The Hidden System Behind How You Make Decisions and Take Action

Summary

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Maximum Lawyer Podcast

Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Christine from Kolbe Corp
Episode: The Hidden System Behind How You Make Decisions and Take Action
Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the concept of "conation"—the instinctive ways people take action and make decisions—through the lens of the Kolbe assessment, an influential tool for understanding natural problem-solving strengths. Tyson Mutrux interviews Christine, a Kolbe expert, about the three parts of the mind, the distinctions between Kolbe and other assessments, and how harnessing these insights can improve teamwork, hiring, parenting, and personal fulfillment. The conversation dives deep into the core Kolbe categories, shares practical applications, and addresses common myths and misunderstandings about human motivation and productivity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Understanding the Three Parts of the Mind (Conative, Cognitive, Affective)

• Kolbe versus Other Assessments
  • Cognitive: Measures knowledge (e.g., SAT, Wonderlic).
  • Affective: Measures personality/motivation (e.g., DISC, Myers-Briggs).
  • Conative (Kolbe's domain): Measures instinctive methods of problem-solving—how you take action naturally.

    “None of [the other assessments] look at the instinctive ways that you actually get things done… Kolbe is looking at what do you naturally do really well.” – Christine (02:36)

Kolbe Assessments in Practice

• Kolbe’s Systems for Team Optimization

  • Identify individual strengths and approaches to work.
  • Optimize collaboration and role alignment.
  • Support in hiring and expanding teams.
  • Example: Training provided for Tyson’s firm to help understand team strengths and manage conflict.

  “We broke it down, what the three parts of the mind were, and all of the different instinctive ways that people approach problem solving… How can you leverage your differences and manage conflict in a way that’s helpful?” – Christine (04:27)

• Reliability and Taking the Assessment

  • Kolbe has high reliability (over 90% consistency even decades apart).
  • Most accurate when taken during a stable life period (not during big transitions).

  “More than 90% of the time… the results don’t change outside of a small margin of error.” – Christine (06:42)

The Four Kolbe Action Modes

• Fact Finder (Red): Handling information (detail-oriented vs. summarizing).
• Follow Thru (Blue): Dealing with systems/structure (organized vs. adaptable).
• Quick Start (Green): Attitude toward risk/uncertainty (innovators vs. stabilizers).
• Implementer (Yellow): Using physical space/tools (hands-on builders vs. conceptual thinkers).

  “Each one of them looks at a different way that we approach problem solving or making decisions.” – Christine (19:48)

Extremes and Middle Zones

• Extremes of each category bring unique strengths and challenges; middle zones bridge both sides.
• Visual aids and color-coded charts help teams quickly interpret differences.

Application to Children and Youth

• Kolbe Y Index for kids (recommended from ~4th grade)—helps guide educational and parenting decisions.

  “We have an assessment called the Kolbe Y Index that is designed for about a fourth, fifth grade reading level up to senior in high school… With a parent guide to help navigate.” – Christine (17:44, 18:42)

• Parenting example: Understanding a child’s Kolbe score can transform approaches to discipline, motivation, and education.

  “If I had only known what his Kolbe result was when he was younger and been able to set things up for him in a different way, then he wouldn’t have had to go through that kind of experience.” – Christine (15:14)

Role Alignment, Team Design, & Hiring

• Fitting people’s Kolbe strengths to their roles is key for productivity and well-being.

• Kolbe C Index used to define ideal strengths for a particular job (EEOC compliant and tailored to each firm/company).

• Kolbe B Index measures the alignment between a person’s natural instincts and their current job duties (“writing with your non-dominant hand” as a metaphor).

  “Just because someone’s Kolbe B Index doesn’t match their job doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be there… but chronic misalignment causes burnout.” – Christine (61:14)

• Hiring & Interviewing:

  • Use scenario-based and behavioral questions to uncover true values and instincts, not just stated preferences.

  “What you would do is you would ask about a real scenario… ‘Tell me about a situation like that and how did you handle it?’” – Christine (48:16)

Debunking Myths & Addressing Misconceptions

• Kolbe is not a personality or IQ test.
• No “good” or “bad” Kolbe scores—each profile is a superpower in the right context.
• Scores are not hereditary and don’t correlate with intelligence or academic achievement.

  “Every single part of your Kolbe result is a superpower, a strength, something that is amazing about you, that you bring to every table you come to, if you care.” – Christine (52:22) “It is not genetic… we did studies with identical twins… less than 20% had similar or same MOs.” – Christine (64:29)

Kolbe in Relationships & Families

• “Takes Two” report analyzes how couples’ Kolbe profiles interact; not a matchmaking tool but provides guidance to avoid misunderstanding.

  “…it’s really helpful for couples to get that understanding. Your spouse is not doing that to drive you crazy… that’s how they get things done.” – Christine (36:50)

The Book: Do More More Naturally

• Written by David Kolbe and Amy Bruske, stresses the importance of doing more in a way that feels natural, sustainable, and fulfilling.
  • Counters burnout culture.
  • Encourages alignment of work with natural strengths instead of external prescriptions.

  “Everywhere you go… there are books and gurus who are telling you to get more done… and all that does is burn people out. It sounds exhausting.” – Christine (35:16) “The key is finding that sweet spot in the middle where you’re able to get more done of the things that matter to you, but do it in a way that is more natural for you.” – Christine (39:29)

Culture, Values, and Unity

• Organization culture depends on shared values—align values first, then hire for strengths.

  “When it comes to unity, the key is to be on the same page with your values.” – Christine (43:51)

• Use behavioral interviewing and reference checks to probe true values beyond surface-level statements.

  “You would check… what are your values? What matters to you? And, and how has that shown in actions that you’ve actually taken in the past, not what do you say you believe.” – Christine (47:15)

Data, Trends, and Unique Profiles

• Kolbe shares trends by job title/profession but insists there’s no single ideal type for any role; best fit depends on specific context and culture.

  “We just released a whole research document for our 50th anniversary that looks at trends by job title.” – Christine (57:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Kolbe difference:

“None of [the other assessments] look at the instinctive ways that you actually get things done… Kolbe is looking at what do you naturally do really well.”
— Christine (02:36)

On burnout and finding fulfillment:

“At Colbe, our specialty is helping people do things more naturally, how to set yourself up for success and do things in a way that fits you so that you are not stressed out…”
— Christine (38:15)

On aligning roles and strengths:

“Just because someone’s Kolbe B Index doesn’t match their job doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be there… but chronic misalignment causes burnout.”
— Christine (61:14)

On Kolbe scores in families and their origins:

“It is not genetic… we did studies with identical twins… less than 20% had similar or same MOs.”
— Christine (64:29)

On the impact of understanding children’s Kolbe scores:

“If I had only known what his Kolbe result was when he was younger and been able to set things up for him in a different way, then he wouldn’t have had to go through that kind of experience.”
— Christine (15:14)

On superpowers and differences:

“Every single part of your Kolbe result is a superpower, a strength, something that is amazing about you, that you bring to every table you come to, if you care.”
— Christine (52:22)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kolbe vs. Other Assessments / Three Parts of the Mind – 01:46–04:00
• How Kolbe Training Changed Tyson’s Firm – 04:08–05:45
• Test Reliability and Transition Phases – 06:18–09:30
• Christine’s Recruitment Story and Personal Kolbe Experience – 09:30–13:21
• Kolbe and Parenting; Youth Assessments – 14:57–19:21
• Explaining the Four Kolbe Action Modes – 19:48–26:40
• How Kolbe Profiles Play Out Under Stress – 27:02–27:41
• Role Alignment, Adaptation, and Case Study (Bathroom Remodel) – 31:10–33:43
• About “Do More More Naturally” Book – 34:11–39:29
• Organizational & Law Firm Culture/Values – 43:39–46:34
• Kolbe C and B Indexes in Hiring and Role Fit – 58:29–64:09
• Research: Trends by Role & Notable Kolbe Scores – 54:04–58:07
• Family Businesses and Succession Planning – 63:27–64:09
• Nature of Kolbe Scores (Not Hereditary, Born With It) – 64:24–66:21
• Trauma, Change, and Kolbe Consistency – 67:02–68:55
• Misconceptions About Kolbe – 70:46–70:59
• How to Connect with Kolbe/Christine – 69:35–69:53
• Look Ahead: What’s Next for Kolbe – 70:02–70:40

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Final Thoughts

This episode goes far beyond typical discussions of work styles, unpacking the Kolbe system as a nuanced, research-backed way to help people and teams reach their highest potential—not by changing who they are, but by honoring their natural approach to action and problem-solving. Tyson and Christine’s engaging, candid conversations offer examples from law, parenting, relationships, and personal growth, making Kolbe’s insights accessible and actionable for law firm owners and anyone seeking more joy, fulfillment, and impact in their work and life.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

this is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. All right, Christine, I want to start with talking about Colby and how that assessment compares to all of the other. I don't know how many there are out there because we were just talking about Wonderlic and there's disc and all these other things like what is Colby and how's it different?

[C]

What a great start. So the three parts of the mind are the thing that people need to understand and this is not something we invented. The ancient philosophers, Plato, Aristotle, they figured this out thousands of years ago, that the way that our minds function have these three different main domains and that is how you think or the cognitive part of our mind, how you feel about things, or the affect, personality, if you will. And then this third part of the mind called the conative, which has to do with the instinctive will you have the way that you get things done. And so when you look at different assessments that are out there, they look at different parts of the mind, even though they're not telling you that. Some do, though. So cognitive tests, you'll have all these different kinds of tests like the bar or the ACT or the SAT or a spelling test. All these are doing is measuring knowledge and understanding about something. You can learn anything, you can get an education. It's all in that cognitive Part of our mind, the second part of our mind that is more of our personality has to do with why you're doing things, what's motivating you, what kind of social style do you have, how are people interacting with you? And there's a lot of personality tests out there that measure this part of the mind, what you like, what you want. Some of them are disc, Myers, Briggs. So those kinds Wonderlic, which you mentioned earlier, is a cognitive test. But none of them look at the instinctive ways that you actually get things done. They talk about different strengths you have. Maybe you're an extrovert or an introvert, but they don't actually get to the bottom of how you're going to get things done and what your best way of approaching problem solving, making decisions, and taking action are. And that's what Colby is looking at, is what do you naturally do really well and how do you approach it?

[B]

I love that. It's a great description, but I want to give people a little bit of context how I came to meet you, because I've talked about you on the show before, but for those people have not actually, like, heard those. I want to talk about that. So we. We contacted Colby, and we were like, hey, we want someone to come and do a training. You were the person that was. That did the training. You did an amazing job.

[C]

And thank you.

[B]

I sent a text to Beck right afterwards. I think it's like, we've got to try to get Christine on the show, because I thought it was really, really cool. It was great. Will you talk a little bit about what you did for us? Because I think it might be helpful for people that might be interested in doing the same thing. So we talked about that.

[C]

Absolutely, absolutely. So at Colby, we actually have a whole system for how to work with people. Okay. And so if you're working with anybody, you have to work with people. We're not all solopreneurs. Right. Somebody is working with us. And so we help with identifying each person's individual strengths and how they approach their work. We help with optimizing the way that they approach their work and how they work with others so that you can maximize collaboration. We help with alignment, where we align a person's strengths with their actual job and their tasks and the way they do their work. And we help with expanding or hiring anybody in your business. What we did for you was our first webinar series, which is called Identify. And we went through, and we broke it down, what the three parts of the mind were, and all of the different instinctive ways that people approach problem solving. And then we really looked in depth at your team and who. Who. Who on your team does things in what way and how that might complement somebody or it might be like a clone to somebody. And then how can you leverage your differences and. And manage conflict in a way that's helpful?

[B]

Yeah, it was really interesting. I. And it was very. It was entertaining, which was hard to do with the training. It was like. It was. You made it really engaging and entertaining. So I appreciate doing that. It was. It was really good. I did find it fascinating, like. So you and I had a conversation afterwards. We had a one on which I appreciate you doing as well. It was awesome where, like, we kind of, like, talked about my scores, and I want to talk about specifically how the. The URLs approach to your first assessment. And then if you were to take a subsequent assessment as to the accuracy of those, will you talk about that?

[C]

I sure will. So, yeah, you. You presented me with a unique challenge during the training. Oh, by the way, I've taken it twice. I didn't know that going in. So that was. That was really special, but it was

[B]

special is a way of putting it.

[C]

But it was also really good for the team to see.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Because we've done a lot of research. So Colby just celebrated our 50th year in business.

[B]

Nice.

[C]

Okay, thank you. And one of the things that we do periodically every five or ten years is what we call a test retest reliability study. Okay. We take people who took the Colby index decades ago, and then we have them take it again blind, and we compare. Is there a difference or not? And more than 90% of the time, right now, we're at over 25 years, I think almost 30 now that we've done our studies, more than 90% of the time,. The results don't change outside of a small margin of error. You took the colby index in 2020 and got the result 5, 3, 6. And then you took it again in 2023, and you had a much longer green line. And what we found out from our conversation is that when you took it in 2023, you weren't really being free to be yourself. And that's the key to taking the Colby index. And that's the reason that the person's first result is almost always solid and never needs to be addressed again, that you never need to take it again. And if they do, the results are going to be so similar, because when you are free to be yourself and you don't have Any preconceived ideas, and you take the. The. When you answer the questions in a way that you're free to be yourself, then we get the pure sense of how you naturally are going to get things done and be your very best self.

[B]

So you had mentioned, and I may use the wrong word, but sometimes what might lead to an error if someone is in, like, a transition phase.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Can you talk about that?

[C]

So sometimes about, you know, a little bit under 10% of the time, the first time a person takes the Colby Index, they're experience some transition or change in their life. And when they go to answer the questions on the assessment, they aren't free to be themselves. And it's not because they're not trying to be. It's because too many things are pulling them in different directions.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And so because they're being pulled in all these different directions, they can't accurately self report what is actually true about themselves at that time. This usually happens in times of great change in a person's life, like a new job or they lost a job or just graduated from college or high school or something like that. A change in your family, a new child, a new relationship, an elderly parent needs extra care. All of these things really kind of pull the rug out from underneath you for a short period of time and make it difficult to really get in the zone and figure out what your best way of getting things done is.

[B]

I'm very curious. You've been working. You've worked for Colby for 14 years. What drew you to Colby?

[C]

I was recruited.

[B]

Oh, okay, let's talk about that. What's your score, by the way?

[C]

So my colby Result is 6, 7, 7 2.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And that has a different.

[B]

We're similar in some things, but not in others.

[C]

But yeah, that's true.

[B]

Okay, Is that why you were recruited is because of your number, or was it other reasons?

[C]

So isn't that a great question? I'm just going to tell you the story briefly. I was recruited for Colby for a sales manager position that had opened up and I was looking, but I hadn't really gone looking. Right. So I'd updated my LinkedIn. And so a recruiter noticed, as they do, you know, and this was a long time ago, so weren't as prolific as they are now. But I was contacted by this recruiter, said, I have a job that I think would you would be a good fit for. And so you have to take this assessment, though.

[B]

Okay, pause for a second. You're told you gotta take this assessment as a. When you're applying to as a job candidate. What went through your head whenever they asked you to do that?

[C]

It didn't phase me at all.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[C]

So I. Here's a fun story that tells you a little bit about my way of getting things done. When I moved to Phoenix with my 15 year old son, I didn't have a job.

[B]

Wow. Okay.

[C]

But I knew that I could get one, even if it was just a sales job somewhere. And so the first two weeks I was here, I applied 80 places. I had 12 interviews and 10 offers.

[B]

Holy geez.

[C]

Okay. None of them were great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I took the one that I thought had the best potential and was working there, not making great money, single mom in IT and doing all of those things. And so after a year and I was working for a Google contractor, so it was actually a pretty good job with really great training.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

So after about a year though, I was like, this is not going to be a long term solution. And so that's when I had updated my resume, if you will.

[B]

Okay, so unpause. You took the assessment.

[C]

So I took the. So when I went to work for that contractor though, I had to take three assessments.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So it's like, you know which ones they were.

[C]

You remember? I don't know the names of them.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

There were HR assessments. Am I gonna lie? Can I spell? And can I use Excel? Basically,

[B]

I guess those are. Could be necessary for the job.

[C]

I guess you're right. Right. So now fast forward when they. It's when I took the Colby index and I got my result, I was able to see it and I read it. I was like, yeah, this is pretty right on. Kind of cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I didn't know who Colby was and I didn't know that they were the ones recruiting me either yet.

[B]

It was like a blind test. Yeah, it was just her blind job recruiting.

[C]

Yeah. She didn't want me to go around her to them directly. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So interesting. So she just gave me the assessment. And then a couple days later she called me and she said, hey, they are interested in meeting with you. And so I went in for an interview. And the interview was great, except that at the end, Amy Brusky, who was doing the interviewing, she looked at me, she said, I have to be really honest with you. We already filled the position.

[B]

Oh, no.

[C]

We just sent the offer letter this morning and he has accepted. So this position is actually not open anymore, but we are still interested in talking to you about something else. I was like, hmm, okay. Not quite sure. What that means, but I'm a 6, 7, 7, 2, and that means that I can not only improvise, actually do really well in situations where I need to. And so that's what I did, and so did they, and they called me back and ended up creating a kind of a hybrid position for me, and I've been there ever since.

[B]

That's incredible.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And I've worked in a lot of different areas at Colby and worn a lot of different hats.

[B]

Well, you. From talking to you like one on one, you ooze Colby. Like you. You eat, breathe, sleep, Colby, which is really. You moved to be close to their office, which is interesting. What is it about Colby that you love so much?

[C]

What I really, really love about it is it helps set people free, and it helps people improve their lives in ways that make a difference for the rest of their lives. And when you find this information out and you understand how to apply it, you can touch every aspect of your life in a way that reduces your stress, improves the amount of joy and fulfillment that you have, so that you can really be more, not just more productive, which is a great buzzword, but actually do the things that you care about and. And move the needle and reach the goals and the dreams and the callings and the aspirations that you have, you know?

[B]

Yeah. It's interesting you said what you said about freeing you, because I will say it's allowed me to give myself more grace on certain things. And I think that people that take it, they will. They might beat themselves up over certain things until they do understand themselves a little bit more. So I think that part's really true. Did you get any sort of release like that? I feel like I kind of got this, like, freeing feeling. Whenever you started to talk about it during the training, and then we talked afterwards. So did you. I wonder if you had that similar experience.

[C]

So it didn't really affect me that profoundly. It. It helped me to put words to something that I've always known about myself, and that is that I'm. I'm that person that gets stuff done. And everybody in my life and my family and my personal life, if they need to get something done or they need to figure out how to approach something, they call me. And that's kind of what my MO Will tell you about me. What it did, though, is I had my son assessed, and that was profound. My son at that time was 17 and had just dropped out of high school, and he was a smart kid, an elite athlete that had gotten injured, and I was Always like this with him. We were butting heads. We were not on the same page. It was very, very traumatic for both of us. And then I found out his Colby result, and his colby result was 4, 3, 5, 8. What that means is that he led with this hands on physical approach to everything. Everything was physical to him and hands on. And if it didn't work that way, it was not working for him. And he was a three in follow through, just like you. And what that means is that the way that he dealt with organization and structure was to resist it and to find his own path. And because of that, school was not a really friendly place for him. The classroom was not healthy for him, and he was getting kicked out of class for chewing gum and for doodling. But those are the two kinds of movements that helped him to focus and concentrate. And I didn't understand that and I didn't know how to parent him. And I felt like I had failed because he had dropped out of high school. And if I had only known what his Colby result was when he was younger and been able to set things up for him in a different way, then he wouldn't have had to go through that kind of experience. Now he's doing great now. He's a very successful general contractor, he has a family, he's doing really, really well. But he had to find his way the hard way.

[B]

What a perfect job for him too.

[C]

It is.

[B]

Okay, so I want to get into the different categories so people have an idea as to what we're talking about a little bit. But, but cause we're on the topic of children. I'd asked you a question during our one on one about like when's too early? Will you talk about like, is there a time where it's too early to take the assessment? So I'll just ask you that question. I know the answer. But like what? What's the answer?

[C]

Yes, there is a time that it's too early.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

The assessment requires you to be able to self report to answer questions about your best way of getting things done. And, and with children that's not as easy for them because they're constantly conforming and adjusting and being told the right way and the wrong way, which is a good thing. We have to teach them things. And so we have an assessment called the Colby Y Index that is designed for about a fourth, fifth grade reading level up to senior in high school. And we recommend that children with that ability can take the Colby Y Index. The questions are written in such a way that they will understand them in language that they will get, and it has to do with classrooms and schools and all of that. And then they get a simpler result than what adults do to help them to navigate and make decisions. There's a parent guide that goes with that.

[B]

Oh, excellent.

[C]

And the parent guide goes much more in depth to help not just parents, but any teacher or caregiver to be able to put that kid into the best possible situations for success or to understand why they might struggle with something, even though cognitively they are more than smart enough to do something and they're trying really hard, they are motivated to do it with their affective part of their mind. But conatively, it's just not the good fit for them.

[B]

I've always wondered, this is Colby Y, Colby youth and Colby a Colby adult, or is it something else?

[C]

No, I guess that makes sense. Colby A came first, and it used to be called the Colby Conative Index. Nobody knew what conative meant.

[B]

No.

[C]

So it was simplified. And at Colby, we have the A, the B, the C, the Y. We're very, you know, basic as far as our. Our naming convention. Because it sticks.

[B]

Yeah, I like it. All right, so let's talk about the categories for the Colby. Like, what are the categories? What do they mean?

[C]

So in the Colby Index, you have these four different instinctive behaviors that we talk about. Each one of them looks at a different way that we approach problem solving or making decisions. The first one looks at how do we deal with information. We all gather and share information, but we do this on scale or a continuum that ranges from people who are naturally going to need a lot of information and are very specific to people on the other end of that scale who are more of a generalist, and they tend to simplify information. And then there's people in that middle, in between those, that bridge both of those areas and get enough information that they can explain something to other people, but they move on from there. You and I both fall in that middle zone category. A lot of people in your firm are in that. Seven are in that very specific.

[B]

We have a lot of them. Yes.

[C]

Category where they need a lot of information and they give out a lot of information.

[B]

Yep. Okay, so what are the four? Again, so fact.

[C]

And then we call that one fact finder.

[B]

And then on the other end of the fact is what?

[C]

Simplify. So people who have a shorter red line or what, a 1, 2, or 3, in fact finder are people who naturally put things into a quick summary or bullet points. They can look at a lot of Complex data. And they just go, oh, this is the bottom line. And they do that instinctively. It's uncanny how quickly they can do that. It tends to make people with the longer red line uncomfortable because they're like, how could they possibly know that? They didn't read all this stuff. They don't know all the details. And people who have that 1, 2, or 3 just don't instinctively need that.

[B]

You brought a visual aid. Will you show that?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

When you're talking about the red line.

[C]

Okay, so this is Tyson's result. He's a 5, in fact, finder, and I'm a 6. So in that right in the middle between a 1 and a 10. And so there's both ends of the spectrum on that.

[B]

Yeah. What was interesting is you had talked about how, like, in the extremes, those might mean certain things versus. And I don't know intelligently how to explain it the way you did, but how, like, in the extremes, it means, like, certain things versus when you're not in the extremes. We talk about that a little bit.

[C]

I will. And I did bring that chart.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[C]

I don't know if you want me to show it or not.

[B]

Oh, that'd be. I'm fine with that. Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

If this will work or not. Used to having slides and a computer. No, not that.

[B]

And we can absolutely put it on the screen.

[C]

Okay, so this is. This is it. And so there's 12 different Colby strengths. And so each one of these extremes, in fact, finder, you either specify or you explain or you simplify information.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

And so in Follow through, that's the blue one. The. The. It ranges from people who are very structured and always have a plan in place to people on the other end of that scale who are much more flexible and adaptable with how they deal with structure and patterns and plans. And then there's people in the middle who take the structure and they maintain it, and they keep it moving forward in a way that is productive. So people like Tyson are in that 1, 2, or 3 area in follow through, and they streamline through the processes. They make sure that they maybe take shortcuts.

[B]

Never. I would never take a shortcut.

[C]

You know, one, two, skip a few, nine, ten, all.

[B]

That's right. Exactly right.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Well, like 9900, but that's.

[C]

Yeah, okay, 9900. I've heard that, too. But I was, you know, trying to be nice.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

You know, and. And you don't thrive with a checklist, but you'll recognize when a checklist is

[B]

necessary, which is funny because we operate on a lot of checklists in our firm, which is. I don't. You're right. I don't like following checklists. You're absolutely right. That's, that's, that's 100% right. And then there's Quick Start. You have Quick Start as well.

[C]

Yeah. Quick Start is the green one. And it's how we instinctively deal with risk and uncertainty. And we all have to deal with risk and uncertainty. We live in a world that's constantly changing, but we do this. That ranges from people who are naturally going to drive change. They are innovators. They are always looking for the next best challenge or the newest way to approach something. They have lots and lots of ideas all the time.

[B]

And then the last one is one. I think it's maybe the most. It was least understood by me. I understood it in a completely different way. We talk about that because it's like the physical environment Implementer. Because Implementer is. And I guarantee from talking to other people, they thought about things the way I did. When it comes to Implementer, we thought about them as like, okay, this is like, you're the one that implements things. And it's not that at all.

[C]

No, no, it isn't. And. And we, we recognize that. It's just that we're so entrenched in our brand now that it's Implementer.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We just spell it with an or. We're not talking about the verb to implement, like implementing a software system or a plan or some kind of production. We're actually talking about how an individual uses implements and tools with their hands physically in the environment. The things they can touch, the things they can move, the things they can control tactically. And so the instinct to do that has to do with how you deal with space, physical space and tangible items. And it ranges from people who naturally are very hands on and think in terms of literal concrete building materials. They think in three dimensions.

[B]

So for people that are trying to connect the dots, because I said something about why General Contractor makes a lot of sense for your son.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That's why. Because he is someone that's working with his hands a lot now and that, that's why it makes a bunch of. A lot of sense.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

I had asked you about like, does it work the same way with like softwares and things like that? Like if you're building softwares, will you talk about that a little bit?

[C]

Yeah. So not exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So the other side of that scale in Implementer has to do with what is conceptual and what, what is imagined and the things that are abstract and a lot of things that have to do with software and building code and, and things like that. Even though we use the word building, it's really much more conceptual and abstract what we're doing. It's more like math than swinging a hammer. Right. And so it's just not quite the same thing. However, there is some three dimensional software design and CAD design and video game design that can start to maybe draw on a different kind of strength in that implementer mode.

[B]

Yeah. All right, so I want to shift gears a little bit. Just a little bit. And I don't know if this is something I picked up from you or where I got it, but is it fair to say that if you're under intense stress or an intense situation, you sort of default to your baseline scores? Is that a fair assessment?

[C]

That's an interesting way to put it.

[B]

Okay, so I'm glad you put me straight here. So.

[C]

No, no, I'm not actually putting you straight though. So you're pretty much right. When, when you are put under pressure, your instincts kick in because they are what's first. You aren't going to think about what do I need to do here. You're not going to be figuring out am I motivated to do this, Do I like this, do I prefer this? No, you have to act right now. That's when your instincts will kick in and these kinds of striving instincts will. You'll make a quick decision because a decision has to be made or you'll take an action because an action must be taken rather than maybe freeze.

[B]

Got it. Okay. When it comes to the scores.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

You, if you know your score, you can sort of adjust your environment I guess a little bit or you can adapt to it as the things you should do and shouldn't do. If you know someone else's scores, you can sort of adjust how you deal with that person. How. What's your advice to people where like for example attorneys, we're dealing with the court systems that may not give a care if you are 5, 3, 6, 6, you know, like they, they may not care if you are. Let's say your fact finder is really low, you're, you're, or really high, you're really high, fact find or whatever where you don't really, we're not going to give you more time. So what is your advice to like people like in, in dealing in a rigid world when it comes to their scores?

[C]

Well, the world doesn't revolve around us does it?

[B]

Not at all.

[C]

No. And so just because you know what your. Your Colby result is, your mo, Your best way of getting things done, doesn't mean that anybody else cares. You have to become your own best advocate, and you have to set yourself up for success. So I'll pick on you since you're the one here, right?

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

This is your podcast. So you're three and follow through must have been a lot of fun in law school.

[B]

Okay, that was a ton of fun.

[C]

Okay. That. That three and follow through has this wonderful strength to be able to streamline through things, find the shortcuts. Like you were saying, 1, 2, 9, 10, 100. Right. And then your. Your professors probably didn't like that very much.

[B]

Well, you know, I will tell you, I'll say this. I've been kind of, like, jokingly picking on myself, too, but I will. I've actually thought of it as a superpower.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I feel like I can simplify things very easily. So I'll see this jumbled mess of stuff, and I don't like to mess around with the whole jumbled mess. I'm not going to read through the whole jumbled mess. I'm just going to look at the things that are important in the jumbled mess and pick them out. So I actually saw it as a superpower in law school because I could easily see this. I really struggle with seeing. Okay, I've got 35 pages of this one case to read. I'm going to get to the freaking heart of what the. What it is. And so I. I would use, like, horn books to, like. Okay. To kind of figure, like, just to digest it down. So that's. I did kind of go from, you know, the whole 9, 9, 100. And so I did take some shortcuts, but I. To me, it was like, I'm just gonna. I'm cutting out all the nonsense is what I'm doing. So that's the way I looked at it.

[C]

Well, a lot of that is your fact finder number, by the way.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Because it's how you were gathering and sharing information. It was all about, you know, I was the same way in college, so I totally get that, because I'm also in that middle zone, and I do not need all that detail. You cut through it, you find the essential facts enough to understand it enough to answer questions. What I was talking about with that three and follow through is all about turning everything in on time, making sure that you had all of your papers in the right order.

[B]

I didn't have problems with that.

[C]

The organization. Okay, well see, that's fantastic. There are a lot of people with that 1, 2 or 3 and follow through. My son, for example, they did their homework. They didn't always turn it in. Okay. Because it was done. It was done in their mind. So they were on to the next thing. And the actual finishing the loop piece of it, of turning it in was the thing that might fall through the cracks.

[B]

That's my son to a T where he'll do his homework and put it in his backpack and never turn it in. We're like, dude, all you had to do is turn it in. That's all you had to do.

[C]

It's.

[B]

But we did talk about like some projects like at home and stuff. I would have like not like a bunch of unfinished projects.

[C]

And yes.

[B]

So that, that is something that. At least with the firm. We talked about this too where like we. I've surrounded myself with a bunch of people that help close the loop. They do a really good job all kind of to get this thing started and then they'll kind of take it to the finish line, which is. That's something I. Without even knowing it. That's something I've had to do. I've just had to kind of figure that part out.

[C]

Exactly. And I know that you've been working on that bathroom for a while.

[B]

It's done. No, we got, we got that thing done and it was funny. Funny you say that because we. Amy and I started it after. We have a couple friends that came over for the Super Bowl. They paid a contractor to start on theirs. They started before us. We started after. We got ours done before the contractor and we did way more work. So I'm actually pretty happy with our progress. We got it all done. It's. I wouldn't say it's way nicer. I think it's nicer, but it's. We did way more work. We put in the heated floors, we put in a heated towel, racks, tiled, everything. It was a lot of work. But I was pretty happy with that. But part of that's probably because of Amy is I. I can't remember what her score is, but it's probably.

[C]

She's a 447.

[B]

447. Your memory is fantastic.

[C]

I did my homework well.

[B]

So then I guess that doesn't explain it then with the. Because she's a low follow through too as well.

[C]

But she drove urgency though. Yes, she did her seven and quick start. Needed to get it done now.

[B]

And not having our bathroom, that. That was real Pain in the butt.

[C]

Then there's that.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It really drove us to get that done.

[C]

You want to know what's really interesting about that is she's a four and implementer and you're a six.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And that strength is all about remodeling and restoring and doing it with high quality. You mentioned needing the right tools.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Using, you know, not just any floor, but a heated floor, heated towel racks. Let's do this. Let's use the best thing we can do that's a hundred percent. That. That longer yellow line was really in play there.

[B]

Well, we're talking about the fact finding. That part was the struggle, like, finding the right pieces forever, like, was. We wanted everything to be just right. So I can't. I spent so much time researching things, and I. I know I'm not a super high fact finder, but it was still, like, we did a ton of freaking research on it. It was. So that part, like, understanding that part of me is kind of interesting, too.

[C]

Well, so this is where the other two parts of the mind come in.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[C]

You really cared about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You were motivated. You wanted it to be the best it could be.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

And that's why you. You went against your natural way of doing things and did all that extra research.

[B]

All right, so I want to shift gears again, and let's talk about the book. So you gave me this book. You were very nice to give me an autograph book by David Colby and Amy Brusky, and. Which is freaking awesome. Very excited about this. Tell me about this book. You said it's Do More More Naturally, and this is going to segue to you in a venture in a second. So that's why I'm asking you about this. Tell me about the book.

[C]

So Do More More Naturally is a book that has been in its infancy for years. And we finally got it done a year and a half ago, two years ago, because we are tired of hearing from people. If I'd only known this before, if I had only known this about myself, if I'd only known this about my child, I would have made completely different choices. I would have gotten a different major. I would have gotten. Pursued a different career. I wouldn't have had that divorce. I wouldn't have had this terrible thing happen, you know, I wouldn't have had that heart attack. All of these terrible things that people tell us, and it just broke our hearts. It was like, how do we tell people? And everywhere you go in our world, there are books and gurus who are telling you to get more done. To get more done. Do this and do that, and you have to eat this way, and you have to follow this regimen, and you have to do it this way and use this management system to get more done. More, more, more, more. And all that does is burn people out. It sounds exhausting.

[B]

Well, I mean, it is exhausting, especially with, like, social media and, like, everyone comparing themselves to each other. You just said something that I've not thought about. You're talking about, like, the divorce part of it.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Is there a test for spouses by chance?

[C]

So we have a report. So everybody takes a Colby A Index. There's not a separate test for. For spouses to take. Okay, so the Colby A Index. And. And we have a report called Takes Two.

[B]

Okay, gotcha.

[C]

We'll take two people's Colby results who are in a committed, romantic relationship and talk to you about how can you improve the way you communicate with each other, how can you deal with financial decisions together in a way that honors the other person, but also yourself?

[B]

See, I'm not sure I knew about this. That's really surprise. It's really interesting. I didn't know that. This is awesome, because I can see. I think it'd be a massive advantage to couples. I think it probably could lead to less divorces. That is really interesting. So the. Let's take my scores with Amy scores. So you would just say, okay, side by side. And you. You specifically said romantic. So this is made for couples.

[C]

For couples.

[B]

And so you would kind of give you, like, a. Like, how to kind of deal with each other, I guess, on certain, like, big things. What a brilliant idea.

[C]

Well, thanks. You know, it's. It's certainly. Kathy and David came up with this years ago, and we've revamped it to be a lot more modern.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

But it's. It's really helpful for couples to get that understanding. Your spouse is not doing that to drive you crazy. Your spouse is doing that because that's how they get things done. And even though you've told them over and over you don't like it, that's their way they get things done. And so a lot of times we take things personally, and they're not personal.

[B]

Tell me this. Can you use this to find the right mate?

[C]

Not at this time.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

It would be. It would be something maybe down the road someday we'll. We'll partner with some kind of matchmaking service, but we aren't there yet.

[B]

Interesting, because that could be really fascinating for anyone looking for a Spouse. I'm good. I don't need. I don't need that. Okay. So I asked you about this book.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I didn't care much. Well, honestly, I didn't want to ask you about the book. The. Really, what I want to ask you about is you're an author yourself. That's. I only ask you this question because I want to talk about you, and

[C]

you let me finish telling you about doing more naturally. Okay?

[B]

Okay. Keep going.

[C]

Because I only said half of it.

[B]

It's part of the job. Okay. No. Okay. So just know that it's coming.

[C]

I'm ready. I'm ready. So doing more is something that we're all told we need to do.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Okay. And the biggest problem in the workplace today, I think there's, like, a 65, 70% burnout rate. And this is published by Harvard.

[B]

Yeah. That's. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Not surprised by that.

[C]

It's astounding.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that burnout is a real psychological condition that has physiological symptoms. All right. It's a problem. And at Colby, our specialty is helping people do things more naturally, how to set yourself up for success and do things in a way that fits you so that you are not stressed out and so that you're able to do your best work and find this sweet spot where you're in this zone in the flow state, if you will, and things are clicking for you and everything is working. Getting things done feels effortless, but that can be taken too far, too, because then you can have somebody who set themselves up and they have enough people doing all the work around them that they just do what comes natural, and they aren't productive anymore, and they're not reaching any goals, and they're not doing anything fulfilling. They're just kicking back. That's not helpful either. The key is finding that sweet spot in the middle where you're able to get more done of the things that matter to you, but do it in a way that is more natural for you. And that's where this book comes in, is all about how to take your Colby result and leverage it to help you get more done that actually matters.

[B]

So what I find interesting about what you just said is I think we all try to design our worlds so that things do become sort of effortless and that we can kind of kick back and things will be on autopilot. But what you're saying is we probably shouldn't do that. There should be a little bit more fresh friction introduced into our lives.

[C]

Well, is it fulfilling to be on autopilot?

[B]

No. And I get it completely. But I think that that's. We are designing for. For being unfulfilled. That's. That's what I find interesting about this, is that we are intentionally designing for. For something that will ultimately lead to our unfulfillment.

[C]

Some people are. But then there are people who think that if they're not working hard, they're not worth anything.

[B]

Yeah, they.

[C]

They attach their self worth to the things that they're doing rather than who they are.

[B]

I think I'm probably guilty of that. Where, like, I, I take pride in some of, like, in the pain. That's what I'll probably call. I kind of take pride in that and that, like, working hard. I think that that is like an essential part of, like, success and all that. Do I take. Am I taking that too far? Is that. Should I. Should I back.

[C]

I don't know. Are you?

[B]

No comment. No comment. That's interesting. I have to rethink that because I. I think I probably do. I probably do. I'm not a big fan of like, the whole hustle culture kind of a thing, but I'm also. I'm not naive to think that like, like there is hard work that's required. And too often, I think these days you see people on social media talking about, oh, make, you know, six figures, working three hours a day kind of a thing. And that's. I think that's overblown. And they make it seem like, oh, you can do this without any, Any hard work at all. Yeah, that's where I kind of come from. It's like, no, that's nonsense like that. That's.

[C]

I agree.

[B]

Selling, like. Okay, if you believe that. What. I've got some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona. Is that so that's where. That's where my kind of mindset is. But. All right. I'm itching to ask you about the other. Are you done talking about this? Okay. And so. And we can come back to this, but I do want to ask you about your books because you're an author.

[C]

I am.

[B]

Which that was something that I learned at the very end of our meeting. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And I did. I did a little Google search and I found your books and everything. So tell people. Tell the people about your books. How did you. How did you get in first? Like, how did you get into becoming an author?

[C]

So I am very passionate about everything that I do. If, If I do it, then I'm not going to do it in a halfway Manner. And I've been in ministry my whole life, so I'm a person that has a very deep love for God and for Jesus Christ. And so I have dedicated a big part of my life to ministry. And I actually was in professional ministry, working for different churches for the first half of my career. All right. So that's a piece of who I am and what really makes me tick.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That actually connects to Colby. So we can talk about that.

[B]

Well, that's. I kind of figured we'd go kind of full circle.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. And so about 20 years ago, I really had in my spirit to write a book about church unity. I have worked for, like, four different denominations.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

I know. So I have seen the different sides of different belief systems, and I saw basically at the core of them, they were all the same.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And I saw what unified them is

[B]

not where I thought you were headed with that, so. Okay, Okay.

[C]

I saw. I saw what unified them. And. And the reasons behind the things that they did. And. And I also knew all of their differences very intimately because I worked there. And so what I realized is that the heart of it was really what was the same. And I wrote a book about that called One Spirit, One Church, and it was based on a prayer that Jesus prayed right before he died that we would all be one, as he and the Father were one.

[B]

Very interesting.

[C]

And so I'm very passionate about working to help people in the church to treat each other with respect and love and dignity, no matter what their denominational background is.

[B]

Do you think you could take a book like that and kind of overlay it on any sort of organization, whether it be a business or non, to kind of apply the same principles?

[C]

Yes, absolutely. Because when it comes to unity, the key is to be on the same page with your values. And if you're in part of an organization and you agree on the values, then you can overcome the other differences with that agreement. If there is a disagreement on values, that is something that I. That you can't always overcome.

[B]

Okay. And you're using the word unity now. I think you could also maybe use the word culture.

[C]

Yes, indeed.

[B]

For this. Like, so you can talk about firm culture, company culture. So it really comes down to those. Those founding principles of those founding values.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. And talk about law firms. You know, the law firms on tv. All right. All right. And that's my experience with law firms, because I've never worked for one.

[B]

There's a lot of them around here that are advertising.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Billboards all over the place.

[C]

Right. So I might not be a lawyer, but I played one on TV kind of thing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So you see different firms represented with this really cutthroat kind of dog eat dog kind of culture where you have attorneys trying to make partner and do all these different things. You know, that kind of culture is really toxic. And it exists, it exists in all kinds of different. Not just law firms, but all kinds of different companies. And then you'll have other people or other companies and firms who have a culture of. No, we are a family and we help each other and we care about each other and finding that sweet spot where we're still moving forward, we're producing, we're helping our clients aggressively, but we're doing so in a way that builds each other up. That would be a unified kind of culture.

[B]

Okay, so what matters more? The particular values that the organization has or the fact that everyone is on the same page when it comes to

[C]

the values matters for what?

[B]

For culture, for having like a. To have unity, I guess would be the.

[C]

That you would be all on the same page, but you could be on the same page for evil or on the same page for good.

[B]

Right. And so it's coming up with, I would assume, if you're coming up, if your values are based upon doing good and then you. The next challenge then would be, okay, getting all of the same people on the same page. When you're recruiting people, are you, are you recruiting people that have the same values already? Or when you, when you bring people in, are you trying to get them to shift to adopting those same values? Hopefully that question makes sense.

[C]

Yes. And.

[B]

Okay, say more.

[C]

So you were always going to look for people who are going to be aligned values wise. This goes back to one of the questions you asked earlier. The reason that when I started working for the Google contractor, that I had to take a test on whether or not I would lie. Okay. Because they had this value at that time of do no harm.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. And so they didn't want anybody that would lie to a client or to a coworker. Right. Okay. And so if we have a culture that's don't lie, then you would want to try to find somebody who didn't lie. And so you would check. Did they lie on their resume?

[B]

Sure.

[C]

You know, you would check. You would ask them questions about how they handled situations where they were asked to lie by a superior.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

I was asked that question when I was hired at Colby.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so you would be put on the spot to ask questions to get you Know what. What are your values? What matters to you? And, and how have. How has that shown in actions that you've actually taken in the past? Not what do you say you believe, but what have you actually done?

[B]

Okay, so something I will say we. I wouldn't say we struggled with it, but something that I've. I've had it, I guess an issue with is that the. Let's use the lying example. Okay. I can ask you if you're gonna lie, Right.

[C]

And I can say, of course not.

[B]

Right. So how do you design questions that can get to the actual heart of the. What you're trying to figure out without telling them, without forecasting it?

[C]

We actually have published some of this.

[B]

Okay, I didn't know this, so it's funny.

[C]

Surprise.

[B]

This is great. Okay.

[C]

We have a whole hiring system, remember?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So we. We have some different interview questions that we've published. And so some of the questions, I. I can't tell you verbatim what they are, but one of the ways that you would get to that is you would say, so think about a scenario in your past when you've worked for somebody and there was an inspector coming or something was going to happen, and your boss said, oh, my gosh, this is going to happen. If, if, if you tell them this, then we're going to be in big, big trouble. Maybe with the government, maybe with a client, maybe with somebody else. And so I need you to just tell them this. How have you handled a situation? Tell me about a situation like that. And how did you handle it?

[B]

Okay, let's use that example, because we have questions like that, similar, and sometimes they'll say, well, that's never really come up before. I don't. I don't really. I've never really had that situation come up before. How do you deal with something like that?

[C]

What would you do if I asked you to do XYZ and I?

[B]

Well, to me, like, that's gonna be an obvious answer. I wouldn't do it.

[C]

Oh, would it, though? So you can say, hey, so you're interviewing for the sales manager position. And we had this one client who we couldn't lose because it's like one of our benchmark clients and we're going to fix something, but we're not gonna fix it until, like, next month. All right? And they need it done today. I need you to go to that client and say, we are working really hard to get this done for you by tomorrow.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

That's a lie.

[B]

That is a lie. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. What are you Gonna say interesting.

[B]

So that's. And so they're having to make. They're at the making on the spot. Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. I like that. That's really good.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So you have to make sure that essentially you have to have the backup question holstered in a situation where they couldn't answer the first question. So you have to have that backup question ready to go. Okay, I like that. I'm gonna steal that one. That's a really good. That's a really good one. Okay. You kind of blew my mind a little bit with that one because I. I didn't know that you all had. Had those. Those questions. Are those for sale or.

[C]

They are for sale.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

They are not free. They're not available online either.

[B]

So you can't go find them. Which you. I want to get into this a little bit too, because Colby has done a very good job of protecting its. Its trademark and then also a lot of its ip, which I think is really smart. Which is. I think it's. You probably have really good legal counsels, probably the reason why.

[C]

But David Colby's a lawyer.

[B]

Well, I did not know that. I did not know that. But I think that's part of the reason why you can't find a lot of the stuff online. Right. Like, which is. Which is good. You've protected your ip.

[C]

We have.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's interesting thing to deal with, with like, chat GPT and all that, because now ChatGPT doesn't really understand conation either.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

So we're working on that.

[B]

In a world where, like, everything can basically be found through Chad GPT, I think it's. I actually love this that you can't actually get this information because it's like you've. You will have worked hard to build it, to create it, to refine it, and then to have, like, some AI steal it would be just terrible.

[C]

We want AI to understand it, but it hasn't gotten the differences and the nuances between the three parts of the mind yet. And that's the issue, because if I told you that it was bad, that you weren't organized and you didn't do things in this way, because successful people do that. And so therefore, you can't be successful, which, by the way, I can do right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because they don't understand the difference between a three and follow through and a seven and follow through.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so we haven't protected our IP to keep it away from people. We've protected it to keep it correct

[B]

and pure, which I think is Important. I think it's really, really good. Are there. Is there anything. Is there such thing as, like, a bad score, Colby score? No.

[C]

What a great question. So every single part of your Colby result is a superpower, a strength, something that is amazing about you, that you bring to every table you come to, if you care. And so when you are able to operate that way, then anybody that you're collaborating with is going to benefit from you understanding your strengths. For example, we keep talking about your three. Three in follow through.

[B]

Good. Pick it on me.

[C]

Okay. No, but this is what make. You said you look at it as a superpower because you're able to cut through bureaucracy, you know, and you're dealing with the law. That is bureaucracy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. All of the different ins and outs, and you're like, let's just cut through that and get to the bottom line and find. Find the place where we can really be able to be successful. And you help your law firm do that, and you're now helping other law firms to do that. So that has become a superpower for you.

[B]

Yeah, I have. I have found that it can be a little bit like Carrie brought it up during our training session about how, like, sometimes whenever I would explain things, I would, like, give it way too simple of instructions, and sometimes I need to give a lot more detail because I look at it. This makes sense. You know, just give me the bullet points. This all makes sense. Whenever. Some people need a lot more context than what I give. So I. I've got a. I do know. I know that about myself now, where, like, I could. I've got to make sure I'm giving more context to things so that, like, me understanding it is the superpower now. Now I've got to know how other people are going to interpret it, and they've got to get a little bit more context, which is. Which is pretty important.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What's the wildest score you've ever seen? Like, does anyone ever come up, like, all ones or all nines?

[C]

It's not possible.

[B]

Okay. Because I. I was like, how. Like, how does all that work? The interplay?

[C]

So I know 7771. I'm a 6, 7, 7, 2. Which is very similar. Similar to that. Yeah, I know. A 3, 2, 10, 2.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

Dan Sullivan.

[B]

Oh, Dan Sullivan's a. Dan is a 10 in.

[C]

Quick start.

[B]

Yeah. I'm not surprised by that. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. What is. What is. David Colby.

[C]

David Colby's an 8. 2, 7, 3.

[B]

8, 2, 7 3. So he's. He's A, he's on the. The quick starts. So he's a high fact finder.

[C]

An Aiden factfinder, and a quick start and a seven. A quick start. Yeah.

[B]

That's interesting. Doesn't. Don't those. And maybe. Maybe I'm way wrong about this. I thought usually if you're at a quick start, you're. You're high. In a quick start, you're gonna be lower. On a fact finder.

[C]

No, they're not. They're not related to each other.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Yeah. So fact finder is all about information, quick starts, all about risk and uncertainty and. And like I'm a seven in quick start and a seven and follow through. People. I've had people say that to me. How can you. That's not possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And the thing is, is that because I'm a 6, 7, 7 2, I have lots of ideas. I come up with all these different ways that I could approach something, or, oh, let's try this or let's try that. But immediately my 7 and follow through creates a plan for how to make that happen. And my six, in fact, finder gets enough information that I can do it. And that's why I have published three

[B]

books that completely makes sense.

[C]

I had the idea, I got enough information, I implemented a plan and I published it.

[B]

To me, that means I would want, like a marketer to be like the same where those numbers are the follow through and the ideas are both high. Or does that. Would that make sense, you think?

[C]

Maybe. Depends on the kind of marketing that person needs to do.

[B]

Yeah. Have you all tracked what most authors are? It makes me wonder if they're the.

[C]

No, we have not. And I think it's going to be all over the map because it's going to. It's going to be, what are they writing about? Are they writing fiction or nonfiction? Are they. Is it more fantasy or is it more historical? All of these different pieces that come into different authors. In the old days.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. An author didn't actually have to do a lot of the work for the publishing piece because a publisher did that for them. All they had to do is write it. That's not really true these days. And so it just depends on what kind of book and what the context is. For me, I wrote my books and I published through a firm, and I did a lot of the work myself because I could, and so I did.

[B]

It makes me wonder, have you all ever published anything by profession, what the scores are on average?

[C]

We have published some trends.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

In one of Kathy's books Called Pure Instinct. She did a lot of that kind of research. We had been working with a lot of different tech firms. SAP, Honeywell, Intel, Alaska Airlines. And so we were able to really do some really good work with research. And we had enough of a sample size to really do some things, and so we published some things. And we just released a whole research document for our 50th anniversary that looks at trends by job title.

[B]

Interesting. Okay, I'll have to check that out. Anything, any glaring trend that kind of surprised you?

[C]

Not that surprised me. They might surprise others.

[B]

Yeah. What, what do you think might surprise me or some other people? You think I don't put you on the spot?

[C]

I don't know you well enough to know it would surprise you. Yeah, I guess with different kinds of lawyers, we do see some different trends. So it just depends on like, what field of law you might be going into. But most lawyers have a long red line. Most, most people who make it through law school have a longer fact finder. Same with medicine. But there's a lot of doctors who don't. There's a lot of lawyers who don't.

[B]

Yeah. I like how you, like, you talk about like the long red line, like you, like you met like, things like that. I think it does make it easier to understand. Or like a short blue line, like, like the green line. So it's red, blue, green, yellow. Is that right? Okay. Are there certain scores that might. Might make for better positions? I know you said there's no such thing as a good score.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

Okay, so like, so our case managers are like paralegals. Okay. So a lot of our case managers are actually paralegals. So is there a certain score that might make sense for that position itself?

[C]

Yes. And so our hiring profiles work in such a way that you're able to identify actually pretty specifically what you need for that role using what we call the Colby C Index. The Colby C Index looks at, from a supervisor's point of view, what does success look like in this role? If I had the very best case manager in the world, what are they going to do the most in the least? And then we're able to create a profile to hire to that is EEOC compliant. All right. And this profile will identify a range of numbers that is most likely to be successful in your firm for that role. And I want to make sure you got, you got that. Because what might be most successful in your firm for that role might not be the same for one of the other lawyers down the street.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it might be A different kind of law. Maybe that lawyer is a person that requires everybody to be super detailed. Or maybe that lawyer is somebody who requires less detail. I don't know.

[B]

Well, not even like different practice area. Like the way they operate their business could be completely different.

[C]

And there it is.

[B]

It could be like, one could be like really automated. One may not be very automated.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

So it, you may run your injury practice completely different from our injury practice. Yes. One may be very litigation heavy. One may not be. So that, I mean, it makes complete sense. So is that, who fills that out is the, the employer fills out the, the Colby.

[C]

See, we usually have the direct supervisor and anybody else who might be what we call an evaluator for that role. So, for example, in your office, you know, you have Amy and I think it's Kristen that does most of the HR piece of everything.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[C]

All right, so what you would do is you would have both Amy and Kristin fill out a colvc for that role. You might even want to fill out the Colby C for that role. But you would have Amy probably or Kristen be what we would call the direct supervisor. And then we would look at those and we would create that range of success for that particular role.

[B]

Excellent. All right. And then have we talked, have we talked about Colby B yet?

[C]

No.

[B]

What is Colby B?

[C]

So the Colby B is all about role alignment. So in our session that we did for you, we did this exercise where I had everybody print their name and then I had them take the pen or pencil and put it into their opposite hand, their non dominant hand, and print their name again. You remember that?

[B]

Yeah, I do. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. It's a really physical exercise that helps people to understand what it means to do something that isn't natural to you. And so what the Colby B index does is it helps to identify areas in your job that might be like that. And you answer questions about your perception and experience on your day to day work and the tasks that you perform to be successful in your own eyes about your own job. And we're able to look at a person's Colby A and Colby B index and diagnose those areas where maybe it's like they have to do tasks that are riding with their non dominant hand. Maybe it's a little bit, maybe it's a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then we can say, okay, there's some, some areas here that we can, we can help you with because just because somebody's Colby B index doesn't match their job doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there.

[B]

Can you give me an example of what that might look like?

[C]

Sure. So, you know, maybe we have somebody like you, Tyson, who is a 536 6, and we put you in the role of paralegal case manager.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Did you ever have to do that?

[B]

Nope.

[C]

Never had to pay those dues?

[B]

Nope. Okay. I mean, I mean, I've done.

[C]

I know firms that make. Make their attorneys pay the dues, but I'm not.

[B]

I mean, I've done every job in that firm, but I've not done it as like a case.

[C]

All right.

[B]

So if you're not working for me.

[C]

Yeah, right. Definitely not. Right. So. But if we. If you. If somebody was wooed by your amazing personality and hired you for that job and you were crazy enough to apply for it.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Okay. It would be a terrible fit.

[B]

I'd be terrible.

[C]

Terrible fit.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yes. Because somebody like that has to methodically research and document things.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Lots of follow that.

[B]

Yeah. Lots of follow through with it.

[C]

Right. You can do that. But if you have to do that for a long period of time, it will be exhausting and you would burn out eventually completely. Okay. So knowing that up front, that sets you. You don't hire that person. You don't apply for that kind of job. Now, we see a lot of times in family businesses that this does happen.

[B]

Oh, okay. Say more about that.

[C]

Because in a family business, you've been raised to take over from. For a certain person or a certain role in a firm, whether it's a law firm or an accounting firm or a financial services firm or some kind of firm or a plumbing company, doesn't matter. You've been groomed and trained your whole life. You are expected to do this whether it fits you or not. And so you have somebody and they are not the right fit. At least not to do it the same way dad did. At least not to do it the same way that Uncle John did. But it doesn't mean that you can't approach it in a unique way if you still want to be the one who runs that company.

[B]

Okay, so I have a silly question. Maybe. I'm guessing that these scores are not hereditary. So you can't pass a score on. But are kids more likely to have the scores of their parents or less likely to have the scores of their parents?

[C]

Neither. So it is not genetic. It's not something you inherit.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And we did studies to prove that. Okay, Just FYI. And the study we did was with identical twins.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Because fun fact, Kathy's husband, Will is an Identical twin. And David Colby has identical twins. And our VP of technology has identical twins.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

[C]

Okay. Small company.

[B]

That's very.

[C]

Three sets of twins.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so there's this gathering every year in Twinsville where they. All these identical twins and fraternal twins come and have like this big convention.

[B]

I bet they've been so studied too,

[C]

by the way, and they are used to being studied. And so we did a study with identical twins that had identical twins. Take Colby indexes, and sure enough, I don't know the exact percentage, so I don't want to misspeak, but I'm going to guess that it was less than 20% had similar or same mos.

[B]

Amy's dad is a. Is an identical twin.

[C]

So there you. So it's not something that's genetic or these, these, you know, these identical twins have the same DNA. They did not have the same instinctive mos.

[B]

Well, are there any trends when it comes to kids and their, their parents, like, like one way or the other?

[C]

No.

[B]

All right. Are you born with these scores or is it something that is developed early on?

[C]

You are born with them, you don't develop them. They are instincts. So you're born with instincts. All, all the different kinds. You know, you have the, the different, different instincts that people have. Fight or flight, all of those. Right? Yeah, those, those are not something that you control. They aren't the same as these. These are striving instincts or the kinds of, you know, instinctive behaviors, problem solving instincts. And you can observe these with infants and toddlers. And that's why as soon as children are old enough to self report, we can assess them.

[B]

Well, and I know you were using the word instincts, but I didn't know if it was like, it was like kind of like implementer, where I was like, well, maybe this is, maybe this is just what they call it. And so you're, you're talking about literal instincts.

[C]

Literal instincts. So I'll use me as an example. I'm a 7 in follow through, which means that I am systematic and I always have a plan. And, and I can look back in some of the papers that I have from when I was in kindergarten, five, six years old, and I had checklists and outlines. Nobody had ever taught me what an outline was.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

Nobody had ever taught me any of those things. I think that way, and I always have.

[B]

Okay, I know that you. We talked about how if you take the test, like the school, like, the error rate is very low, and we talked about transitions. Is there anything like, could there be a serious change in a person's life that could alter their scores permanently?

[C]

We don't think so. We have seen that when there is a serious change in somebody's life, understanding their MO Is the key to helping them. So let's talk about Kathy Colby. Her first book, Conative Connection, was written right after she had a traumatic brain injury.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Okay. So she had developed the Colby theory, and she had started writing the book and started working on it. She was appearing on cnn. She was working with the heavy hitters. She was traveling internationally, speaking at. She was one of the first females to ever speak at mdrt. I mean, and that's quite a story all by itself that I'm not going to tell. But. But she was a real go getter, and this is in the 70s and 80s, and she was hit by a drunk driver and she had a very traumatic injury. Her pelvis was broken and she was in the hospital and she had to relearn to speak and to walk.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I didn't know this. And she had, like a genius iq, all right. But she wasn't able to function, but she knew what her instincts were and she used her instinctive strengths to overcome that and to do everything that she's done. There's a whole documentary about it. You should check it out. It's called the Last Part of the mind. It's on YouTube. And it's fascinating to see how she overcame that and wrote several of the books and ran Kobe Corp. For another 25, 30 years.

[B]

Wow. Okay, that's. What was the name of that YouTube the video again?

[C]

It's. It's a documentary. It's called the Last Part of the Mind.

[B]

The Last Part of the Mind. Okay. Does. And I, I'm guessing I know the answer to this, but I want to ask it. Does Colby Score have anything to do with intellect?

[C]

No.

[B]

No. Is there any, any sort of. Any consistencies or trends when it comes to intellect and the Colby Score?

[C]

No.

[B]

Wow. Okay, Very good. All right, let's start to wrap things.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

We're getting close to time, but I want to make sure people, if they want to reach out to you or if they're interested in Colby, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

[C]

They can just go to Colby.com and contact us super easy.

[B]

Okay, what about if they want to talk to you specifically? What's the best way they can.

[C]

They can ask for that on the contact Us form and they can call us. It's 602-840-9770 or just go to the website. Or just go to the website.

[B]

We can put both of those in the show.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Cool. I do wonder, because Colby's been doing this for a while, is there anything on the horizon when it comes to Colby that is something new that you could talk about?

[C]

Not that I can talk about.

[B]

Okay. But there are things coming and there's things coming.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. We are innovators, we are entrepreneurial. We are working hard to really spread our the knowledge of conation all over the world. We have some pretty lofty goals. We want to get to 10 million people this decade. And so we're really trying very hard to help people to learn more about Colby and to find out about themselves because we believe that it can change your life. We believe that it can improve your life. And, you know, the world needs that desperately.

[B]

Last question I have for you. What's the most misunderstood thing about Colby that you wish people knew?

[C]

That it's. They think it's a personality test and that it will change. You know, that it has to do with the things that you like or the circumstances that you took it. You answered the questions in and it's just not like that at all.

[B]

Christine, thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it. I really enjoyed it. Every time I've encountered you, it's been great. So I really appreciate it.

[C]

Well, thank you. It was a pleasure to be here and I look forward to getting to talk to you again in the future.

[B]

Absolutely.

[D]

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