How Can Lawyers Balance Leadership and Family Life? with Tiffany Webber

Summary

Maximum Lawyer Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: How Can Lawyers Balance Leadership and Family Life?
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Tiffany Weber
Release Date: December 10, 2024

In this compelling episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux engages in an in-depth conversation with Tiffany Weber, a successful attorney navigating the complexities of leadership within her law firm while maintaining a fulfilling family life. This episode delves into the challenges and triumphs that come with running a legal practice, especially in the face of unexpected personal and professional events.

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1. The Dichotomy of Leadership and Personal Life

Balancing Act:
Tiffany begins by sharing her personal struggle to find moments of solitude without feeling overwhelmed by responsibility. She reflects on the demands of parenting a young daughter and the constant need to be available both at home and in her law firm.

• Tiffany Weber [02:04]: "I didn't realize just how much my life would be wrapped up in this. To the point where, like, I don't even want a minute away from her."

Desire to Build vs. Need for a Break:
The conversation explores the inherent conflict many leaders face: the drive to grow their business while yearning for personal downtime.

• Tiffany Weber [02:44]: "There's a dichotomy of I just want to get away from it all, but also, like, this desperate desire to continue making it better because I can."

2. Organizational Challenges and Employee Dynamics

Open Door Policy Gone Awry:
Tiffany discusses the challenges of maintaining an open-door policy, which unintentionally led to a "revolving door" of constant interruptions, hindering her ability to focus on strategic planning.

• Tiffany Weber [05:09]: "I set this up, you know, that people wouldn't just barge in my office and talk to me if I didn't turn or tell them to say, not right now."

Implementing Boundaries:
Recognizing her shortcomings, Tiffany acknowledges the need to establish clearer boundaries to protect her time and ensure her team respects her dedicated work periods.

• Tiffany Weber [06:32]: "I have not put any sort of boundaries in place to protect my own."

3. Navigating Firm Leadership Post-Tragedy

Taking Over After a Partner's Death:
A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Tiffany’s experience of assuming sole ownership of her law firm following the unexpected loss of her law partner, Ben. She shares the emotional and logistical hurdles she faced during this transition.

• Tiffany Weber [37:03]: "I was struggling to think of the right word, but I was reluctant to do it. But I was also a little bit bitter about it."

Client and Employee Reactions:
Tiffany details how clients initially reacted with uncertainty, questioning the firm's future. However, the majority remained supportive, appreciating the continuity and commitment to honoring Ben's legacy.

• Tiffany Weber [40:32]: "Almost overwhelmingly supportive. There were a few people who were like, you know, we like her, but we don't know what she can do."

Leadership Evolution:
Post-tragedy, Tiffany reflects on her growth as a leader, moving from a systems-focused approach to valuing her employees' roles and contributions more deeply.

• Tiffany Weber [17:32]: "Sometimes you have to take a step back from the systems a little bit and look at the people."

4. Innovative Marketing Strategies and Community Engagement

YouTube and Educational Content:
Tiffany highlights the development of her YouTube channel as a strategic marketing tool. Initially created to address frequently asked questions, the channel evolved into a valuable resource for clients and industry peers alike.

• Tiffany Weber [25:27]: "We started doing frequently asked questions. And then from there, people started noticing them and saying, oh, that was really helpful."

Collaborative Efforts with Family:
She credits her husband for his technical expertise and creative input, which have been instrumental in producing high-quality, engaging videos that demystify complex legal processes for clients.

• Tiffany Weber [31:21]: "The equipment does matter... My husband is kind of a jack of all trades in that sense because he loves learning about it."

Community-Centric Initiatives:
One of Tiffany’s standout ideas includes offering free coffee for updated headshots, fostering community relationships while simultaneously networking with potential clients.

• Tiffany Weber [61:14]: "So we'll just budget for it. Like whatever they want, they get. And that's fine because the value of us getting to talk to them and then walking away with something that's meaningful and useful to them."

5. Future Outlook and Industry Adaptation

Embracing Digital Closings:
Tiffany discusses the impending shift towards fully digital real estate closings in North Carolina. Her firm has proactively certified all team members as electronic notaries, positioning themselves ahead of regulatory changes.

• Tiffany Weber [68:07]: "North Carolina had passed. We're the first state to do an electronic closing... We've got all of the software necessary to be able to do Eclipse."

Adapting to Post-NAR Settlement Changes:
The episode addresses potential future challenges stemming from the National Association of Realtors (NAR) settlement, which may increase the number of unrepresented buyers and sellers, thereby expanding the scope of work for closing attorneys.

• Tiffany Weber [70:31]: "We have to come up with a way of, all right, how do we provide the services that these people need without becoming de facto real estate agents, but also making money for it?"

6. Personal Reflections and Growth

Honoring a Legacy:
Tiffany shares heartfelt reflections on honoring her late partner Ben’s legacy, highlighting how his mentorship and support have been pivotal to her professional and personal growth.

• Tiffany Weber [54:12]: "I grew up without my dad in my life and Ben kind of stepped in as like a mentor to the extreme."

Overcoming Early Doubts:
Despite facing skepticism about her capabilities after Ben’s passing, Tiffany emphasizes her resilience and the importance of self-belief in overcoming professional challenges.

• Tiffany Weber [59:36]: "I'm not afraid to try to prove people wrong. But it can be a bad thing when, like, it's okay. I can just relax a little bit."

7. Defining Future Success

Expansion Goals:
Looking ahead, Tiffany outlines her vision for the firm’s growth, including opening a third office and significantly increasing monthly closings across all locations.

• Tiffany Weber [72:52]: "Success for us would be flagship location in Mooresville, averaging 125 closings a month. And then each of our satellite offices, 50 closings a month each."

Maintaining Quality and Integrity:
Tiffany underscores the importance of maintaining high service standards and integrity as the firm expands, ensuring clients receive top-notch legal assistance while fostering a supportive work environment for her team.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tiffany Weber [02:04]: "I just want to be with her. So that’s kind of where my head was at."
• Tiffany Weber [05:09]: "I set this up... people wouldn't just barge in my office and talk to me if I didn't turn or tell them to say, not right now."
• Tiffany Weber [37:03]: "I was struggling to think of the right word, but I was reluctant to do it. But I was also a little bit bitter about it."
• Tiffany Weber [54:12]: "I owe a lot to him. I know a lot of what I've been able to do is because I've tried and worked at it, but he's given me so many opportunities."
• Tiffany Weber [72:52]: "Success for us would be... averaging 125 closings a month."

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Conclusion:

This episode offers a profound look into the life of a lawyer balancing the demands of leadership and family. Tiffany Weber's journey through personal loss, organizational challenges, and innovative marketing strategies provides valuable insights for lawyers aiming to harmonize their professional responsibilities with their personal lives. Her resilience, commitment to growth, and dedication to honoring her legacy serve as an inspiring blueprint for legal professionals striving to achieve a balanced and successful career.

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Tiffany Weber]

This.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. Today's episode is with special guest Tiffany Weber, and it probably ranks in the top five episodes I've ever recorded. We talk about a lot of different things and Tiffany really opened up. We talk about the unexpected loss of her law partner. We talk about her incredible YouTube channel. She does some incredible marketing. We talked about some of her clever networking that she does. We talk about the potential of changing her law firm name and then what success looks like to Tiffany. She really opens up. I think you're really going to get a lot out of this episode, so I hope you enjoy it. So, Tiffany, I want to ask you about a post that you made in March of this year because I think it relates a lot to. To business, running a law firm. It is a lot like this. You wrote it. It was a personal message. But I want to ask you about it.

[Tiffany Weber]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sometimes I catch myself wanting a minute alone, just alone, only to find the beginning of heartbreak in the solitude. Talk about that.

[Tiffany Weber]

I wrote that being a parent, my daughter's 2, so I just remember so many nights of just being like, I just need a minute. Just give me one minute. And then the second she's asleep, I'm attached to the monitor, watching her sleep. Like, I just want to be with her. So that that's kind of where my head was at. Like, I didn't realize just how much my life would be wrapped up in this. To the point where, like, I don't even want a minute away from her. Even when I think I do, I.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Wonder, have there ever been. Because I. There's times where I've been, like, maybe it would just make sense to just sell the firm and I can spend time with family, you know, and have you ever had moments like that?

[Tiffany Weber]

Let's see. Maybe on the drive here this morning. That's. And it's kind of like what my hot seat topic is about, like, this kind of dichotomy of I just want to get away from it all, but also, like, this desperate desire to continue making it better because, you know, you can, which is kind of hard to reconcile a little bit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, let's talk a little bit more about that, because you're right. And I think we probably all have that. That feeling where, like, I want to keep building this thing, but I want to get away from this thing. And it's not that you really want to be away from it, but it's. There's so many stresses.

[Tiffany Weber]

Break.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, what are some of those things that just the. Because we. We know the desire to kind of build, but, like, the. The part like that pulls. Like, what. What is that? Where's that come from? Like, what's the source of that?

[Tiffany Weber]

For me, I think it's the constantly being needed, which is a lot. Like being a parent is that you're always needed 100% of the time. And the pressure to not let people down, too. When everybody's looking at you for the answers and they're not looking at anyone else for the answers. It's a lot of pressure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. It's one of those things where just kind of. And it never seems to stop.

[Tiffany Weber]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. No, I. Have you ever tried to, like, put things in place that would help prevent that?

[Tiffany Weber]

I guess I have, but I'm not super successful at it, and my organization is pretty small. I mean, you have a large organization, so, I mean, have you felt that same way?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean, yeah. I mean, absolutely. It's one of those things where it gets. I've had these conversations with Amy where it just. It's like a constant thing. Like, I. I feel like I've always got something piling up.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, and I think that is where it's. If I felt like we were always on top of every single thing, which is impossible, but if I feel like if we were on top of all those things, then I wouldn't have the stress. But it's like things piling up, but then a million questions from all the people.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes. All the time. Like a revolving door.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Weber]

I've always wanted to have kind of like an open door policy to an extent, but that open door has become a revolving door. Like, when do I get to work on the things you know, like, I want to pour into my people and make sure that they understand their jobs and that they feel empowered and like, they have all the tools they need to succeed, but I don't want to be the only tool they have. Yeah, so how do you get over that or what do you do next is really kind of where I'm. That's where I'm at right now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you set aside time to, quote, unquote, work on things?

[Tiffany Weber]

I do, but it actually working out or the time being honored by the people that I work with? Not always the best.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, well, that's a problem.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why is that happening?

[Tiffany Weber]

Because of me. And that's one of the things that, like, when I reflect, I'm like, I set this up, you know, that people wouldn't just barge in my office and talk to me if I didn't turn or tell them to say, not right now. I'm working on something. You know, I completely enable it and just let the door be wide open and they come on in and I answer what they need and then they do it again.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, there's. There's that concept of where, like, if you're not checking it and it's. And I don't know the exact quote, but, like, you know, you basically, you need to be checking in on your employees, make sure that they're doing everything they're supposed to, and if they. If you're not, they're not going to think it's important, so then they won't do it. I think it's similar to, like, whenever we put rules in place, place, and, you know, people are supposed to follow them, but that if we don't follow them, no one will follow them. I mean, is that like a common trend?

[Tiffany Weber]

It is in, in my firm, it is with respect to, like, me or giving myself time to do it. I want our time to work. I mean, like, I feel like our team is, like, really respectful of each other's time, but I have not put any sort of boundaries in place to protect my own.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So.

[Tiffany Weber]

So I'm kind of just like the, you know, it's. You take the idea of wanting to be kind of like a servant leader of like, not wanting to be, like, high up in a tower and want to want to be available to people, and then just take it to the extreme. That's kind of where I'm at right now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So Ashley Smith and I, we were talking yesterday about this, and we were talking about the line. There's like a line right between you and your Employees. And it can get blurred. And when it gets blocked, blurred, it's kind of a bad thing. How much of that line is maybe blurred?

[Tiffany Weber]

Probably a lot. Especially given how I came up in the firm, beginning as, like, a young associate and then becoming partner, and then my partner dying and then me just being me. They went from being a co worker with me to me being their boss in a relatively short amount of time. And I don't want to take it off track of your thought, but this makes me think of. I only recently read that Harvard Business Review article, the where is the Monkey?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yes.

[Tiffany Weber]

And I put the sticky note on my monitor because I'm like, I need this all the time. Because I'm the one with all the monkeys in the room. And because I just want it. It's like the desire to help, but you can only help so much. Like, I've hired people that are good at their jobs, and I want them to go and do that job well. And then I just keep taking work off their plate.

[Tyson Mutrix]

The problem with that article is it will ruin you because you read it and you realized all of the monkeys are on your back and you're like, it's. It is. I have to remind myself many times about that article, but it is. It is. That's the thing with that article. Like, you realize, oh, my gosh, it's riot. And a big part of it is, I think there's a difference between putting the monkey on someone's back and then also buck passing there. There's the buck passing part of it, too. Luckily, we don't have a whole lot of. I've had that in the past with employees were like, they, they're very busy, but they're really just pushing things on other people's plates. I mean, how much of that do you experience?

[Tiffany Weber]

We've had that before, but they don't make it very long with us. You know, some people have, like, skated under the radar, but for the most part, it's people coming with a question that they have every intent of resolving once they have my guidance or input. But then I say, I'll. I'll do it. You know, I'll take a task or part of that so that they can't act until I've done something. Something when really they just needed a couple sentences with next steps, and then they go forth and do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Those are. Those are the absolute best employees, you know, you can use. Hey, here's what I need. This is the result. And they go do it. I think that's pretty good. I want to go back. So you. When you started with a firm, and I. And I did look at it, I don't remember the name of it, but it had Thomas in it. But it did not. Had two other names. So when you joined, what. What happened? Or they didn't leave because you joined, but you joined as a. Was it an associate?

[Tiffany Weber]

Okay. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you didn't join. You were jin join in law school. You joined actually after law school.

[Tiffany Weber]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right. What was the firm dynamic like then? And who are these other two partners? I'd never heard of that until I was doing some research.

[Tiffany Weber]

So the firm is called Thomas, Godley, and Grimes. I came in to work as a litigation associate for the Grimes portion. The firm did a little bit of everything. Real estate, family law, litigation, estate planning. No criminal, you know, but kind of like the general stuff that you would need at a general practice in a smaller town in the south. So started doing litigation. And the dynamic was really kind of the guy that I worked for, his wife, personal injury attorney at a kind of popular personal injury firm here in Charlotte, and she wanted out. She wanted to move away and come join us. So the guy that I worked for was really pushing for that. And ultimately the outcome of that was that we decided rather than bringing in more practice areas, we were going to go the opposite way and just focus on our own. And, you know, it was all amicable, but it was a little bit difficult to undo after kind of the tenure of those partners or at least two of the three partners in the community.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I've wondered about that before with practice area, with firms that have multiple practice areas like that, because it. To me, it seems like a bunch of, like, extension cords going to a bunch of different outlets. And it's one of those things where, like, if you go, you don't really know necessarily, because the cords are not marked. Like, how do you unplug each one? And who. Where does each one go? So that's what I visualize. Is that what it's like?

[Tiffany Weber]

It was exactly like that, even just down to, like, the software that you use. Because in real estate, you have to have a certain type of software that only does real estate. So then you're looking at multiple practice management softwares and having to look a bunch of different places for complex checks. And really, like, the deciding factor for it was that we were doing well in real estate, which we were, of course, happy about, but we were conflicting out so many family law cases. So, you know, we've done like, four or five real estate Closings for a couple, and then they want to get divorced. Now, you can't represent either one of those in a family law case. So it's like, man, if we're doing well, but it's hurting team members. Something's not working right here. Like, this maybe isn't the best way for us to set this up.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I never thought about that. That's got to be a massive problem with general practice firms.

[Tiffany Weber]

I mean, I think. So this is the only one I've ever been part of, so I can't necessarily speak for the others, but it was really a big problem for us.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So as an intern or anything, did you work for another firm?

[Tiffany Weber]

I worked full time during law school at Electrolux, which is here in Charlotte. I guess I should mention that's where we're sitting when we're recording. People probably can figure that out. So I just. I worked in the corporate world, and I thought I was going to stay there after graduation, but then a merger we were working on got nixed by the doj, so had to look elsewhere. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right. Those are drastically different positions. Right. You're going from that corporate world over to. Which is like. Was it in house counsel?

[Tiffany Weber]

I guess, yeah, that was the plan.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. So to a small firm.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Different lifestyles completely. What drew you to that firm?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, I don't know that it was necessarily specifically the firm. It was a job in a law firm that I was after. And I did not go work full time. And living in Charlotte at the time, that really the only way to do that was to go to Charlotte School of Law. And it doesn't exist anymore. So as you can imagine, the reputation for students from Charlotte School of Law was not great. Never mind you that I didn't have to go there. It was the best thing for my family at the time. So you can't be like, well, if I would have grew on time, I would have just, you know, taken the spot at Chapel Hill, or I would have just gone to Wake Forest.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But.

[Tiffany Weber]

But it didn't work out for my family. So the job prospects were honestly not very good. I remember meeting with. There's a partner at a big law firm in Charlotte who had known my mother in law and said, yeah, I'll meet with Tiffany. I'll talk to her. And he told me that the best I could hope for because of where I graduated law school was to do document review my whole career. And that pissed me off. And I said, okay, I'm gonna show you. So really it was just to get I wasn't so much attracted to the firm. It was. Okay, this is my leaping point. We'll see what happens there. And if I have to make a move in a couple years, great. But I didn't necessarily have it in my sights that, like, I'm going to end up owning this firm or I want to become partner at this firm. I wish it was a little more romantic than that, but it's not.

[Tyson Mutrix]

There's a couple places I want to go with this. I want to. Let's go back for a second, because the job market. So you graduated in 20, 2016, is that right?

[Tiffany Weber]

I graduated December 2015, and then February 2016. Bar.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so you became a lawyer, I guess, in 2017.

[Tiffany Weber]

20. March 2016, I guess.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Tiffany Weber]

March 2016.

[Tyson Mutrix]

My math was awful, but. So the market was not good at the time. It was. I remember that. So 2017 is whenever I started law school. And I do remember, like, all they talked about was how bad the market was. I wonder how that's guided your decision making.

[Tiffany Weber]

I think maybe I've always been a little bit too optimistic, so I'm not sure that it did. Maybe it should have, but I've always kind of had the bet on myself mentality like, I'll make something happen. So it didn't really.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. So you learned no lessons from that, then? No, there's nothing wrong with that. So sometimes we do that. Especially when you're. I mean, you're at that time in your career, right? You. You think you're gonna work in the corporate world. You're not gonna be running your own firm. So your mindset is not okay. This is what I would do if I were running a company. Like, it's just not. It's not. It's. It's a different mindset. And you end up joining this firm. And I. My question I wanted to ask you was, like, why. Why did you stay there?

[Tiffany Weber]

Stubbornness a little bit. So my husband has been an entrepreneur since, like, the day we met, really. So he was running his own business. It was a gym. And naturally, at the dinner table, we're talking about ways to make the gym better, so. And I was a marketing major, so I had a little bit of the bug. And just seeing how few systems the firm had in place, how much opportunity there was, I saw it as an opportunity for myself of, okay, I can come in. And if they. If they're open to my ideas, I know that I can make some things happen. I know I could grow our market share in real estate or I Know, I could help estate planning become more efficient. And it was just kind of like sheer force of will of like, I'm just going to keep trying until they listen, and if they never do, then I'll move on. But they did. So then it kind of. I kind of got some momentum and was like, all right, I'm. I'm making a change here. I'm making this business a little bit better. Let me learn some more and just see how much further I could take it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Where does that come from? I understand that feeling. It's almost like cleaning house in a way. Where you see this mess, you're like, I gotta clean that up kind of thing, I guess. Where does that desire, though, to kind of fix things and make it better? Where does that come from?

[Tiffany Weber]

That's a great question. Maybe oldest child syndrome of wanting to take care of things. And I don't know, I guess I've also always been really pattern and detail oriented and like, wanting things to make sense, be orderly, and when they're not, it's almost like a compulsion of, like, how do I make this orderly?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Weber]

So I guess maybe that's it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How does that affect your leadership now?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, sometimes you have to take a step back from the systems a little bit and look at the people, which I am only really, maybe the last year and a half, two years learning to do. And I, like I mentioned earlier, like, the sheer force of will just trying to make things fit even when maybe they don't. And sometimes that means, like, parting ways with people that you really adore and maybe have been with the business a long time. But when you look at, like, the growth of the organization and what you have to do to serve your clients well, maybe they don't fit in that. Or sometimes you maybe have overlooked someone that you assumed wasn't a good fit, but they actually work perfectly within a system that serves your clients well. So I don't have that figured out, but it's something, something I've been learning recently.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm curious where, why. Because the. I'm very similar to that. Like, my focus was, okay, client experience number one. Right. And then to do that, it's systems. Right. And so that. That was like, where all that came from. And for the longest time I was ignoring the employees. I mean, not completely ignore them, but, like, how important they were to everything. And like, I've learned they are everything.

[Tiffany Weber]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's. It's. The systems are fantastic, it's great. But it's. The actual employees are the most important part. So I wonder what led you to that conclusion.

[Tiffany Weber]

It unfortunately was seeing that, like, again, people that I adored were really not doing the best job for our clients, that I liked being around them. I thought they were awesome. But when you look at their skill set and their track record of, like, not meeting certain expectations, it just wasn't going to work. It was kind of the heartbreak side of that, of knowing that, gosh, I really like all these people personally, but they just can't get the job done the way that we want to do it for our clients. But there's also wiggle room in there that you've got people that maybe don't perfectly fit the system, but they're just a wizard on the phone. Or, like, they're excellent at making people feel heard or just making them feel like they had the best real estate closing experience on earth. So you gotta give them a little bit of room to do that. I mean, like, there's some magic involved as well if you let it happen.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. The people replacing. I wouldn't call them the bad people. The people that are not underperformers with good people is really, really important. Did these people self select out or did you have to make the tough call?

[Tiffany Weber]

Had to make the tough call. And the worst of it, I would say, was at the beginning of this year. So it's been an interesting year. We did some refill or filling of those positions, and those people didn't work. Some of those people didn't work out. So I've been trying to. Been listening to the Max Law podcast since 2016, maybe early 2017. And how many times have you guys said higher slow, fire fast. And I'm only just now learning the fire fast part.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, it's hard.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah. Like, some of the people that we let go at the beginning of this year had been six, seven years, and this could have been done three years ago, four years ago. But, you know, I feel like the cycle time of getting the replacements out that didn't work out was much shorter and we're going to be better for it. But, gosh, it's hard.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm gonna put you in that moment of just the moments right before you're gonna terminate the person. Are they. Are they sitting in the conference room? Where are they?

[Tiffany Weber]

In the conference room?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so you're in your office. You are getting ready to go into there, in there and have your conversation with them. And what's going through your mind in those moments just before you walk in.

[Tiffany Weber]

There, aside from get your heart rate down, it's the reminding myself that if I don't make this decision, if I don't go through with it, then the rest of the people working there that have been picking up the slack will continue suffering because they already have been by this person being there. And that it's. It's also for the good of my family, too. Not to be, like, dramatic or anything, but paying people who aren't performing is kind of throwing away money that could be used to build my daughter's college fund or, you know, like, build a savings for my family or reward other employees who are crushing it. And instead that money is going to somebody who's not performing. And it's also like, okay, well, this person is not a good fit here. We're also denying them the chance to go work somewhere that they really like, will find their thing, because they will find their thing. It just doesn't have to be here completely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Did the employees see it coming, the one you have in mind? I'm sure you probably have one in mind, at least. Whenever I think I was thinking, like, one person, but did they see it coming?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes, but a little bit in denial.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What do you mean?

[Tiffany Weber]

In the sense that I think they'd seen it coming for three or four months, and they had been asking their manager questions, like, to suggest that they knew that maybe something was up. But then in the room, they acted like, how could this be? How could you do this to me? What do you mean? I thought I was so great despite, like, performance conversations. So, you know, that's not really the time to, like, rehash everything that you've already told them about how they've been doing. So it's kind of tough in the room to be like, okay, I'm not engaging in this conversation, but, you know.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like, that's a tough part of it. Yeah. You said something that is really, really important that will help you with that. It'll be overlooked, and I want to highlight it. The breathing. Getting the breathing down is really, really important because your heart rate starts to go up. You really are not controlling your breathing, but taking those deep breaths and really kind of lowering your stress is really, really important.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah. Do you do that when you're about to fly?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't get stressed when I fly. But if any stressful moment, if I'm arguing a big moment, if I'm having to have a difficult conversation with somebody, things like that, I will go through a breathing technique that will help bring that stress down. I usually do box breathing of some sort that allows me to do it but that. Yeah, that's a significant part of it where you. You. Because if you're not. If you don't do that, you're. You're not gonna be thinking clearly.

[Tiffany Weber]

No, you've got the shaky voice, and then you're thinking about your shaky voice, and, you know, yes, the.

[Tyson Mutrix]

This is something is important. For people that have never been through this, you have. You'll start to have the shaky voice, and then you're like, I'm supposed to be strong in this moment, and I'm sounding weak in this moment, and they're gonna think, I.

[Tiffany Weber]

Maybe I'll change my mind, because, you know, I don't sound convinced.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And, Bill, you're. The voice is wavering, so. They're wavering a little bit. That. That is such an important part.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Just to understand that that's what's gonna happen in the moment. What would it take to convince you to sell your firm? Other than money? So you.

[Tiffany Weber]

Other than money.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So the number's right. Okay, so it's the right number, but.

[Tiffany Weber]

Other than money, I think there are some, like, personal goals that I will have wanted to meet. You know, like, we're. We're about to open our third office. You know, I've got, like, some market share in mind that I feel like would. You know, it's not excessive, but it would feel really meaningful to do. But I think also I'd have to mentally be in a spot where I'd be ready to try something new, because I don't think if I were to sell the firm, I think I'd be done with law.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you would. You would step out.

[Tiffany Weber]

I wouldn't go work for someone else. So I would either have to be ready to tackle, like, a new practice area or move to another state. Like, there'd have to be some big catalyst, like, be done with law, totally switch practice areas, move to a different state, move to a different country, something like that. But if I'm staying in my town, then, you know, it's probably me being like, okay, I'm ready to try to go, like, teach a business law class out of college or something. I like teaching. I like helping people understand, like, in. In our practice areas, they lend themselves very well to educating. So the whole closing process is a mini seminar. And I really like that. That's the thing that makes me most excited to do the job. So I think if I were to stop practicing law, I'd have to go into some sort of, I would think higher education probably, but probably something like that. Or if the YouTube thing continues. I'd never want to. To consider that as, like, a real possibility, but I'm being confronted with the fact that it might be.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I want to ask you about the video. So let's get into that because your videos are fantastic. They are really, really good videos.

[Tiffany Weber]

I can't take all the credit. I've got to give my husband credit for that. But I do have to talk.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You're an essential part of it. You're the, you're the one that's talking. You're the one that's on camera, but I can see where you're talking about. You were like, you would be a fantastic teacher because, because you explain it. It's like such simple terms, and it's like I was watching them and I just kind of get sucked into them. Because you do such a really good job on them.

[Tiffany Weber]

Algorithm.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, you just do an awesome job doing it. And I followed you so I could figure out how you do things because it's such a cool way of doing it.

[Tiffany Weber]

Thank you.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What got you into doing those?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, we started because we were getting so many of the same question. It was really just kind of like, save our sanity a little bit of, you know, when you get asked, what is the due diligence fee for your, you know, 900th time, you're like, if we just had a video on this, that anytime someone in our firm got this question, they could just send the video. It's going to save a lot of people a lot of time. So we just started doing frequently asked questions. And then from there, people started noticing them and saying, oh, that was really helpful. I used it when I was teaching my. They're a broker in charge and they taught their agents with that. So we realized it was actually helping some people. And so we continued to do it. And it took a long time before we put dollars behind it, but eventually we did. And, you know, we will take turns doing that or not doing that, but it was really just out of necessity to save ourselves some emails and phone calls.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Was the firm doing the videos before?

[Tiffany Weber]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No. So you, like, this was something new to the firm entirely.

[Tiffany Weber]

And they came kicking and screaming, did not want to do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So they were, they were completely against it. What, what convinced them?

[Tiffany Weber]

My husband, really. He had just sold his gym and made a tidy profit on it. And he had grown it through video, among other things. But one of the biggest things was video. And they, because they knew about the transaction, they're like, how did he grow it from this, like, little tiny gym? To, you know, nothing huge, but enough to make it so that he didn't have to work for a couple years if he didn't want to. So they started talking to him about his strategies, and they're like, well, what do you think you could do for us that didn't involve a camera? And he's like, probably a lot of things. But you asked about what worked, what best for me, and this was it. They're like, but we're lawyers. We can't. That we're different. The same thing that you've heard a million times. And he's like, well, what if you're not different? Like, what if you. You just committed to eight months of this and we just see what happens? And if at the end of eight months, you're not satisfied, just don't ever do it again.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Was it really eight months?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why'd he pick eight months?

[Tiffany Weber]

Because he felt like by six months they'd start to see some momentum and then they wouldn't want to stop. Yeah, he was right. But they did not want to do it. Really. The main thing, they were like, well, what are the other lawyers going to say? I'm like, well, good thing the other lawyers are not our clients.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's interesting you said it, because I asked Paul Yucca by this about haters. Those are just haters, right? They just. That's what they are. And so what, like, what are your. I wonder what their mindset was on that. And what your mindset is clear. Clearly they're afraid of the haters. They were afraid of haters. I don't know if you were, but what at the time that you wanted to do these videos and your husband wanted to do. To do the videos and I don't know, maybe you didn't want to at the time, but I guess. What were your view? What was your view? Were you afraid of people? You know, what they were going to say?

[Tiffany Weber]

A little bit, yeah. And I didn't necessarily want to do the videos. I wanted to grow the business, and I wanted to show that something new could help the business rather than only doing things the old way. Like, let's do a mix of both. So the videos were just like, okay, this is one of the tests. We'll try this, and if it works, awesome. Yeah, I was a little bit afraid just because it was something I'd never done before. I'm like, I don't want to look stupid. What if I say something wrong? Well, the great thing about a camera is that if you say something wrong, you Just pause or start over or cut it out. Like, it's. It's really not that deep.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What was the plan? Was the plan for you to be in the videos from the beginning or were you gonna have the other attorneys too?

[Tiffany Weber]

The plan was not for me to do it in the beginning. At first it was only the partners and the guy, my law partner that passed away, he was probably the best on camera, but he was not excited about it. He was one of the main ones that was like, I've done all of my business through going to the chamber meetings and, you know, networking events, like, awesome. You don't have to stop doing that. This is just another thing we're trying. He really didn't want to do it, but he was the best. So the other partners were like, oh, you're actually kind of good at this. So then he got all, you know, pumped up because, like, okay, I'll keep going. But the other two really struggled. I mean, they really struggled. And like the guy that I came in to work for, awesome litigator. But he thought every video had to be like a movie montage. He had some a background and like he was a producer on a movie once and it just. Everything had to be a movie montage. It was just like, that's not really what we're doing here.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So what does it take to be good in the videos that are required for us? Because it is different. It's not a movie. But what is it that's required?

[Tiffany Weber]

I think it's not even an expert level on your subject matter, but an ability to break down what could be a difficult concept very simply. And that's about it. And being willing to press record. I don't think it's overly complicated. I mean, I guess if you want to like make video your whole thing, you have to have some charisma and, you know, not be afraid to stumble. But really at the very basic level, I think it's just being able to simply break down concepts and being willing to show up and do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And that's like the baseline. The. Yours are very expertly done. And so I want to ask you about that too. What does it take to produce those high quality videos that you produce because they're really good?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, the equipment does matter. You don't have to have fancy equipment to start. But if you want to have something like more like what we do, then, you know, you have to have a little bit better equipment. You have to have someone that knows how to use it. Someone that, like, when it comes to editing Knows how to color grade, knows how to make the audio just right, knows how to employ graphics tastefully. So not just not being constantly graphics but also having right visual aids. So my husband is kind of a jack of all trades in that sense because he loves learning about it. But it's kind of rare to find that all in one person that you also get a deep family discount on. So it's not cheap. You know, we have other team members that work on it. And so it's, it's really not just like a one man show. So I think it takes, you know, the equipment, the knowledge of the right people and usually knowing that that's not only one person. A lot of times a person that's really good at filming is not necessarily also really good at editing an educational style video. So knowing that it's not a one.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Size fits all, would you recommend that a firm hire someone and then get them trained in that like to learn all those things like your husband, if.

[Tiffany Weber]

You have the, if this is going to be like a core pillar of growing your business and you have the resources or you are able to make the resources. Yes. But I wouldn't say to start. That's only after you've like started doing some work. I think it would be really hard to bring someone in to start from scratch that really doesn't already have all of that skillset. But if you've been, you know, doing video for a little bit already and you have some examples of things that you know that you like that worked really well, then you can like train to that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I wonder what your thoughts are. There's, I'm not going to say bad about anything bad about the company that they're, they're a highly successful company. They, they produce very high quality, quality videos for attorneys. They're these, the montages.

[Tiffany Weber]

And that's who my boss at the time. I know, exactly.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yes. So they, I guess he wanted to hire them. Okay, that's interesting. Well that's, this is gonna, I know the answer to the question then, but I wonder what your thoughts are on those and is there a place for those videos?

[Tiffany Weber]

I think there is a place for those videos, but it's not, it's not the place that like a lot of the ways that people find their attorney is by getting on Google and YouTube. Being part of Google and being like so highly, you know, ranked for search results. They're not necessarily Googling like the commercial style video. There's probably not going to be a lot of keywords that would come out of that to talk about how awesome you are and like kind of beating your chest of, you know, all of the testimonials, like they're not really googling real estate lawyer client testimonial, they're googling what happens in a real estate closing. So I think if you've got like, if you have an ad spot that's going to air on television or you know, some other context where you're going to have like just a ton of eyeballs on your video at once. Okay, yeah, that makes sense. But I don't think it makes sense for like the day to day going hard after your marketing type stuff.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. It's successful. Those companies are successful because they go and they kind of stroke your ego.

[Tiffany Weber]

It's definitely vanity.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a lot of vanity. There's a lot of, I mean a lot of trial lawyers that have them. It's one of those things where it's an ego play. And to me, ego plays aren't very successful when it comes to marketing. Yeah, like there's, I mean there's a lot of examples of that. You know, billboards, there, there are ways of using billboards. But it's interesting to me that the, the focus is no longer on the client, it's on the attorney, which is ass backwards compared to every other industry.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah, I mean, I think if somebody's watching a video that it's because they want to know what is it going to feel like to work with that person? How am I going to feel? How am, what will happen to me? Not, oh, you know, you think you're the best trial lawyer in the state or, you know, you've had this other person, got a great verdict, that's great for them, but what's going to happen to me? So if our, like, if our content and the way we're speaking to the clients isn't helping them understand their own journey. I'm not sure that I want to spend time and effort making that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, if you look at any of the best marketing in the world, it's, it's how, how does it make that person feel? And if they just see this, oh, you look fantastic. That's great.

[Tiffany Weber]

Really nice. Slow mo.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it looks really, you look great. But it doesn't move them to do anything. And I'm not even sure there's calls to action there, which is like, then what's the point of it?

[Tiffany Weber]

Do you have one of those?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I do not have one of those.

[Tiffany Weber]

You don't strike me as like, I mean, I could see maybe like, eight years ago, you being like, well, let's see. But I. You don't strike me as an attorney that would have one of those.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I take that back. I might have one. And if I do, it was one that Kent put together for free of me flying. Yeah. I don't know. Did. I don't know if he ever created one. Amy's. Give me that. I don't know. But if it does exist, if he did create it, it's never been put out there. So I might have one, but I've never used it. Yeah. All right, I'm going to ask you. I'm going to shook yours. You recorded a video. It's also a very good video. It's also very sad video and a powerful video. And it was a message after Ben died. And Ben is, for people that don't know, is your former partner. What was going through your mind as you prepared for that video and as you were actually recording that video?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, I was a little bit. I'm struggling to think of the right word, but I was reluctant to do it. But I was also a little bit bitter about it. I did it out of necessity because immediately people started circling, saying, is the firm for sale? Are you guys going to shut down? Like, rather than, like, there were so few attorneys in our area. And the ones that did, like, I will kind of remember for the rest of my life that reached out and said, how can we help? Are you okay? We'll send somebody to help you do closings because we know you guys are busy. There were a few people like that, but some others that I maybe would have thought, like, I had a better relationship with. Their question was, to whoever they could ask, how much are they going to sell it for? And I was mad. So in addition to grieving, like, okay, I think people need to understand that we're not going anywhere, that we're not. We're destabilized in the sense that a person very important to us is no longer here with us. But as far as the business, like, he passed away on a Saturday, the very next week. We had, like, 68 closings, and we didn't miss one or have to reschedule one at all. So we're here. We're going to get it done. And that was kind of the purpose of it. Thankfully, once I started talking, it hopefully didn't come across as angry. It was a little more heartfelt and just letting people know, like, what a great guy he was and what we lost and that we're committed to, like, honoring his legacy by staying, not going anywhere.

[Tyson Mutrix]

When you said you were bitter, I was very, very surprised because I did not get that at all. I now want to go back and watch it and see if I can catch any of that. But I didn't catch it at all. When the. The shark started to circle you. The. There had to been some sort of doubt, but the anger. But maybe not. I don't know. But was there any doubt that maybe they're circling because I can't do this?

[Tiffany Weber]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And it wasn't necessarily me thinking I couldn't. It was me being angry that they were circling because they felt like I couldn't. Like, oh, she's. He was a lawyer for. He got licensed the same month I was born. You know, like I told him that was the best month of his life is that those two things happened. You know, you look at someone who's like, when he passed away, gosh, that was 20, 21. So I'd been licensed five years. You know, it not that long, and especially not that long to have a firm that was doing the volume that we were during that Covid era time. So I can understand why people might think that, like, oh, he brought her in because her husband does the marketing, so he owes it to her. Or maybe he's. This is his long term play and he's going to try to train her up over the next 10, 15 years to take it over until his kids get out of law school. You know, like, I could understand those things, but I had also felt a little bit like I had demonstrated through my work and through my other efforts that I could do this and that they should have a little bit more faith in him, that he wouldn't pick someone that couldn't do it. He always told me that, don't get a partner. Don't get a partner unless you need one. And you only need one if you don't have the money or you don't have the skills. He had the money and the skills, but he felt like I had some different things to bring to the table. He definitely didn't need the money. So I'm like, trust him a little bit that he chose wisely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How did your clients react?

[Tiffany Weber]

Almost overwhelmingly supportive. There were a few people who were like, you know, we like her, but we don't know what she can do. So it took me a little bit to win them over, but it was almost overwhelmingly supportive. You know, at first they were like, okay, we want you to know we're not going anywhere. Just because he died we're not going to just pull our business because he died. Now, it's a little bit bittersweet to say this, but most of the people that come in now don't really know who he is. So we, like, try to honor his legacy, of course. But it's also a little bit satisfying to know that they're not just staying out of pity. They're staying because of the work that we do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Did you ever lose anybody because of it?

[Tiffany Weber]

A couple. And it was, like, people that I didn't necessarily, over the years, get to know because at the volume we were doing, it was kind of impossible for both of us to know everybody that the other was working with, so. And some of those people were kind of just like the old guard as well, that were. They were also retiring. So it was a little bit of natural attrition and then some that were just like, you know, I don't know her. He was my guy. I know some other people that are, you know, I know better, then I'll go work with them.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Got less than 5% left. Did the support. Support from the clients that stayed. Did that surprise you?

[Tiffany Weber]

A little bit. Yeah. I. I think. I just. I think back to the moment when I found out, and we're actually on the way to go get dinner with him. So I'm like, you know, like, put my shoes on. We're gonna go meet them for dinner. His wife calls, and she says, I'm just letting you know that I found Ben unresponsive. And she paused, and I thought the next words were on the way to the hospital. But the next words were, and he has passed away. So I just sit down in my closet, I yell for my husband, and he comes in thinking that I've, like, broken something. And I said, what are we going to do? Like, that was. I'm like, how do we do this without him? First of all, how completely unfair that this is. This is real life. But what do we do? Like, I have no idea how we're gonna keep up this volume, how I'm gonna continue without my, like, North Star. So, you know, I say all that to say yes. I was a little bit surprised because I had no idea what would happen and where it would go.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Did you ever consider selling?

[Tiffany Weber]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why not?

[Tiffany Weber]

Stubbornness. Because I knew I could do it. So it was. If the option to buy out the estate share was not going to be one for me, I was going to start over. It was. It was either I own that firm or I own another firm. But I was Going to do it myself.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. If, if the sharks had not circled, so you don't have that element, do you think that you still would have wanted to buy the firm or the buy out his share?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why is that?

[Tiffany Weber]

Because I've, I put so much into it. And it was always the plan that within, you know, he was 63 when he passed away. By 67, he wanted to be done. He had, at one point he said 70, but he was like, okay, you're picking this up pretty quickly. Like, I just want to be able to be done and like putter around, come in when I want to, and then see my children through to getting out of law school. So the plan was always between us that it would be me. And I also felt a little bit of like this is what we had talked about. I'm going to honor what we had agreed to, which was I'm going to run this place in a way that would make us both proud. So, no, even if they hadn't been circling, it was, I was going to see it through.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Now that you've, you've owned the firm for four years, is that right?

[Tiffany Weber]

Three, three and a half. Well, we started in 2020, so I was part owner and then sole owner 2021.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So, you know, three years sole owner. His expectation to kind of what I would, you know, heard called being in the owner's box versus being in the C suite. So he's just, you know, he shows up whenever he wants, you know, gets his kids through college. Do you think that that's realistic now?

[Tiffany Weber]

I'm struggling with that currently. So I don't know the way, currently the way our business is set up. I don't, I couldn't just putter around, but I think it's doable to get to a point where the owner of the firm doesn't have to be so ingrained in the day to day that there's more flexibility. So I think that's probably it. There's maybe a happy medium between the way I'm, the way the firm is currently, currently operating, and then the vision he saw for himself.

[Tyson Mutrix]

To me, it seems really difficult to separate whenever you have lawyers and I'll just say this, professionals in general, whether you're a doctor, an accountant, lawyer, it's really, really hard to take that professional and then out of the C suite, we'll call it, and into that owner's box completely. And you may disagree with that, you may agree, I don't know. But like, do you think it's possible, and if not, Though, if you're more on my side, where I think it's. I don't know if it's impossible, but it's really, really difficult. Why is that?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, I think some of it has to do with our training. I think, to do what we do. Like, any professional that has to have, like, extended schooling to do their job, there's an academic in them, there's, like, a desire to learn, there's a desire to, like, to be able to explain or understand the world. And I think at a certain point when you stop doing that, I think that's why a lot of professionals, like, when they stop doing their thing, they get ill or their health takes a turn because they're not challenging. They feel like they don't have their purpose or they don't have the thing that's challenging them anymore. So think that probably has a little bit to do with it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's. Some of it's like how we're hardwired to try to understand the world through academics.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure, when you took over and we talked a little bit about firing people and managing people, but during those initial weeks and months, what was it like with the employees? Did they rally or were they. Was it. Obviously people were sad, but was it more supportive or was it, you know, less supportive? What was that like?

[Tiffany Weber]

Extremely supportive. A tiny bit fearful, but we all were, because it was, like, uncharted territory. You know, they had confidence in me, but at the same time, like, he was the money man. So, like, we had to make sure we kept revenue coming in. So they were just a little bit, like, uncertain as to what's the long term play here. In the short term, everybody was extremely supportive, worked their tails off. Like, I look back and I'm kind of shocked at what we were able to accomplish and to be able to proudly say we didn't have to cancel a reschedule or like, we didn't miss a beat. And it's all because of them. I mean, there is no way that I would have been able to solely do all of those closings by myself if they weren't doing everything else. I mean, they just had it all covered and couldn't be more thankful that they did that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Were there any detractors, Anyone that left?

[Tiffany Weber]

Not immediately.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Did they ultimately end up leaving because he was no longer here, or was it other reasons?

[Tiffany Weber]

There was one person that left. He had been kind of protecting her for a long time. You know, those people that are extremely good at their jobs, but really not Good with people. And she'd kind of run off some really good employees over the years. When he wasn't there anymore, he kind of. The buffer between us was gone. And I don't think I was a jerk about it, but I'd kind of laid out the expectations of if, like, you're really good at your job, but if you want to continue to work here, you're not running off. You're not running everybody off. Like, this is. We got to treat people with kindness and respect. And it wasn't immediate, but just a couple months later, she. She turned in her notice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, it's probably for the best. It was for both.

[Tiffany Weber]

I wish her the best, but it was for the best for the business.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Did you have, you know, those deep conversations with. With all the employees about revenue and all that where, like, hey, I know that he's. He's the money person, but we'll figure this out. Or is it more. We'll take direction from leadership. Leadership will talk about it amongst themselves and then report back to us.

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, at that time, I was the only leadership, so that was. That was the only place they could get their information. And while I didn't necessarily go into detail, like, he was. He was pretty wealthy. He had a lot of savings. You know, when he got two planes and two boats, people kind of get an idea of what, you know, the kind of money you have. So they knew that, like, okay, well, if we were to have a bad month, he can float it. I didn't have that track record, and not. Nor did I want to have to pull from my personal savings to be able to float the business. But, you know, what I did say to them is like, okay, the numbers are really obvious, that we are our market shares through the roof. We're doing 200 closings a month. That's kind of unheard of for a firm of our size. Money is not an issue. So if you're worried about will the firm be able to pay you, that is the last thing you need to have on your mind. What we need to be worried about is we need to make sure that we have enough attorneys to do the closings. And right now, one attorney can't do 200 closings by themselves. So that kind of helped calm people down about that, like, knowing that we're not looking at layoffs, we're not looking at, like, pay cuts or anything like that. Like, everyone's going to be fine making their money.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why haven't you changed the name of the firm?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, lately I haven't Been thinking about it. At first it was for the sake of like stability and the optics in the community. He was, well, he was kind of like a well known attorney, philanthropist. Like a lot of people knew his name. So if I had changed the name immediately, I think there would have been some backlash. So at least for like a year and a half, two years, people were like, I'm really glad that you've kept the name. And now that we're getting to the point where we're like, okay, so you're a Weber, who is your husband Thomas, is your dad Thomas? You know, like that's what people are asking. And I'm realizing, okay, like the name still means a lot to a lot of people in the community, but it's not necessarily that that's why they're coming. But before he passed away, we had, we'd gotten like, we'd started using Law at the Lake for lots of things because further down the road we wanted to be able to rebrand to Law at the Lake, but we wanted to not. We wanted to do it subtly. People already know us as Law at the Lake. So that at this point, if I were to just change it to Law at the Lake, like they'd be like, oh yeah, that's. You've been doing that for years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah. So it wouldn't just be like a now suddenly what they were calling Thomas and Weber, now they have to call Law at the Lake. It's all kind of been the same to them for four years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you considered maybe creating Law at the Lake as a separate brand and keep the same current, the current name running at the same time?

[Tiffany Weber]

I've never thought about that. How would I. Tell me more.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's something I just thought of. So I don't know. But I do wonder if you could build up and it may not make any sense, but it's one of the things that we can kind of spitball here. If you, if you had Law at the Lake, okay, you have the current firm name and the kind of test out to see which one performs better, name wise and everything. Yeah, it would essentially all kind of feed into the same place, essentially. But I don't know, it was one of the things I was thinking like maybe if you rebranded it. But then I was also thinking with the Google reviews and all that, like you're not going to get those transferred over if you do it this way. So I don't know. Something I was just thinking about as we were talking.

[Tiffany Weber]

I like it because then it would kind of be like the hard data we would need to pull the trigger too.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Tiffany Weber]

It's like, it's inevitable. We know at some point we're just going to transition to that. You know, another element of that is that there might be some. The goal is that Ben's kids come back and practice with me. I'd love for that. Like, his daughter has just finished her first year of law school. His son's about to start law school. And I would be honored if they came back and worked with me. But I also, I could see some confusion too, with their last name being Thomas and it being Thomas and Weber, that it might be like, I don't want to just go like Weber and Thomas. That would be kind of pointless to do that. Like, just go law at the lake. But then we don't have any questions of, like, people thinking these brand new attorneys are partners.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It would be. It would be an interesting full circle moment if one of them in the future ended up becoming your law partner.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah, it would every. It would be, you know, I'm not so sentimental that I'm like, this is what has to happen if it works out and. And they want to practice the type of law that we're going to do at the firm. Like, I'm not going to restructure the entire, entire firm and just change what we're doing to make them fit. But, like, the deal I'd made with Ben is like, when I retire, if they graduate law school, can you just give them a job? I'm not saying, like, and if they, if they're terrible, they don't have to. You can fire them, but can you just give them a shot? Like, well, yeah, of course. Like, you're gonna still be here and I'm not gonna, like, of course we're gonna hire them. But yeah, like, ultimately, if they were to come and this is what they want to do and it makes sense, then it would be an honor.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It is really cool to me, especially these days, that you are still honoring these agreements that you have no legal obligation to. Right. That you are still honoring these things to him. And I just think that's so cool.

[Tiffany Weber]

I appreciate you saying that, but the. I mean, not to get like, too insanely deep, but I grew up without my dad in my life and. And Ben kind of, he stepped in as like a mentor to the extreme. There were times they'd be like, just give me your dad's number. I just want to call him and tell him what he's missing. And for someone that grew up without their dad in the home and, like, doesn't have a relationship. To hear words like that, it just. It makes you believe in yourself. And so I owe a lot to him. I know a lot of what I've been able to do is because I've tried and worked at it, but he's given me so many opportunities. Like, my husband and I named our kid after him. Like, her middle name is his middle name. Like, he's just a very important figure in our lives and just a genuine good person. That changed the trajectory of my life. So it's kind of the least I could do, I think.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you thought about what your life would have looked like if you had not joined that firm? What? I mean, like, what's that make you feel like? That's, that's. That's. It's a. It's a different world that you would.

[Tiffany Weber]

Have been living in. I think I probably would have been fine. I probably would have found something that I like to do. Or my husband, who has his own business, like, he. Maybe if I wasn't making a ton of money, he might have convinced me to come work with him. I don't know. To take a job. I took a huge pay cut to take the job. When I left the corporate, small firms.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Can'T pay of mine.

[Tiffany Weber]

No, no. And it was like. I mean, when I say huge, huge pay cut. It was a big risk. People told me I was insane, but if I hadn't done it, I never would have met Ben and I wouldn't have this firm that, like, gives me so much joy most of the time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What I'm talking about really is the element of the. The confidence that he instilled in me.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like, I imagine that's had a successful, significant effect on your ability to achieve success. And so have you thought about what your life would have been like without that element?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes. And I think it would probably have the most to do with them, the risks that I'd be willing to take. I've always been ambitious and hopefully not blind optimism. But with the optimism combined with that, I do think I would have found something meaningful or successful to do, but I would not have been nearly as risky. So to have somebody, like, build you up and tell you that you're good and worthy and you, like, you've got great ideas, it makes you take bigger swings. And I don't think I would have done that without having somebody like him in my corner to build me up to do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's very, very evident that Ben mentally lot to you and I. And I. It's such a rare thing because with partnerships, there's a lot of people that are close with their partners, but there's a lot that they're just a person, you know, like, they become a person to them.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Just a person that's a. Almost like an acquaintance, just a step above. It's just interesting to me for me to see, because we'll have guild members come and talk about their partner. And it's just. It's an interesting thing because almost like they're a stranger. Yeah, exactly. Like they don't know anything about the person. Person. It's really interesting. But Ben, wasn't that to you?

[Tiffany Weber]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And here's what I've told myself, and I know that Ben isn't a significant part of your story, but I'm not going to ask you about Ben again unless you bring Ben up on any podcast again, because it. Ben is a part of your story. Ben is not part of your future, though. But I do want to ask you this. Have you ever thought about what you would say have been if he were standing here today?

[Tiffany Weber]

Not necessarily. I haven't really given thought to, like, the words that I would say, but I would hope that his feeling would be that he's proud of what we've done and that he thinks we're going in a direction. You know, not necessarily did we always see eye to eye on the right way to go about things, but that he would feel that we've done it with integrity, that he'd be proud of how we're serving the clients, how we're treating each other. So that's. That's what I hope he would see. You know, it's one of those. Those weird things that, like, in the last couple years, I've always had, like, vivid dreams or whatever, but anytime I've needed to really hash something out, I have a dream where I'm talking to him about the situation and he's like, responding to me just like we would do when we were in the office. So, you know, I think about that sometimes of, like, how, you know, like, I'm not really like a woo woo person, but it's just a really interesting coincidence. Like when I got pregnant, I'm like, oh, my gosh, what am I gonna do? I, like, some point I'm gonna have to go have this baby. And then he's talking, you know, like we're having a. Have a dream where he's just sitting in the office, like, well, this is what. All we have to do is this and, you know, you're gonna be great, mom. And, you know, so I've thought about, like, how conversations would go, but if he were to be right here, right now, I don't know what I'd say other than just, I hope we're doing proud.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's interesting. So his. It's helped guide your conversation, your decision making, in a way.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's interesting. That's, that's. That's.

[Tiffany Weber]

I like that less so now, but especially at the beginning because there was so much of, like, I felt like I had a lot to prove then specifically to everybody that thought I couldn't do it without him. I don't feel that. That way as much anymore. Like, I feel like I stand on my own two feet and I like the decisions that are being made are my own and I can stand behind them and I'm proud of them. But at first it was very much like, what would he do?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you still have a chip on your shoulder from those early days?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[Tiffany Weber]

Depends on the day.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Tell me more.

[Tiffany Weber]

I think it can be a good thing because I'm used to, like, being doubted and I am not afraid to try to approve people wrong. But it can be a bad thing when, like, it's okay. I can just relax a little bit. Like, I don't. I do not always have to prove something to everybody. I just kind of be steady and, you know, make decisions for the long term. There's nobody that we're trying to show that you can actually do this, that you're smart enough. Like, we're past that. At least I hope we're past that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Where does that the thought of being doubt had come from other than the early days? Are there other moments?

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, I think I do have to go back just a little bit. I graduated college early. I was not super early, but I was 20 when I graduated. So I started working as a drug rep, like, before I turned 21. Like, we're going to the company functions and I can't have a drink with everybody. And it made people look at me a lot differently. Like, what is up here? So I'm used to being like. And I've always been short and, you know, like, everything has been, you know, like just the little at the time scrawny kid or the young one or so it's a little bit of that and it's just something I haven't been able to shake yet.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's why the runts are always the strongest of the. Of the Litter. So that's. It's good to be a runt. Tell me about coffee and headshots.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah, that's been a fun event. We've done it a couple times now. And I've got, you know, my coffee sitting next to me. You know, not usually a Starbucks person, but that was what was convenient. Like, we really like supporting our local coffee shops and we've gotten to know a lot of the owners really well over the years. And so we'll, you know, a lot of our referral business comes from real estate agents and they all have headshots from 25 years ago and they don't look like that anymore. So we found a good way to like, all right, we're going to give the community free coffee if they need an updated headshot. Come on. And it, it just gives us a chance to like to talk to people that we normally don't have the time to talk to.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's such a cool idea. Do you limit what coffee they can get? Because some coffees are like six bucks, eight bucks. Well, the.

[Tiffany Weber]

No, there. We've had a couple people that have come. Like if they come with a truck, then, you know, they'll do a limited menu. But others, it's just been wide open, but it's a, a couple hours. So we just budget for it. Like whatever, whatever they want, they get. And that's fine because the value of us getting to talk to them and then. Then walking away with something that's meaningful and useful to them. Yeah, well, they can have as much coffee as they want.

[Tyson Mutrix]

People love coffee. It's. It's an interesting thing because we send donuts to the school, things like that for the teachers. But the thing that they always talk about is we had a coffee truck show up and that's awesome. And it was, was funny because it was in the middle of the day and I was, I was, we were trying to work all these logistics with them and it was really simple. They just showed up right after drop off and they figure out this schedule for them to all come out at certain times. Yeah, but that's the thing, like they tell me, like, that's the number one thing that they, that they always love.

[Tiffany Weber]

I think it also shows like the effort that you went to. And there's something. The logistics mean a lot to them because it wasn't like, yeah, it's cool to send treats, but you sent a business to them and that stands out, I'm sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. And you do get, there's that local element too that you do get to support them. I think that's cool too, where you. You're. You're kind of tying all those things in together. And it's an incredible marketing tool. It's. It's a great idea. I may try to steal this, but I don't have to hire a photographer to do it.

[Tiffany Weber]

Well, one time we did. We have a guy that used to work for my husband. He. He was more photography than videography, so we hired him to come do the headshots once. So we. We don't always do it ourselves.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's interesting. So Amy has figured out how to do headshots with photos that our employees have sent to us inside of Canva.

[Tiffany Weber]

Cool.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't know how she does it. I'm. Ever teach me. And we're going to do it as like one of the Saturday episodes. But it's. It's really cool. It's. But it was just. It's just something different from outside the box. But it's related somewhat. But that's kind of cool what she's doing.

[Tiffany Weber]

I like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is brides cake Blue Bell ice cream still your favorite?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes, it is.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Tiffany Weber]

How much research did you do?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Just a little bit. So. Yeah. So can you still. Can you find it?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes. So there was like a time period where I couldn't find it for at least a year, but now it's back in stock. They even have like, the miniature sizes. It is my favorite, but nobody else in my family likes it. So, like, I. If I can only get the big ones, I just have to commit that, like, I've got to make sure I finish this in a timely manner. But it's so good. Have you ever had it?

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, I'm vegan now, so I can't.

[Tiffany Weber]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But it. It sounds. Sounds good.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah. I mean, it's like the. The, like almond amoretto cake pieces. It's stupid good. I love anything that tastes like wedding cake, though.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Wedding cake's good.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Tiffany Weber]

You guys want to get married again?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Absolutely. You know, at our wedding, I actually didn't get my food. It was actually. I was saying thank you to everyone and they take. I didn't get to eat my food.

[Tiffany Weber]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It was crazy. The. Your annual checkup, the legal version. Are you still doing that? Do you remember that?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. What is that?

[Tiffany Weber]

So at the time, we have a more focused version of it now. Because at the time when we started doing that. Have you ever seen. What's the guy's name that interviews all the hip hop artists? I'll send you a link. You're really putting me in mind of him because he finds, like, the details that the artists are like, how do you know that? I don't know how you know that. So the level of detail you went to is really admirable here. But at the time we started doing that, we had multiple practice areas. So we were asking, like, have you gone through a separation or divorce recently? When's the last time you've looked at your estate documents? Has anybody in your family had an injury? You know, we're asking them comprehensive stuff. But now that we're focused more on real estate and like, about to pick up our. We've been doing estate planning, just not advertising it. We focus on those things. Okay, so, like, have you refinanced your property recently? Do you have a trust that doesn't own your property? Those are the types of things we're asking.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you. I mean, I don't know when you started it, but I know that you were doing this back in 2017 at least. And I wonder, is this something. An idea that you had brought to the firm or is it okay? Because that's a really cool. You've been doing it for a really long time. Yeah, that's. That. I mean, that's really incredible.

[Tiffany Weber]

I found that that was an easy one to bring up because it was just a PDF, like some of the other ideas I'd had. They were like, I don't know, is that going to cost much? I'm like, I've already made the PDF. It's. It took me 15 minutes on a Saturday night. Like in. You're not paying me for that time. So that was kind of one of my easier ways to try to start introducing things.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It really is a. I think it's a really cool idea. It's something that many people could do. It might be a little bit more applicable to. In. To general practice firms where you could do all those different things, but you could do on easily. With estate planning, there's a lot of things you could do. It's also, I guess any firm could do it. What you could do is do this annual checkup with all your. You could. You could offer it to people on social media, but also past clients. I could do like injury clients. And who knows, it might be a way for. You can give it to a referral partner in case. A referral partner. I mean, maybe they got another car. Oh, yeah. We're the firm that hopefully they do remember us, but maybe not everybody's gonna remember you. So I do think it's an interesting way to kind of bring them back into the fold. It's a cool idea. I saw. I was like, oh, that's. That's really neat.

[Tiffany Weber]

I don't. It's like we've got our email list. We might as well use it for something.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And it's also something that you could market to where like, people talk about the importance of like a checkup with your doctor where you. But you, you make them realize the importance of having like, checkup on leaks. Legal stuff too. So I think that part's pretty important. The last thing I do want to talk to you about is the future of your industry and where you see your firm fitting in it. So have you thought about that? What's that look like?

[Tiffany Weber]

Yes. So North Carolina, I don't want to assume what you're talking about, but real estate closings are going more digital.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know what I'm talking about.

[Tiffany Weber]

Yeah, I thought that maybe was you're going. So North Carolina had passed. We're the first state to do an electronic closing, which a lot of people don't know. But the thing that North Carolina's been doing is that the notary still has to be physically present with the signer. So you're doing everything on a computer, but the notary still is sitting next to you. So it's like we almost went, you know, we almost got it, but didn't quite go far enough. So North Carolina finally got on board with e notary. The rulemaking was supposed to take effect July 1, 2023, and then it got pushed to July 1, 2024. And here we are, rulemaking still not done. But in anticipation of that, all of our team enotary certified. Like, I'm sure it's like this in a lot of other states where attorneys don't have to take the notary course. Same here, except you do have to take the e notary course. We knocked all of that out as soon as we knew it was coming. And we've like, we've got all of the software necessary to be able to do Eclipse. Right now we're just waiting on North Carolina to say go for it. So we're, and I've mentioned this before, like, I don't want to just sit back and let things happen to us. I want to be ready for it and think, I don't want any lag time. So we're ready for it from that aspect. But one thing that I think we haven't quite figured out yet is the changes with The NAR settlement, it's been like all over the news with, you know, just the way that real estate agents get paid going forward. And I think what it's going to lead to is a lot more unrepresented buyers and sellers, which puts a lot more work on the closing attorney. So I think that we have to come up with a way of, all right, how do we provide the services that these people need without becoming de facto real estate agents, but also making money for it? Because it's going to add, you know, 45, 50 hours of work to a real estate closing for an unrepresented person compared to a lot less than that for a represented person. So we haven't quite figured that out. Like, there's some other law firms I've seen where they're, they're offering like concierge services for, for buyers and sellers, but figuring out that line of, like, how far do you go? Like, we're not going to be setting up your inspections for you, but you're going to need help getting under contract, you're going to need help negotiating repairs, etc. And how much of that do we really want to be involved in?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is there a concern that maybe the real estate companies, the national real estate companies would just hire in house attorneys and then they would kind of that concierge service where they were just kind of folded all into that. And then you've got a group of attorneys sitting in, you know, I don't know, Utah or Arizona or Michigan, wherever, and they've just got this massive, you know, group of people that are just doing all these closings around the country maybe.

[Tiffany Weber]

I mean, it's definitely possible, especially in the estates where title companies can do the closings because you'll have a title company owned by the real estate company and then the real estate company also owns the mortgage broker and so on and so forth. We have a little more separation here. And the legislature hasn't shown any indication that they want to change that anytime soon. But I think probably the bigger issue is that like, agents aren't gonna, they don't want to work for free. And this, the situation right now is kind of pushing them into situations where they might have to, or they're just not getting as many clients as they currently are. And we're not, we're not in the best market anyway. So I think if they. What's probably going to happen with that is that you go to a more of a flat rate, piecemeal type of representation where like, you know, a buyer's agent is like, okay, you can pay me me $850 to see this many houses. And then if we get under contract, it goes up to X amount. Or, you know, if you want me to do this, you know, like to at least give buyers a better idea of what they will actually be spending or, you know, sellers as well, but they're just not going to get as much as they currently as they did before the settlement.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Where are the opportunities for the firm in it?

[Tiffany Weber]

I think probably in that stepping into maybe that concierge. Hold your hand through the transaction. All right, you got your inspection report back. What do you do now? Does the seller have to fix everything? You know, if they, if they don't, what can you do? How much money do you ask for helping with negotiation for those parts of the transaction where we never would have been involved before, providing referrals or I mean, I guess we could be the ones setting up their appointments, but it would be a, you know, a non attorney, no customer service support type role doing all of those things. But I mean, it's tough because it wouldn't be cheap.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What does success look like for you over the next three years?

[Tiffany Weber]

So we're opening our third office right now. So success for us would be flagship location in Mooresville, averaging 125 closing a month. 125 closings a month. And then each of our satellite offices, 50 closings a month each. And that would be success for us. An attorney running each of those satellite offices, two of us in Mooresville.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Thanks, Debbie.