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- [00:01]
Host/Advertiser
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- [01:20]
Noel Bagwell
This is Maximum Lawyer with your host Tyson Mutrix.
- [01:30]
Interviewer/Max Law
So Noel, I've got a doozy of a first question for you. So how do your personal beliefs, worldview and or faith inform your approach to law, ethics and risk and do those ever conflict with business pressures?
- [01:48]
Noel Bagwell
I. I wouldn't say they conflict for me. I'm very clear with my clients about my limits and the boundaries that I have, morally, ethically and so on. And I'm pretty clear on the front end, I think also about my faith. I'm a Catholic convert, actually went to seminary. Before law school I went to a Baptist seminary. I was raised Baptist and left after a year. Didn't finish my M. Div. And worked in luxury property management a couple of years and then went to law school. That journey is one I'm pretty open about and I tell people on the front end kind of what to expect. I think it's important to set expectations and set boundaries. So no, I don't really run into a lot of conflict. I do have clients from time to time that, that want things that are off limits and I just tell them if you want that, you're going to need to find a different lawyer because I'm going to do what I'm going to do. I'm going to do the right thing every time Always inflexibly. And you can be on board with that or you can find someone else to help you. But I think most people respect that. I don't think it's not usually a problem. How does it really inform my practice? I guess I answer to a higher authority. Apologies to Hebrew National Hot Dogs. Right. I love their commercials, you know, because I feel the same way. Like the ethics rules to me are important, but they're not the be all, end all of like what I can do and what I can't do. Because I do answer to a higher authority. I have to do what's right. Even if the ethics rules would give me shades of gray within which to operate. And also they don't really keep up, do they? Like, like we're in this AI world now and that's one of the big problems with having a rigid set of rules instead of guiding principles. If you have guiding principles, you can do the right thing even in a dynamic, rapidly changing world. And so I think all the things that you mentioned give me those principles to hew to, even if the rules can't quite keep up with how fast things are progressing.
- [03:38]
Interviewer/Max Law
Yeah, with that is the. With AI you mentioned that things are progressing very, very quickly. When it comes to your personal beliefs and faith, has there been any point where you have any conflict between that and what's going on with AI?
- [03:53]
Noel Bagwell
No, not conflict. I thought about why, like there's a lot of simulation theory talk, you know, people, ever since the Matrix. I remember in college we'd be talking about like, cause I majored in philosophy. We'd be talking about the old brain in a jar, brain in a vat problem. And that's not really all that different from the Matrix or whatever. How do you know that you're living in reality and you're not living in a simulation, and so on and so forth. And Elon Musk stirred the pot a bit while back, saying that he thought the chances that we're living in base reality are like one in trillions or something like that. One in billions, I don't know. It doesn't matter. And so I started thinking about AI and simulation theory and my faith. And so I took a couple of weeks and wrote a book just quickly called God in the Machine. I published it last year, just an ebook. I didn't do like the full thing and self published, you know, so not a big deal. But it just sort of works through the idea, you know, if we're living in a simulation, does Christianity even make sense anymore? Does my faith make sense if we're living in a simulation and is there a good reason to keep it? Ultimately, I concluded, spoiler alert, that, yeah, there's still good reasons to keep your faith. So I think doing the work and thinking through those problems kind of helped me navigate the ethics of living in an AI world. Like, I really sat down and gave it some thought. If we have to coexist with AI, if eventually it eclipses us, we go past artificial general intelligence to artificial super intelligence. Now we're dealing with something that looks at us the way we look at ants in terms of intelligence, and we have to live in that world. Does faith even make sense? Does it have a place? And what do we do with all of that? And how do we live our lives? Just generally, how do you live your life is kind of a deceptively simple question, because the answer is not easy. You know, it's not an easy answer. To live a good life, you need more than just, you know, food and shelter and clothing, right? You need purpose. And that. That. That can be elusive when it seems like everything is shifting all the time.
- [06:04]
Interviewer/Max Law
So the reason why I. I've kind of started where I did. And for. For people listening, they're going to be like, what are you. Why are you all talking about faith and religion and all that? And when it comes to business philosophy, it's right. And it's. And that's why I was really, really interested about this conversation with you, because in 2023, you had actually consolidated. And make sure I've got the timeline right. You consolidated your legal practice and then your leadership consultancy, and you put them all under one brand, and you've got counseling, clarity. And so I thought it was interesting, and I wanted to know why you found it was important to consolidate those disciplines. And does that have anything to do with your faith? And so I want to know more about the why part of that, because I think that they are intertwined. And that's why I brought up what I did at the start. I want to know, you know, why combine them under one roof?
- [06:56]
Noel Bagwell
Well, it was practical. So I think you should make. Just like business is kind of like architecture in a lot of ways. In a previous life, I might have turned out an architect instead of a lawyer. And I really loved Frank Lloyd Wright and his mentor, the guy he started doing architecture with, originally said, form follows function. And I think that's true just as a principle that form, good form, should follow function. The form of my law practice follows the function of what I do for my clients. And I was finding over the years of practice being kind of a different lawyer. I do preventive law for growth stage companies and smaller businesses as well, startups, even pre revenue. And I help prevent their legal risks from becoming legal problems. I help improve efficiency, improve their profitability, improve their growth rates, all those things. And I found in doing that work that a lot of the problems that they encountered didn't start as legal problems, they started as leadership failures. So, you know, failure to be self led, self directed, you know, failures to lead virtuously, various other types of leadership failures would ultimately result in legal problems. So, you know, if you're trying to solve a problem, getting at the root of it, not just addressing symptoms, but really like curing the underlying cause of the problem, I think is the most effective and ultimately most cost effective thing to do. So I got into resilient leadership coaching. The catalyst for that was me having to reboot my life. I went through a big relationship change in 2021, and that was very difficult for me. Kind of burned me down to the basement level of my life and I had to rebuild completely from that. And that took a lot of personal growth and a lot of work. Thankfully, I had a lot of, lot of support people around me that just, I feel like God brought into my life at exactly the right time. And so in doing all of that work and growing and learning and evolving, I took all the lessons in that period of my life and distilled them down to my book Lead Again, A Modern Guide to Resilience. And that now forms the cornerstone thought leadership of the leadership consulting that I do for individuals and teams. But even before I had gone through all of that, I had been sort of, I don't want to say like coaching or doing counseling or anything like that, but I'd been having conversations at least as a trusted advisor with executives and business leaders and speaking to them about the challenges that they were facing. You know, like the law is a relationship, business, right. It's all about how you structure your relationship to other people, how you navigate conflict and all of that stuff. You can address that either through the legal court, like through the courts and contracts and stuff like that, or you can address it more informally. If you can do it well informally, you need less of the formality, not no formality. You still need to properly structure your relationships, you know, define them and use good, well written contracts no matter what. But the more trust you have, the less onerous all of that has to be to balance. And so I would have those conversations with executives and Business leaders, my clients, you know, know the C suite. And. Yeah, so I was already kind of doing a bit of that. But then after I went through all that stuff that I went through and rebuilt myself after that, I thought, okay, let's. Let's formalize this. Let's make this a proper service that I can offer. Because now then at that point, I felt a little more established, like I had a little more, I don't know, credibility after having gone. Gone through everything and being like, wow, okay, if I can come back from this, I can guide people or accompany people along the same journey as they do, the same as they come back from the worst that life has to offer them.
- [10:43]
Interviewer/Max Law
So, yeah, you mentioned a few times you used the word rebuild. And so you had to start rebuilding yourself in 2021. I wonder, because you do preventive law. And I wonder how have you rebuilt the current knoll in a way that helps you be more preventive compared to. How was the previous Noel pre 21? 2021 Noel. How was he compared to how you are now?
- [11:08]
Noel Bagwell
Yikes. Pre2021 Noel. I think at that point I had some misconceptions about what it means to be strong. That's a complex issue for any man to have to tackle, and especially men, I think. I mean, it's important for women to be strong too, in their way. But men have to navigate a lot of new challenges these days. Being strong appropriately is one of them. Avoiding what some people might call toxic masculinity. The kind of, I don't know, like Andrew Tate brand. Not. Not there's anything wrong with that. I mean, he has his place, I guess, but I have no beef with him. But that's not for me. You know, there's that kind of strength, but it's not my brand. My approach to strength after 2021 is more. It doesn't matter how many times you get beat down, right? It's. It's. Can you grow back from it? It's like Wolverine style resilience, right? Mutant healing factor. I'm a huge nerd and I don't care. So I like the idea of being able to just basically come back from anything. And so that's the kind of resilience that I've built. I might get beat down a hundred times, but I'll never stop getting up. My son and I like to watch the Super Mario Brothers movie. We watched it again the other day, and there's a scene where he's fighting Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong is just tearing him up. Just Beats him down a million times. It doesn't matter, because he just doesn't know when to quit, and he just gets back up every time. That's the kind of resilience that I. That I have now. Before, it was a kind of strength that tried to be above the fray or not take the hits. You know, just avoid or power through, just sheer force of will, just plow through. And there are problems with all of those approaches. You know, you can't be above everything because you have to have some level of attachment for anything to matter. You can't just plow through because the world's a lot bigger than you, and that's arrogant. And can't avoid everything because that's cowardice. Right? So all of those approaches, tried in various ways at various times in my life, failed me. And I think the only thing that a man really can do at the end of the day is take the hits and then get up.
- [13:13]
Interviewer/Max Law
You know, Chris Williamson just interviewed Matthew McConaughey, and Matthew McConaughey had a really interesting line. He was talking about how a good man doesn't mean a nice man.
- [13:23]
Noel Bagwell
That's right.
- [13:23]
Interviewer/Max Law
And so a nice man can be a bad man. And, and I. I thought it was a really interesting perspective that many times people think, oh, I'm nice, so I must be good. And I want to get your thoughts on that.
- [13:38]
Noel Bagwell
I think Jordan Peterson has the ultimate take on this. He says that a man should be dangerous. I was like, okay, tell me more. Right?
- [13:45]
Interviewer/Max Law
Explain that. I know what you're talking about, because.
- [13:47]
Host/Advertiser
Some people might perceive that incorrectly.
- [13:49]
Interviewer/Max Law
So. So you explain that. I know what you're talking about.
- [13:51]
Noel Bagwell
I think he said it for shock value a little bit. But I think he's also right that a man should be dangerous. It's not in taking a man's power to be dangerous away that makes him good. Because then it's not a choice being good to be good. You have to choose it. You have to choose goodness, you have to choose virtue. It's not something that can ever be automatic. It has to be a function of will. And if the man has capacity for violence, if he could do good or evil, if he could do really good things or really harm someone, he has the capacity for both, right? Then it's a meaningful choice. When he chooses restraint, when he restrains himself, he imposes self discipline, he imposes a prudent path on himself. Then the choice to not hurt other people comes from, like, virtue within himself. You know, fortitude, prudence, and so on. And I Think if you don't have the capacity for violence, if you. If you can't be dangerous, it's not even a meaningful choice that you. That you don't hurt people. It's just. You're just weak at that point. It's just weakness. Right. Weakness isn't a virtue. In fact, it's not something that we even respect. So I think having the capacity to be dangerous, but choosing not to be a danger to other people is a virtuous thing. And I think that's where it is. I mean, Peterson's take on that, it is shocking on its face at first, but that's what grabs your attention. The follow through is where the real meat is.
- [15:28]
Interviewer/Max Law
Yeah. And the small part that you left out, you definitely covered the vast majority of it, the most important part of it. But the other part of it is because you have the capacity to be dangerous, you also have the capacity to defend the people that you love and fight for the people that you love. And I think that part's really, really important because I think some people might take. Just because of who he. They might take a little clip and say, oh, I'm not gonna listen to anything. I think his lesson in that is the message is really, really important.
- [15:55]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah, I know. I agree with that. You're right. I did leave that bit out. Yeah. Just. But, yeah, you certainly need to be able to defend what's important to you. I think that's also something that we respect and that people are looking for out of a good man is will you stand up and fight when it matters? I saw a post on social media and it was about, like, what's your controversial parenting take? You know, like, what's the thing that's gonna get everybody in your life, like, roused up against you? And the parent said, I told my kid that every time they stand up to a bully, I'll take them out to ice cream. Like, if you punch a bully in the nose, you get ice cream as a reward. And I thought, that's a controversial parenting take. But I like it. Yeah. You know, like, I take my son. He's been in karate since he was about three years old. He went through this phase where he was kicking, you know, just kicking me, everything, just kicking. And I was like, okay, you're a young man, right? You have this energy. I'm not going to take that away from you, but I am going to give you a healthy outlet for all the kicking. Because kicking me in the throat is probably not the thing to do. You know, when I'm trying to get you down for a nap. So we started doing karate. And his sensei says, you know, I don't train bullies and teaches them the appropriate use of, of, you know, technique for self defense. And I think that's absolutely crucial. You need, you're going to have this energy, right, to fight flight, freeze, you know, whatever. You've got that part of your brain. And when those urges to fight come up, you need to be able to channel it in a healthy direction. Whether you're a kid who's now almost seven or an adult, it doesn't really matter. We all have that.
- [17:32]
Interviewer/Max Law
You know what's interesting? We're gonna, I'm gonna use this as segue into something else. But the, when you were talking about that, it made me think of whenever I was coaching our kids in soccer. I never played soccer growing up. Didn't know much about it, but I did notice a common trend that the bad teams versus the good teams. The good coaches would tell the players what they should be doing and the bad coaches would tell them not to do things. They would say, stop doing that, don't do that. And so my whole philosophy was to show them, okay, do this. I can't say never. There were times where I would slip up and I would say, well, you shouldn't do that. I would always try to focus on, do this. Here's what you should be doing so that they knew what to do. Because whenever you tell them what not to do, they focus on what not to do as opposed to what they should be doing. I thought, that's kind of interesting perspective. So the segue into that, though is what lessons have you learned over the last four years that you've taken into your practice when it comes to guiding clients on preventative measures or on the leadership side of things? Whenever you're. You're talking to people about leadership, what are some things that you've taken that you've learned that people should focus on?
- [18:40]
Noel Bagwell
Well, before I answer your question, I think you're right. The subconscious mind doesn't really have a filter for the negative positive. It chooses what you're focused on and it responds to what you're focused on. Chooses is really the wrong word, right? Like it answers back where your focus is. You don't really like if you're consciously thinking about don't do this or do this. It's the this that gets all your focus. And so it's not really effective to tell people you shouldn't, don't, blah, blah, blah. You know, all of that they don't want to hear that, and they don't really hear it at an. At a deep, fundamental level. They just respond to whatever the focus is on. So if you put the focus on something positive and you go that way, I think your subconscious mind follows the rest of you at all. You know, action follows focus really is what I'm trying to say, inelegantly and inarticulately in this moment. But to go back to your question and answer your question, what lessons from leadership have I brought into my law practice? Is the gist of it, right? I think leading with virtue is a big part of it. Good communication. The big themes of my book, the Lead Again book, I've written four, but that one is competence. Rebuilding competence, confidence and trust. So those are the things that I try to focus on. Whether we're dealing with the fundamentals of building out a nascent legal department. You know, like, how do we improve our core competencies, KPIs, meet the key, performance indicators, all that jazz, boring corporate jargon. But, you know, it's essential. You gotta deal with it, you gotta do it. And those things really do matter, you know, in terms of the bottom line. So I shouldn't gloss over them. But then from the leadership into the law, I think the more interesting work, or at least existentially fulfilling work is, is addressing areas of confidence and trust. Competence gets you in the door. Confidence can be inspiring. And trust is the currency that fuels, like, everything. I mean, trust is the fuel that allows everything to happen. I tell clients sometimes, for example, if we're talking about a contract and they push back. They say, why does it need to be so long? Why does it need to have all the boilerplate and all this detail? And I asked them, well, how much do you trust the person? Oh, I trust him forever. He's my brother. Blah. It's ridiculous. I'm like, oh, good, you trust them completely.
- [21:06]
Interviewer/Max Law
Just shake their hand and move on your way then. Yeah.
- [21:08]
Noel Bagwell
And I say, well, you don't even need a contract then. And they're like, oh, I think I do. Why do you need a contract? Well, because something could happen. That's right. You need a contract because something unexpected could happen. You could get an unpleasant surprise. Trust could break down at some point. Maybe you're wrong about their character. There are lots of reasons that you need a contract, but you need it in the event that there's a dispute. Now, that means you need to assume that there is going to be a dispute. In Contract world, we assume that there's going to be a dispute. If there's never going to be a dispute and you have maximum trust, you don't need a contract. In fact, you don't even need money to change hands in a lot of cases. Because at the end of the day, money isn't necessarily what you really want. Sometimes it is, you know, but a lot of the time it's, you know, I need this for that. I did a recent transaction where a guy was partnering a business and he wanted some collateral out of the business. No money even changed hands for his half of the business. It was just this for that, quid pro quo. And those guys had been in business for, I don't know, more than 20, 25 years, something like that. They'd been in business a long time. There was a lot of trust. And yet they were both very good about getting the contract well negotiated, well drafted, using a lawyer, doing it right. And I thought, okay, this is probably why they've been successful in business for all this time, you know, and there was a lot of goodwill at the end. There was no bad blood. It was just. It was kind of one of the easiest transitions like that, where one guy was taking over the business, the other guy was retiring. It's one of the easiest ones I've ever done because there was trust. But they were also committed to getting everything done the right way, using a qualified professional to do it. It was just seamless. I love gigs like that. I love clients like that. And actually I was at the zoo with my son and just this weekend and I get a call. And so this is a little more about, like, how my practice operates, right? I get a call, I see that it's that client that I just mentioned. And I answered. I was like, hey, how's it going? He had my cell phone. There's no gatekeepers. There's no, you know, well, you have to make an appointment with the receptionist and then call the secretary and the paralegal and the associate attorney. And you're just. You never get to actually talk to your lawyer. It's infuriating and frustrating. I've had to hire a lawyer before, and it's the most difficult thing is to not be able to communicate the way you need to. So I don't do that. No gatekeepers. You have my mobile number, you call me and I'm. The buck stops with me. And we have one on one conversations as needed. Sometimes I can't answer and I'll text back, be like, hey, I'll call you when I can. But almost Always direct line. So I pick up. I'm like, hey, what's going on? I said, I know you're calling me on a Sunday afternoon, so I assume this is urgent and you have an imminent need right now, or you wouldn't be calling me on a Sunday afternoon. So what do you got for me that's the most positive and kind way that you can have that, you know, this better be important kind of call? And he goes, oh, I'm so sorry. My granddaughter got a hold of the phone and called you. He was like, I don't need anything. I was like, cool, you have a great day. I said, remember, if you ever need anything, give me a call. He said, I will. He was like, everything was wonderful and just gave me some really nice feedback. We hung up and went off to the zoo. You know, I don't really believe in work life balance. I think that's an illusion. I think one of the things that I try to teach my clients, whether it's on the leadership side or the legal side, is work life fusion. You know, be a whole person. There's going to be so much tension in your life as a leader if you try to have, like, work you and regular you, because then they're always adversarial, they're always in competition with each other. How much energy are you putting into this and how much energy you're putting in that? And you never really feel great about either one. The reality is you're a whole person and your work is part of that. And you need to make some peace with that. You need to make peace with that part of yourself. And you need to find a way that feels authentic to you and healthy to do what you do and not make it who you are. Like me being a leadership coach or a lawyer. That's not who I am. It's what I do. It's what allows me to keep the lights on and, you know, do the right thing for my family. So it's part of me, but it's not me. And I don't hang my identity on that.
- [25:32]
Interviewer/Max Law
How do you prevent overwhelm then? If you do have that philosophy that it's definitely an interesting perspective. You're not the first person I've heard to say that you don't believe in the work life balance. But you're the first that I've heard to say that. To kind of meld those two together. That's kind of like just one thing. That's who you are. So how do you prevent one from creeping too much into the other.
- [25:55]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah, setting expectations is a big deal. If I'm with my son, I'll tell him, hey, I know you're out of school today, but it's a work day for dad, so you will have my focus and attention because I love you and you're my first priority. I tell him that, and I do. I make sure that, you know, I take breaks, I check in with him, I make his lunch. You know, we take a break and go swim at the Y or something like that. We do a fun activity, and he's usually, you know, watching a show or playing with Legos or playing on his iPad or playing with the cat or whatever. You know, just doing his thing. And I'm there doing my thing, practicing law, you know, taking client calls or meetings or whatever, drafting contracts or setting up a business or setting up compliance policies or whatever it is that I'm doing that day. And so I work alongside him. I'm in the same space as him, and it works because I set the expectation with him. You're my priority, and I love you, and I'm here with you, but I have to work. And I tell my clients, they'll call and I'll say, hey, I've got 15 minutes for this call right now. My son is with me. So, you know, watch your language, basically. But also just know that this is what's going on in my life. I think a lot of people feel, I don't know, embarrassed, ashamed, awkward about having a personal life. I don't know. I don't really get it, if I'm honest. I really don't get it. We all know, like, you go into someone's office, you see the pictures of their wife, their kids, whatever, on the desk or on the console. You know, they have a life, and, you know, that's probably why they're showing up for the paycheck every day. So, like, why is it embarrassing to talk about that? Or, you know, why is it a weakness to say, hey, I only have so much time for you because I have this other competing concern. Just saying that alone shows that you're keeping those things in balance, that you have the strength to do. So why is it weird? Why do we make it weird? I don't get that.
- [27:52]
Interviewer/Max Law
Well, on that, you're kind of practicing what you preach. You brought him along with you today, and I think it's kind of fun. He's been over here kind of chatting and stuff, and I think that that's. That's kind of fun. I want to make sure maybe give him something to REM and that'd be kind of fun.
- [28:03]
Noel Bagwell
No, he's my best buddy and just my number one little guy, my best coworker. And I've. He has his own little desk and I put it in my office. Sometimes he'll color do whatever, schoolwork or whatever while I'm working. And yeah, we just. We make it work. You know, I don't think there's any real need to separate all that out too much. Now. There are some things that are, you know, in my practice that are more like adult things that are just either gonna go over his head or not be appropriate to talk about. So you do have to compartmentalize some of that and make space for that. But, you know, he goes to school and I'll work, and then I go pick him up from school in the afternoon on school days or whatever. Summers can be a challenge, but, you know, you find a way to make it work and there's an ebb and a flow. The business model that I use is actually one that a lot of other lawyers will ask me. They ask me that same question. How do you keep from getting overwhelmed? Because I hate the billable hour. In 2015, I wrote a blog article for my firm, which at the time was called Executive Legal Professionals. And on the blog for the firm, I wrote an article called we hate the Billable Hour and you'd should too. And it was kind of a Jerry Maguire style piece, more mission statement than anything. And I was just explaining all of the perverse incentives that are baked into the cake with the billable hour. And I had decided at that time and was actively pursuing, I decided to use a different business model, one that was subscription driven. This is before, like, everything was a subscription. And I thought, okay, I want to give my clients exactly the legal support that they need and have them pay a flat monthly fee. And everything's unlimited. There's no limits on time.
- [29:46]
Interviewer/Max Law
That's crazy. That's a first.
- [29:48]
Noel Bagwell
So that's what everybody has told me.
- [29:50]
Interviewer/Max Law
Yeah.
- [29:51]
Noel Bagwell
My dad, who was the president of the Tennessee Trial Lawyers association for a couple of years and was a like a successful trial attorney for 19 years, said, well, that'll never work. And I was like, we'll see. Maybe you're right. You know, and then a few years later, he goes, I've never been so happy to be wrong.
- [30:09]
Interviewer/Max Law
That's awesome.
- [30:10]
Noel Bagwell
That was very validating. He. He was so kind. You know, he. He's really proud of me. I know he and I have a good relationship now, and I love Him a lot. He's, he's been a big supporter of mine and encourager, but he, he didn't believe that it would work. And lots of attorneys and don't because it absolutely throws conventional wisdom completely right out the window that you need billable hours and that, you know, time is money, a lawyer's time is a stock in trade, blah, blah, blah. I've heard all of that and I reject it.
- [30:39]
Interviewer/Max Law
You know, you had mentioned the part about people being afraid to bring up certain parts of their lives and hiding their sort of their personal lives. Something else that people have seen are afraid to talk about is religion, their faith. And it's interesting how you, instead of hiding that, you leaned into it. And I wonder how you came to that decision. And if you've ultimately, from a business standpoint, I'm talking strictly numbers, revenue, profit, right. Has that been a hindrance or has that been a benefit?
- [31:10]
Noel Bagwell
I don't know because I'd have to ab test that, you know, like I'd have to do it the other way and then look at would that be more successful? I don't know. That's a very unsatisfying answer to your question is I simply don't know.
- [31:21]
Interviewer/Max Law
But sometimes I don't know is the best answer.
- [31:23]
Noel Bagwell
I guess it's on brand because it's authentic. Right? Like for me that's kind of everything. So I think to hide away those parts of yourself is less authentic. I don't think you need to wear everything on your sleeve. But I err on the side of disclosure. I err on the side of telling people, here's who I am, this is what I'm dealing with. If that's not a good fit for you, cool. There's like a million other lawyers out there. I mean, we're just lousy with lawyers. They're everywhere, right? So if you need a different one, there's Google. Enjoy. But if you want someone like me, someone who's a little different or a lot different, I'm here for it, you know, And I get good results. It's hard to argue with results. So I get good results for my clients. And the thing that I think other lawyers, what I'd like for them to understand about the model that I have is even though I don't time gate my services, even though I offer all of my services on an unlimited basis for a flat regular fee, that subscription model, the Pareto principle, protects me. The 8020 rule, 20% of my clients use 80% of my time and 80% of my clients use 20% of my time. In fact, one of the biggest challenges that I have is getting clients to proactively reach out to me. And it's not that they don't want to talk to me. It's that they feel bad. And I'm like, don't feel bad. That's what you're paying for, right? And they're like, oh, well, you know, I know your time is valuable and I don't want to use any of your time. And I think maybe they're just being nice too. The simple fact is they have a business to run. Legal is part of it, but it's not the whole thing. And so they allocate to legal development as much time as they think they need. And I regularly check in with them and remind them, hey, thank you for paying your bill this month. Don't forget to book some time with me. Here's a link that you can use to self schedule into my. I just drop a calendly link or whatever and they can book time with me if they want to, but I check in every month with them at a minimum. And then sometimes, you know, you get like an intuitive hit. It's like, I wonder how so and so is doing. And turns out most of the time that hit. That's. There's something to that. I'll reach out and I'll say, hey, I haven't heard from you in a couple of weeks. Just thought that maybe I should reach out. Is everything okay? And a lot of the time they'll say, well, actually I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you called, or I'm glad that you sent an email. Here's what's going on. And you know, I think just kind of keeping people in mind and reaching out to them, touching that relationship. It's great. You show up with value, you have opportunities to proactively help them grow their business, and that's the way it tends to work. I don't find myself overwhelmed. I do have some matters that are hourly, I should say, in the interest of full disclosure. Like, to be honest, I still have to bill some matters hourly. Usually those are litigation matters. But I usually give the client an option like, here's, here's a flat fee. This is what I think it would cost to handle this on a flat fee basis. Or here's an hourly option. Which would you prefer?
- [34:18]
Interviewer/Max Law
What do people normally pick?
- [34:19]
Noel Bagwell
What do people normally pay?
- [34:21]
Interviewer/Max Law
No, no, what do they normally pick? Oh, pick hourly or flat rate. I'm very curious.
- [34:25]
Noel Bagwell
For litigation. Yeah, Shockingly. They pick hourly.
- [34:29]
Interviewer/Max Law
Yeah.
- [34:29]
Noel Bagwell
Maybe because it's less upfront. Maybe. I don't know.
- [34:33]
Interviewer/Max Law
Well, the whole thought process and probably part of it behind your writing of that blog article, people talk about, people want to know what they're going to pay overall. And so that's easier for them to sort of understand as opposed to feeling like they're being bled over a series of months or years. And to me, I would think it is easier for someone to pay hourly because they don't have that, especially on a litigation matter. Can be tens of thousands of dollars depending on the case. So to me it's easier for them to digest an hourly rate than they are a flat rate. But I could be completely wrong about that because I don't, I don't, I don't bill and I don't charge by a flat rate. I do contingency. So it's completely different. So, so would you say. So the majority of the time people are picking billable, you think?
- [35:17]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah, for litigation matters in circuit court or chancery. So if it's small claims, if it's a general sessions court in Tennessee, it's. I only charge a flat fee.
- [35:27]
Interviewer/Max Law
Yeah.
- [35:28]
Noel Bagwell
I mean it's just not, not worth it. Who's going to bill our like. Yeah, who's gonna bill hourly for small claims court work? I'll even, I hate to even say this, but I'll even do trades sometimes with people.
- [35:39]
Interviewer/Max Law
Oh, interesting.
- [35:40]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah, well, a buddy of mine, Josh Andrews out of Birmingham, Alabama, he was a few years, he went to the same law school, but he was a few years ahead of me. And when I started doing what I do the way I do it, someone said, you should reach out to Josh. He's trying to do a subscription based kind of thing too. And I was like, okay. So I remember calling him years ago and having a chat with him. I think I was actually driving up to Nashville from Birmingh at the time and we were talking in the car and I was telling him what I envisioned and everything. Trying to get advice from someone a few years ahead of me in practice. And he said, well, if you're ever going to do a trade, make sure you write a check to them and they write a check to you. So you've paid each other for your whatever it is. Right. And just deposit the checks at the same time and they'll cancel each other out. And I was like, wow, that's interesting. That's also going to create a taxable event. But I guess that's honest too, you know. So he Was like, at least you're paying each other for your work. And then of course, if one of you doesn't deliver, that makes the dispute, sussing out the dispute a lot easier too. And so that was some interesting advice that I got. So there are ways that you can do trades where you're actually still technically paying each other for your work or whatever it is you're trading for. So sometimes I'll do that. Sometimes I'll just be like, hey, I'll do this for you if you, if you do something for me. And so that's fine, you know, but I prefer only for like, really small, small claims and stuff. Not really huge, huge things. Like if it was, I don't know, like $50,000 or something, something really big, you know, on the bigger end of legal fees, I. I probably wouldn't consider a trade. I think that's. I don't know. At that point, just, just do the money thing.
- [37:17]
Interviewer/Max Law
That's a little sticky. That's for. That's for sure.
- [37:20]
Noel Bagwell
Eh, it can be a bit much. But if it's like, I don't know, under 30, under 25. $30,000. Because our small claims court limit in Tennessee is 25,000.
- [37:29]
Interviewer/Max Law
Your small claims is 25. Missouri's five.
- [37:32]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah. Tennessee has the highest limit on small claims court in the United States. It's anything under 25. So 24,999.99, which you can. Anything up to that limit. You can. And attorneys fees don't count towards the limit, and punitive damages don't count towards the limit.
- [37:48]
Interviewer/Max Law
Interesting.
- [37:49]
Noel Bagwell
So if you're entitled to attorney's fees, it's only the actual damages that count towards that. Cab. I actually don't know whether or not this is true, but if you don't mind a little aside, I'll tell you a funny story.
- [38:00]
Interviewer/Max Law
Yeah, let's hear it.
- [38:01]
Noel Bagwell
The part that I don't know is true is whether or not, in fact, I may hold the record for the highest small claims court damages ever in a case. I could, theoretically. But I won't say which county this was in or what company it was. I'm going to keep this completely, you know, anonymized or whatever, but I had a dispute in which the majority owner of a limited liability company was basically stonewalling the other seven members or so, seven or eight members of the llc, not allowing anything to really happen in the business for a couple of years. And so the other members got together and they hired me. They wanted to get this guy out because he had Gone to the patent attorney that had filed the patent for their ip, their big ip. And he'd had that person not only put the IP in his name personally instead of in the name of the company, but he also had them draft the operating agreement. And it said there's this custom provision in the operating agreement that said if the company doesn't hit these revenue targets, then all the IP in the company goes to him.
- [39:04]
Interviewer/Max Law
Oh, wow.
- [39:05]
Noel Bagwell
So he was just, at that point, just gonna wait him out. He was just gonna stonewall, not let anything happen. And after a couple of years, he would end up owning all the ip, and then I guess he was gonna do whatever he imagined he was gonna do with it. And they were not having it, of course. And so they hired me. And so we filed a case in. In general Sessions Court. Because I explained to them, I was like, hey, you know, probably going to end up getting appealed, you know, because you can just automatically appeal from sessions to circuit anyway just because you don't like the result, basically. But they were like, well, let's try to do it on the cheap. I was like, okay, so we take this case and we file it in. In Sessions Court. And we're claiming, like, I was like, a little under $13,000 in cash, the IP, and we're asking for judicial expulsion of this member from an llc.
- [39:48]
Interviewer/Max Law
Oh, wow.
- [39:49]
Noel Bagwell
Just, like, claiming that he violated the Tennessee Revised Limited Liability Company act and all these other things that we. So that's a lot for small claims court, right?
- [39:57]
Interviewer/Max Law
Absolutely.
- [39:58]
Noel Bagwell
Like, kind of crazy to be bringing that lawsuit there. But it's not against the rules. We didn't actually state the value of the equity in the company or the ip. It's not like we had a valuation, you know, and at the end of the day, everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. So we bring this case. The guy doesn't show up, so we move for default. Judgment granted. I'm out in the hallway with my clients. They're all kind of, like, around me, explaining next steps and what to do. And this guy comes up and he goes. He's asking, where's the courtroom? And I was over there, like, can't you see I'm talking to my clients? Like, give us some privacy, Police. It's over there. Go over there. One of my clients goes, that was the guy. I was like, that was the guy. He's like, yeah, that was the guy. I was like, what?
- [40:38]
Interviewer/Max Law
You're late, buddy.
- [40:39]
Noel Bagwell
I was like, let's get out of here. You know, before. Before the Bailiff comes out and calls us back in. I was like, is there a coffee shop or something? It was a county far away. And I was like, let's go. And we reconvened at a coffee shop. Well, sure enough, like, at the 11th hour, he filed an appeal to the circuit court. So I'm back down there again, right? And we're in the circuit court. It's like two cases on the docket. Iris was second. And the judge shows up, and he was like, so, anybody here for such and such company? I was like, yeah, me. Anybody here? The other guy? And we're all looking around like, no.
- [41:10]
Interviewer/Max Law
Didn'T show up again.
- [41:11]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah, he didn't show up again. The judge is like, okay, well, he sends the bailiff out to call for the guy out in the hallway. And the bailiff comes back and he's like, nah, nobody. He was like, okay, well, default again, I guess, you know, here you go. So we win twice on the same thing. The guy is expelled from the company. The judge orders that all his membership interest be transferred back to the company per se, that the intellectual property be reassigned back to the company, and that he pays a little under $13,000 in cash plus 10% pre and post judgment interest. Great result for the client. I mean, but it's a layup because the guy didn't even show up. I almost felt bad about winning because it's like, I was all ready to make these.
- [41:48]
Interviewer/Max Law
Hey, man, you take your wins. You take.
- [41:50]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah, you take them where you can get them. But I was ready to go and argue, you know, but it kind of took the wind out of my sails a little bit. Well, the judge leaves the bench and in walks the guy again.
- [41:59]
Interviewer/Max Law
Jesus.
- [42:00]
Noel Bagwell
Again. He's late again. He was like, well, are we. I'm here for court. I was like, yeah, not really. It's over. And you lost again, so, you know, good luck with that. And he's like, well, I'm gonna.
- [42:12]
Interviewer/Max Law
I'm gonna appeal all the way to the U.S. supreme Court, I guess.
- [42:16]
Noel Bagwell
I don't know, but I just kind of rolled my eyes and I half expected sometime in the next year or two for there to be a Rule 59, Rule 60 motion, you know, try to set aside the judgment and do all the things. It never happened, you know, I think he just wasn't a serious person. But then after it all, after the dust settled, you know, I'm thinking we didn't really declare any value on this equity or on the ip, right? I don't know. I actually didn't at the time, know what those were even worth? It just. It didn't really come up. They were more focused on the money that they wanted to get back and just getting control of the company so they could. So they could operate it and do what they needed to do. Well, they hired me as outside general counsel following that, and because of the negotiations I helped him with, we attracted some new investment. The investors said that me being part of the leadership team was the only reason they were willing to make the investment in the company. Because, you know, it was a big turnaround really. And we got to talking. I was like, well, what do you think the IP's worth? And they said, about a third of a million dollars at that time. And I was like, really? I was like, that would have been something that we probably should have told the, you know, told the court. I was like, well, based on the investment that just got made, that the company's maybe worth a million, maybe million plus, you know, so the value of the guy's equity was like the other 2/3. So I'm over here doing the math, like, okay. Based on the value of the equity and the value of the ip, are you telling me that I got you over a million dollar result in small claims court?
- [43:49]
Interviewer/Max Law
That's incredible.
- [43:50]
Noel Bagwell
Nice. Just because we didn't, you know, we never really, like put a dollar figure on it and presented it to the court. It was just. And again, everything's worth what its purchaser will pay for it. Would anybody actually give them a million dollars for their equity or for the ip? I don't know. Who knows?
- [44:02]
Interviewer/Max Law
Maybe you don't know.
- [44:03]
Noel Bagwell
I don't know. But it was kind of cool that on paper it looked, from a certain point of view, Obi Wan Kenobi style, right? From a certain point of view, maybe I got him over a million dollar result in small claims court. That's why I said, I don't really know. I can't. There's, you know, but if so, and there's a legitimate reason to believe so, I might actually have the record for biggest, biggest win in small claims court in Tennessee history. I don't know. It just depends on your point of view, I guess.
- [44:27]
Interviewer/Max Law
That's awesome. I like it. Listen, I'll count it. It's official. Maxwell approved.
- [44:31]
Noel Bagwell
You'll count it? Maximum approved.
- [44:35]
Interviewer/Max Law
So let me end on this question because I want to ask you about. You'd mentioned competency, you'd mentioned confidence, you mentioned trust, and I. One thing we haven't talked about yet is building the confidence. So what do you do to build confidence? I'd say, both in yourself and in the people that you work with.
- [44:53]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah. I will say that. That case before I answer your question. Last little tie, a little bow on that. I liked that case because it highlighted kind of the natural progression of the way clients and I work together. They will bring me a dispute, I'll solve it. Some creative, out of the box thinking. Do, you know, be willing to navigate that in a way that some attorneys may or may not. They. You know, most. Most people are kind of formulaic, and they may not engage with it enough to do all of that, but they might, you know, and it. And I just charged them a flat fee, and it was very. For the small claims court stuff, it was nominal. But then I. I said to them, I was like, hey, you're trying to run this company, right? And clearly, it's been a ma. It's been a disaster piece. Not a masterpiece up to this point. That's a Liamism.
- [45:36]
Interviewer/Max Law
I like it.
- [45:36]
Noel Bagwell
Yeah. He's also. This isn't a masterpiece. This is a disaster piece sometimes, but it was a disaster piece. Right. And we successfully negotiated, me being outside general counsel, to fix all those structural things. So then they hired me on a subscription basis, paid me a flat monthly fee to do that work, and they were. They were better off when I. When we parted ways. So a lot of times there is this urgent hair on fire need, and then you put out that fire, and then you go to the structural preventive law after that to prevent that sort of thing from happening again, to answer your question. And that's kind of a good segue into, you've got to fix the competency stuff. Like, you don't have any. If you're confident without being competent, that's just arrogance. That's just hubris. Right. Really, it's unjustified confidence because you're not competent. So I think the first step into building or rebuilding confidence is to be reasonably assured of your own competence. You got to take a real close look, like, am I just cocky, or do I have a real good reason to believe that I'm great at what I do? Or I'm great in this arena. I have the skills, you know, kind of the same thing that coaches that deal with imposter syndrome help people push past? So lots of people have imposter syndrome. Lots of people think even though they're very competent, they think I'm not really that great. So I think it's about retraining, mindset, but also really taking a good Personal inventory. A good evaluation of what are my skills, what are my skills and abilities. I will take a little deeper approach with the coaching clients. Confidence in leadership from a legal perspective is just like, well, do you have the authority? You know, that's just like, let's look at your operating agreement. Let's look at your contracts. You can be confident because right here it says in black and white, you have the authority to do this. So just don't make excuses. Go do it. It's that. It's that simple. That's nice and that's easy for a lawyer to say, but then when you're dealing with people at a more human level and they're like, well, yeah, okay, I get that I have the authority, but I don't really feel it. And people are going to question and they're going to push back and there's a million excuses not to, like, show up with that energy, right? How do you get that? How do you get that energy? That's a more interesting and complex issue. So from the leadership coaching side of that, I'll come in and I'll say, look, who are you? That's an alarming question for a lot of people because they don't really know. Apart from your beliefs and values, who are you? Apart from your skills and abilities, who are you? Apart from your habits, your behaviors, who are you? Apart from the results that you get and the environment you're in, who are you? When you strip all of that away from a person and ask them who they are, it's uncomfortable.
- [48:24]
Interviewer/Max Law
I'm going to bite. No, who are you?
- [48:27]
Noel Bagwell
I'm the one that carries all of that. I'm the one who sees. I'm the one who notices. I'm the awareness. I'm the thing that never changes. And I'm made in the image of God. And that's where my worth and my dignity come from. All of that comes from being loved by him. That's why I show up with all of that. That's why I lead with it on the front end, because it's the core of authenticity. It's the core of being a real living human. And I don't need any of the rest of that stuff really now. They all add things. They all add depth and complexity and flavor, like different dimension to the experience of me, but they are not me. You take all of that away and I'm still me. So that's hard for people to really get their head around because you spend some. And you know what's wild? It's like Layers, right? The core of you, that identity, that being the one who notices, the one who watches, the one who carries, right? Being the ineffable essence at the core of all of that, that's made in the image of God. That is like when you focus in on that, which you almost have to do in just like a meditative way, right? It's not so much trying to see it as just resting with the feeling of it, right? When you're there, you're about as far away from results and environment as you can be from that identity place. Outside of that, there are all your beliefs and values. So like the core of a planet, right? That hot molten core, that's your identity. Then there's a layer of beliefs and values and then your skills and abilities on top of that, then your habits and behaviors. And then finally the results and environment would be like the oceans and the forests, the crust, the outer part of the planet, right? It's about as far from who you are as possible. But that's where Most people live. 99.9% of people live in their results and environment. And when that gets dysregulated, it rocks them down to their core. Ask them to change a core belief. Ask them to change a belief or a value. It's wild. Most people adopt a set of beliefs and values at a very early age and then never question it, really. Never seriously question it. As a Catholic convert, like, for me, everything was on the table. I was sort of abstractly attached to the idea of the truth. I remember going through the Rite of Christian Initiation for adults, you know, rcia, the process for joining the Catholic Church. And they asked me, like, why are you here? And I said, I'm in search of the truth. You know, wherever that search leads me. I love Jesus and I'm trying to find a reason to stay attached to Christianity. But Protestantism had long ago lost any luster for me. Any attractiveness, coherence even. I just couldn't believe in that set of beliefs and ideas anymore. But I still love Jesus. And so, you know, looking at the Catholic Church was really just like a last ditch effort to save my faith. Where else am I going to go to find the fullness of truth? And so I told them, I said, I'm here in search of the truth and if I ever find anything that's not true, I'll leave. And they're like, that's fair. You know, I didn't just convert. I went on to become a certified catechist. Like, I went deep. I took the Classes at Aquinas College, from the Dominican nuns to like, I was like, it wasn't enough, you know, I just wanted to go as deep as I could almost in an effort to like try to find something that wasn't true. But I never did. But most people don't encounter their beliefs and values that way. They don't face them and they certainly don't question them. Because the idea like if, if something just in your results and environment will, will rock you. Like trying to change a habit can feel like life changing, life altering. Now you're only two layers deep, right? Trying to build new skills. You know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Trying to build new skills is like in your midlife, super hard learn, try to learn a new language. How many days on Duolingo can you hang? Right? It's tough. I have a friend who's got like a thousand day streak on Duolingo. I'm like, good for you. Going deeper than that. Trying to change beliefs and values. It almost never happens for people really. I think the confidence comes. If you want to really inspire a leader to have deep, deep confidence to show up, you do the best you can. And sometimes it's not really, you know, sometimes people just aren't ready to do it, but you do the best you can to get them as close to that core identity as you can. And you say, without all these other layers, who are you? And if they have the courage to stare into the face of that, then they will find some confidence. And usually along the way you're like, hey, you've gotten good results for people, right? Yeah. Right? You've got some habits that are healthy habits, right? Yeah. Lean into those. You've got some skills and abilities. Let's recognize that. Right? And at your core, you've got beliefs that bolster you and some really strong values, right? You take them on that journey inward. If you can get them to look at the identity piece, great. That can be life altering. But at least at a minimum along the way in, you give them enough that they can reflect on and see that, okay, I can beat this imposter syndrome. I can have the confidence. Yeah, People should listen to me. People should. You know, I do know where we're going as a, you know, as a company, I do have a vision for the way things ought to be and good reasons for, for suggesting this course of action. And you can build confidence on that journey. Once people start to trust themselves, it's easier for them to inspire trust in others. But once they see that other people trust them. That also feeds the confidence. So you can't progressively build competence and then confidence and then trust. Like you're sort of juggling all three of those balls at the same time. And it's not easy work. And there's no right, tricky, easy formula. You know, it's not like. It's not like a buzzfeed article where it's like, do these three. Three easy tricks and blah, blah, blah. It's not going to work out that way. Like, you have to really get your hands dirty. That's why I don't take on, like, I don't do, like, group coaching. I don't take on like 50 clients at a time or whatever. My practice philosophy is built around kind of 10 clients at any given time. That's where I try to plateau. I don't try to juggle more than that. Like, having a dozen clients would be stressful, maybe. Depends on the dozen clients, of course. But it's quality over quantity. And, you know, I. I'm not the cheapest lawyer out there. I don't even try to compete on price at all. I get good results for my clients. I take an unorthodox approach that's built on authenticity, like being real, listening to them, meeting them exactly where they are and taking them exactly where they want to go. And it's never boring.
- [55:09]
Interviewer/Max Law
Never boring. Noel Bagwell, thank you very much for doing this. Appreciate it.
- [55:13]
Noel Bagwell
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.