Maximum Lawyer Podcast Summary

Episode: How a Collaborative Approach and Flat Fees Can Change Family Law for the Better
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: John Nachlinger
Date: August 26, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Tyson Mutrux sits down with John Nachlinger—New Jersey-based family law attorney, mediator, and founder of Divorce Shield—to discuss innovative shifts in family law practice. The conversation centers on adopting a more collaborative, healing-focused approach to divorce, the challenges and benefits of flat-fee pricing, practical strategies for client communication, and John’s work coaching men through the divorce process. The two provide candid reflections on the legal industry’s norms, client management, non-attorney sales strategies, and the emotional complexities of family law.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lawyers as Healers, Not Flamethrowers

• Collaboration Over Combat:
  • John emphasizes that lawyers should focus on solving problems, not exacerbating conflict.
  • “It should be much more about finding solutions to families and not making it worse. I think a lot of attorneys make it worse instead of trying to figure out how to make it better.” (John Nachlinger, 01:37)
• Court Aversion:
  • John avoids court where possible, preferring resolution through dialogue—highlighting inefficiencies and delays in the family court system, especially in New Jersey.

2. Financial & Structural Issues in Family Law

• Billable Hour Dilemma:
  • Billing by the hour incentivizes unnecessary work and can cloud client relationships.
  • “I hate the billable hour. If I didn’t have to ever bill by the hour again, I would not.” (John Nachlinger, 07:36)
• Flat Fee Transition:
  • John’s firm is moving toward flat-rate billing for specific services, like mediation and uncontested divorces.
  • Transparent menus for services can intimidate clients, so clear communication on cost/outcome is essential.

3. Managing Client Expectations

• Defining Success Early On:
  • John asks clients to list their three main goals at the outset and revisits these throughout the process to keep focus and manage emotional reactions.
  • “When I have an initial conversation with somebody, I say, what are your three goals? ... throughout the case, I keep coming back to those goals.” (John Nachlinger, 12:41)
• Honesty Over Salesmanship:
  • He sets realistic expectations, refusing to promise unattainable outcomes:
    “I cannot stand attorneys that promise the world to their clients to get them to pay them.” (John Nachlinger, 15:00)

4. Non-Attorney Salespeople in Law Firms

• Separation of Roles:
  • Intake is handled by trained non-attorney sales staff who focus on the client’s desired outcome, not the legal process.
  • “...they’re selling the outcome. ... If you get someone who’s good at doing that, they really ... build a good rapport with a client because they’re talking ... on an emotional basis, not about their case, not about the law.” (John Nachlinger, 16:58)
• Attorney Only Steps In After Retainer:
  • This model allows attorneys to focus on strategy and casework rather than initial sales.
  • For clients who insist on meeting an attorney before signing, paid consultations are offered.

5. Hiring and Training for Client-Facing Roles

• Specialized Skills Needed:
  • Empathy trumps traditional sales experience, especially in emotionally charged areas like family law.
  • “Men don’t have the same ... empathy that women do. ... you need to have a certain level of just empathy.” (John Nachlinger, 23:19)
• Personal Experience as a Differentiator:
  • John’s current top-performing salesperson is a woman who had personally experienced a difficult divorce and resonated deeply with the firm’s mission.

6. Men’s Divorce Coaching & Building a Support Community

• Divorce Shield and Men’s Divorce Network:
  • John coaches men worldwide (except in his local jurisdiction for ethical reasons), helping them prepare emotionally & practically for divorce.
  • Focuses on both pre-divorce and post-divorce well-being:
    • “If you can’t get a guy ... to understand that they’re going to be okay ... they’re going to get focused on the divorce ... having their attorney be their support system. ... they end up paying a lot of money.” (John Nachlinger, 32:31)
• Confidential Support Networks:
  • Runs a private, men-only Facebook group to connect, share advice, and provide mutual support.
  • “It just grew by word of mouth. ... it let me know that there was something that was missing in the world.” (John Nachlinger, 44:07)

7. Working with Clients’ Attorneys as a Coach

• Facilitating Communication:
  • John frequently helps clients formulate productive communications with their attorneys or ex-spouses and acts as an interpreter for complex legal or financial discussions.
• Avoiding Unauthorized Practice of Law:
  • He’s careful to coach, not give legal advice outside his jurisdiction, and positions himself as a supplement, not a replacement, to legal counsel.

8. Gender Focus & Mediation Approach

• Inclusive Practice:
  • John’s law firm serves men and women, emphasizing mediation and family-focused solutions over adversarial litigation.
  • “We focus on helping families and that’s how it’s always going to be.” (John Nachlinger, 45:05)
• Avoiding One-Sided Branding:
  • Fears that marketing solely to men or women may inhibit the collaborative ethos required for successful mediation.

9. Personal Evolution Away from Litigation

• Burnout & Life Changes:
  • John’s shift from high-stakes litigation (a grueling 27-day trial in 2018 was a turning point) to more amicable, solution-oriented work.
  • Tyson relates with his own lengthy trial experience.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the True Barriers to Justice:
  “If you can’t pay an attorney $5,000 or $7,500 or $10,000 to start a case, it shouldn’t be a barrier to you getting help.” (John Nachlinger, 05:48)
• On Client Over-Communication:
  “We specifically set forth how much communication they get with the office. ... Once they exceed the allotment ... they do get billed for additional communications.” (John Nachlinger, 10:09)
• On Emotional Support:
  “Sometimes your client is so emotionally fragile that they don’t hear what's being said. ... they really almost need somebody to interpret what just happened.” (John Nachlinger, 34:53)
• On Finding the Right Hire:
  “She didn’t want a job. She wanted this job. ... She had been through a particularly difficult divorce. ... She was really attracted to that and was ready to sell that to people.” (John Nachlinger, 23:47)
• On Managing Client Demands:
  “I make more money off the cases I don’t take than the ones I do.” (John Nachlinger, paraphrased, 22:15 & Tyson Mutrux, 22:15)

Noteworthy Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |:-------------:|--------------------------------------------------------| | 01:37 | Lawyers as healers, not flamethrowers | | 07:36 | The flat fee vs. billable hour debate | | 12:41 | Setting client goals and sticking to outcomes | | 15:00 | Refusing to promise unrealistic results | | 16:43 | Non-attorney salespeople in the law firm | | 23:47 | Empathy and experience in hiring sales staff | | 32:01 | Men’s Divorce Network and coaching philosophy | | 34:53 | Coaching as emotional interpreter | | 44:07 | Organic growth of men's divorce support community | | 45:05 | Law firm’s inclusive, family-focused approach | | 49:08 | Burnout and John’s transition from litigation |

Final Thoughts

John Nachlinger’s collaborative, client-centered methodology, rooted in honest communication, transparent fees, and outcome-focused legal service, stands as a compelling model for modern family law practice. The episode is packed with actionable advice for law firm owners—whether they’re looking to adopt flat fees, empower staff, or better serve families in crisis. John’s dedication to shifting mindsets, both for clients and attorneys, underscores the profound impact that legal professionals can have not just on case outcomes, but on human lives.

For more insights on optimizing your law practice, scaling your firm, and rethinking client relationships, subscribe to Maximum Lawyer and check out related resources at mensdivorcenetwork.com.