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back to maximum lawyer Live. I'm Tyson Mutrix. Today, I've got an interesting one for you because this is from something I'm working on right now for the firm. I, I started something this week that sounds a little bit terrible out loud, so just stay with me. I am deliberately testing out, making our firm's case management system more addictive. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but we've been studying how like, TikTok, Instagram, even du Lingo, how, like, how those different platforms hook people. And what we've done is we've built into the case management system. Now, it's not active for all users yet. It's only being tested out a little bit at the moment, but we built those same mechanics into the case management system. And so we're hoping, and I, I will tell you, I'll just, I'm hoping that it's, it's effective, but I've been very, very careful to, to prompt, in a way, whenever we're building this out and to make it clear that we want this to be done in a healthy way. So if it, in any way, it would harm someone, we don't want that to happen, obviously. So we, yes, we've gamified our system a little bit. We. I've built in literal games into the system. Okay. They're very basic games, but you hit these rewards, you play a game. Right? So it's, it's kind of an interesting thing where you get like this, you're rewarded. And we're going to be, it's going to be becoming more advanced as things go, but it's really kind of interesting. And I wanted to talk about that a little bit versus and, and versus the, the, the principles kind of verses but also in addition to the principles that are used by the social media platforms. And I guess I do think we can do this in a healthy way because there's, there's obviously some tension here. Okay. Addictive, which is not a term usually used when in the same sentence as healthy, but there is a tension between addictive and healthy that we are trying to really balance a little bit. Because kind of the way I'm looking at this is I want the work to be more enjoyable. So if you kind of think about that way like I really want the work to be more enjoyable for people so that they want to keep doing it. That's the idea. Okay, so make work less like work, work more like fun in a way. Okay, so let's go through some of these, some of these tactics, some of these different models that are used by these, these different platforms. The first one I'm talking about, it's the hook model where it's every, every habit forming product runs the same four step loop. It's kind of interesting. You got the trigger action, variable reward and then the investment. So the, and that lo. That loop repeats until that, that sort of, that production I guess becomes automatic. So the response, it's like an automatic response in the feeling, I guess as a way of putting it. So, and that's really like what everything hangs on for all social media. You got that trigger action, the, the reward and then investment it, they make it very clear it's a variable reward. So it's not always the same, same award. It's a, it's a reward, it's a different reward. And then you've got the slot machine in your pocket, right? Your cell phone. That's the variable and variable reward is, it's the whole trick behind everything. And this is from B.F. skinner. So, so it's the, it's called intermittent reinforcement where you don't know what's in the, in the feed until you pull it. Okay. And so the, that uncertainty is what makes checking compulsive. So a big part of it is it's variable. Okay. So every time you open it. And so we've, I've made that screen, the addictive screen is different than the dashboard. So that's one way of, I've made it try to make it a little bit more healthy so people want that more just go to the dashboard, see things, that's fine. But the other, because I, you want more consistency in your dashboard. You don't want it to be variable. The screen, the other screen. Let's just call it the addictive screen for now. The addictive screen. The addictive screen is you don't see the same thing each time. It also has, like, a live feed of things, like, from, like, wins and stuff. It's. You can win prizes, you can win badges, you've got the game, you got your top three for the day. So you got things like that that are. That are built into it automatically. And like I said, we're growing. There's also a quiet button too, which I kind of like, where, like, if you don't want all the noise and you want to be on that screen, you can. You can quiet the noise too. So like I said, we want to make this thing healthy while also making it fun and something that is effective. Okay. Which. This is really interesting. A big part of this is. So I don't know if you all remember this back from, like 2017, but Sean Parker, he admitted that they created this social media validation feedback loop where it's. It. It really exploits the vulnerability of humans. Right? And they understood this. They understood this in the beginning. That's why there's so many people that got kind of angry about this whenever it came out, that they intentionally were making it addictive. But that's why I want to talk about this, because it, it could be an. Could be used in a more healthy manner. So. And there have been. You have to be careful with this because there have been some regrets that they've had since then. Where, like. Because they describe it as like behavioral cocaine. And so there are, There can be some negatives with this. I, I don't want this to be something where it's like people are wanting to check their phones at all times just to see what's going on with work. Like when they're on vacation. I don't want that. And this is interesting because, like, our book comes out this week and founder optional, which is interesting. The major premise of the book is making yourself your. Yourself optional. Like that. That is the main premise is like, you are optional and that there's a section in there where I talk about, you know, a lot of people, they say they take vacations, but they, they're checking their phones just hours into actually getting to their destination. I don't. That's not what I'm wanting here. I don't want that. Maybe we can even build in something like a vacation button where they can't. They can't access it or something. Like, we Might do things like that where, like, sky's the limit for this. It really is. But you have to be really, really careful with this because I really do mean you need to be healthy. You have to, you have to be very conscious about this. And I know that there's some people out there not on our. Not listening to our show, but maybe they listen to other shows that might take it that extra step. And I think that you're, you're, you're, you're playing with a hornet's nest maybe, and I think that could be a problem. So be careful with what you're designing here. So there, there is this thing, though. Here's another part of my thinking. You, Your, Your employees are on. On Instagram, they're on Tic Tac, Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Ticket, Tik Tok, Facebook. They're on all these platforms, right? And they, Those platforms are fighting for their attention. Your employees attention and your attention. The thing is, you can't opt out of this war, all right? Your employees are in it. They are in the war. So you, you have to do what you can to fight that addictiveness yourself. Where you got to get into the fight. That's part of my thinking here too, is like, all right, we're already fighting for the attention. I guarantee your employees are on their phones throughout the day. I guarantee it. If you think that they're not, you are blind as a bat. You are, you are just ignoring the obvious. You are, you are crazy if you think that they're not checking their phones out the day. So we're fighting that too. Okay. We're combating that a little bit too. So we have to get into this fight, and so you have to find a way of doing that. And this is a fun little way that we're testing out. And from what I've played around with, I think it's actually gonna be pretty effective. I think it's gonna be fun because we, we built in things like streaks and all that too. We're like, how many days streak? And so it's. And then you have, you have like two misses. I can't remember. We call them. Actually, they're not called misses, but we call them just. They don't have a name. Two left is what it says where you can, like, let's say you don't do it. You get basically in a mulligan, you get a pass where rare. So you only have two of those a month. So if you miss a day of hitting your streak where you hit your top Three for the day. Then, then basically you, you fail the month is what if you, if you, if you get more of those, let's get more than two. So we, we found a way to kind of keep them in the game when it comes to, and when it comes to finishing their top three. Part of this too is like, we can probably. We've not thought. I've not thought about this part of it. We can probably add like a reward system where you can get into a lottery to win something if you've hit your top three every might, aside from the two that you could miss. So I think that actually might, might be something we'll do. So what I want you to kind of do is take some of the things that we're going to talk about here. Take whatever ideas and try to apply them in whatever way you can. I know that some of you are using your, like a platform that you didn't build. I understand that. But you can, you can do other things where you can use these hooks in other ways and build them in. So here's the, the five hooks that I want to talk about and, and give you some of their guardrails that you can use. Where. These are the things that I want you to steal these hooks. These are the things that social media platforms do. So here's the first hook. It's that, that trigger. It's the, you know, give them a reason to open it. So this is the, the trigger in a nutshell. Give them a reason to open up this tab. I'll call it the tab, because that's what we have in a separate tab. So with the social media, their version is they have these push notifications engineered for fomo. That's what they're engineered for. So they got the red badges. All right. Yeah, the red badges. That's why they, that's why you're reminded by these platforms so often to, oh, you don't get notifications. That's because I've got my, if you're like me, I've got my notifications off. So I don't get the red dots. I've got all those turned off. But I get reminded often about, oh, you know, are you sure you don't want to get notifications? So you have these red, red badges that, oh, someone tagged you or you've got a message or you've. Someone commented on something you commented on. You got all these things right, these notifications. Okay, so that's that trigger. So they got this trigger to bring you back in. Okay. To bring you Back in. So our version, okay, so every, every weekday morning, the system builds each person a short quest list. Okay. So we call it the daily run. It's their, their little quest for the day. And this is, it's built by AI so it, it looks at all their tasks and all the work that needs to be done. It pulls out the. What it thinks is, is. I don't, I don't think we have it really considered the top three, but three really important things that they need to do that day. And it's, it's pulled from their real cue that, that person's real cue. So clients that haven't heard from us, overdue tasks, maybe today's deadlines. And so opening the app answers a question every manager wakes up with or every person, every user wakes up with or employee wakes up with, like, what should I do first? Okay, like that's. Oh, what should I do first? It's right there, there's. It tells them, oh, here's what I do. So here's the guardrail that you can use for it where the trigger it needs to serve the user, not necessarily the metric. Okay, so no manufactured urgency, no red dots for things that don't matter, things like that. So you are, you're building it. The, like the, the day's list is built from actual case needs. So it's not built on like some one. It's not like fake stuff. This is like actual real stuff that they're working on, I guess is what I'm trying to say. So that's the guardrail. So the, it serves that particular user. It also serves the clients as well. So you, you've got a little bit of a guardrail for that as well. There is. So the morning list, it caps so you can have a, you can have it a bigger list if you want. But it, it caps at 10. So what it tries to do is it tries to go with three tries it. But you can actually increase it to 10 if you want. I think that's, we will probably remove that and make it down closer to five, but you can add up to 10 if you want to. But we want it for three. And if you are, if you've cleared your queue, so let's say you have nothing in there. So it says clear queue. That's a, that's an earned day and gives you the day off. So that's not likely to happen. Okay, so, but what it. The reason that's there. So you might think I'm crazy for that. You might think I'm absolutely Nuts. But we're very busy. But I think it gives them something. If you, if someone were to clear the queue, then I'm all for them taking the day off. I am all for it. Now, is this going to be something where you do it every single day? No, no, no, no. That's not what it's going to be. But if people have cleared their queue, like they're actively pushing for that and done deal, I'll give you the day off. That means, that means you are hustling. You are totally hustling. And could some people game this maybe? I don't think that they could. I really don't think that they could. The way we, we've got tracking on everything. Like the great thing about building our own platform is like we can track everything, everything. It's pretty interesting. I have charts on every file. Like I can open the file. I can open a file. Kasha built this for me. I, I can't take credit for this one. This was a Kashif idea. So I can open a file. It's really kind of cool. I'll actually talk about this now. I'm getting off track just slightly, but I can open a file and there is a, a tab that only shows to, to admins and it shows me user activity. So I can tell you every single person that's touched a file. I pulled up one. Now, total actions on the file. So this is all time. And I can do 30 days, last seven days. So I can tell you all actions, all time, the number of actions taken on this file. I can tell you the total time that this page has been open and by who. Okay, last date of activity that there was on it. And so it gives me the names and actually I can, I can open up each user, the activity that they've had on the file, the time that they spent on and everything else. I can tell you the work type that they've done. Have they added a note? Have they created something? Have they opened a document, have they uploaded I mean all the things. Okay. And then I can see like daily activity. I mean, I'm just giving you just some of the Cliff Notes really. But it's so we can track everything. So it's for someone to game it. The, to kind of close the loop here for them to game. It'd be really hard without us knowing. They. They'd have to like be cheating in some way, which is like checking off things without actually having done them, which good luck with that. But we have good people and I don't Expect that. So, so. And we do have our, our employees do listen to this show. So they, it's one of those things where they'll know, I'll know, and they'll know. So. And I trust them. So. All right, let's get to the second hook, though. So first hook, trigger. Okay? First hook, trigger, second hook. These are things I've already kind of mentioned, but I'm, I'm going through them in more detail. Variable rewards. Okay? But these need to be from real work. Again, this is all. This all needs to stem from real world real work. So here's the social media version. So they've got this algorithm. Algorithm. Algorithmic feed. That's hard to say. A feed that's based on an algorithm. All right. Is what it is. You never know what's next. So you keep pulling that lever, you keep slide updating, updating and updating, or you keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, right? You, you don't know what's in it. Okay. And it's like, it's kind of feeding it because it's different. Like, you can't, like you can't open any of the feeds and you get the same feed. You can't. It's different every single time. That's the whole idea. So our version of this, a little different, little healthier. It's got this week's wins. Okay. It's got a little panel down below, like a feedback. And when someone sends a demand, gets an offer in a case, whether they, they settle a case, if they've earned a badge, because you can earn bads in different way. Badges in different ways. A, A card will appear that it shows up automatically. Okay. And so it's not a post. Okay? You can actually, you can emoji it. Oh, give a heart or thumbs up, whatever it may be. So you can, you can definitely emoji it, which is kind of nice. But there's no post. The work itself is what generates the surprise. Okay? So instead of selling posted the work itself, the people, the, the work that people are doing, they don't have to go brag on themselves, which is kind of what social media is, is People mostly bragging on themselves is a little bit different where the, the system is bragging on the employee for the work that they're doing. Okay? So you find out, you open the app or you open up the tag the tab, I mean, and you find out, you know, hey, oh my gosh, this teammate sent a four million dollar demand, right? Heck yeah, dude. That's awesome. So you, you've got these things built into it. So the hook is number two. Oh. It's kind of like if you think about. Oh, let me get to the guardrail. I almost skipped something. I want to make sure I get to the guardrail, but I do want to make sure we get these last three in because I've taken my time on the first two. I want you to get through the. The last three. But the. So the. The guardrail, again, the variability, it comes from. From reality, not some. Not from some algorithm. Okay. That's the difference. So we're not. We're not trying to create some sort of engagement optimization from this, and we're not trying to rank what people see. So that's a key difference. Okay. So, like, this is different from a slot machine. Slot machine. You pull it, something randomly pops up. Ours is a little more predictable. I will say that. So it is probably less addictive because of that. But here's the thing. I can play with it, test it out, see how it works, and then we can. We can adjust from there. Okay, Third part of this. Streaks and loss. Okay. Streaks and loss with some mercy built into it. That's the healthy part of it. So social media version. So you have like Snapchat streaks, Duolingo, they've got a streak flame. You get that loss aversion. So what we. What we want to do is we want to make sure that people kind of feel they. They don't want to lose what they built up as a way of putting it. That's what we really want to do. So Duolingo's. Duolingo's single most effective retention mechanic is that whole idea is you. They don't want to lose what they built. That's like their number one thing. So our version of this is that it's like finishing that daily run. So finishing your daily run, you want to build that streak. So we have the streak in there. It's only for weekdays, though. It's not for weekends. So we have to. We. We have it where everyone can get two freezes. That's what we call streak freezes a month. So if you miss a day, let's say you have a day off or you've got court and you can't. You know, you're not on the app because you're traveling or something like that, or you've got a sick kid, then that freeze it just. And it kind of burns silently right where you. You can't. You can't even click on it. It's just there, just like, boop. Okay, you. Your freeze is gone. You have one less freeze. It's kind of like if you die in a video game, you get like a get a do over. So you don't lose your. You don't lose your streak if you do a do over. So that's. There's like no guilty message either that pops up. Nothing like that? No. Like you're about to lose everything. Notification. There's nothing like that. We don't have that built into it. So. So that guardrail, we have that loss aversion. It gets that mercy valve. That's our guard rail for this. So keep it a little bit more healthy. So that is the streaks and losses. Okay. Hook four. Social validation. So recognition without rating rankings is what we've got. So social media version, you got the likes, the follower counts, leaderboards, the social validation feedback loops is what the. You know, Peter Parker. Not Peter Parker. Parker, the Facebook guy. I already forgot his name. Not a. Not. He doesn't play a great character in that Facebook movie. He's kind of the bad guy, but played by Justin Timberlake, if you'll remember that anyways. But the, it's the, it's that, you know, followers, feeder followers, likes, all that kind of stuff. So our version is the teammates can react with win cards to the wind cards with those small fixed set of emojis. It's. It's a limited set of emojis. We have it where it's like four or five options, nothing major. Kind of like the way Facebook does it, where you like four or five options. That's it. We don't have a bunch of those built in. There's no leaderboards. Although, although I am considering leaderboards. That's something I am thinking about doing. But we don't. We don't have people ranked nothing like that. So we didn't want to build any of that in. We're a little bit hesitant about doing that. I'm a little bit like, if we did a. A leaderboard, I'd have to find a really creative way of doing it because the case managers do more tasks than anybody else, but they have more tasks signed to them. There's like, there's. You can't do just task alone. You got to do. Find another way of doing it. So you just have to get creative. And so our guardrail for this though is we celebrate events and we just never rank people. That's just our big thing right now is not ranking people. And if we did, we'd have to, like I said, have to come up some sort of creative way of doing it. But this part of it is. Is kind of. It's based on the, like the research of this. It's called self determination theory. And like lasting motivation comes from autonomy, competence and relatedness. So. And I'm just reading straight from it. Recognition feeds competence and relatedness. So recognition feeds competence and relatedness. Rankings feed comparison. And so in a small firm, a leaderboard, because, I mean, we're, you know, 22 people, so we're still a small firm. So a leaderboard really has one winner. And you got like 21 losers. Losers, right. And just. I don't know. Don't know how I feel about that. That's not. Not the greatest. So we'll see if we did it, we'd have to again have to have. It had to be like a fun thing we would do. Like maybe like a challenger, like a. A one off. Oh. Something else we built into is. It's our quarterly rock is built in there. And it's. It's a meter that it. Which pulls straight from the system. So Pull straight from the system. There's no like manually entering into it. So you actually see it at all times where it's growing. So if you've done something on a file, it's added to it. It's pretty cool. That part's pretty named. And then let's get to the last hook. The. It's the ending. The most radical feature is a finish line. So social media version, they've got like this infinite scroll. So like that's, you know, Raskin's. Raskin's invention. Raskin's regret. The feed never ends because the. An end is where you. You'd leave, right? You get to the end, you leave. Okay. Like our version, everything terminates. Okay. So the daily run has a last quest. Okay. Finish it. And the app says, you're done for the day. See you tomorrow. Okay. That's what it says now. That's sort of said tongue in cheek. We may play with the wording a little bit again, we've not, we've not rolled this out to all employees, but, um, I don't know how I feel about the text of this yet. I don't really want people to leave for the day. I also don't want them to feel like, oh, I can leave for the day, but now I gotta stay here. So one of those things we'll probably play with a little bit. But it will have a termination point where it just stops and it doesn't. Doesn't try to keep Trying to pull you back in. And then so the wins panel it shows one week and there's like no scroll back. You can't go, you can't go back through the history on it. But that's one things we want to keep it. And then even the reward miname we build. It's so it's a 32nd Fox Runner. You hit the. Like I said, it's really simple. Hit the space bar jumps over things. It's kind of fun. But you only get three attempts. You have three a day. Once you've hit your goal, once you've hit your top three for the day which you've hit your finished your, your, your daily run, the game pops up, you can play for three times and then it's done for the day. So we, we have these things where it's like limited. You can do it so many times and then you're done. So, so that's the. Those are the five hooks. If you can, I'm sure you can find ways of adding those into your firms even if you don't have your own platform built out. So just to remember like you have to be really, really careful. Like we've. We built in a literal kill switch for this thing where it's. If we find that this isn't working, we turn it off. So you have to find a way of like having like a kill switch. Okay? So be very, very careful about that. Be very, very careful. If you were going to build a system like this, you want it to be a healthy system. You don't want it to be a system that is unhealthy and in an addictive way, that's unhealthy. You just don't want that. Okay? So be very, very careful. But that's all I have for you today. Hopefully you got something from this episode. I'll report back as we once we roll this thing out live and once we get more feedback from our people. But make sure you check out beccaslist co for all the best vendors. Make sure you go to Maximilian.com if you're interested in the association. And don't forget about the conference in October. Go to maxlawcon.com and get your tickets today. See everybody, have a great week.
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