Maximum Lawyer Podcast: The Future of Law Is Fewer Lawyers?
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: William T. Reed IV
Date: December 23, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Tyson Mutrux talks with William T. Reed IV—a renowned plaintiff’s attorney, firm founder, and author—about how technology and artificial intelligence (AI) are transforming the legal profession. The conversation dives into why the future might hold fewer lawyers, the evolution of legal careers, the enduring importance of experience and culture, and keys to building an adaptive legal team. Reed also shares practical career advice, his outlook on the future job market, and stories from his own professional journey.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Instilling Core Values in the Next Generation of Lawyers and Parents
- Work-Life Balance and Being Present
- Reed discusses the importance of “just being there,” prioritizing relationships with both family and friends alongside work.
- Quote: “Just being there is my answer.” (02:27, William T. Reed IV)
- Mutual reflection on how lawyers often struggle with work-life balance, but finding ways to invest in relationships is crucial.
- Reed discusses the importance of “just being there,” prioritizing relationships with both family and friends alongside work.
2. Passion Versus Profit in Law
- Motivation for Confronting Bullies
- Reed claims that real fulfillment in law comes from fighting for justice, not just making money.
- Cites high rates of depression, anxiety, and dissatisfaction in the legal field as a symptom of lawyers not following their passions.
- Quote: “Most people start out on the path of ‘I want to right wrongs, I want to achieve justice...’ Most people start on that path. And... so many lawyers end up on a path that doesn’t permit them or allow them to actually achieve justice.” (04:39, William T. Reed IV)
- Big Law and the Value of Legal Work
- Critique of “Big Law” partners commanding sky-high hourly rates while many frontline lawyers, especially in criminal defense, are financially struggling.
- Quote: “There’s a lot of amazing attorneys out there that are on the front lines doing criminal defense that aren’t making those $1,000–$2,000 rates... And it sucks. It really does suck.” (07:00, Tyson Mutrux)
- Critique of “Big Law” partners commanding sky-high hourly rates while many frontline lawyers, especially in criminal defense, are financially struggling.
3. The Impact of Artificial Intelligence on Law
- Efficiency and Business Model Disruption
- Reed argues that AI will force efficiency and lead to a contraction of legal jobs, particularly at lower levels and amongst hourly billing models.
- Foresees “corner office” partners eliminating large teams and shifting to subscription or flat-fee billing.
- Quote: “AI is going to force efficiency on all lawyers... The moment that corner office partner can figure out a way to convert their revenue stream from the hourly fee model is the moment that then hourly fee lawyers become like every other business in the world...” (10:34, William T. Reed IV)
- Job Market Uncertainty
- Reed questions: “We graduate over 40,000 lawyers a year... what are all these lawyers going to do with their law degrees in 2, 3, 4 years? I honestly don’t think there are going to be as many jobs.” (14:16, William T. Reed IV)
- Quality of Legal Services
- AI will not degrade quality; instead, it exposes inefficiencies and pushes lawyers to focus on irreplaceable human elements—client interaction, advocacy, and judgment.
Important Segment: The Future of Legal Work
- [09:08]: Discussion on how AI will affect both high-end and low-end legal services, with examples of big law rates and public defender alternatives.
- [13:05]: Explores whether AI will increase or decrease the quality of legal services.
4. Cultivating Experience and Adaptability
- Advice for Aspiring Lawyers
- Reed emphasizes gaining real experience over chasing high starting salaries.
- Encourages new grads to focus on trial work—experience AI cannot replicate.
- Quote: “If you chase salary to the exclusion of experience, you’re walking yourself into a dead end... the one thing AI isn’t going to replace are trial lawyers.” (14:46, William T. Reed IV)
- Challenges of Law School and Early Careers
- Early recruitment and predatory hiring in elite law schools push students into high-paying roles without much real experience.
- Reed advocates for a more apprenticeship-based or hands-on approach, likening it to the medical profession's rotation model.
- On Starting a Firm Without Experience
- Reed doubts fresh law grads can successfully launch their own firm without mentorship or apprenticeship, especially in complex fields.
- Quote: “You’ve got to learn from someone.” (35:20, William T. Reed IV)
- Reed doubts fresh law grads can successfully launch their own firm without mentorship or apprenticeship, especially in complex fields.
[Relevant Timestamps – AI and the Practice of Law]
- 09:52 Reed: AI’s impact on law firm economics and the shifting billing models.
- 13:16 Reed: AI’s effects on quality of legal work and future job prospects.
- 18:26 Reed & Mutrux: How AI is practically used now (e.g., drafting, editing, trial preparation).
- 21:18 Reed: How AI will “even out” resume snobbery by making research/writing skills less essential compared to human interaction and adaptability.
5. Law Firm Culture, Recruitment, and Team Building
- People & Grit Over Pedigree
- Reed assesses candidates by personality, passion, and determination, not solely by academic credentials.
- Uses a mock oral argument as part of the hiring process to evaluate real skills and grit.
- Quote: “I want to see grit. I want to see determination. I want to see some sort of, hey man, I’m not just looking to make a buck here. I want to do this, and I want to be good at it.” (40:12, William T. Reed IV)
- Firm-Wide, Collaborative Compensation
- All staff and attorneys receive bonuses together to foster a “one team” mindset.
- Practical example: Every member of the trial team contributed to and shared in the victory of a recent $112 million verdict.
- Story: [47:19–49:19]: Reed describes how junior lawyers took on significant roles at trial, reinforcing collaboration and team investment.
[Relevant Timestamps – Team, Culture, and Risk-Taking]
- 38:49 Reed: Building a good team — focus on authentic people, mock arguments, "grit test."
- 41:13 Mutrux & Reed: Using personality assessments as a tool (but not as sole determinant).
- 45:06 Reed: Maintaining firm culture—shared compensation, no “eat what you kill.”
- 49:31–56:57 Reed shares his firm’s biggest financial risk: spending $500k on a case for the Colombian government, walking away for ethical reasons—and how this risk built credibility that underpinned later firm success.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges
William T. Reed IV (09:52):
“The moment that corner office partner can figure out a way to convert their revenue stream from the hourly fee model is the moment that then hourly fee lawyers become like every other business in the world where actually managing your expense makes you more profitable.”
Tyson Mutrux (17:04):
“The firms that win... are the ones that capitalize on AI and then the human element of things, focusing more on the human element, only the things that humans can do.”
William T. Reed IV (14:46):
“If you chase salary to the exclusion of experience, you’re walking yourself into a dead end.”
William T. Reed IV (21:18):
“When you say, ‘I’ve got five Stanford graduates down the hall and they can research circles around you and write these briefs,’ well, what happens when ChatGPT 11 can write a better brief than all six of them in five minutes?”
William T. Reed IV (40:12):
“I want to see grit, I want to see determination, I want to see some sort of, hey man, I’m not just looking to make a buck here. I want to do this, and I want to be good at it.”
William T. Reed IV (49:54):
“We had four equity partners and four associates to start the firm. And it was 70 grand a month to pay those four folks... You could go a year without a fee. Like, you could get pot committed. But the silver lining: the biggest client... was so impressed by that case and how cool it sounded that he was like, ‘Well, you’re one crazy. So I’m gonna give you all this cool commercial stuff.’ And kind of built our firm on that client.”
Themes & Takeaways
- The legal profession is facing a massive transformation brought on by AI, which will force longstanding business models to adapt or perish.
- Experience and adaptability are more important than pedigree—trial skills, human connection, and learning from real challenges are irreplaceable.
- Culture and teamwork win over “eat what you kill”—shared victories and shared risk foster better teams and client service.
- Risk, resilience, and ethics are core to lasting success—walking away from short-term profit for long-term integrity can build a stronger firm.
- Law students and young lawyers should be wary of prestige-driven roles and instead seek real, practical experience that AI cannot easily replicate.
Segment Timestamps
| Timestamp | Segment Topic | |-----------|---------------------------------------------| | 01:29 | Parenting advice and work-life balance | | 03:41 | Motivation for challenging injustice | | 08:03 | Economics of legal services and big law | | 09:08 | Impact of AI on law firm business models | | 13:05 | AI and legal service quality | | 14:46 | Law school advice: experience vs. salary | | 21:18 | AI's effect on legal writing & research | | 38:49 | Building and assessing legal teams | | 45:06 | Firm compensation & maintaining culture | | 49:31 | Reed’s biggest financial risk |
Resources & Further Information
-
Book by William T. Reed IV:
Fighting Bullies—available on Amazon -
Contact Info:
reedcollins.com
This episode provides a roadmap for lawyers, law firm owners, and law students to thrive in a profession on the cusp of radical change—by doubling down on collaboration, practical wisdom, and the irreducibly human side of law.