A (2:58)

See, that's really incredible. And I guess my concern would be, and I wonder what your thoughts are on this, because I've seen where you talk about numbers before and brackets and a lot of different things. Where is that point where you've crossed the line where you get put in like, you know, Gmail jail or email jail, where you've not crossed the line and it's just too much, you know?

B (3:16)

Yeah, and that's a great, great topic because if you rewind 10 years ago, what you wrote in your subject line, what you wrote in your body copy, the headline or email was the reason whether you stayed in the inbox or went to the junk or spam folder, right, Gmail or wherever, it didn't matter because back 10 years ago, it was all based on content, the words and symbols and capitalization. And still today, if you go and you Google words to avoid or spam trigger words, you'll find all these lists of things that tell you if you do this, you're going to go to the junk folder and it's just an epic regurgitation of nonsense and misinformation. It's not tr. You don't go to the junk folder or spam folder because of spammy words, because of words like free, because of exclamation marks or emojis. You don't. It has nothing to do with the content, the words or symbols that you're doing. It has to do with more technical stuff. And so the irony is the way that you stay in the inbox now is by getting a lot more opens, a lot more clicks, by showing that you are a sender that generates engagement. And when I say the irony is by doing all the things that you think you're supposed to avoid, words like free, exclamation marks, capitalization, those things actually generate more engagement, more opens more activity, and it actually keeps you in the Inbox more. So the funny part is the things that we all are, we're avoiding because we think it caused us to go to the junk are the things we should be doing to keep us out of the junk folder.

A (4:36)

I've got sort of a follow up to this. It's going a little bit deeper. So you know how in Gmail you've got like your regular inbox and you got like the updates and then you got the promotions. How do you stay out of promotions and updates so that you stay. Or does it. Or does that even matter?

B (4:50)

So the promotions tab is a great place to be. And this is another thing that people get confused by. Number one, trying to get out of the promotions tab is really hard. And there'll be companies out there that say they can help you do it and they could do it for maybe a few weeks and then you're back in there. It's not worth it. And I'll tell you why people get that promotions tab wrong. First of all, not that many people have it activated. Less than 30% of people have their Gmail or Apple Mail promotions tab activated. All right, of the people who do have that promotions tab activated, where your mail is automatically put into these different buckets, 50% of the people that have it activated, check it every day. Okay? So 50% of people are taking the time to go into their promotions tab every day. Now, why does that matter? When someone goes to the mall, right? You're in a buying zone. You're like, what am I buying? I'm at the mall. That's the mindset that you're in. When someone clicks on the promotions tab. They're not lost. They're not like, where am I? What am I doing? They're, they're in there looking for promotions and things that they can engage with in that way. So 50% of the people on a daily basis are going there looking to engage with these offers and these things. And we've actually seen absolutely no drop in performance for any kind of sender. Lawyer, legal things, small business, big business, consumer, B2B. No drop in performance by your emails going into the promotions tab. So it's a waste of energy and actually not a good use of your time to try to get out of it.

A (6:11)

Why do you think that email has persevered? Because if you had asked me 10 years ago, I would have said by this point email would be declining. Especially if you told me that AI was taking off the way it is. Like, why do you think it's persevered the way it has.

B (6:23)

Well, first of all, everything else is rented real estate. Email is owned real estate, Right? There's no other media on the planet that when you want to communicate with your entire audience, you get to decide that you're going to send out a communication. You want to do that in social, if you Post, Lucky if 10% of your network that follows you will see it. You want to do it on tv? Ain't gonna happen. You're not gonna reach your whole audience. You wanna do it on search, you have to pay a billion dollars a keyword. You can't reach your whole audience. There's no other media on the planet that for relatively no money, you can communicate to your audience whenever you want. And now with the world of AI, it's gonna become even a bigger deal. And here's why. Now 60% of the time when people are going to Google now to search for something, now 60% of searches are resulting in people not leaving Google. They're getting their answers because of AI mode on Google itself. Same thing with ChatGPT. They're getting the information they need without ever leaving. Which is why website traffic is starting to crater, right? People's website traffic is going down, down, down. In 2026, forget it. You're gonna have no website traffic because people are staying on these AI platforms and on things like Google, they're not leaving. So you're gonna need a robust email database even more to reach your audience because they're not coming to your site anymore. So email is the cockroach of marketing. It will never die. It will outlive us all and it's the most valuable asset in your business, in my opinion.

A (7:44)

I've heard from several people that you want people to unsubscribe because you basically want to tailor your list and get it, get it kind of fine tuned. Is that, is that, does that still apply? Do you, do you agree with that?

B (7:54)

Oh, I think unsubscribes are great and they're misunderstood. So why do I think they're misunderstood? So first off, when people get, you know, let's say somebody listens to this episode and the guy, Jay, you talk too fast, he's annoying. But I'm going to try what he said. Okay, I'm going to stick a number at the start of my subject line and I stick a number, the four things you need to avoid in 2026. And I hit send to my database. Now when you hit send to the database, what happens? Your open rate goes up. Oh my God, we got such a high Open rate. We got a great click through rate. Oh my goodness. Uh oh. We also got more unsubscribes than we've gotten like in six months. This guy Jay has no idea what he's talking about. And that may be true, but, but what really happened though, is something different. What really happened was someone got the email that you sent with that number four to start the subject line. And for the first time in forever, your email stood out to them. And they actually, wait, I'm still on this list. They opened it up and you know what, your product, your service, your promotion, your thing, you're no longer a fit for that recipient. And they unsubscribed. They didn't unsubscribe because you sent them one more email or because they didn't like your whatever. They unsubscribed because they actually opened it. For the first time in a long time, you did something good. You actually stood out. And unsubscribes do not hurt your deliverability. They do not cause you to go to the junk folder or spam folder. It's 100% myth that anybody thinks that they do. And in order for people to be into you, in order to turn somebody on, you have to also turn some people off. If you're trying to be for everybody, then you're for nobody. And so I think unsubscribes are a great thing.

A (9:17)

And that seems to be consistent. I mean, it's been like that for the last, I don't know, umpteen years, it seems. So that seems consistent. All right, so I'm on your website right now, subject line.com, and like I said, it's cool. Everyone should check it out. You've got this free. Enter your subject line here and then evaluate. And here's my question for you though. What's a way that maybe you could use this to evaluate your subject line in a way that most people might not think? Because I imagine that you've probably used this, you know, hundreds of thousands of different ways. And I wonder if you've got any special tricks on how to use this.

B (9:51)

Yeah, you know, in general, it's a starter. It's an idea starter. Okay. So if you notice when you go to subjectline.com, it is a free tool. It doesn't ask you anything. It doesn't say, hey, who are you promoting to? Is this for a business offer, consumer offer? It doesn't ask you any of that. So what it gives you back is kind of the don't screw this up completely and think about these things, right? And it's kind of like an idea starter for your subject line that in general, don't just gloss over it, right? Try different tactics in your subject line all the time. And then the mistakes that people make is, you know, the idea of confirmation bias that you're gonna make. Okay, we're gonna try sticking an emoji in the subject line. We've never done that before. Even though it's totally off brand, we're gonna try it. Great. We do it. And it works well. And you're like, oh, my goodness, it works so well. Now you're doing that every single time, blah, blah, blah. Because it works so well. That's the worst thing you do in any kind of marketing. What you want to have, whether it's your social posts, your email subject lines, whatever you do, you need an arsenal of tactics that you're rotating through. Because if you do the same tactic every single time, it won't work, right. It's kind of the same idea with email templates, which always drive me bananas. You know, a lot of companies, law firms, whatever, right? They're like, we, we made a new email template. All of our emails now look like this. And we hit send and we sent it out. It did so much better than what we used to send out. I was like, wow, this template's wildly good. Which is ridiculous. What happened was you did something different, right? It stood out a little bit. It wasn't the same garbage you've always been doing, but they think, oh, it worked because it's a great template. No, which is why you need to have many different formats of your emails and many different formats of your social posts. And you gotta mix it up to actually not become wallpaper. So that's the same thing with subject lines. You need to have an arsenal. So the site gives you a lot of ideas of how to kind of build that arsenal.

A (11:36)

I love that. I've seen where you said that emotion drives clicks more than logic. And I wonder how can you trigger emotion in such a short amount of time with. With the email subject line? Cause that that seems like it could be really difficult.

B (11:50)

Well, let's talk about clicks for a second. Cause you bring it up, and I think it's one of the most missed over opportunities in email marketing and also for social posts as well. So somebody opens up the email, right? And let's say you want them to attend a webinar or download a piece of content or something, right? So what do we all do? And let's just say it was a webinar. You promoted this webinar. Here's the speakers, whatever, here's the topic. And then you have a button, a rectangular button, a call to action button in that email. And that button, I would say 95% of the time is going to say the word reg, because that's what you want them to do. You want them to register. But that couldn't be more of a turnoff. In general, when you talk about how do you get people to click, you want to get in their mindset. The easiest thing you could do in your email marketing or on your social posts or anywhere else is to write things in first person. So instead of register, it would say, yes, count me in. Instead of register, it would say, save my spot. When you actually write things in first person on your call to action buttons, those long rectangular buttons we see click through, rates rise by over 25%. And you should do this on your landing pages, you should do this on your social posts. Reframe everything into the person's mindset, not what you want them to do. And these are the little things. When people say, oh, email doesn't work for us, email doesn't work for you because you're not playing the game. There's no one thing you're going to do that's going to crush it. There's a lot of these little things that add up to totally change the outcome.

A (13:11)

It's funny, when you said that, I instantly started thinking about emails that I thought were great emails and then emails that maybe I've drafted that were not so great, that were not in the, in the first person. So that's, I think that's a great one. What I find is something that's pretty interesting. It seems like one of your biggest crusades is against vanity metrics. So when you, we talk about what, what some of the vanity metrics are when it comes to email.

B (13:33)

You know, ironically, one of the biggest vanity metrics that everybody says is useless, I don't think is useless, which is your open rate. Okay, So a lot of people in the marketing sphere say your email open rate, your percentage of people that open up an email is meaningless. And they say that because what it means is let's say you have an email list of 100,000 people. You send it out and your tracking report says you have a 32% open rate. And when you go in there, it says 32,000 out of the hundred thousand people on your list opened it up. Now in the marketing world, everyone says open rates Meaningless because there's all these bots out there. Apple now automatically shows, opens and inflates things. There's all these things that are causing your open rate to be not real. And that is 100% accurate. Your open rate, when you go into any platform, you should know that that is not a real number at all. Okay? Because of all everything I just laid out. But when people say open rates irrelevant, because I think it's the stupidest thing of all time because it is directionally really important. So let's say you're listening to this episode. You're like, all right, I'm going to go ahead. I'm going to try to use that number at the start of the subject line. I'm going to do an a B test. 50,000 will get one with a number. 50,000 won't. All right? And then you go into your tracking port after you hit send, and the one that had a number subject line had a 40% open rate. The one that didn't had a 20% open rate. Now what that means is directionally, you know that the one with the number crushed it and it did better. And it's almost like a Gallup survey on your marketing tactic. So it's really important to understand the metrics that you are looking at that are not absolute metrics and maybe directional metrics like your open rate, right? Because, you know, sometimes you, you'll get confused. You read this stuff like, don't even look at your open rate. It doesn't mean anything anymore. And that's nails on a chalkboard to me. It just, it's just not true.

A (15:19)

Let's say you were to do an A B test, like what you're talking about. You use, you know, regular subject line and you've got, you put your number at the beginning. After you've run that for one month or two months or three months, however long the duration is, would you then flip those and test them on the other audience? Or how do you normally do it?

B (15:36)

You would think we have more of a laboratory than we do. And I think that the hard part, when people listen to stuff like this, like, I don't have time to set this all up. I'm not that sophisticated. And here's the reality of it. It doesn't even matter. I mean, yes, you want to have it perfect and have all your metrics lined up and all the things and all, whatever, but the real game is just try something new, right? Every time you hit send on email, you should be testing something. That's it. You really can keep it that simple. And, you know, things continually change. So if you did something and you learned it today, six months from now, it won't hold. I'll give you an example. AI has really screwed things up in the world of email marketing a little bit because so much now we go to AI and say, hey, AI, what should my subject line be? What should the headline of my email be? What should it be? And then AI gives it back to us. You know, ChatGPT or Perplexity Claude, whatever you use and says, use this, right? And then we take that and we use it. And the problem is now, as recipients of all this stuff, there are now certain words and phrases that six months ago, a year ago, were fine. But now, because AI gives it back to everybody so much that us as people that receive this stuff, we immediately discount it because it's like wallpaper. I'll give you an example. Like the word unlock, the word discovery, the word learn, okay? These words used to be words that actually would generate engagement if you put them at start your subject line, because these were good words that allowed things to stand out. They're now among the most given back words at the start of a subject line that ChatGPT gives you back. Right? So if you go to Inbox now, you will see the word unlock, like, four zillion times. We're being told to unlock everything. It's ridiculous. And as recipients of this stuff, we are now tuning it out. So whatever you test now, okay, it may not work in six months, which is why you always have to be testing.

A (17:26)

I love it. That's great advice. I do want to. I want to give you a chance to. To push your guru 2025, and here's why. So our CEO, Becky Berhart, she found you because she listens to Amy Porterfield, and she attended because of Amy Porterfield's podcast. She attended eventtastic, and she said it is the. It was by far the best virtual event she has ever been to. And so I think that's awesome. And so do you want to talk about Guru 2025? Because that's in November. It's actually coming up in a week or two, about 10 days or so. So will you talk about that really quick?

B (18:00)

Yeah, I appreciate bringing that up. Yeah. You know, in general, I think that the idea of virtual events got stained coming out of COVID so we tried to reinvent them a little bit. So we have a number of events throughout the year, and one of our biggest events called Guru Conference, it's free and it's virtual. You can register for it@guruconference.com we'll have over 25,000 people there. It's a two day event all about email marketing. We actually have Nicole Kidman speaking, Amy Porterfield speaking again. And we do crazy stuff. We have Lance Bass from NSYNC judging a dance contest. Flavor Flav will be there. And what we do, and I encourage this for everybody, is, you know, you can make virtual events fun and different. And then the other big thing that we do is we don't do on demand in general, whether it's for your webinars, a big virtual event, whatever you do, I think we have to stop treating our content like Netflix, like it's always available. So what we do is we do something called Earned on demand, where if you don't show up for at least an hour, you can't get the on demand link at all. And our show up rates are over 70% because of that. So when you think about if somebody's going to put on a webinar out there or something, don't just play the same playbook that everybody else is doing because when people actually show up, your pipeline goes higher, your conversions go higher. And so we've tried to reimagine that. So Guru Conference, if you want to see a wild virtual event, it's, it's worth trying out.

A (19:15)

What a great idea. We should do something very similar with Max Lacon because, you know, like on day two, there's always the attrition where, you know, every single conference, people leave. I. That's a great idea. That's really good. All right, so back to, back to some questions. I am curious. Is there an email that you can remember that you opened recently from some other company or someone else that you're like, you're really impressed with, and if so, why?

B (19:37)

I'll tell you the tactic that I have stolen that I saw from a couple of different companies that's working so well, which is this idea of white space in your inbox. So when you go to your inbox, everyone's always focused on what should I write a subject line, when should I send out all the things. But what we don't think about enough is white space. What I mean by that is you have your subject line and then you have your pre header. The pre header is that second subject line, kind of that gray text right after the subject line. Right. And I saw somebody do this and now we do it a lot, which is if you actually send out your email with no pre header and your subject line is three words or less. So now you have a really short subject line, right? Let's say your subject line just said must knows. And then you have no pre header. What happens is your email visually stands out massively because there's so much white space after that very short subject line. And when we've been doing this, we're seeing our open rates on those emails go up by over 25% just by not doing something. Keeping yourself subject line crazy short and no pre header. So it's cool to think about your marketing from a visual perspective and not just what is it saying.

A (20:43)

What an incredible idea. That is fantastic. Reminds me whenever I infusionsoft, it wasn't for the same purpose, but we would take so that people wouldn't get to this unsubscribe button. We'd create a bunch of white space at the bottom of the email. Definitely a different purpose, but of something we would do for sure.

B (21:00)

I love infusionsoft. You're going back old school. Before they were keep. Before they were thrive.

A (21:04)

Yeah, went back back.

B (21:06)

We were.

A (21:06)

We. I was with keep and I think starting in 2011, so quite a ways. I think the big mistake they made was getting rid of the conference, changing to changing their name. I don't know how they're doing these days. It's. It's definitely is. It definitely is. I want to ask you about, because I know I don't have a whole lot of time with you and I want to make sure I get some of the stuff out. You talk about running holdout tests and can you talk about holdout tests?

B (21:27)

Yeah. So in general, it's hard to figure out if what you're doing, you know, is working. Right? Is it actually working? So one of the big things that we are big fans of are holdouts, right? So let's say you have a hundred thousand people in your database, okay? You take 10,000 of them, you put them off to the side, and they don't get any of your email marketing, they don't get any of your remarketing, they don't get any of anything that you're doing. All right? And then you measure what is the number of people in that holdout group, that 10% that are going into pipeline, that are turning into opportunities, that are doing whatever without them receiving none of the marketing pushes that you're doing. And what that will really show you is the actual value of your overall marketing. Because the reality of it is now attribution is a little bit of garbage. A lot of People think, oh, I ran this search ad, somebody clicked through, they converted, that is why they became a customer or whatever, an opportunity. And that's ridiculous. And then we assign value to that search ad that it did really well. You, it's silly because what really happened was that individual saw some emails a few months ago, they saw some social posts, they saw this, that, whatever, and then they were on Google and they were in market for what it is that you do and they saw your ad and they clicked on it. And then it's the surround sound that you've created from everything you've been doing. It's not that last touch attribution, which is where a lot of marketing budgets kind of go to fail. So by having a holdout group, it will give you a view on the totality of how your marketing is doing and you'll actually be able to sit in a meeting, say, listen, all this crap that we're doing, it's actually turning into a lot of business. Or it's not.

A (23:06)

I, I, I really like that because my problem with things like tech talk and Instagram and all that and I, I know that it works for some people, but the problem I see a lot of time is, is there is no, they can't connect it to actually getting cases. They just can't. I think that's interesting with the, with what you're talking about. That holdout test is that you can actually create some sort of a tighter connection between here's our marketing and here's our clients and all that. So I think that that's a really smart, you can't really do that with social media unless you're doing ads, which is just a different beast altogether.

B (23:37)

But here's why. No one's going to do it. Not a single listener on this show is going to actually do the hold up group. And I'll tell you why, because they're like, well, I need to market to everybody or else I'm going to go out of business. And that is where the conversation goes sideways.

A (23:50)

That's a really, so I think that's a good challenge. I would love, if anybody does run it, let me know and I will report back to Jay because I definitely would, I would love to hear someone do it. And actually I'll, I'll even see if I'll find a way to do it ourselves. I'll, I'll try to do with Maximum Lawyer. I'll, I'll, I'll have Becca get this thing. I don't deal with any of that stuff, so I'll talk to Beckett and see. See, we'll get that set up. But if you were going to choose just one metric to track for growth in 2026. All right, so in. And I wouldn't say for growth, for. For. When it comes to knowing whether or not your email marketing is working in 2026, what do you think that metric will be?

B (24:26)

I'm always focused on, is our database growing? Are we bringing on more of the right people? Right. So we define our icp, and then we're constantly looking at database growth of the right people, not just database growth overall. And the reason that we're always. That's a North Star for me is on an annualized basis, your email database will shrink by about 20% between emails that are bouncing and unsubscribes and whatever. And so if you don't have an active program that you are adding to your database, then over time, you have no database. So thinking about what is your ic, what is your target audience? And then what is your database growth? You know, month over month, year over year, but factoring in the people that are coming off your list, not just the net news, it's like the actual growth that to me is like, keeps me up at night.

A (25:12)

Well, if that keeps you up, it should keep all of us up as well. All right, I want to ask you about the, I guess, frequency when it comes to emails, because this is something I hear all the time. And I do. I. You may give me a lot of pushback on this. I do think it's different for attorneys that are sending out emails than, let's say you're like a. You're a marketer sending out emails. Because I think it's more expected. What do you think the frequency specifically for lawyers should be when it comes to sending out emails more?

B (25:39)

And I'll tell you why I say that. And a lot of people say that's ridiculous and blah, blah, blah. Here's the mistake that almost everybody makes. They like, oh, our emails aren't doing well. We're annoying people. We're sending out too much. We should send less. Well, that's horrible math, right? You send out less, you will get less business. That's how it goes. So here's the thing. First off, frequency is tied to relevancy. You need to stop just sending out. Hey, work with us, work with us, work with us. You need to send out things that have no agenda for you, right? Here's value. Here's a new change to this law. Here's something that's trending in your area, whatever content ungated, here you go and you send that out a lot. But the other mistake in terms of sending is people make this mistake and they say, oh, we send our emails out On Tuesday at 8am it's the best. That's when we have the highest open rate, click through rate. That's the day that we send. And that is ridiculous. And here's why. That may be the best time that it performs well. But for me, for example, I read a lot of my emails at night, like late at night. I also read my emails on Sundays, like kind of midday on Sundays, because this is the time that I have to really dig into emails. And so what you want to be doing is sending out more emails, but not consistently. You can keep that one day that you like that Tuesday, 8am but send your email, another email out on Thursday at 7pm Send another email out on Sundays at 4 4pm and what you want to make sure of is that you're not comparing them. You're not saying, oh well, Sundays at 4pm does worse than Tuesdays. No, what you're doing is you're reaching a different population within your database that consume emails at a different time. So you have to stop saying, oh, this one did better than this one. No, it's like real estate. It's another piece of real estate of when you get to send stuff out during the week. So think about your frequency differently and also think about your relevancy different. Differently.

A (27:30)

This, this is probably gonna be my last question, but I. Because it depends on what your answer is gonna be. I wonder if. Well, I just wonder if there are, if there's anything on the horizon that, that might, I wouldn't say disrupt email, but would it's. It's gonna upend it to a certain extent where maybe there's massive feature changes that Gmail might be integrating. I, I wonder if there's. If you're aware of anything on the horizon that might change email drastically.

B (27:53)

I think the biggest thing that's gonna happen, which probably happen the next three to six months is so ChatGPT just announced they have a new Atlas browser. So they have a browser that's going to compete directly with Chrome. Right? Free browser, the way you go on the Internet. So ChatGPT releases right now it's only available if you're a Mac user, but the next few weeks it's going to also be available if you're a Windows user. What does that do with email? So one of the functionalities within this Atlas Browser, which I think everyone's going to be using, is that if you have your inbox opened up, right, like within the, within the browser, you can easily tell the Atlas browser, hey, all the emails in my inbox that say the word guide, I want you to reply back to them and say, hey, here's your free guide. And by the way, why don't we set up a call and then you're gonna be able to tell the Atlas browser and like one keystroke just to do that. And why does that impact email marketing? Because I believe what we're heading towards is the promotional emails that, you know, you're sending out to get cases and all the different stuff to your database. Instead of saying click here and go to this website and sign up for blah blah blah, you're going to be sending out emails that say, hey, you want the new tip sheet on how to do blah blah blah, Just reply to this email with the word tip sheet and I'll get it right to you. Right. And then you'll be able to use ChatGPT's Atlas browser to instantly, without you doing anything, reply to all these messages. And the reason that has a lot more value is once you start to email back and forth to somebody, you're way further down the funnel than just somebody filling out a form on a website. So I think there's going to be a fundamental change to how we are corresponding and interacting with people because of the Atlas browser and what's coming.

A (29:29)

I couldn't agree more. I've had Atlas for six days. If you would ask me six days ago said you're probably crazy, but they've already added new free features. I was using it earlier today. It's. They've added on a lot of cool things in just six days. It's only going to be getting better. I would love to Comet. I think Comet, it's not as good as Atlas. I think it's better. So I think you're, you're completely right. I do want to just take the last few seconds just to make sure we plug subject line dot com. Anyone you want to test out your subject line or you want to get in touch with Jay, do that guru conference dot com. That's the conference you have coming up in November and then event tastic you have in June of next year, eventtastic.com which is just a great. Your websites are fantastic too.

B (30:10)

Oh, thanks. Appreciate that.

A (30:11)

The design's great, but if people want to get in touch with you, let's say they want to work with You. How could they get in touch with you?

B (30:16)

Yeah, you just go to my full name, Jay Schwedelson. Hard to spell, but if you figure it out, J Schweddelson.com that's where you'll find me. I have a podcast called do this, not that, which is just a lot of fire hose of rapid tips. So you can check that out and listen. This is awesome, man. I appreciate you having me on.

A (30:30)

Yeah, thanks for doing it. Really do appreciate it. I mean, I think I. It's one of those things where I told you before I could probably talk to you for three hours. So it's probably. It's probably best that we were kind of limited at time, but that was great. Really appreciate you doing this. And if anyone. If anybody, if you listen to this, you can tell Jay knows what the hell he's talking about. So check him out. Check out all of his. All of his events, all of his sites, listen to his podcast. But Jay, really do appreciate it. Thank you so much.

B (30:52)

Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

C (31:08)

If your firm feels one good decision away from a breakthrough, then this is for you. We're hosting our first mastermind of 2026 in Phoenix on February 26th and 27th, and it's two days designed to actually move your firm forward and grow who you are as a leader. Day one is a full day of hot seats where you break into groups and work through the real problems in your business. Day two is our wellness workshop, featuring sessions that help you boost your energy, lower stress, and think more clearly. We have Jocelyn and Aaron Freeman, host of a top 10 marriage podcast and master's in psychology, teaching relationship skills that you'll use at work and at home. A lunch and learn on habit formation with Tyson and more. View the full event details and grab your seat@maxwell events.com.