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- [00:01]
Chelsea
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month.
- [00:57]
Tyson Mutrix
That's right.
- [00:58]
Chelsea
No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law.
- [01:20]
Tyson Mutrix
This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. So Chelsea, I want to start with your own personal story and specifically, have there been any pivotal moments in your own money story that changed how you approach finances and how you help others do the same?
- [01:48]
Chelsea
This question is always a fun one because typically when you work with somebody who's a master at something, they tell you this story of like a super all time low and struggle where they learned how to do the thing that they've mastered. But if I'm being honest, money was always something that made sense to me and that I could manage even when I was broke and a 20 year old single mom in college working two jobs. So that doesn't mean I always had a lot of it, but it's always worked out for me and I've been able to manage it wherever I'm at. And one of the things that contributed to that was my first money lesson, which I got from a city bus driver in high school.
- [02:32]
Tyson Mutrix
I didn't expect that. Okay.
- [02:35]
Chelsea
Me and my best friend were taking the city bus to the mall so we could go to Claire's and buy JNCO jeans that dates me and that's fine. But we were on the bus going back home and the bus driver was like, girls, take out a piece of paper and a pen. I Want to show you something. And he told us, this is what minimum wage is. This is what you're going to take home after taxes. This is what rent, utilities, groceries are looking right. Like, right now. He went through the whole rundown with us, and of course back then we were like, what is this guy doing? We don't care about this. We live at home. So it wasn't one of my stories that became relevant until I grew up and realized there's a problem if my money lesson came from a city bus driver. Schools aren't teaching it, colleges aren't teaching it. I have a finance degree and it didn't cover the topic well enough, so it became a really big story for me.
- [03:31]
Tyson Mutrix
That's interesting. How so? When we're talking about law firms or companies, how does the personal side typically affect the business side of things? Because in my mind, if the personal side's a wreck, then the business side's going to be a wreck. So can you talk about that a little bit?
- [03:53]
Chelsea
You're exactly right in every way. We have this idea when we're in business for ourselves that there is separation between church and state, but when it comes to your money, there is no separation. The way you manage your personal finance shows up in every area of how you manage your business finance. I like to think of money as a mirror when you really face your numbers, which a lot of people are terrified to do, by the way. There's a lot of avoidance around finance and getting a grip on numbers or working with people like me and having that level of vulnerability when you know you're not doing the best that you could be doing, but it is tied very much so to the person behind the numbers.
- [04:38]
Tyson Mutrix
How do you get past that with people that come to you and they've got that sense of shame because of how they've managed things over time. And how do you get, I guess, what is your message to them? To encourage them to reach out to someone like you, either you or someone like you, to kind of help get things in order.
- [04:58]
Chelsea
Well, first of all, know that you deserve grace for not knowing it's okay not to know how to manage your money. It's also okay that you're doing phenomenal things with your life and have great achievements over here, but you still haven't figured out how to work with money. Again, nobody taught you. Chances are nobody taught you, including your parents, because they probably weren't taught. So you can only work with what you know. And you are not alone. We see it all the time. And the thing I love about money, like my company has a framework. It's a framework for the technical management of money. And when you start with a framework, what that framework does is it gives your money boundaries to honor, and it also sets us up for the opportunity of. A lot of people push those boundaries with their spending. Right. So when I say boundaries, think of a budget. Budgets are there to protect profit and your future financial freedom. When you deviate from your budget, you now have the opportunity to ask yourself why everybody that comes to us is not ready to have these hard conversations and ready to face their money mirror. So we are patient, and a lot of people end up coming around, and that's part of being willing to work with somebody. You have to honor where they're at and let that journey unfold naturally. So with a framework, with a technical framework, whenever we deviate from the plan, that's where the conversation has potential to open eyes to. All right, well, maybe this is something that I need to address within myself and my habits because it's going to end up hurting my financial future.
- [06:40]
Tyson Mutrix
So is there anything. Because I imagine where you've got your budget in your firm, right. And I can only imagine that sometimes people, they don't have this budget at home. And so there's these massive inconsistencies where you're running the business a certain way, but you're not really running your personal life a certain way. Is there a certain way of aligning those two where it is more consistent? And hopefully that question makes sense. But just trying to figure out a way, is there a way of just aligning those so that they don't contradict each other in some way?
- [07:17]
Chelsea
What I've. What I have found since doing the work that I do is that when we help people learn how to get their business finance tuned up, they go and implement those same systems into their personal finance. For example, we love profit first. It works so well. I don't need to tell you that. And a lot of times people will ask me, can I do this in my personal finance? And I'm like, yes, yes. When I had discovered the book Profit first, it blew my mind because I was already using that system in my personal finance. And I'm like, great, this is validation. Like, this stuff works.
- [07:57]
Tyson Mutrix
Wait, wait, hold on a second. We gotta dive into that for a second. So you were already using the same kind of a system, but you didn't know there was a name for it, you just were using it?
- [08:07]
Chelsea
I had no idea. Like reading the book and looking at my personal bank Accounts. I was like, yes, yes, yes.
- [08:16]
Tyson Mutrix
Wow. So it's great for validation. But was part of you kicking yourself for not writing the book? Because that. That is. And did you have a name for what you were doing or you were just doing what you thought was the best?
- [08:29]
Chelsea
I was just doing what I thought was best. And, you know, it's even in Mike's book he talks about. I'm not reinventing any wheel here. This is a principle that's outlined in the Richest man of Babylon. And that book is how old. You know, and that's one of the things with finance. There are not any wheels to recreate in finance. It has worked the exact same pretty much since the beginning of time. It lives in the same cycles. It's very consistent.
- [08:58]
Tyson Mutrix
I think that's fantastic. It's a great story. What is interesting to me is that the people we talk to that are resistant to profit first. That. And I don't. I think it's. I think part of it is maybe just like, they don't like the. The idea it's too much work, maybe to them, they think. I think that maybe that that's what it is. But could you. Could you come up with a. An argument as to why someone shouldn't use profit first?
- [09:27]
Chelsea
Now, the number and the names of the bank accounts, depending on your industry, sure. But not using it at all, there is no argument. And that's to the point of. Sometimes we got to be patient with people because when we work with law firms, we find people are resistant, too. And it's like, okay. And I can't tell you how many people ended up switching. They're like, oh, wait, I get it now. I see the value. Or they'll start with just one or two bank accounts, and they'll be like, oh, wait, it does make sense to separate payroll and opex.
- [09:59]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, It's. To me, it's an easy solution to the idea that we're not using cash anymore. Right. Where everything is just automatically deathly deposited or withdrawn, and so we don't see it. So it's almost like it's not real. And. But if. If we were using. Like, was it. Susie Orman used to talk about the jars? Or maybe she still. I think it's Susie Orman talks about the jars and putting the money in the jars or whatever. It's very. It's. It's the same idea there, too, but you actually could see it where it's kind of a solution to not being able to see your money all the time. And. And I Wonder if you agree or disagree with that. Maybe disagree with it, but that's kind of the way I visualize it.
- [10:33]
Chelsea
No, I agree. And in the book, Mike does a phenomenal job of pointing out the psychology behind it and why it works so well. When everything is visually, physically separated, it works in alignment with how we operate from a human level.
- [10:54]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. How do you deal with the psychology money, when it comes to your clients? Because they come to you from all different backgrounds. Right. Where some are great with money, some are not. How do you. I guess, how do you deal with the psychology of that? Because that can be probably tough at times.
- [11:09]
Chelsea
It can. And, you know, we plant seeds early in the relationship, but that's another thing that you really have to work at the other person's pace. And everybody has a money story, and everybody's money story is unique. I was actually listening to Jayden Doyle's episode on your podcast this morning, and his story is so profound. And it's a perfect example of how you grew up and what you took from your childhood. When it comes to money is surely following you into your adulthood. And a lot of people haven't taken that pause to really think about, what are my beliefs around money and where did they come from? Because the first step is being aware that you have a limiting belief. Right. And so that's what we do is really try to figure out what is this person's money philosophy. Because everybody has their own money philosophy, and every philosophy has an origin story. That's your childhood. Right. Once you can start bringing it to that level of awareness, that leads to the opportunity to show them. You can change this. You can change a core belief. You can change how your brain neurons fire and create new neural pathways to believe something different that's going to get you to this place. Whereas if you never address your money ceilings in your mind, it's going to keep you stuck. And a lot of people wonder, why am I stuck? Why can't I make more? Why am I only making this? And it's truly all up here.
- [12:44]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. Do you have any money ceilings in your life? I wonder.
- [12:48]
Chelsea
I am super chill when it comes to money. I feel financially free now and I have my long term goals. But because I know what I know, money is a tool. We're not actually chasing money. We're chasing moments and time with our money. And so for me, I manage my money very intuitively. My business could make more money. No doubt, if that was my goal to make more money, we would be somewhere completely different right now. But part of understanding money and the role that it plays in your life is answering the question of how much is enough?
- [13:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. Well, do you have a number in mind for you? How much is enough?
- [13:32]
Chelsea
For me, how much is enough?
- [13:34]
Tyson Mutrix
I don't need to know the exact number. I just wonder if you do have a number in mind.
- [13:37]
Chelsea
I do, and it's constantly changing, and I think that's something people need to hear as well. When you're looking at retirement, I call it retirement, a lot of people don't like that word anymore. And for law firms specifically, like, your business is a vessel to get you to this place of financial freedom and you can exit profitably. And so the number that you're looking for is, what do you want to do once you don't have that. That responsibility anymore? And what people need to hear is that it's okay not to know. It's also okay to think, you know, and then it changes, but also recognize that that's a formula. So if what you want to do with your life and the people in it and for the people in your life changes, that number is going to change as well. So it's important to continually dial that in periodically.
- [14:26]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. The thing I've always loved about Max Law is that the. And we've always kind of talked about how you want to be able to live your life. Right. That's a big part of it. And the big part of the reason why we have these firms is so we can actually, you know, run our lives and spend time with our family and everything. And so I always like the feel of, like, Max Law. Like, Max Law Con. Like, it's. People come out there, and yes, we talk about making money, all kinds of stuff, but it's just. It's really about getting to. Getting to talk to it. It's really just coming out and hanging out with each other. I know you are a sponsor of Max lawcon, which I think is awesome, so thank you for doing that. But I've always, like, with Maximum Lawyer, but, like, Max Law Con people coming out, it's like. Like about hanging out and everything and just getting to know each other. And we see each other virtually all the time. I think that that, like, I'm glad you talked about kind of, like that part about, like, living your life. Like, that's why we do this. I think it's really, really important. But you had talked about, like, making money. Right? That part of it. And what is frustrating to me, and maybe you'll disagree with me about this, but is people's Focus so much on revenue, and they ignore the profit part of it. And I talk about ego numbers all the time where, like, revenue, a number of employees, those are ego numbers, right? It's. It's. To me, I don't care what your revenues are. They don't matter to me. It's really what your profits are. So can you talk about that part of it and how sometimes it doesn't. Well, maybe you disagree with this part, but sometimes it makes. Doesn't make sense to make more revenue because it may cost you profit and. And it may be maybe worse for you to scale to that point because you might just. You might. You might make less money. So can you talk about that part of it, that dynamic?
- [16:05]
Chelsea
I would love to talk about that. But first I want to tell you the. When I went into business for myself in 2017, Maximum Lawyer was the first group that I stumbled upon on Facebook. And immediately I was like, oh, my gosh, this group is so different. And I'm, I'm being serious here. And the difference was the entrepreneurial mindset, so to speak to, you know, the goal of this group is to, yes, run a profitable business, learn the lessons, practice law, these types of things, but the ultimate goal is to live life on your own terms. I saw that years back, and I send almost everybody I talk to. I'm like, have you heard of Maximum Lawyer? Because you should put this question in the group. You're going to get so such good feedback, and everybody in there has an open mind. So I genuinely appreciate your group and what it's done for the law firm owners that I've come into contact with. And I'm really excited about Max Lacon.
- [17:08]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, it's gonna be great. I mean, it's, it's. I can't wait. We. After being, you know, away from a couple years, it's. It's just great to. It's great to have it back on. And again, thank you for being a sponsor. It's awesome. But get to. I want to get. I want you to hear the rest of the qu. The answer, though, about revenue versus profit. I think that that is. So get. Give me your thoughts. I shouldn't have tainted your. Your thoughts with my thoughts, but go ahead and let me know. Let me know your thoughts on it.
- [17:35]
Chelsea
No, you're spot on. And I think a story that'll really drive this home. I spoke with a law firm owner who was grossing top line revenue, $7 million a year. And you'll hear that number and think, oh, my gosh, that, like, they're making really good money. Right. The reason they called us is because they had one bad month. The owner had to skip a paycheck and take out a loan to cover payroll. Your top line revenue is almost irrelevant. That particular person was making personally less than somebody who's bringing in 300,000 gross revenue a year and doing it in a way that protects profits in their pocket. So you're absolutely right. And I hear that all the time too. You know, we, we like to focus on the revenue number because that's like what sounds big to not only to us, but the people that we tell. Like, it feels good to be like, you tell people, I have a million dollar business, I have a multi million dollar business. But that's the thing about money. You can look at somebody and it looks like they're doing amazing and well, but what you don't see is the debt behind them that revenue won't cover anytime soon. And so I think the most important number that business owners should be looking at is profit at the bottom. And even profit is not cash in bank. There are things to consider after that. But draw your eyes to the bottom, not only the top.
- [19:06]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, so we had, so when, right around 20, 20, 2021, we really kind of ramped up the marketing because we saw some opportunity there. And one of the things that we were, I was very closely monitoring because I was actually very, I was, I was, I was afraid because with personal injury, you, you're, you lose money on a case. Like any given case, you're losing money for months or years. Like you're losing tens of thousands of dollars potentially. And we, we had an influx of cases and I was monitoring, we're like, okay, this is not going great because like expenses were going up, up rapidly because of the influx of cases. We had to hire more people. You had. That means you're spending more money on case expenses. And I was like, please let the revenue keep going because you, you are like, you're hit, you could hit this danger zone. And it is, it. I was watching, I was watching our charts and I'm thinking like, oh, this is, this could get close. We've gotten, luckily we got past that hump. But it's a, it's one of those things where you, you really have to monitor it. And luckily, like, with what we do, like, I can, I have a pretty good idea because I can look, okay, this is how long a case takes. This is how much we're gonna roughly get from each case. And I, but that's why I Could see that. But it is a, it's such a scary thing, especially when you're scaling. And I could, I could easily see how people where they have a rough month and it's. It, it shit will hit the fan like that. That, that stuff terrifies me.
- [20:36]
Chelsea
Yeah. And that's a game of preparation. Right? So, number one, this is why profit first works so well. And I'm glad you're talking about PI specifically in profit first because those are the practice areas where I get the most resistance. Like, my cash flow model is a unicorn. This isn't going to work for me. It works great for you. It works probably better for you than anyone else. But the second piece to that is, like you said, planning, having visibility, knowing your numbers. Every business, and I can say this, every business that I have ever worked with has some formula that can, with fair accuracy, give us a roadmap to scenarios. And if you can see that far ahead, you can plan that far ahead. And that's peace of mind. That's how you navigate decisions like taking on a ton of cases with upfront expenses and knowing, at what point should I be worried? At what point do I need this to come in? What, what's my plan then?
- [21:33]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, and what it really allowed us to do is just make hiring decisions and knowing, okay, we know, we know we need some more people. But there were certain times where we're just like, we need to hold out a little bit longer. Let's just hold off on hiring for these couple of positions. That way we can have that cash. Because what I didn't, I just, I don't like dipping into the line of credit. I wanted to just kind of keep that there if I needed it. And, you know, for no other reason than that. But I do wonder, I guess on that topic, do you have thoughts on lines of credit? Good, bad, indifferent.
- [22:09]
Chelsea
I love the idea of a safety net. And if you can be your own bank, great. But what you just said was that you tapped into your creativity and your other options before you immediately threw money at it as a solution. And so that's one of those things where you really have to know the person you're working with. Because some people, if they see it's there to take, they're more likely to take it when they don't necessarily have to. So it has to do with the person. And again, you gotta weigh your options and don't let throwing money at the problem stunt your creativity of other ways to manage it.
- [22:48]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I think that's, that's great advice. I want to ask you. I'm put you on the spot and ask you to tell a story about a really rough situation that was brought to you, some sort of financial situation of a law firm and sort of how you turned it around. If you've got something you can think of. I'm very curious to. I think the horror stories can. There's lots of lessons. I love watching plane crash stories. Not that I like the plane crashes. It's because I like to learn about, okay, these are the mistakes that the pilot may. And here's how you don't make those mistakes yourself. So I think the same thing when it comes to law firms. So are there any stories that come to mind where you can think of. Okay, they came to you in sort of a terrible state. You were able to fix a few things and how you fix them and kind of here's how they're doing now. Anything come to mind?
- [23:40]
Chelsea
Yeah. So when Covid hit, I was only two years into business, and I got this call at 7pm I don't answer the phone at 7pm anymore. We've grown out of that. But I got this call at 7pm from a law firm owner who was about to go under, and she had no idea how to look at numbers. She was terrified to reach out and put it off for a pretty long time before she finally did. And we opened up Excel and she told me where she was at then, and she told me what her vision was. And when I translated her story into a formula, when we looked it over, I was like, yes, this works. Like the math, maths. Here is your margins, here is your profit. You can do this and make the amount of money that you want to make. And it's almost as if the numbers gave her permission to build what she was wanting because she already had a firm, but she had something else she wanted to add onto it. And she already had a website and everything just in the cuff, just scared to launch it, scared to make the leap. And she ended up making the leap. And she grew 290% in revenue the first year and then over 100 the second year, while protecting profits. Back to our original conversation, her profits jumped almost as much year over year. And with the data reports that we were able to put in place, she could monitor the things like the team, productivity, marketing, investment, roi, all the numbers that help guide our decisions. And for me, I think that story speaks to. If you are ashamed or carry guilt around your current numbers or your current situation, you could be one phone call away from getting the Permission that you need and the systems that you need to drop it and to overcome it.
- [25:55]
Tyson Mutrix
I think that's. That's great. Good for her. I'm glad she did reach out to you because it was probably an easier fix. Not an easier fix. That sounds like it's undervaluing what you do. It was probably an easier fix than what was in her head, though, is probably what it was. And she just had to reach out to you to get it done. But sometimes we make these monsters in our brains about what's going on, and so we tell all these terrible stories. And my guess is that usually. And maybe just tell me, is it usually better than the person thought or is it usually worse? Because maybe it is worse. Usually whenever someone comes to you. I don't know.
- [26:33]
Chelsea
Better, definitely. I think again, that's another human nature thing. We think that everything is worse than it actually is. Almost always.
- [26:43]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that's one of those things that's tough. But I want to ask you about price. Not price controls, expense controls. So, you know, over time, like everything at this point is just on auto pay, basically. And you may recommend against that. I don't know. But like, everything's just getting paid, taken out of the account. And there's. We regularly. What we'll do is we'll like, let's go through, see where we need to cut. Where are things that we're no longer using. The team is actually pretty good about it too. They're like, hey, we don't use this anymore. We need to stop spending money on it. Which I think is fantastic. But are there other ways of kind of fixing into your process expense controls so that they don't get so high that they're getting unmanageable?
- [27:30]
Chelsea
Yeah. And I think what you just said is kind of a core value. Right. So just making sure that your team is aware that we want to run lean. So if you see opportunities for us to cut expenses, speak up, let us know. I am a big believer in autopay. I think systems in your money make it not only more efficient, but it keeps it out of your mind. If you are manually paying bills, you are going to think more about your bills and you get more of what you focus on. Let the bills roll on autopay, because that's what monthly financials are for. Monthly financials will give you the overview of everything and that's your chance to go back around and do house cleaning. Like we have an annual house cleaning checklist for finance of all the expenses that I recommend you negotiate every year. And that's another thing a lot of people forget about the art of negotiating your expenses with your vendors, which can save money, too. So, yes, definitely having the habit of going through your expenses. Look at them. And this is part of, like, our budgeting process. And people hate to do it because, yes, it's time consuming. And depending on how big you are, there'd be a long list of software platforms you're signed up for, Right?
- [28:44]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [28:45]
Chelsea
Seven out of ten times we go through that list, and it's like, oh, I don't even use that anymore. That was a whole annual renewal I didn't need. You know, so it absolutely makes a difference. And even if it's small, we have a motto internally with our team. Every 1% matters, whether it's money, whether it's processes and efficiencies, even 1% can compound.
- [29:07]
Tyson Mutrix
That checklist that you mentioned, is that something that you provide only to clients, or is that something you provide on your website?
- [29:14]
Chelsea
Yeah, that's on our website. We have a ton of free resources, and that's one of them that you can download.
- [29:19]
Tyson Mutrix
Will you tell people. And this was not a planned plug, I promise. But I am, because I think that that checklist would be really helpful for people. Give people your website, and if you actually have a specific link to it, mention that too.
- [29:33]
Chelsea
Yeah, yourcoresolution.com and just look under resources and free tools.
- [29:38]
Tyson Mutrix
Got it. Very good. Thank you. Because I think that that's something that would be super helpful. When you said housekeeping, I was thinking at first, when you first said, I was like, oh, something I've always wanted is like this checklist for my house. For like, okay, do this every so often, like, change. This is when the. The filter, the air filters go out. And we. We actually started one. I never. I've not finished it. I actually have it, but it's like, it's one of the things I've never finished, but I need one of those too, so handy. Really, really good. All right, let's. Let's shift gears a little bit. And what are some things. What are some common mistakes that attorneys. You see attorneys making when it comes to money that they may not realize that they're making because sometimes we'll make a mistake. A lot of times we make mistakes. We know we made the mistake. But are there mistakes that you see attorneys making that they just don't realize is a mistake?
- [30:33]
Chelsea
I have to say that the biggest mistake I see is people not looking, to be honest, not looking at your numbers, not reviewing and making it A point to understand your monthly financials. Your financials tell a story. And once you can get over the fear of facing them and into a place of curiosity to understand them, that is really powerful. The second thing. And look, I'm guilty of this too, because a lot of us are really good people, but the second thing is in their team, what they're spending on their team. And not even because it's always and never about the money. Right. A lot of us are building businesses and we're finding people and we're molding seats and positions around the person instead of first establishing the seat and finding the right person to occupy that seat. And that costs a lot of money. Or another common thing is thinking that you need for an example, an attorney to do sales calls and you need these high salary positions to doing these things and not recognizing that, especially after Covid shattered gas glass ceilings in the legal space.
- [31:52]
Tyson Mutrix
Completely. Yes, absolutely.
- [31:54]
Chelsea
And I love it.
- [31:55]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [31:56]
Chelsea
But recognizing that you have a lot of cost efficient options when it comes to your team members.
- [32:03]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, staying on this topic for a second, that when it comes to team members, I hear this question all the time or the state, it's either I don't have enough money to hire an employee or how do I know I have enough money to hire an employee? Is there an easy way of answering that question?
- [32:23]
Chelsea
No.
- [32:25]
Tyson Mutrix
How do you answer? How do you figure that out? What's the way of determining whether or not you have enough money to hire someone?
- [32:35]
Chelsea
The biggest thing to consider in that question is how quickly can you get them billable without lowering training standards? Our team will only do as good as we give them the tools to do. If we do not properly train and give our new hires space, space and grace to learn their craft, they're not going to flourish. And we have to own that as business owners. But if you properly onboard train a new team member, how quickly can you get them profitable? So essentially, where is the ROI going to be seen? And not all new hires are billable. Right. Sometimes it's like get a VA that can manage your calendar and your inbox so that your time and attention can be turned to creating an roi. And maybe that's not even on billable work. Maybe that's. Now we turn to marketing and we look at how to create a vending machine of new clients. So it also depends on where you're at. But inevitably you have to figure out how to make this new hire a stepping stone. And timing is key. Especially say you're a solo and you have no more Capacity to take. You're saying no to billable work. It's not a matter of can you afford to hire? It's a matter of you can't afford not to if you want to get to that next level. So your next challenge is how are you going to balance your time and firm money to find someone, properly train them, get them billable, and then focus your attention on increasing that top line, that revenue, to cover that?
- [34:14]
Tyson Mutrix
I like that. I like that way of looking at it. Do you. Do you have any thoughts on numbers like revenue per employee or profit per employee? Because that's something that I did an episode on recently, so I've had some interesting conversations with people about that over the last few months. Do you have any thoughts on revenue per employee or profit per employee?
- [34:34]
Chelsea
I do, and my thoughts are similar to the last question. Don't make the mistake of thinking there's a cookie cutter answer for your situation. I have heard industry standards that would say you should have four to five times ROI on your billable staff. And I see that happen. But I also see more and I also see less. And in my opinion, for good reason. So it boils back down to, what are your goals as a business owner? Is it your goal to delegate as fast as possible and get the work off your plate versus is it your goal to maximize your billable time before you hire? And with billable people, a lot of it. The difference that I see between 3 times ROI and 5 times ROI is how the firm owner values quality of life for their team. Right. And also recognizing that efficiencies open up profit margins. So before you're even looking at workload, you could be looking at technological efficiencies to increase the profitability.
- [35:40]
Tyson Mutrix
Tell me more about what you mean by the how the law firm owner values the quality of life part of it. I want to hear more about that.
- [35:47]
Chelsea
Yeah. So, you know, I have law firm owners who don't expect that much of an ROI from their team because one of their core, one of their top core values and culture values is quality of life for their billable staff. So they lower that standard and they've created a financial model that makes it sustainable.
- [36:12]
Tyson Mutrix
Got it. Okay. That's fair. When it comes to starting a law firm with no money, it's possible to do. I do know that, but I just wonder what your thoughts are on it in general, because, you know, you see it quite a bit with lawyers where they'll graduate and then they'll just, they'll hang out a shingle right out of law school or maybe they worked for someone and then they started a firm without money. I just wonder what your thoughts are on if you were going to start a company without any money. I guess how would you. What's the right way of doing it? Because if there is a right way, so what are your thoughts on it and then is there a right way of doing it and what is it? That's a tough one. I understand, but I'm just. I'm curious. Curious about your thoughts on it.
- [37:02]
Chelsea
I believe that you have to have money to make money is a myth. I think that is another thing that stunts our creativity. And starting my own business with. No, I didn't have to invest anything to get my business started. The art in starting a business without money is the front of the funnel, the marketing and the sales. It's like people who pre sell their books before they write it or pre sell a course and create the course as they go. There are absolutely ways to start a business with $0.
- [37:44]
Tyson Mutrix
That is not where I expected what I expected you to say not at all. I did not. That is really interesting. I think it's brilliant. I think it's great. You've been very success, successful with your company and I guess where does that come from? Where did you learn these things? Is it something that you learned over time? But like how did you learn to run your company? Because you've done a really good job of it.
- [38:06]
Chelsea
A lot of it is my upbringing. I'm no different than the conversation we had earlier. My dad was an over the road truck driver and he. I was raised and I saw him not be scared to work really long and really hard hours for what he wanted. My mom was in sales and no matter what company she was in, she always made the top 10 list. And we would go on these vacations to the Bahamas and Hawaii all on her company. So I had really, really good examples of what it looks like growing up. And my dad always had a side hustle too. Like he had a landscaping business, a handyman business. So from a very young age, I always knew that I wanted to be a business owner, an entrepreneur. And then I learned my own lessons because we have to change and evolve and the core values and beliefs that were given to us may not be the ones that we want to carry into our adulthood. Right.
- [39:09]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [39:10]
Chelsea
I learned that I didn't want to be a hustler. I had done that and it served me well. Especially when I was a single mother doing all of these things. If I did the same thing Today that I did back then, it wouldn't work. That's how different things are. But I hustled, and I put in the grit and the time and the hours. But then I realized, I don't want to work like this for the rest of my life. So then I had the opportunity to go into a business I was recruited to, and I made vice president in the first year. And that was my first experience in leadership. And that experience showed me how important, important leadership really is. Leadership will make or break your business in a lot of different ways. And so I started to study the art of leadership and how leadership is actually an act of service, which goes against what I grew up seeing. I always saw, like, iron Fist Ra do what I say and don't question it. And so that was a big shift for me, was learning how to serve people. And I believe in good karma. I believe if you have good intention and you want what's best for your clients and your team, it will unfold the way it needs to.
- [40:30]
Tyson Mutrix
What is one bit of leadership advice you'd like to pass on to law firm owners?
- [40:40]
Chelsea
Ask questions before you come to conclusions and be willing to have the hard, uncomfortable conversations without bias.
- [40:51]
Tyson Mutrix
I think that's fantastic advice that's worth listening to this episode by itself, because I think a lot of people do immediately jump to, oh, this is the conclusion of this. This person did that, and they need to ask questions. I've got to get to this. I want to make sure I ask. You've got a book coming out, I think, and so tell us about the book. When's it come out? How do they get it? Give us a sneak peek, for sure.
- [41:17]
Chelsea
So we don't have a title yet. We're in the very beginning stages. And my book is actually a little bit outside of law firm finance. My book is about women and finance in particular. Women in particular have a specific history with money. And just like we've talked about, your upbringing dictates your core values and beliefs. Imagine that from a generational standpoint. And I go over the history of money to help women understand and give themselves grace around why we feel behind. Not only that, but we have what is going to be the greatest wealth transfer in history about to happen over the next 20 years. And my goal with the book is to position women to be prepared for the opportunity to educate themselves on financial literacy, to know what's coming and to do right by it and not squander it.
- [42:20]
Tyson Mutrix
I love that. That's. That's great. I can't wait to wait for it to come out. That's awesome. I'm gonna read it too, because I want to know all that stuff too. I want to know how to position myself. So let's.
- [42:30]
Chelsea
So my second book is already planned. And my second book is going to be for men.
- [42:34]
Tyson Mutrix
Nice.
- [42:35]
Chelsea
Okay, yes, read both, by all means, but men. I'm not leaving you out of the conversation.
- [42:40]
Tyson Mutrix
I like it. Very good. Obviously, people can come out and talk to you whenever they come out to Max Lawcon. If they go out there. The name of the company, I don't think I've mentioned it. I think you've mentioned Core Solutions. But it's Core Solutions Group. They can go to maxlocon.com to get those tickets that they can come out and talk to you about there. But where, where else can people go to connect with you and start learning more about managing their money?
- [43:08]
Chelsea
Tyson, I feel like we're everywhere and on the website there's links to everything. YouTube, Instagram, heck, I'm on TikTok. We're just splattered everywhere. And the website will show you all the things. Things.
- [43:22]
Tyson Mutrix
Love it. Well, thanks for being the sponsor of the conference and we've always had a great relationship with you all over the years. So thanks for being with us from the beginning. So I really appreciate that. And thanks for sharing your knowledge on the show too. I think that this is a great episode for people to learn from, so I really appreciate it.
- [43:39]
Chelsea
Yes, thank you.
- [43:48]
Tyson Mutrix
Foreign.
- [43:56]
Jessica Gonifiss
If you're a law firm owner who thinks like a business owner, not just a lawyer, this is for you. July 17th and 18th, we're hosting our next in person Mastermind in New York City. We're kicking off with a strategy workshop with Jessica Gonifiss of Silver Peaks Accounting. Dialing in your numbers so you can make smart CEO level moves. Then it's straight into Mastermind. Hot seats. No fluff, no filters, just real strategy, real feedback and breakthroughs. Plus, we're hosting an exclusive dinner. Bring a plus one. Connect deeply and build the kind of relationships that transform businesses. If you're ready to think bigger, move faster and scale smarter, get your mastermind ticket@maxlawevents.com.