Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer – "How to Create an Internship Program That Actually Works with Adam Rossen"
Episode Information:
- Title: Maximum Lawyer
- Host: Tyson Mutrux
- Guest: Adam Rossen
- Episode Title: How to Create an Internship Program That Actually Works with Adam Rossen
- Release Date: February 18, 2025
Introduction
In this insightful episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux welcomes Adam Rossen to discuss the creation and evolution of an effective internship program within a law firm. The conversation delves into the nuances of building a program that not only benefits interns but also serves as a competitive advantage for the firm. Adam shares his experiences and strategies in developing a structured, impactful, and nationally recognized internship initiative.
The Power of an Internship Program
Adam Rossen opens the discussion by highlighting a common oversight among law firms: while many hire interns, few capitalize on making these positions a competitive edge.
Adam Rossen [00:12]: "Every law firm, almost, almost every law firm, they hire interns. And most of them, the vast majority, don't turn that into some sort of competitive advantage."
Tyson Mutrux agrees, emphasizing that many firms overlook the multifaceted potential of an internship program. He reflects on his journey, noting how the program has evolved through creativity and continuous improvement.
Tyson Mutrux [00:46]: "Nobody's ever going to give you permission to do something. And most of us, as lawyers tend, have a scarcity or a fixed mindset of the answer is no."
Evolution of the Internship Program
Initial Stages: Tyson recounts the humble beginnings of his internship program, which started as a simple "come hang out" experience for interns to observe and learn.
Tyson Mutrux [03:09]: "...iteration one was just hang out, just hang out...sit in on client meetings, go to court. It was just version 1.0."
Growth and Structure: Over time, the program transitioned from informal to structured, incorporating a curriculum tailored to criminal justice. By version 5.0, the program includes high school and undergraduate tracks, with a strong emphasis on criminal defense.
Tyson Mutrux [17:43]: "We pair our attorneys up, usually each lawyer gets two or three interns and they're with the interns in their pods from the day to day legal work and watching court and assisting in that."
Curriculum and Educational Components
Academic Integration: The program integrates academic learning with practical experience. Interns engage in book clubs, watch documentaries, and attend guest lectures from organizations like the Innocence Project.
Tyson Mutrux [22:29]: "Last summer we did a book that was written by federal judge, Judge Jed Rakoff. It's called 'Why the Innocent Plead Guilty and the Guilty Go Free.'"
Practical Experience: Interns participate in real case work, including writing legal memos, attending depositions, and observing trials. This blend of theory and practice ensures a comprehensive learning experience.
Adam Rossin [09:43]: "So in your program, is this something where you are accepting people that are pre law too, or are they just like basically rising 2L's and rising 3L's?"
Tyson Mutrux [10:18]: "We have a 12 week program which is for undergrad and law students. Now our internship is unpaid, so it generally attracts... law students who want to defend people."
Engagement and Debate: The curriculum encourages critical thinking and debate on pressing criminal justice issues, fostering a deeper understanding and passion for the field.
Adam Rossin [22:04]: "How do you make sure that you've structured a curriculum that provides the push in the right direction?"
Tyson Mutrux [22:29]: "We have projects, guest speakers, and foster debates on topics like bail reform and prison reform."
Media Attention and Marketing Strategies
Deliberate Promotion: Tyson discusses the strategic efforts to gain media attention for the internship program, transforming it into a nationally recognized initiative.
Tyson Mutrux [53:56]: "It was deliberate... we start partnering more with different statewide and nationwide criminal justice organizations."
Branding and Outreach: The firm invests in professional branding, including a dedicated website and promotional videos featuring interns and notable legal figures.
Adam Rossin [48:07]: "I want to show people that are watching this on YouTube and listening."
Tyson Mutrux [50:03]: "Our revamped webpage is criminaldefenseinternships.com and it includes our promo video."
Community Engagement: The firm collaborates with community organizations, integrating philanthropic efforts into the program to enhance its appeal and societal impact.
Tyson Mutrux [48:25]: "We've partnered with organizations like the Jason Taylor Foundation and In Jacobs Shoes, donating shoes to children in need."
Lessons Learned and Key Takeaways
Attract and Repel: A critical lesson is the importance of attracting the right candidates and repelling those who may not be committed. This ensures a dedicated and passionate intern cohort.
Tyson Mutrux [38:10]: "Attract and repel. Be upfront about the commitment required."
Integrity and Commitment: Implementing measures like personal integrity statements and NDAs helps maintain the program's integrity and commitment level among interns.
Tyson Mutrux [42:14]: "We ask interns to sign an integrity statement to ensure they're fully committed."
Continuous Improvement: Regular feedback and self-reflection allow the program to evolve continually, addressing weaknesses and enhancing strengths.
Tyson Mutrux [64:05]: "If you want it to get better and better, have time for self-reflection and make necessary changes."
Passion Over Credentials: Prioritizing passion and dedication over GPA and prestigious backgrounds ensures that interns are genuinely motivated to excel in criminal defense.
Tyson Mutrux [47:01]: "I'd rather take somebody from a fourth tier law school who is passionate than someone from an Ivy League looking for a resume boost."
Building a Pipeline for Future Employees
Long-term Relationships: The internship program serves as a pipeline for future employees, fostering relationships that encourage former interns to join the firm post-graduation.
Tyson Mutrux [57:38]: "We aim to have interns return to our firm after their residencies, building a family-like environment."
Professional Growth: Former interns who transition into roles within the firm bring fresh perspectives and a deep understanding of the firm's culture and values.
Tyson Mutrux [59:02]: "Having prosecutors who've interned with us understand both sides of the justice system is invaluable."
Advice for Legal Entrepreneurs
Start Small and Scale: Begin with a basic structure and gradually incorporate more elements as the program grows. Flexibility and adaptability are key.
Tyson Mutrux [64:05]: "It doesn't have to be perfect. Start small and evolve."
Leverage Technology: Utilize tools like AI for curating lists and managing applications to streamline the process and enhance efficiency.
Tyson Mutrux [57:15]: "We used AI to help curate our intern list, which was immensely helpful."
Collaborate and Network: Building relationships with other legal professionals and organizations can amplify the program’s reach and effectiveness.
Tyson Mutrux [58:25]: "Partnering with organizations like the Innocence Project expands our network and opportunities."
Maintain Firm Values: Ensure that the internship program aligns with the firm’s core values and mission, fostering a cohesive and purposeful environment.
Tyson Mutrux [71:57]: "Our core values have shaped our firm culture, making it better and more aligned with our mission."
Conclusion
The episode of Maximum Lawyer featuring Adam Rossen provides a comprehensive guide to creating a successful internship program within a law firm. Through deliberate planning, continuous improvement, and a focus on passion and commitment, Tyson and Adam demonstrate how an internship can become a cornerstone of a firm’s competitive advantage. Legal entrepreneurs can draw valuable lessons from their experience, emphasizing the importance of structure, integrity, and community engagement in building impactful internship programs.
Notable Quotes:
- Adam Rossen [00:12]: "Every law firm, almost, almost every law firm, they hire interns. And most of them, the vast majority, don't turn that into some sort of competitive advantage."
- Tyson Mutrux [00:46]: "Nobody's ever going to give you permission to do something. And most of us, as lawyers tend, have a scarcity or a fixed mindset of the answer is no."
- Tyson Mutrux [22:29]: "Last summer we did a book that was written by federal judge, Judge Jed Rakoff. It's called 'Why the Innocent Plead Guilty and the Guilty Go Free.'"
- Adam Rossin [38:10]: "I want to show people that are watching this on YouTube and listening."
For more insights and a visual representation of the internship program, visit criminaldefenseinternships.com.