The Systems That Let This Lawyer Travel the World Full-Time

Summary

Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer

Episode: "The Systems That Let This Lawyer Travel the World Full-Time"

Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Sonia, Attorney & Business Owner
Date: July 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Tyson Mutrux and Sonia, a lawyer and entrepreneur who has structured her life and businesses to allow for full-time travel as a “digital nomad.” Sonia shares the systems and mindset shifts that enable her to run two remote companies while living out of a suitcase and exploring new destinations, all while maintaining her mental health, creativity, and business success. The discussion is rich with practical strategies for law firm owners and any entrepreneur interested in radical systems, efficiency, and lifestyle design.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Choosing the Nomadic Lifestyle

[01:19 - 02:32]

• Sonia put all her possessions in storage, embracing the digital nomad life.
• She prefers calling herself "untethered," joking that friends refer to her as their "fancy homeless friend."
• Recent travels include Ibiza, London, Scottsdale, Mexico, and New York.

Notable Quote:

"I put all my stuff in storage a few months ago and just untethered. So I just go wherever, stay however long, and then keep it moving. Be in a bag." — Sonia [01:34]

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2. Living Out of Hotels: The Art of Delegation

[02:43 - 04:34]

• Sonia prefers staying in hotels for efficiency: “done for you” factor—no housekeeping, chores, or errands.
• Major reduction in errands and shopping due to minimalist needs and mobility.
• Manages laundry mostly through hotel services, sometimes opting for laundromats or targeted Airbnb stays with washer/dryer.

Notable Quote:

“It's delegating in its highest form because I have stripped my life of housekeeping, chores, groceries...You magically don't have errands, which is amazing.” — Sonia [02:43]

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3. Extreme Minimalism & Systems Thinking

[04:34 - 07:40]

• Travels with only one bag (sometimes larger carry-on for longer trips).
• Runs two companies remotely while traveling.

Systems Examples:

• Uses a virtual mailbox (iPostal) for handling mail—can have items scanned, shredded, or discarded.
• Business and personal life highly systematized (e.g., shopping, logistics, travel).

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4. Documenting the Journey & Business Lessons

[05:38 - 07:14]

• Has been documenting her travels, considers vlogging or monthly recaps.
• Finds that removing the “mundane” (chores, routines) creates bandwidth for bigger thinking.
• Integrates business frameworks into her personal life (e.g., processes for packing, checklists).

Notable Quote:

“What if we just stripped our life of like the mundane and just dreamed big?” — Sonia [05:41]

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5. Personal & Professional Systems

[07:14 - 09:46]

• Travel and life are SOP’ed (standard operating procedures).
• Has customizable departure checklists on her phone for various types of trips—beach, work, ski, etc.
• Maintains double sets of essentials for ease (e.g., chargers, toiletries).

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6. Delegation, Team, and Productivity

[12:34 - 13:44]

• Employs a full-time executive assistant and a part-time personal assistant (California-based, used less now).
• Does most travel bookings herself using hotel and airline apps.
• Finds herself more productive and creative traveling; regular change of scenery keeps her inspired.

Notable Quote:

“I've never been more productive in my life, which is part of a hypothesis that I had.” — Sonia [13:44]

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7. Creativity ("Whimsy") and Pattern Interrupts

[13:55 - 34:40]

• Describes the creativity boost from constant change: “It’s like the concept of ‘if you’re stuck, go for a walk,’ but on steroids.”
• Actively seeks out “pattern interrupts” to avoid monotony—tries new coffee shops or different sides of town.
• Keeps a “dopamine menu” of small-to-big things she can do for happiness and stimulation.

Notable Quotes:

"Everyday whimsy, I'm like, let me try a new coffee shop. Let me get a...almond croissant...It takes you to a new side of town, take different turns." — Sonia [33:32] "Pattern interrupts...I'm a firm believer in, if you ever feel stuck in a rut, you're clearly never going to be in a rut because you never take the same path twice." — Host, Tyson Mutrux [34:03]

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8. Money, Minimalism, & Freedom

[15:24 - 17:12]

• Compares the cost of renting a luxury beachfront apartment ($4k/month) to living in hotels (more expensive, but offers extreme flexibility and amenities).
• Maximizes experiences over material items; prefers spending on travel and food over possessions.

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9. Handling Solitude & Social Needs

[18:52 - 24:19]

• Acknowledges solitude/loneliness as part of the lifestyle; requires being “truly alone” (no partner, no pets, no kids).
• However, travels often intersect with friends, conferences, and events—leads to more spontaneous adventures.
• Enjoys solo travel and relishes the ability to do whatever she wants without compromise.

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10. Mindset Shifts, Permanence, and Evolution

[24:19 - 32:54]

• Discusses the ability (and preference) to eschew permanency: “permanency is not my favorite.”
• Walks through her evolution from employee to entrepreneur, personal growth from anxious and reactive to Zen and patient.

Notable Quote:

“I don't know if anything changed. I think the real one just got to come out.” — Sonia [29:57]

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11. Dopamine Menu & Managing Device Use

[33:19 - 50:21]

• Dopamine menu includes activities of varying cost and times to provide joy (e.g., ice cream, booking a trip, massage).
• Struggles with phone dependence, as life and business are deeply app-driven.
• Uses analog tools (hotel pens and notepads), adds physical writing as a tech break, but digitizes as needed.

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12. Systemizing Law Firm and Education Business

[54:54 - 61:50]

• Sonia’s main businesses:
  • Law firm specializing in trademarks (can be operated globally with a US law license).
  • "4L Education" & lead product: "Two Weeks to Trademarks"—a course for attorneys to learn trademark law and run flexible, lucrative businesses.
• Course is regularly updated (“reteach” every other year), and alumni get lifetime access to live refreshes.
• Partners with the ABA for 41.5 hours of CLE credit in most states.

Notable Quote:

“It is truly a unicorn...You can be anywhere in the world physically with one bar...You can practice law on your own terms.” — Sonia [57:02]

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13. AI, Automation, and the Future of Work

[59:53 - 61:50]

• Emphasizes how AI and automation are transforming trademark practice and her courses.
• Systems are constantly evolving to be more efficient, freeing even more time for flexibility and creativity.

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14. Reflection, Metrics, and Purpose

[43:24 - 45:04], [67:01 - 67:41]

• Gradually shifting her view on what success means—less about growth for growth’s sake, more about impact and freedom.
• Realizes that the true metric of her education business is the transformative impact on students’ lives, not just revenue.

Notable Quote:

“I was able to leave a really bad marriage because I'm financially independent because you taught me a practice area—that’s incredible.” — Sonia [45:04]

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15. Travel Obstacles & Adaptability

[68:33 - 69:35]

• Most challenges solvable with planning, a passport, cash, and openness to improvisation.
• Time zone management is the trickiest part when coordinating meetings across continents.

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16. Advice & Contact Information

[71:05 - 72:04]

• "Two Weeks to Trademarks" and 4L Education are open to attorneys interested in trademark law and flexible practice.
• Connect with Sonia on Instagram: @TrademarkLawyerLady
• Website: 4LEducation.com or TwoWeeksToTrademarks.com
• Upcoming live course dates and CLE credit info in show notes.

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Memorable Quotes

• On radical efficiency:
  “It’s delegating in its highest form...You magically don’t have errands, which is amazing.” — Sonia [02:43]

• On systems thinking:
  “I have SOP’ed the living daylights out of even my personal life.” — Sonia [07:40]

• On automating and optimizing:
  “My camera roll is a lot of, like, Marriott notepad ideas...It's a direct reflection.” — Sonia [54:24]

• On running a law firm from anywhere:
  “It is truly a unicorn...You can be anywhere in the world physically with one bar.” — Sonia [57:02]

• On personal growth:
  “I think the real one just got to come out.” — Sonia [29:57]

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Takeaways for Law Firm Owners/Entrepreneurs

• Systems create freedom: Radical delegation (in both life and work), checklists, and automation allow for mobility and focus on high-impact activities.
• Lean teams win: Hiring more isn’t always the answer; small, empowered teams can support greater flexibility and less overhead.
• Lifestyle design requires tradeoffs: Full nomad freedom often means less “permanency”—no home, partner, pets, or kids (at least for now).
• Creative routine: “Pattern interrupts” (changing environments, experiences) are key to staying fresh, motivated, and innovative.
• Purpose over growth: Redefine what success means—sometimes impact and freedom outweigh size and revenue.

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For More Details:

• Sonia’s flagship course: "Two Weeks to Trademarks" (with ABA CLE credit)
• Find her on Instagram: @TrademarkLawyerLady
• 4LEducation.com for all offerings

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Recommended Segment Timestamps:

• 01:19 — Launching into the nomad lifestyle
• 07:14 — Extreme systems: packing and checklists
• 13:44 — Productivity and creativity on the road
• 33:11 — Everyday “whimsy” and the dopamine menu
• 54:54 — How trademark law can be run globally/systemizing practice
• 59:53 — AI and automation in law
• 67:01 — In-person vs. online education
• 68:33 — Unexpected challenges and adapting on the go

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This episode is a must-listen for any lawyer or entrepreneur craving true lifestyle freedom—and a testament to what’s possible through relentless systemization, delegation, and an open mind.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Interviewer]

So what are you waiting for?

[Host]

To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseupmedia.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com maxlaw all right, Sonia,

[Interviewer]

my question is going to be this. You don't know where you're going to be next Tuesday. Um, and that's really interesting to be. Tell me why. You just dropped a bomb on me before we started and I'm so fascinated by this. So why do you not know where you're going to be next Tuesday?

[Sonia]

Well, the short answer is because a few months ago I put all my stuff in storage. So I'm officially, I think the kids are calling it a digital nomad is what I am. But yeah, I'm untethered is what I. I like. And my friends like to call me their fancy homeless friend because that's fits too. And it's because I put all my stuff in storage a few months ago and just untethered. So I just go wherever, stay however long, and then keep it moving. Be in a bag.

[Interviewer]

Where were you before this?

[Sonia]

Ibiza.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

For a week.

[Interviewer]

So you from flew from Ibiza for a week.

[Sonia]

Correct.

[Interviewer]

To where? And then to Chicago.

[Sonia]

Before Ibiza, I was in London.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

Before London, I was in Scottsdale. So. So it's been a lot of us. Mostly I was in Mexico for a couple weeks. At some point during all this, I was in New York one or two times. Where else? I think us wise. That's pretty Much. It.

[Interviewer]

I think I texted you when you're in Scottsdale because I said, like, you're my favorite place.

[Sonia]

Yeah, that's.

[Interviewer]

I do really, like, I love Scottsdale now. Are you doing mostly hotels or Airbnbs? Mix of both. How are you doing that?

[Sonia]

I lean heavily toward hotels. I would say, like 90%. I just like the done for you factor. Like, it's delegating. Okay. So I have some business lessons in this that I didn't start out with, but it is delegating in its highest form because I have stripped my life of housekeeping, chores, groceries. Really, Because I get everything. If I get grocery, I get them delivered. Laundry, because towel service. You know, you get housekeeping in errands. You don't have any more errands when you don't have an apartment or a house. Like, you magically don't have errands, which is amazing. And if I do, I find a way to do them in the neighborhood I'm going to. I mean, if I have to go to the bank or something. It's really rare. My Amazon deliveries have cut way back because I don't need anything anymore. I have everything I need.

[Interviewer]

So your shopping's gone down.

[Sonia]

I mean, I was never really a huge shopper, if we're being honest. Like, that's not one of my vices. Traveling and experience. This has always been my bigger thing. Like, I'm much more quick to spend an astronomical amount on, like, an omakase or, like, a chef's special choice dinner thing than, you know, a fancy parachute. Like, you know, I have, like, a couple nice things, but that's really it.

[Interviewer]

Okay. I hadn't thought about the food part of this. The laundry makes sense.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. What about your personal laundry, though?

[Sonia]

I'll either send out for it or again, I mean, it's efficiency in its highest form. But because none of my clothes are really that expensive or fancy, there's mostly Amazon or, like, H m Zara. So, like, I have what I have. And then when it kind of gets to a point of, like, okay, it's getting to that ending point, I'll just leave in the hotel room and order more on Amazon. Or, like, go shopping at Zara and grab a few more things, go to Target. But in between, yes, like, pajamas and normal stuff, I'll send it out. Like, the hotel. Every hotel has had laundry service.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

If I really need to, I'll do a Laundromat. But it's been rare. But that's one of those few and far betweens where I'll do an Airbnb and make sure it has a washer dryer.

[Interviewer]

How much luggage do you have?

[Sonia]

I have one singular bag at the moment.

[Interviewer]

No way.

[Sonia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer]

How big is the bag?

[Sonia]

This one's a little larger because I was in. In Europe. But typically it's just a carry on and like a fairly large, like personal item looking thing. I can go for a while.

[Interviewer]

So you're running two companies.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

While traveling the world. This is very interesting when you say it like that.

[Sonia]

I'm like, dang. I guess I am. I just don't think it's in my mind, but when we say it out loud, it's like, whoa, that is kind of crazy.

[Interviewer]

Well, it's very impressive. Like, that's what I'm like, it's. It's extremely impressive. I. I'm just like, logistically, like, how do you deal with mail?

[Sonia]

I have a virtual mailbox, Earth class

[Interviewer]

mail, something like that.

[Sonia]

It's I postal. So they bring in everything and you get a notice when something comes in, they send you a picture of it and you have the option to just discard it if it's junk, open it and scan it, or open it, scan it, and then shred it if it's sensitive.

[Interviewer]

So that's very similar to how Earth classmail is. Yeah, yeah. So do you, like. Are you journaling about all this?

[Sonia]

I should be.

[Interviewer]

I'm documenting.

[Sonia]

I am documenting it. Yeah. I don't know what I'm going to do with all the footage yet. Like, there's so many options and ideas and I think so I'm three months into it at the time that we're recording this. And I think I have in my patience level maybe like another three to five months of it in me in terms of like, how long I want to do it. And I, for the first couple months, I was like, oh, I'm just living my life like this. Just. It seemed efficient. I was like, I'm barely home anyway. Might as well just mix that. Right? And I dreaded having to go home and like, get back into the routine of like, groceries and errands and whatever. And I was like, what if we just stripped our life of like the mundane and just dreamed big? And so I didn't think it was that crazy. But now I'm like, as I tell more people, they're like, you got to capture this in some way. You have to do something with it. So now I'm like, okay, I think I'm going to vlog it or do Some sort of like, maybe like one. Some like recap the month or recap. I think weekly is too much, but I probably.

[Interviewer]

Daily is not enough.

[Sonia]

Daily is not enough. Okay.

[Interviewer]

I really am. Like, when you drop this on me. I had zero plans to talk to you about this. Yeah, like, it's. It's a really fascinating thing. I do think there's. There are a lot of business lessons

[Sonia]

in this because so many.

[Interviewer]

You must have systemized everything when it comes to operations. Like the marketing is running itself, like the company's running itself. Both of them are running themselves. I know you said you're doing some work while you're on the road.

[Sonia]

Oh, lots, Tons.

[Interviewer]

Which I want to get into the creativity in a second too. Like, it's. It. It really shows that you've really optimized everything, which is really just fascinating to me how you've been able to do this. Like how. How personal can I get with these questions?

[Sonia]

Ask me literally anything. And I get so excited to share this side of things because I. Like I said, it's just so recent that I realized people would even find it interesting. And I've been making the connection with all the business lessons and I think it brought it to life for like, it came to fruition because I had such a business mindset. So, like, here's a really fun small micro example. But I have a. For years I've had departure checklists. So when I pack for a trip.

[Interviewer]

You're kidding me.

[Sonia]

This is so. I have soped living daylights out of even my personal life.

[Interviewer]

You should get there should be like, give this away for free. I should like capture people's email emails like, hey, get my departure checklist.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

So anytime I take a trip of any kind, there is a standard departure checklist. And it. It's everything from one to two sets of pajamas to. To this to that. Like the standard stuff you would need in any trip, which is in addition to stuff that stays packed already. Like a second toiletry bag which has doubles of everything that always, always lives in my carry on as it is. So there's a whole pile of things that are by default setting, if you will. Right. By default, we start out with a toiletry bag that's always kept up to date. So when I come. I guess it goes back to when I come home from a trip. I refill it before it even gets put away. So I restock. Q tips, buy another toothpaste if need be, refresh the floor. Just. It's a complete kit at all times for Everything I need to get ready, which is really. I feel like people think it's a lot. It's not.

[Interviewer]

We need to get checked for ocd.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

Extreme efficiency. So toiletry bag lives in there. We always have doubles of chargers, everything. And so when we pull out the carry on, that part's already done. And then we standardize pack for one to two pairs of pajamas. This the normal stuff. And then here's where it gets good. Then we toggle over to what is. What is the nature of this trip? Are we going to the beach? We open up a dropdown sunscreen, hat, flip flops, water protector, cell phone thing, you know, hat, whatever all the beachy thing is. And then that's any kind of beach tropical island vacation. If it's a work trip. Do you have business cards? I'm still old school, so I like business cards. Do you have a pair of business heels? Do you have dresses? Like, do you have a nicer purse? Not just like a. Whatever that you carry around town that's like non descript, like a nicer purse. Okay. Are you going to snow? Are we going skiing? Okay. So do we have a beanie? Do we have under layers? Do we have. And whenever I'm on a trip, God forbid that the list wasn't accurate, I go in there and I update it so that this doesn't happen. So it is truly op ed in terms of just even that.

[Interviewer]

Is this on your phone?

[Sonia]

Yeah, yeah, it's on my phone.

[Interviewer]

You. I don't. I don't know if I should ask about this.

[Sonia]

Ask anything.

[Interviewer]

Well, this is more about the name I'm about to use. Have you heard like the Jeffrey Epstein home? Like this, like home manual or whatever? Have you seen this? No, I'm not going to mention who gave it to me. Someone gave me a word document of his home manual.

[Sonia]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

And it really is fascinating. Like it obviously doesn't show anything about what he's accused of doing everything, but it's. It really is as detailed as what you're talking about. Like this is how you refer to Mr. Epstein. Like, it's really interesting. Whenever a guest is over, here's the things you should put on their pillow. Here's how to make the bed. It's really. Are you. Are you that detailed?

[Sonia]

No, not. No. I think that's like a layer that. I mean, I always look at necessity. Like, are we doing it? Is it. Does it serve a function or is it just because you have ocd or you have anxiety? But mine is definitely function related. It's to not forget anything. Because that is what I really dislike is to be in a situation where you need something and it makes you uncomfortable. Right. So like it's, you're in cold and you don't have the right layers or it's hot and you know, sunscreen or like that kind of stuff. But I, I also look at whether I'm going to the US like another city in the US versus internationally. I get far more stressed about international stuff. Oh, I can imagine the adapters and you know, you, you can't just go to doordash and. Well, so I don't know if people know this now, but like doordash, Uber Eats now covers retail. So you can order stuff from Target, cvs, Best Buy, you know, I've ordered chargers, tripods, whatever I need in the moment. So us I'm far less concerned about. But when I go international, I'm like, okay, you know, there's not going to be this whatever down the street. You hope you're relying on the little shop that the resort has or something like, or like in town. So that dictates a lot of it. But it's really not just not to forget anything. And I also have a, I have a mini departure checklist for when I leave a space. So like when I leave a hotel room or an Airbnb, it's not as long or detailed, but there's just certain things I don't want to forget. So for example, I always leave like a bunch of cash for housekeeping. And so that's on the departure checklist is to draw cash to make sure. And then we leave, you know, under the remote controller. That's like step one. We charge all the flight electronics before the night before. So like the boat you say, you say we.

[Interviewer]

Who's we?

[Sonia]

Me and I.

[Interviewer]

Okay. It's like, do you have like helping.

[Sonia]

I do have, I have a lot of help but they're not traveling with me. I'm not at that level yet. Right, yeah, that's that. We are working towards that.

[Interviewer]

That would be next year we'll have you back on 100%.

[Sonia]

That's a goal of mine.

[Interviewer]

That'd be amazing.

[Sonia]

I have, I have a full time executive assistant. I have a part time personal assistant in California, but I use her lesson less at the moment. But.

[Interviewer]

So who makes the travel plans?

[Sonia]

I'm involved in a majority of it, I would say. Yeah. Just because there's certain things that I don't follow the rules on. So, you know, when we talk about delegating and just not doing things that you don't need to be doing or want to be doing. I mean, there are certain things I still hold on to that, by definition, are too administrative, like booking travel. But I have all the apps on my phone for all the hotels that I use. I'm members of, like, all the major chains, all the airlines. I have all their apps. And I just find that I can. I don't really have a process for how I do it, and I think that's why. But I just. That's one thing. I just book on my own. All my cards are saved in the app, so it's so easy that I feel like it's not an issue. But other than that, I mean, I. I've delegated quite a lot. But, yeah, I mean, I've never been more productive in my life, which is part of a hypothesis that I had, because I'm someone who constantly would want to leave the house to. To get stuff done. I can never get anything done at home. Covid wasn't my nightmare because I was stuck at home. It was awful. Cause it was the same scenery every day, and I felt like I couldn't refresh, like, creativity. I couldn't think, because it's just the same setup every day.

[Interviewer]

Well, you said you think you're more creative now. And, like, they, like, talk about that part of it.

[Sonia]

Just the juices flow. And I. I think it's an expansion on this concept of, you know, if you're stuck, go for a walk. Or, like, why you get your best ideas in the shower or when you're driving conveniently when you have no way to capture it.

[Interviewer]

Sure. Yeah.

[Sonia]

Right. This is that. But on steroids.

[Host]

Right.

[Sonia]

You've left your entire setup indefinitely. And each day or every few days or whatever. I mean, my minimum at this point, I think, is like four to five days somewhere. I'm not changing locations every other day and checking in, checking out, because that's tiring. Right. There's a fine line between being fun and adventurous versus it being tired.

[Interviewer]

Wait, can you get better rates if you stay longer?

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

So that's Which I found out the fun way.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Well, what do you mean by that?

[Sonia]

I was ready to pay. I think at one Weston, I was ready to pay like, three something, because that's what I booked it at.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

And he was like, oh, you're staying for a while. And I was like, yeah, I have this and this and da, da, da. And he's like, well, he's like, art every day past seven nights or six nights is 189.

[Interviewer]

What?

[Sonia]

And I was like, really? And he was like, yeah. He's like, I'll just apply it to your whole stay. I was like, wow, thanks. That's amazing. So that was a nice surprise. So now I will talk to the hotel and be like, okay, if I'm almost at the threshold, why not just tip it over by a day and then you get, you know, the whole thing. But yeah, I mean, when you're not paying. A lot of people have, have commented on this, like, look, if you're not paying rent and if you're not paying. Because I'm famously. I don't believe in homeownership for myself.

[Interviewer]

Oh, interesting.

[Sonia]

Yeah. Okay, we could talk about again, it's more delegation and efficiency. I go to the app, they fix it. They do. It's easy, seamless. There's no contractors, there's no projects, there's no pipes bursting in the middle of the night. And now that it's the extreme level of like delegation for me. But when you're not paying rent, when you're not paying utilities, people are like, oh, that must be. I'm like, this wasn't like a money saving venture. Yes, it does turn around in the sense of whatever you're. Those however many thousands of dollars a month you're not paying can go toward. But I mean, living in hotels is far more expensive than any rent.

[Interviewer]

I mean, it's gotta be really expensive.

[Sonia]

Yeah, I was paying a lot to live by the beach in California. A lot. And I'm happy to share numbers because I think that's part of the tell

[Interviewer]

me what it's cost to live by the beach. Renting versus, like staying in a hotel wherever the hell you want to stay.

[Sonia]

I mean, they're not even in the same financial bracket. Like, so just in full transparency, I was paying about four grand a month for my one bedroom on the beach. That's why I know I'm like, depending on where, where you're tuning in from. This might be as shocking revelation, but I was living in a really high end, luxurious beach community right on the water. As in where you're sitting directly behind you, that plant is the water. And I could see it from the complex.

[Interviewer]

That's worth.

[Sonia]

I mean, the amenities were top notch. Like, you know, it's. It was beautiful. Gym, hot tub, huge pool, cabanas, workspace, co working space, just all the things. But also in a beach community with tons of great people and just a great environment and you're in a beach Town. So there's just lots to do all the time.

[Interviewer]

Ever pinch yourself?

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like, I mean, I really do hope you kind of like, do you do. Soak it in. Be like, oh my gosh. I'm like, I'm living the dream that I wanted to live.

[Sonia]

Is surreal. Sometimes it is surreal and I feel like I've had to really sit and pause and be like, do you realize that you've already knocked your whole. Like, up till now it's been a bucket list. So now what do you call it?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

Because I've done so many cool things in my travels that are bucket list. And then the act of traveling as a lifestyle at the moment is a bucket list thing. Owning your own law firm by itself is a bucket list accomplishment kind of thing. Doing it again and then hitting the same revenue, you know, similar. Same revenue numbers in a second business. I proved to myself, wow, you're not like just like a one time got lucky kind of thing and all this stuff combined. I'm like, whoa. But the crazy part is, day to day, I don't think of it that way. I think of it as I'm just carving my own path. And I just realized like, oh, I guess this is interesting as some people, which is why I'm probably not more active on social than as. As a lot of people are. Cause I'm like, does anybody find this interesting? But like I said now recently, people are asking so much. I'm like, oh, maybe I should.

[Interviewer]

Have you seen the. Those there's like people from Europe because the World Cup's in the US Right now. They're documenting their journeys around the country. And like, like, oh my gosh, the United States is amazing. You could do something very similar to like what you're doing around the world. That'd be really interesting.

[Sonia]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's also kind of hard to decide where all you want to. I mean, when you have this much white space, where all do you want to go? What do you want to do when you can do anything, literally. Yeah, I can go anywhere and do pretty much anything. How do you decide? It's kind of. It's overwhelming sometimes actually. It's like a lot of white space.

[Interviewer]

This might be a weird question, but, like, how do you get human interaction? Like you got. Or is it lonely?

[Sonia]

It can be. It definitely can be. I don't want it to be like a bed of roses or appear to be a bed of roses all the time. I think it can be. I've thought about this because by definition, in order to be able to do something like this, you have to be truly alone in life. You can't have a partner for this window. Right. I can't imagine anybody I've dated or would date that would be okay with this. And I wouldn't want to leave them. Right.

[Interviewer]

Like, you're doing what?

[Sonia]

Yeah, like you're leaving for, you know, and, and also by reverse, like you wouldn't want to if you're in a relationship where you're thriving and happy, you're like, no, I want to. Or I mean, you do it together if their, their career and life path allowed and they were into the idea. But by definition you have to not have a partner. No pets, because that's pretty tough. A lot of places are pet friendly and. But it's, it's pretty difficult.

[Interviewer]

Global travel especially.

[Sonia]

Yeah, that's, you know, I'm putting the pets through like time zones and stuff. So on the heels of that, kids, I've seen people do it, I've heard of people doing it, but I, for me, it's just not something I'm looking to do. So that's off. And so in order to do something like this at the level that you're doing it where you really are just truly free and you don't have to think about anything or anyone, you have to be alone, then you're alone. So that's the funny part about it is that you're alone, right? So you're doing a lot of these things. A lot of the logistical day to day is alone. But where I'm going usually has something or someone tied to it. So like I'll meet up friends or a lot of it's conferences. I mean, I flew in here to Chicago. I'm like, oh, I'm in Chicago for a week. So what else can I do? See some friends, you know, see some clients, book some dinners, like that kind of stuff. But now because I'm doing this, I get invited to so many more friend things because they're like, oh, well, we know you're wherever. So if you want to drop in on, you know, we're going to Cartagena, like, yeah, okay, I'll draw, I'll do that. I'll, I'll do this. So a lot of times that has created structure and social interaction. But yeah, I would say like you're not, you know, you're not boarding a flight with someone. Most of the time it's you, you're checking in, in and out of hotels by yourself.

[Interviewer]

I never thought about like you, like when you go to a city like people, especially if you let people like your friends know where you are. Like, you can go hang out with

[Sonia]

those people all the time. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Like when you're like in another country, like, I'm assuming you don't have a bunch of friends in other countries. Right.

[Sonia]

I mean, I have a lot of them in different places. So the international stuff recently has been more friends, us planning. So they're like, where are you looking to go? I'm like, do you want to jump in on it? So that's been a big reverse where, like, I'm thinking about doing this and this and it's an excuse for people to leave their, their routine now because they're like, I have this chance to go join Sonia on this crazy thing. She's like, Ibiza was my idea. So I've been wanting to go to Ibiza. I'm a big EDM house fan, which you would not think that's.

[Interviewer]

That's. You would never realize then this is.

[Sonia]

But yeah, I'm a big EDM head. I really, really enjoy festivals. I don't do drugs, just in case anyone's wondering.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

Yeah. And which is like the rave culture.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

Everyone assumes that everyone does drugs. I don't. So just.

[Interviewer]

So that's usually like dance with glow sticks.

[Sonia]

I think I just enjoy just like the out of brain, no words kind of experience. But I just have always resonated. So there was. So all summer. Most of the major EDM DJs for that summer have residencies just like in Vegas or anywhere else.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

So I found a week recently where every DJ that I've admired, loved, listened to, really enjoy has a residency. And so it was like, okay, so if we go for these days, Friday we get to see this person. Saturday we get to. And I, and I told some of my friends about it and they're like, can we go? And I was like, yeah, the more the merrier. I was. I was going to go anyway. So then that's how Ibiza came to be. And so like, we got to see. I mean, not just sort of like EDM centered people, but like, David, get a Calvin Harris. Like some of these really big DJs that you don't get to see often. So like that turned into this insane, epic trip that could have been boring.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

But friends jumped in on it. So now the next few I have people jumping in on or I'm. We're planning it together. They're like, oh, I want to go somewhere. Where haven't you been? Like, what's new for you, too. So that's been fun as well. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Let's see. You're in a place where you don't really know many people. Like, what do you. Like, do you sit in the hotel at night? Do you go out and walk around? Like, what do you do?

[Sonia]

A mix.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

So I think one thing that is probably a given, although I didn't think about it, is that I. I really enjoy my own company. It's not to say that I don't need anyone or don't need friends. Like, I do get lonely, and I don't want it to be like this. Like I said, a bed of roses kind of vision. But default. I really enjoy my own company. Like, I don't think I'm that bad. And me, you know, we.

[Interviewer]

That's great.

[Sonia]

Myself and I. Yeah. Well, I'll go to. I'll go to dinner, sit at the bar, get a table, and. I never used to be like that. It took me time to get to that place where I was okay with it. I actually would enjoy it. But, yeah, solo travel is a. It's an MBA in life, in a sense of, like, figuring stuff out, entertaining yourself, but then you also get to do whatever you want. And that is the coolest thing of all, because when you travel with anybody else, by definition, you have input and another personality, Moods, temperaments, routines, how they're a morning person, I'm a night owl, blah, blah, blah. Just anything. And when you can just literally do whatever you want, it's so awesome. That part's great. That's probably the best part.

[Interviewer]

You said finding stuff out or finding something out. Like, are you. Are you on search for something? I wonder.

[Sonia]

Oh, I've been. I've asked. Somebody asked me that. I've been asked. That is, are you running from something? It's, like, very candid.

[Interviewer]

Those are two different questions.

[Sonia]

Oh, no. Okay. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So I was gonna joke about that. You're running from something.

[Sonia]

I don't.

[Interviewer]

I don't know if you are running from something. I don't think so, but maybe you are. I do wonder. Like. But are you in search of something, though?

[Sonia]

That's a good question. And. To which I don't necessarily have the answer. I. I think I wanted to see what it would be like just to try it. That's how I've lived a lot of my life. That's how the law firm started. That's how 4L education started. That's how two weeks of trademarks was born. It's just. I think of my life as just me going through like a fun house and just opening doors just to see. So like, I'll pull back a piece of a curtain, go, no, I think I'm okay. Or like open a door. And I'm like, yeah, let's see what's behind this door. And so the stuff that comes to life is like, I wanted to see some stuff is just like a curtain. I'm like, no, no, I'm good. Like having children for me, I got a glimpse of it through family, through friends. I have so many nieces and nephews. Not all blood related, but just, you know, that's. I feel like I'm a really good auntie. And I got enough of that sense where it was a personal choice to say, you know, I think that's not the right fit for me, the way that my lifestyle is structured or just what I want out of this lifetime. So I, you know, that's a door I wasn't willing to open. Mostly because it's also permanent. Yeah. So everything I do is not permanent. Like you can fix it and change it anytime.

[Interviewer]

Are you are. I do wonder how much you struggle with permanency then.

[Sonia]

Yeah, permanency is not my favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You don't want a house.

[Sonia]

You don't want a house. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You don't want kids. Which there's nothing wrong with any of that. I do find it interesting, like, I don't really plan get into this topic, but I do find it interesting that women are far less likely or not just women, like couples are far less likely to have kids these days. Do you find that really interesting?

[Sonia]

It is. And I don't mind if you want to get into it. I don't mind. I think it's fascinating.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

Because I feel like I ended up in that decision where like a window sort of was there and then it. It kind of like started to fade and close and I was like, oh, okay, so I don't have to worry about this anymore. It wasn't this dread and there also wasn't this pull ever where I felt this huge urge to do it. So it's not like I wanted to and I didn't get to for whatever reason. Like, I genuinely never felt this huge pull too. And I feel like we are in a time where a lot of people are maybe even more strongly deciding. Mine was kind of an eased into that decision. Like, oh, yeah, I guess I'm. It goes like a slow fade into it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

But a lot of people that I meet are like, oh, I'VE known for years. I've known since day one. And I'm like, wow, what that must be like to just have that conviction. Because I didn't have that.

[Interviewer]

I thought I assumed about anything in life. Like, I'm very. Like, whenever I meet someone that has, like, a really strong conviction one way or the other, it's very fascinating to me because, like, there's very few things in life that I have, like, just, like, black and white. Yes or no? It's really interesting to me. Like, is there anything like that for you? It sounds like no, but I do.

[Sonia]

No. And I'm the same way. I'm very similar because I think that you lose nuance when you're that convicted in something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

And there's no. I like to leave room for someone to teach me and say, well, have you thought about this? I'm like, no, that's a good point. Thank you. That's a good way of thinking about it. I'm gonna think about a different perspective. Like, I. Like, I call it being in sponge mode, but I like to hear and absorb, and that's how my world views and opinions on things have evolved and changed. So I'm very, very open. And so I'm very similar. Like, I don't think there's anything that I'm that strong about. But also, because most things in life, you can change your mind, and that's okay. Truly, in my mind, I think kids is the one thing. Name me anything else. Because even marriage, it's, you know, you don't want to. But, like, I got divorced. It was a long time ago, but I got divorced.

[Interviewer]

Wait, wait, really?

[Sonia]

It was a blip on the radar. Yeah. I got married to my high. My. I was about to say high school. My law school boyfriend ride out, and we were married for, like, a year and change. And he's a great guy. We're still friends to this day, but it just wasn't. At the time we called it, like, hey, this is probably not. It was mutual and very amicable.

[Interviewer]

So the guest right before you, she. She and I were talking. Her name is Janice. She was talking about how she wants to live her life where, like, people should be able to make a movie out of your life. And I totally think people could make a movie out of your life. This is crazy to think about Did. So the divorce thing, that kind of threw me off a little bit.

[Sonia]

Yeah. Sorry.

[Interviewer]

Were you.

[Sonia]

Over and over.

[Interviewer]

Did you have the business at the time? Any of the businesses? Okay, so it was like, it didn't Wasn't super complicated then with all that?

[Sonia]

The opposite. I mean, we had no pets, no mortgage, hardly any shared out nothing. It was the most straightforward. I mean, it was like breaking up with someone you're just dating. Really. Yeah, yeah. No, that. This was well before. Well, for sure before. Two weeks to Trademarks and 4L. This is well before the law firm I was in. My first one to two years of practice. I was like, trying to find a job, pass the bar, just find something. Just try and get. Get it together.

[Interviewer]

Life in transition.

[Sonia]

No, truly. I mean, I wouldn't. That person wouldn't recognize. Recognize me. And I. I feel bad for where she was at in reverse because I'm like. Like, that was rough.

[Interviewer]

What do you think in it really, for clarification? Is it three? Do you have three companies technically? Or is it. Okay, it's still two.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Okay. This, it's so still under two is plenty. Because I didn't know if the other one was under three. If there's three. Okay, so it's still under two.

[Sonia]

It's two.

[Interviewer]

All right. What do you, like, what is different about that, Sonia, compared to you? Like, now, like, I do wonder, like, what changed? And, like, because I think that that could be. It could illuminate things for people that maybe are in the same situation as the old Sonja.

[Sonia]

Oh, yeah. I think. I don't know if anything changed. I think the real one just got to come out. I think I'd always dreamed of entrepreneurship. I'd always dreamed of being a business owner. I thought I would do something like Sarah Blakely, like Spanx, where I would come up with a really cool concept or for a product. In my mind, it was a product, not even a service. Like, I was definitely going to create something and be. Be a founder, you know, in the traditional sense of like Shark Tank, and have something really cool. Even though Shark Tank, I don't think was that big back then. But I'd always had the urge to do something. And then I went through a few associate positions at the time and then just wasn't finding a fit really. But owning my own law firm was never the goal. It was just like, let's just start there because we don't want to work at a firm anymore. And most of the firms I worked at were wonderful. I had a couple of really bad bosses in the beginning, but the last couple firms, especially the one I left, have nothing but great things to say. It was really just the structure and just the environment of having to go to work every day were You a very good employee? No, I was awful. Awful.

[Interviewer]

I got this kind of stallion that would not be able to be like. You know what I mean? Like, not. Not a good employee. Not nothing. No. I feel like you're probably fantastic on your own and doing your own thing.

[Sonia]

I think there's an argument. Am I any good now? I don't know. I mean, that my work process would just make people's head hurt. Like, my creative process, how I think about things. I mean, the notes section of my phone, that's one thing. That's awesome. I can't, because it's just. I can give you an idea, but it's like. Like research Antarctica penguins, buy toothpaste. Add this to all in the same note. It's all the same. It's chaotic. But my brain is just. I really think that. Well, first of all, I think that people either over or under, diagnose themselves when it comes to ADHD and neurodivergency. I. I think that it took me a really long time to admit and recognize that I very much fall into that. And anyone listening who has an expertise might have figured this out from two minutes in. It's like, yeah, you think. You think you have adhd. Like, but now I've learned to roll with it. But my process is super confusing and I think chaotic to people. I. It's definitely not the kind of personality that fits well for being an employee. For sure. Adhd, because it was the same thing every day. Right. I think that's the mundane. I think if I need to think and perform at a certain level and be creative and come up with stuff, like, I. I just can't do it the same thing every day because then I lose motivation. I'm like, every day looks the same. So before I did this, like I said, I was traveling a lot, and then the days I would be home, I still had to add some whimsy. So there's a fine line, I think, between two val. Valid opinions of what we're talking about. Like, if you're looking in, one side is, do you struggle with permanency? Which is completely valid. And there's probably some. Something to that.

[Interviewer]

Yes. The other strong check mark.

[Sonia]

Yeah. Like, right. That's like, okay, that's. That's. That's what we're gathering here. The other end of it is equally interesting and valid, which is you got to add some whimsy and some fun to your mundane. You got to. Otherwise, this life gets boring to anybody.

[Interviewer]

Maybe the first time whimsy has ever Been used on the show.

[Host]

Really?

[Sonia]

That's like a mantra. It's a tenant of mine is. Is. We add whimsy.

[Interviewer]

So do you have a list of tenants, I wonder?

[Sonia]

I have something called a dopamine menu, but I'm not very good about following it. I did it as an exercise in part of a mastermind.

[Interviewer]

Once finish what you're saying and I want to hear about the dopamine menu. We'll go to that next.

[Sonia]

Involves no drugs, by the way. Just very clear. No alcohol either.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

I'm. I'm very, very minimal in terms of how much I drink also, so. And that's recent because I. I've enjoyed being a little bit healthier and just overall wellness. But anyway, so everyday whimsy, I'm like, let me try a new coffee shop. Let me get a. I was on an almond croissant kick for a while and so I made a list of all the ones in the area, like the best ones. And then I went and tried each one every day. Like every. Whenever I wanted to go get one, I'd be like, okay, let's try it. So it takes you to a new side of town, take different turns.

[Interviewer]

So they're pattern interrupts. I mean, you've created a bunch of pattern interrupts, which are. I'm a firm believer in, if you ever feel stuck in a rut, you're clearly never going to be in a rut because you never take the same path twice. It just. That's incredible. But your pattern interrupts, I think those are. It's a great idea. Like, does it ever get exhausting?

[Sonia]

Sure, of course. And then you just pause. That's the beauty of it is that

[Interviewer]

I'm not mean to you, though.

[Sonia]

For example, I'm here in Chicago. Logically, it would have been a day in, day out sort of thing, right? Two days max.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

I'm here for a week because I'm coming off of 11 days in Europe. Yeah, 12, something like that. Where there was like time changes and packing and all this stuff. So I was like, I just want to park it somewhere. I guess I'm parking it in Chicago because I can't believe I don't want to pack up again.

[Interviewer]

So we're full of energy when you came here. I can't believe it. Like, I asked you if you're exhausted, jet. Like, you're like, no, you're not. Like, will it hit you at certain points? Point where you'll just kind of crash probably after this?

[Sonia]

Yeah, I think there's some. Some Element of adrenaline.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

Where, like, you. You're looking forward to the thing, right? You're here for a reason. You have an occasion, you're excited. I've been looking forward to this ever since we booked it because I just, like, I love chatting.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Sonia]

Yeah. And so I think that does it. But also, I think I genuinely am doing everything I ever, ever, ever, ever dreamed of all in one shot. And I'm like, I. It's hard to be unhappy. It's not to say it doesn't happen. I do get unhappy. Like every normal person. It does get lonely. It gets tiring sometimes. But overall, like, net out. No. I mean, I'd. Even when I catch myself and there's moments where, like, there's a flight delay, this happened, that whatever. Like, something goes wrong. There's a scale. Right. Is it that big of a deal versus, oh, man, this is really going to be a. And I'm like. We try to zoom out. I'm like, is this really, though, like, the rest of everything is going so well and awesome. Because even in the confines of this big dream, if something goes wrong, like a flight's delayed, you're still getting to live in hotels and travel the world for your life. Is that so bad? You know what I mean? Like, it's.

[Interviewer]

Do you have to remind yourself of that or is it like an instant.

[Sonia]

It's an instant thing. It's ingrained now. And so my. I feel like I've really Zen out and my patience level is, like, super high.

[Interviewer]

Have you always been that way?

[Sonia]

No, no, no. Younger. Sonia was very reactive. Very. I think I had a bit of a hot temper when I was younger and very anxious.

[Interviewer]

That's interesting.

[Sonia]

But over the last couple years, but especially this last year, I have really. Ever since this came to fruition, I realized I could actually do it. And then it was the preparation of, you know, in furtherance of. Right. I've just been in a great state because it's. It's very similar to. You're buying a house, so you're starting to look at different houses. So that's so exciting. On Saturday, we're gonna go view 2, and then we're gonna put an offer in and. Let's see. And then we got an offer back and. Okay. So now we're gonna start packing our current house, like you have in furtherance of. Right. Like something. A project, a mission. I'm gonna. We're having a baby. So now we're, you know, we're doing the different checkups and. Oh, she's the size of a blueberry. Right. Or we're getting the nursery ready and we're shopping for her or him or in furtherance of something. And I just feel really lucky to live in a time where there's more on that menu than just the first couple things that we're just used to doing and hearing is ever since this became a possibility, the in furtherance of was so exciting. It was like, okay, so let me pick a storage unit and let me figure out how big of a space I need and let me pull out the stuff I'm going to need regularly versus back of the storage is the kitchen stuff, which I'm not going to be in a kitchen for. Right. And like, in furtherance of, like, everybody needs a project or something they're really excited about. Like, what are you excited about? Not what are you working on, but what are you excited about? Everybody needs that.

[Interviewer]

You write a book.

[Sonia]

I wrote one about trademarking a long time ago with another attorney friend of mine, but that's it.

[Interviewer]

I have the book title. Oh.

[Sonia]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay.

[Interviewer]

Please furtherance of. Just call it that.

[Sonia]

I love that.

[Interviewer]

And you can start writing the book tomorrow.

[Sonia]

I really could. It's all. It's here. Yeah. Especially because, like, the start of all this would baffle some people. Like my childhood. Just that alone. I think in a not positive way would be like, whoa, like, you came from that and now this is your world view. This is your outlook. Like, these are the things you're doing. And yeah. So if I to your question, just to complete it is if I look back on that, Sonia from the first couple of years versus now is like, wow, you really went for everything, didn't you? Like, I left no stone unturned. And I joke now because, like, when you're traveling, your surface area is wider, meaning more room for things to go. You know, like, we talk about, like, plain stuff or what. Who knows? Right. And I say this jokingly, but I'm like, I had a good run. I had a. I've already had a great run. Every day now is a bonus. But I've had a great. A really amazing, amazing run. I'm thrilled with it. So I'm like, it gets better.

[Interviewer]

How long ago did you start your first company?

[Sonia]

First company was.

[Interviewer]

Was it the law firm or.

[Sonia]

This year was year 11 and it was the law firm. And next year will be year 10 of two weeks of trademarks.

[Interviewer]

Okay. So when you first think about your first company and where you thought you were going to go and compare it to like where you are now? Have you exceeded that? Are you below that? Like, where are you? Right where you thought you were going to be?

[Sonia]

I think the metric, depending on the metric that we're going off of, the answer would be different.

[Interviewer]

So the happiness level.

[Sonia]

Oh, be beyond. Beyond. I. I thought I would be like, okay, like, okay, this will be fine. It was more of like, well, being an employee isn't really working that well, so we have to find something else.

[Interviewer]

Well, what metric would you want to use?

[Sonia]

I think that, I think that I thought I would maybe have a bigger team than I do and that was some unlearning that I had to do. So this kind of winds back to a lot of stuff that you teach and really talk about and stuff. And that we've all been just sort

[Interviewer]

of learning grained in us that.

[Sonia]

Yeah. That you have to have this and I had to unlearn that. It's like if you have a. I have a small but mighty lean team that. And it works, it works great. But like, why don't I have a team of like 52 employees?

[Interviewer]

Because you don't need them.

[Sonia]

If I did, would we be bigger? Like, would we be, you know, so there's that sometimes where I have to think about what we're taught and be like, does that apply or do I not need to learn that? Can I unlearn that?

[Interviewer]

Here's something I'll guarantee to you.

[Sonia]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Sonia wouldn't be going around the country, around the world for six months if she had 52 employees. There's zero chance of that happening.

[Sonia]

Yeah. Because management is its own beast.

[Interviewer]

I mean like they're like having your own kids. It's only have 52 of them and they're adults. Talk back. Yes.

[Sonia]

And opinions and personalities. And I've learned that leadership is something I'm very good at. Management, which I think is different. Way different, is not my favorite. And maybe that's why it's, you know, leaned out the other thing that I think so revenue wise, I mean, more than I ever imagined. And which is crazy because I think again, like I, before this whole six month stint, I was like, wow, I really don't need a lot. I mean I'm, I'm not a big shopper. I, I drive a used forerunner and I love it. I love it. I bought it that way. I bought it. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Forerunners are great.

[Sonia]

Yeah. I mean like I'm not an extravagant. Like, I think there's a lot of things where you would look at what I, how I am or Just me and stereotype certain things that are not true. And then there are certain things that are fit right in line. Right. So it's like, okay, yes, you must like nice hotels. You are right about that. Yeah. I don't like hostels. I don't like, you know, but I. So the revenue has been one of those, like I exceeded. But something else that I, I think is a bit of a question mark right now is what is the goal with 4L and the courses? Because law firm, I think you. The goal is to starts with revenue. It starts with then freeing up your time kind of neck and neck. And the real success metric that we have seen, I think in our communities is money's all fun and games, but how free are you? Right? How much free time do you have? That's the real success marker. But there isn't really any an end goal to an education business the way that there is to maybe a products business. So, for example, a lot of my clients in the trademark side, right. Because that's my law practice, they're all naming something, right? That's trademark law. So they're naming a product, a service, something. And for those that are products based, they have these amazing goals and things that they're doing. One of my clients got into Whole Foods and so now when I go to Whole Foods, I'm like, oh my gosh. Got in a whole year, you know. So when you start with their. Their product is like shelf, Shelf stable, lentils and beans and that are seasoned and stuff. Shout out to a dozen cousins. That's my.

[Interviewer]

I like a dozen cousins. Like, yeah, but I've had dozen cousins. Yeah, they've got really good. Yeah, that's great.

[Sonia]

I registered those trademarks.

[Interviewer]

No way. Yeah, I. I love.

[Sonia]

So cool. Yeah. So like when I see their founder passed away recently.

[Interviewer]

Oh my God.

[Sonia]

Yeah, he was my client, so they're no longer my clients. I think they've evolved and moved on. But yeah, it was sad to. That was one of the. That was the second time that's happened. Which no one prepares you for that.

[Interviewer]

No.

[Sonia]

But yeah. So I remember having these conversations in these consults or like, we want to get into Target. Like, that's our, you know, the big box stores. Like, that's our goal. I'm still trying to figure out the metric, how you measure a successful education business outside of revenue. And I'm learning that there are new metrics, which is, like I said, very new and a pleasant surprise for me. So, like when I get, I get a lot of messages, I Get a lot of comments, DMs, emails from the students. And by students, I mean attorneys. The attorneys that take my courses. And they're the most insane range of feedback. Like, I paid cash for my kids college tuition because of your course. I left a practice area that I hated and now I'm not suicidal anymore. Like that. Whoa, yeah, like those sorts of things. And so I'm making room for that metric because that's a big deal. And I just never thought of it like that. I was just like, well, of course your course is good. It has to be. Because you, you don't get to suck at anything. You don't get to fail at anything. Like, the standard I have for myself is everything you do must be good. So of course the course is good because you don't get to. You don't get that luxury. You don't get to fail at anything. And so when it, when people like the chorus, I'm like, to me, I'm just like, yeah, it's not an extra bonus point because it's like almost like the standard I have is like, you have to be good. But that is like, I didn't imagine that, right? I didn't imagine results. Like, I was able to leave a really bad marriage because I'm financially independent because you taught me a practice area that's incredible. Like things like that where people get really personal. I never imagined that.

[Interviewer]

Since you've been traveling, do you like, have you been reflecting on these stories?

[Sonia]

Yeah, yeah, a lot more so. I think that I'm the opposite in the way where when I'm traveling, I think far more clearly, whereas people are like, I was on a trip, it was really hectic. Now that I'm home, I can like think straight. So complete opposite for me, I think when I'm home, I get in the grind of the everydayness of laundry, cooking, meal prep. Like, and it's interesting because I. There's a side of me that really enjoys that. Like, I love hosting, I love cooking. I would always throw these great parties and girls nights where everything's like freshly made and whatever. Like, I took a lot of pride in that too. But the thinking straight and reflecting was something that I felt like I never could do at home. I think it's because. And again, maybe this resonates with someone, but I feel like it's the same reason why you would leave to go to a cafe to do anything. I feel like when you're sitting in your house, like, if I'm laying in bed and I tried it to journal, meditate. And I'm like, I can't turn my brain off because there's laundry that has to be switched from the washer to the dryer. And so once that ding goes off, like, right. And now I've changed it over. Why should put another load in? Might as well. Well, I should also run the dishwasher while I'm at it. And then, you know, that one closet really needs to be re. Like, I could just never turn my brain off because I felt like I had to keep optimizing my home. And it was really beautifully decorated. And maybe there's like, an element of perfectionism in there. I. Like, I can see your wheels turning. Yeah. What are we landing on? But when I am stripped of that, like this hotel room, I can. Yeah, I'm here to do certain things and meet and do stuff. But outside of that, I mean, my normal job stuff, that's on my phone or on my computer. But outside of that, there's a lot of white, free space when you're sitting at an airport with nothing to do and your flight's delayed. So I'm always typically really early to the airport. And then also, you have more time now, and you're just like, okay, well, I don't want. Really want to work or I don't need to do anything right now. Like, free white space, journaling, meditating, it all becomes so crystal clear. And that's been so much of a reflecting process the last few months in this.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm very interested at the idea about. It's like, very freeing to not have. It didn't really click until you said the thing about the. The dishwasher and the laundry and, like, rotating laundry and all that.

[Sonia]

It's.

[Interviewer]

It completely makes sense because, like, you're completely, like, freed from all of that and you're doing it in other ways, but, like, you're not doing it like, you're just giving it to somebody else to do.

[Sonia]

Like, that's getting done.

[Interviewer]

That is a really interesting thing. And, like, if you can really kind of apply that to all aspects of your life, that's really. It's really interesting. I want to get to the dopamine list.

[Sonia]

Yeah, I want to hear. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. What that is. And then I want. I want to get to some other things too, but dopamine menu. Like, what's the dopamine menu?

[Sonia]

Like, that's definitely not an original concept. And I didn't. Like I said it was an exercise in some mastermind that we went through, and I really enjoyed it. So it was basically just making a list of the matrix of time versus expense. But like, small, medium, high, extra large, extra small types of things where you want to add a little whimsy to your day or you just want to get. Get out of your rut. You know, that's number two or three. That's the record. Now I feel like, should I. Would it be fun to see how many times we can use it in this interview?

[Interviewer]

Absolutely, yes.

[Sonia]

It's a big part of my. My life view right now, so I'm not surprised. I love it organically, just like, coming up in my. In my speaking, but just adding, you know, so on the lowest level, in terms of I don't have a lot of time today. Like, life is crazy. Which is probably why you're not in a great mood, right? You have a lot going on, and maybe money's tight or maybe it's not, but it's like, okay, take a break and look up a coffee shop and just go get a sweet treat, right? Like, go to. Go get an ice cream. Go get a sweet treat, like, of any kind of.

[Interviewer]

So are you creating a list of things that are.

[Host]

That are.

[Interviewer]

Increase your dopamine? Is that what you're. Is that what you're doing?

[Sonia]

Essentially, yeah. And then on the higher scale, it's like, if you have more time and more money, book a trip or somewhere in the middle, book a massage for, like, later this week or make plans with a friend at a restaurant you've really been wanting to try so you have, like, something to look forward to, so how fast do you need it? Or, you know, but just having options to shake things up so that you don't feel like you're just working.

[Interviewer]

Don't you think, though, like, people get too much dopamine these days?

[Sonia]

I think from scrolling they do. But when you're. When you're fed just one source, of course it's gonna max out. Yeah. I mean, and scrolling is so bad for us on so many levels. I've really, really been working on not being on my phone as much.

[Interviewer]

How good of a job are you doing?

[Sonia]

Decent. You know, the tricky thing is that you need your phone for everything. Like, you can't.

[Interviewer]

Everything.

[Sonia]

You can't even check into your hotel room. So now I do these exercises. We're like, okay, what if, you know, for the duration of this Uber ride, we don't look at our phone just for. Just for. And it's like, okay, well, I have to look at it to See how far we are. I have to look at it to see or text my friend and say, I'm on the way. Right. Like I did to you. It's like, you can't they make it so necessary now to use your phone for everything? You can't order a pizza without downloading the app. Don't get me started on that. That's like, you're just. Everything requires a cookie and a password, and I can log in. It's just like, a lot, but in. I guess I'm trading some of these things. In favor or. Yeah, in favor of not being on the phone.

[Interviewer]

Do you watch movies whenever you're in the hotel room or anything? Nothing.

[Sonia]

I am really bad at TV and movies. I have not seen any. Hardly anything. Like, hardly anything. Rarely will I watch a show. I was really good at one point for a season of. Of Life, of, like, Love is Blind and some of these, like, really stupid reality shows. That's where I would have, like, a lot of the girls nights and, like, hosting and stuff. Yeah, we made, like, a friends group out of it. So, like, be like Sonia's place for the season premiere season finale. And, you know, I would always, like, cook or order or do whatever, but I'm really, really not interested. I just don't get anything out of TV and movies. It doesn't do it. It doesn't spark joy.

[Interviewer]

So I watched a play movie on the plane yesterday, and last night we finished it. Last night was. I don't know if you've seen this movie. It's with Sam Rockwell. It's good. It's weird name. Good luck, have fun, don't die. And it's the whole premise. It really comes down to, like, everyone's stuck to their phones and, like, it, like, AI has taken over. It's really interesting, but it's. You do walk around. And I like to do this thing where I've told the story on the show before. I'll make it quick. We were in Scottsdale, coming down Scottsdale Mountain. This is four or five years ago. And this guy, he says, good to see you. And it just blew our mind because, like, for, I don't know, next hour, we're talking to each other, like, do we know that guy? Who was that guy? He was like, just, hey, good to see you. It was like, good to see you. I didn't know that guy just walked like he was in her life for a second and out of our life. Good to see you. So I was like, we kind of had this play this game for A little bit where, like, we'll, like, walk around in public and try to find people to say, good to see you.

[Sonia]

I love that.

[Interviewer]

But when you do it, it's hard to get people because they're looking down at their phones. So when we leave here, I want you to try this. If it's not raining, it's been storming. But try to. Try to say good to see you to someone. You have to get them when they're walking by.

[Sonia]

Okay.

[Interviewer]

Because then they can't ask you, how do I know each other? How do we know each other? Yeah, you got to, like, just catch them. So, like, next thing you know, like, they're just an hour later and wondering, like, how they know you.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So. But it's. It's. It's actually far more challenging because people are looking down their phones. It really is. So I'm glad that you're trying to do better about it. I. I've got to do. I've not been doing better. I've got to do better at it, though.

[Sonia]

It's. It is not easy. And especially when you own your own business or businesses, plural. Like, it. Again, by nature of checking on things, working. And it's not even. Like, I don't even. I don't think either of us is necessarily like a workaholic in the sense where we want to all the time. It's a need. So you just have to get back to people.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

And so I was joking with another law firm owner friend of mine, and, you know, we have these text threads and stuff, because only we get it right. If you're not. If you're not in that role, you really don't get it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, you don't.

[Sonia]

And we were joking about how either you're the one doing the work, which most of us are not anymore because we've learned the art of delegation. Then you're answering the questions of the people who are. And. And you cannot be that bottleneck either, where just because you want to be off for the day, it's like, I just don't want to do any work. I just want to turn my brain off. Great. Well, 16 things are going to get held up. But the luxury that you wanted to take. So it's like, would you rather just knock out all those questions and then go about your day? So, yeah, staying truly unplugged, I think, is a tough one, but I think you can have longer periods. So, like, I will sit down, I'll answer a bunch of people, and then I'll just put it Away or, like, walk away from it or just something where I'm not on there. I do a lot more hand writing and notepad stuff now in furtherance of not trying to be on the phone, which is tricky because. But then I'll take a picture of it and have AI like, you know, transcribe it so, you know, you find ways around it. But again, that's a. It's a different avenue of creative flow. So I get great ideas, just me and a piece of paper. And it's like, again, you have to be a bit trim with what you pack in a lifestyle like mine. Like, I don't have the luxury of, like, lots of pens and notebooks and stuff. So what I found is that every hotel room has a pen and a notepad usually, or they'll give you one. So I have a lot take a

[Interviewer]

picture of everything that you take mine.

[Sonia]

My camera roll is a lot of, like, Marriott notepad ideas and then Hilton notepad idea. It just. It's like a little. It's a direct reflection.

[Interviewer]

I would love to see a picture of your camera roll now just to go through and say, like, what the hell were you thinking there? Could you imagine just, like, giving your phone to somebody? Like, what was that? Why did you take a screenshot of that?

[Sonia]

That's like one of those, like, please throw it in the ocean.

[Interviewer]

You know, at some point you will die, right? If someone has access to your phone, they might. They're probably just gonna go through our phones and be like, what the hell were you?

[Sonia]

Like, what was going on?

[Interviewer]

What was all this?

[Sonia]

What was her thought process? But it. It's like a. In that sense, I think of myself as, like, this, like, crazy, like, writer, author, where, like, my processes vary. But I've come up with the coolest ideas. And they're not even big, huge ideas for, like, another course necessarily. I think that's what people think about when we think creative flow and. And really deep work. I mean, I've come up with, like, changing three words in a tagline or, like, a message of, like, how I handle something, how I love it. Just little tweaks that, again, make huge differences, right? Just messaging or, like, for example. I mean, gosh, I could. There's so many. But here's a great example. So in terms of. I guess we. What I like about your podcast and your interviewing style is that you don't do the typical, like, what's your name? Introduce yourself bio. Like, it comes out as we talk, right? It's like, oh, what's for L. Oh, something about trademarking. So I guess this is a good time to just a quick background is that you know this. But so I have the law firm which I practice trademark law and then I have 4L education which is sort of a nudge to the three years of law school where we didn't learn how to practice law. And so 4L is my answer to that. And so we have a lot of courses, but the leading course is two weeks of trademarks. And it's for attorneys who either want to get better at practicing trademarks or learn it as a brand new practice area. And that's because it's a really lifestyle friendly practice area, which makes it a really great fit for a lot of people. So you only have to take one bar, right? Any bar. And you can practice nationwide. I mean there it is truly a unicorn in that way where it's, you can be anywhere in the world physically with one bar, your clients. Now you have a nationwide, global, even reach because every company, US or not, can file for a trademark. You need to be a U.S. licensed attorney to file trademarks. So foreign attorney, foreign companies need you

[Interviewer]

so you can have foreign. I didn't know that like, so foreign companies. I didn't even think about them filing trademarks. So you're, you have a global market,

[Sonia]

literally global market where you can be anywhere too. And again, it doesn't necessarily. I think I'm on the extreme end of living that sort of walking, that walk where like you can be literally any in the world. And I am right, I'm filing trademarks are everywhere. But on the complete other end, if you are a parent of a young child and you need flexibility, you need to have more say in when you work and you have a window of time, 30 minutes here, 45 minutes there, until nap time's over, until their kids soccer game is out. Like you can run a law practice in these little snippets because you don't have to work an 8, 10 hour structured day five days a week. You don't have to at all. Yeah, I have clients, I have attorneys in my program that work one, two days a week. And they just structure and cluster it and then you know, they're able to. So you can do it, practice law on your own terms. And it's insanely lucrative because every business needs a name and probably has a logo and probably has a tagline or a slogan. So it's the reach of it is insane. And especially when you can have clients everywhere. And so that's sort of the Setup. And so one of the things that came through for me in terms of messaging was I do a live reteach of the course every other summer. So really that's my pattern.

[Interviewer]

Great idea.

[Sonia]

Yeah. And so I've done a couple now the course is nine and a half years old. So next year we turn ten, which is crazy.

[Interviewer]

Congratulations.

[Sonia]

I'm thinking about throwing like a trademark.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Sonia]

Would you come?

[Interviewer]

Yes. If you invite me, I will come.

[Sonia]

Of course. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Then you gotta.

[Sonia]

I just think it would be Fun to celebrate 10 years of like, who knew this would happen off of a webinar? It started as a webinar.

[Interviewer]

You're making me want to like start a trademark law firm is what you're making me like. You're, you're, the cell is going to me later. Really good sell.

[Sonia]

So lucrative. And I, I, I, I just can't believe how much stuff stacked in favor of this practice area that like, I wish I could take credit for. The one thing I can take credit for is being a loudmouth about it. Like, I think people have now heard about it many, many times. They're like, we get it, we get it. And I'm like, I will convert all of you because there's plenty of work to go around.

[Interviewer]

That's my question.

[Sonia]

The USPTO sees just short of, of one point something million a quarter or a year or something file. And that's just filings, but registrations. What do you mean short?

[Interviewer]

What do you mean?

[Sonia]

Like one point something million? I think applications filed.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Sonia]

Yeah, maybe more. It might be, it might be more than that. But they register another 800 and something thousand a year. I just checked the, this is the kind of stuff I just checked. It's a publicly available dashboard, by the way. Uspto, if you Google like trademark dashboard, uspto, they show you year to date, quarter to date in comparison to last year's filings. And they're just going up and up and up because entrepreneurship is an all time high. It's been getting more and more popular because people have their side hustle, they have their this, the thing they do on their weekends, their food truck, their consulting business. So everything needs a name and you

[Interviewer]

can fully automate it, right?

[Sonia]

Oh, it's so process friendly, so system

[Interviewer]

friendly, like AI and everything too.

[Sonia]

AI is huge now. And so this is a reteach year and you just actually stumbled onto the breakthrough that I had, which is so again, I have my law firm. It's definitely not as high powered as it once was. Just because, you know, I hit burnout trying to do both. And, you know, that's. It was a lot. So I was like, okay, let me take a step, slight step back in favor of trying to get this one where it can, the potential can go. And so I reteach it every other year. And so because I have a law practice doing what I teach, I'm kind of like boots on the ground all the time, which is why I won't close it. I love still, I still do consults. Again, not as many. I still file marks. Not as many. I still do office actions. Not as many. Because I want to be current in all ways. And AI has been such a great test of that. And so even for my own practice, I'm optimizing, learning quad, developing skills and projects and setting up the law firm brain and creating agents and doing all these little, little minion things, right?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

And I'm like, there. This needs to be a huge part of the reteach. And so now, like this summer, we're doing a live version of the class again. And I, AI is all over it.

[Interviewer]

Is it in person or is it remote?

[Sonia]

It's on zoom.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sonia]

Yeah, it's on zoom. And so I teach it live. And so it's an opportunity for one for anyone who's been looking at the course to say, oh, why wouldn't I want to learn live? As opposed to self study? So once we record it, we upload all the mod, every module that night. So there's a schedule of it actually goes on for three and a half to four weeks. So we have a joke that it became one month to trademarks. And that is because while you can Watch, it's only 17 modules, but while you can watch it in two weeks, if you double up. Right. In some days, sure. Putting attorneys that are brand new through this material is. It's very rigorous. And you know, their attorneys, they have probably law practices or jobs and things that they're trying to untangle themselves out

[Interviewer]

of, which then you take a trip, vacation.

[Sonia]

So we take a while, I take my time to teach it, we stretch it out, but once we finish each session that night, it's uploaded. And so then it becomes self study for the years in between. Right. So it's always ongoing. And so this is a reteach summer and we always make a big thing out of it. And so if people want to enroll and it's an excuse for them to learn live, okay, great, why not? But here is something that I'm really proud of and I have never seen this in any course, any webinar as loudly. And maybe it's just not talked about. So if so, I stand corrected. But this was a huge metric win for which there's not a metric. We were just talking about that. Which is. This blows my mind. Okay, so we have a little over a thousand something attorneys that have gone through the program.

[Interviewer]

Nice. That's really cool.

[Sonia]

Yeah. And hundreds and thousands of more that have taken any other course, but specifically two weeks to trademarks. Over a thousand now. Maybe in the neighborhood of like 1100. I don't remember. Weirdly, I'm not good at numbers to that dial in. Like, I. I don't check exactly how many all that often, but I have an idea. So that means that every time we do a reteach, there's just that many more people that have taken it. Right. So, like, last reteach was summer 2024. Our numbers were different. And in that timeframe, people have enrolled and watched it and watched it. The number of alumni, meaning former students, that email me on a regular basis when it's leading up to reteach season is half my inbox.

[Interviewer]

Really?

[Sonia]

I don't want to miss the reteach dates. Did I miss it? Can I please join? It's because I have a lifetime promise that you get lifetime access to every refresh, every reteach. And it's.

[Interviewer]

I was going to ask. I was going to ask you if you charge again for the re.

[Sonia]

It's free. It's completely free. And so one thing that, again, I'm also really proud of, but I don't want to take away from this one, because I'm not done, is that we have a partnership with the American Bar association to provide CLE credit in most states.

[Interviewer]

Very nice.

[Sonia]

For it's about 41 1/2 hours of CLE credit.

[Interviewer]

That's. I mean, that. I don't know if it would pay for itself almost.

[Sonia]

Oh, absolutely.

[Interviewer]

I mean, that's incredible.

[Sonia]

Not if you think about how much it would cost to take those cle. But the thing is, we're not a CLE provider. To me, that's just like a little sprinkle of, like, you're welcome. I did my best. Like, I want to make it good. Just so good that, like, it hits all. Oh, and you get cle and, you know, refreshes are free. I think of myself as sort of like this. The. The concept of unreasonable hospitality.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Sonia]

That's just like, wow. So unreasonably generous and nice of you, but it's like, why not? We have the means to do it. Why not? Right? And a lot of these alumni have been rocking with me since 2017, where I was literally a girl with a webinar. So of course I'm going to make sure they get. But everybody gets free access to the reteaches. But so my students know now that every other year we're coming up on that and they know they get free access. But it's remarkable because you already know this stuff. You've watched the modules, you've taken the course. Some have taken it two, three iterations of it. Every single alumni that I talk to is just like, I just. I can't wait. I can't. Because I just know there's going to be something new, some little sprinkle, some nugget, something that you're gonna. Because it's not exactly scripted. Right. I teach the way I talk.

[Interviewer]

Sure.

[Sonia]

And so I'm like, oh, by the way, I just got this new tool or I just downloaded this. It's really a game changer. You should do this. And I'm so proud of that because why would attorneys who are so busy have so much to do? Thanks to the practice area I taught them. Right. They have a busy law firm now. Be so excited to take time out to watch stuff that 80, 85% of it they already have heard, right? Maybe 10%. And I am so proud of that because it means it's that good that people want to keep watching the same movie over and over. You know exactly how it's going to end. You know the story. You can probably say the words. Yeah. The Dupont factors of Tiermarkel. They can cite it with me, but yet you want to watch it again. And I'm so proud. I'm like, so weirdly proud of that because it just means that people are finding so much value out of it to the point where, like I said, we. We took some time to announce the new dates this time around because I had to figure out some logistical. And where in the world I'm going to be. For example, make sure I have good Internet. Yeah, yeah. So we were a little delayed announcing it.

[Interviewer]

When is it so people know it

[Sonia]

starts later this summer.

[Interviewer]

Okay. Because we can put the dates in the. In the. If you have them, we can just put them in the show notes.

[Sonia]

Oh, perfect. I'll give them to you.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, put a link and.

[Sonia]

Yeah, yeah, I'll give them to you after this. But yeah, people were like, I haven't heard. Did I miss it? I'm going to kill myself. I miss like I'm going to be so mad if I'm like you didn't miss it. So it's, it's coming, it's coming. I mean Facebook messages, Instagram posts, Instagram DMS emails all day, every day. Just when is it happening? I have to make sure I mark my calendar.

[Interviewer]

She do another live. Live training whenever you in person training for the 10 year anniversary.

[Sonia]

That's a really good idea.

[Host]

That'd be really cool.

[Sonia]

I really like that idea. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Maybe like not like a full training, like a two day or something like that. That'd be kind of cool.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Something neat.

[Sonia]

I love, I love teaching in person and I never get the chance to do it that much anymore.

[Interviewer]

So much better in person. I mean doing. I think people have like zoom fatigue. It's.

[Sonia]

You just learn differently when you're again out of your. Away from your laundry, away from your dishes and your bills and then if you have kids and you know, family obligation. I mean I think about how fatigued I got and burned out from just the monotony of. And what am I describing a one person household. Come on. Like I can't imagine so no one.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

But there's still early and have more.

[Interviewer]

There's still a lot to that though. Like it's. I mean even just one person it's still, I mean like life gets in the way. That's just how it is sometimes. It's just how it works.

[Sonia]

Yeah. And it's easier to think when you're you know and absorb information. You have just a different energy and a different creativity.

[Interviewer]

So yeah there's. And there's also like just like but in person like just like being able to see like the way you move you like like just little things like that like like your non verbals like all like just all those little things like like I love like watching a guest and like just like watching them like the way they kind of talk or like the way they react to certain things. Like maybe like they move their foot there. It's like oh maybe this isn't a topic we should talk about. Or like just like little things like that like when like you're training too. Like maybe you're teaching trademark stuff and someone like like oh a light bulb one's off. Like oh, let's look. What's your question? Do you have a question about that? Let's talk about that. You can add. It adds more to the content. It's. It's a lot better.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

All right. We'll have A few minutes left because they're gonna kick us out here. So. Yeah, I did. So I, I do. Like, are there things when it comes to the travel that like, you didn't. Like there are obstacles that you didn't think about before you went on this journey?

[Sonia]

Yeah, I think there's always surprise. As much as I tried to pre optimize, as much as I could, things just pop up or like I'm like, oh, I didn't think about that being a thing. Nothing that hasn't been solvable yet.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

So I've decided that as long as you have a passport and a visa and some amount of cash, I always have like at least a couple hundred dollars in cash just in case. And I hardly use it and nobody really accepts it anymore. But just in case.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

You can solve most problems.

[Interviewer]

So even if you had to bribe

[Sonia]

somebody, you know, or just ask nicely.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

But I'm trying to think of something that like, really has caught me off guard so far. Nothing really yet, but I'm sure it'll come. I think next time we'll talk. I'll probably have a couple crazy stories. I think the hardest thing for me has been probably time zones of it's, you know, not hard to be like, oh, I'm in Eastern, I'm in Pacific. Like, that's easy. Right. But when you're projecting out two, three weeks for a call and you don't know where you're going to be, that is. That's a little tricky.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Sonia]

So I just revolve around Eastern and Central time because I feel like that's majority of how the.

[Interviewer]

The working world is brilliant way to do it. Yes.

[Sonia]

So I anchor around that. And so admittedly, like going backward, like Hawaii has been one of the destinations I've wanted to go to for a while. Just because. To experience it just, you know, I

[Interviewer]

like that Maui's so beautiful.

[Sonia]

It's so beautiful. And just that the culture is just so relaxing and so laid back, which again, kind of is something I really align with. But being that many hours behind the rest of the world. So different is I, I would personally, I think, find it hard to relax because you wake up and you're like, the world's already going. Which I struggled with in California a lot is being able to have like that slow, easy morning where you have your. I get up and like, I grab a Venti iced coffee and I'm like, let's see what fresh hell is waiting for me when I open this computer. Because I'm. No matter how early I wake up, I'm three hours behind.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

And I'm not a morning person either, famously. So. Like, I don't like to wake up early. I don't know if you're going to find this fascinating or lazy, but I don't set an alarm. I wake up when I'm ready.

[Interviewer]

I don't know how people do that.

[Sonia]

I wake up when I'm done.

[Interviewer]

Like, I think it was five in the morning, like, of like trainer. So I gotta be there a certain time. I would like. I would like oversleep everything. That's crazy.

[Sonia]

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's because nothing on my calendar is before like 11:00am it's the

[Interviewer]

difference between litigation and. And transaction. That's. That's. All right. Put promote two. Two weeks to trademarks. Promote 4L and the firm. How do people get in touch with you? Do all that stuff?

[Sonia]

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. So for education.com or two weeks to trademarks, dot com is our website. Trademark Lawyer lady is my Instagram, which I forgot that. Yeah, that's like my favorite way to connect with people is through that, obviously. Facebook. We have a Facebook group for attorneys that are already or interested in trademarks. I mean, if you've never even heard of what it is, you're still welcome to join. But yeah, for education.com and the live dates start in August.

[Interviewer]

So we'll put them in the show notes.

[Sonia]

Yeah, we'll put them there. And CLE credit. In most states we have a non CLE version. If that's not important to people, it's a little bit cheaper.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Sonia]

Because it's cost an administrative fee to put the CLE on.

[Interviewer]

If you're doing. We'll do it.

[Sonia]

Yeah. And then you can get CLE credit even if you watch it on your own. So you don't have to attend live. If you're seeing this after the fact or it's too late to block out those sessions. There is a window of time where you can still get CLE credit by watching on your own.

[Interviewer]

That's awesome.

[Sonia]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So, so much. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. You flew in like you were in another freaking country. So thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it.

[Sonia]

Thank you for having me. I really is an honor. I think that you capture so many of our stories and the way that you sort of show the people that are listening how many ways it can look to lawyer and lawyer happily, I think is a gift. And I think you have a way of bringing out our stories. So I've enjoyed your podcast for years. It is, I'm sure people say this all the time. It is an honor to be asked and I really, really appreciate it. So thank you. And the platform you give us too, to give get the word out is just amazing. So thank you.

[Interviewer]

Well, the honor's all mine.

[Sonia]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

Y

[Sonia]

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