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- [00:03]
Tyson Mutrix
This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.
- [00:13]
Adam Rossin
Every law firm, almost, almost every law firm, they hire interns. And most of them, the vast majority, don't turn that into some sort of competitive advantage. And somehow you've been able to do that. You've built a program around it, and it's, it's so strong that it's gotten national attention. What do you think that most law firm owners completely miss about the power of an internship program? And, and why do you think that might be costing them big? It's kind of a loaded question, but I think it's, I think it's a, I think it's an important one.
- [00:46]
Tyson Mutrix
So, I mean, they miss everything about it, really. And I can go in kind of piece by piece by piece. But, you know, one of the things that I've learned over the years from you, from Jim, from other mentors, is that when you have an idea, right, it can be a marketing idea that's also a sales idea, that's also a legal idea or production, and you can use it in many different ways and it can evolve. So as we're going to talk about, you know, our, the Ross and Law Firm Summer Criminal justice internship program, it didn't all, it wasn't always like this. And a lot of it was just, you know, one year we think of it one way, then the next year we think of it, hey, how can I make this better? Something like Covid happens and it's just, well, what can I do now? Right? And so it's really just about having an open mind and being creative because nobody's ever going to give you permission to do something. And most of us, as lawyers tend. Typical thing that I know we all talk about all the time, but most, most of us are going to have a scarcity or a fixed mindset of the answer is no. So I'm not that smart. I mean, I'm normal, right? I'm no better than anybody else. But this program has evolved and gotten better just from being willing to say, well, screw it, why can't we do this? Why can't we evolve? And having it and taking time to reflect back and say, what was good, what was bad, and how can I be better and just be a little creative? So, you know, we can kind of go into all that. But I mean, that's the way I would answer that question, Tyson, you know, as a general answer. And then of course, I can go into specifics as far as how our specific program has evolved and what, you know, we're on probably version 5.0 of the internship now and what that's morphing into.
- [02:34]
Adam Rossin
Yeah, I am curious to hear how you got started because it's something that we, we are actually working on. We've been working on this for a while where we've been like, building out this curriculum and all. And it's interesting how big of a thing we've made it and it's not, we've not yet gotten off the ground big time. Like, we, we've, you know, we started with a couple interns last summer that was like part of, like more of an official program, but. And we, we definitely had plans to start it. So I am curious, you said you're like on the fifth iteration or so. So like, where do you, like, how did you initially begin this thing? Did you start with a curriculum?
- [03:09]
Tyson Mutrix
No. No, not at all. Not at all. So look, I'm, you know, I'm a criminal lawyer. My background's criminal law, and I know, Tyson, you were a criminal law way, way back. You know, criminal and PI and in criminal law, even when I was a prosecutor, we. Well, look, before I became a prosecutor, I was a cli, a Certified Legal Intern. So there has always been that component. And in Florida, you know, even 20 years ago, in your second or third year, when you have the accreditation, you can try cases and be a prosecutor, a public defender, and some other areas of law as well, and actually speak on the record. So I had that background being a CLI and then even being a baby prosecutor. Six months in, I got my own intern. And I was like, wow. You know, so I've always had that experience in criminal law. I started my firm at 26 years old in 2008. And very shortly after, maybe the following summer, a friend of a friend was like, hey, can, you know, I need, I have another friend who needs an internship. Can they intern? Sure. Come on. No problem. And back then, you know, iteration one was just hang out, just hang out, just observe, watch, let's talk. You know, sit in on client meetings, go to court. And it's just kind of a one on one type of experience. Now, keep in mind, my firm from 08 to 15 was me and my old partner. We had no staff, so maybe, you know, Maybe we had one or two interns every summer from maybe 2009, 2010 till about 2015, so maybe five to eight total. But that's what it was. It was just version 1.0. Just come hang out. Oh, if you're, you know, is it a college student? Is it a Law student. Well, if you have a law student, if you're a law student, give you some projects here and there. Just very informal. I wouldn't say disorganized, but it was just more, come hang out and let's just see what the day and the weeks bring. And that was it.
- [05:01]
Adam Rossin
Do you think in the early days that you were. It was actually productive for them to be part of it because Zinsang was very structured. But that doesn't mean it wasn't productive.
- [05:11]
Tyson Mutrix
No, I do think it was productive from the sense of, hey, we're holding the briefcase every day. You know, you get behind the scenes of what it's like in a way to be Better Call Saul or to be the Lincoln Lawyer. You know, not very glamorous. Not. It wasn't unprofessional, but it certainly wasn't professional, like a professional or prestigious internship. It was just come hang out. And sometimes those are the best because you do get immersed and you do get a lot of that one on one attention. And look, you know, Manny, Manny Sarajovanich, who is the managing partner of the Rossin Law Firm. I was his high school basketball coach and he was an intern. And he In I think 2009 was the come hangout for the summer. And that's what it was. And you know, I mean, it was great because it was three or four years after I coached him. He's now hanging out with his former basketball coach for the summer. While I think it was the summer before he went to law school. And it's just, you know, it was a great experience because we were super close to begin with. And years later he's running the firm. So in that regard, I mean. And I think in criminal law that's the majority of the internships that I see from my friends in South Florida. It's more of, well, you're down here for spring break, come hang out for a week, you're here for the summer, come hang out for maybe four weeks, three, four weeks over the summer. And that's usually what I see in my industry. So that, that was kind of version one.
- [06:36]
Adam Rossin
You mentioned Better Call Saul and Lincoln Lawyer, which I think both of those have really good elements of things that are true in what we, in what you do and what I used to do. When it comes to criminal defense, I think that there's some things that are over glamorized. I think there's things that they get wrong, but just it's part of having a show and being part of a movie. But when it comes to some of the interns when they come in, like, what their perception of what it's going to be like versus reality. What would you say are some of those that they think it's going to be one thing and it's really another thing?
- [07:10]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I mean, well, they think, look, we have emergencies, we have different things. But look, it's the same thing for doctors. When you watch Grey's Anatomy, you know, not everything is a skyscraper collapses and people are being rushed into the ER and this doctor's having an affair with this doctor. I mean, those things do happen, but it's not as exciting and glamorous. So same kind of thing. Our day to day is very busy and we're constantly moving and shaking, but it's sometimes there's a lot more of shoveling the crap than it is of just the pure glamour and excitement. Those are kind of fewer and far between.
- [07:48]
Adam Rossin
So what I always kind of found interesting about criminal offense and it's like something that's really challenging is we had. So we had a call, I think two days ago from a former client of mine that had been locked up. And I haven't talked to him in probably, I don't know, seven years or so, but he got locked up on something and he needed someone to show up yesterday for a bond hearing, you know, and because he just got picked up and I was telling the receptionist, she's like, like, you know, is. Is that something that is. Is that normal? I said, that's, that's like, that's criminal defense. Like, that's what. That's what criminal defense is like. So did you have. Were the interns surprised by. Of. Of criminal defense?
- [08:29]
Tyson Mutrix
A little bit, Yeah, a little bit. But. But that's the thing. We do a good job of talking to them and explaining, hey, this, this is real and this is fast, you know, boom. Now, a lot of people don't understand how fast paced it is and can be at times, but they, you know, pretty much after one or, you know, one or two days, they get it and they know. But yeah, it's definitely surprising, especially though when you have other experience in transactional work. Right. Or even PI. The pre. Let side is right, is it basically is transactional work. Right. You know. Well, for. For some part of it, it's just slower paced, right? It's slower paced. It's not like the litigation aspect where it's, okay, I got a depot here. We got this, we got that, we got a trial next week. We're prepping. Right. So when they have experienced in. In other areas, especially more slower pace then yeah, it's, it's an adjustment. But I also think a lot of people, you know, between watching and Law and Order and Better Call Saul and all these shows, that's more. People have more of an idea of all law being like that than the real estate transactions, you know, or wills and trusts, I'd say.
- [09:43]
Adam Rossin
So in your program, is this something where you are. Are you accepting people that are pre law too, or are they just like basically rising 2L's and rising 3L's?
- [09:52]
Tyson Mutrix
So now what we do is a lot different. So now we have an official program and this is like I said, like iteration four or five.
- [09:59]
Adam Rossin
Yes. Like what are the requirements then? Like what, like what do you have to be to. To fit into the program?
- [10:04]
Tyson Mutrix
We have, we have basically two different tracks. So track one is high school. We only accept students from American Heritage High School, which is down here in South Florida. It's. I actually teach at the high school now. They have their own pre law track. It's really cool.
- [10:19]
Adam Rossin
In high school.
- [10:20]
Tyson Mutrix
Yes, yes. They have six. The school is amazing. They have six pre professional programs. Pre law, pre med, engineering, business and entrepreneurship, Biomedical engineering. Like they got. It's crazy. And so we set aside three, between two and four spots just for the high schoolers. Last year our high school students had briefed more cases than our law students. It's insane. They're usually state of Florida, moot court and mock trial champs every year. They always do really well at nationals. It's an amazing program that's been going on for about 20 years. So we have that track that is nine weeks just for those students. And then we have a 12 week program which is for undergrad and law students. Now our internship is unpaid, so it generally attracts. For the law students, we're generally attracting, you know, your 1L summer. We did have a 2L summer last year. And she was, she, you know, for her it was not about the money. It was, I want to be a public defender. I want to be here. I don't need a paid thing because this is where I want to be. And we do a pretty good job now of weeding out people who want to get paid, need to get paid, or is looking for this as just a resume builder because we've honed in where. This is a criminal justice internship specifically for people who, you know, I will accept people if they're considering prosecution, but really we, we really want people who want to defend people who want to represent people. You Know, criminal defense. Criminal justice.
- [11:59]
Adam Rossin
Okay, so I have a, I have a really big question because I guarantee other people, People have it. Are you able to get around the pay part of it by. Because they get college credit and high school credit for it. Is that the workaround?
- [12:11]
Tyson Mutrix
So, so they do, yes. You know, and even there's some of the law schools have been able to give credit. And, you know, that was something three, four years ago as we were growing this, we kind of had some internal debates about this. And look, look, my, my, look, this is voluntary. I believe in free will, okay? We're not forcing anybody to be here. I still, maybe this makes me feel old, but I still believe internship is unpaid. A law clerk is paid, you know, and I don't, you know, and I think you shouldn't call a paid job a paid internship. It should be a law clerk. Right. Position or something like that. And the way if, if anybody wants to come at us or have it be a problem, then you're just ruining something that's great for society, for our community and for the students. And so that was a decision that I made. And I'm like, look, you want to come after me, come after me, right? Because, you know, what are we doing here? We're helping the community. We're inspiring the next generation of criminal defense lawyers. And personally, I'm not going to let a potential gray area influence what I believe is part of my passion and my calling, which is to inspire the next group, you know, generation of criminal defense lawyers.
- [13:27]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. And I don't, I don't have any problem with that, to be honest. I will make sure I'm clear about that. I think, and I'm guessing, I'm guessing that your, the program is more, for lack of a better way of putting it, it's. It's more program based, education based as opposed to like work based.
- [13:46]
Tyson Mutrix
Yes, I mean, they do work and there is work, but it is. Yes, it's program based. We have a curriculum, okay? So we, we actually have a real curriculum. And so we weave these things in. And again, look, I'll say it here too, Tyson, because I don't care if anybody has a problem with it, sue me, okay? I don't care. You know, I will fight. I will fight to my grave for this program. I know, I, I know, I know. But, you know, look, and it's like a few of the Florida law schools won't let us go on their OCIs because it's not paid. Okay, Right, then maybe we should, Maybe they should waive tuition for the credits that they're giving them and not make the students pay the tuition for the credits that they're giving them because. Right. That's basically the same thing.
- [14:29]
Adam Rossin
You know, it's interesting. So we came into. And I want to get into the curriculum in a second, so don't dive into that because I definitely want to get into that in a little bit. But so what I find interesting is that whenever I did like they called them externships in law school. I don't know if they called them that for you too. But where we got credit for it, but they were limited to like government jobs for the most part. There were a couple that were like not for profits that we could do, which I found really interesting that the government says, oh yeah, we can get this free labor. But they're really, they're not willing to do that for private institutions. But what we were able to do with. So Quincy, one of our. Actually our second newest attorney, we just hired one last. Another one last week where she. When she was in law school, what we were able to do because she was working like she is a really hard worker. So she actually worked full time through law school, which is incredible. But so she. What we were able to do is work out. We created a curriculum for her. It was specifically for her so that she could actually get paid and she got credit. So she was. It was. And they actually agreed to it. And to their credit they actually agreed to it. I'm drawing a blank on the name of the law school, but they were. And they actually, they agreed to give her credit, which I was like, okay, kudos to you for. Like, not because they said they had never done it before. This is the first time they'd ever done it. I was like, you know, kudos to you for actually having an open mind about it. And so I wonder if though, if there is sort of a window now where we can build some sort of curriculum for. For these universities that will actually get credit for these students. But my question though is as. Why do you think. Why do you think that the government and these not for profits have sort of been able to sh. Horn in where they're the only ones that they're able to get this credit?
- [16:21]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I mean, I think it is one of the big hypocrisies of. Of just the legal industry or the institution of law school. I mean, I think it's. Their argument is going to be because it's not for profit, it's not for financial gain. And you know, they're going to say, well, any work that they do helps us for financial gain, but that's, that's not why we do it at all. And any, it's a tenuous link at best. I think that to me would be their argument. But then again, you know, look, we see how much money the government wastes every day. Look what's going on in the country right now, you know, as we're filming this, right. Every day something comes out with more, you know, millions and billions of just wasted money that governments, local, state and federal can't manage. So why not have it, you know, with private industry? Especially when we're giving. When again, it's not having 15 interns in a sweatshop working. Right. There's a, it's a, you know, our program is, it's a curriculum. We have guest speakers. You know, I'll go into all that with you. And it's more about really inspiring the next generation of criminal defense lawyers, you know, and so when done right, I agree with you, it shouldn't be limited to government. But how many times is the, are the government internships and programs actually done right? You know, but they get, they get a blanket approval. So as you can tell, I'm pretty passionate about it.
- [17:44]
Adam Rossin
No. Yeah. So it's really kind of funny to me is. So I guess I'll. I'll tell a quick story after I say this thing and then I'll. We'll get into the curriculum stuff because I'm really. I've got lots of questions about that. But so I found interesting. Whenever I did my externship, it was at the St. Louis County Prosecutor's office, which I loved it, it was, it was a great place. Bob McCullough was the head. Head guy over there. But like, they, they did a really good job. Like, there's really nice people, but like there wasn't like a, it wasn't like a curriculum. You know, it was just like I show up and I help work on.
- [18:14]
Tyson Mutrix
Cases and here's some files. Go.
- [18:16]
Adam Rossin
Yeah, pretty much what it was. And so there's something called rule. I think it's Rule 13, I think is what it's called. It's called Missouri. It's probably similar to what your certified intern or whatever that was called. But so I did find it interesting that there was no curriculum. It was just like, look at files. Which I thought was cool. I thought it was awesome. Like, oh, I get to look at these criminal cases. It was, it was neat. But it was funny. The first time I did an internship And I did it unpaid. And I got a call and an email from career services, and they were like, hey, you can't do that. Just so you know, and, like, kind of freaked me out. So I didn't do it. I never did it again. I'm like, oh, I didn't know you had. I know you had pay people. Like, that's. That was the. Yeah, you need to. You need to look at this, this, this, and this. And sent me all these regulations, like, okay, all right, well, got it now. Thanks. Thanks for letting me know. Kind of a thing. So I think it's kind of interesting.
- [19:02]
Tyson Mutrix
And look, when. When I was a cli, I mean, I got, you know, I was happy to get school credit for it because it, you know, it was much better than sitting in some 3L classes that I was uninterested in. But I didn't, you know, if I got paid, it would have been great, but I didn't care. Nothing. You know, I wanted the experience. I was like, work. Like. I mean, I tried five cases. I tried five jury trials before I graduated law school.
- [19:25]
Adam Rossin
Oh, my. So we did. So Rule 13 didn't allow things like that, but it did allow me to do, like, you know, like, preliminary hearings and some things like that. Like, some really, like arguing motions to suppress. Like, I was able to do some. Some fun things like that, which were. Which were really cool, but definitely not trials. That was not. That was.
- [19:43]
Tyson Mutrix
If I didn't have my. My CLI experience, I would probably be a personal injury lawyer right now, which could have been great too. But that's the whole reason that I became a prosecutor and ended up working in government services because I loved it so much and because of the internship. So it was something that inspired me to. To work there and to be there and helped me open the door as well. So, you know, I think these internships are amazing.
- [20:07]
Adam Rossin
I agree with you. So, like, I never would have felt comfortable. Like, I felt really comfortable in the courtroom for a variety of reasons. I mean, but it was a big part of. It had to do with that externship where I was able to get in the courtroom and ask, you know, cross examine a police officer. And I was probably awful at it, you know, but I felt like I was king of the world. And it gave me that confidence to really. And it was. It was cool because you got to meet, like, criminal defense attorneys that were in St. Louis. And it was. It was kind of nice where, like, they. They knew that they could easily just waive the pH and they're like, hey, like, hey, you want some experience on this? I was like, yeah, I would love it. So they would, they wouldn't waive it just so we could. I could get some experience on it. And it was, it really, it was. I'm mentioning his name, John Newsham. Just he's a Judge now in St. Louis County. Just, he's. He was a really, really well known DWI attorney and criminal defense attorney in St. Louis. But I remember one time he just like, yeah, he's like, he's like, you're, you know, you're gonna crush me on this, but if you, yeah, if you want some experience, let's do this. And so he. And he was like, so nice. And like, it's, it's. It's a good way to get involved with the local bar too. It's. It's such a great experience. So I think, I think it's awesome.
- [21:16]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. I mean, we lawyers everywhere I've been lawyers love interns. I always say interns are kind of when you pledge a fraternity or sorority, the whole system, in a way, is set up for the pledges. Right. Everybody loves the pledges and gets excited when you have all these things going on. Well, the same thing for us. We love when our interns are there, when we're walking them around the courthouse. The judges love them. They stop court to come up, come up. Sidebar. Let's talk. Where are you guys from? You know, other defense attorneys, prosecutors love them. There's so many people that want to give back, and maybe they just don't know how, but whenever they see an opportunity to stop and, you know, talk to our interns or any. Any interns, they love it. I mean, it's just such an amazing thing. So I think I've always thought it's kind of like that, you know, like fraternities and sororities, in a way. Although we do not haze the interns, we have fun with them.
- [22:05]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. I want to give you this quote, and it's. It's by John Crosby, and it's mentoring is a brain to pick an ear, to listen in, push in the right direction. And the part of this quote I want to focus on is a push in the right direction. How do you make sure that you've structured a curriculum that provides the push in the right direction?
- [22:29]
Tyson Mutrix
So we talk a lot about criminal justice, social justice. So I don't have a caseload. I've been out of legal production for about three years. And so what we do is we pair our attorneys up, you know, Usually each lawyer gets two or three interns and they're with the interns in their pods from the day to day legal work and watching court and assisting in that. The part that I'm very involved in is the curriculum part. So before we start, they have, you know, I don't want to say homework, but they have project. They have a project or two that they have to do. We book club a book and I might add a second book this summer. So last summer we did a book that was written by federal judge, Judge Jed Rakoff. It's called why the Innocent Plead Guilty and the Guilty Go Free. And it's a pretty deep criticism of the federal criminal justice system and the inequities in the federal criminal justice system. So we book club that. We watched some movies and documentaries. We watched last year, we watched a documentary about called Cash for Kids. And it was a scandal about 15, 20 years ago in Pennsylvania. They just got pardoned, right? Or they just got out, right. Of these two federal judges that were basically selling kids to private juvenile prisons. And so we have projects with that. We have guest speakers. You know, we have the Innocence Project come we part of now this new version is we want to expand our reach with some additional statewide and nationwide criminal justice, whether it's bail reform or just prison reform organizations to tell those stories. Because it's pretty impactful when you're hearing from somebody at the Innocence Project, right, And seeing and meeting somebody who spent 10, 20, 30 years in prison for a crime they did not commit and they were exonerated. We talk about the cases that we, that they work on with our lawyers. So it's a lot of that as part of the curriculum that's encompassed together. And it's also part of the interview process. You know, it used to be, okay, you want an internship, cool. You want to go to law school, amazing. Or you don't know what you want to do. It used to be, hey, spend time with us. You'll be immersed in criminal law, and if you don't like it, that's okay. We've helped you check something off the box. Now it's morphed into, we really want people who have a deep passion and focus for this and who are not just curious about this, but who are, you know, intent on going deeper in this in their career. So we've, you know, if you think about, we've niched down in each iteration of it. So I think by attracting people who already have a passion for this, working on the cases, look, we have former clients Come talk to them. We have current judges, former judges that are coming in person and over Zoom that have been very open about specific cases. It's a lot easier when you have the former judges who then can talk about some cases and stuff. We've brought them to rehab facilities and we've focused on drug abuse, mental health issues. So it's been pretty easy to kind of build that and make sure that our interns feel it every day and immerse themselves in it. And there's a lot of, again, a lot of debriefing, a lot of just philosophical conversations. And last year, our interns had many heated debates. You know, we had some that are pure libertarians, like, to the extreme. You know, government should burn down, right? You know, all drugs should be legal. And then we, you know, and just hearing debates between other students saying, well, no, you know, I don't agree with that, and letting them, you know, just cultivating a culture of debate and discussion.
- [26:22]
Adam Rossin
Are these organized debates or are you, like, sort of plan it, or are these things that are just. They're organically developing?
- [26:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Some planned, some organic, some. It's just me kind of coming in and dropping a little bomb and seeing how they take it. You know, sometimes it's me just kind of inciting debate and. And, you know, knowing who's going to say what and what's going to, you know, what's going to. What they're going to passionately fight about. We get passionate debates about sex crimes and date rapes and all those type of things. And I love it.
- [26:54]
Adam Rossin
So do you. Do you. Are all the interns, are they in person or are they remote as well?
- [26:59]
Tyson Mutrix
So they're in person. So we found for us, you know, it's just the absolute best experience for them to be in person. So it's. It's in person in our Fort Lauderdale, which is our main office. But, you know, there's always time for Hybrid as needed. Look, our lawyers are Hybrid, Quartz, Hybrid, so just wherever it is, it is. But it's 78, 80% in person.
- [27:22]
Adam Rossin
And the speakers, what about. Are they. Are they mostly in person? You said some were, some come on.
- [27:28]
Tyson Mutrix
Via Zoom, but mostly. But yeah, I mean, National Innocence Project, they're coming on. On Zoom. Last year we had John Fisher's wife, you know, Judge Lisa Fisher. So she's in upstate New York. She wanted to come down to. To Fort Lauderdale and do it if it coincided with a trip for her. It just didn't. So we had her on Zoom, and she was great. I actually just Saw her a few weeks ago and she's like, oh, I'll be down here this summer. Let's coordinate so I can come in person. It's like, amazing. So lots of different things, but yeah, I mean, when we can, it's much better to do in person.
- [28:00]
Adam Rossin
I love that. Yeah. So is the curriculum, is it all like criminal defense based, or do you mix any of the business into it?
- [28:08]
Tyson Mutrix
We do a little bit of the business because that's what I'm focused on. And I want them to understand, understand how just the business of a law firm works, because I think everybody should. And, you know, that's one of the big things that they don't teach you in law school. So we focus a little bit on it, you know, and one of the. And look, we have students that are very involved in mock trial, right? And I always tell them, like, you could be a mock trial superstar, but the two things you never get, you know, you never get voir dire. Right. But more importantly than voir dire, there's never a real client, whether it's a civil mock trial or a criminal mock trial. Right. You might represent a plaintiff in a civil mock trial, but there's no real plaintiff, Right. There's no real plaintiff that's injured or aggrieved or had a, you know, lost out on millions of dollars in a contract dispute. There's no real defendant. So I love when they sit in on our strategy sessions, our new client consults, and they can see how, whether, you know, yes, it is business, it is sales, but how we're building a relationship with somebody and maybe their family from day one, and they can feel the emotions when they can see a grown man cry in a meeting with us. But, you know, before they've ever hired us and paid us, right? And then we can debrief about, well, what's our worth, what's our value that we're providing, you know, and tell them and explain a little bit of that to them because it's, you know, it's very hard to ask people for money. That's one of the hardest parts of criminal law. Say, wow, you had a terrible situation going on. And yes, now you need to pay me money versus PI a lot easier. It's, oh, I'm going to get your money, no problem. And so being able to see that and just see, look like, you know, now we're a law firm of about 23, 25 people. So I do like to show them how the business works a little bit. You know, when we don't we're an open book. We don't hide things from anybody.
- [30:06]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. So I. That's one of those perception versus reality things with, with injury. Like, I had a long conversation with a client yesterday about how it was. It's an immunity case and how even though the government killed his dad, they have immunity. And it's like, so it's like, you know what I mean? It's one of those things where you have, you have these tough conversations. But I think that that's what's so valuable about what you're doing, because you are right. And what I, what I found to be most really impactful to me whenever I first did criminal defense was the just realizing that these were for the most part everyday people that have made one or two mistakes and they got busted for it. Like, this isn't, this isn't for the most part some lifelong criminal that has been. And there are those types. Or like, like there are the lifelong drug dealers or the people that you can clearly see. I had this federal case once where you could look at the beginning and where he was with the federal case and like, it stair stepped up. Right. They have, there are those. But the vast majority of people are people that they, they messed up. You know, they got a DWI or they had some, they had some prescription drugs because they had some back pain and they borrowed it, or they got it from a friend and they got popped with it because they got pulled over and they, they made the stupid decision of letting the officer search the car even though they had no problem.
- [31:23]
Tyson Mutrix
Somebody who has an anger problem. But they were the victim of parental, you know, whether it was physical or emotional abuse. And they've never gotten help. Right. Especially after Covid. I mean, you know, we are in a major mental health and substance abuse crisis that's always been around, but it's been exasperated. It was seriously exacerbated from COVID And, you know, it's just, I think it's just getting worse and worse. So when people can really see that and understand that. And on the flip side, too, we have a lot of cases where client is charged maybe with. In Florida, we only have three. Well, three main levels of felonies, really.
- [32:03]
Adam Rossin
Four.
- [32:04]
Tyson Mutrix
But they're charged with a second degree felony max of 15 years in prison. But what they really did was a misdemeanor or what they really did was a third degree felony max of five years. They're just overcharged. And that happens a lot too. That we see.
- [32:21]
Adam Rossin
So that's frustrating.
- [32:23]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. You know, and we and we talk a lot about that. Right. And about, well, what should we do? What should the prosecutors do? This is an imperfect system. It's still, I think, the best system in the world. A lot better than some other countries. But how can we make it better? What should we do? So we do have a lot of those academic or philosophical questions, but I like to also, you know, take those moments of me maybe being the teacher or the professor and us having those debates into. Okay, well, now let's look at it real life. And this is Johnny. And this is what Johnny's accused of. And, you know, this is Johnny's family. And, you know. Right. And talk about all those different areas and also be able to say, does it matter if Johnny is factually guilty if the prosecutors can't prove it?
- [33:08]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. So there's all these. Yeah, there's so many. So many dynamics. You know, how do you speak to the family? How do you speak to the client? Do you speak to the prosecutor? Whenever you're trying to. Like, there's. And these are all different things. And, like, understanding that the client might be guilty, but they might have told all of their family that they're innocent, and then having to try to, like, they're trying to work that out in their head. Okay, how do I. I know I need to plead guilty, but I've made all these commitments to my family about, I didn't do this, and that's why they should put this money up. And having those really difficult conversations so them. To be able to witness that is so invaluable.
- [33:53]
Tyson Mutrix
And to see that a lot of times it's. It transcends beyond the actual legal work. So much of criminal law, it's, you know, we.
- [34:00]
Adam Rossin
Yeah, it's not black and white. Like, people think there's a lot of gray. So I do want to. So people can have an idea as to how you sort of structured. I know you've mentioned. You mentioned some of the stuff you do, but is there. Is there like a. For some sort of formal curriculum that you. That you built out? Like, do you have, like, worksheets and do you have, like, today we're working on con law. You know, like, do you. Do you have some sort of formal structure like that?
- [34:25]
Tyson Mutrix
So not quite like that. I mean, we do have the, you know, curriculum, but it's not. There's no syllabus, so to speak. It's, you know, we. We book club, at least one book. We have certain documentaries that we watch debate, discuss. We will have some, you know, projects, but some of it is fluid. So a few years ago, during. And, you know, when George Floyd was murdered by Derek Chauvin, the police officer, that was during COVID And we had 13 virtual interns that summer because it was Covid. And, you know, that was about two iterations ago of the internship program. But I thought about it one day, and I said, you know, we're going to do a project. I'm just going to surprise them. We're going to do a law school final exam. So I told everybody, I said, next Wednesday, we're blocking off from 1 to 5pm okay, block it off. And we show up. And I had basically the case file, and this was before the case was even tried. And I gave them the law that he was indicted on, you know, third degree murder and I think one of the manslaughter counts. I found the autopsy report online, and I said, all right, guys, law school, exam time, clarification question.
- [35:39]
Adam Rossin
Wasn't the autopsy report, Wasn't it excluded or was it a lab? There was something that was exploded.
- [35:44]
Tyson Mutrix
I don't remember, because this was so early on. Yeah, but, yeah, this was. I mean, it happened, I think, Memorial Day weekend. And this must have been around, you know, that summer. So it was way before. Yeah, it was way before the case ever went to court. But I said, all right, I'm going to give you the police reports. I'm going to give you the, you know, the body camera footage. I'm going to give you the medical examiner's report with the tox reports, you know, all whatever public information I can find. And I said, I'm like, you know, you're gonna have four hours to write me a legal memo, a legal brief on why we're going to win. I picked the hard one. I said, we've been tasked to represent him, you know, And I'm like, all right, we, you know, the easy one. I didn't want to give them a choice. I didn't want to give them the easy out of, he's guilty and let's do it. And just like law school, I graded them against each other. And I think the number one, the best grade was a law student. But grades, the second and third best were high schoolers. And it was incredible. And, you know, it was just something that came about. So I thought about it, planned it. The next summer was, you know, Bill Cosby was, you know, going through his case. So I said, all right, let's take that case and let's. Let's turn it into a project. So if there are Current events like that. You know, we've done that in the past, as you know, I've left leeway and wiggle room to do that. And yeah, I mean, you know, so we've had different, different projects and different, you know, things going on more from an academic standpoint. And then of course, with the actual casework, our lawyers love to give them stuff and say, hey, write me a memo on this. You know, go through the discovery on this. Let's debate, let's discuss this. What do you think about this theory of the case? You know. Right. You know, sit in on these depositions with me. And of course, everybody loves trial. So, you know, anytime we're in trial, they're. They're watching trial or a stand your ground hearing. So from, from the aspect, that's the way that the curriculum is. It's a little blended of academic, philosophical, and then also practical.
- [37:43]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [37:43]
Tyson Mutrix
With the actual casework, I'm going to.
- [37:46]
Adam Rossin
In a second, I want to sort of transition into some of the media attention you've gotten out of it, because there's. There, I mean, there's definitely a marketing element to this. So I don't want to skip out on that. But can you kind of bullet point for us the things that, that you think are absolutely necessary to make sure that. That something like this works. So, like, that it's an effective. That it's not only effective for the student, but it's also effective for the firm.
- [38:10]
Tyson Mutrix
So number one, look, attract and repel. Right. Basic tenets of marketing, even. Or what we've learned, even with hiring, is we go through a rigorous interview process. Now, it used to be the come hangout, right. I don't like to use the word babysitting, but it was the come hangout. Now it's not. It's like, look, this is your commitment, this is your summer. We give people one week off and that's it. So there is no, you know, I'm like, look, if you got fourth of July plans, go be a kid, have fun. But you're going to learn. It's an immersive experience. So that's number one. Just being upfront with everybody about saying, look, this is difficult, it's hard. How bad do you want it? Because then you're gonna get more buy in, right. You're gonna get a greater commitment. So I think that's always first thing. And, and of course, even in the interview process explaining, look, this is criminal law. Like, you know, you're going to see things. And we, every year we have people drop out because they might not. Especially with sexual, you know, sexual abuse cases. We ask them up front, look, we handle these. Are you going to be okay working on these? Right. Are you going to be, you know, and not just that, but in other avenues as well. That's definitely number one. And then going through and just talking with them and making sure that they're committed and they know that it's hard work, but it's exciting, it's interesting. We make it fun, you know, as, I mean I'm involved all the time and we just, we get good kids. You know, you attract and repel. So now, you know, we have, we had people in the past who weren't so invested. Yes. And that's why we've kind of niched down. Niched down to where everybody who's with us, us, it's competitive, like they want to be here. And last year we came up, we have an intern of the summer award that we've turned. We have a plaque. So we have a plaque in the firm where they get to live on in the history of the firm. And then they get a plaque, an award. And so again we make it competitive and they fight over it. They want it. So that's helped.
- [40:11]
Adam Rossin
That's awesome. That's a really good idea. Have you ever had to fire an internal?
- [40:16]
Tyson Mutrix
So yes, we have. It's been a few years, but we have and nobody's happy. It's unfortunate, but it's been a few years. And again that might have been in second or third version of the internship. But I think now what we do, we're getting a lot better at it. We had no problems at all the last two years. But also we make everybody sign an integrity statement statement. So one of the things for people to learn, you know, we, we learned a few years ago, we, you know, we open it up in January and we had a lot of people or not a lot, but there's a few people. January and February. Oh yes. I commit. I'm so excited. And then they keep looking for the paid internship. The or the better resume builder. Oh well this is nice but you know, I'm going to keep looking or going for that judicial unpaid internship. Right. And so now going through this process, we tell people, we say, look, you are signing a personal integrity statement. If we offer you in January and February, there's no take backs. You're committing so you are committing that you are stop looking. You are not going to ghost us in May or in April. You know that you are in and you're in. And if you can't handle that, that's okay. No judgment. Just, this is not the right thing for you. We are not, you know, a second fiddle or second choice to anything. And if we are, again, that's okay. Just, you know, we wish you the best and we've had a few people go through the process and push came to shove, said, you know, thank you, I'm gonna withdraw. Perfect. You know, because don't waste our time and don't waste your time and we're okay with again, attract and repel. We're perfectly fine. Actually, I prefer it that way because, you know, a few years ago we'd have people in April. Hey, I can't get in touch with you. Where are you? Are you alive? You know. Oh, I'm sorry, I took something else. Well, I just said no to two other great candidates because we had you slotted in.
- [42:15]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Tyson Mutrix
You know, so for the integrity of the program, we ask people to do that, and we've been doing that the last two years and we haven't had a single problem.
- [42:23]
Adam Rossin
What are some things that people might not know that, that they should have? Like the integrity statement. That's a great idea. So what are some other things like that that people might not think that they should, that they may not know that they need or that they should have or that are a good idea that you can think of that might be beneficial for people to know about?
- [42:43]
Tyson Mutrix
We have our intern sign of confidentiality and a full on NDA for firm, for the firm and specifically regarding the client and what we see. So it's also an NDA regarding, like the firm tech, the firm marketing, you know, all those kind of things. But more than that too, we have conversations, we say, look, you may, you may see your mom's friend, your mom's friend might be one of our clients and we have to talk about those things, you know, and I always tell them, though, I say, look, if you're the type of family that has those dinnertime family conversations, I want you to have those with your parents, with your family. Just no names.
- [43:28]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [43:28]
Tyson Mutrix
But I highly encourage those type of conversations. So that's something that, you know, has evolved. The integrity statement has evolved. Making sure that they know, you know, look, you can take, you get five days off, you get one week off for the summer. Again, be a kid. Like, don't not go on your family trip for fourth of July. Go. But if you are going to be with us for three weeks and then you need two weeks off and then you're going to be with us, and then you need another week off. It's not the program for you. I have friends that will do what I did 15 years ago and just say, yeah, come hang out for three weeks or come hang out with us on winter break for a week in an informal setting, which we do. Just. You can't be a part of our summer internship program.
- [44:12]
Adam Rossin
So in a way, school is. Is somewhat gamified, where, like, you get a score, right? You get a grade. And do you have any way of having that account accountability built in for these interns? I. I'd imagine if it would be kind of tough because they don't get paid. But do you have anything like that built in where it's either gamified or they get some sort of grade or they get reviewed? Anything like that?
- [44:35]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, we did that last year with the award. But that's a good idea, Tyson, because, you know, look, it was pretty apparent who our top two or three were. All our interns were fantastic last summer, and most of the summers they all are. But it was pretty apparent who would win, you know, who was in the running. So I think that's a good way when you have, you know, eight to 10 of them, like we do every summer, to make sure that interns 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are still very engaged. So we don't. But now I have a new thing to add or to think about.
- [45:06]
Adam Rossin
Any correlation between, like, like GPA and how well they do in the. In the program?
- [45:11]
Tyson Mutrix
No, I mean GPA and writing ability. Yes. Look, I. We can't teach writing. I'm not a good. I mean, I'm. I'm an okay writer for, as a person, but I'm not. I've never been a great legal writer, especially compared to lawyers. And we have some, especially the ones with the higher GPAs and, you know, that are brilliant. And so some of those lawyers are like, oh, well, can you help me on this? Can you do. Some of the writers writing, others gravitate more towards the trial prep. So we kind of let them do what they like and what they don't like and steer away from some of the things that they don't like. So we have seen that, yes. But at the same time, some of our best interns have been the ones, especially in criminal law, the scrappier ones, who hustle harder, who maybe don't have so much of the raw, pure intelligence. And it's funny, I was telling my wife yesterday. I was like, my wife's a prosecutor in Palm Beach. Fun fact. She Was also an intern at the firm, but that was version one of the internship. And it's not quite as salacious as it sounds. She was in law school. She's 10 years, nine years younger than me. And our grandparents are best friends or were, you know, they were best friends and they kind of put us. It started off as a, hey, you know, internship, but then it quickly became a little, you know, Jewish. It's called a shirak. And they kind of become the matchmakers. But yes, my wife was a former intern and for a few years after she did not let me have interns. But we've, we've read the funny.
- [46:43]
Adam Rossin
So you had an arranged marriage and you also married one of your.
- [46:48]
Tyson Mutrix
Pretty much.
- [46:49]
Adam Rossin
Pretty much.
- [46:50]
Tyson Mutrix
You know, we give them kind of freedom on the. Oh, but what I was telling her yesterday was I said, look, like we want GPAs, we want good schools, but that's not like I want. More than anything, I want people that want it.
- [47:02]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [47:02]
Tyson Mutrix
You know, I, I'd rather take somebody from a fourth tier law school who, who's on academic probation and this is what they want so bad than somebody, you know, who's at an Ivy League school and just looking at this as a stepping stone or just something to put on their resume.
- [47:19]
Adam Rossin
Yeah, I'll. I'll almost always take passion over gpa. I mean, there's exceptions to that, obviously. But so what I want to do, I want to show people that are watching this on YouTube and that are listening. You can hear it. But I'm going to play your promo video and that way people can get an idea about. I think it's a cool idea. I think it's a really good idea that you're doing with this. So let's show the people that and then I'll ask you some questions after it.
- [47:48]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay.
- [47:49]
Adam Rossin
So I'm going to kind of interject in between some of these, well, things really cool is like a lot of them have like the rlf, they got the polos on. It's in the branding. Yeah, the branding. You got the branding, but you got them like a bunch of pictures in the courtroom, which is awesome. So you got those, those experiences mixed in.
- [48:05]
Tyson Mutrix
And one of the previous pictures is with a federal judge. That's Judge Roy Altman. He was, I think, the second youngest federal district judge ever. I think he was like 36 when he was appointed. I mean, he is an absolute star. I would not be surprised if he is even in the Supreme Court. On the Supreme Court one day.
- [48:25]
Adam Rossin
Wow.
- [48:25]
Tyson Mutrix
And being able to sit there in his courtroom is just. Was an amazing. You know, it's not just state court, it's federal as well.
- [48:31]
Adam Rossin
That's awesome. Really cool.
- [48:33]
Tyson Mutrix
Tyson, can you pause for a second there? So. So for anybody who's watching this on YouTube and even if you're just listening to the podcast, that last picture had Seth Levitt, who is the executive director of the Jason Taylor Foundation. So Jason Taylor is a hall of NFL, hall of Famer, Dolphins player.
- [48:48]
Adam Rossin
This one right here.
- [48:48]
Tyson Mutrix
And he. Yes, yes. And Jason Taylor started his own foundation to give back to South Florida community. And so our interns, I even brought in, brought in Seth to speak when we talk about the community piece of how our firm works with organizations like the Jason Taylor Foundation. Whether we're judging a poetry contest, you know, for inner city at youth, you know, at risk youth, or, you know, for example, we've been partnering with in Jacobs shoes for the last eight years, which now I'm on the board of directors for. It's a local charity. We donate pairs of shoes to children at need all through South Florida. And actually for every referral that we get, this is the interplay of the marketing piece as well. For every referral that we get, we donate a pair of shoes through. In Jacob's shoes. So since 2017, we've donated over a thousand pairs of shoes to our local community. And all that was, was just me looking, you know, thinking about how can we have an impact? How can we gamify it, how can we make it fun? How can we combine doing good, you know, with marketing? Right. And so we have. It's not just law. It's basically everything that the firm stands for, you know, and it's showing them that. So, so even this, that's. That's Seth. And you know, he's the executive director of the Jason Taylor Foundation.
- [50:04]
Adam Rossin
That's really cool. So instead of me playing the. For everybody. Anything else on this video you want me to play?
- [50:09]
Tyson Mutrix
No, I mean, it's basically the. It's. It's, you know, we. We had, we shot it last summer. We had all of our interns from last summer. You know, we had them talk and interplayed some things and you know, and again, that was something that even last summer. And look, it's. It's iterations. So for any lawyers listening to this, you can do this. And it doesn't have to be this from day one. It wasn't this. This is 15 years in the making. Really, though, the last five years. And so last summer I was just like, oh, we have the interns, we have our, our studio in the office. Let's just get some content from them. Let's get some, you know, testimonials. And then I was thinking about it, I said, no, you know, after, after it was all shot, I said, we need to turn this into a full on promo video. And we spent a lot of time and effort in December compiling everything. And I'm like, this is the vision that I have for it. And that even that video went through about 10 different revisions and, and things. And so now we have that official promo video, not just random clips of testimonials.
- [51:08]
Adam Rossin
Did you, did you do the video in house or did you hire someone to do it?
- [51:12]
Tyson Mutrix
We did that in house.
- [51:12]
Adam Rossin
Nice. I mean, you'll do. I mean, it's very, very professional. For those of you that are just listening, I highly check, recommend that you check it out on YouTube. It's really good. And if you're okay with it, we'll put it in the show notes, put a link to it in the show.
- [51:24]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, please do. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, please, please do. And we're actually, we revamped our webpage so the, the URL for the internship is criminaldefenseinternships.com and it's gonna, you know, we have that now and you know, or even whole rebranding of things because our internship page before the branding of it too was more of the come hang out type of thing. And so for the last year or two, I was like, this is not showing what we've evolved to. So anybody can go to criminal. I gotta make sure I have it right. Criminal defense. And of course that will forward to the website link, you know, to the actual webpage. But you can see and it's rebranded, it's a lot more professional. We have the video on there and yeah, I mean, you know, people can see it, but again, anybody can do this. It doesn't have to be criminal law, but as we've niched down, we're able to market it better, we're able to get better quality interns. And being able to come here and talk to you about this as it actually being a thing instead of it just, you know. Yeah, we got like four interns hanging out every summer. It's cool, it's fun. It's our way to give back.
- [52:34]
Adam Rossin
I'm laughing because we got to make sure you got the, the URL right, Because I had, we did. We had this local initiative. It was probably 10 years ago, but it required us to, we were trying to Target college students at Mizzou. And we. We printed out thousands of these. Like, it was on cardstock. Like, we had. We had them made and all that kind of stuff. I. It was. It would look almost like a bro. It's like the size of a brochure, but it was just like, just a one sheet of paper and it had the wrong URL on it. It was. I thought, and I can't remember, it was like something like whatsmycasevalue.com or something like that. We owned one of them was like that. And it was. It was the wrong one. And so we, like, it was. We just had throw them all away. It was like, that's why. So make sure you got.
- [53:20]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, it's so much easier with. With the QR codes now. And we do that now for our printed stuff. Yeah, I was also. I think it was last week. I'm like, man, I'm. I'm going to be talking to Tyson, and we can't just slap a QR code. I'm like, guys, we need to get an actual forwarding, you know, vanity URL to forward it to. I'm like, what are we coming up with?
- [53:37]
Adam Rossin
Smart idea.
- [53:39]
Tyson Mutrix
This was our conversation last week. That's why. That's why I don't have it memorized yet.
- [53:43]
Adam Rossin
That's good.
- [53:44]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. I'm looking at. It's criminal defense internships dot com.
- [53:47]
Adam Rossin
So I want to get into. The reason why I played that video is I want. I want to get an idea as to how. How did the program start to get media attention?
- [53:56]
Tyson Mutrix
So it was deliberate.
- [53:58]
Adam Rossin
Okay. I was hoping you'd say that. So good.
- [54:00]
Tyson Mutrix
Right? It was so, you know, again, over the last. Especially the last year and a half. So, look, this has always been my baby, but I let two of our really great former employees kind of take it over for me, and they did such a good job, and they. They helped ele and do some things a few years ago that I just didn't have the capacity. And then both of them moved on. One of them, you know, is a. I think now she's going to be a 3L at Harvard Law, and she helped us really elevate it into maybe version 3.0. And. But she left. And then the year after, our firm administrator handled it, and our firm admin did a great job. But then she left, and I was like, you know, last summer I was like, I'm taking this back over. This. This is my passion. I need to be in charge of this. So I took it back and I'M like, I'm never gonna let it go. And after doing that again, getting back in, I was like, okay, what else? How can we elevate it again? You know? And what. How can we use this as something that no other criminal defense firm can do, right. Or currently is in a position to do? And I was like, we can start getting some media attention and again, niche it down more to real criminal justice, criminal defense. And then we can start partnering more with different, you know, net, you know, statewide and nationwide orgs, you know, like the Florida Innocence Project, like the National Innocence Project. And, you know, we have a bunch of others that we're really working hard to and building it into a bit of a cycle where in the off season, right. You know, they're with us 12, 13 weeks. I mean, that's a quarter of the year. But in the off season, then it's. It's making sure that we build the firm's name right, because we want to build our influence, our brand. Now, we've grown past the purely direct response phase of our marketing. We're a multimillion dollar law firm. We're not at eight figures yet, but we're trying to get there. And we need to be known on a more than just a, hey, we're on a countywide basis, but we need to be known throughout the state of Florida. Right. As the major power players in criminal defense and nationwide and actually, like, what do we stand for as a firm? Right. It's not money, you know, like. Right. It's social justice, it's criminal justice. It's community. It's helping people. It's our firm motto. You know, we help good people when bad things happen so they can achieve their best future. And it's about, you know, trying to be, again, be unafraid to say, hey, orgs, we're partners in this. And you guys don't really have any private, paid criminal defense firms like us that are doing this and have this internship and let's talk, you know, we need content and speakers and we can write some content for you, maybe get a few backlinks. Right. And, you know, and can we take on some pro bono, you know, cases. Right. And connect or some low bono cases, you know, and different things. Things. So just kind of expanding the possibilities.
- [57:01]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. I haven't heard the, the phrase low bono in a long time, but yeah. What are some specific, you know, strategies or tactics that you think legal entrepreneurs could use to increase the visibility of their internship programs if they, if they decide to have some sort of program.
- [57:16]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, for us, I mean, you know, we used AI to help us kind of curate the list. Right. So that helped so much. Yeah, you know, of course, just being unafraid to put it out there. You know, it's a lot of. It's relationship building. And look, I'm here. I mean, Tyson, if I could talk to you once a week, I would love it. You know, I've been, you know, obviously I'm in the guild. I've been, you know, listening to your podcast probably since day one, but. But it was me emailing you saying, hey, Tyson, like, it's been three, four years since I've been on the show. I got something new that, yes, we're promoting this, but I also think, you know, your listeners, right. Our friends are, you know, this community is going to want to hear the business side of it. Right. And the creation side of it. So I have value. Like, I'm not just here to promote, I'm here to give value. So think of, think it through. How can people give value? Right? We're all about value. Be creative and be unafraid. So it's kind of the same stuff that I'm doing, but you don't have to wait until it's perfect and you can start small. And that's what we've done. And, you know, now, like, we have some internal goals of how many backlinks we want and how many press releases we want. But just start with 1, start with 2. Start with a super local level. You know, go to your public defender. If it's criminal related, go to public, your public defender and say, hey, how can we collaborate? How can we work together? Like, we're not enemies. You know, sometimes some counties and, you know, states, right. The public defenders and the private attorneys are enemies. We don't have to be. Right. Let's build bridges, you know, start that way. Start. Look, we've had judges, we've had criminal judges that we appear in front of every day, refer their personal, you know, friends, children to us to be in our internship, right? Now, usually those we don't say no, they usually get fast tracked.
- [59:03]
Adam Rossin
Yeah, but.
- [59:04]
Tyson Mutrix
Right.
- [59:04]
Adam Rossin
Amazing.
- [59:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Right? But. But what? I mean, that's amazing when we talk about relationships. And look, our interns have also. We held two political fundraisers last summer, one for a judge and one for a state attorney candidate. And they were there with us and they got to see that, too. So just being creative, Think outside the box. Go on, you know, use AI to come up with some different ideas and curate some ways.
- [59:28]
Adam Rossin
Yeah, I think It's a great idea. Will you talk a little bit about how this can be used to build a pipeline for future employees?
- [59:37]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. So we haven't been there yet, but that's on the future. And I will be so happy the day that it happens. So we have a few that, you know, they know, hey, you're coming. You're coming back. You're coming back home, you know, and look, even if it's somebody who ends up being a prosecutor, it's great because now, you know, we have prosecutors that have seen our side. You know, there's a lot of people saying that all judges who handle criminal cases should be a prosecutor and a public defender before they become a judge. Right. To really get both sides. So the people who end up being prosecutors, they like my wife. Like, my wife knows what we do, but she knows firsthand from being an intern and seeing it when she was in law school. And then to have people who we've inspired to be the next generation of public defenders or private defense attorneys is amazing. And again, there's two right now on my radar who, once they get their version of residency at the PD's office, once they get that in, I want nothing more than for them to come back home. And I look at it as coming back home, you know, because we. We are a family environment, and, you know, that is the way we run the firm. So, yeah, I'm so excited for that. And it's going to happen.
- [60:55]
Adam Rossin
I love it. And I can't wait for that to happen for you, too. It's. It's interesting because you'd mentioned stuff about Maxim Lawyer, and it was. What's always just been so amazing about the community is just. It is like this. It's like this crowdsourced, you know, thing, you know, like, we're like. We're all, like, growing together, and that's what's been so kind of magical about it. But that's what's. It's cool that you coming on here and you. You sharing your experiences, because this is. It's. It's a. It's a really brilliant idea that you have that you could have easily just been like, I'm. I'm holding on to this myself, and I'm not telling anyone my secrets. And you were. You were willing to come on. I do appreciate that.
- [61:34]
Tyson Mutrix
If somebody can. Can do the same and do it better than I can learn, too. Right? And, you know, and I've learned exactly. Like, I still remember. I mean, I missed the first, like, the O. OG Max, you know, Law con in, like when you guys had it at the law school, it was, you know. Yeah. I wasn't there for that. And then. But you know, I was at the first one after Covid. The last two.
- [61:57]
Adam Rossin
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [61:58]
Tyson Mutrix
And. Right. And. But I, I. So I think, I think you guys did four. I think I missed the first two. And I was at the last two. But I remember being there and it's probably, probably something, I mean, I probably learned it. It's probably something you said. But I'm sitting there and I'm like, Tyson and Jim are amazing, but they're not here to be gurus. They're just more of the facilitators.
- [62:19]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [62:19]
Tyson Mutrix
And they're just, you know, and I'm like, and I love the fact that I made, I met 20 new people, 50 new people who are, we're all growing together. Exactly. I mean, and you say crowdsource, that's exactly what I would use. And just. It is, you know, look, there's something to be said about those, those programs that do have the guru and those can be good too. But I always thought that was the beauty of Maximum Lawyer is that it really was a true community where everybody kind of felt like we were growing together. And in this more than even growing together, in this together rather than in this, to be a disciple of a guru for money.
- [62:58]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. If I've learned anything in Maximum Lawyer, because I've had, and I've had the very unique ability to be able to talk to a lot of different people, and I am very grateful for that. So I've been able to talk to many CEOs of legal vendors. I've been able to talk to many law firm owners, people that serve law firm owners. And there's no such thing as a guru. They don't. No one knows everything. It is the people that you think know everything, they're crying in their pillow just like everybody else is. You know, and maybe not literally, but they are, they're having their bad days too. They don't have it all figured out. That's been like one of the most eye opening things to me is just like, it's, it's not that. So on the, on the whole theme of lessons, though, what are you, what are some lessons that, that you, you've taken away from, from, you know, starting building, continuing to run and improve these internship programs. What are some key, some key lessons that you could pass on to other, other legal entrepreneurs so they could, they can thrive in their internships?
- [64:06]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I mean, I guess probably A lot of things that I didn't do, which is it is best to have a plan at first and to at least, you know, think about what you want to accomplish out of it. Because for years it was just come hang out, come hang out. But if you don't, that's okay. Realizing that it doesn't have to be perfect, but if you want it to get better and better and you want to do something elite. And I always say, like, I want to be the best. I want, you know, I always want to grow. So there's nothing that we try to half ass in the firm or make, you know, mediocre status quo. We always want to be better. But if you want, if you have that mindset and have that attitude, then have some time for self reflection about it. And you know, when it's over, think it through and say, okay, well, what can I do better? Is this a year round? Is this next year? Is this come, you know, do I want this to be just come hang out. That might be okay for that moment in time. And then you might come to a point where you say, no, okay, I want this to be better. And you know, think, think it through. Ask the interns, hey, you know, now we survey them at the end and we haven't gone. I mean, I briefly reviewed last year's surveys, but probably in March we're going to, my team is going to spend time going through the surveys from last year and saying, okay, what are we changing? What are we, you know, what are we adding? What are we going to take away? What did they love? You know, what did they not like? Right. So that's helped too. And of course, a lot of this is just business stuff too. Just, just do it. If you want to do it, do it. Don't wait till it's perfect again. Mine is 15 years in the making and in a year, two or three, it's going to be better and it's going to be different. We're going to constantly evolve it and change it. So it's just a lot of same stuff. Like there's so many people who, you know, will go to go to Max Lawcon this year. They'll come up, they'll have 30 different ideas and they'll have, you know, paralysis and they won't do anything. And you know, instead of, and I remember me, you know, I mean, and I've been in Masterminds, you know, right on Hot Seats with Tyson, with you and Jim. And, you know, I still remember my first one with Jim.
- [66:14]
Adam Rossin
I feel like Jim picked on you a lot more than I did. That's, that's.
- [66:16]
Tyson Mutrix
He did. And I loved it, though. Look, in that group, we had a very special group. We had two grown men cry, and I'm talking bawling. We won't say anything else. And I didn't. But I was picked on. And I said, guys, this is what I mean. It was five minutes of me fighting, and then I said, you know what? Y'all are right. Give it to me and give it to me hard. And I said, jim, give it to me publicly on stage. And I promise you, you know, this was the, you know, the one in October in St. Louis. And I said, I promise you that in three months when I'm there for the Guild day in Scottsdale in January. So this must have been 2122. I promise you I will have an office manager and I'll have a bookkeeper. Because you're right. I'm running a multimillion dollar firm with no office manager and no bookkeeper. I'm a moron. It's not that I'm dumb. I just, I needed somebody to put me in check and to say, whoa, like, you're smart in some ways and you're dumb in other ways. And. And it was great. And for that 90 days, it was all about, there is no way I'm showing up in Scottsdale, Arizona without an office manager and a bookkeeper. And, you know, and I did, and I was so proud of it. Right. And that's great. And so you need those things sometimes. So a lot of it is just the basic stuff. Like, there is no secret sauce.
- [67:34]
Adam Rossin
No, there really isn't. There's lots of different ways of doing things. That's. That's for sure. It is interesting, you, when you're in a group that's like that small with these masterminds, the last thing you want to do is to show up to the next mastermind or see those people that you've committed to taking some action on and then saying, I didn't do it. Like, you just don't like it's because it's such a painful thing. But so I've got one last question for you before I get to it, though. Tell people the again, and this is more for, I think, the interns where. What's the deadline to apply, how do they apply? And what are you looking for in an intern?
- [68:17]
Tyson Mutrix
So number one thing we're looking for is passion for criminal defense, for representing others. Okay? That, that is the absolute number one thing. Passion, dedication, hard Work. It's just like, like Charlotte said. Who Charlotte Margaret spent her in the entire summer after her senior year of high school. So for you, those of you who watched the video, she's now a freshman at Duke, Duke undergrad. And she spent 12 weeks with us when she could have been partying and enjoying her last freshman, you know, her last summer before college. And she said blue collar work ethic, white collar skill and ability. And that's something that I learned at a very young age, you know, and, and when I saw, because I wasn't in the room when they filmed it, when I saw that clip at first, I mean, I was just like, oh, my God. Like, that speaks to me because that is something I tell everybody. So that's the number one thing we look for, is how bad do you want this? Right? And if you don't, that's okay. There's something better for you somewhere else, and that's number one. You can go to criminaldefenseinternships.com it has that video. It has our webpage. It has all the information, but basically it's, it's, you know, we need transcripts, cover letter, and a customized cover letter. I care most about the COVID letter. Really. You know that, that's really, to me. And it's so funny because these days, Tyson, I don't know what people who, who's teaching people what to write in cover letters, but, oh, my God. What I want to see. Tell me your story. Tell me why you want to be here and tell me what you're going to bring to us. I don't necessarily care about so much about, like, all of your skills and abilities. I want to know why do you want to be here? Why is this your passion and why should I choose you and why you know, over everybody else? So I don't know who's, who's teaching these people to write cover letters because.
- [70:01]
Adam Rossin
I think they're horrific. The writing has been shocking like it is. The looking at a resume and a cover letter that looks like it was sent via text message is, is just astonishing. I'm give a bonus tip to people. This isn't from you. So maybe if you don't, this is what you're looking for, then just, just tell them not to listen to it. But what I find to be the most effective is if you do think you have a skill set that would apply to Adam's firm, talk about how your skill set is going to benefit the firm.
- [70:33]
Tyson Mutrix
Million percent.
- [70:34]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [70:35]
Tyson Mutrix
100.
- [70:35]
Adam Rossin
It's. That's, it's just like. It's a little pro tip. All right, last question.
- [70:39]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, hold on. So it's cover letter, resume, transcript, and writing samples. So those four, but, you know, three of them are just to make sure that you're real, you know, but really, I care. And I read every single cover letter.
- [70:52]
Adam Rossin
Love it. I'm glad you finished that, because I didn't want to. They might be left with a cliffhanger.
- [70:57]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh. The deadline is April 1st, but we do it on a rolling basis. We're doing OCIs. We're doing group interviews now already even. And we're filming this in February, so. So, you know, by the time this airs, like, you. If you hear this, you got to get on it right away.
- [71:11]
Adam Rossin
Yeah. The. The air date's April 8th. So what I'm gonna add. I'm gonna ask Becca. Well, I'm gonna ask Becca to move this up because of that.
- [71:18]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay.
- [71:19]
Adam Rossin
So hopefully.
- [71:20]
Tyson Mutrix
Thank you, Becca.
- [71:22]
Adam Rossin
I'll see if can make sure that we can make that happen. So I'll. I'll do that. But. So last question. And I want to start with a quote. It's by Carl. Carl's. Is it Young or Jung? I don't know how you say it, but I thought it was, but it's with a J. So who looks outside dreams? Who looks inside awakens. So who looks outside dreams? Who looks inside awakens. So I want you to think about how the internship has evolved, and what have you learned about yourself as a leader and as the firm culture?
- [71:57]
Tyson Mutrix
Overall, I've learned so much. I mean, that could be an hour. I'll do my best. I think that's been one of the most amazing parts of my journey. Look, I have a background in leadership as a. You know, I was a high school basketball coach for 10 years. But so what that, you know, like, 2021 was the. My most. Was my hardest year as a. As a person and as a business. That was the year the firm tripled in revenue and went from six to 13 employees. Employees. 2021. And that was the year, you know, when we didn't have an office manager, when we didn't have a bookkeeper, when it was October 2021, when I went up and was so stressed. And it was my bottom line. I made the most money ever that I've ever made that year. And I was the unhappiest I've ever been. And I should have been so happy because we're having this massive growth. The firm tripled in revenue. Know, but I couldn't handle the Stress. I wanted everything to be perfect and it wasn't. You know, and through masterminds, through. Right. Which a lot of times, masterminds, it's just business group therapy. Right. Again, you know, that's, that's what it is. And I learned so, you know, and just. But also being willing to be vulnerable and listen to people and go, yeah, I think you're right. This, I do need, I need to change this about myself or I need to do this. And also, look, 2021 was the year that we started on eos. And by being able to have real core values, you know, we are so much of a better firm and have such a great culture now. And look, our culture's not easy, but our culture is fantastic for the people that fit. It's blue collar work ethic, white collar skill and ability. We work our ass off. But it's. When it's passion based, it becomes fun. You know, we had our quarterly state of the firm two weeks ago and everybody was so into it. And my firm is not an easy place to work. But when you know yourself, when you have core values and you can say, you can attract and repel. Look, we just hired somebody yesterday and I don't do much of the hiring anymore, which is great. But when I come in, I want to come in and give people, you know, what we call the talk. And I say, look, our firm is so amazing in this ways and our firm can be so terrible in these ways or to these type of people. And again, no judgment, but I tell people, I'm like, you know, we do a paid in office workday for all positions. I mean, at least one. And like, if it's anything less than you're driving as you're driving home to your, you know, whoever you're doing a dance in the car, you're calling them and saying, hell yeah, this was amazing. If it's anything less than that, if we offer you, please decline because you will not, you're not going to last 90 days and you're not going to be happy. And I want an environment where everybody is happy with blue collar work ethic, white collar skill and ability. So we've gotten very good at that about telling people all the ways that the wrong person will be unhappy and being unapologetic about that. And that doesn't start unless you know yourself, you know the firm, you know the culture. And that came from a lot of mistakes, a lot of stress, and a lot of, you know, just like, whoa, you know what are right and just being deliberate and intentional through masterminds, coaches, mentors, business programs like eos. So I think what you said is million percent spot on. But look, and it's about saying to yourself, am I vulnerable enough and emotionally intelligent enough to be introspective about that? You know, look, Bill Umansky in Orlando is one of my. Just one of my great friends that I met, actually, through Max Law, you know, and he is one of the most introspective, vulnerable, authentic people I know. And it's just so. Such a breath of fresh air.
- [76:05]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [76:06]
Tyson Mutrix
And I think a lot of us can learn from him. Yeah, I know. I have. I've learned so much from him and from Jim and from you, you know. Yeah. And I still think there's nothing like being in a mastermind room with Jim.
- [76:16]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [76:17]
Tyson Mutrix
You know, I mean, you know, Tyson, you're great, but. But Jim is just different.
- [76:21]
Adam Rossin
He just does. He takes an emotional level to it that he applies to, which is. It's. He's very. He definitely is very introspective, that's for sure.
- [76:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Right.
- [76:30]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [76:30]
Tyson Mutrix
You're going to be in TV years, in a good way.
- [76:32]
Adam Rossin
Yeah.
- [76:32]
Tyson Mutrix
Right. So, yeah, just you have to be vulnerable, and you have to think about it, you know, and remove those barriers if. If you want to grow.
- [76:41]
Adam Rossin
Love it. Thanks, Adam.
- [76:42]
Tyson Mutrix
Appreciate it, Tyson. Thank you so.