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Maximum Lawyer
How Lawyers Can Escape Toxic Work Environments and Thrive in Their Own Practice
01:09:31
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- [00:01]
A
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down.
- [01:01]
B
So what are you waiting for?
- [01:02]
A
To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law.
- [01:20]
B
This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. So Kelly, you've mentioned that after working for toxic law firms in the past, being the CEO of your own firm has been life changing. Can we talk about that?
- [01:39]
C
Yeah, definitely. I think just the difference in environment has been really great. I mean one thing obviously having more freedom and also making, being the one to make more of the decisions and being able to run things the way I want, I guess, but also have more control over the environment has just really been great.
- [02:04]
B
All right. I want to zero in on the toxic firms that you worked for. Not, you know, obviously don't mention their names.
- [02:10]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [02:11]
B
What made them toxic? Because I think identifying that labeling that will help other firms make better decisions when it comes to their firm. So what, what, what made them so toxic?
- [02:21]
C
I think one of the biggest things was definitely the, it was also like we were just expected to do a ton of work, which obviously that's fine. But I think it, it was very much like, oh, you couldn't be seen leaving before a certain, you know, like, don't walk out the door before 7pm Even if you have something going on, even if you got there super early, even if you've, you were just there working on Memorial Day for them, you know, it was so, it was very much that. And Just like not respecting how much I think everyone was doing and also taking on because it was a smaller firm that. Well, the last firm that I was at and a lot of people kept leaving, not just lawyers, but like other positions. So a lot of us were like juggling so many jobs. You know, sometimes I would go to court, not just to handle my normal court appearances, but I'd also have my car filled with things that I had to go like serve the papers, do all this filing and stuff as well. I'd spend hours in court some days and also like lugging that stuff around New York City. And it was never really even acknowledged that we were all doing all of this extra stuff. So I think just like the appreciation and also, I guess to a level it's like the micromanaging of like, just trust us that, you know, I. I'm always going to want to do the best that I can do and probably even more than that, but just give me the space because I know, you know, I'm fine to stay super late when I know I have to get things done. But not every single day of the year is like, oh, I need to be here for 12 hours. Or like, sometimes I have things to do or whatever. So I think just like, more understanding of a work life balance.
- [04:15]
B
That reminds me of a job I used to have where it was as a lawyer. And it was really interesting because me and another guy, we started the exact same time. We started as interns and then we became attorneys with them. And we would get there like 6, 6 37. It was like the latest we would get there. Sometimes we'd get there super early. We would work to like about 6, 6:30. And then we would leave. And then the owner kept sort of getting mad at us because it was like he wanted that face time. And so what we just started doing was, okay, fine, we'll come in at 8:30, we'll work till 7:30. And you're getting less hours from us. So it didn't matter about working hard or not. It was just a matter about that FaceTime.
- [04:54]
C
Yeah, exactly. And sometimes, you know, one of the partners, like usually both of the partners left pretty early. Like, you know, before five.
- [05:03]
B
That's even worse.
- [05:04]
C
But sometimes they wouldn't. So then we'd all just be texting each other. Like, when are they going to leave? Like it's. It's 7, it's 7:30. Like, because it's like you can't leave before them.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah.
- [05:16]
C
So, yeah.
- [05:17]
B
So they would kind of create this environment where you all were just like. I mean, I'm guessing at that point you probably weren't doing a whole lot of work. You're just waiting to leave.
- [05:25]
C
Definitely, for sure. We're like, we already finished our work. You know, we're prepped for tomorrow. We're good to go, but just waiting.
- [05:33]
B
So what have you implemented in your firm to make sure that you don't become that? Because I think it's interesting, a lot of firms, they'll pick up the bad habit and they'll then apply that to their new firm. How do you prevent that from happening?
- [05:44]
C
I think being really mindful of it. And also I think it's, you know, something you have to learn. Because one thing I did like about the firm that I was at is that I, I oversaw a lot of it. Like, I managed a lot of the attorneys and, like, you know, handed out projects and things like that and, you know, managed all the. A lot of, like, tracking things. And I like that because I like having the control. So I think then once I had my own firm, I'm like, okay, like, yes, you can have control of some things, but you can't have control of every single thing. So I think some of it is also just learning, like, okay, you. To learn to be a different way, to have a better result. And for me, I think a big thing of that is learning to let go. Because not everyone's going to do everything the exact way you might do it. And it doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just different.
- [06:36]
B
What are some other things that you thought maybe did work at the old firm, and then when you tried to apply it, or maybe you changed something, maybe you thought it didn't work at the old firm, you tried to change it and make it work at your firm, and it didn't work.
- [06:50]
C
I think probably just some of the, like, operational things, you know, I did try somewhat, I think, to have maybe some systems that they had and things like that. But, you know, one, I'm doing a completely different area of law right now, and also just very different. That was. I was in litigation. Now I'm transactional. So I think just learning that, like, even different tasks and things might require doing different things as well.
- [07:22]
B
What was that transition like? Because you go from, okay, litigation, you're. You're battling each other. That's. That's how I feel. Like I'm just battling all day sometimes and sometimes. And I didn't realize this until Jim Hacking, he had mentioned it to him before. You may not know who Jim Is. But he had said to me, he goes. When he did litigation, he would sometimes leave because he was asking me about it. He's like, do you sometimes when you go home, you feel more combative because you were. You were, you know, battling all day. And I was like. And I never realized that. Yeah, I was. That's. That's actually what happened. Sometimes I would. I would bring that home with me, or there's times where I. I'll be talking to a client where we're battling each other. Sometimes I have to, like, remind myself, okay, we're on the same team. Team here. We're not battling each other. Did you have to get over that when it comes to. When you went from litigation to a transactional practice?
- [08:11]
C
Yeah. Honestly, I feel like that is probably the best, biggest difference between working with litigation and then now, because I do feel like I was just. I mean, also some of this is just that I wasn't really the type of person that loved going to court and, like, doing that every day. But I do feel like I was on edge, like, every single day, like, on high alert, essentially, because you always have to be, you know, ready or, like, ready to handle what's coming next or, like, if, you know, someone didn't show up and then we'd have to go to trial or, you know, whatever was going to happen. So I do feel like I was always on edge, both, like, going to court and then also at work with some of the other attorneys or, you know, like, being competitive or things like that. So that was one of the biggest changes to now. I just feel, like, this much more calm, like, regularly calm, and it's nice. I'm like, oh, wow, I forgot, like, you don't have to be, like, on edge or, like, fight and flight, like, all the time, because you're not just constantly fighting.
- [09:14]
B
Do you miss any of that, though?
- [09:16]
C
Sometimes I do. Like, I definitely miss, you know, because I think also it's the adrenaline of, like, there or all when something good happens and you're really excited about it. Like, it's not exactly the same, I'm for sure, always excited when my clients get their trademarks registered. And, you know, sometimes it's a little more heightened if I've, like, overcome a really difficult refusal. So then that's exciting. But it's still not exactly the same as, like, when you go into court and you're arguing with someone and then the judge is like, you know, you know, goes with you. That's definitely, like, fun. And sometimes even the arguing is fun. I Guess that's why we're lawyers, because that's true. Kind of fun.
- [09:54]
B
Yeah, there's a different. So what made you want to pick up trademark? Like, why go to a transactional practice? Did you have experience with this before?
- [10:05]
C
No. So I definitely was interested in intellectual property. I did take some classes in law school, and those were more of my favorite classes that I took. So it's definitely something that I've always kind of thought about, but I actually just fell into the private firm that I had been at, and I didn't really intend to go into that area of law or stay, but then I just kind of just ended up staying there for years. So then when Covid happened, that's when I switched, because courts started closing. First they cut our salaries, then. Then, like, they started letting us go one at a time because courts were still closed into June of 2020. And then that's when I decided to pick up trademarks instead. And I spent that whole summer, like, learning even more about it than I had, and that's when I started my firm.
- [10:59]
B
So you used that as an opportunity. That's nice.
- [11:03]
C
Yes.
- [11:03]
B
What would you. What advice? Let's say that this were hap to happen today, but you don't have the benefit of, you know, everything shutting down, so you don't have that time. How. What advice would you give to people today that wanted to take on. They wanted to go from like a litigation type practice to something like trademark day to actually learn that area of law and then launch a firm? What advice would you give to them?
- [11:23]
C
I think there's, you know, there's so many people, or at least I've seen so many people and, like, advice that you have to, like, quit and put 247 into building this business. And I think that's fine if you do. And I think for me, obviously, that's what I did. Well, not quit, but, you know, had 247 to do it. But I don't think that needs to be how everyone does it. Like, I think you could definitely spend time, you know, while you're still at a 9 to 5 quote, or, you know, 8 to 7, whatever it is, building a firm and or at least starting to put those pieces into place behind the scenes, you know, learning a different area of law, doing all the research you can. There's so many paid ways to do it, but there's also so many free resources out there to, like, learn things as well. So I think learning that also for me, like, joining Facebook groups have been really helpful. That's the first thing I did before I started, I had joined a trademark attorney Facebook group. And I. The way that I went through, like, years of posts of just people talk, asking all different questions, citing to sources, and then I'd go read the. Whatever they cited, and then I would save all these posts I'd like so much. I went through years of stuff because I was like, I want to know everything, but it was really helpful. And also, I. Not only did I learn about what I wanted to do, but I also learned a lot about operational things, marketing, like, firm questions as well, not just the law. And also I saw how helpful the other attorneys were in the group. And honestly, I think that is probably the number one thing that gave me the courage to do it. Because people used to tell me, mainly my mom, since I went to law school, why don't you start your own firm? And I'm like, no, you're crazy. That's never happening. I'm never doing it. And then 2020, I was like, mom, I'm actually starting my own firm. But that was one of the biggest things, because I was always so scared of, okay, if you're going out on your own, you don't have people to ask questions. Like, you don't have colleagues. You don't have a boss telling you what to do. Like, how do you. How do you know what to do? But then I saw in this group, people were all leaning on each other and, you know, help. So helpful. So that really gave me, like, the courage to be like, okay, I think I could do this. And then if I have questions, there's literally thousands of people in this group that are willing to help. So that was definitely, like, the. The biggest thing.
- [13:52]
B
What has surprised you the most in starting your firm?
- [13:55]
C
Probably the difference in the attorneys on the transactional side compared to the. All the attorneys that I had or not. Well, but a lot of the attorneys that I had known from litigation.
- [14:09]
B
Yeah.
- [14:10]
C
Because I do not think that they ones that I had gone to court with and, you know, knew for years would be as helpful as the ones that I've met. And also as helpful even knowing that, you know, we're essentially competitors.
- [14:28]
B
Why do you think that is? I mean, it can't just be as simple as, you know, we're fighting all day in litigation, so. But it's gotta be something else. Like, what do you think that is?
- [14:36]
C
You know, I've wondered if, you know, lawyers that, like, choose a transaction, you know, transactional route versus a litigation route are like, you know, have different, you know, Traits and things like that. Because obviously litigation, you have to be more, you know, forward facing and, you know, ready to argue. So I, I do think it's maybe a little bit of that, but I'm not sure. Like maybe it's transactional. Or at least to me, transactional seems like it's lower stress. So maybe that plays into it as well. But also I think the environment, because when you're transactional, you're not as day to day seeing the same people in court, even dealing with judges. Like I've. I've had judges scream at me for most of like once I got screamed at by a judge because I walked into court with my winter jacket on. I was like, it was snowing, I was cold. I did not know that this was an offense. So I think, you know, when you're just dealing with those kind of things, every single day in Brooklyn, we had like five judges that would rotate however often. And we knew if we got one of them, like one of the five, she just. You'd get screamed at that day. No matter what, she would scream at every single person on the calendar. So I think just being in that environment I think heightens it. So I think that plays a lot into it.
- [16:04]
B
Yeah, anytime you spend enough time in court, a judge is going to yell at you. And I found that usually it's something that they did wrong and it's not something you did wrong, it's usually something that's going on with them. So I can think of every time that I've been yelled at by a judge, like yelled, yelled at, it's because of their mistake and not something I did. And it's like, it's like a total ego thing for them. They got. They're embarrassed by what they did and so they're taking it out on you. So yeah, I can completely, can. I can relate to that. I want to change gears because you wrote that the running of a law firm doesn't have to be done the quote unquote traditional way. And that includes the branding and marketing. So what do you mean by that?
- [16:47]
C
I think a lot of the, like, I guess when you would look at more traditional firms, things are, do tend to be a certain way. Even if you're like speaking to people that are designing websites or things like that, when they're doing it for law firms, you'll see like a lot of the websites are. A lot of them do share colors. You know, a lot of them are more like neutral colors or maybe blues. And everything about it is just more like Very overly professional and I didn't really want to do that. Also I was starting as a solo firm. I was starting at home, like working in my pajamas. It was just like. And also I, I hated wearing suits to court. So I was very happy to get rid of all mine in 2020. So I think that was one thing. And also I had already been on social media for a few years as actually so I was a part time fitness instructor. So I was doing that for years while I was working at a firm. I was like doing boot camp and spin instructor and I had an Instagram that was for fitness and I was connecting with tons of different fitness entrepreneurs. I'd go to like fitness events and stuff in New York City. So I think also being in that space, it was obviously just a lot more casual. So I kind of wanted to stick with that. So that's why literally like I just renamed my Instagram to Lawyer Kelly one day. I was like, so actually we're pivoting from fitness to law. But I already had so many fitness entrepreneurs following me.
- [18:23]
B
Did that hurt your numbers?
- [18:24]
C
No, it was, it actually was so funny because so many of them, in the years that we, since we initially met, some of them had continued to stick with fitness. Some went into social media, some went into like different marketing things or, you know, branding or whatever, other type of online business. So a lot of them actually ended up becoming my clients or referring me to other people. So, so that also like fitting into that space also led me to be a lot more. I was like, okay, I want to be more approachable to them because I also saw so many of them not doing anything with, with the legal side of their businesses because they were like, well, I'm afraid of lawyers, like lawyers going to yell at me or judge me or whatever. I'm like, no, that's not true. So I wanted to, you know, fit into the, the, like the niche that I kind of had fallen into.
- [19:15]
B
So I, I want to make sure we splash this on the screen for people that are watching on YouTube and the, for people are listening to this, they, they can't see. But your website is really interesting because I want to pull this up. When we were looking through people, potential guests, one of the things that caught my attention was your, your, your marketing when or your website really, because like it's, it's really cool. So people that are watching can actually see on here, but we'll splash it on the screen. But I do think it's, I mean you're talking about, I don't I don't know what color you'd call that. It's not red and it's not pink. It's somewhere in between.
- [19:44]
C
It's pinkish.
- [19:46]
B
Pinkish. And it's, you know, it's a big. It's a picture of you, you know, you're just kind of sitting there. And I think it's. I think it's a really cool website. And instead of bullet points, you use chili peppers, which is really, really cool. I think that's. That's awesome. And so it reminds me of. And I am going to draw a blank on her name. Hogshead. Sally Hogshead. I got it. She wrote the book. And I won't remember the name of the book, but she talked about different is better than better. And I think that that is. It's such an appropriate thing because people, they don't. It's one thing like, they don't hire you because, like, oh, you're the best. No one knows who the best is. But if you're different, sometimes you're perceived as better just because you are different. I think that's really cool. Where did that come from? Like, where did you pick up all that knowledge, though? I wonder how. How were you able to learn that in a way and then capitalize on it?
- [20:38]
C
I think I had also. I had learned a lot about marketing, especially marketing on social media, in the years that I was doing fitness things on the side. That's really where I started, like, posting regularly on social media, getting comfortable with it, and kind of learning all about it there. And also I had friends at the time that I met through fitness that were now doing social media marketing or, you know, coaching or whatever. So just from them, you know, being friends, I had followed all their content. So I think over the years I had just already learned so much about it. So when I started my firm, I was kind of already like, well, I know exactly what I want to do because, you know, I've just. I already had all of that, like, marketing training and stuff from a lot of that.
- [21:25]
B
How do you bridge the gap between the post and making them a client?
- [21:30]
C
I think really just connecting, you know, I think a lot of times, I mean, people will, you know, like, DM me and be like, oh, my God, I love this post. Or, wow, you're so approachable. Like, you make the legal so much more fun or, like, less scary or whatever. So I think that makes it easier for them to either message me or email me. I'm also one thing. I do see a lot of Lawyers saying, like, no DMs or whatever. But a lot of people message me also just. Or replying to my stories about, like, not just legal things, but whatever. But I think just creating, like a more casual, like, inviting environment has led a lot of people to, you know, just chat with me about legal stuff or other things and then, you know, end up booking that way. And I've also had tons of people that, you know, over the years in following me, have started a business or knew someone that did or started chatting with me about my post about, like, oatmeal or something. And then now, like three years later, they're like, okay, now I'm ready to trademark, you know, oatmeal.
- [22:38]
B
That's funny.
- [22:38]
C
It's actually funny because I started posting. This was like maybe two or three years ago I started posting. I don't really love oatmeal, but it's like a healthy breakfast, so you gotta eat it. Kind of. Yeah. So I literally post a picture of my oatmeal and I write like, my stupid oatmeal for my stupid health. And I don't know why, but I've never gotten more engagement on anything that I've ever posted except my oatmeal stories.
- [23:04]
B
Really?
- [23:05]
C
It's like the thing I get the number one messages about.
- [23:09]
B
Is there a certain mix of. Of, like, things you post about? Like, do you have. Do you like. Okay, sometimes I'll do like a little bit about food and like, do you. Do you have, like a mix that you intentionally try to put out?
- [23:20]
C
So for posts themselves, I try to keep it mostly legal related. Sometimes I'll put things about, like, travel or now that I'm living in Nashville, I'll put stuff about that. But for posts, it's definitely like 90 plus percent legal. But my stories are where I show more of, like, my life. So that's where I'll post more about, like, things I'm doing or oatmeal or like, my dog. So. So that's how I think people are. Like, oh, one person wrote a threads post about me yesterday and they were like, she's a swiftie, so you should hire her. And I was like, oh, thank you. So just like, other things that people can connect with me on. And a lot of times that is why they end up hiring me, because they're like, oh, I knew her from this. So I think the stories. I do post some legal stuff on stories now I feel like Instagram engagement is so bad, so it's a little bit different. I feel like I don't post as much legal stuff just cause it won't get watched. But I do try to like post things because it does just make you more relatable.
- [24:26]
B
How do you stay up to speed on the algorithm itself?
- [24:29]
C
I am for sure chronically online, so I just, I always see things. It varies with what app I'm chronically online with, whether it's like Instagram threads or TikTok. But I do stay kind of up to date just from there. And then also having like now so many of my close friends are like also use social media. So sometimes like if I haven't seen something, then I see their post about it and I'm like, okay, let me do that.
- [25:02]
B
I think you may be the first person on, on the podcast to mention threads. And since we started in 2016, I know threads is not that old, but I, I'm surprised. I didn't know people still use threads is that people still use threads.
- [25:12]
C
Threads is actually where I get the most engagement currently. Like now it's far better than TikTok or Instagram for engagement. So Instagram I would say I use just as like, you know, it's easier space to put like, you know, you can put colorful graphics and videos and stuff. But Threads is where I get the most engagement for sure. It's where I've gotten the most new clients from this year.
- [25:38]
B
So this is your show. My naivete when it comes to threads, like does. Does it mix with Facebook and Instagram? Kind of like Facebook and Instagram do. Because like if you post a video on Instagram, it'll also play on Facebook. Does it do all that with threads?
- [25:53]
C
So Threads, I think it depends on people's sales settings sometimes like if I'm. If you're scrolling Instagram, sometimes it will show you things like from people's threads posts, but not always. So I don't really know how that works. It just like sometimes but. But you can go like from my threads, if someone sees my threads profile, they can click on the Instagram button and go see my Instagram.
- [26:18]
B
So I've seen some people put where they'll post like get my free such and such from this website. It's part of their whole funnel. Do you do anything like that? Is it effective?
- [26:29]
C
I have that in my bio. I have a link and one of the things in my link is a free lead magnet. So I think those are good. But I don't really post about them that often. I try to keep most of my posts, especially on threads, not salesy at all. Usually it's unrelated things that people find me from talking about random things or Nashville or something.
- [26:55]
B
Isn't it bizarre how like there's like with social media, sometimes it's just that it's just random things that they will find you about and that that's how they ultimately end up becoming a client. But that's also what makes me so uncomfortable about social media when it comes to a marketing campaign, because a lot of it's unpredictable. Drives me crazy.
- [27:12]
C
Yeah, it's very unpredictable. But that is why I also, I always tell people to be ready to go viral at any point and be like, set up for it. So for me, that means, like having your bio optimized for whatever you do to make it clear for people. Because if you do go viral, you know, a percentage of them will click on your profile and they'll want to read it. And then if you have the link in there, a percentage of those people will click on that. So I have it very clear, like, okay, here's my free thing here, my paid things, whatever. Because I actually, I went viral on TikTok in 2021. Actually, a post about LLC is interesting video about LLC. And that's where I got like, I got like over 10,000 followers, like overnight on TikTok. And I had my funnel set up. So I got like, I think I got like 600 email subscribers and like, people had booked calls and like, I have contract templates as well. So some of them had signed up or purchased some of those, or they were just in the funnel and then later on purchased those. So I just always tell people to like, be ready because, you know, people will go to your bio and like the links and sign up for things. So have that kind of stuff set up in place in case it happens.
- [28:30]
B
It's a good idea. I. That's, that's a. I mean, that's a. A massive influx of communications just overnight. I wonder, do you have like a team that helps manage all the social.
- [28:41]
C
No, I actually, like, that's my favorite part of my business. I'm like, no, no one's doing that. No one's taking it from me.
- [28:48]
B
So how do you do that and then still practice law and get things done?
- [28:53]
C
I think it, you know, I've been like posting now on social media for five years for my business, and then it was probably like three to four years before that as like fitness stuff. So I think for me it's just. So it's much easier once you're doing it for such a long time. It Takes a lot less time to do it. For me, it doesn't really take that much time. And also a lot of my Instagram posts and carousels and stuff like that, a lot of them are templates that I'll go in and change so it's kind of easier. So it doesn't really take me that much time. And also, especially with videos the way that they are now, I find that they're so much quicker. Like a lot of times it's just like the reels that go the most viral currently, probably all of this year, are really like short 5 second b roll videos with text over them really. So you really only need to have a random video of whatever, preferably with you in it or something, and then you just need to come up with the hook for it and then a caption. So now that like that is the case, it's even easier to be on reels because the reels that I used to make and that are my favorite to make are where I talk about pop culture trademarks, like, you know, if Kim Kardashian got her trademark denied or Meghan Markle or whatever. But those videos do take a little bit longer. So now it's just even easier to like get reels out.
- [30:24]
B
So give me the formula then. Let's, let's, let's focus on reels and then we can kind of go into whatever else. But like what's the magic formula for reels? You said you have a template, so.
- [30:34]
C
Well, I have template for my carousel post.
- [30:37]
B
Okay.
- [30:37]
C
Just so that they're all like, let's format the same.
- [30:40]
B
Let's ignore the carousel for a second. Let's just focus on reels for a second. Like what's the formula? Let's. Because I'm guessing you're, you're taking what works and try to replicate it. And it doesn't always probably work, but then you get, you probably get more hits than what you, you know, the average person. So what is the formula?
- [30:58]
C
So now for the most part I do try to just like sometimes I will, you know, I said I'm chronically online, but I don't really scroll reels too much or Instagram too much. But I will sometimes just go on the reels tab and scroll just for a little bit to see like what kind of audios are currently trending. And usually I'll just pick one of those and like add like a 5 to 10 second video depending on whatever the audio is. And, and I also just try to have some videos like that. I'll Cycle through, like, you know. Cause I don't know who takes tons of videos of themselves or some people do, I guess, but I don't really. So I just, you know, every once in a while I'll cycle through the same ones. But really I just put that there and then put text over it on the top. Sometimes it's an idea that I've seen like maybe some, you know, social media manager that I follow posted like, oh, here's a trending audio. Like that's what this week, like I just happened to open Instagram. I saw it. She's like, oh, here's a trending audio. Like, make sure to use this one. And she said like, here's an idea. Like talk about, you know, some. A story or whatever. So then I'll try to come up with some type of hook. Not gonna lie. Now with AI, I do sometimes use chat GPT to help me come up with like more clever hooks or shorter ones sometimes.
- [32:17]
B
Is it good?
- [32:18]
C
It is. So I actually have a custom GPT that I purchased from a copywriter that is designed to. It has. She's like trained it on all like sales and consumer like psychology and stuff like that. So it's for sure better than regular ChatGPT. But it's also all trained on. I have. I give it tons of like, I give it PDFs, so it's fully trained on like my brand voice. Like it has like, you know, 40 pages of my Instagram captions and stuff that I've written. So it knows like my voice. So that's pretty much how I come up with my hooks now. And usually I'll just say like, okay, I'm using this audio and this is kind of like the idea I want. Or can you help, you know, help me come up with some angles based on like, you know, all of these posts that I've posted before to kind of like help repurpose. And that's really what I do. I just like repurpose a lot of my stuff. And sometimes I'm like, I feel boring. Like I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again. But that's what marketing is.
- [33:18]
B
Yeah.
- [33:18]
C
So. And then I also do throw in pop culture things like this. Over the summer Love island was a big thing. And then also the summer I turned pretty the show. So, you know, sometimes I'll. I make my posts about those too because then it spikes engagement a bit. So that helps like relating to the legal stuff.
- [33:39]
B
So that's. I think that's a great idea. When it comes to the. The prompts. Are you basically recycling prompts too? Where you're like, okay, is it like a template where you use it when it comes to the prompt where you'll just fill in certain things, like, for example, the song, maybe? So everything's the same and is it one big prompt? Or is it like, are you prompting one at a time for each of those things?
- [34:00]
C
It really depends. I don't. Like, I do have some prompts that I'll use, but usually it's honestly just random based on, like, what has popped into my head that week or sometimes what I've seen people talking about on threads, which is where I spend more of my time scrolling. Because I will see people saying like, or complaining about something or, you know, saying this happened to them or this person copied them or whatever, and it might spark an idea for me. So usually a lot of it is more like in the moment. And then I'll ask like, okay, can you come up with some, like, angles or like, let's talk about how behavior, psychology and sales and stuff is changing in 2025. Can we come up with some new angles to post? And sometimes you do have to kind of tweak it. It's like, okay, no, that's great, but I want just something that's like one to two sentences. It has to be engaging and things like that. And sometimes I'll just end up writing it myself or using things that I've posted in the past and like, using the same hook. So a lot of it is just like, it is pulling from a bank of, you know, stuff that I've done in the past.
- [35:12]
B
Do you keep the bank somewhere like you like, just. Or just.
- [35:15]
C
I should, but I have. I feel like I have started that so many different times and now I just have all these different PDFs with like, you know, from different seasons. And now, you know, if you are using chat GPT at all, you. You have to every so often start a new chat, otherwise it'll get worse and worse or start like hallucinating. So now I try to, like, start a new one every month and just try to like, I have to feed it back my information.
- [35:42]
B
Oh, that's interesting. So you are. You're having to redo a bunch of the stuff that you've already done?
- [35:47]
C
Some of it, yeah. Cause then I'll notice, like, it's giving me not good things anymore and I'll be like, okay, it's time to start a new chat.
- [35:58]
B
What makes a good hook?
- [35:59]
C
I think it's just Something that is quick and engaging. And I think it also takes a lot of testing. There's plenty of times my posts have flopped, and I think it's just keeping trying different things. Honestly, some of the things I'll do, I'll write them, like, three different ways, and then weeks apart, I'll post all three different ways and kind of see. Or sometimes I'll also ask people, like, I've sent. Well, my best friend, I'm like, you're my social media manager. I'm like, does this sound better or does this sound better? Like, which one's more engaging or which one would you stop your scroll on? So a lot of it is just, like, testing now. There's also trial reels, which are not shown to your followers, but they're shown to, I guess, random people.
- [36:45]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [36:46]
C
So, honestly, I think it's still a lot of testing, but someone recommended this a while ago. So I've been doing it. Basically as soon as I create a reel and, like, you know, I have it in my drafts, I duplicate it, and then I'll post one to my regular feed and one to my trial reels, the same exact thing. So I'm not, like, doing anything different. But it's getting pushed to different audiences, and a lot of them don't. Nothing happens. Nothing goes anywhere. But sometimes I will get new people from the. Those trial reels. Because Instagram's trying to find your audience with it. I guess that's the intent. So I think some areas, it works better than others. So I think law is a little harder for Instagram to, like, gauge who. Who would want to see this? But I'm like, okay, well, it doesn't really take any extra time. It can't hurt. So I'll just. That's my current, like, what I'm doing with my reels.
- [37:44]
B
All right, I'm gonna test you a little bit here. And because I'm just pulling up Apple News, I'm just gonna pull up just randomly. We're gonna try to figure out some. How you would approach. We're gonna assume that these are, like, the top stories. Okay, I'm gonna. I don't know if I want to do that one. So there is. I'm trying to get something that's not political because what was just showing is not the same thing. That's not. That was up there before. But. Okay, so here's one. I don't know if you play with this one, one of the articles, it's from the San Francisco Chronicle. Suddenly San Francisco doesn't have enough mansions, I noticed mansion. So maybe fun. Let's say that's like the number one story, right? That's trending, right? Like, how would you play with that? Like, what would. Like how would you prompt it? Would you go to ChatGPT, like, right away? Or what would you do?
- [38:30]
C
I might try to think about it first, but I might take it to Chat GBT and be like, how can I relate this to. To business owners and trademarks and see if it has anything for me or if it has any ideas?
- [38:44]
B
And would you stick to. Do you try to just do business in general or specifically trademarks?
- [38:51]
C
So I would say probably the majority of the time it's more trademarks, but I do try to do, like, more business in general kind of posts as well, especially just because that is relatable for more people than just those looking for a trademark or also relatable to, like, current and past clients that have already hired me. So, yeah, I would say it's like more trademarks, but some business as well.
- [39:17]
B
Okay, so let's say I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you some more fake hypotheticals. So let's say the articles, you know, suddenly San Francisco doesn't have enough mansions, right? So let's say Chat GPT says that that's causing business owners, less businesses to move to San Francisco because they can't buy a mansion because they don't have enough. Right. So maybe how would you play with that? That's the result that it gives you.
- [39:41]
C
Hmm. I mean, you know, maybe something about, like, when you trade, obviously a better hook than this, but something about the idea, like, when you trademark your brand, you own your brand, it gives you more power, and then you can move anywhere you want so you don't have to go to San Francisco.
- [40:00]
B
I like that. Okay, so would you come up with that prompt and then ask ChatGPT to give you some. To tweak it? Is that how you would do it?
- [40:08]
C
Yeah, like, sometimes I might ask for, like, help me word this a better way, or give me different ways to say this, or even just different tones. Because sometimes it'll. It'll be like, okay, here's an idea. Now do you want a bolder version or a funnier version? And sometimes I'll be like, okay, yeah, sure, show me. Let me see. And then I'll decide. Because sometimes, like, I, you know, sometimes I'll just give it like a video that I have or something and say, like, help me come up with, like, a funny way to relate this to trademarks so, yeah, so sometimes it'll just be like, okay, this one's funny. Do you want more professional? You know, and then you're. You can, like, kind of switch up your content a bit.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah. Okay. So you take. So it gives you the hook. It gives you some funny ways of relating it. And then what do you, like, where are you. We're doing reels. Right. So where are you compiling all this is. Are you doing inside of reels or, like, where. Where are you putting it all? Where are you putting the text onto it? Like, give me the mechanics.
- [41:09]
C
Oh, yeah. So all of. Yes. So everything's in, you know, the chatgpt, like, log, and then I'm just going right into Instagram and putting it in and, you know, typing it over the video and then putting a caption in. Sometimes I do. I do have a lot of captions in my notes app. So some. Because sometimes for a while Instagram was going through this glitch where, like, if you left the Instagram screen, like, if you closed out of it to go back to another app, it would close. So I got into a habit of, like, always putting my captions in my notes app first because I've lost so many now. That glitch is like, it's better. But I still. I'm like, I don't want to test that.
- [41:55]
B
Is that an intentional glitch? So. Because they don't want you to do this stuff in another app and they want you to do it all natively inside of Instagram.
- [42:02]
C
I mean, it definitely could have been.
- [42:04]
B
Yeah.
- [42:05]
C
Who knows? But yeah, so I do have. I probably have like 800 captions in my notes, apparently. I think last year I tried to, like, go and put them in separate folders based on, like, trademarks, contracts, business, whatever. So at some point they were somewhat organized, but. But yeah, so I do try to put that there also. It helps because then some days I'll be like, I don't know what to post, and I'll go on my Notes app and I'll just type like, trademarks, and all my things will come up and I'll be like, oh, that's a good. I'll post about that idea.
- [42:37]
B
That's a cool idea.
- [42:37]
C
So, yeah.
- [42:39]
B
Okay, so you only can choose one social media platform to post on for the rest of your career. Okay, so we are in 2025. Which one are you picking? And why?
- [42:54]
C
Threads, really?
- [42:56]
B
Oh, my gosh, this is crazy. I. Okay, tell me why.
- [43:01]
C
So one thing about threads is.
- [43:06]
B
I.
- [43:06]
C
Think you can get. I think one of the reasons why engagement is so good over there is because. So, you know, if I'm scrolling my feed, I'll see posts from people I follow, but then I'll also see posts. If any of my followers have commented on those posts, it'll bring that person's post there. So anytime. So my posts aren't just going to people that follow me, Anyone that comments on my post, it's going to all of their followers also. So that's why I consistently have the most engagement there.
- [43:40]
B
This is wild. Maybe I'm sleeping on threads. That's really interesting. Are there any tools with AI that you think could be other than ChatGPT, are there other tools that you use that are helpful when it comes to any of your social media?
- [44:00]
C
I don't really use anything else.
- [44:02]
B
Wow.
- [44:03]
C
When it comes to socials, that's.
- [44:05]
B
I mean, that's pretty impressive. Now, is the majority of your marketing dedicated to social or do you, do you focus on other things?
- [44:11]
C
Yeah, I, I do email marketing, but I'm not nearly as consistent with it as I am with social media. But I do have an email list that I try to email once a month. Ish. Yeah, so I do that. I had like, I did have my website optimized as best as I could, I guess, for SEO and things like that. I do have a blog, but I definitely, I used to be fairly consistent on it. Honestly, I think this year I might have posted one or two blog posts. So I do want to get back into that. Podcast is also one, I think, I think this is my 51st podcast.
- [44:50]
B
Wow.
- [44:52]
C
So, yeah, that's definitely one also.
- [44:54]
B
So. All right, that's interesting because we're gonna, we're gonna dig into that a little bit because I have noticed that there are certain set of people that are really focusing on doing podcasts and I get, I sort of get it. Like, like we wanted to have you on. Right. I think because I think you're, you're doing some cool things. But I, when it comes to coming on this show, like how would this show benefit you? Or are you usually going on more consumer facing podcasts?
- [45:26]
C
So usually I'm going on podcasts where the audience is business owners, like small business owners that are typically, usually not lawyers. That way more of them are my ideal client. So yeah, that is probably the majority of my podcast. But I do think also that getting on other podcasts is still beneficial for like, you know, referrals and just really building relationships and stuff. So, yeah, that's where I think other podcasts can be helpful as well.
- [46:00]
B
You'll get a backlink from us too. So that'll be. That'll be helpful. So we'll definitely, you know, be able to send that to your. To your site. And plus we'll. It'll also be in the show notes, so there's that as well. So I think that that's. I think that's helpful. So that's. That's interesting. Can you tie directly leads to all your marketing channels? So are you seeing. Let's just focus on podcasting for a little bit. Can you. Are you actually. Are you able to tie leads and conversions to podcasting?
- [46:28]
C
So. Not always, because. So I do have a form when people schedule my trademark consultations, which is like, how do they hear about me? So some of them do say podcasts, especially this year, actually, I had someone come hire me from. I think it was a podcast that aired in like 2022.
- [46:46]
B
Oh, wow.
- [46:47]
C
And she had just, you know, ended up listening to it now. But some people will say that. But also I can't tie it exactly because some people from the podcast will follow me on Instagram and then at some point in the future hire me. So I'm like, not sure exactly, but definitely some people come directly from the podcast.
- [47:06]
B
All right, so let's test this out. Do you remember your landing page or the. That you use for social media? The what? Like, do you have, like a specific URL you.
- [47:13]
C
Yeah.
- [47:14]
B
Okay, we're going to test this out and see if it leads to anything. So, like, give what that URL is.
- [47:19]
C
I think it's your legal era.com links.
- [47:23]
B
Okay, so forward slash links. L I n K S. Yeah. Okay, so hopefully people like. So if you need a trademark attorney or maybe you have a referral, click on that and submit. I want, I want to test this out to see if you. If you get any. I guess even if you're just listening, you want to test this out, click on it and submit your information. I do want to see because it would be kind of cool if you could find sometimes what people come on and they want the, the best ones don't do it in a salesy manner. They'll find a creative way to offer something to our audience and they'll. Then what will happen is like, you know, they'll get a bunch of leads or whatever. I don't think that's going to happen because this is a bunch of attorneys that are listening about marketing and business stuff. But I do find it interesting the way they do it. So it would be Kind of cool if you were able to get some referrals from this based on that. So because, I mean, we like, we need trademarks. We use. I don't know if you know Joey Vitali, but. Yeah, so Joey, like we, we use him for our trademarks and so there, there are attorneys that need trademarks.
- [48:18]
C
Yeah, yeah, I have a number of attorney clients. And also actually because of social media, I have a lot of attorneys that follow me, like for my social media and I've had calls with tons of them about like their own marketing and stuff.
- [48:34]
B
Yeah, well, let me. Okay, so how would you like the way, like we have not put as much into social media or personal injury as we used to. Just because we were not seeing the. We were not seeing a connection between. We were putting all this effort in. I mean I was spending so much time recording videos and in posting and all that and we were just weren't getting the return on it. It just didn't make sense. So how. And I'm sure that there are some. We just weren't doing it right, I don't know. But what are some ways you would advise like a personal injury attorney to. To do their marketing when it comes to posting? And like, is there a certain platform that you would focus on? And if you say threads, there's no way it's. But maybe it's threads. But what would you. Personal injury, how would you do it?
- [49:18]
C
I would say probably more video, maybe TikTok actually, because I do think for personal injury it would be more video focused because it's obviously like individual consumers versus businesses. Whereas trademarks, you know, obviously is B2B and I think just interesting videos where people would, you know, rack up the engagement on. And that is what I've seen from personal injury attorneys. I do think it's a little different too, as far as like conversions. I do think that B2B is a different type of social media than B2C. So I think, I think all businesses should be on social because I do think a lot of people use it to vet that way. And like, okay, maybe you want to see that like this person, they're real and like. Or even just search like when I'm looking for someone to hire or something. Like a lot of times I do just use Instagram, TikTok, like as search platforms. So I think everyone should be on it regardless of the amount. But I think like, you know, B2B, I would definitely go heavier on the social media marketing.
- [50:34]
B
Have you tested out ever doing your own show for trademarks? Or maybe more business focused. For generally business focused. And then mentioned trademarks, you know, occasionally to target business owners. Have you ever thought about doing that?
- [50:48]
C
No, but I do. So one of my friends has a podcast. She's in HR for small businesses. So she does, like, consulting and helps people with all of that. So her podcast is HR related. But we have a special podcast that the two of us do through her podcast that's just pop culture.
- [51:09]
B
Nice.
- [51:10]
C
So every few months we record episodes because we both watch, like, Bravo and whatever.
- [51:15]
B
So.
- [51:15]
C
But we will talk about it from, like, a legal and HR perspective from, like. But whatever is going on. But that, you know, like, no client is going to come to me because, you know, because it's not about trademarks. Has nothing to do with trademarks. But it is like, our pop culture way of. Like, we have something fun to talk about, too.
- [51:37]
B
Don't sleep on that, because I. I mean, I have. There's a lot of people like Bernard Nomberg. I don't know if you know him. He's an Alabama attorney, and he. He's, like, big into, like, baseball cards. And he's like. He started these, like, Facebook. Facebook groups for, like, baseball cards. Unrelated a lot. But everyone knows him as. I think he does worker's compensation. Right. So in Alabama, like, that's. They all know him for that. And I think it does lead to him getting quite a few cases.
- [52:02]
C
Yeah.
- [52:02]
B
So don't sleep on that necessarily. Just make sure you plant that seed every once in a while that you are a trademark attorney, because it could lead to more cases than what you might think. Or. Yeah, I guess you'll probably call matters, don't you?
- [52:15]
C
Cases.
- [52:16]
B
Yeah, matters. It's like, I think if I were to go from litigation to transactional work, it would be really hard for me not to call it a case.
- [52:23]
C
I still. Yeah, I still call it a case.
- [52:25]
B
Yeah.
- [52:25]
C
Even though.
- [52:26]
B
Yeah, it'd be hard not to. Okay, so if you were to choose, let's say you had to get rid of everything. So you. You got the podcasting part right. You've got the website, you got the social, and you've got the newsletter. If you were to get rid. So we already said you like threads the most, so you have to get rid of everything but one of those. What would you get rid of?
- [52:47]
C
Or what would you keep besides threads? What would I.
- [52:50]
B
No, no, you know, you. Threads is part of it. So. So would you just. Out of all of everything, you can only. What would you. Yeah. What's the only one you would keep Threads.
- [52:58]
A
Threads, yeah.
- [52:59]
B
Wow.
- [53:00]
C
But also, I think one reason I also like Threads is it does give me flexibility to, like, talk about whatever I want. Like, I talk about everything and anything on Threads. I talk a lot about Nashville. I talk about dating. I talk about my family. I talk about anything. And that's where I get so many connections from that end up. Then, you know, turning into clients or referrals.
- [53:26]
B
This is. This is a great segue, because I wanted to ask you about this a little bit more because, I mean, I've heard, like, the best way of approaching posting on any platform is to kind of mix it up a little bit. Like, you have different. Like, think of it like, you know, your platform is, like, four legs on it. And so you. Okay, one of them might be Nashville. One might be dating. One might be trademark, one, maybe food or health or whatever it was. Right. Those are, like the four legs of your. Of your stool or of your table. And so that's your platform. And I wonder, do you approach it that same way? Because I've heard, like, that's the way to do it, because that's the most effective way. Right. People get to know, like, and trust you. Is that why you do it or just because you like to post there? Generally, do you have, like, some strategy as a part of it?
- [54:11]
C
So for Instagram, I have more of a strategy where my, like, content, you know, like, whatever you want to call it, pillars or whatever, would be more like business trademarks, maybe Nashville threads. I don't really have a strategy, honestly. A lot of times I just literally, quite literally, post whatever pops into my head, which I think also is why I like Thread so much. It's just such a more casual platform, and you can connect with people on so many different topics, but that's how you connect with people. So I would say that's also probably where I talk about trademarks the least, but it's where I grow the most. I would say my Instagram this year has been pretty stagnant. You lose followers, you gain whatever. But my threads is the only place that I'm, like, actually growing and meeting new people.
- [55:03]
B
Does that. Maybe to me, and maybe I'm just oversimplifying it, but to me, that indicates that maybe you should be talking about more of those other things on the other platforms.
- [55:12]
C
Yeah, I think that. And that's definitely an idea. So I actually just started because I like to try new coffee shops in Nashville and work from them, because I'm far more productive there than at home.
- [55:27]
B
Sure.
- [55:28]
C
So I've been Making coffee shop videos and posting them on TikTok just because TikTok has always been more of a like, yes, I post about law there, but you can kind of like post other things. For me, Instagram always seemed more like, oh, you have to be more like legal focused. But I did just actually last week I posted my first coffee shop video on my Instagram and a bunch of people messaged me saying, like, oh, they like that. Keep doing that. So I am going to start posting, like more things there too.
- [55:56]
B
I think you're onto something. Yeah, I think I can't wait to see like a year, like, hopefully it's like blown up. You made a massive move from New York to here to Nashville is where we are right now recording. And I wonder why the move and what was. How did that affect business?
- [56:14]
C
Yeah, so I actually wanted to move to Nashville since 2014. I took the bar here in 2016, took the New York bar in 2014 here in 16, thinking that I would move here shortly after. I didn't. I finally got here end of 2023, so it took quite some time.
- [56:33]
B
Get those golden handcuffs on. It's hard to move.
- [56:35]
C
Yeah, I was just like, I don't know if I can do it.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah.
- [56:38]
C
You know, so I finally did it and I just really always liked this city.
- [56:44]
B
It's a beautiful city. I really like it. Yeah, it's a really cool city.
- [56:47]
C
Yeah.
- [56:48]
B
But how'd that affect business, I wonder?
- [56:50]
C
Honestly, it didn't really affect it at all because since it is trademarks, everything's virtual. You know, my clients have already always been all over the country since they connect with me mostly through social media. So it didn't really change it at all. If anything, I do think maybe it helped a little bit because when I was in New York, I wasn't in New York City, I was on Long Island. So I didn't, I guess, like, I wouldn't really be known for like New York City content, you know, but here I am known a little bit for Nashville. And actually ChatGPT has referred me quite a few times.
- [57:26]
B
Really?
- [57:27]
C
People have said, like, oh, they were like searching chatgpt for like a female lawyer, trademark lawyer in Nashville, whatever, and they found me. So I feel like it's helped a bit.
- [57:37]
B
Have you intentionally tried to make your way into chat GPT results or is that just.
- [57:44]
C
No, I have absolutely no clue how it happened. When I saw it the first time, I was like, oh, my God, this is so cool.
- [57:50]
B
So that is interesting. I mean, I am convinced, like, there's practice areas out there that are just ripe for disruption where you would go into certain areas. Like you could. Your whole marketing strategy could be you create a bunch of different website pages on different cities across the country that are the size of Nashville, not New York size, Nashville size and just dominate.
- [58:14]
C
Yeah. And I think people do that for sure. Especially with like Google Ads and stuff. I definitely think people do that.
- [58:23]
B
Do you, do you play with anything like Google Ads?
- [58:25]
C
No, I haven't. I've tried Facebook ads in the past, but I've never done Google Ads.
- [58:31]
B
Did you. I wonder what your success was like when it comes to the Facebook ads.
- [58:35]
C
I never really had any success. I did and any ad person will be like, this is a no, no, don't do this. But I've actually only ever gotten results boosting posts on Instagram. And not like that's where I found like my content has. I've gained new followers who then have sometimes developed into clients. But. And I don't actually haven't done it in a long time because I don't know, I just kind of forgot about it. But I would only ever boost a post that was already doing really well and that kind of worked better. But whenever I've done ads, I've worked with like three or four different ads, like specialists, agencies, whatever. But I. I feel like I've only ever broken. Broken even.
- [59:22]
B
So you brand yourself pretty boldly in a way, and so you'll. You'll say things like don't around and find out. Right. It's not usually what you hear. Not usually. Not what you see. And I wonder is. And I have no problem with it. It doesn't. But I have, I have said cuss words on this show and gotten some text messages about it. And it's not. I mean, I don't mean to offend people and I know you don't either, but. And I don't. So I have no problem with you posting about it. I think it's cool. I actually, I like the edge. Is there anything that you're afraid to post about, though?
- [59:54]
C
Not really. I don't really shy away from posting things or like, you know, saying the F word or whatever because I kind of. My mindset is. Has always been that you're always going to do something to repel some certain people. That's just like how it is. But I do think like standing more, being more of yourself and you know, standing in that is going to also. Yes, it's going to repel some people, but it's also going to attract other people even more to you. So I think, you know, for all the things that, like the people that have said, oh, you shouldn't say that, or you should be more professional, or, you know, whatever, which I've. I've gotten tons of comments. There are so many other people that'll be like, that's the exact reason why I hire you and recommend you.
- [60:46]
B
So well, so it's interesting to me because you'll have people that specifically. Specifically, like, cussing or something, or they'll talk a certain way, but on video they won't. They'll talk another way. And to me, like, that's just being disingenuous. You're not. That's not who you really are. And don't. So don't go judge someone because they're doing it. And that. There's nothing unprofessional about it. Like the. To me, it's unprofessional and disingenuous for you to act a certain way whenever you're off camera. And then when you're on camera, you act another way. And I. So I think that I. I mean, I. Kudos to you for, you know, being yourself. I do wonder about, like, politics, though. Like, are you. I try to be very, like, down the middle and very kind of vanilla when it comes to that, because I. It's like one of those things where, like, it's. You can disagree about one topic. That's what's so crazy about politics these days. Like, one thing, just one. It could be a little thing to you, but to another person, they're done. And you may lose an entire side. Right? An entire side. And I think one. I think that's so unfair. But it's. But I also think it's like, okay, that's dangerous. So I try to be very, very down the middle when it comes to that. Not show politics at all. Do you treat the same way or do you. Same way.
- [61:58]
C
So you're very political, especially on threads.
- [62:01]
B
Yeah.
- [62:02]
C
Which is where I get the most followers.
- [62:04]
B
Yeah.
- [62:04]
C
But, yeah, I would say I'm very political. And I have for sure gotten people saying like, oh, well, now you're losing me as a client, you know, like after an election or something like that. But then I'll have 20 more commenting. Well, you've got me now. So I do think it's. It's that same thing of, like, yeah, you're repelling people, but you're attracting other people even more. And personally, I. As a business owner, I'm very. Or also just as A consumer I do look for, I look to invest my money in, I guess, businesses that are more aligned in what I'm, what I, you know, my values are. And I know a lot of my clients feel that way as well. So, you know, I think a lot of my clients would not have hired me if I was silent on a lot of the things that I'm not silent on.
- [62:54]
B
Do you have like an avatar client, like an ideal client that you're looking for?
- [62:58]
C
Not like specifically really. It is just like any, any business owner that you know, has a brand that they know that they are looking to keep.
- [63:10]
B
Yeah.
- [63:11]
C
Something that they're pursuing as a business versus like a hobby. And yeah, that's really it.
- [63:15]
B
I am very curious if, like, if you were to look at all of your, your entire roster of all clients you've ever had, like, if there's like a common theme as like the type of business they are.
- [63:24]
C
There's a few. Online business is definitely a big portion of them, like online service based business owners. I also have a decent portion of clients in the beauty industry. That kind of just happened because one of my good friends who she was doing like social media marketing and like business coaching, she ended up referring me to like a couple of people and then they were in the beauty industry and then it kind of just like spread. She was actually in Idaho. So like her friends in Idaho that were like in the beauty industry.
- [64:02]
B
Yeah.
- [64:02]
C
So I have like tons of beauty business clients in Idaho, which is just random.
- [64:08]
B
That's kind of cool.
- [64:09]
C
Or like also just that area of the country. So yeah, that kind of just happened also.
- [64:14]
B
So it's my understanding that you also. You created a DIY trademark course.
- [64:17]
C
Yes.
- [64:18]
B
Okay, so what was the inspiration behind that? This is what we're going to wrap up. We're going to talk about this. And so what was the inspiration behind that?
- [64:25]
C
So I've always been very against telling people that they should or could DIY their trademark just because there's so much more that goes into it. Also I always tell people the search that a lawyer does is really like the most important part of the process to, you know, to manage the risk level and also just apply in certain ways, like avoid problems during the process that sometimes you can't fix down the line. And I've also had tons of people come to me that you know, did DIY it or use legal zoom or something. And then and I'm like, we kind of have to start over. So I was always really against it. But I think that people are going to DIY it whether we want them to or not. So I wanted to create kind of a resource that was more of a middle ground to help them DIY it, but actually have, like, my guidance. So, like, I go through everything. I show them how to do an actual, like, real search to, you know, what to look at, how to do the application the right way, how to handle refusals, how to handle everything. And actually, so I launched it a year ago, and if you don't know, it typically takes about a year to get a trademark right now with the trademark office. And this morning I got the DM from one of the girls that purchased last year. My first client that purchased. She finally has her registered trademark. So. That is exciting.
- [65:47]
B
That's awesome. So, yeah, congratulations.
- [65:50]
A
That's really.
- [65:51]
B
That's really cool. Have you thought about shifting the course to make it targeted towards lawyers to teach them how to do it?
- [65:58]
C
No, because I have a very good friend that already does that for lawyers and the course that I took as well. So, yeah, that's fair.
- [66:08]
B
Okay. I. I love.
- [66:09]
C
And I also think hers was really good, so no reason to.
- [66:14]
B
Okay, very good. Who is that?
- [66:16]
C
Sonia Lakhani.
- [66:17]
B
Okay, I know. Okay. Okay, very good.
- [66:18]
C
Okay, I know.
- [66:19]
B
Excellent.
- [66:20]
C
I'm supposed to get dinner with her tonight.
- [66:21]
B
Okay, excellent. You tell Sonia I said hi. That's. That's awesome. Really cool. See? Kudos to you. She should listen. I should reach out and tell her that you. You're protecting her. So that. That's really good.
- [66:31]
A
Yeah.
- [66:32]
C
I would only refer people to her. Best one to do it.
- [66:35]
B
Okay, so here's my last questions about this. Are you worried? Does it worry you at all? Clearly you're not worried, but I wonder if there's any part of you that worries that courses like that plus AI is going to cannibalize your niche.
- [66:51]
C
Yes, for sure. It's definitely always on my mind, especially because I have my trademarks, But I also have my contract templates, which was kind of like a DIY way for people to get contracts without having to pay thousands for a custom contract. But it was more niche, like a guest release template for podcast guests or whatever it is. And I do think those have taken a hit since AI because I do think people are more likely to use AI for their contracts, and I definitely think people are going to use them for their trademarks as well. I do think it's something that, like, I'm thinking about as, like, okay, this is. This is coming. You know, AI is getting smarter and smarter very quickly. I definitely think it's something there. It's also, I think, a reason, though, for having the course versus not having it. Because I still think there are, you know, because there was always going to be people that were going to go to LegalZoom or DIY it. Yeah, that's never going to change. But I think there will still be people that will be like, okay, I could use AI But I still would rather have a lawyer or at least a resource from a lawyer. So I think that that's also kind of one of the reasons why I really wanted the course. Because I, I thought, okay, maybe, you know, who knows, maybe in a year or two, maybe there will be less people hiring me to do a trademark, but maybe there'll be more people purchasing my course and it can kind of like, supplement that way. So that's my hope, at least, that if, you know, services go down, people invest in the course more.
- [68:29]
B
I think that that's smart, and that's, that's why I want to ask you about it, because it is a smart hedge, if that's what you meant. But I mean, even if, even if you did it on accident, it is a smart hedge against that as those other services start to get, the need for them goes down. It's a good hedge. And I think that as us, as lawyers, we have to start kind of thinking that way. Okay, can we hedge our bets? Because we none of us know really what's going to happen in the next 10 years, but if we can start to hedge a little bit, okay, maybe we'll put a little bit of. A little more effort over in this area. We'll be a little more protected in 10 years. Compared to other. Other. Other people.
- [69:04]
C
Yeah, exactly.
- [69:06]
B
Well, thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate it. Really enjoy this. I, I learned a lot about. And I, I'm so surprised by, by the Threads discussion, but thank you so much.
- [69:14]
C
Get on Threads.
- [69:15]
B
Yes. Kelly, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
- [69:17]
C
Yeah, thank you.