B (3:16)

There's probably three cases too many, right?

A (3:17)

Yeah, exactly right. They were all favors, Quote, unquote, favors.

B (3:20)

Ah, I see.

A (3:21)

Yes.

B (3:21)

So the problem with family law is there's so many different things within family law that are handled. Like there's domestic violence, you know, there's people that have children that aren't married. Then there's, of course, your divorces. And then there's people, people that are already divorced that now need things change. And there's adoption, there's name changes, there's all these things.

A (3:38)

Real estate tax, real estate tax.

B (3:41)

There's all kinds of things have to be handled. So there are people out there that do this all the time, and those are great. But a large percentage of people that show up in family court are what we like to call dabblers. People that only have, you know, one, two or three cases, you know, in. In divorce or the domestic violence or these other things, and they don't really know the law. They don't really know the procedures. They don't know how to resolve things without being a lawy lawyer. And unfortunately, in family law, you have to take your lawyer hat off a little bit and start thinking more in a collaborative way, like, how can I resolve things? Because people are already pissed off they're getting divorced. You know, maybe someone cheated on somebody, and there's all these emotions, but you got to figure out how to get around those emotions, because emotions. What's 95% of a divorce? The law is pretty easy. I mean, it's not hard. And I mean, very seldom does someone have something that really needs to go in front of a judge. It's very rare most of the time. We can get around it. And I will say that most attorneys at least look at themselves in the mirror and believe that. And the problem is, is. Well, we've got two problems. One is financial. I mean, attorneys need to make a living. And I'm never going to say an attorney bills a case just to make money, but we need to make a living. Number two, attorneys are scared to death of malpractice. They're scared to death of not doing enough, you know, not doing enough discovery, not looking for enough information, not asking enough questions. Because later on, if you don't ask all those questions, you don't want your client coming back to you saying, well, how did we not know about that? How did we not know about that? So I think it's those two competing things that really force a lot of attorneys to really go above and beyond what they probably need to do in a given case.

A (5:18)

Yeah. Do you bill by the hour, Flat rate. What do you do?

B (5:21)

So my firm is transitioning to all flat rates. And we're. I say transitioning because it's hard to just do all flat rates. It's a transitional period. So we've started doing divorces. Flat fee divorces. There's certain categories that would qualify, but like, we do a mediation flat fee, where we act as mediators but actually write the agreement, get them divorced. We do some where they already know what they want, and we give them, like, a little worksheet to, like, figure, tell us what it is.

A (5:47)

It's kind of nice.

B (5:48)

Yeah. And then. And then we've got, like, basic where no one has anything. And so we have all of those sorts of things. And then we still bill by the hour as well. But even there, we try to do payment arrangements and try to. My. My whole goal is that it shouldn't be a barrier. And if you can't pay an attorney 5,000 or 7,500 or $10,000 to start a case, it shouldn't be a barrier to you getting help. So we try to figure out a way to help people within the confines of actually having a business, which is. Those are the two competing things. You know, I have to be able to pay my staff, pay my paralegals, pay everybody while helping people. So it's that. It's that dichotomy that's always, you know, when you're an owner of a law firm, it's really hard because, you know, people always want to give favors. They Always want to let me do a favor for this person, do a favor for that person. Let's do a low bono case here, let's do pro bono here. And I love all of that. But at some point we also have to make enough money to pay our staff and to. Because they all depend on us as well.

A (6:41)

Yeah. Well, the reason why I ask is because you mentioned you don't think attorneys, they just build just to make money. There is a firm, I won't mention their name. And I actually think from a business standpoint, if I'm. We're just talking purely business, it's a brilliant model. They bill hourly and they have all these different things that they, that must be done on a file, their associates must do on the file. The reason why I think it's brilliant is that again, from a business standpoint, purely business, from like making money is what I'm talking about is you can't then go back and look and say, well, they did all these things for me. They did a terrible job. Now they did all these things for you. So it. For the, the file looks like they've done an amazing job because they've done all these things. Maybe not all of them were necessary, but they did all these things to help, you know, at least help with the case. And they're able to bill all that towards the retainer and everything. And I wonder if part of the, the problem is the billable hour. If, if your, what are your thoughts are on that?

B (7:36)

I think it's a huge part of the problem. I mean, I hate the billable hour. If I didn't have to ever bill by the hour again, I would not. It's the one thing that drives me absolutely insane. You know, I like to. I'm one of those people that does my entire day and then I go back and bill because I just can't. I don't like the whole idea of. I just got off the phone. Let me go put in my entry real quick. I really don't like that. But it is the problem. And a lot of clients, they don't care how they get divorced. They don't care how the sausage is made, which is another problem. Attorneys love to talk about how the sausage is made. Yeah, they want the outcome. They want the outcome and they want to know what is it going to cost me to get this outcome. And so that's why the flat fee model is a more appropriate model in a lot of cases. Obviously, there's things we don't know. We don't know how the spouse is going to react. We don't know how their attorneys can behave. But in terms of a hourly rate, everyone gets bogged down on how much the hourly rate is or isn't and all of this stuff. When really, at the end of the day, we just need to figure out how to get our clients from point A to point B. And yes, right now we have to bill by the hour on cases that are truly, you know, kind of. We don't have a clue what's going to happen, so we have to do that. But if I could get away from it completely and figure out, like, this way, this magical way. And I've thought of things. I mean, we thought about flat fee, like parts of cases, like flat fee and, like, filing a complaint, flat fee, going to court, you know, doing sort of flat fees along the way. But clients, we've found out that scares them even more if they see a whole, like, menu of. Here are all the expenses that you might incur that scares them even more than just the. Well, the average divorce in New Jersey is about 15 to $16,000. A lot of times they just feel comfortable with that. And that's a billable, like, traditional contested case. Yeah, they feel more comfortable with that than giving me a menu of things because we've tried it and it scared them. They're like, well, what if I have to do all these things because they take out their calculator and start adding them all up and they're like, right, yeah, crap, it's going to cost this much. I'm like, no, you're not going to do all of these things. But. So I don't know how to get away from the hourly model entirely as long as there's other attorneys out there doing it, because they're. If they're doing it, it puts pressure on us as well. Because, you know, if. If I get a stack of discovery from my adversary, my clients can be like, well, if I have to answer it, they have to answer it too.

A (9:48)

Sure.

B (9:49)

So now all of a sudden, we've started this back and forth. That's not productive for anybody.

A (9:52)

That's an interesting thing about family laws that, that you have to do that whenever you request it. You have to. I think that applies in a lot of states. I don't know if every state, but it does a lot of states. How do you navigate the situations, though, with, like, a flat fee where it's like, just a client that is sucking up all your time? How do you deal with those situations?

B (10:09)

So we, we specifically set forth like how much communication they get with the office. Exactly what we're going to do. The scope of service is very specific. And once they exceed the allotment that they have for communication, they do get billed for additional communications.

A (10:26)

And I like that. That's good.

B (10:27)

And, and that, but that keeps everyone in check. I mean, probably in a given month we have one client that exceeds their, their communication because they know, okay, I have two hours of communication with my attorney, which is a lot. Two hours. And we, I mean, we're, I mean.

A (10:41)

They, they don't always think that, but.

B (10:43)

They, they don't always think that. And that's in addition to like an initial strategy session. It's in addition to getting revisions to their agreement. Those things are all separate. It's like above and beyond. It's like those little like nagging questions that the clients like to ask. They wake up in the morning and they have this, you know, this question that has nothing to do really with anything, but they want to talk to somebody. So we've done that. But the clients love it. The clients that have gone through the flat fee are so happy because they've talked to all their friends that haven't and they know, they know that they got a good deal and they got divorced and now their spouse and them aren't killing each other. Their kids are happier, everything is a better situation and they saved a lot of money.

A (11:22)

Yeah, they know what the, what the cap is. Unless they over communicate.

B (11:25)

Right.

A (11:26)

You had mentioned, attorneys care too much about what, like how, talking about how the sausage is made. I, I think I might slightly disagree, but. So I'm going to ask you more about that because don't you find value from like just a marketing standpoint of demonstrating the value that you've added?

B (11:42)

Well, certainly if you're billing by the hour, you have to, because you have to justify your bill. But if you're doing outcome based billing, like flat fee billing, you don't need to do that because they're paying for the result. The result is I'm going to be divorced, I'm going to have an agreement, and it's going to be done in this period of time. But if you're billing by the hour, of course you have to justify everything you do. You know, every phone call, what was it about? Every email, what, what was it about? Why'd you talk to the adversary? Why'd you send that letter? Why did you do this? Why'd you do that? So when I say don't talk about how the sausage is made, I'M talking like at the beginning of the case, attorneys like to sit down with clients and be like, oh, first we're going to file a complaint and then we're going to go to court and do this, and then we're going to do that, and then we're going to do this. And they don't understand. Clients don't care about those things at the beginning. I mean, as they're getting billed, of course they want to know what's going on in their case, but at the beginning, they don't care about that. They want to know, what are you going to do for me? How are you going to help me? And that's where I think a lot of attorneys lose clients.

A (12:33)

Sure.

B (12:34)

Because clients leave and they don't have that feeling of this person doesn't want to help me. All they talked about are all these things that are going to cost me money.

A (12:41)

Yeah.

B (12:41)

You know, and I know it's going to cost me money. I know it's going to be expensive. Divorce isn't cheap. But start talking to our clients about the outcome. Like, what are we trying to achieve for them? Like, when I have an initial conversation with somebody, I say, what are your three goals? What are they? They can be anything from I, you know, I want to lose weight to I want custody of my kids, whatever it is, what are your three goals? And then I write them down and I share that with them in an email that here are the three goals we identify. And throughout the case, I keep coming back to those goals. When we get off the beaten path because their spouse did something stupid, I come back and say, well, listen, your goal was to get this thing. Okay, if we get this thing, can you ignore this other thing that's going on? And I just keep them focused because divorce is one of those things that, like, it's sip for tat. Someone does one thing, someone does something else, and then someone does one thing and someone does something else and they can it. And that's why divorces can cost 50, 60, 70, $100,000. So I just, you have to keep your client focused and unemotional as much as possible. On what are you here for? Like, what's important for you.

A (13:46)

I love that for a lot of reasons because you can, like to start like, you can identify any red flags or like, like, like you headed off right at the beginning. I can't do that for you. Kind of a scenario or you can, you can make sure that you're on track with, with everything that, that they're wanting you could also, at the end, say, you, you told me at the beginning that you wanted these three things and you got these three things. And I think that that's. I think that's. How do you deal with situations where they're. They say they give you something on their list of goals that just. It's unreasonable or just unattainable.

B (14:21)

I tell them right up at front, yeah, I understand. You want. Well, I, I'll use custody because a lot of times that's something that comes up. I want sole custody of my kids. I don't want my spouse to be able to make any decisions or anything. I'll say, okay, I'll ask them why first. Why is that your goal? And usually it's some stupid reason, like, you know, he's an or, right? You know, he cheated on me or something like that. If they say something more legitimate, like, oh, he's got a drinking problem or he's got a drug problem or something, okay, then I'll go into it a little bit more and we'll talk. But if it's something really just dumb, I don't beat around the bush. I. I cannot stand attorneys that promise the world to their clients to get them to pay them.

A (15:00)

It's the worst.

B (15:01)

But a lot of divorce attorneys do injure lawyers, too.

A (15:04)

Yeah.

B (15:04)

Yeah. Why? It's. It's. It's like, it's really bad. And so I, from my perspective, I don't want to have to be looking at my client six months from now saying, like, well, I know I told you that, but, you know, and give them all the reasons why now we're not going to get it. When I knew at the very beginning they weren't going to get what they were asking for. So I try to adjust their goal. I say, okay, if we can't get that, what would be the next best result or next most acceptable result for you? And I try to, like, get them to adjust their own goal to something that's more attainable. It may still be a stretch, and I'll tell them that. I'm like, okay, listen, we'll try to get that. We'll get as close to that as possible. But, you know, you want to pay a thousand dollars a month in alimony. We'll try to get as close as possible, but if we get to, like, you know, 1050 or 9 50, that's considered close. Do you understand that? You know, we may not get exactly what you want, but it's going to be close. Do you understand that? And, you know, as long as they can understand. And we can have that communication at the very beginning. I'm fine with that. I just don't lie to my clients.

A (16:06)

Yeah.

B (16:06)

And the ones that want to be lied to, well, they can go somewhere where they'll be lied to.

A (16:11)

Yeah, I, I like, I like how, how big you are on, on setting those expectations up, up front. Because yeah, the, the whole idea of these lawyers overselling at the beginning, like I understand the desire to sell your firm, but like when you over promise you just, you're setting yourself up for failure at the end. It just makes no sense.

B (16:30)

It absolutely doesn't. And I'll take one step further. In my firm, when you call our office, you talk to a non attorney salesperson anyway. So we don't. Like the attorney doesn't even have any contact with you until you've signed a retainer and paid.

A (16:43)

Right.

B (16:43)

So. Which I wish more attorneys would come around to this because still to this day, when I tell people I have this model, they look at me like I have five heads. And like, how can you have a non attorney sell? But they're selling the outcome. Like, what can the firm do for you?

A (16:58)

Sure.

B (16:58)

They're not selling how the sausage is made. They're not selling the process, they're selling the outcome. And if you get someone who's good at doing that, they really. And they build a good rapport with a client because they're talking to a client on an emotional basis, not about their case, not about the law. When they come in to see the attorney finally and we have our strategy session, you know, the client's already has a good warm feeling about these people can help me. And they hear everything the attorney is saying in a much different way.

A (17:26)

Sure.

B (17:27)

They're like, okay, I already trust these people. So if they're telling me that I can't get this, okay, that's fine.

A (17:34)

I'm so glad you brought this up because I hear all the time, all the time with Maximum Lawyer, you have a lot of people where they'll listen. And we talk about our hiring process. We don't have an attorney involved in our hiring process. But the excuse I always get is, well, you're not taking money up front. You just need a signature you don't need. And there's many other firms at Maximum Lawyer that, that do the same thing you do where they, they sign people up lots of times over the phone. No. No attorneys involved. So I guess what advice would you give to attorneys that are skeptical that think either they personally need to be the One that sells or that they need to have an attorney that's on that intake team that's got to get the, get the job done.

B (18:14)

Well, if you own a firm and that's you, I would say this is the part where you really have a job and not a business. Because if you have a business you have to start looking at things from a non attorney point of view. And the people that feel like they have to be involved every step of the way are the ones that are probably the same people who can't delegate work to anyone else anyway. It's like I, I have to do everything. It's all me. The people are coming here for me. Okay, fine. If someone comes for you, then why do they need to talk to you to sign up? They're coming because they some trusted person or someone out in the world said this person's great. So you don't need to have your hands in everything. And quite frankly that's time. If you own a firm, that's time you should be using to build your business and work on your business and think of other things to do. Work on your marketing so you get the right people in the door to begin with. But I really feel like you just need to talk to someone who has the model.

A (19:11)

Yeah.

B (19:12)

Because there's more and more people that do. I know it started I know a lot of like immigration firms and people like that that do it. Which I think people think that makes a little bit more sense. Family law. You seem, it's like a little bit more complicated. People think to do it, but not really because you're talking about people in the most emotional like emotionally like damaged person they probably have ever been and they're coming in and they just want someone to hear them and that doesn't have to be an attorney. And quite frankly if you are an attorney doing those, a lot of attorneys do them for free. Which even drives me even crazier. Like we actually have a policy. Like if someone wants to talk to an attorney, we just do a paid consultation.

A (19:50)

Oh, interesting.

B (19:51)

And we just say fine, you really want to talk to an attorney because you know you need to know before I sign, I need to know what my Alamo is going to be or whatever else they want to know. We just do a paid 30 or 60 minute consultation and they pay it, they talk to the attorney and then our non attorney salesperson follows up and then usually signs them up after that consultation. So if someone really needs to talk to an attorney, we'll do it. Yeah, but I would say That's a very small percentage of the people that sign up with us. Maybe 20% or less.

A (20:19)

I am very curious and you may not know the numbers but it's off the top of your head what, what your hunch is. I wonder if, where do the worst clients come from? The ones that sign up through the non attorney salesperson or the ones that insist on talking to an attorney before they sign up?

B (20:36)

I don't know if I know the answer to that.

A (20:37)

I would love to know the answer.

B (20:38)

Yeah, I never even thought about it. I would say are the clients that are the, let's say not a clients that we have are typically the people we get from cold Google Ads anyway.

A (20:50)

Sure.

B (20:50)

So a lot of them are hot to trot. So a lot of them will just sign up immediately because they need someone because they just were served with a restraining order or you know, they just got a complaint in the. We're served with a complaint. So a lot of them, the ones I, So now that I'm thinking about, the ones that actually have consultations sometimes are a little bit more. They're thinking about things a little bit more and they just want to give it a little bit more thought. Which. There's nothing wrong with that.

A (21:13)

No, not at all.

B (21:14)

It drives me crazy. I'm, I'm in a lot, I'm in a lot of masterminds and things and every time I have like a, like a call with somebody and it's like hot to trot, like you know, give me your credit card right now. I'm like, okay, I'm going to ask questions first and I need to know more and then we'll do it. I mean so I, I look at it from my, I try to look at everything from my perspective too. Like, like are you just, is everyone just ready to give someone, you know, a credit card for $5,000 over the phone? Not everyone is. Some people, some people are like listen, I did my research, I'm ready to go.

A (21:45)

Sure.

B (21:45)

Other people are like, I let me think about this a little bit. And so I don't begrud someone that wants the consultation. Now there are people out there that the consultations so that they can hear what they want to hear.

A (21:55)

Right.

B (21:56)

And a lot of times those people don't even sign up. And those are the ones everyone in my office gets. My attorneys get upset. My non attorney salesperson gets upset and I'm like, listen, you make more money with the people we don't bring in than the ones we do 100. So I'm like, if they didn't hear what they wanted to hear, and we're never going to be able to make them happy, what do you think is going to happen down the road?

A (22:15)

Yeah. You know, so a guy used to rent office space from a great personal injury attorney in St. Louis. He used to always say that you make more money off the case, you don't take the ones you take. Same thing you just said. I've never heard anybody else say it. I think it's great. I love hearing you say it. I want to know, when it comes to hiring for that position, the non attorney salesperson, what are you looking for in that position? Because it's. I mean, you just can't pull any person off the street to do it.

B (22:40)

You can't. I'm on my sixth one right now.

A (22:42)

Okay.

B (22:43)

So it's taken a while to find the perfect person.

A (22:46)

Right? Yeah.

B (22:46)

And I have. I have her now.

A (22:48)

Oh, nice. So before her, she doesn't hear for the. Here, here.

B (22:50)

Oh, she'll be happy.

A (22:52)

She might want more money.

B (22:53)

And everyone before her, actually, everyone before her was a man. Like, I had men before her, and I was looking for someone who was selling something, particularly something that had some level of value, like just someone who's been used to selling a product.

A (23:06)

Okay.

B (23:07)

So that's kind of who I was looking for beforehand. And then I put them into sales training. You know, I have a sales coach that I have helped train these people. And they've all did fine.

A (23:19)

Sure.

B (23:19)

You know, they all did fine. But I realized men don't have the same. Not, not all. Some men do, but a lot of men don't have the same empathy that women do.

A (23:28)

Yeah.

B (23:28)

And on these initial calls, no matter who it is calling there, you need to have a certain level of just empathy.

A (23:34)

You draw the connection.

B (23:35)

Yeah, you need to have a little bit more of a connection. So I finally. The person that I found was not someone had any sales training whatsoever, but she had been through a divorce. She'd been through a particularly difficult divorce.

A (23:46)

She can really relate.

B (23:47)

Yeah. And she, you know, has children and she was really. She didn't want a job. She wanted this job. When I talked to her, she was very much like, had read about what we were doing as a firm, these flat fees and trying to change the way that people get divorced. She was really attracted to that and was ready to sell that to people because she's in. She was in all kinds of other, like divorce support groups and everything. And she was like, oh, my gosh, people need this. They need to like, see there's a better way. So when I heard all that, I was like, okay, well she doesn't have any sales background. Okay, let me just get her the training and see if it works. So we trained her and she has been outstanding because she had something that the other people just didn't have. I was looking for the sales, but I kind of just completely forgot that someone who has some first level experience and can tell people, maybe not like, oh, let me tell you what happened to me, but at least hear what they're saying and understand what they're saying and respond to them in a way that only someone who can understand what they're saying would respond. Combined with the receptiveness to being taught how to do sales, because that is, that's another skill set. It's hard. I've been through the, I've been through the sales training and let me tell you, when I do, on the rare occasion I'll do a consultation just because it's a, it's a, a friend. It's like someone really important that refers someone to me and I'm just like, I have to do this consultation.

A (25:08)

Sure.

B (25:09)

Even I, I get into my attorney ness too much, I lose track of, you know, sort of the sales script. And the sales script is not anything bad. It's just, you know, you want to keep people on track 100%. Get the only the information that you need so that you can explain to them how we can help them or whether we can help them. So really you need, I think anyone, especially in divorce and family law, you gotta find somebody who just understands what people are going through and is receptive to learning how to do sales. So if you can find someone with those two skills, I think you've got someone that you could probably will do a really good job.

A (25:43)

Yeah. Can you think of the name of the training, the sales training? Cause I think people would love to hear what that is.

B (25:48)

Yeah, it's S3.

A (25:49)

S3?

B (25:50)

Yeah.

A (25:50)

How'd you learn about that?

B (25:51)

Trying to think where. Right. I was in, I was in a coaching program for a long time where I, I learned about a lot of these things will not be named and, and nothing bad to say. It's just don't need any advertisements. So I learned about S3 and it's really good. It's like a. It's just a very systematic, specific way of selling. And what's great, I. What I really love about it is they have like weekly dojos where like she get, she gets on for an hour and she just practices parts of the sales conversation with another student so that they can practice outside. And I love that. And they get feedback from instructors, but I just really. And she doesn't follow it to a T. And I told her she doesn't have to. It's just a good foundation. And just. You need to always. It's like a skill set. Any skill set. You got to keep working on it. Keep working on it. You get better and better and better.

A (26:41)

So does she. Is that something you all do? You have, like, regular training scheduled for her, so she's better. That's awesome.

B (26:47)

But I have someone who knows what they're doing. Training. Yeah, not me. And that's nothing. Attorneys. We all think we know everything. I don't know anything about sales, so I have someone else do it. Just like, I don't know anything about really much. About marketing.

A (26:57)

Yeah.

B (26:57)

So I have someone else do all of that, too. So you have to, you know, hire the right people so that. Or at least get the right coaches and people that can help you.

A (27:04)

I love that. That's really good. I'm going to shift gears. And you have something called. Make sure I got the name. Is it Divorce Playbook? Is that what. Is that what it's called? And what. What is the Divorce Playbook? I want to make sure I've got that. Is that what it's called?

B (27:16)

Well, I mean, we have a Divorce playbook is just something we give people that helps them understand mediation. But you might be referring to divorce shield, perhaps. So this. So I also do, like, a men's.

A (27:28)

Divorce coaching, because I want to get into that, too.

B (27:31)

So.

A (27:31)

Okay, so let's talk about that then we. We can get back to the divorce Playbook if it comes up. But. Yeah, talk about that.

B (27:36)

Yeah. So during COVID I just sort of wanted a different way to help people. And I just. I've been talking to all of my male clients, and they've all. They've all had very similar issues.

A (27:46)

Yeah.

B (27:47)

Really struggling with the emotion of going through this and not having people to talk to. You know, us as men were really bad at talking to other guys.

A (27:53)

Bottle.

B (27:54)

Yeah, we don't want to. And there's a lot of guys that live in, like, rural America, like in small towns where everyone knows everybody. They don't want to talk to anyone about what's going on. So I decided to form. Basically form a group online of guys that can just join and talk to each other. And then stemming from that, I was like, listen, as an attorney, I know what they need to do to prepare for divorce. Like, if they have time to prepare, I know what they need to do. Like, for example, they need to learn their kids friends names. They need to know who their kids teachers are, who the principal is, who the. Who the pediatrician is, who their friends parents, who their friends parents are. They need to learn, like, just. I'm just giving you an example, some basic information that they need to learn that if they don't know it, it's not like they're not going to get custody, but it's going to make it more difficult whenever, you know, whenever their wife says, oh, he doesn't even know who, you know, little John's friends are. Yeah, I do. It's this person. This person. Like, it's just little things that as guys, particularly if you're like, have a. You're working hard and everything, maybe you just don't know. So I just. I came up with like, a process where a program where people can sort of put all these pieces together. Everything from learning information, organizing finances, to protecting yourself against bogus domestic violence claims.

A (29:06)

Yeah.

B (29:07)

Which another big thing. And then actually start looking towards the future because I. I feel like the people that have the worst divorces are the ones that are so caught up in the moment, they're so caught up in what's going on that they can't even see that light at the end of the tunnel. They don't even think about it. And those are the same guys. Women do this too. Same guys who, you know, drink too much, they get out of shape. They're. They sit around and mope around all the time. And then it makes it harder for them to even agree to something in the divorce, even something reasonable, because they're just so distraught about what's going through. So I formed this, and then I sort of became a divorce, a men's divorce. Strategist. I don't like the word coach. So Mr. Or strategist.

A (29:48)

Well, I was gonna use the word coach, so strategist. I like that. Yeah.

B (29:51)

I don't like coach because, I mean, I mean, although men do respond to coach, they understand. I'm like. I explain it to guys all the time. I'm like. I'm just like a basketball coach. I'm on the side. We drop the play. I send you out on the court. Doesn't work. Come back over, we'll drop another play. But I really concentrate on the strategy of it. Like, how can. How can I help guys, prepare to go into the divorce process and then to tie it back to what I do in my law firm. I help them understand the benefits of going through like a mediation process and in amicable process. And then I try to teach them how to talk to their spouse about it. Their spouse who they hate or they're distraught about or my favorite, she told me she wanted divorce and I had no idea this was coming. Which is, I mean, you'll believe that. No, I've never believed it one, one time. And every guy that I've ever worked with knows that I think that that line is just a bunch of nonsense. It's just you didn't, you weren't paying any attention.

A (30:41)

I like your focus on the after too. So you're, you're prepping them for it, but also the after. We had someone on the show recently and the name of her firm is Happy Ever after, which I think is a. It's a great name. Really is good. So you, but you do the strategy and do you. Can you do this with anyone across the country because of the way you have it set up?

B (31:02)

Yeah, so I work with, I work with any guy actually, anywhere in the world. I've had guys in other countries.

A (31:07)

Oh, incredible.

B (31:07)

But, but I won't do. I won't work with anyone in New Jersey because I just, I, I just feel like, because I practice law in New Jersey, I, I don't want any unintentional conflicts or anything that might arise.

A (31:18)

Okay.

B (31:19)

So. But I have other people in New Jersey I'll refer someone to because if they're, if, if someone in New Jersey wants my help, I'll. I'll just say, listen, we'll. We'll do some of the, the strategy and, and coaching and all of that as part of you being a client of the law firm. So that's sort of what I, it's just easier to do it that way because it's too complicated, you know, doing both sides. But yeah, I work with anyone. You know, I try to. I try to only work with about 20 guys at a time. Just because.

A (31:45)

So you really. Okay. I, I thought it was more like a bigger thing. So it's your.

B (31:49)

Well, no. Why one on one work with 20 guys? Yeah, so I have an online course too, that guys, the guys do. It's basically just, you know, it's like four modules that they can like sort of figure out.

A (31:59)

How do people plug it? How do people find that if they want to.

B (32:01)

So mensdivorcenetwork.com. okay, that's all the information about the, the programs and, you know, the, the coaching program. With me is very much a application process because I, I'm really big on. I only want to work with people I can help. And sometimes it's very obvious that it's somebody that I, they need more like a mental health professional and not a coach. And there is, there's a difference between the two and there's a situation where someone would need one and not the other. Sometimes people need both.

A (32:30)

Sure.

B (32:31)

But yeah, I try to keep, I like to, I mean, most guys I talk to once a week, you know, and I'm, and I run a law firm, so it's kind of like I, I'm spread too thin everywhere, all the time. But this is what I love. I love talking to these guys. I love trying to help them untangle, you know, how, how am I going to be okay? Because I mean, I've been divorced too. I'm a divorce attorney. I've been divorced. So I, you know, I try to come at it from that perspective. I'm also a father, so you know that too. Most guys are scared of the same things. Am I going to lose all my money and am I going to lose my kids? Yeah, I mean, almost every guy's scared of those two things. So you, you know, I, so it's easy to come to a place where you can just sort of talk to them about those issues because if you don't resolve them, if you can't get a guy to sort or a girl or a woman to understand that they're going to be okay, that they're going to be able to get through this, that they need to concentrate on something bigger than the divorce. If you can't get them there, they're going to get focused on the divorce. They're going to get focused on the day to day. They're going to get focused on having their attorney be their support system. And that as an attorney is what I really don't like because they end up paying for it and they end up paying a lot of money because we can't just like not, not bill somebody to sit on the phone with them, you know, two or three hours a week. We have to. Because we can't work on other, we can't work on other people's cases.

A (33:53)

That's a great segue because I want to ask you about that. So whenever you, you have a situation where you are doing the strategy, but you also have the strategy, such coaching, maybe they already have a lawyer or maybe they do need a mental health professional. How do you deal with those situations? And do you Find that the attorneys are open to this, or do you find that they. They're opposed?

B (34:15)

Some are. Some are open, some are not.

A (34:17)

Do you ever get nasty emails?

B (34:18)

I do. I do. And I get. I've had. I've had many clients in the past that have wanted me on calls with their attorneys.

A (34:25)

What do you do for that?

B (34:26)

Or I. I'll. I'll do it if they want me to.

A (34:28)

Okay.

B (34:29)

I mean, they understand that there's, you know, there's a. There's a privilege issue with that. But as long as they understand I've sit in meetings with experts and clients, like people that some people are. So, see, this is what attorneys don't always understand. Sometimes your client is so emotionally fragile that they don't hear what's being said. They don't hear it. They really almost need somebody to interpret what just happened.

A (34:52)

Okay.

B (34:53)

And attorneys are really, you know, it's the whole thing. If you say something to somebody and go, do you understand what I just said? It's human nature always to say yes. But a lot of times attorney clients don't understand what just happened. You know, if they're sitting in a meeting with an accountant, an accountant saying all these things, the attorney's asking all these questions, and they're like, do you have any questions? I mean, sometimes people don't even understand what just happened. So I'll send in some of those meetings. It's not my preference to do it, but I'll do it so that I can help them sort of unpack what just happened and I can explain it to them in a different way. Um, I also help guys find attorneys. That's another thing that I've been doing. I've been toying with sort of a course in terms of how to look for an attorney, because most people just go and they look. What were the things people look for? Who told me this person was great because they, you know, they got this great result for somebody else or who's the cheapest. I mean, it's like people. People shop for attorneys the same way they shop for just about everything else.

A (35:47)

This is crazy.

B (35:48)

It is. And so I try to help them understand, like, what to look for. Like, don't look for someone who dabbles. Look for someone who does this primarily. If divorce and family law isn't like, the major thing on their website, probably not the right person for you. So. Yeah, but most attorneys are open. They understand that we're there to help, not to hurt them or to make things more difficult for them. And I don't second guess an attorney, you know, ever.

A (36:11)

What I love about it is. And you were. When you were talking about, I. I started to think about all the adjacent areas where you could. You could branch this out into and make it so much bigger if you really wanted to. And I know that you're not motivated by this, but you could, I mean, you could build like an empire around it if you really wanted to, where you. You have the mental health side of things you could do, pay for leads kind of a thing. There's so many things you could do with it. I think it's kind of interesting. But I want to shift over to something else, though, when it comes to how do you avoid dabbling in. Let's say you find someone in Missouri that you're. That you're strategizing with, and how do you prevent yourself from getting into, you know, practicing law or giving legal advice?

B (36:55)

So what will happen often is I will get like a. A letter or a proposed agreement that my coaching client attorney has prepared. My coach account will say, will you look at this with me? And so what I'll usually do is just. I'll post questions to them to ask to their attorney without flat out saying, what the hell did this attorney?

A (37:17)

Sure. Yeah.

B (37:18)

Like, I don't. Like, I never do that. I just sort of like, pose the question. Like, maybe ask why it was worded this way and maybe like, what is it that you want to do? Oh, you want to do this? Well, maybe see if. Maybe see if there's a different way to get there. Just make sure the attorney understands what you want so that we can get to the right language. I try not to cross the line. There have been a couple occasions where I have just emailed an attorney directly at my client's permission, but not copy my client.

A (37:43)

Sure.

B (37:43)

And just been like, listen, I saw what just. I saw this thing in the agreement. You know, do you understand that your client is. Actually wants this? You know, I don't know if he was clear. He may not have been clear. I try to be very diplomatic about it.

A (37:57)

Yeah.

B (37:57)

And most of the attorneys are happy with that. I've only had one attorney ever that got upset that I was involved. And then what interestingly happened is my coaching client fired that attorney because it was like, okay, well, if you're not going to work with my coach, then I'm gonna go somewhere else. But I don't. I'm there to be a supplement and to help.

A (38:13)

Yeah.

B (38:14)

Not. Not to be a hindrance. But being an attorney is helpful because I. I see things. I mean, I don't like the way. I mean, it's like any attorney, you see what someone else wrote, and you're like, oh, my God. And it's hard not to want to rewrite it if you're reviewing it.

A (38:28)

Sure.

B (38:28)

But sometimes you just have to say, okay, does it accomplish the goal? Fine. So even though it was worded like, you know, a ninth grader wrote it and it's grammatically insane, it does what it needs to do. So it's okay.

A (38:42)

I like about it, and I am very curious how receptive other attorneys are whenever they listen to this. To it. But I'm kind of envisioning the times where it's kind of a difficult client where I'd love to have you as a buffer. You know, I mean, like, having that buffer. I do see how it could be a lot cheaper for the client if you're billing on an hourly basis, because. Unless they're paying you early. But I guess. How do they pay you?

B (39:06)

So it's usually like a program.

A (39:08)

Okay.

B (39:09)

Of a certain number of weeks, and they. I mean, I do unlimited, like, email communication with them.

A (39:15)

Yeah. So in a situation like that, I mean, that's. It's cheaper for them. They're not paying the attorney by the hour. It's something where you can help filter a lot of those communications. And so you can receive 10 emails instead of the attorney getting 10 emails, and you're. That filter where. It could be a massive advantage to an attorney. It's almost. You could sell it almost like, as a concierge service in a way. I know that's not what it is, but you kind of. In a way, it could be. It could be a really. I mean, that could be a massive benefit. I wonder why there aren't more of these that have popped up. Unless maybe there are, but.

B (39:47)

Well, there's not a lot of divorce coaches out in the world that are attorneys. I mean, most divorce coaches, you know, anyone can call themselves a coach.

A (39:55)

Sure.

B (39:55)

It's like just plop.

A (39:56)

So there are divorce coaches. There's lots of. There's.

B (39:58)

There's a lot of divorce coaches out there, but a lot of. But a lot of them don't really understand divorce.

A (40:03)

Yeah.

B (40:04)

So a lot of them became divorce coach because they had a bad divorce themselves or they went and got some accreditation from. I don't know. I don't know who's accredited to. To do this sort of thing, but whatever. And so they don't really have the full background of, like, every step of of a divorce. And you know, everything that's happened, like I've been a divorce attorney for 22 years. Yeah, I've done, I, I think around 1800 divorces, something like that.

A (40:30)

A lot of divorces.

B (40:31)

Yeah. So I, I mean, at this point, I mean, I've seen everything, I've done everything. So when I coach people, I, it's with that background. So there's a lot of people out there that don't have the background. And so I think attorneys would be a little bit more skeptical of someone who maybe they don't think knows what's going on as much sort of being in this role. But you know, when they're talking to someone who is an attorney but not acting as an attorney, at least then like I've, I've had attorneys help me convince our mutual client of something. And a lot of times I agree with the attorney that they need to be convinced of something. And so there are times it's a good supplement. But you're right, I mean, like, here's the thing. I do more often than not, I just got this email from my wife. This is in the middle of divorce. Just got this email from my wife. Can you look at my, my response and tell me if it's okay? I get that probably five or six times a week. And that is one of the. Or I get text message, same thing. Here's a text message. How should I respond? So that is something that attorneys just don't do.

A (41:31)

Right?

B (41:31)

I just don't do that because they always see the aftermath. They always see after the emails was sent and then, oh, look what your clients, you know, so I do that a lot and I help them rewrite things and the goal isn't not to like hold their hand, but the goal is to help them learn how to communicate, learn how to put things through. And I love AI now because now I can like tell them, take what you just wrote, dump it into Claude or chatgpt or Grok or whatever you want to use and say, can you rewrite this in this particular tone or that particular tone? I mean, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to help guys understand that, you know, use all these tools. You know, you may be pissed off, but I can make you seem less pissed off. So let's make you less pissed off. Which will probably upset your wife even more that you're unemotional, but that's better for you in the long run.

A (42:19)

I like that a lot. Do you have some sort of community somewhere where the, the guys that are in this group can all talk to each other and be a support group. How does that work?

B (42:28)

Yeah. So right now it's a. It's a Facebook group.

A (42:31)

Yeah.

B (42:31)

I had it on an offsite place, but I asked them all, and they were like, no, let's. Let's put it back on Facebook. Particularly. Most of the guys that are in. That are. That I work with are in the age group where Facebook's still.

A (42:43)

Right.

B (42:43)

Still in both.

A (42:44)

It's still the. It's still the best place for groups to meet it, really.

B (42:47)

Yeah.

A (42:47)

With all the features. It really is.

B (42:49)

It is. Yeah. So we, you know, we have a strict, you know, no women policy in there. I. Women try to join it all the time.

A (42:56)

Yeah.

B (42:56)

Like, all the time. Probably several times a day.

A (42:59)

Why do you think that is?

B (43:00)

They just want to. I. I don't know if they just. They want to be. They want to hear what's going on.

A (43:05)

Yeah.

B (43:05)

I mean, it's interesting. So I have a podcast, Get Divorced Without Getting Screwed, and it's a podcast for men, but traditionally, about 30 to 40% of our audience has been women.

A (43:14)

Yeah.

B (43:15)

And it's like, they just. I think they just want to hear what we're all talking about. Like, what. What's going on. Which is interesting because the things we talk about are the same things they're talking about. It's all the same thing. It's just how. This is the whole thing. You have to. How do you talk to a man is a little bit different than how you talk to a woman, you know, like, from an emotion perspective. From, like, a. What. What's important to them perspective. It's just different. And so, you know, when you go back to coaching, a lot of coach. There's a lot of coaches out there, Vast majority of them are women. And there's just. It's just one of the. I mean, I would. I. I don't know. I don't know this statistic for sure, but just knowing, because I've been out in the community a lot, I'd say it's probably 70 to 80% are women. And because of that, most men, they might have a female divorce attorney, but when it comes to someone, they're going to talk about, you know, how they're feeling about things, they might not want to do that to a woman.

A (44:06)

Yeah.

B (44:07)

So. So I kind of. There's. There's a lot of reasons out there why this group is probably doing very well, because I. I haven't really. It's funny, for years, I didn't do any kind of advertising. I didn't do anything. It grew by word of mouth. It just grew very organically. And that let me know that there was something that was missing in the world, that people needed this community. And now, like, I stay in this group for, you know, post divorce and they'll talk about, you know, what's going on, what happened at this holiday, what happened at that holiday. You know, my ex wife just did this. What do you guys think I should do? And I chime in every once in a while, but they, it's like they just all are talking to each other now and it's, it's a thing of beauty and I love it.

A (44:48)

That's pretty cool. When it comes to. So you've got the group that focused on men. Does the firm focus on men as well?

B (44:53)

No, we just focus on, we focus on everybody.

A (44:56)

Have you ever thought about making that shift?

B (44:58)

No, no, because I, because I, first of all, I really like to focus on mediation. So obviously I need two people anyway.

A (45:05)

Sure.

B (45:06)

And I've always thought that if I focus on men, I'm going to turn off, you know, a wife from wanting to be part of this process. You know, in the law firm, we're focused on helping families and that's how it's always going to be. Plus I have attorney. I have a whole bunch of attorneys in the firm who, you know, they, they represent everybody too. And I think if you start to focus too much on one gender, at least it's been my experience in New Jersey that your firm gets a reputation, whether it's earned or not, of being difficult to work with because you're advocating so much for one gender when we really should be advocating for reasonable results, whatever, you know, it should be gender neutral. And so I don't think I'm ever going to do that. And I don't begrudge people that want to represent only women or only men. But really because of what we want to do to change the way divorce is happening and really go to more of a flat fee model, I just want to help people and help people get through this process because I've seen way too many people get completely. It's like bankruptcy to some degree. People have gotten ruined by divorce.

A (46:09)

Sure.

B (46:10)

For no reason. I mean, I've had people fight about things like crock pots and Ikea furniture.

A (46:15)

Things I hear from you, all the fame law attorneys just cracks me up sometimes because it's insane. It's sad, but it cracks me up at the same time. So I. There's Only a couple firms that I know of that, like, really push like they represent one side and that's. It's Cordell and Cordell. Like they represent men. Stingy. It's either. I don't know if it's. I think. I don't think it's stingy. Stingy. I think it's just stingy. Law firm is what it does, but Stangy is. I think they're in, like, 13 states. But Cordell and Cordell, they're in every USA to think. And then they're like, in the UK it's kind of an odd mix, but I. Because I. I did want to ask about that because I was curious as to whether or not you did just represent them. But, I mean, that makes sense. So do you think, though, if you did, would make the support group stronger and vice versa?

B (47:01)

Maybe. But what's interesting is the law firm itself is really not. I'm. I'm less associated with it in general, which is by design. Good, because I want the law firm. I mean, my, My. I do have aspirations that this. This law firm will be in other states soon because it's really building a model of how we can help people get through divorce. And it's less about me. I mean, I don't litigate anymore. I've been into two courtrooms since COVID so I don't litigate. So it's not really so much about me. So I want. I want the firm to really do this. Now, as a divorce strategist, it is about me. I mean, I'm. That's who I am. So that's a little bit different. So I've never really considered this. I mean, I would do it if everyone in my firm wanted it, but, you know, everyone's more satisfied with trying to find ways to help people, and that's really where we're going to stay. I mean, I just. I would say in our mix is about 50, 50 as it is. And quite frankly, it depends on who they are. But some of my most difficult clients I've ever worked with have been men, you know, so. And it's. So it's really. It's really an interesting thing. But I don't begrudge people that want to do just men and just women. We have a lot in New Jersey that focus on only one side of the other. We have a Cordell and Cordell in New Jersey, but we have other, smaller firms that just do one or the other. I just. I feel like they. Their taglines are always very gender specific, like, sure, you know, like helping, you know, helping fathers, you know, not lose their kids and stuff. And I just think it, sometimes it kind of flies in the face of trying to find reasonable solutions to divorce problems, which just means we should come at it much more from the standpoint of what's going to be fair to everybody. Because let me tell you something, There's a lot of women now that make a lot more money than men.

A (48:46)

Absolutely.

B (48:47)

It's all shifted now substantially. Yeah. But. Yeah, I don't think I'm ever going to do it. I mean, I could, who knows, talk to me in five years. Who knows, I might have changed my mind.

A (48:55)

Well, we'll do this again in five years. Was there some sort of triggering event that led you, you away from litigation? Because you, I mean, you were heavily in litigation before, and then what made you want to do more of the, the mediation style?

B (49:08)

So in 2018, I had a 27 day trial.

A (49:12)

In a 2018?

B (49:14)

Yeah, in 2018.

A (49:15)

That's funny because I had a. I have a five week one. So you and I. You and I. Maybe it was around the same time. So.

B (49:19)

Yeah. Well, I don't.

A (49:20)

Nightmare.

B (49:20)

I don't know how yours was scheduled, but mine, the 27 days was over seven months. Months.

A (49:25)

Oh, no, mine was together, so. Wow.

B (49:27)

Yeah, that's how we do things in family court. It's like you come in on a Monday and the next, if your law firm is running fine, but you know you're capable of more, more growth, more freedom, more control. MaxLawCon is where you find your next move. This is two days of strategy systems and straight talk from law firm owners who are actually in the game. No hype, no recycled advice, just the real stuff that's working to grow law firms right now. You're not showing up just for inspiration. You're showing up to make better decisions faster. You're showing up to cut out the guesswork and walk away with a clearer path forward. Because the truth is, trying to figure it out on your own takes longer, cost more, and burns you out. This room, it's where the people serious about building better law firms show up, get the details and grab your ticket@maxlawcon.com.