burned out and they're realizing they have other options. And that's. I call trademarks the best kept secret because it is. I mean, you can thank me now for a lot of people knowing about it because I really, I just won't shut up. Like I really such a loudmouth. And a lot of people have actually, speaking of criticism, have been like, would you just like, what do you. You're creating a bunch of competitors. And I'm like, that's, you know, no one wins with a scarcity mindset. You know, like, that's not very abundance mindset of you to think that way. There's plenty of work to go around. Trademarks is an incredibly lucrative field. It's tied to entrepreneurship and new businesses, which we're at a. I mean, we're only increasing the amount of entrepreneurs in this, in this country. So that's not an issue. But I think that's why we're seeing a reevaluation of fields and people are flocking to fields that offer just a little less stress, more flexibility, more autonomy. Right. People are, you know, people are having kids, they're having their second or third kid and it starts to become a thing where you're like, I, I'm not saying I just want money to get printed overnight. You know, I mean, maybe some people are like after easy money, but I think most people just want to be able to work a little bit more on their terms and have a little more autonomy rather than a court saying, hey, you have to be here at 8 in the morning. Well, then your morning starts at 6, 6. By the time you wake up and get there in traffic and parking and the security for the front of the courthouse. And it's the, the mental of it too is that I think I talk to a lot of attorneys that are coming from high stress areas, but like typically just litigating litigation and that's just by nature a very combative, adversarial way to live. Right. You're constantly worried about being right and your mind doesn't get to take A break. And trademarks is just like super chill. It's just very chill. It's happy law. And so I think that's why people are flocking to it. Number one, I think the lifestyle of it, but I think also more practically. So that might just be the profession as a whole, but folks who work for themselves and have their own law firms. This is my take on why trademarks and estate planning might be appealing areas to add on is because it's not a zero sum game with either of them. And what I mean by that is that you don't, I mean a lot of people do just commit down to only trademarks and you can build an extremely lucrative practice just doing that. I did it right. Like a lot of people only do trademarks, but it doesn't cost you anything aside from knowing how to do it. It doesn't cost you anything monthly to be able to offer that. And so it's kind of like reviewing a contract if that was part of your service offerings. Like if someone said, hey Tyson, you know, I want to hire you, review a contract and then the next month nobody hires you to do that. You've not had any overhead or anything that you're on the hook for. It's like offer it great. It's extra revenue. If you don't, it's not aside from the knowledge and the investment into learning it, which my course is just one, you know, one very good way to do that. But like, aside from the investment into like a tuition of that. Right, but aside from that, it doesn't cost you anything to offer it. Same with estate planning right now when you get into it more obviously there's tools and software that make it easier to scale and continue building. But by then you have enough clients to warrant and justify those costs. So that's what makes it, I think super appealing is that you're not, there's not this like ongoing startup overhead to be able to offer these two areas. If you're, if you have a firm then you probably have the basics anyway, which is like document management, email, a website, that's all you really need. And so it's. The barrier to entry is aside from making sure you know how to do it, which is important, people gloss over that. But like aside from that there's not a big buy in. And so I think that's the second really big reason why those two areas are, are like becoming more popular.

Yeah. So you were talking about the, the scarcity mindset early on. We got there, there was that we people reach out like, why are you sharing all these things? Like, aren't you scared that people are gonna, like, you know, you're going to create all these competitors. And I agree with you. The whole idea of like the scarcity mindset, it just, it doesn't help anybody. Like, there is plenty of business for everybody. Everybody that I talk to, especially on the injury side, whether you're defense or plaintiff side, there's plenty of work to do there. There is more than enough work to do. So like, that is not, that's not really a concern. The, the, you mentioned like, the, like always being on. So I was, I pulled up the. On. I'm on the ABA website and I, I'm not going to use the word because of the. I think on YouTube we will get. It'll. We'll be moved down the ranking. So I'm not going to use the word. But what, like the issue. That's what happen with the stress. And it comes to the lawyers and everything. I'm kind of looking at this. I want to see if maybe we're having issues, if maybe the issues are increasing with stress. I'm going to go and use the word because people know what I'm talking about. They're listening. So, like, when it comes to suicide. So suicide rates, I wanted to see what it was per year and because, like, if you look at it, it's 8.8% is thoughts about suicide for lawyers versus 4.3% for all adults. And I'd love to see a chart where it shows year by year. So it looks like men 9.1%, women 7.8%. And then. Oh, wow, here's the question. My time as a lawyer has been detrimental to my mental health. And lawyers who thought about suicide, 68.3% and then lawyers who have not thought about suicide, 27.3%. That is a really scary number. That is really a terrifying number. Wow. That is, that is. And I wonder. And I, and I'm not going to pull it up right now, but I do wonder if if that has gone up over time or if it's gone down over time. That's a really scary thing. And it is true. I think about being on all the time is very, very true. I've tried to limit my social media usage. It is, it's, it's very tough though, because it's tied into your business. Right. So you have to be on it. And I know Beck had found a few different platforms for me. Whenever I go on it hides your feed, which is a pretty cool feature. That, like, the feed is the thing that I think gets a lot of people notifications feed, turning all those things off. But that is something that's really, really tough as. I'm glad you brought that up because I do think that that's something that, that I'm so thrown by that number. That number is so scary to me. You know what I mean? That is. I can't believe that I could. Would you have thought it was gonna be that high?

I. I didn't know the exact number. No, I would not have thought it was gonna be that high. But I'm also like, I get. I kind of see where that number came from. And right up there with the S word is substance abuse. Also, we're, we rank so high for that as well. And I, I think again, it's, it's an increasingly accessible. There's just no boundaries anymore, right? Like, you have no boundaries. And so that's one thing, right? Like, it's one thing for you to like, I grew up in the AOL era where you'd like fire up the computer and like let it do its thing. And I'm just like, oh my God. Yeah, I just. We all just aged ourselves. But it is what it is, right? And so weird. I remember a life when we didn't have that, right? And so now I'm like, wow, there's just no separation. You don't leave the office at 5:00. You leave the office when you finally hit the pillow and your phone's like right here, you know, like. And so that's part of it. But I also feel like I would be interested in statistics about specifically lawyers that own their own practices or are a partner versus ones who work for an entity or like an enterprise. Because. Huh. Because think about how many hats that we have to wear when we're on the small and ownership side. It's a trade off. I think it's chocolate and vanilla. You know, it's our apples or oranges. Like, because it's working for somebody versus yourself. There's autonomy and freedom, but at the same time, your hr, your marketing, your it. Like, I just, I mean, yesterday, I've become a coder. I now know like coding languages. And I was fixing HTML coding on the back end of our website because I had to figure it out, I had to learn it. And so, you know, I mean, that's not in my ministry. That's not my. What. Like. But you just have to pick up whatever hat needs to be worn in that moment. And so I wonder if A lot of lawyers feel stress of like, you know, I mean, I see it all the time in our online communities and our groups. Like, we weren't made to be marketers and content creators. And now if you're a lawyer in this digital world and you have your own law practice, you are essentially a content creator also and a salesperson. Right?

So you don't you think that maybe the variety helps us though, because we are doing different things and maybe because we're not, we're not. Like, it's not as monotonous because I get 100% what you mean. I think that we probably face higher stress, but I wonder if it's by us doing so many different things. It does give us that variety that makes it a little bit easier.

I am, I'm with you. I love the variety of it. I think what it has done is basically taught within that subset. So you've got, you work for somebody else or you work for yourself on this side. Then you divide into, are you a business type of lawyer or are you a lawyer, like legal work lawyer? And then you have probably different rates of stress as well. Because if you're a business person and you're business minded, we love this stuff. I love it. Like, I was, I literally was coding the other day. I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. If I was just strictly legal work, that's like my worst nightmare is having to like make videos and be on YouTube and be on social and then worry about taxes. And then I've got to figure out, you know, why are our lead opt in thing is not work, you know, it's a lot of stuff. So I think it depends on how your personality is probably wired. I think the profession has changed, which is why and because of technology. And I think that's what's kind of led us to these new horizons of like, wow, law practice is just evolving. It's just not the same anymore, you know? And I think now that people are getting an idea of what it's about, you can choose more wisely. It's like I love talking to younger lawyers and law students where now the curriculum has changed, right? There's more, so many more, so much more exposure to the type of level that you practice at. Do you want to work for yourself? You want to be in house? Big law is not the only option. And then also the other choice that now you get to make is what practice area, right? You're not just thrown into one. You get to actually have shocker, a vote in it, you know, like, imagine getting to choose your own practice area versus just being thrown in one. So what about you? Sorry, I know you have questions for me, but I was. Did you choose PI or, like, did you get thrown into it and now you just aren't amazing at it and you stick with it?

You had mentioned something earlier. I was gonna, I was gonna bring that up, but we end up getting on to something else, so I had, I wanted. I knew I wanted to do one thing. Try cases. I want to be in the courtroom and try cases. That's the only thing I knew. And I have this yellow pages thing I'll have to try to find. It's in a folder somewhere. But whenever I left State Farm, I had a really good relationship with all the people there, and they gave me this. This was back then. Whenever there's yellow Pages, you know, you and I both graduated 2010. I'm guessing we're around the same. We got to be around.

I'm 39. I'm loud and proud about it. I just turned 39.

Yeah, I'm 41. I'm too. I'm happy about my gray hairs.

I'm like, I don't, I don't have it. Well, let's see. There's probably a few underneath there. Yeah.

Yeah. So, like. But I, I grew up kind of thinking that. Well, one, I grew up not even knowing about injury lawyers, but once I started to, like, learn about injury lawyers grow, like, as I started to grow up, I, I, I kind of viewed them as ambulance chasers. And I mean, no surprise that whenever I left State Farm, they gave me this yellow Pages ad and they, they had taken my face and they'd made a copy of it and put it on, like, a yellow pages lawyer. Like, there's like a picture of the, of the, of these injury lawyers, and it was like, all over these yellow pages. So it was like, actually like several pages. And it was like, it was, it was a really funny gag. It was, it was, it was hilarious. We all thought it was funny. So I never thought, whenever I went to law school that that's what I was going to do. I thought I was going to be. It was going to be more business related, but with litigation, so in a courtroom, but, like, more business related. Never thought I would do criminal defense and never thought I'd do personal injury. But then the first person I worked for as an, for an internship was an injury lawyer, and I was like, oh, this is. I could do this. And then my first job, like, my next internship was actually for an injury firm. It was a volume injury firm. And the. One of the partners was interesting, is like, they have this part of the firm that they don't advertise for. They. They. They're billboard lawyers. They do injury like they do volume personal injury. And they're well known. Known in St. Louis. The. The one of the partners who, like, everyone thought he did personal injury, he actually did criminal defense, which was really kind of funny. So he did this, like, side. Almost like a side gig of, like, criminal defense. And I was. I was exposed to both. And I. And I. I liked the job because it was. It was working as a litigation intern. So I. That's how I started. So I was like, oh, this is litigation. I'm gonna get in the courtroom. And so I worked under a guy, Eli Hidowski, who was just fantastic. So I was like, oh. And I. It made me realize. And I got exposed to both of those. So Eli. And then Ed Brown was the. The partner I'm talking about. Ed and I were really close. He actually. Speaking of the S word, he actually. That. He. That he did that a few years ago. Yeah. Awful. Yeah. So. But it was weird. Like, he was like, this super nice guy and everything, but I don't want to digress too much. He was. So I got exposed to both, and it was like, these are people. Like, these are just people that are in a really bad position, whether it was criminal defense or it was a personal injury, and they need help. And when on the injury side, they were. They're just being taken advantage by people like by the insurance companies, they were being taken advantage of. I was like, wait a second. These are just people that were injured there. They need help. And it wasn't what I thought it was. It was not at all. So it really opened my eyes. And then. So I had the opportunity to start my firm, and I started with criminal defense and personal injury. So I got to choose those things. I guess I kind of. I fell into it in the. In that I took a litigation position early on in. As an inter. As an intern. End up loving it. I. I mean, I could have obviously, you know, applied for other jobs, but all the jobs that I did apply for out of law school were all injury jobs. There wasn't. So I could have applied for others, but I. I wanted to do personal injury because I. I just. It's like, you see this. These people that really. It. It really opened my eyes as to, like, the. The people side of what we do, where, like, they are just a human being. Like, in the criminal defense side especially where like usually what it was was like a person that made one really, really big mistake and they got caught. And that's. It was amazing how many times I saw something like that happen. No priors, they did something really stupid and like really, really stupid, they're not a very good criminal and they got caught, you know like that, that the same thing with personal injury. So that's. Yeah, that. So that's how I, I end up. Yeah, I did eventually chose it but like choose it but like I never, when I joined law school, I never went to law school. I never thought I would actually do that. I, I was actually resistant to the idea that I would do personal injury and criminal.

Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah it's. I love hearing lawyers origin stories of. And I mean you talk to folks who came in wanting to do this and then for whatever reason, like they got more information or exposure to it and they're like, then they change their minds. And rather than it be this happenstance of an occurrence of like oh, I have happened to find out what it was all about and made a different choice that needs to be like a structural part of the curriculum. And again parallel to that the conversation has to be what I mean. And again it's hard because you're making these decisions at what if you go straight through, you graduate undergrad 22 ish, right. 23 again if you go straight through is your first year 2L is 24, 25 when you graduate 26, 27 ish. Right. Bar. I mean but tender age to be deciding what you want for the rest of your life. But that's when you have to ask the questions of like, well aside from practice area that you're interested in and like what material speaks to you and that you want to do and you know, who do you want to serve? It's also like how do you see your life being. Do you want to live in a small town? Well, guess what? That's going to look really. You should probably. That needs to be the parallel discussion next to what practice area you're going to do. So for example, if you want to do entertainment law, that's big city New York, Louisiana. Celebrities, music. Right, Entertainment. Well, if you want, if you want to, you know, take over your parents farm in a small rural town because that's the life you were wanting to have, that's not going to fit. Right. So and again this conversation is now more open than ever, thankfully. But it really needs to be more structured and I think you Know, think, thank goodness we have more autonomy now. But it's by happenstance.

Yeah. So to that point, I got some really good advice early on because we thought we wanted to live in St. Louis. And we, I mean, we did initially, but the. It was go to a law school where you want to live. And I thought that was really good advice. And because you think about like, you. So you went to Emory. So you were like, like, if you wanted to live in Georgia, that'd be a good place to go. And because I know a lot of firms. So the firm that I worked for at a law school, they only hired SLU law grads. They didn't hire Wash U grad. So Washington University, which is in St. Louis, it's a very nice, prestigious law school. But they. That firm and many firms in St. Louis, I, I've spoken to many firms that they only hire sleep. So, yeah, so you, you. But it's also like, you, you get to learn about that city. You. As long as you're depending on the law school, maybe you'll get to meet some of the judges, some of the local attorneys and the people that you're. Especially if you're going to start your own practice, though, your law school classmates are going to be your referral partners. They're going to be the ones that are going to be, you're going to be connecting with on a regular basis. They're going to be your peer group. You're gonna, the people that you go and you have a rough week and you go and you have drinks after, after work, like those. So that's, that's why I think it was, it's great advice that I got and I always try to pass it along to, to anyone else that I talk to because it's such a, it's, it's a very. Like, think about what you did, like how much. And you're, you've been, you're doing trademarks. So I think. And it's more of a national thing, but it could have been easy to go from Emory. And where did, I guess, where did you grow up? My question. Okay, so you, so you, you actually grew up there. But imagine if you went and you went to Emory and then let's say you move to, let's say, like Southern Florida. Like, think about how hard it would be not having any peer group. You don't have. You don't really know many people. You're starting a new practice area. You're having to try to get like, that's not an easy thing to do no it.

You. And again, you have to be really comfortable with going to lunch with people you don't know that well and walking into a room of like, okay, I bought a ticket to be here, but I don't know anybody, you know, to network. And it's like, that's a whole skill. Right? All we heard in law school was to network, to network. And I remember grappling with that to be like, I mean, I truly enjoy meeting new people and I'm absolutely a people person. So, like, it didn't have. It wasn't an issue for me. But I still remember it being a very much like a. Okay, everyone says network all the time. But like, how. What do you mean by that? And again, we had to figure out what that means. I had to essentially teach myself to say, okay, well, when you talk to somebody again, aging ourselves. QR codes were what back then, but like, make sure you get a card and make sure, you know, there's a. Make sure you bring something home. And you know, then I taught myself, oh, you know what? Like every so often, once I have enough, I would like jot down on the back, like how I met them or oh, it's introduced to me by so and so. And then I would go home and be like, oh, it was so nice meeting you through Tyson and da, da, da, blah, blah, blah. I had to teach myself all those little like, how to do it right. So again, now times have changed and we're getting more around that. But we've always known what to do. It's the how that's the hard part, which that with. That's what needs to be taught.

Yeah, I've always been a little bit jealous. I hate using this word. I've always been a little jealous of, of like people that have grown up in households that are taught like little bitty things like that that are like, make sure. And I this. I'll use it as an example. I was taught to do this. But like, if someone gives you a gift, you send them a thank you card. There's like all these other. Yes. Handwritten, like all these little bitty things that are like that you don't always get in with. With like in some childhoods and all that for a variety of different reasons. But like, you see some people, like, man, they were so on point with, with this little bitty thing there and that little bitty thing there. Like sending that that nice little gift for. Because they had this work anniversary. Like, these are things like I've like, yeah, you kind of have to learn as time goes by. I do. I want to read a quote that you had. You had made on a podcast. So I want to get to a couple.

Yeah, let's do it.

We wrap up. You said entrepreneurship isn't for everyone. It requires a comfort with uncertainty and a willingness to embrace the chaos that comes with running a business. So why don't you talk a little bit about that? Give me some more. Give me some more on that.

Yeah, I mean, you're either wired to thrive in it or not. I'm sure it pulls in other tangential issues of, like, adhd. You know, you thrive in chaos. Probably childhood trauma. Not to gloss over that, because it's a very serious issue of which. Which, you know, like, I can actually, on a serious note, relate very much to. So, you know, I think it pulls in your wiring as a person, but you're either comfortable and capable in the chaos of things changing from minute to minute. And, you know, and they say you shouldn't multitask, but it is actually impossible, I think, not to in this day and age. But it's also necessary. But. And I don't. But. But people always say, like, oh, that means you shouldn't do two things at once. Multitasking is that I fired off instructions to two VAs and my assistant before this podcast so that tasks are. They're being done as we talk, because I know I need something done after this, but for something else. So that's multitasking. Not like, oh, I'm talking to a client while I, you know, I'm talking to you and doing two things at the same time where I'm not present in either one. Like, that's not. But you do have to learn how to move puzzle pieces around to be like, okay, we're gonna need that for 5pm so let me make sure, you know, Jessica does this while I'm in the podcast so that there's a draft ready for me after I finish talking about, you know, like, you have to be able to be comfortable with that. And if you're someone who's just like, wait, wait, whoa, I'm overwhelmed. I'm shutting down, then I think entrepreneurship is going to become very challenging because that's all it is. It's just moving pieces. It's a puzzle that you are in charge of putting together, where the pieces are always changing shapes on you in the minute, and you either love it or you hate it. But I think that, yeah, it's not for everyone. I happen to really love it. I don't. I Guess there's something. There's either something very wrong or right in my brain, but I love it. And I actually, if you gave me one task for the day, I would really have a problem with, like, I would really, like, struggle with that because, like, my brain can't think straight when it's just that simple. But when there's chaos to solve, I just, I thrive. It ignites some switch, and I'm like, give me, like, a wrangled, you know, tangled web of stuff, and I'll be like, here we go. This is the solution. So, yeah, I, I do think that it's not for everybody. I, I, I fully say that. Yeah, I do.

I want the neat and tidy is what I want. I don't want the tangled mess. So you can have the tangled mess.

I'll send it to you. I solve problems. I solve everybody's problem. That's what I say. You know, we say it's Team 4L or Team Sonia. It's more so Team Sonia because the team helps me with my law practice. They help with my speaking engagements, they help with my traveling, they help with the education, the cle, like, the marketing, that there's so much that goes on. So we just say Team Sonia. But, yeah, I mean, I just, I'm like, I just solve problems all day. I'm like, what you got? What else? What's next? Okay, this is a solution to try this. And my brain just can zoom out and figure out, like, I don't get bogged down in the details. I'm like, no, this is the solution. And it's just in my brain. It just does something crazy. I don't know.

So I want to know if you, if you really said this.

Oh, no, I probably did.

Yeah. I went to law school because my mom forced me to go. I hated every minute of it. I couldn't have been a worst fit for the structure, for the workload at all. And all that reading, I was like a fish out of water.

Yes. So, yeah, no, that quote was with a friend of mine, Jonathan, who has an amazing podcast called, called the Founding Lawyer, and we. That is absolutely verbatim true, actually. So if you ask me today, why did you go to law school? I'd give you the same answer. It hasn't changed. And my mom knows. She forced me into it. She absolutely knows. And she's like, I stand by it. Look at you. Look at. Look at all you've created. She's like, I have no regrets. I stand by what I did. I forced you into it. Kicking and like, when I say kicking and screaming, I mean to finish it, I should say so. I did it willingly to, towards, towards the, the piece of the end of the road where it was like, okay, I'm graduating at lsat. I did all that by myself because I was like, I don't have a choice. I'll just do it. And I'm like, what's the worst thing about becoming a lawyer? Fine, I'll become a lawyer. You know? And it sounded cool, but once I got there, I was like, oh, I hate this so much. Like. And I went through it, kicking it. Everything about law school is, again, if you didn't say it was law school, but you're like, would you like to go to a higher degree program that requires a lot of reading, a lot of writing, analytics? You're going to be pitted against your law classmates. It's dry material. You're a fish out of water. Oh, you're moving away from everything you've ever known. And it's cold weather, which I'd never had before as a California girl that was bewildered at winter. I had no, I didn't have a winter coat. Like, my, my classmates have a joke. I like, showed up in this, like, zip up hoodie. And I was like, it's so cold outside in the middle of December, like first semester. And they're like, it's because you don't have a jacket. I'm like, this is my winter jacket. It was like a track jacket. I'm like, this is my winter go, you know? Yeah. And I hated it. I came home after. Came over Thanksgiving 1L semester, I think it was, or Christmas break. And I was like, I'm not going back. I can't do it. I was horrible. I. It was like Legally Blunt. I hated it. And. Oh, I hated it. And they were like, right, right back to where. Pack that bag right back up and don't come back until you're a lawyer. And I'm like, I hated it so much. And the, the rest of that lovely story on Jonathan's podcast is that I took a trademark class to fill a gap on a. I think it was like a Thursday or a Wednesday to where I would have four day weekends, because this is how much I hated it. I was like, minimum time spent in class, like, stack all the classes, and now I have a four day. You know, you do these sorts of things as like a student. And I, I took trademarks with a friend of mine because it fit the timeframe we wanted so that we could have four Day, weekends, and fell in love with the practice and the rest is history. But Sarah Stadler. Shout out to Professor Sarah Stadler, who is. Was an adjunct and she shared stories and was just. It was an amazing way of teaching. And I, I was front row on time, which I was always late to every class. You know, when you don't want to do something, you really are terrible at it. It's true. And so I would never go ditch class or come late, come for the exam only where all the other classes A plus rocked it. It's the only class I think I got an A in ever. I was a C law student, bottom of my class. Truly, like, I know, I know it's weird to say it, but it's the truth.

So my, my buddy and I grew up with. He used to always say, seized to get C's, get degrees. That was. Is this Sarah legend?

Oh, I gotta email her. I haven't talked to her in a while. She would be probably really floored at what I've done with the field of trademarks since she left me on my, you know, left me to my vices. That was 2L year in 2008. So, I mean, a lot's happened since then. So I should.

Yeah, you should send her this episode because, like, she clearly had a massive impact on you. So that's really good.

Yeah. I mean, so what do you think.

The price for the domain4l.com is?

I own fourleducation.com is that.

I want to know. I want to. I want you. I want to know if you know what4L.com goes for.

Oh, oh, just 4L. No, I remember 4L being taken because. Yeah, that's why we have education.com. i don't know. Let's see.

You got to give me a guess and I'll tell you. 10,000 is listed on GoDaddy for 288. 888 for 4L dot com. So if you ever buy that, if I, if I ever go to4l.com and I know that and you have it, I'll know that you either got. Either got a really good deal or you're making so much bank that you had to get rid of money.

So it's in my entrepreneur brain is like, I'll become like, I'll do it without the domain. I don't need that domain. I'm just fine with that. Like, I have four education. Like, I'll be just like. I'm like, I'll circumvent it somehow and figure it out, you know. Wow. $188,000.

288,000.

Sorry. 200. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, it's insane.

Wow.

All right, so let's end with, I think, because there was one other quote. So we'll end with 4L. And I want to. The quote is 4L is the missing year. And so I. There's more to the quote, but I do that. I thought that. I found that really interesting the way you put that is 4L is the missing year. So tell us more than what you've already told us about what that means and then tell us what your plans are for it in the future, because I am curious. I'm guessing you're not stopping where you are because you know, the law is never changing. So tell us about the missing year, what that means, and then what your plans are for 4L.

Yeah, yeah. So I meant it when I first birthed the idea to be, you know, the year we should have had of what rotations are in medicine. Right. To sample different practice areas and to go through an analysis of, like, what do I see for myself? Do I want children? Okay, well, that's. You should probably pick accordingly. Law practice areas, you know, do I. Where do I want to live? What do I want? You know, do I want variety in my work day, or do I want to do the same thing every day? Right, then you should, only that would be like all the factors that go in. So when I first started the concept, I thought of it as, well, a 4L year after 3L would have been. That would have been the year. Now you have all your foundation, you've done some electives, and now let's try different practice areas and let's make a decision. And you know, that way you leave with like, you learned how to practice law, which would have been great. And you've put. Spent some time being exposed to your different options so that you have. You're empowered to choose rather than, you know, get sort of end up wherever you ended up. And so that's the first part of it. It turned into, though, sort of a euphemism for the. The rest of your legal career because you really are never done learning. And so my students have kind of put a cute little spin on it. So it's evolved into, you know, the missing year. But it's also like the rest of your. It's. It's a stand in for the rest of your learning because it's true. I mean, every time you think you know something and then you're like, oh, well, no, I guess not. Or that changed on me. Right. I mean, we, I, I know a lot of lawyers feel this, like you were just, just getting the hang of your own firm and all the different. And now we got AI thrown into the mix, and it's like everything you thought you knew is no more. And it's astounding what AI can do, but it's also kind of scary. And we're, we're learning it and trying to use it and trying to catch up with all this, you know, and then the social media keeps changing. It was Facebook then it. Or first it was MySpace. We're old enough to remember those days. Right? Did you have a MySpace page? Do you remember how you did it? Oh, I did it had music and everything. That was where I learned how to code. I learned. We were literally coding to the, it would show different colors and, like, customized profile pages with, like, borders and music and stuff. Yeah, I mean, and then it was Facebook, then it was Friendster at one point. I remember the Friendster days. Yep.

I, so I know the story about Friendster. I don't remember Friendster, but I, I do remember. I know the story about it. And it, it actually should have been the one. There were some mistakes that they made early on that, like, Spinster should have been the one that, that actually beat out Facebook. But I'm sure the founders of Friends are probably kicking themselves. I, you know, I'm gonna adjust that question now that we're like, because I, I, I want us. Before you finish your answer, because I want to. I'm gonna adjust a little bit. Do you think that law school is too long or too short based on the whole idea of the 4L year? Or do you think it just needs to be adjusted to, to make sure that they're teaching the right things? Or is it something else?

I think definitely a bit of the second one. I think that the curriculum definitely needs some adjusting and some tweaking in terms of the kinds of the, in terms of the requirements I think are really important. And so, you know, you have your core subjects right. Like your 1L core year, which, I mean, and now we're bringing in questions of, like, well, they teach that they're required because they're on the bar. Well, why are they on. Why is constitutional law on the, on the bar? Like, you know, like, how many of us are going to become con law lawyers? Do you even know any con, do you personally know any constitutional law lawyers?

Like, so I, I fundamentally disagree with you on this.

Okay. No, no, I Want to hear?

Yeah, because we deal with, with injury stuff like with immunity and all that. We deal with constitutional laws like substantially quite a bit.

Okay.

So it's, it's something we do. It actually does come up quite a bit. Yeah. I would consider like 1983 lawyers like, like, like they do a lot of constitutional. I actually do know a, a guy that he just do, does constitutional law. So like he's like, people will hire him to handle like complex con law issues from like different practice areas. So I actually do. So I do. There are some things like for example, admin law. It was not on the Missouri bar. Ended up being on the Illinois Bar. For me, I never took the, that, that class in law school. I, it's on the bar exam like once every 10 years. I didn't even go to the Barbary class and I, luckily I passed the Illinois Bar when I took it and because it was on there and I was a little worried. But other like that, like there. I think there's a lot of topics that. You're right. I also think that they could probably even shorten it, shorten law school maybe a little bit. Not a whole lot, but I do think you could maybe make it two years. I don't know. But like, I do think the, you're right in that they need to adjust some things that they're teaching in, in law school and then also adjust what is on the bar exam. I, I, here's the, here's a, here's a, a question that I'll ask you that's maybe somewhat controversial. Do you think that they should get rid of the bar exam?

Oh, I don't know. Probably not. But I, I do think it needs some major adjustments. I don't think it was and is at all a litmus of whether you're going to be a good lawyer. I, I've taken many bars. I, I took. I, My first bar exam was DC Actually. It's a long story back. I'm one of the only attorneys you'll meet who's actually taken the DC Bar bar. I had to. It's a long story, but that was my first bar. Then I got barred in Maryland. Actually that's where I was living at the time after graduation. And then I took Georgia and then I took California. I passed all of those except for California. I failed by like three or four points.

I heard it's a beast.

Oh my God. Oh. And so much so that I was like, I'm never, no, I'm not taking it again. I, I Don't, I don't deserve that. I don't, I don't. Sonia does not deserve. I'm not putting myself through that again. And I mean, it was a choice I feel privileged to be able to make thanks to my practice area because I really didn't need the California bar. I wanted it because I'm from here and it was nice. I knew I was going to move probably back home at some point, even for a little bit. Not going to be nice to have it's, I do a federal practice area. So. Yeah. And by then I was running my own practice already full and fledged. So fun fact. Taking a bar exam while running a firm is not a good idea. And you're. The firm suffered. It was like all time low revenue, like and then didn't pass the exam. So it was, the whole thing was a waste of time. But yeah, I don't think it's a good litmus test of whether you're going to be a good lawyer at all. I think for sure, whatever it ends up being topics or format or whatever, it needs to be open book because I mean so much of what we do is being resourceful. We should, there should be a universe of material you can use to find the answer. Because I'm a professional answer finder. I'm a problem solver. Right. That's all we do. And so I think you should have things at your disposal to work from rather than memorization because I don't remember anything and I, that's not how we practice. So I do think it needs some adjusting. I do think we need some barrier to entry though. So like, is that controversial? I, I, I would love to hear more.

There's a lot of people that think that, that we should get rid of the bar exam. I, I'm with you. That there needs be some sort of barrier to entry and like there for a variety of reasons. One of them is like if you are, let's say you're some, you know, wealthy kid that, you know, is kind of being ushered through from undergrad to law school just because your parents want you to get that degree and you like, you could play some politics at some schools probably and get kind of ushered through and just pass the bar or pass the past law school and now you're, now you're a lawyer. And I, there are several people that I went to law school with that I wouldn't say they're necessarily, you know, very political, but they, they made their way through law school and I don't know how, but that that would automatically make them a lawyer. They did not pass the bar exam. And so it's because they had zero work ethic. And I, I do think that there is a. There's got to be some sort of standard to show that you put in the effort during law school to learn the things. Because otherwise we're unleashing these, These, Those people onto clients, you know, and, like, they're representing. I also agree with you, though, that I. I do think I would rather have the current bar than no bar, but I do think it should be. And I. The bar that you and I took is different than the one that they're. They have now, and they're. They're changing it again. Apparently the. The UBE is changing again, or it just recently changed. I. Which I didn't know. But that's. It is. It's going to be a new bar exam. It's supposed. I think that they're trying to make it more. More of a practical bar exam as opposed to something that was like, we took, where was a lot of it was theoretical and all that. And I. So, yeah, I. It is actually some. I know some very, very smart people. I won't mention their names, but there. I know very, very smart people that think we should get rid of the bar exam, which I think is. Is absolutely crazy. All right, so this is the last question I'm gonna ask you. You have. I. I love your energy. I. It's fantastic. I. I just, It's. I. I always. I look for people like we look for when we're hiring people. Like, people that have, like, really good energy. And so I just love. I Like, you can spot someone that's got really good energy. I wonder where that. Where's that come from? Like, what are you drawing from? Like, what well, are you drawing from when it comes to your energy?

I have never, ever been asked that. So thank you for pushing me because I'm like, wow, this is interesting. My theory is that, like, if just off the top of my head, I'm a person that has a lot of love swimming around in a lot of different formats. Like, a lot of love. Love. And so I think it just oozes into different places because it can't get contained. And so, like, with babies and dogs, it's the same kind of love, and it's the same kind of warmth and, like, just love for. I truly love life and I love every. I love the moment of, like, my coffee in the morning to seeing my favorite DJ in concert and everything in between. And, like, Right before this call, I found out that I won a really huge response against the uspto and my clients trademarks didn't get registered when it was like denied. And I'm like, just like, I'm like on that high. So maybe you're catching. But like you would have gotten this on a Monday night too or Wednesday afternoon. But like I'm writing that high. But I think that maybe that's what it is, is that I'm someone that has a lot of love. But I also, I soak in all the highs of life, even though they may not be highs to a lot of people. So like I marvel at a lot of stuff because to me it's the, it is the simplicities of certain things that bring me joy. But I do seek, I take that joy in all the moments and I think it just sort of like overflows. It would be like pouring, you know, into like a glass of water and it's just overflowing because it can't stay in that container. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, I'm just, I my. But my parents have always said that they're like, you have always just been just like a dee dee dee, like la la la, you know, and there's a family joke. I was born in Anaheim, which is the headquarters of Disneyland. And so I was born across the street or like in the neighborhood of Disneyland. So maybe it's like a family joke that like maybe that. So maybe that's the answer to your question. I don't know. But I just, I get really mad probably like a couple times a year. Annoyed, sure. Like I'm not superhuman, but like truly mad a couple times a year where I'm like, you know, other than that I have a really good, I think regulation over like my emotions for the most part. Yeah, yeah. I'm just a very like even footed person with a lot of energy though. Yeah. I don't know.

Well, the next time you get really mad, I want to see it. So you did not want to see it? I want to see what it looks like.

Oh, God.

Be interesting. Yeah. Sonia Lakhani, thank you so much for coming on. Really, really appreciate it. Been a lot of fun.

Yes, I truly enjoyed it. Thanks so much and I'm happy to chat with you anytime. This was a blast.

Even when you're mad.

Yeah, I'll call you when I'm mad.