Navigating the Challenges of a Niche Market with Ashley Garbe Smith

Summary

Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer Episode: Navigating the Challenges of a Niche Market with Ashley Garbe Smith
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Release Date: November 26, 2024

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux sits down with Ashley Garbe Smith, a seasoned attorney who has successfully navigated the complexities of running a niche law firm. Ashley shares her journey from a general practice attorney to specializing in dental transitions, the challenges she faced, and the personal growth she experienced along the way.

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Starting AGS Law During COVID-19 ([00:56] – [01:23])

Tyson opens the conversation by acknowledging a previous interview with Ashley and launches into the inception of her firm, AGS Law, established in 2020 amidst the global COVID-19 pandemic.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([01:16]):
"It was 2020. Right when Covid hit."

She reflects on launching her firm during such uncertain times, emphasizing the resilience required to start a new venture during a crisis.

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Transitioning from General Practice to Niching Down ([01:15] – [05:24])

Ashley discusses her initial approach as a general practice law firm, handling a wide array of legal services without a specific focus.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([02:57]):
"It wasn't until about six months after. First of all, I was super overwhelmed... I was just taking everything."

Inspired by insights from Maximum Lawyer, she realized the importance of niching down and decided to specialize in dental transitions—a highly specific area within business law.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([03:55]):
"I actually feel more fulfilled now because I'm able to spend more time with my family and do things like this and travel."

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Benefits and Challenges of Niching Down ([05:25] – [12:32])

Ashley elaborates on the advantages of specialization, including a higher conversion rate for consultations and the ability to charge flat fees due to her expertise.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([05:51]):
"What's interesting is when I have clients call me... they specifically, almost all of them ask, are you dental specific?"

She also touches on the challenges, such as being one of the few specialized attorneys in her field and the strategic decisions involved in maintaining her niche.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([11:26]):
"It's based on a percentage of collections. And so it's not as much as you think..."

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Personal Life and Self-Care as a Law Firm Owner ([13:33] – [18:17])

The conversation shifts to the importance of self-care and maintaining a work-life balance. Ashley shares her routines, such as daily gym sessions and attending mastermind events, which help her manage stress and prevent burnout.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([14:02]):
"I have to take time for myself every single day. So I wake up in the morning and I go to the gym. That's my me time."

She emphasizes that self-care is not just beneficial but essential for sustaining her professional and personal life.

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Overcoming Personal Tragedy and Building Resilience ([18:17] – [33:22])

Tyson delves into Ashley’s personal story of losing her husband in a helicopter crash 20 years ago. This tragedy propelled her into a career she hadn’t initially planned for—lawyering—and instilled in her a fearless mindset.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([19:47]):
"It really does put life into perspective. You might as well just do the things that you want to do."

She discusses how this experience has shaped her resilience, allowing her to persevere through professional setbacks and personal challenges.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([32:25]):
"Failure is such a good thing. It really does make you a better person."

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Reflections on Success and Challenges of Firm Growth ([33:22] – [66:55])

Ashley reflects on her understanding of success, which evolved significantly since starting her firm. Initially aiming for modest revenue goals, she was pleasantly surprised by her firm's rapid growth. However, with growth came unexpected challenges, particularly in managing and retaining employees.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([48:04]):
"I just didn't necessarily believe them because I'm like, you don't know what the hell you're talking about."

She candidly discusses her struggles with setting clear expectations and managing paralegals, highlighting the complexities of leadership in a growing firm.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([52:46]):
"I think some of it is her fault, but I do think that I'm at fault as well for not clearly communicating."

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Defining Success and Maintaining Balance ([66:55] – End)

In the concluding segment, Ashley shares her evolving definition of success. Initially, success was tied to financial milestones, but it has since expanded to include personal fulfillment and maintaining a balanced life. She advises young lawyers to explore various practice areas and not be confined by traditional paths suggested by law school.

Ashley Garbe Smith ([65:00]):
"Explore as many areas as you can. Don't necessarily listen to your law schools that are telling you clerkships and big law are the only way to go."

Ashley Garbe Smith ([66:55]):
"Number one, the best decision that I ever made. And it's taught me so much, and I've grown so much, and I really love it."

She concludes by encouraging new law firm owners to pursue niches that align with their passions and strengths, ensuring both professional success and personal satisfaction.

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Key Takeaways

• Niching Down Enhances Fulfillment and Efficiency: Specializing in a specific area like dental transitions can lead to higher client satisfaction and more streamlined operations.
• Importance of Self-Care: Maintaining personal routines and prioritizing mental health are crucial for long-term professional success.
• Resilience Through Adversity: Personal tragedies can foster resilience and drive individuals to pursue fulfilling careers.
• Effective Management is Critical: Clear communication and setting expectations are vital in managing a growing team.
• Redefining Success: Success encompasses not just financial achievements but also personal fulfillment and work-life balance.
• Advice for Young Lawyers: Explore diverse practice areas and follow roles that align with your strengths and passions rather than traditional expectations.

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Notable Quotes

• Ashley Garbe Smith ([03:55]):
  "I actually feel more fulfilled now because I'm able to spend more time with my family and do things like this and travel."

• Ashley Garbe Smith ([14:02]):
  "I have to take time for myself every single day. So I wake up in the morning and I go to the gym. That's my me time."

• Ashley Garbe Smith ([19:47]):
  "It really does put life into perspective. You might as well just do the things that you want to do."

• Ashley Garbe Smith ([32:25]):
  "Failure is such a good thing. It really does make you a better person."

• Ashley Garbe Smith ([65:00]):
  "Explore as many areas as you can. Don't necessarily listen to your law schools that are telling you clerkships and big law are the only way to go."

---

This episode offers invaluable insights for attorneys considering specializing in a niche market, emphasizing the balance between professional growth and personal well-being. Ashley Garbe Smith's candid reflections and practical advice serve as a guide for both seasoned and aspiring law firm owners.

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Ashley]

This.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. Welcome, Ashley. How are you?

[Ashley]

Good, thanks.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So we've interviewed you before. So I went back and looked at that transcript, which was. It was interesting. It was cool. I want to start with something else, though.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You started AGS law. Guess what year was it?

[Ashley]

It was 2020. Right when Covid hit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. So I have a post from October 29th of 2020.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I'm gonna get your thoughts on it.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right. So you put in there, it says, launching on November 2nd. Legal services offered. And you list a bunch of legal services.

[Ashley]

Yeah, I sure did.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so I want to. I want to know, how do you feel about the post now? With a little bit of hindsight, silly.

[Ashley]

I actually feel a little bit silly about it because I think going into it, I was at a general practice law firm. I mean, we did litigation, but we kind of just did everything that came into the door. And so I thought that's the way that you make money in a law firm. Like, you just do all of the things and then you can get all of the clients. And the interesting thing, it wasn't until I started listening to Maximum Lawyer, probably about six months after I started the firm, and you guys were talking about niching down now. I knew at the time that I was going to do dental transitions. But also I thought, well, how many dentists could be buying or selling practices like this? Seems like maybe I'll get one or two a month. And so I felt like I had to really be broad when I started out. And it wasn't until about six months after. First of all, I was super overwhelmed. I wasn't getting the clients that I wanted. I was getting of crap clients because I was just taking everything. And then when I really niched down and decided, like, I am really just going to focus on dental transitions, that's when I got more clients. I wasn't feeling quite as overwhelmed. I was able to really specialize, but yeah, I was going to do everything.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I do wonder, I hear this sometimes where attorneys feel less fulfilled whenever they're not doing all the different things because they get more variety. What are your thoughts on that?

[Ashley]

Well, I thought the same thing and I remember thinking that like, even when I just had graduated law school, because I thought, well, I want to do litigation because then I can be in the courtroom and. But I want to do estate planning because then I can make people feel happy when we sign their estate plan. So I, I get that. But now being a firm that has really niched down, I don't feel any less fulfilled doing this than I did doing all of the other things. In fact, I actually feel more fulfilled now because I'm actually, I'm able to do the things I want to do, aside from being a law firm owner and a boss and a lawyer. Like, I'm able to spend more time with my family and do things like this and travel. And so I feel actually more fulfilled because I've really niche down.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So something I was thinking about with your practice area, it is, it is really, I want to say odd, but it's. It's so different than many. I mean, it's like a niche within a niche within a niche.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's really difficult. But something I was thinking about. So with this post, you. You mentioned all these different practice areas. Yeah, I mean, it's probably 30. It's, it's a bunch of them. But the. I just wonder. It seems like with your practice area, you might be doing a lot of these things inside of that niche. Or am I. Am I wrong?

[Ashley]

No, I think that that's probably right because. So, I mean, it still is business law. And I don't know, I probably had trademarks on there too. And at some point I was doing trademarks for some of my dental clients and now I. In fact, it was the last guild mastermind that I went to. I think you said get rid of trademarks, and I did. And so even that's gone out the window. And so really it's business law kind of acquisitions and. And then still some estate planning because you have dentists who are selling their practices and they still haven't created a trust. So that's really basically it what other practice areas are on there?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, I can go to them. You definitely had trademarks?

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Business formation, business succession, contract drafting and review, Customizable contracts available on the website. Trademark registration, employment handbooks and documents, business consulting, demand letters, cease and desist letters. I can keep going. I am one fourth of the way through it.

[Ashley]

No, that's terrible.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Oh, that's embarrassing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a long list.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You mentioned the, like, the freedom and all that kind of stuff, but I mean, what have you learned from every time you've niched out like is. Because it is interesting people, the thought is, I'm going to remove this practice area. I'm going to make less money.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You and I both know that that's not true. You do make more money. But what other lessons are there inside of that about niching down?

[Ashley]

I think the big one is, what's interesting is when I have clients call me and we're talking about dentists. So when I have. When I have dentists call me and we do a consultation, they specifically, almost all of them ask, are you dental specific? Which is so funny because how many lawyers are you really going to ask that? But that's what they want because they've talked to their broker and they've talked to their lender and they've talked to other people, the other dentists. And everyone has told them, you need an attorney that does dental transitions. Because there's something unique about dental transitions. So almost all of them will ask me, are you dental specific? How many transitions do you do in a year? You know, how many have you done overall? And it makes them feel more confident. So my conversion rate on consultations is really high because of that, because I've niched down, so it's not hard for me to convert clients. And also because I've specialized and I've taken the time to really understand this practice area, it's actually easier for me. It's reduced the amount of time that I spend and I charge a flat fee. So at the beginning, when I wasn't as like well versed in this and I was doing a bunch of other stuff, it. The flat fee would sometimes really kill me, but now the flat fee works to my advantage.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why is that?

[Ashley]

Because it takes me less time than it did three years ago, but I'm still offering the same thing. I'm just spending less time doing it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. Have you ever dug into the mindset why these. I mean, they're dentists, right? They're. And usually doctors in general are highly specialized.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So have you. I mean, is that why.

[Ashley]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. So for sure.

[Ashley]

And. Well, dentists are a lot like. Lawyers have big egos.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Not as bad as Orthos, but I know.

[Ashley]

Well, and I do work with a lot of orthodontists too, and they do have bigger egos. Just kidding.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They're probably at the, they're right below like fighter pilot, I think.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Yeah. There's. I mean, there's egos there. There are egos that I have to deal with. But I'm an attorney and I understand that. Yeah. I think because they understand specialized, like specialization. I think they expect that from an attorney. Like they, they know. Well, I'm not going to go to my brother, who's a family law attorney to do my acquisition. So I think that's why.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I'm gonna ask you something. I asked Paul Yokobitis there. We interviewed an attorney that runs a massive PI firm. And they're, they're expanding really, really, really quickly. In their, in his own words, he said that they're the fastest growing in the country. I don't know if that's true, but he's talking about consolidation and how in the, in the next 10 years there's going to be massive consolidation. I don't know if that's true. If you think about people like Seth Godin, he seems to have the mindset it's the opposite, that with attorneys it's going to be a little bit different. I wonder what your thoughts. Because you have a very specific niche. You're not going to see some massive, you know, conglomerate of a, of a firm that's.

[Ashley]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I just, I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Ashley]

Yeah, well, it's interesting. I think right now there are probably, if you asked, people in the industry. So again, I'm talking about brokers and lend. And there are dental brokers and dental lenders. And if you ask them to name the attorneys that they know, they're gonna name about five, and I'm gonna be included in that list of five. And that's how it has been over the last four years. It hasn't really changed. There's still the same five or six attorneys or firms. And those firms aren't growing massively. They're, you know, there's some of the, you know, because there's just me and I've got two other attorneys, but there are some other firms, like there's one in Pennsylvania and they have 10 attorneys and that's probably like the biggest one. And they are dental specific as well.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So but that's, that's surprising with that size of a firm for dental specific only.

[Ashley]

I know it's kind of crazy. And I mean. And they do a lot of transition, so I think that's the biggest one. Otherwise, I mean, you're looking at solo and small firms, and it's not growing that much. And you've got the lenders and the brokers who know who they can trust. So I don't see it growing a ton. Also, the dental industry itself is changing because like medical, a lot of dentists are selling their practices to DSOs, which are corporations. And that's what happened with the medical industry as well. So I don't see it growing. I do, you know, potentially see it actually shrinking because of that, because there's going to be a lot fewer dentist to dentist transitions.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. So we had someone on the podcast last week and he talked about he's got an exchange for law firms that want to buy and sell, which it seems like you hear more about doctors and dentists doing it than lawyers. Yeah, I'm hoping that shifts at some point. Do you see maybe in the future some sort of transition where you would add something like attorney, you know, buying and selling of practices?

[Ashley]

Yeah. Well, so right now, so I've been focusing on dentist, but I have had optometrists contact me and like, optometry is so much like a dent, a dental practice. So optometrists, vets. So I foresee something like a law firm transition being very similar to that. I. What's interesting is I wonder how you would value a law firm because there's a very specific way to value like a dental practice or an optometry practice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. What is that understanding of that?

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's based on a percentage of collections. And so it's not as much as you think, you know, because you look at other businesses and you're. If you're buying another business, you might be buying it at 2x the revenue, but it's the opposite with dental practices, where you're probably spending around 80 to 90% of like the previous year's collections. So, I mean, sometimes you're spending 100% depending on where the practice is and things like that. But I just, I would be interested to know how you would value a law firm.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's interesting with the dental. So essentially if, let's say there's, you know, we'll just do even simple math. So if you have, if you have a million dollars, a million dollars in revenue. So basically you're buying it for $300,000.

[Ashley]

Well, like if you have $1 million in revenue in 2023, you're buying it for 80 to 90% of that. So it's like 800. 800 to 900,000.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Gotcha. I misunderstood that. Okay, good. So I understand the math. Okay, gotcha. That, that makes sense. And I'm guessing that that works in dental because there's returning clients.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Or patients.

[Ashley]

Patients, yeah, different.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I guess that there could be some practice areas that would work. But I mean, like, with, like with.

[Ashley]

My type of practice area, I've got clients who come in and I do the thing for them and then they're done. They're. I mean, some of them are returning clients who are buying additional practices. But really. And I think that's kind of how it is for most law firms. Unless you're like, Unless you have like some corporate clients that just stay with you.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, Interesting. I could see how you get it with PI, because what I can do is I can look at our caseload. I can look at our average, average fee, but I can also take some of those. I can say, okay, we got these bigger cases. These are. Take those outside the average fee, they're worth more. I could see that. I would have it really difficult. I would have a problem valuing a criminal defense firm. Something like that.

[Ashley]

For sure. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Or diverse for a divorce firm. Unless, like, they're getting a divorce every two years, which that's not going to happen.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's interesting. Okay, so I want to shift a little bit and you have a post on Instagram.

[Ashley]

I'm kind of embarrassed about these posts now. Be careful what you put on the Internet.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, it's true. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be embarrassed. This is not an embarrassing post. The first one I did was the only embarrassing one I'm the only embarrassing.

[Ashley]

One I've ever posted.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You have in a post? I pulled a snippet out of an overall. There's a lot more text in it. But you said as a mom, wife and business owner, self care has become increasingly important. And I just wonder what. I want to get your perspective on that.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So, I mean, I think that sometimes, and I'm not even just going to say, as women, I think just as high achieving people, I think we can really drive ourselves to burnout and overwhelm fast and, you know, I want to be the best wife and the best mom and the best law firm owner and the best boss. And when you do that, you're gonna end up pissing someone off because you're trying to please everybody. It's like this recovering people pleaser in me. And so for me, I've just learned that I have to take time for myself every single day. So I wake up in the morning and I go to the gym. Like that's my me time. And I kind of have the same routine. I go. I actually work out at a place called F45. And so they have the workout completely planned out for me. I don't have to plan anything. I just go and I work out and I get to spend time with friends. And that's. That is my me time. But on top of that, like, you know. So right now we're in Charlotte for the Guild Mastermind. What do you do? What do we actually call it?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Mastermind.

[Ashley]

Mastermind. Yeah. So this is self care for me. Because I don't have my family with me. I come and I travel and I do this thing for me. And it. For me, it's really rejuvenating. You know, lately I've been feeling pretty burnt out. I've been really busy. This is my busy season. And you know, the other day I just went and got a pedicure and a manicure. And it's just nice to be able to just forget about everything, even if it's just for an hour or two and then come back and feel rejuvenated and ready to dive in and work.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned the Guild Mastermind because the last time that post was from the last mastermind that you. Oh, so that is.

[Ashley]

That's really funny.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, that's good. The. I want to ask you about the. About the personal training. Is the gym that you go to, is it personal trainer or do you go, how's it work?

[Ashley]

So the way it is. So if you know Orange Theory, it's very similar. So F45, orange theory, you go. They have set classes during the day and they do have personal trainers there. And you go, and you do like stations. So it's hiit training. And there's a screen on the wall. It's like a TV that shows you what you're doing. And then as you're doing it, you've got the personal trainers that are coming around and making sure that your form is right. But you're all kind of doing the same workout and rotating through stations. And so it's not like it's kind of brain like mindless. Like you don't have to think about it too much. I hate putting together my own workouts.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So the reason why I asked that. I'm like you, I just want to go to the gym and work out. I. But I do use a trainer, and they tell me what to do. They just say, yeah, you do these things. What I like about it is they are professionals. Like, we're professionals.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I may not be doing that certain workout.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And they say, okay, you need to go a little deeper on that. You'll get more. Get more out of it. So I brought that up. I think it. Whether in a. It's one of those things that's overlooked because. Yeah, like in our profession, we especially early on, you grind, you grind, you grind. And you. You really don't focus on the health side of things, and it can be really detrimental.

[Ashley]

Yeah, well, in law school, I didn't even work out at all the. And. And I was depressed. I mean, it was also law school. So, you know, it's kind of depressing sometimes, but. But it makes such a difference. If I go two or three days without working out. I feel it mentally. I mean, mentally more than physically. So for me, it's actually, it's. It's my anxiety medicine.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, no, I think that. I think it's a good way of putting it. And I just. It's one of the things, like, if we could pass on something to listeners, like, get. Take care of yourself, because 100%, if you can't do that, you can't. You're going to. There's many sad stories, depression of people dying, of heart attacks, things like that, that just. They gotta take care of themselves. It's. It's.

[Ashley]

Yeah, we.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't. I don't know if we focus on it enough. I'm gonna shift gears a little bit. And you talked in our previous episode. You've talked. You've been pretty open about this, but you lose. You lost your husband in a helicopter crash now, how many years ago?

[Ashley]

So it was exactly 20 years ago last month.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's. That's incredible. I didn't realize it's been that long, but, yeah, 20 years ago. And it. You talked about a couple of things that you learned from it, but I want to focus on the part where you said it. It could make you be a bit fearless. And what that did for you is at the time, you were not a lawyer. You weren't.

[Ashley]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You weren't.

[Ashley]

I didn't even plan on. No. Yeah, I didn't plan on being a lawyer at all.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. So that. That caused you to then go to college, become a lawyer. And my question to you, though, is why is it, do you think that people tend to need a tragedy like that to make a change like that?

[Ashley]

I don't know if it's that they need a tragedy like that. I think you have some people that will just do it because they have that desire. I think some of us need the tragedy because we need the push and need that understanding that life is short. And sometimes you don't really fully grasp that until you go through a tragedy, you lose someone that you love at a young age or at any age, honestly, because it really does put life into perspective. And so I think. I think it just pushes people. It makes people realize that we only have a certain amount of time on this earth. And so you might as well just do the things that you want to do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Whenever you. You're working with these dentists that want to sell their practice, are you. Are you getting them usually at the point where it's early on enough where they can. They can enjoy their life, or are they at the end of the road? Basically?

[Ashley]

It's so interesting with dentistry. These guys love their practices. And I. And most of the time, I can't even tell you how many times I've had someone selling their practice. And he's like, well, my wife says it's time. And he's like, they're like 75 years old, and it's really their wife saying, okay, I need time with you now. Like, our time is short and you've got to sell your practice. And so most of the time, it's almost too late. Where I don't know how much more they can enjoy. You know, I mean, some of them can go and travel, but at 75, 80, how much are you really able to do? And so I think some of them just get so wrapped up in owning their business, owning their practice, and having these relationships with their patients. And it's understandable as a firm owner, but they. A lot of them, it's really late in life that they're doing that, so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It'S kind of the reverse. And I can't remember the exact quota, but it's essentially. At what point in your life did you choose to give up your dream or at what cost did you. You know, like. So you essentially gave up on early. It's like the reverse of that. You're. They give up on their dream, but it's later on in life.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I think so. I. I think that's what is. We've got, like, some music or something out there, like a motorcycle Game blasting their music.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think that's a motorcycle.

[Ashley]

Yeah, yeah, it, I, I think we can get really wrapped up in the job and what we do. And it's so interesting that a lot of them are saying, well, it's my spouse that now wants me to sell this business. And to me that's really telling. Because your spouse has watched you go through this and is like, okay, like now it's my time. Like, you and I need to have time together because you've been doing this for so many years and we haven't even been able to travel.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So. Okay, let's talk a little bit about that because it's interesting. When you own your own firm, your personal life, it's wrapped into your business life. Oh yeah, There is no way of separating. We like to say there's like this work life balance.

[Ashley]

That's bs.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's total bullshit. Right. And I wonder, given your past experiences and given the fact that you're running this business, I wonder, what does that bring into your marriage? Whenever you're speaking to your husband and dealing with his dreams and all that, what do you bring to the marriage when it comes to that?

[Ashley]

You know, it's interesting because. So a couple weeks ago, well, about a week ago, I had to fire my paralegal. And so I ended up replacing her. But there was a period of two weeks where I just was working until 2am every single night because I didn't have a paralegal. And he kept saying, this is not sustainable. And he's right, it's not. And then a couple days later, My son, my 11 year old, I heard him talking to his friends and they were like, hey, we want to go to the local water park. Do you think your mom could take us? And he's like, no, she's always working. That's all she's ever doing is working. And it hit me so hard because I've got my husband saying this is not sustainable. I've got my 11 year old saying, I'm always working. And it really can. I mean, fortunately my husband is so patient and understanding because when he started working at the company that he's at now, he's the president of this company and he's a shareholder. But when he started there, it was very similar. For the first three years, it was night and day. He was working night and day and he said, I just need to put in this time for this first three to four years and then, you know, we'll be able to have more time together. And he was absolutely right. And so, because he understands that, he understands what I'm going through, and he's very patient. But if you don't take the time for your marriage and your kids, like, number one, they notice, and they'll see what you're prioritizing above them, and that can be painful for them and for you. And number two, it really can start to separate you. So for my husband and me, we will always have a show that we're watching together. And I know we're just sitting in bed watching a show, but at least it's like, okay, here's the thing that we're doing. And this is like, every Sunday, we're going to watch this show together. Right now, it's House of the Dragon. And so that's what we're watching right now. And so we had. I mean, you know, and, like, we schedule out time. I was about to give away too much information, but, like, you have to schedule the time, so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, so it's. It's something that, you know, Amy and I, that we do. We've got date night. Like, that's something that we have date night. We know we have date night. Are we always able to hit that? No, but we're pretty damn good at it.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's because it's on our calendar, you know? Exactly. So I wonder, do you go to that extent where you put things on your calendar like that?

[Ashley]

If it's not on my calendar, it's not happening.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Ashley]

And that's everything. So, you know, it. It might seem like. Like too much that, like, I'm putting everything on my calendar. But I just. Number one, I'll forget, like, for. In fact, I forgot my son's soccer practice last week because I just didn't have it on my calendar. But, like, you know, Wednesday nights, Saturday nights, that's time for us.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's interesting. That's great. I want to. I want to shift gears a little bit. And I. We were talking about dreams a little bit, and I. So I'm going to move this up into when I was going to talk about it.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You had an album that you put out in 2012.

[Ashley]

2012.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I. I think that's awesome. That's really cool. Tell me about that. And I want to, like, Give me. Give me the details. How old were you in 2012?

[Ashley]

Okay, let's see. In 2012, I was. I was born in 82. So how old does that make me in 2012?

[Tyson Mutrix]

The math should be easy for us, but it's not 30 years old.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, so before that, before I put that album out, so I actually lived in Greenville, South Carolina, in my early 20s, so about 10 years prior to that. So, you know, 2002 to about 2005. What? About 2000 to 2005, I lived in South Carolina and I was playing the music scene. I was writing songs. I was co writing with some people I actually became acquainted with. I mean, and this was a long time ago, so people aren't going to know some of these names, but like Edwin McCain back in the day. No one knows that name, but no.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Idea who that is?

[Ashley]

No. But anyway, he was there in Greenville, and so I was a songwriter and I was in that scene. And I tried recording an album there and I did, and it was garbage. And so I really wanted to do like a fully produced album. And. But it costs money. And so I would. I would play out and play in bars, play gigs. And then I moved back to Utah and I played in a country band where I was keyboard player and the backup singer. And we actually. I played with a girl named Lindsay Sterling, who is now like a violinist. She tours around the world, she dances and she plays the violin and she sells out all of her venues.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's impressive because I can't imagine, like, doing either of those things at the same time.

[Ashley]

And she does like Ariel, like acrobatics. But at the time she played for me and she played in this country band with me, and now she's this big star. But I realized, like, playing with someone else wasn't. I mean, it fulfilled some need of me just like going out and playing and performing. But I had this songwriter inside of me and I had these songs that I wanted to get out. So I saved up the money and ended up producing this album. And in my mind, I was like, okay, I'm going to put this out there and I'm going to get a record deal and I'm going to be a big rock star. Well, that is not what happened. I recorded the album. I had an album release party and I think there were like 50 people there. And like, half of them were my family members because we're in Utah and we've got big families out there. And so did not get a record deal. No one at the time. That was 2012. Like, I mean, my music is on itunes and Spotify, but we still had like, CDs. And I would have like one person a week, like ordering the CD and I have to go and mail it. And it was kind of a pain in the butt.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Something real Pain?

[Ashley]

Yeah, no, it's terrible. And so then I'm like, well, I just, I don't even want to do that anymore. People can just get listen to on Spotify or Apple music. So it. Honestly, for me, it was also like an awakening where it's like, okay, if you want to do this, do it because you love it. Like, it's not, it's not going to get you to where you're hoping it's going to get you the music industry much harder than being a lawyer. Like, it was so much harder being a musician than it was going to law school and becoming an attorney. Because a lot of it is luck. Most of it is who you know, some of it is what you're willing to compromise and give up. Because when I was in South Carolina, I actually went and I met with a producer down in Atlanta who had produced Madonna at the time. And he was like, we can make you big. Can you dance? And I was like, I mean, yeah, do I want to dance? No. And he's like, okay, well, if you can, if you can dance and you can sing pop songs and you can dress like a pop star, we'll make you a pop star. Well, that is not what I wanted. So I wasn't even willing to compromise and do that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's interesting to me that it does seem to me from the outside looking in that that industry does try to take who you are and change it into someone else.

[Ashley]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I wonder what, what lessons you learned from that experience that you've been able to bring into your practicing law.

[Ashley]

Well, I think probably the first and foremost is confidence. In order to get up on stage in front of thousands of people, you have to have some level of confidence. And, and it doesn't mean that I didn't like, get stage fright or I didn't feel nervous. I still do, you know, I'll still perform every once in a while for fun. And I still like, get the butterflies and I still get nervous. But. But it's helped me have a lot of confidence and I think I've been able to bring that into my practice and just know, you know what, like, you might screw up, you might mess something up, and that's okay. You just stay confident and know that you fix it and move on. I think the other thing let me. You know, there's, there's actually. So there are a lot of lawyers who are musicians and part of it is, I think again, it's like a high achieving thing. You know, we all maybe played an instrument growing up and became lawyers because we were high achieving and. But I think knowing that, you know, if you just practice something and keep doing something a lot, you're going to be an expert at it at some point. And so that's especially with niching down, like with dental transitions. It's like, if I just keep doing this, I'm going to be an expert in this at some point. And it's the same thing with, you know, playing the piano and singing. It's just practicing the same thing over and over again.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I do like that idea of, you know, getting better and a lot of it is just doing the same thing over and over again. So I think that's a, a pretty valuable lesson. I'm gonna ask you about resilience because you, you tragically lost your husband, your music career didn't go the way you had planned. And so I wonder, what does that make you more one, like more fear the future? Does it make you stronger? So what do you just tell me about that?

[Ashley]

I think failure is such a good thing. And, and I remember my mom saying this to me like when I was a teenager. And she said, you know, I want my kids to fail at things because it makes us stronger. It really does make you a better person. And I think the same thing for my kids. You know, you want your kids to do all the things that they want to do. And my son tried out for a club soccer team and didn't make it. And I don't want to say I wasn't that sad because my, these sports now are so crazy.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Travel all over the place.

[Ashley]

Freaking expensive.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And, but, and then it was sad. I was sad for him, but also I was like, you know what? He needs to understand that, like, life can be hard and you just move on. And it actually, I just think that's such a good lesson that, you know, we can get knocked down and some of it is going to be our fault, the things that we bring on ourselves, and some of it is going to be circumstances that we can't control. And so it's whatever we do with that that matters. And, you know, you just got to get back up and just keep going.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I. Tell me, where does that mindset come from? Because, I mean, you and I, we both know a lot of people that something bad has happened to them and they just shut down. They give up, right? They. They. It's something that me, Becca and Amy were talking about at lunch where there. Sometimes people, something bad happens and they just give up. They. They will never strive because they always have that excuse, right?

[Ashley]

Oh yeah. I have family members who are like that because I think it's easy to get in the victim mentality too, where it's like, well, that's it. Like everything is everyone else's fault and there's nothing I can do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why didn't that happen to you? You have plenty of excuses, I think for me.

[Ashley]

Well, number one, it's not my personality. But I also just think, well, you know, I do have faith in a higher power and I, you know, I understand there are a lot of listeners that aren't going to agree with that. But I feel like there has been something that has helped push me along. Now if I'm being honest, when my husband first died, I was in a downward spiral. So I was playing bars with musicians who were doing drugs and drinking a lot, staying up a lot, and behaving in a lot of like self destructive behaviors. And I started down that path. And so, you know, so I, you know, I was drinking and trying things that, you know, trying drugs that I hadn't tried before. And it did not bring happiness at all. And it brought like a lot more chaos into an already chaotic situation. So I was able to step back and see that that's not the life I wanted to live. But honestly, I do feel, whether it was the universe or God or whatever it was that pushed, that helped push me past that, to help get me over that, to see that that is not the life I wanted to live and that wasn't the life that was meant for me to live.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's good segue. I want to ask you about the happiness thing. There is a professor that was on Modern Wisdom podcast. It's by Chris Williamson. You ever watched it?

[Ashley]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so it's great, you should check it out. But he had a Harvard professor on by the name of Arthur Brooks. And Arthur said there's no such thing as being happy. It's just the constant pursuit of becoming happy. But with that and one of the problems with the younger generations, and he picked on the younger generations. I think it applies to everybody. Yeah, like we think that happiness is a destination, right? Whenever really. It's a sliding scale. You've got bad days, you've got great days. And it's, it's, it's kind of goes back and forth. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that because that was an interesting thought and something I hadn't thought about before.

[Ashley]

You know, that's, that is really interesting. And there's another podcast that I think it's called the Happiness project anyway, that, that actually explores this as well. And I agree. I think sometimes we get in this habit of being like, okay, when I'm done with this client, things are going to be better. When I'm done with this project, things are going to be better. And that's never the case. I think part of becoming an adult is just realizing like that's never, there's never going to be one thing that ends and then all of a sudden you're golden forever. So I think it's more of just being able to be present in the moment that you're in and enjoy the moment that you're in and know that like tomorrow there might be a super shitty thing that happens and that's okay. I, I love this quote that my mom says. You know, whenever I'm feeling down or I like, I have a really, really crappy day, she'll be like, okay, today's your day, feel it. You can feel it today. And then tomorrow is someone else's day. And so it's just time to move on and then just continue to just be present and enjoy the life that you're living in that moment.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think that's good. Why, why do you think, why do you think lawyers struggle with that so much though?

[Ashley]

Oh, this is a really good question. And we had to read a book in law school and I think it was called the Happy Lawyer or no, I could be wrong, I can't remember. But it's about this. And I think because the people who tend to get into this profession can be high strung individuals, can be highly anxious individuals and not, I mean, I'm speaking very generally, obviously, but, but there is a certain type of person that, that chooses to enter this profession and work hard at it. You know, you've got some of the lawyers who are just like, you know, I just want to work for a non profit, you know, I want to work no more than 40 hours a week. And frankly I look at those people and they look really happy and that, you know, they look like they really enjoy what they do. They probably not making much money, but that's okay for some people. So I think part of it is this like incessant need to just constantly be reaching for more and reaching for the next best thing and you know, making more money. And frankly, like it's a struggle, it's something that I struggle with because it's like, okay, do I want to, you know, I know that I could make a lot more money doing what I'm doing, but is it worth the time that I'm gonna spend, is it worth the effort and the time away from my family? And that's. That's a struggle that I think we all have and have to figure out for ourselves. Like, at what point, at what point is it too much? And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. And I, you know, I know that, like, as a mom, I put pressure on myself as a woman and a female in an industry that is highly male dominated. Still. Still in Utah, there's. It's still very male dominated.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. Okay, I didn't realize that.

[Ashley]

Yeah, okay. Very much so. You know, I. I think if we continue to put that pressure on ourselves, like, how can you be happy when you're. You're just constantly, like, reaching for the next best thing and not living in the moment? So part of it is a personality thing, the type of personalities that flock to this type of career. And then part of it is just not learning to be present. I think for me, meditation has helped a ton with that. So I've. I've implemented a meditation practice, and I try and do it every day. I don't always do it every day, but when I do, I just find that I just am better at being present.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I hear people talking about meditation quite a bit. I've struggled with it. I mean, what is it about the meditation that helps you so much?

[Ashley]

So for me, it's about removing everything outside of me and just learning to just be present and understand, like, what I'm feeling in my body, like hearing the things around me and just being where I am. And I think when you learn how to do that, when you're in the middle of a stressful situation at work, you can use those tools to get back to that place. So when it's like when I start feeling anxious, I use those tools to bring that anxiety in and just center and feel present.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you ever had that feeling? So you, you drive home, and so you leave work, you drive home, you get home, and you don't remember anything about the drive home. Do you ever have.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah, all the time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I feel like you mentioned being present, and I feel like many of us. And I'm guilty of this too, where I feel like sometimes we do that with life, where we'll, you know, it, you know, beginning of the year, we're thinking, okay, this is going to be my year. Right. You know, it's February, and you're like, what happened? Like, so, like, how do we avoid that? Because that's. That's tough.

[Ashley]

I Don't know. I mean, I wish I had the answer because I'm not good. I'm not the greatest at it. I think, again, practice, and I do, like, again, practicing meditation, practicing self care, and, you know, making sure that we're making time for our family and, you know, kind of the things that we've already talked about. I think you have to do those things outside of the career. I think it's so easy to just get caught up in the busyness of life. And that's. That's when you just kind of black out and you're just going. And you like, all of a sudden you turn around and your kid's 15 and kissing a girl and getting mono. So, you know, I like.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I've heard mono's terrible. Never had it.

[Ashley]

Oh, he just got over it. It was like a month long of. But. But good for him for kissing a girl.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Hey, congrats to him. Nice job.

[Ashley]

I was happy for him.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Absolutely. That's what we have. So let me shift gears a little bit. When you started your firm in 2020. Actually, you know what? Let's back up a little bit more.

[Ashley]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What year did you start your career as a lawyer?

[Ashley]

20. Well, 2017.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, 2017. Passed the bar. Like, okay, if you can remember, what was success? What it. What would it look like back then? What did you think it was?

[Ashley]

Well, I wanted to be a litigator, and so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And what did you think a litigator was? Talk about that too, because.

[Ashley]

Well, so I was a paralegal for a litigation firm for eight years. So I felt like I had a good understanding of it, but I really didn't until. So what I thought it was. Well, I thought it was a lot more time in court in front of a judge, and so I thought it was more of a performance, you know, So I thought, like, I'm on stage all the time, I can perform. So I really like being a litigator. Well, it's not anything like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Not at all.

[Ashley]

Not even at all. And so. So when for me, I like, pass the bar and like, oh, I'm going to be a litigator. And I. People are just going to think I'm so awesome, and they're going to think I performed so well in court. Well, here's one thing. If you're five feet tall and you're a blonde woman in Utah, like, it's. I understand that appearance is not supposed to matter, but this was pre Covid, and so everything was still all in person, and a lot of that Practice area is about intimidation, manipulation, dominance, and I didn't win in any of those categories.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's fun to. We'll go back to my question in a second. But, like, I. I'm a firm believer. I don't like webex for. Apparently, that's. We don't use Zoom, because I. If I'm in person with the judge, I can massage the situation, and I know I can get a better. Better result for my client. So I think you're 100% right about that. But back to you, because I don't want to get you off too far track, but we're talking about success. Go ahead.

[Ashley]

Yeah. So for me, it looked like winning a bunch of cases. Like, when it came down to it, being able to stand in front of a judge and win the case, and, yeah, that was nothing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

At what point did you realize that was not what it was?

[Ashley]

So Covid had just hit, and I'm a baby lawyer. I'm a baby litigator, and the senior partner who was on this case with me, it was a dispute with an hoa. So our clients were the homeowners. They had an issue with their foundation. They're trying to get the HOA to pay for it, trying to determine was it, like, a common area issue. And ultimately. So Covet had just hit. It's like our second deposition that we're doing via Zoom. Not deposition. It was a mediation. So it was our second mediation that we're doing via Zoom. And my clients, we end up getting to the conclusion that they're only going to get this certain amount from. So the HOA is like, you know what? We're gonna settle. We're gonna settle this case. So me, I'm like, great, this is a win. And they're like, but, yeah. And we're negotiating back and forth, and then they throw out the number. And the. My clients are like, well, that's in addition to our attorney fees that we're paying you. Right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's not how it works.

[Ashley]

No, no. And. And at this point, my senior partner's on, like, a family vacation, and so it's just me. And. And I said, no, that's not it. And anyway, they got so mad, and we're in this mediation on Zoom, and, like, I am flustered, and they start yelling at me and calling me names, and they storm out of the law firm screaming obscenities, walking out of the hall, and I'm sitting there like, we just won. Like, I just. I just got you some money. And it was more than what the attorney fees were, but it wasn't. It wasn't enough to pay for the damage to the house, which is, you.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Know, one of the most frustrating things for me. And what we do is we get a fantastic offer for our clients. Fantastic.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like. And I'm talking, like, we've hit a grand slam.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And they think it's not even close to enough.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And, you know, I was talking to my friend. She's a lawyer in some other state. We have a case we're recently dealing with on this. It is so frustrating. So do you ever encounter something like that in your dental. Dental practice work?

[Ashley]

Occasionally, but not as much. And so, you know, because I did some pie, too, and it was the same. You know, it's like a fender bender. And I'm like, I just got you $6,000. And they're like, that's garbage. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. You had a fender bender. And this is good. And with transitions, like, the goal is to get to the end of the sale of the practice and to have both people be happy and to continue to have a relationship, because, you know, there. There's a transition period. You've got the seller handing over the practice to the buyer, so you want them to continue to have a relationship. And. And, yeah, I'll have. Occasionally, I'll have a disgruntled client that doesn't think I got them the best deal. And, you know, there's some negotiation points. Maybe they're buying the building and the practice, and they feel like they're paying too much for it or they feel like they had to concede on a number of things. It doesn't happen quite as much. But I think you're going to find those personalities in every practice area with every kind of client. And so I think it's just learning how to deal with that kind of personality in general.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No doubt. All right, so I'm going to. I'm going to loop back, because what. What I ultimately wanted to get to was success. When you started the firm in 2020, what did it look like? And how is that different from reality?

[Ashley]

Well, honestly, for me, because I had no. I had no idea, like, how much I could make as a solo firm owner. And. And so for me, I was like, well, if I could just. Like, if I could just make, like, if I could bring in revenue $100,000 a year, then that would be good. And surprisingly, I was able to bring in a lot more than that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You've been very successful. Yeah.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And so for me, it actually has almost been the opposite, where what I thought success was, like, I could shoot a lot higher. And I didn't realize that, like, I could continue to shoot higher. But then at some point there's like, diminishing returns where it's like, you just keep shooting. And then like, what are you getting?

[Tyson Mutrix]

So interesting, because I want to ask you about that. So what was more surprising to you that you were able to get to that number fat so fast or that? Is it the challenges that you face once you get to that next level?

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, for me. Yeah. Because I had people say, oh, no, you'll get to that number quickly. And I just. I just didn't necessarily believe them because I'm like, you don't, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're not a firm owner. And so for me, it's, you know, where, like where I'm at now, where we're comfortable, we're making good money. But then it's like, you know, firing, hiring and firing people and managing people like that has been harder than I could have imagined.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How so?

[Ashley]

I've gone through, like four paralegals and all for, like, different reasons. They haven't worked out, and some of them were really good and they just quit and went and did something else.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Let me ask you a pretty pointed question. Where have you been at fault in these situations? Where's the trend?

[Ashley]

So for me, it's setting expectations, managing expectations, and following up with KPIs. That's where I haven't, you know, for the first few, I wasn't as consistent. And so, you know, I think I've been a lot better, especially with this new hire and this new paralegal where I've really said, okay, here are my expectations. And the very first day I said, here's how you can win with the firm, and this is exactly what I expect of you. And on top of that, here's a KPI that we're going to give you every single month. So you know exactly what I'm looking for and what I'm looking at. And we're going to go over it every month. And, you know, had I set. Had I done the same thing about setting those expectations, the other thing is, you know, I don't. I don't love conflict. I don't. I mean, I know there are some people who love. I don't know how many people love it. There are some people who do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

There are some.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

There's. There's plenty.

[Ashley]

And because I like the employee, and I, you know, I want them to know they are doing a good job, but they could be improving on this. I think I'm not as direct, and so I'll say, you know, hey, you did this wrong. And then we kind of leave it at that and don't revisit it. And I think for me as a manager, I could be better. You know, each month or every time we. Or quarterly, however often, you know, we do a review by saying, you know, here are the things that I think you could work on and being more direct about that, because when I fired this paralegal, you know, two weeks ago, she said, and it's kind of funny because she said, I had no indication whatsoever that this was coming. And I was like, really? Because in my mind, we had talked about these things, and we had gone over these things, and still she said, I had no indication that this was coming.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. So there's a lot of advice that people tell you, oh, your employees know. Yeah, that's not always true. We've had multiple people that just didn't see it coming. And it's interesting. There's all these business principles and all these thoughts and these quotes and these ideas and people, oh, this is the way. And I think a lot of that's just nonsense.

[Ashley]

Oh, yeah, I do, too. And I mean, I had been looking to replace this girl for six months, and so I do think kind of at the end, like, the last two months, I kind of gave up, like, because I already knew I was going to replace her. And so I think by me not communicating with her, she just was like, I'm doing a good job, and she wasn't. And I was constantly, you know, in. In the words of my associate attorney, I was up her ass all the time, but she didn't think I was. She didn't think that. And so. So I. I think some of it is her fault, but I do think that I'm at fault as well for not clearly communicating.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, there is a lot of danger in that phase where, you know you're going to terminate them, but you kind of have to hold on to them. But then you can get into this complacency where they just never go anywhere. And so that. There is a lot of danger in that.

[Ashley]

Oh, that's been the last six months in my practice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, that's a tricky one. And it's. So there's something. This is a lesson that I've learned over the last year or so where if I'm feeling a certain way, and it could be as simple as someone says your name wrong and you're like, I could just. I could not correct it. And just. But the lesson is, no, my name is Tyson. You know, it's not. It's not Travis. I get. I get Travis all the time for some weird reason.

[Ashley]

Oh. As an Ashley, I get Amanda. Amber. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So whenever it doesn't matter if you're talking to an employee, a friend, whatever. No, you say no, that's. That's not okay. Or like, especially with employees, you have to be. And this is. I am. I've gotten better at this, but I am. I've been a people pleaser, you know, so being direct with them and setting. Setting the boundaries, setting the guidelines is so important.

[Ashley]

Yeah. And you talk about boundaries. And I think this is really important because I think specifically with this most recent paralegal, I think she thought we were like, friends. Like, you know, because, like, I got a little, like, we got too friendly to where she felt comfortable, like, being super sassy with me as her boss. And even my associate attorney was like, man, she is sassy. And she's like, I would never talk to my boss that way, and I just let it happen. And I think as a boss, you know, like, you can't be the Michael Scott of bosses. And so I think you do have to set the boundaries with employees. I'm the boss, you're the employee. It doesn't mean you have to, like, be a hard ass or be rude or act like you're better than them. But I think she just felt like we were friendlier than we were.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Where do you think that line is? Because that is an interesting one. And I. And I also agree with you because I know with our employees, it's. And we've gone through this transition where we wanted to get a lot of a players. We want to replace what we had before. And there's a significant difference in the culture. It's significantly better where we have fun. Yeah, we all. We all get along. But there's also this professionalism where they. They, you know, I don't ask for them to call me boss, but, you know, they'll call me boss. Things like that. Where, again, I don't ask for that, but there is, like, this. They show me this respect. I show them respect. Those lines are never really bl. Lured. So where. But where is that line? Because it could be. It can be tricky.

[Ashley]

You know, I don't know that I found it, because I like to be liked. And so I don't think I've quite found where the line is. And I. And it's something that I have to work on personally and figure out, like, at what point are we getting too friendly to where they feel like they can be sassy and talk back to me and, you know, when I'm giving them feedback, they can argue with me. And I just. I haven't quite found that yet.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, if you find it, let me know. It is tough. All right, so let me. Let me read as another Instagram post. It was from July of 2020.

[Ashley]

So before.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yes, we're in the middle of the pandemic, but we're all just doing the very best we can. We all have different dreams and goals. We parent differently. We have different hobbies and talents. We have different beliefs and perspectives and life experiences, and that's all beautiful and powerful.

[Ashley]

Did I write that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

You did.

[Ashley]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And what I find interesting about it is it encapsulates practicing law, because I know you didn't intend it that way, but there is no right way. There is several different ways. We're all just trying to get through this. So I wanted to get your perspective on it, even though you may not remember writing that.

[Ashley]

Oh, gosh. I mean. But I remember that time so well, because it was a very divisive time, I think, like, for our nation in general.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It was odd.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it was. It was super weird. Really divisive. We were trying to learn how to do that. I'm, like, homeschooling my kids, which I never wanted to do. That was never a thing that I wanted to do. Oh, it was July, so they weren't in school. But, like. And I think you have to. I mean, you have to let people do and be who they are, you know, do the things that they're going to do and be who they are and accept that. And accept that not everybody's going to believe the same way that you are, and they're not going to do things the same way that you're going to do to do them. And, you know, especially right now, like, we're in an election year. We just had an assassination attempt on a presidential candidate. And, you know, I. Whoever is going to win the presidential election, it's going to cause even more division than there already is, if that's even possible. And I think if you step back and you look at it and you just say, it's so great that we can just. We can do what we want to do, like, we Live in a country where, like, as a woman and as a mom, I can be a lawyer, and I can own my own business, and I can practice whatever religion or not practice religion. And I think that is beautiful. And so I think, you know, if we allow everyone else to have that, you know, I mean, I don't have to agree with someone's political beliefs, but I could still love them as a person and a human. And honestly, Covid, like, really helped me be a lot more tolerant and where I think it kind of did the opposite for some people, but for me, I just, like, I just had to learn to be tolerant of people who didn't feel and think the way that I did.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so the last question I ask you is going to be. It may seem out of left field after that line of questioning, but we were talking about, you know, dreams and everything before, and what would it take? This is maybe a tough one, but what would it take to convince you to give it all up and walk away from your practice?

[Ashley]

Well, I would need to know that I could continue to live the lifestyle that I'm living now. So it would, like, a potential, you know, my. I'm in a really good position where my husband has a great job. I could walk away right now, and we would actually be fine. We would be able to pay our bills and, you know, continue to pay our mortgage and live in our home. And so I'm in a different position than some people find themselves in. And which is. And I'm like, I am going to acknowledge that's a really privileged thing to say. So, like, yeah, it's annoying and privileged. So I think for me, it would take knowing that my family would, like, would be taken care of, but that I am doing something else that I really love. So if, you know, I already did the music thing. I did it for almost 20 years, and it was fun to do it at that time. I think there's a time and season for everything. And so some people say, like, what if you were offered a job to go and play the keyboard for a touring band? For me, I'm like, I. Like, I kind of already did that, so. And it was. It was fun, but I don't know that I. I'm. I'm in my 40s. I don't know that I want that anymore. And so it would take. It would take knowing that whatever I'm doing is fulfilling for me and my family.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's interesting that you say that, because actually, this is where I wanted to go. It took me A second to remember the person that talked about this, but Eric. Eric Weinstein talks about this. And he talked. I don't know if you know who that is, but he was talking about how what we should actually be teaching kids, instead of teaching them to follow our passion, it's actually to figure out what you're really good at and do that thing. So even if you're not passionate about it, figure out what you're good at and do that. Don't worry about following your passion, because what happens most of the time. And I did not intend to bring this up and talk about this, but it is interesting that you said that because. Let's use music for a second. Yeah, right. And I'm sure you were great at it. I'm not saying that you weren't, but there was a point where you had to give that up. And then you. You're. You're good at being a lawyer. You're great at being that. So I wonder what your thoughts are, because if many times people follow their passion and. And they fail. We talked about failure a little bit, but sometimes it can be really, really devastating. And it can have. It's more devastating than it is helpful. So I wonder. I wonder what you think about that, because that's something that's interesting, because I know I'm guilty of telling my kids, hey, follow your passion. What do you really want to do?

[Ashley]

Yeah, well, I completely. You said it's Eric Weinstein. Oh, my gosh. And maybe I've heard him on a podcast before, because I. I remember hearing about this and 100 agreeing with it, because I think for me, when music became work, it was no longer fun. And so. Meaning. When I. When I first started college, I had no intention of being a lawyer. I actually went in on a music scholarship and realized I hated it so much because, number one, I hated playing classical music on the piano. Hated it. And it was just so much work, and I couldn't do it for fun. And so I think some people find when they follow their passion, and then it just becomes work. And so I still play music as a hobby, but I don't do it for work. And so it's a separation where I can still have something to do that I enjoy. But I also think, like, following your passion could be a terrible idea because what if you're passionate about singing, but you really suck? Like, what if you're one of those people that go on American Idol and, like, why aren't these people's parents telling them that they're terrible? Like, do your parents hate you? And so someone needs to tell you the truth. Yeah. And so just, like, because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you're necessarily good at it. What I do know, like, for me, I'm good at connecting with people, and I'm a hard worker in general. So whatever I do, like, I work hard at it. And so I think you can find. You can find a little bit. If you're doing something that you're good at, you're going to eventually, like, learn to like it. And I think it's a very. I'm an elder millennial. Maybe, like, I'm a xennial, because I'm, like, right there in between Gen X and a millennial.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't like to admit it either.

[Ashley]

Yeah, yeah. I think we're around the same age. And. And so, like, for me, I remember people just being like, it's such a millennial thing to follow your passion. Like, you know, if you don't love what you're doing at work, then quit your job and do something you love. And for me, as, you know, like, more on the Gen X side, I'm like, well, that's bull crap. Like, if you're doing work, work, and then find something you love to do and do that on the side.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you know the study about the kids and getting cookies for playing chess? Do you know the study?

[Ashley]

No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So there's a study about these kids that were playing chess, and what they would do is the ones that would win, they would give them a cookie. And what they found was, is the ones that did that, they stopped playing because they didn't. They lost their joy for it. So when you were mentioning the, you know, getting paid for it, it became a job. There is a lot to that, and I do think it does become dangerous. And when you. When you were talking about you want to be a litigator, you start making money. I do think that that that changes things, and it does make it a little bit more difficult to follow our passion. So let's end with. For the young lawyers that they want to have this beautiful career and do all these great things and. Or new law firm owners, what advice would you give to them so that they can do an excellent job, but then also follow their passion at the same time without ruining it?

[Ashley]

So I would say don't listen to any of your professors in law school, because they're all going to tell you to go to big law or do a clerkship. And I mean, I'm not saying that nobody's happy in big Law. What I am saying is that most of my friends that followed that advice, like, either went away from big law or they're just working crazy hours. And maybe some of them like it and they don't. But that there are so many things you can do as an attorney, you know, because I just thought a litigation is the way, right? This, like, this is what you have to do to be a successful lawyer. And, like, it was sexy too, right? Like, oh, yeah, I'm a litigator.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's all the movies and shows, right?

[Ashley]

Like, it seemed suit. Everyone's like, oh, are you, like, suits? And I was like, yeah, which nobody. Like, I freaking hate that show. I actually love the show. I just hate what people perceive my career is. And so I think exploring. If you would have told me five years ago that I would be helping dentists buy and sell their practices, I would be like, that sounds like the most boring thing ever. But I love what I do. I love what I do. I love my clients, and I love that I'm my own boss and I don't have five senior partners telling me five different things, like five ways to draft a freaking complaint. And so explore as many areas as you can. Don't necessarily listen to your law schools that are telling you clerkships and big law are the only way to go because. And they'll all tell you not to go solo. No one in law school was ever like, yeah, you should start your own firm. And. But it was, number one, the best decision that I ever made. And it's taught me so much, and I've grown so much, and I really love it. And I love it way more than being a litigator and working for someone else.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Thanks, Ashley.

[Ashley]

Thank you.