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- [00:01]
A
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law this is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. Evelyn so I have a quote from you. It's immigration isn't just law. It's about people, purpose and opportunity. What does that mean?
- [01:40]
B
That means to me that immigration is about creating legacy. I love the work I do because I'm dealing with people and I have a goal to help them get to Canada or the United States to transform their lives, whether they are a business person or a family. And it really feeds my soul. It's a passion of mine to know that I'm creating a whole new generation of immigrants, businesses, professionals that get to create a legacy in a new country and launch their families.
- [02:11]
A
You said legacy twice, so why legacy? Why is that so important?
- [02:15]
B
I think everybody wants to leave this world having left something behind. Not just our children or our families, but a real sense of purpose. And I was here and I did something and I feel like with immigration, it allows for that transformation because you don't just move as a family. Then you have next generation and next generation and you create wealth or you create businesses. You make a difference in the new country that you've moved to. So. So I feel like most immigrants want that sense of legacy. They want to leave something behind that makes all of the sacrifices that they've made worthwhile. Leaving their home Leaving their family, leaving their home country.
- [02:58]
A
So for you, what sort of experiences have you gone through that have colored that viewpoint? Because you clearly believe that that's something I can tell. What experiences have you had that made you have that viewpoint?
- [03:11]
B
Well, I'm an immigrant. I was born in Ghana, West Africa, and we immigrated to Canada when I was five. And I never thought I'd be an immigration lawyer. I was a corporate lawyer. But it must have really stuck with me because my dad left when my mom was pregnant and went to Germany. Our immigrant story is he became a mechanic because it was the fastest thing he could do from a very poor village and a poor family. And then the people that he became, befriended, helped him get to Vancouver. This Hungarian family that he had met in Ghana, and they helped him get to Vancouver, where they immigrated. And then my mom came, so she left me with family when I was like, three, and he wanted her to see if she'd like Vancouver. And then he came to get me. So I did not meet my father till I was five at the airport. So I really have a deep understanding of the importance of immigration. And obviously, it's a wonderful thing. They've changed my lives, however, that five years, those are big things and big periods of time where you're not with that parental person. And so when I work with immigrants, I'm always like, even if it's going to take five years to get them, go visit every year. You know, it's easier now with FaceTime and all the technology. But back then, you would be writing letters and sending cassette tapes. So I didn't have that same experience of being with my parent because he was busy immigrating and starting a whole new life for us. So I feel like, you know, my dad's passed now almost eight years. It has been his legacy that he's raised two lawyer daughters, that he's established his life. And he. He gave us so much that he sacrificed, and that meant sacrificing time with me to pursue the bigger goal. And I feel like most immigrants have that.
- [04:55]
A
That was the exact word that I was thinking was sacrifice. And the fact that he did sacrifice that for the benefit of his family, that's. That's incredible. I wonder, if he were to go back and do it again, do you think he would still make the same choice?
- [05:08]
B
He's very proud of me and my sister. His whole goal was for us to have the opportunities that he didn't have. And so he would. Absolutely. Maybe he would have brought me sooner. You know, we talked about it. And I think those things affect your relationship for years. That attachment, that didn't happen until later. Whereas my sister was born in Vancouver. We're seven years apart, and. And she never was without either of my parents. So for me, I was without both parents for a couple years. And it changes who you become. So for me, when I think about immigration, I think about the need to stay together as much as possible. I always want families to come together, but sometimes one person has to go first, and I always want them to cut that period as short as possible, because I've seen some of the negative impacts of that if the absence is too long.
- [05:56]
A
So given that experience, I wonder if that's guided your. The way you counsel some of your clients.
- [06:02]
B
I think it. It has. I mean, obviously, most of our clients at my firm are corporate and professional. They bring their families if they can. But some of them come as caregivers, as nurses that may be not able to bring their families right away. I always say you have to go home every year. You have to. Or your employer needs to send you home, or. Or you have to get started on the permanent residence right away. Because I've seen it when children are apart from their parents too long, and it can create a lot of family drama and a lot of feelings of abandonment, and we don't want that. So we're very big on saying, like, let's do it all together or let's do it fast.
- [06:38]
A
Yeah. So you said at the very beginning it was about bringing people to the United States or to Canada. The first thing that I thought of was, like, it's two sets of values that are different. US And Canada are not completely different. There. There's a lot of overlap, but it's. There are. You are selling different things. Right. When you think of, like, whenever I think of the United States, I think freedom, you know, that's like, one of the big things I. I think of, like, when I think of Canada, I think of, like, really nice, happy people. I don't know. It's just a.
- [07:07]
B
We are.
- [07:08]
A
You know what I mean? Like, so I. I just. But I, like. Like, there's no, like, real, like, value that I think of when I think of Canada. I don't know why that is interesting, but I think when, like, the US Is like, freedom, like, that's, like, the thing.
- [07:21]
B
Because it's what, you know. Right. And I mean, like, when I move people. Most of the people that I move are from Canada to the U.S. and they're expanding their businesses or they're investing. So they see it as a larger marketplace, like 10 times bigger and opportunities to just, you know, hugely grow their businesses. Most people are doing it for business or investment reasons, to get green cards. Most people come to Canada for lifestyle, so there's a difference. Health care, you know, for safety. In a different way maybe then they've come from another country and they want to feel safe if they've come from a war torn country. So people choose different countries for different things.
- [07:58]
A
Well, that's what I want to ask about because they are so different. I'm glad you mentioned that. So like the differences, because I knew it'd be easier because you spend so much time in each country. How do you market that? That's like that to me. Like how do you market to those clients? Like, because I feel like the messaging is different.
- [08:17]
B
It's interesting, Tyson, you say that. I mean, I don't really market to where they're going. I market the immigration services, but I don't. They are the ones that know where they want to go. So it's. I really don't market America or the, or Canada, but I market. Are you looking to make a change? Do you own a business? Do you have money to invest? Are you a professional? Where do you want to be? And so I leave it to them to decide where they want to be. If they are coming from Nigeria or Dubai and they want to go to the US and they think that's a big market, go for it. Other people make decisions around where your family already is. Because immigrating, even if you're a professional is hard. It's like start over. You have to find where you're going to get your hair cut, where you're going to send your kids to school. Like, it's not just the work that moves you, it's the whole lifestyle that has to change. So people make those decisions and then I just help facilitate where they want to go.
- [09:08]
A
Because you, you encountered, I mean it was a really tough thing to have to go through that whenever you were five. Right. And not seeing your, your father for so long. So not even five, like from one to five. Do you think that that allows you to overcome obstacles a lot easier than the average person?
- [09:25]
B
Oh my goodness. I feel like I'm in therapy. This is such a good question. I think I'm very resilient. I very much have experienced a lot and I'm very resilient. And my family used to always say, because I was the first, the first to go to university, the first to go to law school, the first to move to big city left Vancouver. There's a lot of firsts I did. I definitely am. I'm strong. And they used to say that. I went to public school and I had so many experiences of racism and discrimination and being chased home and beaten up. And I'll never forget my dad teaching me in grade three how to box, because he was like, we can't keep doing this, Evelyn. So when my sister started school, she went to private Catholic school. They just knew Audrey did not have that same level of, I'm going to keep fighting. We're just different. She's much softer. She's. She's very sweet and kind. Not that I'm not, but I can be very strong, and I think I had to be. So there's a certain sense of self sufficiency that has been with me my whole life.
- [10:25]
A
Now I know not to try to box with you. You know, you got a little bit of little fighting. Not a little bit. A lot of fighting.
- [10:31]
B
Yeah. It's funny. I'll never forget my dad was on his knees and he's like, come on, Evelyn. And I'm like. And, you know, and I'm crying and he's teaching me to box because he was like, you can't keep running. You've got to turn around and deal with it. And I dealt with it, and that was the end of it. But I had a lot of experiences like that growing up that I think really created resiliency in me. And this is Vancouver in the 70s. There were not a lot of people of color. We were very new immigrants, and we didn't have a lot of people around us that look like us. And so it's. It was a lot of being the first and the only. I always say that. That's something that really has been with me my whole life.
- [11:08]
A
I want to know more about the mindset because you talked about the difference between you and your sister. I wonder, like, you encounter a roadblock and what's your initial thought? Like, what do you. Where does your brain go?
- [11:21]
B
How can I fix it? How can I solve it? You know, how can I improve this? How can I pivot? How can I turn this into something positive? That's how I operate. You know, I definitely have moments where I'm like, oh, my God, this just happened. I need a minute. And that minute, a day or two, and then it's like, what can I do to get out of this and shift and move forward?
- [11:43]
A
Was there a shift? You mentioned shift. That's the word I was going to use. Was there a shift at some point where you turned this on, where you learned this, or was this something that you've always had?
- [11:52]
B
I think it's a combination. You know, my parents, they always said that I was very independent. Like, I hated needing them for anything. And this really. I mean, of course they've been wonderful parents, but they. I didn't want to need them in the sense of asking for things, even money. Like, I started working when I was like 12, and I just really wanted to be independent and I felt like I had to take care of myself, I think. And that's that early child experience where even I was surrounded by a whole village of family and friends and the people that were your main people were not there 100 and so even if they took care of me, and my mom and dad would say, we sent you all the best clothes and you had all the best toys. And I did. But those things, when your child don't really make up for not having that person, your nurturer there. So I think it's a combination. And I've done a lot of work personally, you know, like maximum Lawyer, lots of coaching, lots of therapy, lots of reading. Those are things that I think have helped me kind of process all of that and to kind of turn it into something that I think of as a superpower.
- [12:55]
A
What's been the most impactful? You know, you know, coaching. You've had book that. You've had a book that you've read. I mean, like something that has had an impact on you, like on your mindset and don't. And here's the thing. This is. I want to make sure that people clear. This isn't like, for me to push Max Law. So I don't want you to mention Max Law, even if that were the truth. I want you to, like. I want something else. Something that's really informed you, that's really affected your. Your decision making for the positive.
- [13:22]
B
Oh, my goodness. There's so many books. I'm just like, trying to think of one. Yeah, I can't even think of one, Tyson, because there's so many books that I've read that have helped me through difficult times. I think there's one book. I think I forget what its title is, but it's something about how difficult times help you grow. That's the subtitle, but I can't remember the. And it's something that I've read through challenges over and over. I still have it, but it's kind of the book that's about Being a seeker. And there's another book called, I think, the Seeker. And it's that sense that you're always looking for the lessons that are occurring around you and that you're not just. It's not just happening to you, it's happening for you. And, you know, that book in particular has really helped me to kind of understand life. And when things happen, it's like, how do I turn this into a lesson as opposed to just an experience? And then I don't really mind it fully. I think it's important to mine those challenges or those. Those valleys so that you can come out and hold on to that and make it be for a purpose, not just something that came and went.
- [14:27]
A
So that makes me think the Seeker. It makes me think of. There are a lot of people, and this is not a criticism at all, I promise, of you or anybody else. Okay. But I do sometimes see people where they are. They go out and they go to a bunch of conferences, they take a bunch of courses. They learn all this information, but they don't do anything with it. And I wonder with you being a seeker, if it has inhibited you in taking action.
- [14:53]
B
No, I'm very big on action. Sometimes almost too fast. I think sometimes my team would be like, oh, my God, she's back again with another change. But I. I implement. And I think that's the biggest thing that I get out of a lot of the work I've done is you can read it all. And I have read a whole bunch of stuff and I have done a lot of things, but I think it's important to implement and figure out how you can bring part of it into your life, you know, and so it's. I'm not perfect by any means, but I definitely try to take something out of every experience or every opportunity to learn and think about how I can added to my whole platform of things that help me kind of move through life.
- [15:34]
A
So I picked out a quote for you that I wanted to read to you and just get your thoughts on it. The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way, and that's by Marcus Aurelius. So I wonder. To me, that's like the perfect quote for you, but I wonder what your thoughts are.
- [15:49]
B
What stands in the way becomes the way. Interesting. Marcus Aurelius. Yeah, I think there's a lot in that. I think every day I wake up and I'm just focused on taking care of my mental, spiritual, emotional health, physical health, and then taking care of my Children and then thinking about what my purpose is. So that's really important to me is why am I here and how can I make today better than yesterday? That's a big thing for me. And I think people who aren't growth minded, I'm not interested in, you know, I just feel like I want people around me that feel that same passion to do better. Not we can't always do better every day, but to least be striving and to understand what that looks like, but what that feels like to be a tiny bit better than you were the day before.
- [16:39]
A
You had mentioned independence before. Right. And I wonder if that colored your decision to leave cushy corporate law and to start your own firm.
- [16:50]
B
Yep. Freedom is one of my values. So I mean, my values I would say is freedom, which for me is independence. Relationship is a value, authenticity is a value, and just being really transparent. So yes, I think, you know, I learned so much in big law. I would never ever, ever regret that time. But it was a challenge. I was in Toronto, big law, global law firms, sometimes being the only person of col and working 18, 20 hours a day, seven days a week, like, you know, I put in my share, I paid my dues and I learned a lot. And 12 years doing that and making partner made the goal. But once you get there and then you're like, is this really what it is? Like, you know, you're like, is this it? And I just decided I wanted different and I wanted to be able to start a firm that allowed me to bring all of myself to work in a way that I wasn't able to in a firm that I didn't control.
- [17:49]
A
Does that independence cause any issues at work when it comes to the team where you kind of want to maybe be off on your own, doing your own thing, or have you with my firm? With your firm?
- [17:59]
B
No. I think I drive the vision of the firm and they know that this is the vision for us and what we're doing and they know why we do what we do. But I'm very team oriented in the sense that I need these people, these. I always say, I have a saying in my office. I said, your team are your dream builders. They are really helping me build my dream of having my own law firm and take care of my family. And I tell them that all the time. I could not do what I do without them. So we are very much a team. But I'm still leading the team.
- [18:31]
A
I like that. I'm happy to hear that too. When it comes to vision and you Mentioned your purpose. This is a good segue because I want to talk about both of those things. Are those two tied together?
- [18:42]
B
Yes.
- [18:42]
A
And in what ways?
- [18:44]
B
My vision is for Acabusiness Immigration Law to be the premier boutique immigration law firm in North America. And it's tied to the purpose of making transformations happen in people's lives and helping, you know, a million people become immigrants, whether it's in Canada or the United States. And so it just drives me because that is what my purpose is, and it's tied to my vision. And so in order for me to implement my. My vision, I need to keep the purpose close. So whenever, you know, something happens at work, I always say to everybody, remember why we're doing this. Like, look, we just had all these people successfully enter, and if we have one that doesn't get through successfully, let's not let it get us down, because we're making such a big impact in people's lives every day. And when we have tough days, I always tell the team, like, just remember why we're doing this. You know, we're here to change lives. And every day. And so I think they're just interrelated for me, purpose and vision.
- [19:44]
A
Yeah, I agree. Which I'm going to now ask about your. You said you basically get up every day to take care of yourself. How do you take care of yourself? And I'm very curious. The first thing I thought of was, what if she has a morning routine? Because everyone talks about this morning routine, and Hormozi thinks that's a bunch of hogwash to have an actual morning routine, But I do. Yeah. So I wonder what your morning routine is and what else do you do to take care of yourself?
- [20:09]
B
My morning routine is I get up, the alarm goes off, or I wake up before the alarm, and I just lie in bed for about five minutes and just kind of center. Kind of just be grateful I woke up again and don't look at my phone. I do a little meditation. I started this practice. It's called Positive Intelligence. It's called pq, probably about five or six months ago. And it's really helped me through a recent transition to just kind of start my day with. It's kind of like a meditation that's about mindfulness, but also about developing that strength in your brain of. Of being able to detach. So I do that, and it's like five minutes. And then I usually stretch a little bit because I have sore hips. I'm getting old. And then I usually. If I go to the gym, I See my trainer three days a week or I work out at home. I do all that before I get my kids moving in the morning. So it just kind of helps me. And then I look at my phone. So I really try not to look at my phone for the first hour, two hours in my morning.
- [21:10]
A
I need advice. How do you not look at your phone? Do you use it as an alarm clock or do you use something else?
- [21:15]
B
Not anymore.
- [21:15]
A
Okay, so get. Guide me. Help me not look at my phone.
- [21:19]
B
Get an alarm.
- [21:22]
A
Yes. Okay.
- [21:23]
B
Leave your phone in another room.
- [21:27]
A
Here's another thing you got to know about me. I tried an alarm, but the light was too bright on it. I need a light that does not show up during the night. It'll drive me nuts. So do you. Do you have, like, a model that you can think of?
- [21:39]
B
Well, I have a kind that it, like the sun comes up with it, you know, it's like one of those ones or you can hear birds chirping. But it doesn't have. That. Doesn't have the LED thing. So it only gets brighter as the time comes for you to wake up. I love it.
- [21:56]
A
Is that dome looking thing?
- [21:58]
B
Yeah, mine is round.
- [21:59]
A
Okay, I know what you're talking about. Okay.
- [22:01]
B
Yeah, yeah, you can get them on Amazon, but, yeah, I hear you. Or what I do sometimes too, is I have one of those old kind of alarms and I just turn it over. I turn it over. So I don't actually look at the clock. I don't look at the time. I don't know. I just need the alarm. Or you could stick it in your side drawer. Like, literally, it's just for me to wake up with. I don't need to know what time it is. There are options, Tyson, because once I look at the phone, it's over. All of that meditation and gratitude and everything. I'm already like, oh, there's a problem to solve and I don't want to start my day like that.
- [22:34]
A
Have you started to delete, like, social media apps by chance? I'm just curious. I've considered it.
- [22:40]
B
I haven't. I haven't. But I also don't manage a lot of my social media. Thank goodness. Right? My. My team, my marketing team does a lot of it. I. I'm on Facebook for Maximum Lawyer, but also some wonderful lawyer mom groups that I'm in. So I'm still on, but I'm not very active except for on those groups where I actually know the people and. And also immigration Facebook groups. But all the other stuff is kind of mostly Managed by other people in my office, which is good. And LinkedIn. I do some LinkedIn, but they do a lot of it for me too.
- [23:10]
A
I want to know more about pq. Tell me more about that. How did you get into pq? It sounds interesting.
- [23:16]
B
It's so cool. It's called Positive Intelligence. And there's this guy who wrote this book and he was a Silicon Valley executive and he just was like, I do all these things, you go to these conferences, you come back, you're going to change your life and nothing changes. And so one of my girlfriends is a realtor and I recently am going through a separation and she said to me, evelyn, it's been so incredible for my team, but for me. And I was like, why does this pq? I've done all these workshops, I've gone to retreats, I've done meditation and yoga retreats. But she said, no, this is about. It's like developing your brain, your muscle in your brain to be able to tune in and to calm your nervous system. And I really found that my nervous system, you know, was not where it needed to be after that big transition. So little things like you do these PQ reps. It's like gym reps, you know, and it's on an app and he's written a book. So every morning when I do look at my phone, it'll say, you have this PQ rep to do or you have a focus to listen to. And it's like a five or seven minute thing where I'm getting ready in the morning and I'll listen to him and I'll talk about how to divert the stress and focus on your sage brain instead of your saboteur. So it's like, it's a really great program because you look at your saboteur, things like perfectionism that could be a saboteur or needing, you know, to control everything. And so how do you move away from that to just pushing it aside? And then your sage brain comes in, which is the one that is the positive, the calm, the reflective person that you want to be more of. And it helps with parenting, it helps with your staff, helps with dealing with stress. So it's been a helpful tool in my, in my toolkit.
- [25:00]
A
This sounds just like the principles like Jason Salk teaches with, like RSF and Relentless Solution Focus, not focusing on controlling things, all that.
- [25:08]
B
Yeah.
- [25:09]
A
But it sounds like you're just watering the garden more.
- [25:12]
B
Yes. And you do it through the day. So I even have like things in my calendar where it's like, okay, it's time for PQ rep and a PQ rep just to show you. It could be something like this. You're just kind of closing your eyes and you just feeling the little ridges on your fingers for like a minute and you just really don't think about what you have to do or anything else. And then you can do something like this where you're just feeling. It's all sensory. There are different ways to do it. It can be sensory, it could be tightening up for a minute and just letting it go. And it just is that sense of reset through the day as opposed to, I'm going to meditate for an hour and then I go up there and I'm. And I'm jackass all day long, but I meditate for an hour. This is following you through the day where you might do five PQ reps or just if you need it before you have a meeting, kind of setting that mindset before you go in. So you're bringing that sage, calm, loving energy as opposed to like, okay, let's go everybody, you know, and immediately you walk into a meeting like that and it changes and shifts everybody else's mood. So I've been working on that. I'm not perfect but. But I'm working on it.
- [26:17]
A
So I will say this before. So Jason doesn't kill me. He does. He. He believes in watering. It just. It's more of like self guided sounds like with the app. That's what I'm talking about with watering. It's kind of. It, it water, it forces you to kind of water it more often.
- [26:30]
B
It kind of does. It pops up. You know, I can ignore it, which I do sometimes, but at least it's also. I had to put it in my calendar through the day, just that five minutes. Because if not, I'm not looking at my phone all day long. So at least it's. It pops up in my calendar. It's time to do a PQ rep.
- [26:44]
A
What are your thoughts on work life balance? Is it a real thing or is it not a real thing?
- [26:49]
B
I think it varies through your life and in your business. You know, I think that there are times like this year I feel like I've had better balance and other years I haven't.
- [27:00]
A
Hold on a second. That's interesting. You said because you're going through a transition right now. We'll get to that in a second because I want to talk about how it affects your business, but explain how that's possible, that you've had more balance whenever you're going through such a big change.
- [27:19]
B
Well, I've been spending more time with my kids and, you know, they're the priority. So I think it makes me more efficient at work because I'm spending more time with them as a single parent again, and that's. They're my priority. They're volleyball, they're all their activities, you know, and I'm doing it by myself. So, yes, I have like a housekeeper lady who helps us a few hours every day, helps driving because I can't be in two places at once. But I really have been focusing on taking care of myself so I can better take care of them. So, yeah, I feel like when I'm at work, I'm at work, but I. I'm much more regimented about my time to. To leave and spending also working from home more, just to be around more. It's important. So I feel like what you focus on expands. And if I sat at work, I could sit at work for 18 hours a day. But I'm being more efficient, I think, because life is less stressful and I'm able to just go home and be with them and then, yeah, if they get. They go to bed, I might do a little bit of work. But I've actually been working less. I have increased my team and I finally found my unicorn, a senior immigration lawyer who's just killing it. So it's definitely freed me up to not be the one that knows everything.
- [28:33]
A
So I'm going to go into this topic. I'm not going to go deep. I'm not going to get into the details. But I. But the reason I want to know about this is because it's my understanding that your husband was pretty crucial to the running of the firm at some point or was least considered for about.
- [28:50]
B
A year, I think during COVID when nobody was working in the office, I hired him to, you know, to help me. And it worked for a year. And then I was just like, it's too much. You know, I feel like it was more important to have a happy marriage than to have a successful business and not be happy at home. So I transitioned him and, you know, he agreed, but it was. It was a bit of a transition out. So he ended up working elsewhere, doing what he loves, consulting. And I think that was the better thing.
- [29:21]
A
Can you talk about. Maybe this is more for, like, talking to people that are considering a similar move where thinking about bringing in a spouse? Because I've, you know, Amy's in here. She's. I think it's been great yeah. Yeah. Because I've talked about that a lot on the. On the show. But I wonder, can you think about maybe some of the mistakes maybe you all had made that people could avoid?
- [29:39]
B
I think the difference between you and Amy are you're both lawyers.
- [29:42]
A
Well, Amy's not a lawyer.
- [29:43]
B
Oh, I thought she was a lawyer. I thought you're a lawyer.
- [29:46]
A
Amy's not a lawyer. No.
- [29:47]
B
So the other thing is, you guys have been married for a long time. We were literally engaged, about to be married, and I'd had my firm for 10 years, and I was the lawyer. And I think those are the dynamics that really impact us, was he wasn't a lawyer, and it was my firm that brought him in after many years. Wasn't like, we grew it together. So I feel like when I see it working like it works for you and Amy, it's either you've been together a long time, you know each other well, you know, you know how to separate. Working home, we did not. It was all new. And so we would. I would make decisions at work, and then I'd come home and they would still be carrying over. And I thought, this is not, you know, this is not what I want. And sometimes, too, I feel like when I've seen it not working, if the woman is the lawyer, sometimes I think there's some challenges there. For some men, you know, whether it's ego or insecurity or whatever, the idea that they're not the one that's making the final decision sometimes can be a challenge to those kind of male, female dynamics. And so it can work. I have a lot of friends who do it. And even if the spouse is not a lawyer, they have a solid marriage and partnership already. Before that transition, it's not. Or they started together, which is, like, from the ground up. We're in it together. We're a partnership. Mine was different. It was kind of parachuting him in. And after 10 years of running a successful law firm.
- [31:14]
A
Yeah, that is tough. And you do have to have someone that.
- [31:17]
B
Yes.
- [31:17]
A
Is like, makes the decision, and it's. They've got to be able to follow that decision. Otherwise, it just. Yeah, it causes a lot of issues. Yeah, that's a lot to take on. All at one time.
- [31:26]
B
It was a lot. And Covid, like, honestly, it was a lot. Getting married in. During COVID and running a firm during COVID and borders were closed, and it was a lot. And I think I took on too much, and, you know, it didn't work. And I called it so.
- [31:43]
A
Yeah, that that's interesting. When it comes to. So it sounds like you're the. You said the balance has gotten better when it comes to the work life. Has that changed in any way?
- [31:52]
B
The work life?
- [31:53]
A
Yeah, so you said, like, it sounded like. Personal life sounded like it got. The balance was way better. And because you're spending more time with kids, all that.
- [31:59]
B
Yeah. Also, the kids are older. That makes a big difference. My kids are 14 now, you know, and it was brutal when they were babies, I started the firm because they arrived. I adopted them, and it was like I needed to. So there was no work life balance in the first seven, eight years. It was just go, go, go. And so getting married did help, I think, with that, having a partner, somebody who's helping with the kids and all that. But it also added more complexity because we have different styles, different parenting, different history, different bonding, you know, And I think when you bring somebody into your existing family, it's not always easy to. To create something different. And so I feel like because they're older and more independent, it is a little easier, but they also need you more. So I'm around more, but I don't need to be, like, doing everything for them anymore. So it's. It's a different relationship, I think.
- [32:55]
A
Yeah. Has. Has the team had to pick up more of the slack because you've been going through this transition?
- [33:00]
B
Yes, they have. And I told them right away, and they have been so incredible. Like, you know, it was not easy. There were some difficult days, but they were just all like, wow, Evelyn, like, you're. You're doing this and we're with you, we support you, whatever you need. And so there have definitely been days where I would just be like, I'm going home, it's 2 o', clock, I'm going home, it's 12 o', clock, or I'm not coming in and just needing to take care of myself first so I could take care of the kids. And so the team has definitely stepped up and they've been so wonderful. Like, the level of support I've gotten and just their respect around how I've managed this through running a business, through raising kids. You know, there's been a lot of sharing, and I think it's brought us all closer.
- [33:41]
A
Well, that's good. I wanted to ask you about that because I did. Did it allow you to trust them more too, though? Like, is it something where. Because it didn't seem like you've. You've had any issues trusting your team, but I, I do wonder if it's taught you that you can rely on them more than what you thought you could.
- [33:55]
B
I think so. I mean, I have a great team. They're international, but I'm also very transparent. And literally the day I ended it, I walked in and I said, hey, by the way, this is what's happening. I want you to know that I'm going through this. And the kids and I were good. Everything is fine. I might be a little bit less focused for the next little while. So I need you to bring to me things that are urgent because I'm only dealing with what's urgent right now while I, you know, take care. And they've really, really stepped up and supported me and they all just kind of embrace me with, we're your work, family. We're here for you, whatever you need. And so, yeah, I took a week in July to go to this hiking retreat in British Columbia. It was beautiful. It's called Mountain Trek. It's a reset. And there's like no technology, no coffee, which was a little hard. No alcohol, and really healthy, healthy food and hiking every day. But also lots of like the whole Nordic circuit of hot and cold and ice water and all that and massages and body work and, and just being out in nature, like tree hugging. It was crazy. It was wonderful. And it really helped me. And I did nothing that whole week. They just took care of everything. I didn't talk to anybody and I got to just kind of reset.
- [35:13]
A
Was it one of the retreats where you, you literally didn't talk to anybody? It was like just like a silent retreat?
- [35:18]
B
No, it wasn't a silent retreat. I didn't talk to my people, my team, my family, nobody. The kids were with grandma. No technology allowed. It was really great.
- [35:27]
A
The caffeine. I feel like you'd get a headache. I would get a headache, yeah.
- [35:31]
B
That's why they tell you to wean yourself off. The week before, which I had done and I still brought Tylenol just in case.
- [35:38]
A
Was it hard to, to do the whole week?
- [35:41]
B
No, once the first day and the food was incredible. Everybody lost weight. It wasn't. I wasn't the reason I went, but the hiking is. It's pretty intense, right? If you're not a hiker. I haven't hiked for a long time, but it was just beautiful. And you had different groups, so there's like some. There was like 73 year old woman in the. That was in the group four, which is the slower group then group one. They're basically like repelling. And I was usually in group two or three, but it was just being out in nature and I feel like nature is so healing and I got a lot out of it.
- [36:10]
A
All right, so some people, they could go to that event. That event, the whatever you want to call it, the getaway, go for a week and you have a great experience. Great. And then you leave and everything goes back to normal. How do you take the lessons that you learn and what lessons did you learn that you can then take away and then use in your daily life?
- [36:29]
B
There is even a new nutritionist there. I did something called somatic therapy, which is more sensory and even physical. So I've found a somatic therapist. It's different from just chit chatting, you know, cognitive behavior or talking to a therapist. I, as I said I'm doing more body work because I realize that sometimes trauma or stress, it's not just in the brain and the emotions, it's physically in your cells. So I went to my first osteopathic appointment last week, which is a really different kind of modality. I returned to acupuncture, which I'd also done when I was there. So they introduced me to a lot of different things that I thought I want to continue this. So I'm doing that. And I'm also. What's the other one? Reiki. So again, these are all kind of like, they sound a little woo woo, but they're also kind of helping my nervous system kind of come back down. And I think that's what I needed. I mean, I'm not. There's no regrets. Life happens. I'm happy, happy. But I feel like my body still needs to catch up with my mind and my emotions around a little bit of the trauma of divorcing and going through that and thinking about your children and wanting to make sure you're doing the best for them. So that's carried over and I've added an extra day to my personal training routine. Strength training is really important. I, I do it already but we've kind of increased the weights and increased the, the amount of time I go. So I feel like I'm and they, that what I love is they have like a month follow up and then three month follow up and six month follow up. So they want you to think about even your work life. They even gave us some strategies around how are you managing work? So I haven't gone back into this crazy throw myself into work. I'm trying to find the balance and keep the balance that I got from that experience.
- [38:14]
A
Have you done any Therapy on childhood trauma. I have, I'd heard, and I wonder if this is true. I'd heard. I think I saw it on a video. But how. If you have a trauma, let's say you have trauma at five.
- [38:25]
B
Yeah, right. Yeah.
- [38:26]
A
Sometimes your emotions will get stuck at that age, whatever it was. So whenever you have a certain. Let's say it's anger. Let's say you experience a really traumatic event and it made you really angry and you become angry now, it usually relates back to like, when you were five, when you. So have you found that to be true?
- [38:41]
B
I've done that. I did that work when I was in my 20s. Like, you know, because I love my family. But Africans historically are not really big on, like, modern Western therapy. It's not a thing like we're just kind of your family and your community support you. And I was reaching out during law school because I felt like I had some stuff to work through. So I did inner child work in my 20s. For me, it was more around abandonment, because even if you know why your family has left you, that's my trigger. That's my trigger. And so I needed to really process that. And I have to say, parenting again, it's almost like you get an opportunity to reparent yourself. It has been the most incredible experience watching life through, you know, you know how it is, your children's eyes, but also thinking, how are you going to traumatize them? What are you going to give them that's different from what you got? Of course, you want to make sure you. We always want to improve upon what we received, but they're still going to have issues. And so for me, it's been, how am I going to parent in a way that is loving and supportive? Or we can talk about feelings. Not in the way I was raised where you didn't really talk about your feelings, but they know no matter what, I'm on their side. No matter what. It's really allowed me to reparent myself also by parenting them.
- [39:57]
A
Love that we're going to do. There's no great transition into this. We're going to shift gears. And I want to, I want to talk about. There's been a lot of changes in the U.S. immigration. Right. And if I were an immigration attorney, I'd be like, what is going on right now? How do you keep eyes on the prize focused in what seems to be a very turbulent time as an immigration attorney?
- [40:19]
B
Well, I have to say, I'm so grateful I'm in Canada, honestly, because I feel for My friends that are practicing in the US it is stressful. I feel the stress when Americans call and say I gotta get out, I have a trans kid or, or I have a non binary kid or we're a lesbian couple and worried about some of my rights that might be changing or, or I just want to have my daughter be able to go see a doctor and get birth control. Like, like I, I feel it through their stress. And so I focus on my team. We talk a lot about this. I'm like, we have to take care of ourselves because we're not going to. We don't want to take on that level of anxiety and stress. And some of it is hysteria, some of it is people are emotional, they're crying like things that, you know, people are scared. And so in Canada I'm feeling it, but not in the same way as lawyers here, I have to say. And I think because I do mostly professional immigration, corporate business immigration, it's not that same. Oh my God, I'm being deported like that stuff. That's why I don't do that work. I know myself and I knew early on I could never do family law, I could never do criminal law because I'm just too emotionally connected. It would be too difficult for me to separate. So for me choosing this professional corporate immigration, there's a bit of a distance still. It's emotional and it's challenging and you want to be successful every time because you know what's at stake. But it's not life and death. My people are not being sent to camps in another country. So yeah, I feel like the self care has been increased this year for sure.
- [41:50]
A
Has it affected the business at all?
- [41:51]
B
We're busy, we're busier than we've ever been. We're going to have our best year, which I'm very grateful for. But I'm also torn because I don't want to be busier because people are feeling they have to leave their country of birth or leave the U.S. because you know, America's a great place. It's just going through. There's so much division right now. And so we just recently moved up my godmother, stepdaughter, Washington state. They're professionals. He's a physio, she's a naturopathic doctor. They have two kids and they just said we're moving. They just moved to Calgary. And so I'm doing work for people, I know some of them and, and it feels even more personal because I have to be successful. So there's that added pressure like, oh my God, what if I don't get them into Canada? You know, like I have to look at them at Christmas dinner or whatever. It just feels like more is at stake now.
- [42:40]
A
It's interesting because I feel like that only every case it's like for us because like every case, like the, like we're, it's, you know, about an injured client.
- [42:48]
B
I think when it's somebody, you know, like I've immigrated somebody from Ghana recently too, and I know him and if it wasn't successful, like the life changing transformation that I could offer him if I wasn't successful, it feels even, I think, more of a failure. Different. Of course, I hate to fail my clients and we don't usually, but it happens and then we have to figure out how to fix it. But when it's somebody you know and you will see them at dinner at your house, you know, it feels even more personal. And I hate working for family. I've actually decided I don't want to do it because it's very stressful if something goes wrong and you can't control all the pieces, you can't control immigration processing or whatever, it feels very much like I've let them down and I don't want that ever.
- [43:34]
A
So it was interesting. So I remember Jim and I talking about. It was before the election and he was talking about being worried about Trump winning. And I remember asking him, I said, well, when was the busiest you've ever been? It was whenever Trump was elected the last time because he was worried about business going the other way. And I was telling, I was like, no, it's going to go up, it's going to go way up. And it sounds like that's. I think that that's true. My concern, I think would be for immigration attorneys at this point is that I feel like it's almost artificially inflated right now where people are going to start to staff up, beef up, beef up, beef up. So my concern would actually be on the back end of all of this. It's that. And I think this is a really important business lesson for people where you might have to temporarily beef up. This is not a permanent thing.
- [44:25]
B
No, it's not.
- [44:25]
A
It's. It. This is a temporary thing.
- [44:28]
B
Temporary.
- [44:28]
A
Whether you agree it just has nothing to do with agreeing with the policies or not. This has to do with, from a business standpoint, my concern would be, oh, people thinking that this is like a long term thing. And I don't think that that's what's going to be at all.
- [44:40]
B
Yeah, No, I don't think it is either. I mean, like we had our. The first four months of the year were the best four months we've ever had. And then we're like, oh my God. And so I started looking to hire, right? And I hired a junior lawyer because I still was looking for that senior lawyer. And then I found the senior lawyer and then I realized, and I think another paralegal, that we had too many people. But also the junior lawyer didn't bring value at all. Like, she oversold herself. So I let her go. And it was because I didn't want to carry her, to train her for a year or two for her to be productive. Whereas this one with 18 years experience walked in the door. She could replace me on everything, except she's not great yet at selling consultations, like selling the file. So that's a, that's where I'm coaching her. But she can manage everybody else's work, the paralegals, everything. So I did have to readjust and I think we also hired another VA to help with marketing and we were like, didn't bring that much value. Let her go. So that dip in the summer was like, and now we're back up again. And I'm like, so I think using contract support is going to be how I get through as opposed to committing to people full time employment unless we diversify. Which is why I'm looking at employment, labor, corporate tax, how I can. We're back. We've had this conversation is like, how do we bring in all these other practice areas that I refer to to keep our firm diversified, especially with, with.
- [46:12]
A
The, all the instability that. That's one of those things where it could be. And I'm, you know, me, I've been a firm believer in having niche, like big niche. But there are areas where, if it, if there's a lot of. If things are in flux, I mean you can use. Even if you just looked at it like in an accountant, right, they're busy season. What is it? You know, the first few months of the year and then it's kind of steady and they have to find other things to do, like bookkeeping, all that kind of stuff. But like, I would be okay with like a. If there's any fluctuation in your business like that. I'm completely fine with having these other areas that help keep things as level as possible because it's the massive ebbs and flows that are really, really dangerous. And so how do you, how do you as the owner prevent yourself from siphoning all the bunny out of the business because you know, things are good and then whenever things are not so because that's where you have to, you have to plan for those downtimes too. So how do you like, what fail safes do you have in place to prevent things from like that, from that happening?
- [47:09]
B
Well, I think putting a lot of money away and having a big emergency fund for the firm or you know, to be able to operate the firm for six months or more in case things really decline and obviously having a big line of credit if needed. But actually putting money away has been this, is this last year. I've really tried to be more disciplined about that and also even just for myself and you know, having feeling this sense of security by knowing that, okay, we've got these six figure plus over here that if I need it, it's there, it'll cover six months or more. And it's not my money to touch, it's. It's the firm money in case we need it. So that emergency piece has been really great to have. Not just, it's not trust funds, it's literally money that we've earned that we've just put somewhere else. That's been helpful. And I have new accountants and bookkeepers that are really strategic and more CFO support, which has been helpful for me because I need the discipline for sure.
- [48:05]
A
Is it a virtual cfo? Do you have an in person cfo?
- [48:08]
B
They're in Canada, they're in Calgary, but they're national too.
- [48:12]
A
Are they full time? I guess.
- [48:13]
B
Oh no, they don't work for me. They're my accounting firm. And then they have their bookkeepers that also do our monthly bookkeeping.
- [48:20]
A
Yeah, because I was wondering what your thoughts were like on a virtual cfo because I know there, you know, multiple people have been talking about having like a virtual CFO or they, you know, work part time for the, for the firm and all that. I just wonder if you had any thoughts on that.
- [48:32]
B
I would love to have somebody I've struggled to find. Like I tried to find a CEO and in a few weeks I was like, oh no, this is not the right person. So for me the ideal would be having a great CEO and maybe a virtual or part time CFO that would be a wonderful addition for next year. That's kind of my, my hope.
- [48:52]
A
This isn't to criticize that the person you were considering, but when you were looking at that situation, what, what was, what made it a fit? What made it not a fit? What made you interested in the person what ultimately made you decide not to go with that person for the coo?
- [49:07]
B
I feel like people sell themselves so much, and I think no matter how many, you know, tests you do and, you know, you've got your whole training model and use some of it even, I feel like people are not always who they are. They present, you know, and if they're not self aware, it's like, I'm this perfect, wonderful person. And she sounded incred, and she was. We seemed to get each other, but then she moved. She came into the office, and immediately I found her divisive. And she was kind of like. She didn't have my back in the way within. Like, what? I was like, what is this your firm? Like, what it was, it was bizarre and then kind of creating drama on the side. And I thought, this is not what we need. We need somebody who's above the fray, who's got my back, and who is my person. And I thought she was, and she wasn't. So within a month, we just ended it. I ended it. And everybody was like, oh, thank God. Because she made people feel badly about their work quality. And I was just like, that's not what you want. And somebody who doesn't even know how things operate, you don't walk in and just want to throw everything away. Take some time. I want all your suggestions, but give it a few months of observing and learning what everybody does before you start wanting to throw everything out.
- [50:20]
A
I think that's smart. I mean, do you. I mean, do you dodged a massive bullet.
- [50:24]
B
I did. I did.
- [50:25]
A
That's really good.
- [50:26]
B
I've learned to, you know, I. I think I hire slow, but I'm still making hiring, you know, mistakes. I think this is. It's never perfect, but definitely firing fast. Very much.
- [50:38]
A
All right, so you. And if you don't want to talk about this because it's. This is actually being recorded. You mentioned this on a hot seat. So if we can cut this part, if you don't want to talk about it, but there was a time where you. You had a bunch of influx of leads. Do you remember that? Mm. Can we talk about that?
- [50:54]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I remember that.
- [50:55]
A
Okay. So you had the massive influx of leads, and it was causing a bunch of issues with the firm. Can you talk a little bit? Because I think that's a valuable lesson that people. They may not realize the downside of having an influx of leads. So can we talk about that a little bit?
- [51:09]
B
Yeah. I mean, I remember I was having so many leads, but then we weren't Converting them, which was stressing me out. And then we, if we were converting them, we had a lot of work. And I was worrying about the production side of things too, because the back side didn't necessarily. We didn't have as many people as we needed. So it was. It's not always perfect. But then for me, it made me realize that the volume of leads, they were not good leads, you know, some of them. Right. And needing to narrow the marketing to try to improve the quality of leads is more important than the volume of leads. So I've learned that the hard way, because you spend a lot of money and you're like, this is crap. Why am I wasting my staff's time going through all of these people that will never purchase our legal services? So I've definitely worked on that. It's not perfect, but we've got a great marketing provider. Externally, her people are great. And also we have two. So which means that they do different things. And we have the Google people and we really working on PPC and really AB testing as much as possible and dealing with all the changes in AI and the algorithms and everything. So we've been just pivot, pivot, pivot, test, test, test. And it's been really helpful.
- [52:27]
A
Going back, would you have done it the same way and then tweaked it after the influx of leads, or would you have tweaked it before launching the platform or the marketing campaign?
- [52:39]
B
I think I would have tweaked it more. I think it's important. Like, it's not my strength in the sense that this is not what I do for a living. You trust that your providers. And one thing I did do this year is I brought in a fractional CMO for three months. And he's like, he was the one that was having the conversations with those two external agencies and really letting them know he was watching and that he was checking everything and he was giving feedback and. And they talked the same language, you know, Whereas for us, we don't know what you're talking about. And I feel like that was the most worthwhile three months of money spent because he's no longer with us. But they know we've cleaned up a lot. And I think if you can find that, that person who can give that audit perspective and really be like, we don't want volume. We want qualified leads that will convert, not just a bunch of leads. People calling it saves you a lot of time and money. I wasted a lot of money, I.
- [53:38]
A
Would say, why only the three months?
- [53:40]
B
Well, it was a short term contract for the him to be able to talk to all of our people and really kind of get them to justify what they're doing and to cut through the bullshit and make sure that what they were doing was effective. And so we did some tweaking every month and we met and he talked to them. But also I didn't want them to feel threatened because I didn't want to lose them. They're great, hardworking people, but we wanted them to know that we have a professional on our side. So if I need them, like the plan is, I can always call him in and he can spend another three months. But I don't need that person permanently. If you've got the campaigns going, you've maximize them. He's like, yeah, they're doing a really good job now. Like we've cut this crap and now we're doing this. I felt like let's just take a pause for a few months and then we can come back again and look at it.
- [54:25]
A
That's interesting. If it were up to him, would he. Because I am. Because sometimes they will, they will push. Not I'm just general dumb days. The all the virtual, you know, CFOs, COOs or any of them. But if it were up to him, would he stick around full time or.
- [54:43]
B
I don't think so. You know, he's busy and he knows we know that he's available. And I think if I start feeling and seeing a change or feeling like we're not getting what we need. I felt like his three months with us, he met with everybody, he drilled down, he questioned them, he had them justify, he had them ab testing everything. And he let them know, like we're watching, like don't be doing anything. That is not going to be the benefit of this firm and Evelyn and her marketing. And so we did as much maximizing as we could. And so I think maybe in another three months we'll bring him back again. But I needed, I think, giving them a break where they don't feel like there's like this overseer all the time too. I want them to know that we trust them, but we also were needing somebody who spoke their language. And this person has like 25 years of marketing experience and, and could say, oh yeah, they're doing a really good job. This is, you've got good people. And even just to tell me like these two vendors, they're good, they know what they're doing. That gave me a sense of confidence that we'd finally found a team of people that actually knew what they were doing and they weren't just bullshitting us because, you know, we all get. We all get this. They sell you everything, and they're like, sure. And I don't know what that means. He was able to give me that confidence.
- [55:57]
A
I love that. If you'll give me his information. Well, I'll put it in the show notes, because that would be. It's one of the things, like, I like working with good vendors, and I like to. We. We like to celebrate the good vendors and just punt the ones that are the bad ones. Get rid of the bad ones because there's. So we started Becca's list.
- [56:12]
B
I love my people, but I'm like, I don't know. If I want to share them with everybody, then they'll be too busy to do my work.
- [56:17]
A
You know, that is. That is. Why do you. Why is that a problem in legal? It's crazy because it is a problem where someone starts to get popular, and then next thing, their service just falls off the.
- [56:27]
B
That's what I'm saying. I don't want that. I don't either, and I don't want that. I want to be busy and have my clients still feel like they're the only ones. Do you know that's my goal, is not to feel like we've got 300 files on the go, but that you're the only file. That's my goal. And I feel like we don't get that sometimes from vendors.
- [56:44]
A
How do you maintain that from a client standpoint? How do you make sure that all clients feel that way?
- [56:48]
B
We audit our files.
- [56:50]
A
How often do you do it?
- [56:51]
B
We do it every month. We meet every two weeks on files, but we audit them. And as well, once a month, we have an external, like the lawyer. The senior lawyer does it. I used to be me. We do surveys with clients. We have client experience coordinator who calls the clients the files that are in process. So I love to know if something is. I'm struggling with this portal or this is this tech. I don't like it. Okay. I like to hear it early on rather than at the end. And then you give us a shitty review. So she calls within a month of us opening a file. How's it going? What's your experience? Is there anything we can do better? And we love to get the 10 out of 10. And we, you know, and if it's an 8, why is it an 8? There's something we can do. I get on the phone and so it allows us to minimize the problems earlier.
- [57:36]
A
The. The client checking calls are so valuable.
- [57:39]
B
So valuable.
- [57:40]
A
People don't realize the survey is great, whatever. But the calls, you learn and you can head off issues so quickly. You can turn a problem client into a great client. Like just the biggest advocate just with a phone call.
- [57:53]
B
Absolutely. And I've like, sometimes, yeah, we make mistakes, things happen. And I'll hear, oh, I'm giving them a six because this. And I couldn't get on the portal and I didn't like that it took three days for somebody to call me or whatever. I call those people and I say, listen, I let. I heard this. Let me tell you what our standard is. I'm so sorry this happened. How can I make this right? What do you need from me? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And they are usually like, oh, my goodness, I didn't expect you to call me Evelyn. Thank you, you know, thank you for calling, but I'm good. It's okay. We got it sorted. Da, da, da. But it makes a difference because I don't want to hear it at the end, but, yeah, it's never perfect, you know, Tyson, you know, running a business is like moving parts all the time. But that client experience coordinator role has been fabulous for us. And it's that checking in through the whole process. So 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, there's a call, and once the file is submitted, we're also following up every month and letting them know what's happening so that that communication is happening while we're waiting for the government. But I'm really looking at ways to even offer more kind of at the end support. And what else can we do for you and do you need referrals? Here's our VIP list of our partners. If you need a realtor, if you needed this, if you needed that, so that they feel like we are with them, even if they've gotten that first step, that we don't abandon them.
- [59:10]
A
The end is probably the most important part. There are a lot of studies on this about you could do, let's say you get 99% of the way there. You script the last 1%. And that's what they remember. That's what they remember. So getting that. And that's one of the parts that we've got to work on, like internally. It's easy to get all the other stuff set up. It's finishing the thing out and doing it well. That's the. It may be the hardest part. I don't know.
- [59:37]
B
We're going back to like reporting letters and it sounds Like, I used to do them in corporate, and I used to do with immigration, and then I stopped doing them because we say, congratulations. We send you a little something. And I think it's important to be sending something to remind them of all the great work we've done. And sometimes they forget, too. But when you put it in a letter and a thank you, but plus a letter that said, this is what we did for you, I think it'll help them remember what it was that they received. So we've just gone back to that.
- [60:05]
A
You ever look back and celebrate your success?
- [60:08]
B
I do. Sometimes I do, and I don't because I feel like being humble is really important to me and trying to be. I celebrate the team's success. I'm so proud of the team that I've been able to put together, and they're proud of themselves, and they know that I couldn't have done any of this without them. And so I'm really proud of the team. You know, we recently had a team retreat. We brought people from North America together. So much fun. And I've been to the Philippines, as you know, to see some of my team there. I've been to Ghana to see some of the people there. Like, I want people that are with us for the long, long term. But, yeah, I think. I think my dad would be really proud, and that's really important to me. And he was proud, and my mom is proud. But I think the kids know that Mom's gone to work, and they know why I work. And early on, when I was a single parent, I'd be like. They were like, mom, why can't you stay home? And I'm like, you know what? You want that Nintendo? I have to work for it, Nate. Or you want that? Ballet lessons, Lauren. Mom has to work for it. And so the kids. For me, that's the biggest piece is they know my business. They come to the office all the time. They know the team. They know why I'm not home and why I'm doing it, so we can have great vacations and great experiences that I never had growing up. And they're appreciative, and I want. I want that for them. That's what makes me the proudest, is that I can do those things for them.
- [61:28]
A
So if you look back, like, 10 years, like, think about 10 years ago. That's when you started, right?
- [61:33]
B
No, 15. I'm old man.
- [61:37]
A
15 years.
- [61:38]
B
15 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, 2010.
- [61:41]
A
So if you think back to 2010, so think about, like, from them to today. Do you think you have exceeded where you thought you were going to be? Is it below where you thought you were going to be? Right where you thought you were going to be?
- [61:54]
B
I've exceeded because I don't think I was like, I started with my. With my practice that I. That came with me. And so it was like, you know, the number was there. And I was like, okay, I've exceeded what I thought because I didn't have a big, hairy, audacious goal. I do now. But at the time, I hadn't done a lot of leadership and business coaching or I wasn't the biggest person dealing with finances. I wasn't good at it. So it's definitely changed my vision. And I have to say, like, the people with Maximum Lawyer and the people in other groups I've been with, especially Americans, like, I think the American lawyers have really helped me develop because they are so out there. You know, there's like, there are things that I do that no Canadian lawyers are doing because we're just like, nice, friendly Canadians and we're not like, aggressively building in the same way. So I've learned a lot just from being. Spending as much time as I can in the States and absorbing that sense of go get it. You know, be aggressive, you can be driven. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do better and better for your team and for your family. So, yeah, I feel like I've got some big goals in the next 10 years.
- [63:06]
A
I want to hear about some of those big goals. What are some of them? Just pick. Give me one.
- [63:11]
B
I want a big number.
- [63:14]
A
Okay, you don't have to tell me what the number is, but.
- [63:16]
B
And I'm either going to buy another firm or I'm probably gonna. Or I will sell the firm. So I'm preparing the firm for both in the opportunity of. Of selling or buying.
- [63:25]
A
Okay. So I was gonna end on the question related to that. So I'll end on this. Would you ever. Sounds like you would. Would you ever consider selling your firm and why. Or why not? So you said you sound like you would consider selling your firm.
- [63:42]
B
I would, unless my kids want it, you know, because again, I don't want the pressure. I'm not. Not that lawyer that's like, oh, you know, we have a family of lawyers and somebody's just going to buy the firm or take over. I don't expect that. This morning I was talking to a law firm client and they refer great business to me. But it's interesting the. The Two founders, their children work in the firm, and then the, the brothers and the sisters. And, you know, it's just. It's like, wow. It's incredible. I don't expect that of my children. So I don't want them to feel the weight of that legacy. So if they want to, sometimes they'll say, Lauren especially will say, mom, I'm going to take over from. Okay, whatever, if you want to, but I don't expect them to. And so I want to look at how I can monetize the firm as much as possible. Either I sell it to somebody else and it continues in a different name with the clients being well cared for, or I buy a bigger, another firm and make it a bigger firm, and then I have partners, and then I leave it. Because right now I don't have any partners. So that 10 year plan is real. I'm starting to really look at how the future will look. I'm 54. I'd like to know that I have it all locked down. And when I want to leave, I can.
- [64:56]
A
I. I can't leave it. I can't leave it alone. I was gonna. I was gonna end there, but I can't. Now that you said that, have you looked at the retirement age versus longevity chart?
- [65:07]
B
I have.
- [65:08]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [65:09]
B
Isn't it scary? You need a lot of money, man.
- [65:11]
A
It is so scary.
- [65:14]
B
I want to live to be 95. So, you know, well, what am I going to do?
- [65:19]
A
This chart, it shows the one I'm talking about. Maybe a different chart. So it's. Let's say you retire at 54, right? You live way longer than if you lived at 65 till you retired at 65. And it, it is. So it's like the inverse. So the, the later you retire, the, the, you, you die younger.
- [65:38]
B
What? I've never seen that.
- [65:40]
A
Yes, the later you retire, you die younger. So no. Yes, you get to celebrate. The more you work, the longer you work, the less you get to actually celebrate all that or enjoy all of it.
- [65:52]
B
But my view is, that's the thing, is my live vision is not about waiting to retirement. That's the thing. I think you, you're the same. Are you kidding me? Like, my view is not like, spend it all now, but it's like die with zero. That concept of that book, which is about not just waiting till you die to give your kids stuff and have experiences with them to do it now. So I'm very big on that. We have experiences. We're planning travel to Japan or planning safaris. We're, we're doing the, the kind of travel and experiences that we want to do. I'm not waiting. Because the other thing is when you're older, you travel differently, you experience differently. I don't want to be on a bus looking and, you know, in Spain and say, oh, there's Spain. I want to be able to walk around and do those things. So I don't know, I feel like I could end up working until I'm 75, 80. Like, I love most of what I do, but I want to be able to choose to once a week, twice a week, be the face of the firm, wrinkled up as can be. I don't care, but. But I don't. I don't want to wait and be like, okay, I've retired now. I'm just, now my life will start. My life is now. And I don't think we're promised tomorrow. So I'm, I really believe that. And when you lose somebody unexpectedly, you know, traumatically fast, that it just changes your perspective on life. And I think it's made me much more sensitive to time and recognizing we don't have time. So let's plan for it now and let's. Let's get it done.
- [67:18]
A
I can't think of a better way to end. That's a great message to end on. Evelyn Akka, thank you so much.
- [67:22]
B
Thank you. Thanks, Tyson. The annual Maximum Lawyer State of the Firm survey is officially live and open until November 16th. This is your chance to see exactly how your firm stands up against others across the country.
- [67:50]
A
What they're spending, where they're getting clients.
- [67:52]
B
What'S actually working right now. It's faster and more impactful than ever. And when you complete it, you'll get the full report for free. Plus be entered to win a $500am Amazon gift card.
- [68:03]
A
Results and winner will be presented live on January 8th at 2pm Central Time.
- [68:07]
B
In the Maximum Lawyer Facebook group. Head to MaxLawSurvey.com to be a part.
- [68:12]
A
Of the most influential report shaping the future of law firm ownership.