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- [00:01]
A
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B
this is
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A
Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. All right, Allison, I want to start with this. What was it like because you, you started on the healthcare side, right?
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B
Yes.
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A
Okay.
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B
My first career was in healthcare, sales and marketing.
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A
All right, so you kind of saw like the business side of things. How did that help you when it comes to running a law firm?
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B
Well, it helps when you, for one. So I, I did have a non traditional path to law school. I had a career before I went to law school. I went to law school in my 30s. And so it just helps run a law firm because you understand what you have to do day in and day out just to meet the minimum requirements of, of being an adult. You have to be receptive to people. You have, you have people that you know are your boss you have to report to and you see the decisions that they make with personnel. And sometimes you're brought into those decisions, sometimes you're not brought into those decisions. You learn things as you go, just like you do being a law firm owner. And so it does help if you've had, I think it helps if you've had a career before being a law firm owner other than being a lawyer.
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A
I would agree. I think it's pretty helpful. It gives you a little bit of context in life. Almost is sales because of your background, Is it a pretty big part of what you all do with the law firm?
- [02:56]
B
Yes, that's the part that I enjoy the most, is the business operations and the marketing. I am fortunate to have a partner who is. He's a very good attorney. He loves being an attorney. And he will compliment me and he will say, alison, you're an excellent attorney too.
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A
And.
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B
But what I really feel, my strength is, is, is operating the law firm, because when you're in sales, you're looking, whether you're selling a product or a service, you're looking for what is my ideal customer? How do I find them? How do I identify them? How do I set myself apart from the competition? How do I find the most profitable customer? Are there things I can do with my pricing where I can do the same amount of work and, and be more profitable? So those are the things I really love about running the law firm and, and looking at the data, trying new things, seeing what works.
- [03:55]
A
You're using a vocabulary that they don't really teach in law school. So I wonder, when it comes to your law partner, what, did he speak the same language as you when it comes to that?
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B
No, initially he didn't. So my law partner, Mark, is. We met in law school and we were night law students. And so we were in an environment where we all had careers and we went, we went to work all day, and then we went to law school at night, which is a really interesting experience. It's a unique experience, one I don't want to repeat ever. But the people that I had the privilege of going to law school with was remarkable. And Mark was a pharmacist before he went to law school. And so initially, you know, he was not. I feel like I'm sort of the one who encouraged him. You know, you have, you have a really special gift and you have a skill set, and I don't, I don't see why you would go work for someone else. And so it was, it was a path to get to our law firm ownership. And initially, I don't know that he saw the vision. I would talk about, where, where do you see us in five years? And he would say, I'm just putting my head down and doing the work. But I will, I will say now we are aligned in sort of the law firm ownership vision. It is, it is a business. And of course, we've grown over the last eight years since we've been doing it full time. So we're in a, in a better position to, to have the clients and the type of casework that we want to do. We have people working for us that can do other types of work. So I will give props to Mark. He's come a long way in his vision.
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A
What did it take to get the two of you on the same page when it comes to that?
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B
Just a lot of hard conversations about what we wanted and what we wanted for the future again, when we were, you know, when we were starting out, we weren't young people to begin with, and I would love to be that young again now, but we weren't young people, you know, to begin with. And Mark's 10 years older than me now, so I'm in my mid-40s, and he's in his mid-50s. And so it was just. It was really a lot of hard conversations about, do we have the same vision? What is it, you know, what is it that we really want to do to grow the firm and, you know, someday to be able to enjoy. Enjoy the fruits of our labor more, you know, step away from the firm a little bit more, have it operate more independently of us, which is always a work in progress. And then, you know, I always make the joke. I. I don't want to build point ones until the day I die. So it was just a lot of hard conversations to. To get to a point where we were aligned. And, you know, pharmacists tend to be conservative people. And, you know, so I think just the idea of him working for himself and how am I going to get enough business to support myself and my business partner, let alone, you know, now we've got about 25 people. That took some time, I think, for him to grow the confidence that, yes, we can really do that. And he's an excellent partner, an excellent business operator as well.
- [07:17]
A
How'd you pick your niche?
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B
Well, because of Mark. Mark is a pharmacist by his first career. We met in law school, and he knew that I had been in healthcare sales and marketing. So after law school, he went to a big law firm here in. In Phoenix that has a big health law pharmacy group practice specifically. And I went to my brother's law firm, and I ran their Social Security disability department for a couple of years. And I didn't. I didn't love that. I learned a lot from my brother about law firm ownership. And, you know, he was. He was sort of my mentor. But eventually I called Mark and I said, hey, I just wanted to touch base with you, see what you're doing. And he said, well, I like being at the big law firm. But it's hard to be a 43 year old associate. And so he says, but, you know, the value of being here is that I've learned, you know, there really isn't any magic. And the people here are wonderful and they're very smart people, but I think with our backgrounds, we could do just as good a work. And he said, I know that you would like health law. With your background, it's something that I can teach you. It's something different, something new every day. And so that's really what drove the niche of the firm, is his background, his network of people. For a while, we were pulled in house by a client and we ran their mail order pharmacy business here in Scottsdale.
- [08:45]
A
Interesting.
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B
So that was a very interesting opportunity. For a few years we did that, and then ultimately we went back to the law firm full time.
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A
Wow. Okay, we gotta talk about this. I was gonna go somewhere else with this, but okay, so you have a firm. You've, you've. And I, I wanna get back to the conversation about how it started, but I wanna, I wanna stay on this for a second.
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B
Sure.
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A
So you have this firm, you started this firm, and then all of a sudden you get this offer to go in house and like, does the firm then dissolve?
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B
So. No, the firm did not dissolve. I would say that we were dormant for a few years. Like, the firm existed as a legal entity, but we didn't have any outside clients.
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A
Did you bring all your people with you at that?
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B
At the time the people were Mark and I.
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A
Okay, so it was just two of you. Okay, so you didn't have any staff?
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B
Nope.
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A
Okay. Did you feel like it's at some point that you had sold out your dream to come in house?
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B
No. It's interesting. We felt like we were on top of the world to go in house.
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A
Really?
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B
Yes, because so Mark, Mark was brought on as CEO and then he brought me on as general counsel. And looking back on it, it was such a critical experience to where we are now as law firm owners, because we were actually, for a few years, we were more in the position of our clients running and operating this pharmacy operation. And we grew it from, you know, one pharmacy in Scottsdale, you know, had to expand in the alley across the street to another pharmacy and a call center here in South Scottsdale, and then building and buying pharmacies all over the country, including one in Puerto Rico, which is fascinating. So it was, it was honestly the best paid education we could have. We could have gotten. And I think that's one thing I really Value is the position that it put us in just to learn to be exposed to a network of people. And really, it makes us, I think, more sympathetic to our clients and more, you know, we have a better capacity to understand their business challenges. Like, it's very hard to operate a compliant, profitable healthcare business. And so to understand their challenges and have been in those shoes. And I think that just makes us better external counsel now, because I, I, we pride ourselves on giving our clients, like, real answers. You know, this is what the law says, not just the risk or, you know, this is low risk, high risk, but, you know, this is the enforcement position of the regulatory agencies. And, you know, this is what we would do if we were operating your business. This is how you can implement it and operationalize it. And so that experience was so valuable.
- [11:43]
A
So you weren't just brought in house, you were coming in and running a company, which is really interesting, I guess. How did that, how did that whole idea present itself? Like, how did that offer present itself?
- [11:54]
B
So when Mark was working at the big firm in Phoenix, they brought on a client that, you know, sort of had an idea about manufacturing and running a pharmacy. Around the time he and I formed the law firm, he, he left the big firm and he took this client with him as a client. And the interesting thing about our clients is that they can use all sorts of law firms, you know, for different purposes. I mean, and, you know, sometimes depending on what the client needs, you know, they need to go to the big law firm if they need an army of people to stay up all night and file an injunction in federal court. So our clients are unique in that way where they don't usually just have one law firm. And so, you know, that's not, that's not out of the ordinary. But we were doing some, we were doing some work for them, and then they, they came to Mark and they said, you know, we really, we really need to hire. Like, this is not just a Scottsdale pharmacy anymore. It's, you know, and because of certain market forces with the insurance companies that, that pay pharmacies, they needed to expand their footprint. So that's what, that's what brought, brought Mark and I into the fold, and that's how they approached him.
- [13:10]
A
What a cool idea. Like what, what fascinates me is the fact that you two have kind of switched roles where, like, now you're running the firm and he's more of legal counsel, which is kind of interesting. Has that dawned on you?
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B
Yeah, it's interesting. Yes.
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A
So how did that. Okay, so how did that happen? Now, when you all were running the first version of the firm, were you in the same positions you are now or did you flip flop?
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B
No, I mean, when the firm initially started, we were just doing whatever had to be done.
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A
Okay.
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B
And, you know, there's no pecking order.
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A
Yep.
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B
No, no, I mean, I was, I would say, practicing more at that time. We were just, you know, we always say just shooting the zombie closest to us whatever had to be done.
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A
It's a really, it's a really smart way of putting it. That's. That's right. Very accurate. But. Okay, so you, you, you flipped roles from the, the company that you went in house for and then what played in the decision to actually go with, okay, you're going to be running the company, he's going to be legal counsel. Like, why'd you make that decision?
- [14:15]
B
I was very clear in my, I've always, I feel like I've always been very clear in my communications that this is what I like to do. This would be my goal, which would be to focus more on the law firm management, the law firm operation, and the law firm growth. And of course, we collaborate on everything for the most part, you know, but I've just always been very clear in. I thought my goal in going to law school would be to be a business owner or a law firm operator. And I thought that that was more my strength than getting in the weeds of, you know, some regulatory analysis or being a litigator. And I'm just, I'm fortunate that we've been able to hire very good people that are, frankly better at that than I am.
- [15:10]
A
Let's talk about that. Because you had that three, three year break where you were working for the company, and that was after you'd been running the firm and you have the employees. So it seems like you've, you've had quite a bit of growth when it comes to at least staff.
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B
Yes.
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A
So how have you been able to hire good people so quickly? That's, I mean, it's, it's not an easy task to do.
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B
It's not easy. We have looked for people. I would say one of our strengths is trying to draw on people that have experience in, in the field, but maybe have been on the other side of the table. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. One of our attorneys used to be the attorney for some of the regulatory boards in here, here in Arizona. So he would prosecute cases for the nursing board or for the pharmacy board. And he was one of our first attorney hires. That was a pretty natural move for him, was to come to the private sector. And now he defends healthcare providers when they have complaints in front of their regulatory boards. But that's been a blessing because he knows the administrative law so well. He knows those boards so well. Another hire we were able to make was actually not an attorney. We have a pharmacist who used to be the national lead auditor for CVS Caremark, one of the major PBMs. And we were able to bring him on and he helps our clients with their audits, which can be devastating to their business financially and they can lose their network status. And we were able to hire a pharmacist attorney who had been an inspector, a compliance inspector with the Arizona Board of Pharmacy. And when she retired from that position, she came to our firm. So we've tried to find and target people that have this sort of real life experience in the field, and then that translates well to our firm and to supporting our clients.
- [17:16]
A
That I think that's really smart. That's really kind of interesting. Now, the pharmacist attorney, you said, is it an attorney that represents pharmacists or an actual. Another pharmacist that became an attorney, another
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B
pharmacist that became an attorney?
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A
Is there like some, like, stockpile of pharmacists that are wanting to become attorneys? Like, what's going with that?
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B
So it's interesting. There's obviously very niche, very. There's a. There's probably several hundred pharmacist attorneys in the nation. I don't. I don't know, maybe if I had to guess, I'd say maybe 500 to a thousand. I don't know, maybe a couple thousand. The difference is, like, a lot of times there are people that they just go from pharmacy school to law school, and they never actually practice, really. And so, like, they have an education that's valuable. But, you know, that was one of the things about my partner Mark, is that he actually practiced for like 15 years before he went to law school. That is, you know, really where we, you know, we can say, and we've run healthcare operations. I think that's what's really valuable to the clients. You know, the education piece is certainly important, but someone that's like, actually worked in a healthcare operation is. Is even more valuable.
- [18:25]
A
Curious about Mark. Did he work for one of, like, the smaller pharmacies that was then acquired by one of the bigger ones, or did he work for one of the bigger ones? Because it's hard to operate a smaller One in this.
- [18:34]
B
Yeah. So he's, he's done it all. I mean he's done, you know, retail. He worked for a compounding pharmacy here that later became very large national compounding pharmacy, a network of pharmacies and then was later bought by one of the, one of the healthcare insurance companies. And they're all vertically integrated now. So you have health insurance companies that own pharmacy benefit managers that own their own pharmacies. And that's part of what we fight against is those big conglomerates that are, that are competing against our clients.
- [19:10]
A
Have you thought about doing some sort of vertical integration with the law firm?
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B
What do you mean?
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A
Like in, in any capacity. I wonder if you had, if you've seen what's happening in the healthcare industry and maybe think, oh, we can do this over in the legal industry.
- [19:22]
B
Yeah, that's. So I think what I have really become more interested in even in the last couple years. Yes. Is, is really niching down and I think like expanding the services that the firm offers to more consultative and subscription types of services and so expanding sort of like laterally and I can give you an example of that. So, and these are things that don't involve, you know, again, just the traditional law firm services, billable by the hour services. And so it's developing products for our clients like you know, a compliance gap analysis for their operation so that we can inspect their operation just as a regulator would and help them help ensure that they are meeting all of the legal criteria, all of the regulatory criteria for any agency that will, that can oversee them and that can be their, their state board of pharmacy, that can be the dea, sometimes that's the fda. So there are, you know, many agencies that, that can regulate our clients. And so that's something that we're moving into more is developing these product based things that clients can purchase and sometimes that's annuity business as well because you know, they'll need an annual inspection so that they can get their permit renewals or just to make sure that operationally they don't have huge compliance gaps. And the nice thing about doing that in the law firm is that we can keep it attorney client privileged.
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A
Oh, that's good point.
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B
So yes, big fan of that.
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A
Yeah, well that's a good idea is the idea for them as a selling point you'll spend this smaller amount now that way you're not having to pay us hourly on the back end. Is that kind of the idea?
- [21:19]
B
Right, right. It's a, it's a more proactive compliance approach. For example, like, you know, I mentioned these pharmacy benefit managers. Any of our clients that bill third party payers have contracts with these payers and they will audit them because the insurance companies have hired the pharmacy benefit manager to audit a pharmacy if they have a contract that's part of their service to their health, health insurance client. And so we know our clients are going to get audited and there's going to be documentation that they have to provide, you know, to prove that they have been compliant with the provider manual. And these are just contractual obligations. And so that's one of the products that we have is a PBM audit. Gap analysis is, you know, to really run the client through the rigors of an audit, just like they would have in the real world, and see if they can produce the documentation that they need to, because it's just a matter of time before they get audited. And some of these audits can be tens of thousands, if not millions of dollars and then they can lose their network status. So it really is a proactive approach. And of course, you know, the law firm still gets clients that are really in a bind. You know, I had my board of pharmacy in here, the dea, and they want to shut me down and what do I do now? And so that's the, obviously the reactive side, but I love the proactive side.
- [22:48]
A
Well, I love that you, you productize it and then you could, you could go out and sell that. You could, you could, if you wanted to, really create a sales team that goes out and just sells that. I think that's, I think that's what's really cool about it. Because like with like, like I do personal entry, I can't go out and drive traffic. Like, I can't, I can't make people get into car crashes, right? But I could sell the fear of this product, the, the PBM analysis, gap analysis, and I could go push that. I could actually send people out on, in a salesforce out and go push this product. I think it's brilliant. Like, where'd that idea come from?
- [23:22]
B
It's something that Mark and I have wanted to do really since running the law firm full time, which we started doing in about 2018, 2019, after we left the outside client job. It's something that we, we had a vision for and we've slowly developed it out over time. And now it's just sort of reaching a critical mass where it's like, okay, we have the product we're developing, you know, the, the programming and the coding to really make it more automated and produce A report at the end that's very, you know, very pretty and usable for the client. I mean, a lot of times we tell new, new, new attorneys half the battle's making it pretty.
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A
Absolutely, you gotta make it pretty.
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B
But yeah, just having sort of the coding behind some of the, especially the audit gap analysis tool. Cause you're, you're analyzing Excel spreadsheets and lots of data and things like that. So it's, we're really hitting a critical point now where now we have the tool and we have something to sell.
- [24:22]
A
I, something you said about that is I want to make sure we don't overlook this because a lot of it is in the presentation and it's so overlooked by people. Like, like what we'll do is like if we sent like an analysis of a case to a client, like I love like branding it and making it look good. Like it's an official thing. Clients eat that stuff up.
- [24:41]
B
Right.
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A
It's, it's a little bit of extra time to really, it just, it just adds this extra oomph to it. I wonder, like, is that something you learned in sales or like, where does it, where did that idea come from?
- [24:53]
B
Yes, I think in a little bit in sales. And then, you know, it's just, it is, it's, I think it's a sales and a marketing tool. It's. If you can't, if you can't do the small things well, like, why would a client think you can do the big things well?
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A
Right.
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B
And you know, there's something that I've learned about that's another thing I love is, is teaching new attorneys like how to manage a client relationship. And it's the things that they don't teach you in law school. And Mark and I actually had a mentor and he said the clients don't know the difference between good legal work and bad legal work, but they know the difference between on time work and late work. And so it's just another one of those things like gotta make it pretty, you know, be on time. And really it is, it's reinforcing too to our staff that our clients are paying a lot of money for. You know, we always say for an hour of your time they could stay at a five star hotel. And that's really something to be aware of.
- [25:58]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, and be, be judicious with that and you know, value that time and make it your best work.
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A
Don't take it for granted.
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B
Right.
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A
Yeah. Why'd you choose sales? And it was, was sales before or after undergrad?
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B
After.
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A
Okay. So why sales?
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B
I think it was more a process of elimination, just ruling other things out. Also, before I finished college, I worked for an orthopedic surgeon. I had the opportunity to interact with a lot of sales and marketing people. And now granted, at the time I was 20 and I thought, oh, that would be fun. You get to take lunch to people. Which is, like, very oversimplified of what, like, healthcare sales and marketing really is. It's a lot of rejection. It's a lot of just persistence and polishing. And when you get an opportunity to speak to someone that is a decision maker, being concise, being pithy. I think I went into sales, you know, just thinking, oh, it'd be fun. You know, I like to talk to people. I'm a people person. But it's much harder than. Than what I thought it was when I was 20 and I had a sales rep, you know, bringing me snacks.
- [27:13]
A
Okay. So I imagine a salesperson starting their career being kind of peppy, you know, like, get full of energy, and then you're just hit with re. With rejection after rejection. It's like by the end of it, like, you're just worn down. Is that. Did you get to that point? That's what I have in my head.
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B
But yeah, I mean, you do, but I would. You know, I think I have a pretty. Because I had been on the other side too. Like, I had been behind the desk at the doctor's office. I had been the one they were trying to see for many years when I worked for this orthopedic surgeon. Yeah, again, it was just like, hey, they've got a lot on their plate as well, and maybe this isn't a good day. And, you know, so you have to try different approaches. And, you know, I think I. I think I had a pretty thick skin. I would usually joke with people when I was in sales, you know, like, eventually you're gonna like me. Like, just. Just give in. You'll like me eventually.
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A
So.
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B
So I was sort of. I was prepared for that because I'd been on the other side.
- [28:12]
A
Yeah. What was the key to getting to the decision makers?
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B
Well, okay, so the healthcare compliance attorney in me now cringes when I think about some of the things I did, you know, when I was in sales. Because obviously now, like, as a healthcare attorney, we advise our clients on compliance and anti kickback and inducement. You know, I probably did some stuff as a salesperson that, you know, there are taking people coffee and treats and stuff. I tried to stay away from the lunches If I could what? Just because I didn't find that that was the most quality time. And you know, sometimes it's just, it's, it's a lot of money and a lot of effort and you don't ever really talk to a decision maker.
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A
Yeah. You don't really get the bang for the buck.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Okay, so what were like some of the, the gifts, I guess that were, that would be what were the best gifts.
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B
Okay. So this is, I wouldn't say it's the best gift, but I think one of the silliest things my sales partner and I did and this is when this was actually my last. Was it my second year of law school. I was working for a home health company and we were, you know, so you're, you're trying to get physicians to refer patients to you that need in home, like nursing or physical therapy, like medical, medical needs. And my, my sales partner and I, we always thought the sales material from the company was lame. Like this is lame.
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A
Probably no one ever read it either.
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B
So we had an idea and we made, we sort of made homemade s' mores and boxes and it had graham crackers and peep marshmallows and then pieces of chocolate. And we wrote on it, we'll give you our peeps if you give us your peeps. And so very cheesy. Yes, very cheesy.
- [30:09]
A
Effective.
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B
It was actually extremely effective. And then another thing we gave, you know, in home health there's usually most home health companies have programs to help people prevent fall prevention elderly people from falling in their home, which is a good mission. We would give the medical assistance at our accounts. Weeble wobbles, you know, so just like that was just, I mean those were in the days where we were carefree and probably not very compliant.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah.
- [30:39]
B
And now again, that's what I say. The healthcare compliance attorney in me cringes. But that is something that we do at the law firm is we, we help our, our clients with their marketing and their advertising that can just be completely, completely non compliant. And sometimes we'll have like very dire consequences. You know, there can be referrals to the Department of Justice if they're providing really gifts over a certain amount to people that can make referrals for Medicare or Medicaid beneficiaries. So like I, you know, I, I joke about it, but like there can be very serious consequences for people, you know, and usually that's like the bigger stuff. I mean that's just people straight up paying for referral. Referrals or you know, taking physicians to paying for vacations or like, very costly dinners and things like that. So that has benefited me in helping clients with, you know, hey, when you have salespeople in your healthcare business, this is, this is what you have to do to be compliant. And obviously there's some tension there because a salesperson wants to make sales. They're not there to make your base salary, they're there to get paid. And usually there's a bonus system and that can be structured compliantly. It's just, you know, it's, it's, it's just an education piece. So I've done that a lot now on the, on the lawyer side is helping our healthcare clients with their marketing and their advertising and, and being compliant there.
- [32:05]
A
I, I think, I think it's interesting because the same people that you serve now or the same people that you were trying to sell to before, it's just. You're just in a different role. Do you ever use any of the same kind of marketing tricks, like the peeps idea?
- [32:17]
B
Not as cheesy.
- [32:18]
A
Yeah.
- [32:19]
B
But, you know, I mean, sometimes with the. It's fun with the tchotchke companies to think of things that are fun. We had, we went to a conference once, and it was in Arizona, and it was in the middle of the summer. And so we had, we had bozen and snow beach balls. And of course, then everyone at the conference had a beach ball in the hotel pool. And Mark and I were talked to because they were not happy about the bozo's snow beach balls in the pool. And there was another time I really thought it would be funny to have bozen and snow, like tattoos, like temporary tattoos. And we were doing a giveaway for an iPad. This was at a. We did an exhibit booth and this, this sweet girl put, like, our tattoos all over. And I'm like, I'll just give you the iPad. Like, we won't do a drawing. You. You win. You know?
- [33:08]
A
That's so cool.
- [33:09]
B
Yeah.
- [33:09]
A
Like, the, the point is, like, marketing doesn't have to be boring now. And especially because, like, you are. You were like, in a niche that people could, like, think, oh, you gotta be really, like, formal and all that. That's. I mean, they're humans too. Like, you're dealing with humans. Do you think you would have been so comfortable if you hadn't already been in that sales position to do things like that?
- [33:29]
B
No. No, I don't think so.
- [33:30]
A
I love the beach ball idea, by the way.
- [33:32]
B
Yeah.
- [33:32]
A
Who was mad at the hotel or the conference?
- [33:34]
B
Yeah, the hotel.
- [33:34]
A
Okay.
- [33:35]
B
Yeah.
- [33:35]
A
A lot of times it's the conference. We're like. They're like, well, we. You didn't pay to be a sponsor. You know, something like that. Last time, it's them getting mad.
- [33:41]
B
But, no, we were legit. Like, we weren't. We weren't reading Crashers or anything. We were legit. But, yeah, the hotel was not happy. But it is. It's. You know, it's. It's good to have fun. I mean, when you own a business, it's like you put your heart and soul on it, and there's. There's no fault in having a little fun.
- [33:58]
A
And so I wonder, like, what's your background?
- [34:00]
B
Like.
- [34:01]
A
Cause, like, you are very personable, and I. That is something that you can. I don't know. I don't. It's hard to teach. I don't know if you can teach it. So, like, what is. Like, where does that come from? Like, what's your upbringing like? I'm very curious.
- [34:10]
B
So I was born in Arizona. I'm from. I'm the youngest of five, I think. You know, my. My dad was a high school drama teacher. So, like, I was in the plays as kids. My parents put me in dance lessons. So I think that is something great, whether it's dance lessons or sports or something, like, something that just instills some confidence. And so I've always been comfortable, you know, with speaking and when I was a. When I was a dancer, performing cheerleader in high school, stuff like that. So, you know, I've always considered myself kind of an outgoing person and like, to have fun in. In what I'm doing, sometimes maybe too much fun. Sometimes maybe I should be more serious.
- [34:57]
A
But especially, like, the sales job, I'm assuming that there's a lot of fun being had from. At least from movies. I've seen about, like, the sales position, like, for, like, the healthcare industry. Seems like it's, like, all parties all the time, right?
- [35:07]
B
It can be. It can be.
- [35:09]
A
Yeah. Interesting. So what, like, what was that turning point where you're like, okay, I want to be a lawyer. Like, what. What shifted? Like, why. Why did you go from item and sales to, I'm gonna go to law school. That's a big difference, right?
- [35:20]
B
Again, I think it was a process of elimination. And one of my brothers was a lawyer, and he has had. He passed away in 2022, but he had a large workman's compensation firm here in Arizona. That was my first job out of law school.
- [35:37]
A
Gotcha.
- [35:38]
B
And he was very successful. His firm is still. Still in existence, and, and even after he left and they're doing very well, I just. There was a process of elimination where I'm like, okay, I'm in sales. I'm in my early 30s. I need to figure out what I want to do. I saw my brother Chad, and he was. He was a lot like me. We're very. We were very similar personality wise. Like, people would just always say, like, Allison is like, Chad with breasts. I hope you can edit that out.
- [36:08]
A
No, it's staying in.
- [36:09]
B
That's good. So. So, you know, he was, you know, he was my big brother and he was my mentor, and I thought, I, I'm gonna go to law school. And there happened to be a night law school program in Phoenix at the time. And so that was an opportunity for me to continue working and, and to go to law school at the same time.
- [36:29]
A
How hard is it?
- [36:30]
B
It's just a process of elimination.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah. You mentioned, like, it was difficult, like. Like how, like, you were working all day and then going to law school at night. Like, how many hours, like, how many years did that take?
- [36:39]
B
So it was supposed to be a four year program. Mark and I did it in three.
- [36:44]
A
So. You're crazy. You're both nuts. Okay. But you have work ethic. That's good. That's really. Yeah, yeah.
- [36:49]
B
That was the interesting thing about the night law school program is that, like, just very dedicated people, you know, totally adults in the room, because these were people that were very driven. We went in. It was a. It was supposed to be a four, four year, part time program. We went in and, you know, we did summer courses. And then really, at the end of my second summer, I realized if I really wanted to, I could be done in my third year. I think I took almost half of my law school credits my last year.
- [37:21]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [37:23]
B
So that was wild. But I just, you know, you get to the point where you're like, I've worked all day and then I go to school all night, and if I can get into the workforce one year earlier, totally worth it.
- [37:33]
A
I mean, that's. That's, that's a significant difference.
- [37:35]
B
Yeah.
- [37:36]
A
Wow. Okay. So I do wonder, like, you went from a sales position and you were doing sales in law school, right?
- [37:42]
B
Yes.
- [37:43]
A
What was it like going. And you. So did you start working right out of law school for someone? Is that what you said?
- [37:50]
B
I did. I did. I. So I took the bar exam. I got married three days later, and then right after that, I started working for my brother until I was licensed.
- [38:00]
A
Okay, so you had a salary at least. Because I was wondering because, like, if you went straight into opening your own law firm, it would be kind of hard to go from making a salary to, to not making a salary. That's kind of tough.
- [38:10]
B
Right? And that was one of the things Mark was always, you know, I've been an employee and, and, and so it was giving him that, man, you're crazy to work for someone else.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah.
- [38:20]
B
Like, you've got a license to print money. Why would you work for someone else?
- [38:23]
A
True.
- [38:24]
B
Yeah.
- [38:24]
A
No, I mean, it's, it's good advice. It really is good advice. What was the reason why you left working for him?
- [38:30]
B
My brother. Yeah, So I, My brother, like I mentioned, he. His firm was a workman's compensation firm. Sort of tangential to that is Social Security disability. If, if people get injured on the job and they can't go back to work or transition new work. And so I ran the Social Security disability department for a while, for a couple years, and I just wasn't extremely passionate about, about that type of law.
- [38:58]
A
So was he already doing social, Social Security disability, or did. Okay, so it's not something you started up for? Okay, no. Did you kind of take over that part of the firm?
- [39:05]
B
I took over, yeah. That practice area and, you know, learned a lot. I mean, obviously learned a ton. I was just, you know, I had resources, but it was like, here you go, volume practice. You know, I did that for a couple of years. But I did get to, you know, to the point where I really was questioning, is this what I want to do with my law career? Is this going to give me a path, you know, to law firm ownership? And, you know, again, and my brother and I had some hard conversations and he's like, allison, I think you're like me and you sort of want to be the boss. And that's when I called Mark and he had been at the big firm and he said, yeah, you know, it's really hard to be a 43 year old junior associate. And, you know, I think we could, I think we have complimentary skills. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, before my brother passed away, I was talking to him and he's like, it's really amazing what you, what you've done. And I'm, you know, I'm really proud of you. And so that was like a nice circle moment.
- [40:07]
A
Was he upset when you left? No, no, no.
- [40:10]
B
I think, you know, I think that was, that was something that it was a mutual conversation. And that's always hard when it's family, the family relationship is more important. And fortunately for both of us, it was like. It wasn't like I was like, oh, but I love it and I want to do this forever, you know, and so that, that was nice.
- [40:32]
A
All right, so based on what you said that he said was, did you have problems having with him telling you what to do? Was that part of the problem?
- [40:41]
B
I think, reflecting on it, yes. There was times where, you know, I didn't like decisions or. But now being a law firm owner, I can absolutely see where he was coming from.
- [40:55]
A
Oh, completely.
- [40:57]
B
You know, for the most part, I can see. And, you know, and now when I, when I do reviews with employees or I give them feedback or I coach them, I'm just like, wow, 10 years ago, this would have been the type of stuff Chad Snow would have told me that I hated, you know, and, and here I am, you know, the shoes on the other foot. And it's like I, you know, I'm, I'm running a business. And, and when, you know, especially when you're a young professional or a young employee, you don't, you don't even contemplate that.
- [41:25]
A
All right, so you call Mark. I'm assuming it didn't. The decision wasn't made in one phone call. So talk me walk us through the progression that you had with those conversations and the decision to actually. You two join up together.
- [41:38]
B
Yeah. So it wasn't one phone call. We talked about it on the phone. We met a couple times. Mark, you know, had been my friend in law school. He had been at my wedding two days after we took the bar exam. You know, so he knows my husband. Our, our families are close families. Met a couple times just to talk about, you know, really starting this firm. What are we going to do?
- [42:02]
A
So the whole family's method. Yeah, yeah.
- [42:06]
B
And, you know, what are we going to do until, like, the firm really has legs and can and can support us and, you know, so really in its infant phase. It was, it was sort of a part time, let's see, you know, if we can, if we. Mark could take some clients from the big firm with him. He actually worked in political advocacy for a while, like for a drug manufacturer. And I stayed at my brother's firm for a while to wind down there while he sort of taught me some health law things. And, you know, the firm had a few clients. And then it was after a while, not too soon after we formed the firm, that our external client approached us about coming in house.
- [42:52]
A
Interesting. Also, like, very good Timing.
- [42:54]
B
Yes.
- [42:55]
A
That seems like really good timing.
- [42:56]
B
Yeah.
- [42:57]
A
Did it ever. Whenever Chad passed, did it ever, like, cross your mind, like, maybe I could go and take over his firm and do my own thing over there? Did they ever cross your mind?
- [43:06]
B
No.
- [43:06]
A
No, no. You were happy?
- [43:07]
B
Yeah, I was happy. He built a great firm, and he has, you know, wonderful partners, and. No, that's. That's his legacy. And, you know, and they're doing a wonderful job carrying on his legacy. And. And by that time, that was just about four years ago since he passed. And so, you know, Mark and I were starting to grow. We, at that point, we had more attorneys working for us, and. And we're. We're a little bit more established, so we felt like we were off to the races.
- [43:37]
A
Who do you think between you and Mark was more the one pushing, kind of spearheading, wanting to start your own firm?
- [43:42]
B
Oh, me, for sure.
- [43:43]
A
Really?
- [43:44]
B
Yeah. I'm. I'm the dreamer. Of the two of us. I mean, I'm the one. But I will say, like, Mark has. He's really gotten there, where he's like, yeah, I want to spend more time running the firm, too. I want to do the cases that I want to do. You know, he's really grown to like litigation more than he thought he ever would. Some of our clients are being sued by Eli Lilly, and they're compounding pharmacies and med spas. And so he's. We're. We're sort of the subject matter experts in that litigation. And he's like, I really. I really like the litigation, and I want to do the lawyering I want to do. But, you know, I really want to. Really want to run the law firm more, too, and develop sort of these products and this annuity type of business. But I'm. I'm definitely the dreamer. I mean, I'm the dreamer. I'm the one that's like, what's next? What's next? And, you know, we always joke that Mark is the one that makes sure that we have malpractice insurance and general. You know, he understands the technology systems and, you know, so it's. It's a good partnership. It's very complimentary.
- [44:53]
A
So how do you all divide up leadership responsibilities? Cause that is interesting, what you just said. I assume that that was all on you, but, like, so how do you divide that up?
- [45:02]
B
So we have. We have an admin meeting every week with our firm administrator, and I think it's, you know, pretty naturally, there's things that we just sort of have a tendency or to, to take, you know, when, when we're talking about whether the firm runs on a server or the cloud, I feel like an old person, you know, the cloud with the air quotes around it and some of those system things. I'm going to defer more to Mark on our, on some of the infrastructure things. When it comes to some of the marketing training, support staff. Before I got into sales and marketing, I worked in law firms and you know, I was a file girl in high school and I worked in law firms as a non lawyer. So that's one thing I like to do is work on the support staff training. Like how can you identify how you can support your attorneys and leverage their time more? Because that's really what it's all about. And especially in a firm like ours where it's hard to build processes because our clients are generally business entities and they just come to you with a problem and it's sometimes similar to a problem another client has had. Sometimes it's a completely new business idea and no one's ever done it before and we don't even know if it's legal. And so from that standpoint, I imagine it's very different from what you do. Where there is. I can automate this and I can put a process in place. And so we sort of, just as we go, we sort of figure out those. These are the things that I have sort of a tendency to want to handle and these are the things that, that Mark will handle.
- [46:58]
A
Yeah, I do hear that a lot. From business, like business to business type of law firms where like they have, they have problems sort of automate, automating things, which I completely understand. Actually a lot of it is like you're dealing with like the decision makers like dead on you. I'm assuming you are like, right. And you're not like dealing with lower level employees. You're dealing with like the higher, higher ups is what you're doing. So I think that that part's kind of interesting. Like if Mark's wanting to deal litigation versus like some of this product, stuff like that is drastically different. Like that is system. You can't, you can create a system for the litigation stuff, but not for the other stuff.
- [47:30]
B
No. Yeah, because the other stuff has to be updated as well, you know, as, as laws change. And so that's sort of an ongoing, you know, how do we maintain that library of information and what's the cost associated of maintaining that information and make sure, making sure it's all up to date. If we do a 50 state survey on a topic. I mean it's accurate as of the time you do it, but you know, if it's something that you want to continue to monitor, that takes work and that takes time. So curious.
- [48:04]
A
Are you doing anything with AI?
- [48:06]
B
Sure. So we use Westlaw and there is, there's a, you know, some AI components of Westlaw that can help with, with contracts, contract drafting specifically so that we can tailor it to, to healthcare clients. We can tailor it to bigger clients or smaller clients, you know, more simplified contracts. Design tools for some of the marketing has been, is, is something that we're starting to work with so that you know, if we want to like sort of spin up a marketing piece for, for a conference or if we, if we speak at a conference we usually like to develop sort of like a tool or some take home material for the attendees that.
- [48:52]
A
Beach balls.
- [48:53]
B
Yeah, not beach balls, but yeah. Sort of practical tools or checklists that they can use in their operations. And you know there's, there's some AI tools that can be used to like put some. Make it look pretty sure. Right?
- [49:07]
A
Yeah.
- [49:08]
B
And, but I would absolutely be. That's one thing that I am interested in is how can AI help us now in our practice area? I'm not, I'm not necessarily worried that it's a replacement. I think it's an absolute compliment, you know, if sometimes clients ask really, really hard questions and I'm like, well that is a 50 state survey because the answer is different in all 50 states.
- [49:35]
A
Right.
- [49:36]
B
And that's research. Now I can have Westlaw or Practical Law. I can give that the question and that, that could give you some, some idea and some reference point.
- [49:50]
A
Baseline.
- [49:50]
B
Yeah. And, and then you know, we can, you know, we can price out a 50 state survey, but the clients generally depending on their sophistication level, especially if you're dealing with in House counsel, like they know I ought not rely on this solely. Sure. You know, this is a good reference point, a good starting point. But it's not, it's not, it's not stamped and approved by Bozen and Snow.
- [50:14]
A
No, very, It's a, it's sort of informal in a way. Yeah.
- [50:17]
B
Especially when you're in, in when you're in the regulatory space and in healthcare like you're just in the weeds. And one, one word can mean different things in different states.
- [50:29]
A
So it's like it's all weeds with. When it comes.
- [50:31]
B
All weeds. Yeah.
- [50:33]
A
Before we wrap things up, if someone wants to reach out to you, they have questions if they want to you know, run something by you. What's the best way to get in touch with you?
- [50:40]
B
Best way to get in touch with me is I will give you my direct email. It is ASNOW, as in Boy S, as in SamLaw USA.com and Mark and I realized at one point we were tired of spelling bosonsnowlaw.com so we just embraced the BS law.
- [51:01]
A
I love it. Yes.
- [51:02]
B
You know, we're like, hey, if Morrison Forrester can have mofo, we can have BS law.
- [51:06]
A
Mofo's the best.
- [51:07]
B
It is.
- [51:07]
A
Mofo.com is the best.
- [51:08]
B
It is. It is. So, yeah. So BS lawusa.com I'm just sad you
- [51:12]
A
couldn't get bslaw.com because that would have been even better.
- [51:15]
B
Yeah. We had to add the usa. I know someone had BS Law.
- [51:19]
A
That's a bummer.
- [51:19]
B
And I don't know if they're making fun of lawyers or if they're an actual law firm.
- [51:23]
A
It. It doesn't matter, silly. It's a great. It's a. We have to check it out. I'll have to check it out. You had mentioned how you kind of, like, think about, like, the future, like, what's next and everything. So I wonder, like, if you can talk about, like, what is next for girls firm.
- [51:36]
B
I think so. What's next is. Well, recruiting is always, always something that we are ongoing recruiting for. And recruiting for health lawyers, especially health lawyers that have, you know, are sort of like senior to mid level. Mid level to senior is extremely challenging because normally you're pulling from some of these big AM100 or AM200 firms and, you know, so you're sort of trying to find people that are like, okay, I'm burnt out at the big law firm. Maybe I actually have more opportunity at a smaller firm. So recruiting talent is always on the list. And that is never ending because ultimately, you know, Mark and I know that that's. That's how we are able to. To focus more on the operation and the growth of the firm and working on some of these products that. That become annuity business and subscription business. And so we were. We were able to recruit. We have a partner in Indiana. We were able to recruit her from. From one of the big law firms. Katie is wonderful. We're always just looking for talent, and that's the hardest piece. I'll be in the mastermind tomorrow, and I'm sure that'll be my topic in the hot seat.
- [52:57]
A
Can't wait.
- [52:57]
B
It's recruiting.
- [52:58]
A
Alison, thanks for doing this. Really appreciate it. I appreciate you taking time out of your day to do this. It's been great. I really love hearing about your background. Everything else, I really appreciate it.
- [53:06]
B
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Most law firm owners are either overthinking YouTube or completely avoiding it. The YouTube Accelerator in Chicago is going to fix that. This two day event on June 11th and 12th is built specifically for law firm owners who are ready to take YouTube seriously. You'll hear directly from guest experts, experts like Jeff Hampton and Ryan Weber. And we're covering the full YouTube growth stack, niche and content pillars, topic ideation and messaging, hooks and intros, thumbnails and titles, recording strategy, editing, channel positioning, and the growth systems that actually drive results. You'll walk away with a real plan you can execute. Get the full event details and grab your seat@maxlawevents.com.