Resilience, Empathy, and the Business of Family Law with Tarl Johnson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer – "Resilience, Empathy, and the Business of Family Law with Tarl Johnson"

Introduction

In the April 1, 2025 episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux engages in a profound and candid conversation with Marco Brown, a seasoned family law attorney. The discussion delves deep into Marco's personal journey of overcoming adversity, his empathetic approach to family law, and the strategic business insights that have shaped his successful practice. This episode is a compelling exploration of resilience, empathy, and the intricate balance between personal experiences and professional excellence in the legal field.

Personal Background and Overcoming Adversity

The episode opens with a poignant reflection on resilience. Marco shares his harrowing childhood experiences, detailing the abuse he endured and the challenges he faced while growing up.

• Marco Brown [02:31]: “My biological father was the first one in my life dealt with every kind of physical and sexual abuse a child can at his hands and other people while there with him.”

Marco recounts the trauma inflicted by his biological father and stepfather, highlighting the profound impact these experiences had on his early life. Despite these hardships, Marco emphasizes the importance of accountability and making positive choices.

• Marco Brown [02:11]: “I can either become the monsters I dealt with or I can do everything I can despite them and make sure that that doesn't exist in the world.”

His journey took a pivotal turn when he was placed in a children’s home at the age of ten, providing him with stability and supportive role models that fueled his resilience.

Professional Challenges and Empathetic Approach to Family Law

Transitioning to his professional life, Marco discusses the emotional toll of family law and how his personal experiences inform his empathetic approach to clients.

• Marco Brown [05:30]: “The biggest part is having what I refer to as my come to Jesus talk of, like, let's be honest about what the facts are. Let's look at it and let's not deflect responsibility because judges hate it and the court hates it in general.”

Marco’s commitment to focusing on the well-being of children involved in family law cases sets him apart. He prioritizes creating safe environments for children, even when dealing with clients who may exhibit challenging behaviors.

• Marco Brown [05:24]: “Instead of, okay, this is about the parents. Let's work on what's safe for the kids.”

He shares his stringent policy on client honesty, which fosters trust and integrity in his practice.

• Marco Brown [07:04]: “My clients only lie to me once about something material because then they're not my clients.”

Connection with Marco Herman and Firm Growth

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Marco’s association with Marco Herman, the managing partner of Brown Family Law. Marco Brown elaborates on how joining the firm has been instrumental in his professional growth and offers insights into effective law firm management.

• Marco Brown [35:03]: “The biggest thing is, is they have teams, and then they have a team lead. So instead of dealing with the teams, you just deal with the team lead as a manager, and then you let them handle it.”

He praises the firm's structured approach to management and marketing, which has allowed him to focus on client relations and business expansion without being bogged down by operational complexities.

Management and Business Growth

Discussing his role in the Arizona office, Marco outlines his strategies for managing and scaling the practice. He emphasizes the importance of systems, accountability, and maintaining professional relationships.

• Marco Brown [51:24]: “Setting up systems so that I know what. Who has in control of what system. So there's accountability.”

Marco also shares his vision for expanding the Arizona office to surpass the success of the Utah branch, highlighting the need for aggressive growth strategies and effective marketing.

• Marco Brown [35:58]: “My vision is that it's more successful than Utah.”

Personal Life and Work-Life Balance

Throughout the conversation, Marco reflects on the delicate balance between his demanding career and personal life. He acknowledges the challenges of prioritizing self-care while being deeply committed to his family and clients.

• Marco Brown [20:47]: “There's so many things in my life and in my world that I cannot or won't do for myself, but I'll move heaven and earth for them and my wife.”

Marco commits to improving his personal well-being by engaging in activities that promote physical and mental health, ensuring he remains effective both personally and professionally.

• Marco Brown [56:19]: “Going to the gym with my daughter actually is something that, you know, my... my oldest one is highly, highly physically active. Dance and tumbling and. And so she wants me to go with her.”

Insights and Key Takeaways

1. Resilience Through Adversity: Marco’s story underscores the power of resilience. Despite a tumultuous childhood, he harnessed his experiences to cultivate empathy and strength, both personally and professionally.

2. Ethical Practice in Family Law: Marco emphasizes the ethical responsibility of attorneys in family law to prioritize the safety and well-being of children, demonstrating how personal empathy can enhance professional effectiveness.

3. Strategic Firm Management: His insights into law firm management highlight the importance of structured systems, accountability, and effective delegation in scaling a successful practice.

4. Balancing Personal and Professional Life: Marco’s commitment to family and self-care illustrates the essential balance needed to maintain long-term success and personal fulfillment.

5. Mentorship and Continuous Learning: Joining Brown Family Law provided Marco with invaluable mentorship and business acumen, illustrating the benefits of aligning with a supportive and growth-oriented firm.

Conclusion

This episode of Maximum Lawyer offers a deeply insightful look into the life of Marco Brown, blending his personal journey of overcoming adversity with his professional strategies in family law. Marco’s emphasis on resilience, ethical practice, and strategic growth serves as an inspiring guide for attorneys seeking to balance personal empathy with business acumen. His candid discussions provide valuable lessons on managing a successful law practice while maintaining personal well-being, making this episode a must-listen for legal professionals aiming to excel both personally and professionally.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Marco Brown [02:11]: “I can either become the monsters I dealt with or I can do everything I can despite them and make sure that that doesn't exist in the world.”

• Marco Brown [05:30]: “The biggest part is having what I refer to as my come to Jesus talk of, like, let's be honest about what the facts are.”

• Marco Brown [07:04]: “My clients only lie to me once about something material because then they're not my clients.”

• Marco Brown [35:03]: “Setting up systems so that I know what. Who has in control of what system. So there's accountability.”

• Marco Brown [35:58]: “My vision is that it's more successful than Utah.”

• Marco Brown [51:24]: “Setting up systems so that I know what. Who has in control of what system. So there's accountability.”

• Marco Brown [56:19]: “Going to the gym with my daughter actually is something that, you know, my... my oldest one is highly, highly physically active.”

These quotes encapsulate Marco’s philosophy on resilience, ethical practice, and strategic management, providing listeners with actionable insights and inspiration.

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Tarle]

If you decide to work with them.

[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Marco Brown]

This is Maximum Lawyer with your host Tyson Mutrix.

[Tarle]

Tarle. So there is a quote by Marcus Aurelius and it's the happiness of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts. And knowing your background, I wonder what that quote might mean to you and I'll read it to you again. The happiest of your life depends on the quality of your thoughts.

[Marco Brown]

Honestly, you know, for someone that's gone through as much as I have, it be easy to turn around and just say, hey, life is miserable. Humans are miserable. So when it comes to that, the quality of thought pertains to where am I going to be. For me personally, it's always been more along the lines of I can either become the monsters I dealt with or I can do everything I can despite them and make sure that that doesn't exist in the world.

[Tarle]

And you mentioned the monsters and I was going to ask you about that at some point. Anyways, as you probably know, I find your story to be absolutely fascinating. My guess is that 99.9% of people that have gone through what you've gone through would probably not be in the same chair that you're in. They're in other places. Let's talk about that. Who are the monsters?

[Marco Brown]

So my biological father was the first one in my life dealt with Every kind of physical and sexual abuse a child can at his hands and other people while there with him. And then the second one would be my stepfather growing up. He was not a kind man. Threw me against the wall at one point and left an imprint in my body in the Sheetrock. My mother, to some extent, who was a drug addict and drugged me through being homeless and living in deserts and dealing with that. And then I guess the last one would just be my wartime experience. And it's a totally different beast getting shot at by people. I think the least of them is probably the last one, because I've come to terms with the fact that at least they had a moral compass and they felt like they were doing what was right. And being in the same circumstances, I'd probably do the same thing. So it's not a good thing to be in that position or that situation. But at the same time, I think that's the least of them.

[Tarle]

It's interesting because, I mean, you've been through it a ton. You've given some Cliff Notes of it, but there's way more which we'll get into. But how are you not numb to life at this point?

[Marco Brown]

I was blessed, honestly, in going to a children's home at the age of.

[Tarle]

10, which is not something you normally hear from.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah, well, it was either that or state custody. And at the time, foster homes here were terrible. I have my own plethora of nightmare stories from that. But the home I grew up in, it was 10 of us in the dorm. We had dorm parents who were the closest thing a parent could be without actually being your parent. And then what we called relief house parents, that would come in two days a week. And so my running joke is always, it took three sets of parents to get me through my teens because I was such a bad teenager. And my goal all through my teens was trying to prove that I wasn't worth loving, that the world wasn't a good place. And somehow they managed to love me through it no matter what I did. Stole cars and ditched school and got in fights. And every time I come home and there was a punishment, but it was always, I still love you. And so that is what has pushed me through. It was those role models, those experiences that showing to me if there's still light in the world.

[Tarle]

Do you ever come across clients because you do family law? Do you ever come across clients that you can tell that they're not good plan, like just they're bad parents?

[Marco Brown]

Oh, absolutely. I actually burned out of family law for A year and took a break because of situations like that and changing my mindset to coming back to whenever a child's involved. Instead of, okay, this is about the parents. Let's work on what's safe for the kids. So if I have that parent that I'm like, I know you're not the good guy, then I look at it from a perspective of how do we get it so it's safe for this child. Right. What, what do we need to do to get you to the point that this is a good thing for the child? And there's some clients too, where I've had to tell them, no, I'm not the right attorney for you. You need to find another one. Because I have ethical issues and can't represent you because of this.

[Tarle]

In the situations where you, like, you continue representing, representing them, how do you counsel them?

[Marco Brown]

The biggest part is having what I refer to as my come to Jesus talk of, like, let's be honest about what the facts are. Let's look at it and let's not deflect responsibility because judges hate it and the court hates it in general. And so it's about, let's be accountable for it and how do we repair that? How do we fix that? And so a lot of them, it ends up being like anger management counseling. Sometimes it's, hey, let's get you into a substance use program or something to deal with that, those underlying issues so that when they do come back, they're good for the child.

[Tarle]

Yeah, I used to have something similar when it came whenever I did criminal defense, where it was the situations where all of the evidence was very clear that the client had done it, the client was not owning up to the fact that they had done it. And it was putting me in a really tough situation because it was very clear and they knew it was very clear, but they just wouldn't want to take the plea. But remember in basic, where they had basic training, where they had like the Amnesty box, and you go into the booth, booth. And I can't remember what they called it. There was a name for it, and I can't remember. I talked about it early in the podcast, but I can't remember. Do you remember the name for it?

[Marco Brown]

It was always the Amnesty box for us.

[Tarle]

But there was, There was something. They had some fun name for it. But you'd go into this, this booth, there was the box where you could put, like, any, any contraband. But I had it, I had that talk with them, kind of like your come to Jesus talk where it was like, listen, now's the time. Like, I'm not. We're not going any further with this thing we got. I gotta know. So I found it to be a very effective strategy. Yours is just a different name. It's the same freaking thing. Yeah.

[Marco Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Tarle]

So it's generally. Have you found that to be successful?

[Marco Brown]

Yeah. And. And that in conjunction with my other rule that I always tell clients up front, which is my clients only lie to me once about something material because then they're not my clients. And so you combine that with those conversations of like, don't lie to me.

[Tarle]

Yeah.

[Marco Brown]

And. And it is. It is very effective with clients because either, A, they have that moment of truth and epiphany, or B, they lie to me. And then I look at them and say, okay, I can't proceed with you anymore because I can't trust you.

[Tarle]

It's a good rule. Walk me through that conversation, because that is. I think it'd be helpful to people.

[Marco Brown]

So I tell clients right up front when they're retaining us. Hey, look, like my rule with my clients, because I've been lied to, I. I went to a court hearing where the individual claimed he ran from the cops because he was black and scared. And then during the court proceeding, it turned out he was running from the cops because he shot at baby mama's house. So that's where this rule came about. And so right up front, I kind of tell my clients, look, I'll. I'll do my job. I'll do it efficiently. I'll do it effectively. I can't if you lie to me. And so, you know, tell me the truth and. And we'll deal with it. And so that's always the conversation. And that's exactly how I tell them, is my clients only lie to me about something once that's material. Right. It's. It's normal for people to lie sometimes about little things. Right. Oh, I did this yesterday, and it was a week ago. That's not a material thing. You know, I ran because I was scared of the cops versus I ran because I shot at the apartment. That's a material issue. And I can't represent you anymore because ultimately, to me, I have other clients to deal with. I have my reputation with the judges, which affects every client, even this one, let alone the next few hundred I'm going to deal with in front of this judge. And so I have to weigh all of my client's interests against that one client's interest. And if they're competing, to me it's an ethical obligation to get out.

[Tarle]

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's wise. All right. I do want to come back because I definitely don't want to gloss over your background. I think it's something. I don't know. You may get sick of talking about it, but it's. To me, it's something where I can look at and I can say, listen, Tarle's been through this, and I have no. I have no excuses. And that's why I think that there's a lot of value that people hear it, because it's just. People will have tough times in their life, but it's probably nothing like what you've been through. And so if you don't mind digging more into it, let's start with what are. What are some lessons that you learned growing up that you've been able to apply as an adult? That it may be just don't do some of these things. But what are some of those lessons?

[Marco Brown]

That's a good question. The biggest one, and I think I hinted at it earlier, is we have a decision in life. Every one of those people that did something wrong knew at some point it was wrong, right? I mean, at some point, they had to stop and look at it and say, okay, I know this is the wrong decision, and I'm still going to make it. And so accountability is a big one with me. The other rule I always have is, like, just don't hurt kids. Right? Like, I can deal with adults fighting. I can deal with all of that, but when it comes to kids, I'm almost overly protective of them, you know? And again, we. We either become the things that we hate or we live on to ensure that they don't exist.

[Tarle]

I think that. I think that's. That's seems. I think it's obvious to. To most people, but some it's not. You know, if I remember correctly, because you and I. Was it in Scottsdale that we. We sat down.

[Marco Brown]

Vegas.

[Tarle]

It was Vegas. It was Vegas that we sat down. We're. We're talking. Wow, that was that. It feels like so long ago, but we had a lot of fun out in Vegas. I think it was eight. Eight years old that you were kind of out out and with your brother. Is that what.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah, so. So I'll. I'll give you the. The thumbprint version, and I don't want to gloss over.

[Tarle]

I think some of the details are important, so.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah, so. So my biological father was very, very abusive. In fact, one of my earliest memories is like, him looking for me to beat me and then beating my mom to a pulp on her front porch while I was hiding underneath it. And to this day, I still remember looking up and just seeing her bloodied as she's staring down through the cracks at me, knowing right where I'm at. And then when I was probably three or four, they got divorced. And then a family friend kidnapped me after the proceedings, took me to California. I was there for about a year, year and a half before I was recovered by police. And then my mom brought us here to live with her. And my then stepdad, he had severe PTSD and his own set of issues and was involved in a lot of illegal activity.

[Tarle]

What was that from the ptsd?

[Marco Brown]

If you know, he was a Vietnam vet and so his job was to go in tunnels and clear them out. And so I can only imagine the horrors he faced. But he never really dealt with his issues. He just self medicated them with a lot of drugs. And then from there, about 8 years old, my mom got thyroid cancer. And so she got a thyroid taken out. And to resolve her energy loss, she decided to start using methamphetamines. And so from there I became homeless. Between her rehabs here and in Nevada, lived on the streets. Spent most of my sixth grade year in elementary living out of a tent out at Lost Dutchman State Park. This summer, after sixth grade, a local youth pastor was like, hey, I've got some room. Why don't you come stay with us? So I stayed with them and things started to go well. And then he found out he had hepatitis and was like, I won't have the energy. I got to focus on my kids. Like, that's not fair to you. So we got to find somewhere else for you. And so that's where Sunshine Acres, the children's home, came in. So I went there, was raised there, like I said, had my own issues throughout my teens. Like, yeah, I was the child who my parents, my dorm parents would say, hey, don't do this, here's the consequence. And I go, well, it's cost benefit analysis. It's worth the punishment. I'll see you later. And then at 18, started working two jobs. 19, figured I wasn't going anywhere. Joined the military, got married to my high school sweetheart, went to Korea, went to Sauder City, Al Naf, Iraq, all that fun stuff. Got out of the military, he was out for about three or four months. And my first wife had OD'd herself on medicine. About a year later on the dot, her sister committed suicide Left a suicide note to me and then finally recovered from that, Met my girl's mom, got married to her, went through law school. Get out, find out. And I'm not gonna get into it. In case my girls ever watch. I don't. When they're adults, I'll get into that portion of it, but I protect them from it. So anyhow, so went through all of that with her mom, lost custody of them for like six months, dealing with a bunch of false allegations. Finally got them back. Was single for about two years and then two or three years and met my. My now wife, who convinced me that as much as I love my single life, I loved her more. And so been married happily. And now I've got, between my two and her three, we've got five preteen and teenage girls. So that's its own nightmare.

[Tarle]

So you mentioned your. Your stepdad, he had ptsd and he obviously brought that into the household. How do you pre bringing your background into the household?

[Marco Brown]

So my girls understand that I just refer to them as, like, you know, issues from being a soldier, right? So, like, my girls know not to come in and shake me, to wake me up, they'll come in and tap my foot. Because if you come in and shake me, then I often wake up ready to fight because I don't understand or know where I'm at. So there's. There's things that I've addressed with my girls and I've built my life around. So to them, it's just. It's normal, right? Like, hey, Dad's having a bad day. He's going to go off and do his own thing. And now that my wife is involved, she has been a godsend in that aspect because it's like, your dad's having a bad day. Keep it out here, and I'll take care of it in the same thing. Like, you know, I've never hit my girls. I try not to raise my voice with them. There are certain things that I look at and I'm again, I'm very protective about with them, even to the extent of, like, you know, some boy next door was yelling at my daughter, and I'm like, hey, nope, that's not how boys treat girls. That's not okay. And so they know that. And to them, I'm just their safe place. But they also know you don't complain to dad about what we're eating for dinner because he's gonna tell you one of his stories. Like, you don't complain about the fact that there's anything about the house. Like, if there's an issue to fix, that's one thing, but complaining is another. And so they know a little bit about my past, but I keep most of it from them intentionally until they're older.

[Tarle]

Are you a good father?

[Marco Brown]

I think so.

[Tarle]

Where did you learn that from?

[Marco Brown]

From my. My dorm parents, honestly, so I still refer to them as my parents. So my kids have three sets of grandparents. You know, one of my dads is a pastor. We go to the church, and we sit in the pastor's family section. So that's where I learned that from, is. Is those men were amazing examples. And the one that's the pastor is honestly one of, if not the best man I've ever met in my life.

[Tarle]

What was that. That stark contrast? Like, where you had your biological father and then you had someone that. It's like an. An angel, maybe to you. Like, what was that? How did you. I guess how did you. You had to juxtapose those two. And then how were you. How did you just come to terms with that? Because it's got to be a really tough thing as a kid.

[Marco Brown]

I didn't as a kid, to be honest. It took me until probably my mid-20s to early-30s to begin to process it. And then once I had kids, I was able to truly process it because I didn't understand. And for me, it was always just, well, you know, you're doing that because you have to. It's your job. Right? You don't really love me. And then after having kids, being able to process, for lack of better terms, the hell I put them through and being going, okay, you don't do that for money, right? You do that because you care. And how. How do I become that? Right? How do I replicate that with my own kids?

[Tarle]

Do you ever tell your clients your story?

[Marco Brown]

Little bits and pieces. If. If I need to, because I think it will advance their stance or their case. Otherwise, I try to keep a very professional distance from them because I don't want my story to be theirs or vice versa.

[Tarle]

Do you ever talk about it in any marketing that you do?

[Marco Brown]

I haven't. There's. There's some back and forth with it. I think that there's some leverage to it with marketing. But I also have worked very hard on trying to get past the mindset of, like, this is my story versus this is my story now. And so trying to change those chapters is. Is. Has its own difficulties for me sometimes. And so I'll leverage it for clients when I need to, but otherwise, I don't really do that. I've used it to some extent for, like, motivational speaking, and I've done a little bit of that with some of the schools. But. Yeah. So I guess the short answer is not really.

[Tarle]

Yeah, I. I wonder why not? And what. I guess, what are the difficulties? You mentioned the difficulties. Wonder, or are those just excuses?

[Marco Brown]

A little bit of both, I think. It's not difficult for me to talk about my past. It's. Some of it's an excuse just because I. I try to not let that be who I am now. But at the same time, I think, especially in family law, there's a very difficult situation in dealing with people who are already, for lack of better terms, emotionally compromised, especially females. Coming from a male, it's very easy for them to have an almost like, heroic white knight type attachment. And so I have to avoid that because obviously there's ethical issues, but there's also personal ones.

[Tarle]

Sure.

[Marco Brown]

And so I don't want those bonds to be too close.

[Tarle]

I get that. I will tell you this. When we talked at dinner, we sat, and I don't know how long we talked, but I felt an instant connection to you whenever I learned your story. I don't know if it was right after you and I talked or during our conversation. I can't remember if I texted Becca or I told her right away, as soon as we're done, I said, we gotta get him on the show. Like, it was like. Right. Because I. I don't think you understand the power of your story. I don't. I really don't think you understand it. That if you were to convey that out to the world, how much more likable? Not that you're not likable now. You know, but it's not what I'm saying.

[Marco Brown]

It's okay.

[Tarle]

Yeah, but how much more likable. You are.

[Marco Brown]

Right. And I don't disagree with that. Again, the. The issue is, for me is in family law, right. If I was in criminal, if I was in PI, Any other area, I think I would be much more open to it. But the difficulty I have, and it was the same thing because I did. I did group therapy once upon a time, is dealing with clients who end up with these emotional attachments that are just not appropriate and it creates its own set of hardships.

[Tarle]

I understand. I understand that part of it. And I agree with the last part about, you know, you don't want the emotional attachments. I do think you could, from a marketing standpoint, at least talk about it like you put it out there, like, for example, like your bio, you know what I mean? Like, you know, on your website you could. There's ways of doing it without creating too strong of an attachment. It does seem at some point like a switch was flipped and you went from old Tarle to new Tarle. And I wonder when did that happen actually?

[Marco Brown]

So it's still a work in progress. And I'll tell you, the Mastermind conference, and I'm not paid for this or anything else, but I will preach that. That had a lot of effect on me as well in the ongoing process. Right. One of the things I realized there was, somebody had said, hey, like, part of my problem is growing up poor is the fact that, like, I have this mindset that money's not renewable. It's. It's so spending it right is a hard thing for me to do. And the same with marketing. But a lot of it again is, is my girls. And you know, research and science shows that fathers with, with females tend to be more apathetic or more empathetic and tend to be. Have higher success. And any changes I still needed, I made because of my girls. Like, there's so many things in my life and in my world that I cannot or won't do for myself, but I'll move heaven and earth for them and my wife.

[Tarle]

I think that's. I think it's important. I mean, having some. Something like that in your life. Okay, why am I doing this? Having that. Why? I think that's really, really important. I do, I do wonder, I wouldn't say worry. I do wonder how much you maybe focus on other people and not enough on yourself.

[Marco Brown]

It is an issue, and it's one of the things that my wife and I cover frequently. You know, the running joke in the house is my job's protect her from the world. Her job is to protect the world from me. And sometimes that means she has to protect me from myself because it is an issue. There's very few things I do for myself. And part of that is. Has to do with some, some PTSD and some wartime injuries and some struggles there of like, I don't deserve them because of the things I've gone through and been through. And some of it is just because of the things I've gone through. I just don't have. Protecting myself isn't always in, in my realm of, of thinking, but protecting others, that always will be.

[Tarle]

What are some things that you've wanted to do but that you put off.

[Marco Brown]

Traveling is a big one. You know, I. I've seen all the parts of the world I don't want to see again is the wrong joke. I've seen a few of them I do want to see again, but that's a big one for me. Another one is doing woodworking, for example. Like, that's something I absolutely love. But I also know if I do that, even from the job I have now, like, there's so few people who will be helped by me doing that. And I feel like I almost have an obligation to.

[Tarle]

Interesting. What about the idea that if you don't really take care of yourself, you won't be able to take care of other people?

[Marco Brown]

So that is. That is true, and I will. Like I said, there are so many times my wife will tell me, hey, you're pushing yourself too hard. You have to stop. And she's learned to do it from an approach of like, I can't handle this, because I'll respond to that, rather than, you can't handle this. And so, again, I do think that you have to fill your cup. And one of the things that I have learned along the way that somebody said is, you know, it's great to give to other people. It really is. But if you do that first, it's a terrible business plan because you're going to run out of money, you're going to run out of time, you're going to run out of energy, and then you have nothing left to give, and you have no way out of it.

[Tarle]

It's true. And that's kind of. That's kind of what I was getting at, is that I do wonder if there's a certain point where your cup is going to run empty because you've not been filling it up. Because I do know how much you care about your. Your. Your kids and your wife. Because you. Whenever I first talked to you, you definitely talked about it a lot. It's been a focus of this show, obviously. But I do think there's something you need to start focusing on yourself. Just because I like you, I think you're awesome, and I would hate for you to kind of burn out as family, especially with family law. Family law is a practice area that those of you that do it. I've handled three family law cases, and I don't want another one ever again. It's. It's just as, you know, it's. It's a tough one. But why family law? I wonder why you got into family law.

[Marco Brown]

Honestly. I got into it because for many years, it was about people that. That needed help. And for many years, I did it exclusively pro bono, and so my clients would pay the cost, and then at the end of them, I'd tell them, look, if you want to give me a tip, that's great, but if not, I understand. And so originally, that's what got me into it, and then it just turned into this thing of just, you know, now I've got so much experience and time in it, I'm kind of back myself into a corner with it.

[Tarle]

Okay, with that phrasing, we're gonna stay. We're gonna stay here. Why wouldn't you just assert anew learning?

[Marco Brown]

Honestly, there's. There's a lot of pain to it, and it is a lot of drain. And I don't know that I have the energy in it for me to go through that process again. And honestly, again, it's about helping people. And when I did burnout before, coming back with the mindset of, like, when it's two individuals divorcing without kids, that's a whole different approach. But when kids are involved, let's focus on them. And so that's the part that gets me through it is. Is the stories where, at the end of the day, like, I get to see the client or the kids two years later, and they're in a great place. And that's what kept me coming back to it.

[Tarle]

Yeah. So you. You know Marco Brown really well, and we'll talk about your connection in a little bit. But Marco and I, we're in agreement on the whole idea about passion. I think it's important that finding your why is way different than what your passion is. And he and I are a firm believer that you find something to do, you found fame, a lot to do, and then you get really, really good at, and then you become passionate about it. Because most people think that what you do is you find something that you're really, really passionate about, and people struggle with that. They go do that thing, and then they stop being passionate about it because they're not good at it, and they've got it in reverse. You find the thing to do, you get really, really good at it. And, like, sounds like that's what you've done, and you become passionate about it. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Marco Brown]

I'd have to disagree with both of you on. On a very interesting basic level. You know, my dad grew up with this saying that you do what you love for work, and you'll never work a day in your life. I think that the caveat, though, is people become Passionate about things they're not good with. And. And that's where you're. You're looking at. I think that the flip side of it is if you're passionate about it and you're good at it, pursue it. Right. Like, for example, I have a neighbor who builds guitars as a second job, Loves it, but he cuts himself short on it. And so instead of pursuing it, he's a teacher. And there's some things he enjoys about it, but he doesn't love it. And so I look at it, and with everything I've learned from Marco and just the position I have there, I look at it, and I'm like, why pursue something you don't like love? Because there's no. There's no reason for it. Right? Like, and part of it with me is I look at it and I'm like, look, from a financial standpoint, it would be dumb. Like, I. I've. I've got myself into this position for lack of better terms, and. And I am passionate about it now to some degree. But if I look back at it and could do all of this all over again from 20 years ago, I would have stayed being a carpenter and a framer. I kept my life simple, loved it, and. And turn that into a business and an industry that I loved.

[Tarle]

So let me give you a little pushback. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna try to convince you. It doesn't matter. We can all disagree. I like whenever people disagree with me. I actually love it because it opens up for more conversation. But I think one of the main reasons that people are so unhappy. It's not the main reason, but one of the main reasons is that we've been talking now for two decades about, you know, find your passion. Find your passion. Find the thing you love. Go do that thing. There's not enough of those things. And whenever people can't find those things, they view their lives as failures, view themselves as failures, and they become unhappy. As opposed to going and finding something that you can do and then, like, really honing in your skills on that thing and getting a sense of pride from it and then becoming really good at it, and then you become passionate. And that's really where it comes from, in my opinion. And I don't know what Marker's Marco. Why he thinks that, but that's my viewpoint.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah. And I don't disagree with you on that. From a basic standpoint, you know, if you can't do what you love for a living, then do what you're good at.

[Tarle]

Sure.

[Marco Brown]

Right. And again, if you can't do it because you love it, and I'm going to sound very, probably not the best, but if you can't do it for passion, do it for money. Right. Like, do what you're good at and work yourself into a situation where you can do those things. Right. For example, if I was terrible at law, I wouldn't have gone that route. If I was terrible at family law, I wouldn't have done it. But doing it and getting good at it has. Does provide me with other opportunities. You know, I'm working on getting a shop set up in my back of my house now. I couldn't have afforded all those things if I didn't do family law, if I hadn't done law.

[Tarle]

Sure. Tell us about your connection with Marco.

[Marco Brown]

So my wife called it LinkedIn dating for a while. And so I would go on LinkedIn and look at these positions because I wanted to understand the market. Right, right. What do these people know that I don't? How do things work in their company that are different for me? And so I'd apply for these positions. And what I ended up finding out is like, some of my best of friends have come out of that. I've got amazing connections from it. And so when it came up with Marco, I didn't know anything about him. I was like, you know, I'm gonna look into it. They're looking for managing partner. Like, what have I got to lose? And so I sat down and did the interview. And as part of the interview, he flew me up to Utah to meet the team. And they got to kind of meet me and give feedback on that. And as I met the team, I was looking at it going, these are all amazing people. Like, there's something takes a very particular person to lead. And these people, it's almost like a cult, like, following with him. And then as I met people that were unrelated to the firm, everybody had something good to say about him. And so even still, I was a little bit on the fence. And then he invited us to dinner with him, his wife and his managing partner up in Utah. And they're his wife. And after meeting his wife, my wife and I had a conversation. And honestly, his wife Dem was the determining factor. Like, she is so intelligent. She keeps. Keeps him grounded. She's his sounding board. And I'm like, without her, he. He would be a complete zealot, unhindered and unchained. And I don't know that that would have been a good thing. And then I looked at it, too, and said, hey, you know, even if I'm not making the same, if I'm making more, making less, it's more about the lessons I can learn. Like, he's figured out this business. He's got one of the number one firms in Utah. I mean, and so there's a lot here that either, A, I can pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for, or B, I can help him in achieving his dream, achieve some of my own, and learn these lessons that I can apply other places.

[Tarle]

What drew you to him?

[Marco Brown]

Honestly, he's. He's driven. And I can't put my finger on it, but being in the military, it takes a very particular kind of person for me to go, okay, like, this is somebody I can follow. I tend to be a leader. But with Marco, it was just always. He's so driven as an individual that I was like, you know, I can follow this. And. And honestly, his team, like, they. The way that they talk about him, the way that they interact with him, even. Even somebody that was leaving the firm at the time stopped and talked to me and was like, yo, welcome to Brown Family Law. Like, this is the promised land. Like, it's the greatest experience I've ever had. And so hearing that coming from somebody leaving, I was like, yeah, there's definitely more here than what I'm saying.

[Tarle]

That's pretty incredible. I have a question about the dress code. Is there a dress code?

[Marco Brown]

Oh, for sure.

[Tarle]

What is the dress code?

[Marco Brown]

So. And I'm anti dress code today.

[Tarle]

A little different. Yeah, yeah.

[Marco Brown]

The dress code for. For the managing attorneys, it's always expected that, like, there's a suit. So whenever I go into the office, meet with clients, whatever. I've got the suit on. The suit I wore for the interview, he picked it apart in seconds. I mean, it was like, well, you're. You've got three buttons on one side, three buttons on the other. They're both missing one. Here's what's off. Here's where. This color doesn't match that one in the interview. Right after. Like, after the second interview. Yeah, he just demolished it to the extent that he's like, I will buy you a pair of shoes. Just give me those ones to burn them. And so for Christmas, my wife wouldn't let me, but I almost. I still think I'm going to ship him my old shoes. The ones he wanted to burn. Yeah. Like. And it wasn't meant in a derogatory manner. It was like, look, people expect something from us. We're going to give them the Best of us.

[Tarle]

Yeah.

[Marco Brown]

So this is what I expect of you.

[Tarle]

That's great. That's totally Barco. That's completely. But some of that is growing up, you don't. When you have a certain background like yours, like, you weren't taught some basic things like that. Isn't that kind of interesting?

[Marco Brown]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, even, like, you know, my wife went through, like, etiquette classes and all this stuff, and so there's times around and she's like, you're. You're not doing this. Right? And I'm like, I have no idea. Right. Like, I'm fine walking into a biker bar. I'm fine walking down and sitting down to a thousand dollar plate restaurant. But there are definitely, like, mistakes I make along the way in both places.

[Tarle]

What I think was hilarious is when we were at Zappos, you. I told Marco the story. I was. I was so funny. And I told him I was really hoping he was there, so he would have had to have gone through the same thing you went through. Tell that story about the tie.

[Marco Brown]

So Zappos doesn't allow people to wear ties because that's their company culture. And so they were. They were like, look, if you got a tie, either you can cut it and hang it up, or you got to take it off or wear it around your head. So I. I went to take it off and put it around my head, but it came undone. So I ended up just tucking it into my pocket and just laughing it off. But, yeah, I was the only one there in a suit. It was the only one in a tie. But again, to me, that's the expectation.

[Tarle]

What went through your mind when they said you can cut it and hang it up? Like, what went through your brain?

[Marco Brown]

Oh, this is a silk tie. Absolutely. Not cutting it. Nope. Like, my wife bought this for me. Like, nope, not doing that.

[Tarle]

What do you think Marco would have done?

[Marco Brown]

He. I don't think he would have gone on the tour.

[Tarle]

I don't think. I think he would have left. I really think Marco would have left the building 100%. It would have been a great story. I really wish he was there. We should. We should find a way to get him to go there and see what it does. Oh, yeah, but I already warned him, so he would already know, but he'd have some sort of response.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah, well, either he won't go because he already knows and you've warned him. Yeah, I think that's about where that one's going to go.

[Tarle]

So let's talk about the Arizona office So is it the. Do you run the Arizona office? Is that how it works?

[Marco Brown]

So, yeah. So Arizona right now is just me, and then I've got a digital paralegal up in Utah, and so I run the office. We're working on bringing on more staff right now, and so we're in a position where we can grow it finally. But it's a lot of work for me. You know, I forget how much work it is to launch a company or a firm in a new state. And so right now I'm doing the management, I'm doing the client management. I'm doing all the work. I'm handling all aspects of it.

[Tarle]

What sort of control do you have over marketing and bringing in cases? All that.

[Marco Brown]

So I handle all the consultations. Marco handles all the marketing and intake. That's all done by his team up in Utah, who absolutely are amazing. He works with Don, attorneys, sales, individuals that, again, I couldn't ask for a better team. And then he. Right now, he handles the marketing. And then I believe we're working on a plan that it's one of the conversations I need to have with him is having me more involved in the marketing, especially for Arizona.

[Tarle]

Why is that?

[Marco Brown]

Things like blogs, seeing where it goes, it just. It's a different market here than it is Utah. We're a little more saturated. The laws are different. So things that are getting posted, I need to make sure relevant or factually accurate. And then, yeah, it's just a different market. People here aren't looking for the same things they're looking up for up in Utah.

[Tarle]

Does the marketing side interest you?

[Marco Brown]

Oh, a hundred percent. So one of the things that I have done is, is read a lot about business and marketing. And one of the things that was said, and I agree with that 100%, is if you want your company to grow and make as much money as possible, take yourself out of everything but marketing, Let somebody else handle the rest of it, and you focus on the marketing.

[Tarle]

What is your vision? And maybe. Maybe this is something that I'm guessing probably does have to come from the top. But knowing Marco and you, you've probably spoken about this. So what is. What's the vision for Arizona?

[Marco Brown]

Marco's vision is. Is, I believe is for it to be as successful as Utah. My vision is that it's. It's more successful than Utah. And that's just, again, based on. On what I've seen. But it's also just my. My personal drive of, like, I can do, do better.

[Tarle]

Marca would have zero problem with it being better than you?

[Marco Brown]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's not to say anything for the attorneys and the managing attorney there. Clay Randall is amazing as a human being. As a managing attorney, he's an amazing individual, and it definitely will be a challenge. But to me, I'm also one of those people that once I have a goal, everything else is just static.

[Tarle]

What needs to happen for that to take place? How do you. How do you get to the point where Arizona, which has a larger population, I believe. I mean, it's got to have a larger population than Utah, but. So I do think it will probably. It's. It's definitely possible. But what needs to take place for.

[Marco Brown]

That to happen right now? Just growth. So it's, It's. We're. We're establishing a reputation. So it's basically just marketing and bringing on attorneys. That's really where we're at with it right now.

[Tarle]

Where do you fit in that? Because at some point for that to happen, you're probably at the step back from the day to day stuff.

[Marco Brown]

So Marco always requires his attorneys to do a certain amount of. Of billable hours so that you don't lose your edge. And I agree with that entirely and includes him. Except him.

[Tarle]

Accept him.

[Marco Brown]

Interesting.

[Tarle]

Okay. All right.

[Marco Brown]

But again, I think his approach to it is the same as, again, you remove yourself from everything but marketing. Right. So he's. His importance is more important than him being in the trenches with us. Right. Because he's got a lot more things to manage than any one of us does. But eventually what it'll be is back off from the day to day, working on cases. I'll still have a few of them, and then I'll be managing attorneys. And so up in Utah, I think they've got like 16 to 20 attorneys right now. And so a lot of Clay's day is managing them, setting up, you know, writing SOPs, dealing with issues. And so eventually it'll be the same thing. For me here I was going to.

[Tarle]

Say, what is then, what does that day to day look like? Because it can't look like anything like it is today, because you don't have the time to go out and do any of the marketing here. It's just not possible. So what is the. But what ideally, what does that day to day look like for you?

[Marco Brown]

Ideally, get up, do the morning meetings, spend, you know, between one and two hours on client cases, and then the rest of the day will be dealing with. With the business aspect of it, whether it's coordinating marketing, it's Addressing the SEO, it's, you know, attending the business meetings. It's reporting numbers. It's that aspect of it. And how do we increase these? Right. Like sitting down, looking at it and going, okay, you know, my attorney's short on their billable times this month. How do we fix that? How do I address that? And honestly, that's what I'm great at, is working with individuals.

[Tarle]

In the management side, it seems like you're very entrepreneurial. I mean, from talking to you here and before, I think that's part of the reason why you joined Marco's firm is because you are entrepreneur, which seems kind of odd because, you know, you work for him. But I wonder what your advice is to other attorneys that might have been in a similar position to you when you join Marcos firm. Because it seems like the best of both worlds where you're not dealing with the overhead, but you are in a new market for Brown Law Office, I think, is the name Family law. Brown Family Law. But you see, you have a taste of the, the business where you're, you're running the business in Arizona. And I wonder what your advice would be to other smaller shops that are considering something. Or maybe they're not considering it. Maybe they need to consider it. So what is your advice to. To smaller shops that might find a similar arrangement suitable?

[Marco Brown]

Do you mean as. As far as, like, them finding somebody to work with, or do you mean as far as, like, them growing their own firm?

[Tarle]

Yeah, I'm talking about with working with a larger firm so they can, they can take their smaller shop and essentially just attach it to a bigger shop where they're in a new market. So it works out for the bigger firm because they can, they can expand into a new state, but it works out for you because you can, you can still have that entrepreneurial taste.

[Marco Brown]

Be very careful who you hit your wagons to.

[Tarle]

Okay.

[Marco Brown]

And the reason why I say that is because if Marco was not who he was. Right. Like, there have definitely been times I'm like, I'm done, Marco. Like, this is too much to do all over again. I don't have the same thing to go back to because I've, I've swapped, you know, I've stopped family in my own practice, so I'd have to start it all up there again. And so that. And know your worth. You know, it's easy to say, hey, you know, I'm going to give this up for, for, you know, a set amount of money every month. But then you stop and you look at it. And now I look at it, I'm like, I could have done all of these things but. But I didn't have the knowledge and I didn't understand the worth. Like, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Like Marco compensates me very well. But looking at it from the other perspective of there's a lot of firms out there that wouldn't have done that.

[Tarle]

Yeah.

[Marco Brown]

And there's, I still today get offers from firms that want to hire me and I'm like, no. Why? Because I don't, I don't want to deal with the stress where long term I'm cutting myself short financially and I'm long term increasing the demand on me and my time.

[Tarle]

Yeah. That part is, it's. I do view there's a lot of attorneys that the, the thinking it, it's very short sighted where they might leave to go to another firm and make a higher salary right now. But they're also the first ones to get cut at whenever the, there's a recession or if the market's bad or for what you name the reason they lose a big client. They're. They're the first ones to get cut. And it's more of a short term thing. And I think that's a big problem with employees these days is that they do have that sort of short term thinking. It seems to me with you, you have an arrangement where it's more of a long term arrangement where you can see the future. To see, okay, there's a place for me in this firm.

[Marco Brown]

Absolutely. And I definitely have a long term place in this firm. And that was part of the agreement too. As the firm grows, so does my pay. Right. So I'm incentivized. And that's one of the things that I always recommend to everybody now too is you know, even the firm that we sublet our office from right now, like I've had a conversation with the owner. Look, incentivize your guys, right? Use a carrot and a stick. If they do under a certain amount, then, hey, you know, this is what your pay will be the next cycle. If you do over this amount though, then you get a bonus. Why? Because it's based off of production. They now have an incentive to show up. Not chit chat, not do these other things, but dig into the work and do the extra work.

[Tarle]

Yeah.

[Marco Brown]

You know, and the other thing about it too is, you know, people that hit your wagons to somebody else with a larger firm like that, I understood going into it, my ceiling is much lower with, with brown. Right. Ultimately it's lower than what it would be on my own, but I also understand I'll get there a lot faster. And so understanding that loss and gain for me is part of the analysis, because there's a lot of people out there who look at it and go, it might take me 10 years. And that's probably what it have taken me to get where Marco's at. I would have gotten there and likely have made more. But this is a way to just burrow through that and hit that ceiling so much sooner, even if it's a.

[Tarle]

Little bit lower and the risk is minimal.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah.

[Tarle]

Yeah. Which is. That's. That's good for a lot of people. And at least for now, it lets you focus on your skill set and. And just your skill set. And that's. I think that that's really, really beneficial. With that, I do wonder what your view is on lawyers that want to start a law firm right out of law school.

[Marco Brown]

I did exactly that.

[Tarle]

Yep.

[Marco Brown]

It is lonely. It is difficult. It is also highly respectable. Respectable, in my opinion. But again, understanding the business aspect of it. It doesn't matter if you've been an attorney for 20 years or two days. If you haven't learned it from somebody, you're. It's going to be a lot of expensive lessons.

[Tarle]

Do you think that you would be as good of an attorney if you had not joined Marcus Herman? The reason. The reason I'm asking this, and so I want to make sure I get it all out. It's not that solos that start right out of law school, they're just. I'm not saying that they're bad attorneys. What I'm. I guess what I'm hinting at is you've had some mentorship now. You've. Now you've been in a firm now where you get to see how other firm, other lawyers do it and how another firm does it. Do you think that. And let's take Tarle, you know, doesn't join Brown Law Firm, Family Law, or Tarle, that does. Do you think because you did join a firm, not necessarily Marco's firm, but because you did join a firm where you got to see how other people do it, that's made a better. It made you a better lawyer.

[Marco Brown]

So it's almost a trick question. It is a trick question because we'll.

[Tarle]

See how you answer it.

[Marco Brown]

The answer is yes. With Marco's firm. I know there are other firms where I would have been a much worse lawyer. There's. There's definitely some firms out there, especially in the Family law realm in this area where the attorneys are terrible, and I don't want to learn shortcuts that are going to hurt my clients. Whereas with Marco, I mean, even just the books he gave me to read. Right up front, right? Grant Cardone, seller, be sold.

[Tarle]

Oh, he loves Grant Cardone.

[Marco Brown]

Yeah, well, but the book changed my perspective on selling. Right. And marketing, because everything we do is selling. Even our conversation here, right. Is, you know, one of us is selling something which is a perspective or a point of view, and the other one's purchasing. Yeah, right. Same with court. Same with judges. Right. I have to go in and sell my client's story. I want to go out for dinner. My wife wants burgers. I want pizza. One of us has to sell the other, so it's no longer this dirty, gross, slimy thing that it was growing up. Right. Like, I always think of mattress salesman, the pushy ones, or used car salesmen. Right. But that's not what it is. It's literally everything we do is selling. And so from that perspective, it has changed the way I write my pleadings, the way I argue in court. Like, it has changed so much. And that's just one of, like, a million different lessons I've learned. I mean, like I said earlier, even the Mastermind conference, like, I learned a lot about myself personally through that. And so on a professional level, a personal level, I would not be where I'm at. But I also know if I went to the wrong firm, I'd be a much worse lawyer than I was on my own.

[Tarle]

Yeah, I totally agree with that. What's your favorite sales technique or tactic or. And that may be a bad way of putting it, but people know what I'm talking about.

[Marco Brown]

Honestly, the tactic is figuring out the value of something and then helping the clients understand it. I think that's the biggest thing is getting it into your mindset that what I have is valuable. And if. If you're not signing up, it's because you're not seeing the value in it. So let me help you real quick.

[Tarle]

So let's talk. Stay on this topic. So I want to ask about objections and stuff, too. So I love talking to Marco about objections, and I played a little game with him a little bit on the podcast where I asked him some questions and he had to get past my objections, all that kind of stuff. Do you. Do you get to play around with that stuff, too?

[Marco Brown]

So we do. It's been a whole learning process for me. So part of one of the meetings I go to every day Is we listen to Cardone for 15 minutes every day. Every day.

[Tarle]

Fantastic.

[Marco Brown]

And some of it is great stuff. Some of it, I'm like, okay, I'm a little bored here, Grant, like, got it. But then afterwards, we do role playing every day. You know, this is the objection we're going to work with today, right? Like, I don't have the money or I need to shop around or. Okay, so how do we overcome that? And then for me personally, like, I have it set up so that I can work with the sales team a little bit more on it to improve my ability in doing that. And. And again, they're. They're fantastic at it. Like, they. They will run circles around any attorney any day when it comes to sales.

[Tarle]

So do you all. Is it like. Are these, like, YouTube videos that you're listening to?

[Marco Brown]

No, I think it. I believe it's like one of his classes.

[Tarle]

Gotcha. So, because there's. Is it Sales University or something they've got. No, no, it's Cardone University or something like that online. Is it something like that?

[Marco Brown]

I think so.

[Tarle]

Because we have. We have or have. I don't know if we still have it, but our CARES team, they. They do regular trainings, and we were. For a while, we had that subscription. They were going through that. I don't know if they still are, but I'll have to ask Amy about that to see if they're still going through it. But I. I mean, I find. Even the old stuff, I still find it really good and whether. And it's funny because people, they'll hear his name and they're automatically turned off. I don't know why necessarily, but, like, there. It doesn't matter. His techniques are sound.

[Marco Brown]

Oh, yeah. 100%. And I've. I've seen them, like. And that's the thing is, like, there's so many times clients will come in and be like, oh, you know, I need to think about it. Well, let's talk about why. Let's dig in. Right. Because obviously you're not seeing the value in this. So what part of this are we missing?

[Tarle]

Yeah. What's the most valuable lesson that you think you've learned from. From joining Marco's firm?

[Marco Brown]

Honestly, there's two of them that are competing. The first one was like, sell or be sold. Right. The. The book itself of, like, selling is not a slimy thing. It's not. It's what we do every single day with every interaction. And the other one was more about myself. Right. Like, again, money's renewable. Money. I'M not saying to go out and just blow it all, but also understanding that there's value in the things that we purchase and we get, and to understand that, you know, holding onto it's not going to do anything either, Especially as a firm owner, somebody trying to grow your business, you can't hold onto it. You got to put it into marketing, put it into something, let it work for you.

[Tarle]

I'm not going to do this. And I'm not the point where I'm going to try to drive a wedge between you and Marco. I'm not going to try to do that. That's not at all. Because you're happy and he's happy. I do wonder if you do get the itch, the entrepreneurial itch to kind of start your own firm, how you would address that with Marco? Because my guess is, and I want to make sure I sugarcoat this as much as I can, because I really don't want it to be a wedge, because I know in Marco, I think that he would try to find a way to allow you to scratch that itch while you're still under the Brown family. And so I wonder how you would address that with them.

[Marco Brown]

So I would just address it directly, like, that's the relationship I have with Marco. And my inclination is, is it would go one of two ways. Either, hey, let's figure out how to do that within the firm, or it would be, hey, let me give you advice. Let me give you a hand. Like, if that's really what your dream is, let me help you achieve it. And that's just who he is as a person, right? Like, he will sit down and share whatever he knows with whoever will listen if they'll take the time.

[Tarle]

That's pretty incredible. That's what I would want from a boss. That's fantastic. Well, at some point, I mean, you are going to be. Be a boss whether you're within the firm. And I mean, at this point, it sounds like you. I mean, you want to stick around. That's great. That's awesome. What lessons have you learned from the management in the firm that you are going to use and implement when you're running the Arizona office?

[Marco Brown]

Honestly, and I don't want to sound bad as far as the management side goes, I don't know that there's a lot that I have learned. Like, I've managed other firms. I've dealt with most of the issues, so I don't know that there's a lot that I've learned from my experience there so far.

[Tarle]

Okay, so what are the lessons that. That you've. That you've already known? Because it may be things that. It might be things that they've. They're already implementing that you would use to manage people anyways.

[Marco Brown]

So one of the things that they have is systems, right? And that's one of the things. So, you know, they have teams, and then they have a team lead. So instead of dealing with the teams, you just deal with the team lead as a manager, and then you let them handle it. I guess keeping your scope is a big part of it. Setting up systems so that I know what. Who has in control of what system. So there's accountability. And I guess part of it, too, is just, you know, talking to people, keeping a good personal relationship and keeping it professional, I think is that hard. Juggle on it.

[Tarle]

Yeah. I was listening to Chris Williamson's podcast this morning, Modern Wisdom, and he has on one of the Nelk Boys. I don't know his name. I don't know if you've heard of Nelk Boys. They've got a podcast, it's a show, and they're really close with Dana White, and they talk about how Dana White will do pretty much anything. Like, he's very loyal, like, very reloaded. They gave the example of. They have a few examples of how he's been loyal to them in their show and all that and their growth. He also talked about how there was something where someone wanted to get rid of Rogan, Joe Rogan, you know, and rogue Dana White was willing to basically destroy the company to keep. To keep Rogan, because he's like that loyal and. And how he is to a fault sometimes, you know, he's willing to give up everything to be loyal to his people. I wonder what your view is on that, because it sounds like. Actually, I don't want to say what it sounds like. I want to get your thoughts on it.

[Marco Brown]

So it's a careful juggle, because at the end of the day, destroying a company for one person means that you're destroying the lives of everybody else. And so it's one of those ones where I think loyalty is a good thing, and it's amazing to some extent, but there definitely is a line where it's too far. And I think that by being loyal, by supporting people. And again, I've seen it with Marco, right, where it's like, hey, you know, this employee or this worker is having a hard time. Let's. Let's pay for them to go to therapy, right? Like, we'll pay for it. If they don't have the money and we'll give them some time off. And what ends up happening, though, is when they come back, they'll work twice as hard. They will go bend over backwards. You know, they're not going anywhere. So whatever time and money you put into them is only going to multiply. But there's also the point, like I said, where you get to a point where you're like, this is going to destroy not just my life and their life, it's going to destroy my family's life, 10 other people's family's lives. Like, at what point do you juggle those two?

[Tarle]

Yeah. On the other side of that, though, it doesn't destroy the company. And think about how those. All of those employees that work for UFC view Dana White now because he was willing to have one of their bags. Yeah, that's pretty incredible.

[Marco Brown]

Oh, yeah. And that's the thing. You can't. You can't purchase that kind of loyalty. You can't purchase that kind of devotion in return.

[Tarle]

No, not at all. What are your immediate plans for, like, this year? So you want to grow the Arizona office. You want to. So when you think about this year, this quarter, what's your focus right now?

[Marco Brown]

My focus right now is trying to bring on a paralegal and an attorney to free up some of some of my own bandwidth, because, like I said, right now I'm juggling an almost full caseload along with everything else I do. And so it's. And I see myself burning out pretty quickly. And so bring on somebody to give me a little bit of breathing room and a little bit of relief. And then the goal, my personal goal for the end of this year is to be in a situation with this firm where we have at least four other attorneys on staff. And that's. It's an aggressive goal, but it's definitely achievable.

[Tarle]

That's very aggressive. So that means you're going to need the caseload to support it.

[Marco Brown]

Yes.

[Tarle]

Is that something that is going to be partially on your back?

[Marco Brown]

Yeah.

[Tarle]

Okay, so what are you going to be focusing on from a marketing standpoint to make sure that that happens?

[Marco Brown]

So a lot of it is, is they just recently brought on a marketing firm to handle a lot of it, which may include some TV appearances. And, like, right now I'm doing things like going to the high school, which sounds odd, and teaching about attorneys. Right. To classes of 100 plus kids. So anything I can do to get out there and market right now and push it is absolutely necessary.

[Tarle]

Gotcha. I want to get a commitment from you that for something that you're going to try to focus on this quarter that is personal, that you have wanted to. To do, that you've been putting off to take care of Taro, what is something that you'll commit to before the end of this quarter that you'll start to kind of try it out, see if you like it. I'll give you an example. I did jiu jitsu. Started Jiu jitsu last year. Love it.

[Marco Brown]

Nice.

[Tarle]

What is it that you mentioned some things before, but I've not gotten you to commit to anything. So I'd love to be able to the next time you and I chat, that you've started something to kind of take care of yourself. So what's that going to be?

[Marco Brown]

That's a good question. I don't know.

[Tarle]

And here's. I'm going to give you. I did this with someone in Vegas. I'm not going to be doing this all the time, but there was. I want you to be thinking about this. You talked about your daughters listening to this. Right? So I want you to be able to listen to this in a year and be like, yeah, I committed to that and I did it. So I want to get you to commit to something with that in mind.

[Marco Brown]

Okay. Going to the gym with my daughter actually is something that, you know, my. My oldest one is highly, highly physically active. Dance and tumbling and. And so she wants me to go with her. And that's something that I could do for myself as well.

[Tarle]

Okay. Why is that important?

[Marco Brown]

Just to get back in shape. Honestly, I. I think that our physical well being affects our mental one for sure. And again, there's. It produces endorphins. Like, there's a number of other reasons why. But I want to be around as long as I can, especially for my kids.

[Tarle]

Yeah, I think it's important. All right, Tarl, that's all I have for you. Thanks, man.

[Marco Brown]

No, I appreciate it. Thank you.