Maximum Lawyer Podcast: Stop Selling Hours, Start Selling Outcomes

Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Noel Bagwell
Release Date: November 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a transformative approach to legal practice: moving from the traditional billable hour model to selling outcomes and providing holistic, preventive legal and leadership support. Tyson Mutrux interviews Noel Bagwell, a preventive law attorney and leadership consultant, who shares insights into his integrated practice model, his philosophy on strength, faith, authenticity, work-life fusion, and building meaningful, trusting attorney-client relationships.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Integrating Faith, Ethics, and Law ([01:29]–[06:55])

• Personal Values in Legal Practice:
  Noel describes his clear boundaries rooted in his Catholic faith and ethics, emphasizing up-front communication with clients about what he will and won’t do.

  "I'm going to do the right thing every time. Always inflexibly. And you can be on board with that, or you can find someone else." — Noel Bagwell [02:28]

• Guiding Principles vs. Rules:
  He highlights that steadfast principles, not just rigid ethics rules, are necessary to navigate a rapidly changing legal environment, such as with the advance of AI.

  "If you have guiding principles, you can do the right thing even in a dynamic, rapidly changing world." — Noel Bagwell [03:22]

• Faith & AI:
  Noel discusses his book "God in the Machine," exploring simulation theory and whether faith withstands in an AI-dominated world. He concludes that purpose, derived from faith, remains vital.

  "To live a good life, you need more than just food and shelter and clothing, right? You need purpose." — Noel Bagwell [05:43]

2. The Power of Practice Consolidation ([06:55]–[10:43])

• Law and Leadership Consulting Under One Roof:
  Noel explains the practicality and necessity of combining legal and leadership services as many legal client issues stem from leadership failures.

  "A lot of the problems they encountered didn't start as legal problems, they started as leadership failures." — Noel Bagwell [07:54]

• Resilience as a Cornerstone:
  His personal journey through adversity shaped his philosophy, later distilled into his book "Lead Again: A Modern Guide to Resilience," serving as the foundation for his consulting.

  "I thought, okay, let's. Let's formalize this. Let's make this a proper service that I can offer." — Noel Bagwell [10:13]

3. Rebuilding & Redefining Strength ([10:43]–[15:28])

• Resilience and Masculinity:
  Post-2021, Noel embraced a model of resilience focused on endurance and adaptability rather than avoidance or forcefulness.

  "It's like Wolverine style resilience, right? Mutant healing factor... I might get beat down a hundred times, but I'll never stop getting up." — Noel Bagwell [11:38]

• Being "Dangerous" & Virtuous:
  Drawing on Jordan Peterson’s philosophy, Noel stresses that virtue comes from choosing restraint when one has power, not from powerlessness.

  "A man should be dangerous... It's not in taking a man's power... away that makes him good... To be good, you have to choose it." — Noel Bagwell [13:51]

• Defending Others with Strength:
  Host and guest affirm that true strength includes the ability to defend loved ones and fight for what matters.

4. Leadership Lessons & Coaching Approach ([17:31]–[25:31])

• Focusing on Positive Actions:
  Drawing an analogy with coaching youth soccer, the focus is on instructing people what to do (positive direction) rather than what to avoid (negative).

• Key Principles - Competence, Confidence, Trust:
  Noel’s leadership and legal practice emphasize these pillars, with trust being foundational:

  "Competence gets you in the door. Confidence can be inspiring. And trust is the currency that fuels, like, everything." — Noel Bagwell [19:25]

• Contracts and Trust:
  Even with trust, contracts are necessary as risk mitigators for the unexpected, not as indicators of mistrust.

• Work-Life Fusion, Not Balance:
  Noel practices and teaches the concept of "work-life fusion," where personal and professional lives coexist authentically, rather than placing them in opposition.

  "You're a whole person and your work is part of that... It's part of me, but it's not me." — Noel Bagwell [23:44]

5. Eliminating Overwhelm & Structuring Client Relationships ([25:31]–[31:20])

• Setting Expectations at Home and Work:
  Noel manages his focus by communicating priorities to both his son and clients, integrating his personal life into his practice transparently.

• Subscription Model Law Practice:
  Foregoing the billable hour, Noel pioneered a subscription-based legal service, offering clients unlimited support for a flat fee—a model initially met with skepticism, even from his father.

  "I want to give my clients exactly the legal support that they need and have them pay a flat monthly fee. And everything's unlimited." — Noel Bagwell [28:20]

• Skepticism Turned Success:
  His father later acknowledged the success of the model, reversing his initial doubts:

  "I've never been so happy to be wrong." — Noel Bagwell, quoting his father [30:10]

6. Authenticity, Revenue, and Results ([30:38]–[34:17])

• Leaning Into Faith Publicly:
  Noel is open about his faith and who he is, seeking to attract clients comfortable with his authentic self.

  "I err on the side of telling people, here's who I am... If that's not a good fit for you, cool." — Noel Bagwell [31:23]

• Managing the Subscription Model:
  The Pareto Principle generally ensures the model’s viability; most clients require little time, offsetting those who need more.

• Proactive Client Communication:
  Noel checks in monthly or when intuition prompts, maintaining strong, proactive relationships.

7. Pricing, Trades, and Legal Practice Details ([34:17]–[44:27])

• Clients Prefer Hourly in Litigation:
  Most litigation clients still opt for hourly billing, possibly due to cash flow or familiarity.

• Barter Arrangements in Small Claims:
  Noel sometimes facilitates value-for-value trades in smaller legal matters, sharing practical advice for documenting such deals.

• Record-Breaking Small Claims Win Story ([38:00]–[44:27]):
  Noel recounts a unique case where, through strategic action, he achieved what might be a record-setting small claims court win, eventually restoring a company's control and valuable IP to his clients.

8. Building Confidence & Identity ([44:27]–[55:09])

• From Competence to Confidence:
  Real confidence begins with an honest reckoning of one's skills—confidence without competence is mere arrogance.

• Deep Coaching Approach:
  Noel guides clients on an inward journey, from examining beliefs, values, and habits to ultimately probing identity:

  "Who are you? Apart from your beliefs and values, who are you?... When you strip all of that away... it's uncomfortable." — Noel Bagwell [47:48]

• Personal Reflection – Who is Noel?:

  "I'm the one that carries all of that... I'm the awareness... I'm made in the image of God. And that's where my worth and my dignity come from." — Noel Bagwell [48:27]

• Practical Limitation & Focus on Authenticity:
  Noel intentionally limits his client roster to ensure depth and quality of service, prioritizing meaningful work and results.

  "Quality over quantity... I get good results for my clients. I take an unorthodox approach that's built on authenticity." — Noel Bagwell [54:30]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:29] Integrating faith and ethics in law
• [03:53] Considering AI and simulation theory through faith
• [06:55] Why consolidate legal and leadership consulting
• [10:43] Redefining strength and resilience post-adversity
• [13:38] The Peterson “a good man should be dangerous” debate
• [17:31] Lessons on positive leadership and prevention
• [19:25] The core values: competence, confidence, trust
• [23:44] Work-life fusion vs. balance
• [28:20] Origin of the subscription-based legal practice
• [31:23] Results of authenticity in business
• [38:00] The million-dollar small claims case
• [44:27] Building and coaching confidence from within

Notable Quotes

"I'm going to do the right thing every time. Always inflexibly."
— Noel Bagwell [02:28]

"If you have guiding principles, you can do the right thing even in a dynamic, rapidly changing world."
— Noel Bagwell [03:22]

"Competence gets you in the door. Confidence can be inspiring. And trust is the currency that fuels, like, everything."
— Noel Bagwell [19:25]

"You're a whole person and your work is part of that... It's part of me, but it's not me."
— Noel Bagwell [23:44]

"I want to give my clients exactly the legal support that they need and have them pay a flat monthly fee. And everything's unlimited."
— Noel Bagwell [28:20]

"I'm the one who sees. I'm the one who notices. I'm the awareness. I'm the thing that never changes. And I'm made in the image of God."
— Noel Bagwell [48:27]

Memorable Moments

• The story of achieving what might be a “million dollar” settlement in small claims court and the quirky way the outcome unfolded ([38:00]–[44:27]).
• Noel's son appearing as an occasional off-mic guest and “best coworker” ([28:03]).
• The candid discussion about the necessity and challenges of work-life fusion for modern professionals ([23:44]).

Episode Takeaways

1. Authenticity and transparency build trust and attract the right clients.
2. Moving beyond billable hours to value-oriented pricing can strengthen client relationships and practice sustainability.
3. Leadership failures underlie many legal problems; addressing root causes requires coaching and preventive counsel.
4. Personal resilience and self-awareness are foundational for both legal professionals and their clients.
5. Faith and purpose remain relevant, even as technology and business models evolve.

For law firm owners and attorneys tired of the treadmill, this episode offers not only a practical blueprint for innovation but a deeper reflection on what it means to serve, to lead—and to live—authentically.