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- [00:01]
Tyson Mutrix
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law this is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. Ruma. So what motivated you to transition from commercial litigation to founding your own law firm?
- [01:37]
Ruma
Ooh, a couple of factors. I would say the biggest one was definitely the pandemic coupled with my mom's encouragement. So my mom is an entrepreneur. She owns her own mortgage brokerage. My parents actually work together. And so for the last, over, what, 25 years, I've watched them build a business from scratch. And lasting that long is like quite a feat and an accomplishment. I can't say I was like, super inspired by it because it was hard. Like in 2008 when the market crashed, you know, it was, it was traumatizing. So I started with the safe route of like, you know, going into a law firm job. And then once the pandemic hit, we had a hard look at life. My life was very different than I was living with my ex husband. And you know, my mom kind of paused and was just like, you know, I'm thinking about wanting to actually retire from working. And she's very young, she's like in her early 50s. I was like, retire? What are you going to do with all your time? And she's just like, well, I just think it's time for you to take over the family business. And I was like, I'm Truly flattered. However, I am killing it at being an attorney, and I'm just not ready to. To leave that and, like, leave that degree behind. And I feel like there's still things that I need to do with it. And she was like, well, you've been working really hard for the last amount, like, X amount of years. Like, I had just finished a trial right before the pandemic hit. And between, like, October to when the trial finished In January of 2020, I, like, fell off the face of the earth because we were just in.
- [03:08]
Tyson Mutrix
In trial mode, preparing how litigation works sometimes. Yeah.
- [03:12]
Ruma
Yeah. And she was just like, I mean, is that what you want your life to be? And I was like, well, you know, my boss also told me, like, cases like that only come around once in a lifetime, so maybe I've also peaked, so I'm open to hearing what you have to say. And then she was like, well, if you don't want to quit the law, start your own firm. And I was like, I've worked for these, like, big machines my whole life. Like, I don't know how to start a firm. Like, I've always been. It was like Covington and Burling. Then I went to Fox Rothschild. Then I went to Ackerman in New York City. And these are big, big firms with hundreds of attorneys. And I'm like, infrastructure systems. I'm, like, hiring. Like. I was like, that sounds crazy. And she was like, just start. Just try. See if you like it. And I was like, what would I even practice? Because I wasn't going to open a litigation firm. It was just, like, way too many resources. So she's like, oh, well, why don't you do residential closings? And I was like, that's very different from what I do. And she was like, maybe you'll like it. And so she basically ended up introducing me to an elderly attorney who's definitely, like, on his way to retirement now. And he was telling me about just his storied life of being a solo practitioner. And I was like, well, if I start my own firm, I definitely don't want to be a solo, but I will take all the wisdom you're willing to give me to at least get me started on this area of just residential closings. So that's kind of how it all started.
- [04:34]
Tyson Mutrix
I mean, I wonder why was she pushing it so much? That's my first question is because she clearly was trying to push you in a direction. So I'm just curious, do you know why?
- [04:43]
Ruma
My mom has, like, a weird sixth sense it's like this, like, woo woo stuff. And my entire life, it's like, I always would go against what she would say.
- [04:53]
Tyson Mutrix
That's. I mean, that's what a child does. Yeah. So that's. That's understandable.
- [04:56]
Ruma
And then I would just end up right back, you know, in the initial path that she told me to do. So for once I was like, maybe I won't push so hard on this one. And because I was working remotely during that time, I was actually able to, like, take on clients, like, just under the letterhead of the attorney that was mentoring me and, you know, keep it separate from, like, the law firm work that I was doing. And it wasn't so obvious. Like, I was like, I worked at like, crazy hours anyways, but I was basically able to trial it and see if I wanted to work with just the everyday consumer because I was used to representing big corporations and land commercial landlords and, you know, just like an entity. Right. Like no soul. And now I was working with people, emotions and stress of them, you know, purchasing like, the biggest investment of their life. So it was like such. It was night and day. So I also was like, that's such a shift. And I wanted to make sure that I really, like, enjoyed it, wanted to do it, at least sparked my interest in some way. And then it did. So I was fortunate for that.
- [06:01]
Tyson Mutrix
Do you miss the litigation at all?
- [06:02]
Ruma
I don't, but I really do love having that background, because real estate transactions can get a little dicey. But because of my background in litigation, oftentimes I'm able to just settle it before it gets to a point of, like, these parties suing each other. So in that way, when, you know, like, the opposing counsel or like, the other attorney starts getting a little like, I'm going to sue you. We're going to start sending letters and things like that. Like, I don't freak out because I used to be a little litigator, and I'm like, this is nothing. Like, don't worry about it.
- [06:32]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that's. Those kind of threats. It's like, okay, I've seen these threats before. So that, that, that is nice. It's equipped you to, to face those challenges, that's for sure. Would you say that Covid actually helped you because you were able to kind of start this thing a little bit slower and have a little bit more, I guess, almost a little bit more Runway to. To actually build up at the beginning of the firm?
- [06:56]
Ruma
Yeah, definitely. And especially because everything had transitioned to remote. I wasn't worried about finding an office and I wasn't worried about like getting signage done. Like all of those things were just like out the window. Like all I really needed was WI fi, stable connection and a laptop and a client who was willing to trust me and work with me.
- [07:14]
Tyson Mutrix
Client's important part, right? Yeah, really. So you were, you're still fully remote, right?
- [07:19]
Ruma
I am. We do have an office space which is actually within my parents building, but we barely ever use it. Just because of the way that I've set up the transactions and set the customer expectation that it's just going to be a very remote process with my team. But there are in person components for them. It's just not going to be in my office. It's going to be either at a title company's office or their real estate agent's office because they all still have spaces.
- [07:41]
Tyson Mutrix
I wonder if you, you experienced something similar to what I did whenever I started my firm, where I had left an office that I had a really nice office. Right. I had a view of the river in St. Louis, we had a wonderful balcon and it was just, you had all the perks of being downtown and seeing everything. You also had the downsides of like parking and just walking to the office. It just, it was awful. But part of me was like, I kind of miss like that office like and having that nice office. And then at the beginning though, when you're first starting, you don't have all the nice things. So I wonder if you struggle with that at all.
- [08:16]
Ruma
So I think by the time I opened my firm, like that was August 2021. So we were pretty far into the pandemic at that point. So I had really acclimated to like the remote life. And my firm, at one point they were like, my boss was kind of like, hey, let's come in like once a week to just like regroup, you know, talk to each other and like, you know, like, just like let's come into the office. Like we moved into a nice new office space. Like let's, let's use it. And as I started doing the commute again, I was like, I hate this. Like, I actually didn't care that I had like a nice office with like nice equipment and things like that. Like I was happy to be set up in my one bedroom apartment which also though like overlooked the New York City skyline because I lived right outside the city. So I was like, I have better views from home than I do in my actual office.
- [09:03]
Tyson Mutrix
It's not too bad. That's a pretty good Perk that you don't. Then you don't really have to worry about, you know, missing out on a nice big office or anything like that. So that. That's pretty good.
- [09:10]
Ruma
Yeah.
- [09:11]
Tyson Mutrix
So you are going to be speaking at Max Law Con this year. And I. I do. I beck. I want to make sure I brought that up. And so the. I. I believe the title is going to be the virtual Virtual scale blueprint building a thriving remote law firm and step into your CEO role. Is that right? Is that the. The name of it?
- [09:31]
Ruma
I mean, that's what I submitted. I may tweak it a little as I start working on it.
- [09:34]
Tyson Mutrix
Sure. And that as someone that has. Has done that multiple times, I've gone from one title and whole idea to a completely different one at the last minute. So that drives Becca crazy. But what motivated you to want to talk about that?
- [09:49]
Ruma
So I think the biggest thing is just the world that we live in, and also legal services, the way that they are, I guess, sold now almost. We are just a very remote environment. And there's lots of attorneys who I feel like leave the practice of law because of the old school way of practicing. You know, even back when I was. When I was a college student and I just started cold calling attorneys all over New York City, a lot of them just had the same. Half of them said, don't go to law school. And then the other half said, make sure you get real world experience. So you know what it really feels like. Right. So that didn't deter me. But I knew that when I started my practice, I wanted to do it my way, and I wanted to see if I could do it my way. And so my way was, you know, in the beginning, I kind of created, like, a lifestyle firm, which is, like, I work the hours that I wanted to. Not in the beginning. I mean, I was hustling really hard for year one, not gonna lie, like, round the clock. But in year two and three, like, I was traveling all over the world. I was on a flight every single month. And I was able to practice without any sort of, you know, geographical boundaries, in a sense of, like, I had to be in an office. And I realized a lot of it just is setting the expectation and just being authentic to just how you want to practice law. You know, it just. You can pick and choose how you want to do it, and you will attract the clients who respect that and are okay with that. Because a lot of people need legal services, and there's a ton of lawyers giving them. And we're at A point now, especially with like technology and the way the world is moving. AI is a huge disruptor. I mean it would be crazy if like we weren't able to practice remotely.
- [11:28]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, you actually I've Cherry picked a LinkedIn post of yours. I think it's part of the post. It's not the full post, but it's with just my MacBook, some WiFi and an incredible amount of love and support from my family and friends, I took the leap to start my own practice. And so that was a while ago. But the part that I want to focus on is with just my MacBooks and Wi Fi. That part of it, I think that is an extremely powerful tool that we have where we can practice. Like one of our core values is the bill is the ability to handle cases at any time, anywhere, so we can meet our clients where they are. However, I do think that there is a, there are some downsides to that. So can you talk about some of the downsides where. Because we talk about, we always talk about when it comes to remote, like we're. Our office is hybrid. So I think there's a tremendous amount of benefits of having remote work, but I don't think we talk enough about the downsides of it, I think. So when you talk about some of the downsides of maybe having the MacBook and Wi Fi and basically the ability to work anywhere at any time.
- [12:32]
Ruma
Yeah. So in my first year I ran my business off my cell phone so it like anyone could reach me at any time. And because of that people were like, and, and I would be up at 5am sending emails, which then triggered people to call me. And I was like, wait, no, that's not why I meant to do that. I just like working between 5am and 8am before the actual business hours begin, you know, so I had to learn how to set boundaries in this remote world because otherwise people will reach out to you like at any point. And especially in real estate, because real estate moves so quickly and the New Jersey market is like crazy hot. People want to contact their attorney ASAP and be able to like start, start talking to them right away. And I think the other downside too, I mean I have a fully remote team. I've been working with people like since the day I started my practice and I've never met them in person. And like we have such a strong connection just through like working remotely, talking every day and going through the struggles of like growing my firm from year one to year four. But I'm like, I've never met you in person, which is crazy. So you, you kind of miss a lot of that. And then I also think, like, training is hard remotely. You know, I feel like there's such a learning curve of doing that because you are just sharing a screen and just trying to, like, walk them through what you're doing. There's like, nothing tangible. And I'm like, you know, even I'm sometimes like a, a visual learner. And I like to write things down and like, see things and like, hold something. So I think those are some of the downsides of it.
- [14:03]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that I, I 100 agree. How about culture? How are you able to make. Maintain a good culture, like, keep things fun? I mean, maybe you don't keep things fun, but having spoken to you for now, 20 minutes or so, it seems like you probably do keep things fun. But how are you able to maintain that culture whenever you haven't been in the same room with the person?
- [14:25]
Ruma
Yeah, so we, you know, we have a series of like weekly all team meetings, and we used to have like two all team meetings, but we moved it to one. Now in that meeting, we do, like, an icebreaker to open up the meeting. We do talk about, you know, our files, our deadlines. I also openly share, like, the numbers of the firm, like, where we are.
- [14:43]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, we're going to get into that then. Okay. This is because I'm, I'm, I'm fascinated by people like you that do that. But okay, keep going. What. Keep talking about culture, though.
- [14:52]
Ruma
And then we also have a book club, so everyone gets to submit, like, a book for the month. And we spin the wheel and we book a. Pick a book. And, you know, for this month, we're reading Green lights by Matthew McConaughey.
- [15:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Great book.
- [15:06]
Ruma
It's so good. And, and we all love it because it pulls out, like, people's mindset, their story. It's so cool to see what people resonate with as we read each part. And then in general, I have, like, a very open communication policy with my team. I don't micromanage them. I let them know, you know, there's flexibility in being remote. And then I share, like, I ask, like, you know, like, I ask about their family and, like, what's important to them a lot. One of the things that I do every year is I try to have like a, a one on one that's like, not even like an evaluation, but it's more of like, hey, let's check up, like, talk to me about, you know, your five year plan is your five year plan still, that five year plan. And then I try to do things to get them to achieve that five year plan, you know, so, like, I really get to know my, my employees and my staff.
- [15:53]
Tyson Mutrix
Nice. Very good. Are you listening to the book? Are you reading the book?
- [15:56]
Ruma
I'm listening to it.
- [15:57]
Tyson Mutrix
That's the way to go.
- [15:58]
Ruma
Yeah.
- [15:59]
Tyson Mutrix
I was gonna, I was gonna recommend that you stop what you're doing and stop reading it and start listening to it, because it is a, it's, it's read by Matt. For those of you that have not read it or listened to it. It's, it's, it's read by Matthew McConaughey. And he adds like extra stuff into it, which is, it's just, it's just something about his voice and the way he, he, he delivers it. It's just such, it's, it makes it a really entertaining book.
- [16:20]
Ruma
All the accents and everything, too. Like, you can like, also visualize it just the way that he, you know, he's reading and everything. It's great.
- [16:27]
Tyson Mutrix
Absolutely. All right, so let's talk about the sharing of the numbers, because I think that there's a, there's a lot of potential risk with this, but I think that there's benefit. So tell me about why, why you've chosen to share, but you're just open with all the numbers with your people.
- [16:43]
Ruma
I think transparency is important, especially because I found that the more transparent I am, the more loyal the staff is to, like, they understand that everything we're doing is for their benefit. You know, and real estate can be really nasty sometimes and it can be really intense because it's very cyclical. We'll hit months where, like, we'll have a really great week and then we'll have a really bad three weeks. And it kind of like shifts the way people start working and things like that. Right. So, like, this just happened recently where the month of May, you know, the first three weeks were okay. And then our last week right after Memorial Day, we had a record breaking week and my entire team, they just felt like they were like at capacity and they couldn't do the work. And now when I talk to them on Monday, it's going to be like, hey, I know it's been like, it felt like a squeeze, but let me just go through the numbers so we can talk about how May wasn't really as good as we're feeling right now.
- [17:37]
Tyson Mutrix
So. Okay. I, I am good with everything you've said up to this point. And I, I think that because we, I mean, we Talk about like, one of our quarterly rocks is based on the amount of fees we brought in, right. So I think things like that are really important. I will sometimes bring up like, costs and all. And our team is very good about, hey, we're spending too much money here. We're, we're using this software and we're not where we rarely use it though. We should get rid of it. So I think having that kind of culture where like almost like that startup culture, I think that that is really, really important that everyone is, is, is conscious of that. Here's where I'm wondering if you share this though. Does everyone know what everyone else is making?
- [18:12]
Ruma
No, they don't know that.
- [18:14]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, so there is a line.
- [18:16]
Ruma
There is a line. Well, I also hire people in different countries, right. So there's a stark difference in someone that's in New Jersey versus someone that's in like, you know, Lima, Peru.
- [18:27]
Tyson Mutrix
That, that's very true. There's also like, can become issues where if the person in Lima, Peru is making more than the person in the United States, you know, where. Because that, that could be. There are those situations where that, that could happen too, depending on the expertise of the person. So I always, like, I'm very curious about people that share salary information from employee to employee. And I, that is, I was really, really curious if you shared that. So I'm. You and I are on the same page, I think with, with most of it. Is there anything that you think that you share when it comes to numbers perspective that you think that maybe most, most firm owners would kind of cringe at that?
- [19:02]
Ruma
I share.
- [19:03]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. It's like, is there any other, like, like, so I don't, we don't like, it's like we, we share all of our, our financial documents with.
- [19:11]
Ruma
No, I don't like, pull up a pni, right. But like the numbers that I like on a weekly basis, I tell them what we've collected and then I let them know once I meet with our cfo, our fractional cfo, I'm like, hey, these are our numbers for last month. These are the amount of closings that we had. These are the amount of files that got canceled. These are the fees that we brought in and then these are the expenses that we had. So everyone knows what our break even point is. Because, you know, I'm like, we have a break even point. Anything above X amount means like, you know, I can bonus you guys. And so like, basically that's, you know, kind of how I share with them.
- [19:45]
Tyson Mutrix
I want to go Back to your mom for a second. Do you ever lean on her as kind of like a informal board of advisors where. Because she's. She's not done what you've done before when it comes to running a law firm, but she's, she's done her own thing when it comes to real estate. So do you ever kind of go back to her and like, hey, mom, like, can you give me some advice on this? Can you give me advice on that?
- [20:06]
Ruma
I don't.
- [20:07]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, why not?
- [20:09]
Ruma
So when I said in the beginning, like, you know, I watched them build this business for X amount of years, but it's. It's really a mom and pop shop. And I have a lot of respect for them because they put, like, me, my sister through college and we've never, like. I mean, there was times where, like, I didn't feel like I had everything I wanted, but for the most part, like, they've supported all of our goals and dreams. And if I ever need anything, I know I can be like, hey, mom, dad, I need help. Right? But I'm also the older one, so I would never do that. But a lot of watching them was what I didn't want to do in my own business. So I think the conversations we have now is interesting because my mom has started still been for the last year and a half, been like, when are you taking over my business? I've seen what you've done with your firm. I need you to come and do it to my business.
- [20:52]
Tyson Mutrix
Do you ever give her advice?
- [20:53]
Ruma
I've tried.
- [20:54]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, okay. Tell, tell, tell me, tell me about a time where you tried and she pushed back.
- [21:00]
Ruma
There was a time where I actually opened up. You know, I put space in my schedule to actually work in my mom's business, like every other week for about, like four hours on a certain day. So we would meet in person. And I, and I was just doing a lot of just like, fact finding. I was like, okay, who, who. How do you, how do your leads come in? What are your lead sources? Because really the only salesperson is my father, and my mom is all operations, so. And they don't track any of that stuff. Like, they weren't doing any tracking whatsoever, you know, So I was just like, kind of asking, like, where do you get your business? And it's all really referral now. But then she's just like, oh, I want to do marketing. And I'm like, what does that even mean? She's like, I need a social media person, like, and I need you to manage them. And I'm like, that's just, like, not how it works, Mom.
- [21:42]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, this sounds a lot like my conversations with my parents, because they. They run. My dad's a mechanic. He's. He's owned a garage for the last 20 years or so, and they. They run it together. And it's. It's the whole. It's a very mom and pop shop. And it's funny, the reason why I was asking about if you give your mom advice, because early on, I would give my dad advice, and he would, like, not listen to it. Like, he would just be like. But then he started to watch me build our firm, and. And then he's like, oh, okay, maybe he does know something. Because I think, because they're so used to being our parents, right, that they don't. I'm sure that they respect our opinions and everything else, but they. But they're still our parents, you know, and they. They're. They're the ones that are supposed to be educating us. And I. I think it's hard for them to kind of get over that sometimes.
- [22:26]
Ruma
Yeah, totally. I mean, I know I have the utmost respect of my mom because she literally wants to hand me her company, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm not ready for that. And I'd love to, like, do it together also, because she has so much industry knowledge and she's been an operator for, like, 25 years. Like, that's just natural knowledge that I can't. You know, I can't learn as quickly as she wants me to. But it's hard because I'll be like, we need to spend money here. And she's like, no, I want to do this all for free. And I was like, that's not how it works either.
- [22:52]
Tyson Mutrix
Nope. Do you think at some point you'll. You'll take over her company and not. Not. Not to say that you're going to close your law firm, but that. That you'll do both?
- [23:01]
Ruma
Yeah, definitely. That's. It's on my, like, vision for the next decade to definitely do that. Because they've worked so hard. The. The company has, like, a name in the community, and, you know, they've served so many clients. Like, I wouldn't want it to just. Just end because they wanted to retire.
- [23:17]
Tyson Mutrix
Is that part of the reason why you chose the niche that you chose?
- [23:20]
Ruma
I mean, it goes so hand in hand. It's like. It's so funny because my mom was like, this was always my vision that, like, our whole family is always working together. But, yeah, I mean, they were. They were the reason, like, they were the reason I had clients for the first three months. You know, every home buyer, every borrower they were working with. My dad was like, you have to work with my daughter. You can't choose any other attorney. That's it. And he had that sort of pull because everyone knows him in the community. Like, everyone knows my dad. So there was not even a question. They would, like, just blindly trust him and be like, okay, we'll work with your daughter. That's fine.
- [23:52]
Tyson Mutrix
You know, this is an interesting topic that I hadn't really thought about actually discussing with you, but there's a substantial drop off when it comes to a child taking over the family business. I don't know if you ever looked at these numbers, but there's like the failure rate, like, skyrockets. And then so from parent to child, it's a massive drop off. From parent to then grandchild, it's even. It's way worse. It's like, it's like drop by like 50% and then drop by like 80%. So it's like the failure rates, it's a massive failure failure rate. So with that in mind, you may or may not have known that about that, those numbers, but what do you think you need to do to start to prepare to make sure that that doesn't happen whenever you eventually do take over that business?
- [24:37]
Ruma
I'm big on education. Of course, as an attorney, that's like the biggest thing. I'd probably sit and study for the same licenses that my parents have just to make sure that I understand. And I did actually start studying for it during the pandemic. I just never took the exam. So, you know, like, that would be like my first step, because that's always my first step. I'm like, do I even like this area of. Of of work? You know, and then I think it's learning the sales process because that's really where they want me, you know, like, that's how they want me to help them grow. And I have to get into it at a point where my mom is still excited about the business, so we can work hand in hand. And I just need to, like, build up the patience to work for that, like, work through that. Because I think even last year when I was trying to do it, it was still too early in my own entrepreneurial and my journey as like, becoming a CEO and things like that too. There's like, such mindset shifts that go from being like a technician to really just a business owner and operator.
- [25:31]
Tyson Mutrix
All Right. So I want to ask you about that, too, because there's another post you had. It's. It's related to this, where I think this one was on Instagram. I. I used to think I had to be the smartest real estate lawyer in the room to stand out. Turns out I just had to be the most present. And this relates to also the. The ability to really communicate with your clients, really from anywhere. But. So talk to me about what. What you meant by that, like, because I. I agree with you. You really don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You really. It's really how you make the clients feel. But talk. So talk to me about. Talk to me about that.
- [26:03]
Ruma
Yeah. So my entire life, I was a horrendous multitasker. Like, everyone would be like. I mean, the thing is, like, I'd be on my phone, I'd be emailing, and someone would be talking at me, and I could. I could listen, comprehend everything they were saying. I just wouldn't respond when they stopped talking, and I would respond, like, five minutes later. And that's, like, so disrespectful, you know? Like, I was just like. That's just like, who I was for so long. But working with clients actually taught me, you know, just presence, just fully listening to them, and that's, like, half the battle, right? And even now, too, in this day and age, like, we're so connected to everything, like, oh, let me just send that text off. Hold on one minute. Let me just send that email off. And presence is just so important because, like, when you have someone's full attention, your phone is. Even when your phone's turned over, I think that's still bad. It's like, put the phone away so no one can even see it. And you just get, like, a different connection with that person when they know you're just like, all ears, 100%.
- [26:58]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. I. I can't remember where I saw this or I read this, but there was. I. I was. I started doing that recently myself. Where it was. It was funny, is. I don't even know why I picked up this habit. I remember my. I think it was my very first job interview in law school. And the attorney was he. When I met with him. And this was back, by the way. This was like, I. I graduated in 2010, so this is like in 0708, right. Right around that time frame where the first thing he did is he took his cell phone, he put it on the table, and I thought it was like, what a Rude thing to do, but it's a normal thing now. Right. And I. And I recently had read something or watched something about just the whole. The. Just by you putting that on the phone, that phone on the table, you've completely changed the dynamic of your conversation that you're having with the person. Because that, that thing there, right. It's like this, this distraction point in it by just. By just simply leaving it in your pocket, not. Or just leaving out in the car, something like that. You can. The connection you can build with that person is so much greater. So I. That's something I've been trying to do recently. It's hard to do. It's. It's. It's hard to do because you're so used to doing it. But have you found the same thing?
- [28:10]
Ruma
Yeah, definitely. It's so hard. And it's also something I'm recently working on. Just in general. My whole shift has been to presence. You know, a small example. Like, I was in Mexico for my birthday. I took the week off. I've recently hired an attorney to replace myself and buy back my time. And instead of just leaning into that, I was still glued to my phone and checking emails. And my partner looked over at me and he's like, we are on the nicest beach. The weather is perfect. The sun is shining. You've got a cocktail in your hand and you're looking down at your phone. And I was like, mortified, like, when he called me out and I was like, you're so right. Throw my phone in the ocean.
- [28:47]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, it's. It's one of those things where it's. It's this. The phone is such a blessing and a curse at the same time. And we do sometimes we miss out on most of the world by just looking down at our phones. There was. I've talked about this before, but we were. I was in Scottsdale with my wife and we were. We were. We like to go hiking when we go out there and on the way down the mountain, we were coming back.
- [29:09]
Ruma
You can't hike and look at your phone.
- [29:11]
Tyson Mutrix
No, no, not at all. And we weren't. But there was this guy that was coming down the. Or coming up. He was starting. We were just ending our hike. He was just starting his hike. And this has turned into like, such a joke between the two of my. My. Me and my wife. But she, he, he. Every single person went by. He's like, hey, it's good to see you. Good to see you. And when he said it to us, and we're like, do we know this guy? It was like he was. He said it to us. Like, he do us. He looked at us right in the eyes and he's like. It was like, oh, weird. Like, and we looked each other. Do you. Do you know who was that? We're like, I don't know. So we've what. We could have had this challenge. Every once in a while we were like, all right, no next person to say to the next person wins. Right? So what got me doing is, like, looking up and like the next week I was like, going to the grocery store and stuff or wherever I was going. And I was. And it was amazing by the number of people. When you're walking, are not looking at it, they're looking down at their phone, walking around like, dry. If you're driving around all you. You see people just looking at their phones. It is the wildest thing. And you've missed. You miss out on so much of the world when you do that.
- [30:16]
Ruma
It's so true.
- [30:17]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. So you've mentioned a couple times the, Your kind of the vision for the, the firm and, and also you're taking over your. Your mom's company. Is there anything else to it? I wonder if you have like, this big empire vision or, or really what is the vision that you have for what you're building?
- [30:37]
Ruma
You know, I like, in this, in this business coaching program that I'm in, one of the things we do upon joining is like, figuring out your 10x vision. And, you know, it was writing everything down and, and I was really excited about it, but then I went back and looked at it like six months later, like recently, and I was like, so much of this is like, so superficial. You know, it's like the houses and like the big business and like the seven, eight figures and all that. And, and I'm like, really trying to figure out what it is that I want my life to look like and come from a place of, like, purpose and impact. I. I see money as a tool. There's a lot of, like, money work that I've been doing too, to like, shift my mindset around that and using it to, you know, have the nice things that I want in life, but also making sure that I'm like, leaving an impact and creating like a generational path of just women in business, women in law, the remote work environment, like being able to work on your own terms and having the balance. I mean, you know, there's. You can't have it all. Of course there's a trade off when you focus on one for the other, but trying to get as close as possible to, like, what is authentic to you. And building my business has been such a journey in that. Because a lot of it I've built from, like, how does this make me feel? And I've never had the opportunity to do that in my life because it's like, you've just follow the path that has come before you and what everyone else is doing.
- [32:03]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. I wonder, do you think that by focusing on, like, the, you know, how does it make me feel that that has sometimes gotten you into a little bit of a trouble or has caused problems for you, or do you think that that's worked pretty well for you?
- [32:15]
Ruma
I think the biggest problem, it's. It's caused problems just for my own self. I think it's just that I have to become comfortable with being misunderstood and getting pushback or people telling me, like, I can't do it this way. You shouldn't do it this way. So I think that's. I think that's the. Been the biggest thing. I think when you're true to yourself and you're making decisions from, like, a good place with good intentions, it can't be wrong, you know?
- [32:39]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. What was the. What was the exercise you're supposed to do? Is it like, what's your 10x vision? Have you ever thought, like, dreams so.
- [32:47]
Ruma
Big that it's like, unbelievable, you know?
- [32:49]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. Have you, have you ever tried to dissect, like, like, actually sit and think about, like, what you wanted your life to look like in, like, 30 years? Like, like what, like, what's. Like, what do you eat for breakfast? What do you do when you get up? Have you, have you. Have you gone through that at all?
- [33:04]
Ruma
I feel like not like 30 years from now. It's like the 10x made me think about, like, the next decade.
- [33:09]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [33:10]
Ruma
But, you know. Yeah. Like, I do try to write out scenes of, like, how will I feel when I wake up? You know, what is, like, the first thing that I'll reach for, to just really try to, like, be in that energy and like, visualize it?
- [33:22]
Tyson Mutrix
That's. That's kind of what I like to do. I like to. I really like to go, like 30 years out and thinking, like, okay, like, like what. What's my relationship like with my kids, with my wife? All that kind of stuff. And then that way you can kind of re. You can reverse engineer it and, okay, what are the milestones I need to hit for that? And then what does the next decade. Decade look like? What are the next five years, three years, one year and all that. So I, I, I think, I think it's kind of a fun exercise. I don't know about you, but I, I, I like, I like going through that and thinking about it. And then you can track your progress too.
- [33:49]
Ruma
Yeah. And it gives you something to work, work towards at least. Right. Because I feel like a lot of this is like you have to know your why, otherwise you're just going to want to burn it all down. Because I feel like that a lot of days, you know.
- [34:02]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that's, that's for sure. That's for sure. We only have a few minutes left, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna end with this question we talked about. You're going to be speaking at Max Lock on. What would you say is one key principle? Without giving away everything from, from that presentation, what do you think is one key principle behind success? Successfully scaling a remote firm that most lawyers miss.
- [34:25]
Ruma
Oh. What is the key? Okay, I think you have to be really clear about who you are.
- [34:31]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, tell me more about that. What do you mean?
- [34:33]
Ruma
When I, like when I started my pr, like who I was when I started my practice, to like who I am now is a completely different room. And it's been a journey. And I think that, you know, part of the scaling is, is embracing the journey because it's going to be hard. You're going to make the wrong decisions. Like you're going to fail, just fail fast and keep going, you know. But you also need to know like, like who are, who are you? What makes you tick? Like, why are you doing this?
- [35:01]
Tyson Mutrix
It's a great message. I love it. It's a great way to end it. Thank you so much for your time, Ruma. Really appreciate it.
- [35:05]
Ruma
Of course. Thanks for having me.
- [35:20]
Tyson Mutrix
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- [35:56]
Ruma
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