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Let me tell you where I think entrepreneurs get this wrong. Most business owners will spend thousands of dollars on software they'll barely use, but they hesitate to invest in the one thing that can actually change the trajectory of their business. The room. Every meaningful leap I've seen starts with proximity. One conversation, one introduction, one idea you would have never had sitting behind your desk. That's what Max Lacon is. This October, you'll spend two days surrounded by law firm owners who are building smarter businesses, shopping, sharing what's working for them, and raising the standard for everyone around them. Because here's the truth. Your next level probably isn't hiding in another podcast episode or YouTube video. It's sitting across the table from someone who's already built what you're trying to build. If that sounds like a room you should be in, I'll see you in Atlanta. Get your ticket@maxlaucon.com
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welcome back to Max Malloy Live. Today we've got a great episode for you, as always, and this was a kind of an interesting one. So for the last, I don't know, several months, I've actually taken some time off from jiu jitsu, and I. It's weird because I have kind of felt guilty about it. I don't. I don't really know why. I just. I just felt a little bit guilty. And it wasn't. It's not because of me, like, feeling like I've not been disciplined or things like that because I've been working out in other ways. It's just like a. It was a weirder thing. And I really got to thinking about this because it's like, I was feeling guilty because I wasn't, Like, I wasn't. I was, like, letting my Professor Fabio down. That's what they call. At Gracie Baja. They call them professors. That's the guy, like, the sensei, if you might think of it. Like. But it's, like, also, like, letting down the other people there. Like, they almost feel like teammates. They're not teammates. They're. I mean, for the most part, they're competitors, right? They're. They're competing against you, but you, like, work together. It was so weird. Like, I would. I would run into people, and they'd be like, hey, we can't wait to see you. You know, come back, yada, yada, yada. Like, it's a really, really strong community. And Fabio and his wife would, you know, text me periodically, you know, checking in on me, seeing how I was doing. And it was really interesting, like, how, like, this weird connection I've had. I have to them, and, like, the guilt I felt for. For just missing a little bit of time. And it really got me thinking, like, how. One. Why. It's really. Why is this. But, like, how could we do the same thing for law firms? And, like, it's gonna be. Is it gonna be in the same way? No, because it's for a hobby, so it's for us. It's not gonna be like, hey, I. I really want to go hire a personal injury attorney. I really want to go to, you know, hire my estate planning attorney, or I really want to go get another divorce. You know, things like that. I've never been divorced. Make sure I'm very clear about that. But it's just interesting to me how, like, I. I do think it's possible. It's interesting to me how, like, communities like that can be built. And how do you do the same thing when it comes to a. A law firm? Because I think I do think you can be the resource that people go to. That's the way we've kind of tried to position ourselves. Like, you know what? I may not be the lawyer for you, however, you know, I can get you to the right lawyer. I know the right people, that kind of a thing, and that. That's worked pretty well for us. But I. I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into first before we get into, like, the how to. Maybe we can do some of this stuff is like. Like. Like, maybe like the. Why. Like, why is it that there are things like that? Like, why did I feel that guilt? Because it really wasn't like, I go to the gym and stuff, so it wasn't like, hey, like, I'm not feeling disciplined about doing this. It was, like, completely something different. It really got me thinking about, like, Robert Cialdini, and there's the. The principle of unity, and it's that people are more likely to be influenced by those with whom they share an identity. So I think that could be, you know, one part of it. I think that it's like, okay, like, these are people that I, you know, that I share. Like, this. This thing. I just shared thing. But what's interesting is the vast majority of people, they're not like me. Like, we're different. We're way different. Like, there are no other lawyers there. There's one doctor that I know there. Like, so we're talking about different social classes. That's what I love about this. Like, different social classes, if you want to call it that. I hate even saying it that way. But you know what I mean, you know what I'm talking about, where, like, it's. You have this odd mix of people that you normally would not see hanging out with each other outside of a Jiu Jitsu gym. You just wouldn't. You wouldn't generally see them in the same areas, but inside there, we're saying we're wearing the same or similar uniforms, and no one cares about anything else outside of Jiu Jitsu. It's just Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu. And it's this really cool thing. So we do have that share. We. We have that shared identity when it comes to Jiu Jitsu, right? That. That is something that's really, really cool. So I do think that that's. That's a big. A big part of it. There's also, like, the principle of liking, so people are more likely to be influenced by those they like. There is. So this is one of the. This kind of gets into the how part of things, too, but where, like, the first. One of the first things that Fabio did when I met him was he gave me a hug. Okay. And it was. It's like in every. Every single class, he gives everyone a hug. Every single class. So there is this, like. And how can you not like someone that hugs you? You know what I mean? And I'm not suggesting that you go out and hug, but there's a lot of times where. I mean, I. I'm guessing right now most people don't even meet with all their clients in person. The majority of our clients, we don't meet in person. The vast majority. There are clients that have gone from. Many clients that have gone from start to finish on a case, and I've never met them in person. It's just a weird thing, but it's just how. How the world works these days. But I think you could give maybe a virtual hug where, like, it's the way you talk to people and the way you show that you really do care about them, and we are asking questions. Questions. I think that's part of it too. I guess the other part was like, you know, is it. Was it guilt? Was I actually feeling guilt? Or was it something like, was I just, like, missing that belonging, you know, that connection? Like, there's that part, too. And I don't think that was it. It could be, but if it is, it's like, where there's. They've done a really good job, if that's what it is. Where, like. Like wanting to be a part of something. Like. So if you, when it comes to criminal defense, I, I, I am convinced of this. You can't convince me otherwise. I'm set in stone on this. When it comes to criminal defense, the, There's a very large contingent that want the lawyer, their lawyer. Like, this is my guy, or this is my, this is my lady. Like, I don't know if they'd say it goes to that, but, like, these are, like, this is, this is my attorney. Like, this is this, that's the way they probably put it. Like, this is my attorney, really good friend of mine, Christy Flint, she's got a criminal defense firm and like, she has, she, like, gives shirts to her clients. Out with, out with Flint, you know, so getting out of jail with Flint. So, like, like, that's her, like, that's their attorney, you know, And I think that, I think that's a really big thing when it comes to criminal defense. So, like, being a part of something. I, for me, I don't think it was that. I, I do think it's one of those things where I just, I do think I was kind of letting people down. I, I don't think it was guilt. I don't, or I do think it was guilt. I don't really think it was, like, lacking connection. You know, I've got my other, other communities that I'm part of. I get, I get plenty of that. So it really does. I kind of got down to the point where, like, clients don't stay because of, like, legal skill alone. Like, legal skill is important. I do think it's really, really important, especially for authority and improving yourself and everything else. But the bigger thing to me is they stay because how your firm makes them feel about themselves. It, it really is that there is an attorney. I will not mention his name because this is, this is not meant to be an insult. This is really meant to be a compliment, but it could be interpreted as an insult. So I'm not going to mention his name, his attorney. I know that I, I'd say he's probably, if I were to get in trouble, I wouldn't call him. It's like, because he's, he's, I think he's a good attorney. I think he's a great attorney. But that guy's phenomenal with clients. Phenomenal with clients. And he is really well known and gets a lot of cases and makes a lot more money than the average criminal defense attorney. And it, it's because of the way he treats people. That's what it is. It's the way he talks to people and treats people and everything else. It's a skill is really, really important. So don't get me wrong, I've always thought skill is really, really important. But the way clients feel when it comes to the one like when they're talking to you and when they talk into your firm, so important. So we spend so much time on phone training and so much time on how to talk to people and deal with people and we bring on people to train. Like it's such an important thing that you have to really, really focus on it. And then there's, there's another angle to this too. It's when it comes to loyalty. And people talk about loyalty a lot. And you even hear like loyalty programs, all that. And you know, you don't really hear about those inside legal space. We hear about outside the legal space. Loyalty. I think that's the wrong word for it. The right word, I think is belonging. Like build in belonging. Belonging. So quit chasing loyalty itself like that. That's just not what you're looking for. You want to build belonging. Two completely different words. They're similar, similar, but they're, they're completely different. Have they completely different meanings? So. Because I think what most people is trying to do is like they're trying to retain clients and what they're trying to do that through follow ups with clients and marketing. But loyalty isn't in something like built through tactics like that. It's, it's through what you do is you, you create belonging through that identity that we're talking about and through some sort of a shared experience. Like anytime you can come up with some sort of way of connecting with the client, like sharing having some sort of shared experience. That's why asking so many questions is so important. Anytime you can get that from them, you can connect with them. So, so important. I do the same thing when I'm talking to a jury where like I will bring up so many different parts of my life if I can, without an objection, so I can try to connect as many with, with as many people as possible on the jury. It's, I think it's an overlooked technique when it comes to running a firm. Is, is trying to give as much to them, like let them know as much about you as you hear about them or get all that information, then say, oh yeah, I, I did that. I've done that before. Or I had this time where I did this or I did that. I think that's really, really important. There's a, there's a bankruptcy attorney I know and I. I was. I always kind of found it really fascinating. And he does a really good job getting clients because. Because he's gone through a bankruptcy himself, and so he can. He can actually empathize with them and say, hey, you know, I completely know what you're going through. I've gone through the same thing. This is a very embarrassing thing. It's. I've been there in your same shoes. So there's nothing you can say to me that I've. I've not already been through, I've not already seen. I think it's a really. I think it's a really powerful technique. I think that's something that can. That's really powerful so you can draw those connections. And so what you really want to do is you're trying to find a way to. To make your clients a part of something. So if you have, like, a vision that you can share with them, it's really, really important where we talk about how. With our clients, how, you know, we want. It's really important for us to be involved in our communities and in the legal community, not just the. Not just our communities that we live in, but the. The legal community. That's. That's what we talk. I talk about maximum lawyer to some of our clients and. And talk about how important that is to us and how we want to be really, really impactful in the legal community. So we. We. We want. We want them to be partial. That's why we share our core values with our clients and so that they know, hey, this isn't just something that we put on the wall. These are the things that we live as well. And it's really, really important. And so something else I've thought about. I know Jimmy has done a really good job this. When it comes to, like, building a community online, if you can find a way to build an online community, we have. We've considered things, we've tried things. We created Ask a Lawyer group, but it ended up being mostly family law cases, and it ended up being more work than anything. So we end up shutting it down. So we. We've tried that in the past. We not been as successful as Jimmy has when it comes to building that online community. But if you can build that online community, that's great. I think it is a little bit easier with things like immigration or anything like trademarks or. I don't know if there's any trademark groups. I don't know if Joy Vitalis or anything like that, but I think you totally could. Where people are asking questions and sharing information. So really good. Really good. 1. The danger that we had the thing that one of the major reasons also why we shut it down is we had a lot of non lawyers trying to give legal advice inside the group. And that's where we're like, okay, you can't do that. That's not okay. And it was like. It was like whack a mole. That's why that I'm just sharing some of my experience. So that if you. If you think you want to do it on the community, watch out for certain things because you. You'll. You could run into a few issues. But another way of looking at this is that you can become sort of like the trusted guide for. For people where. Or maybe even a. There might also be like an employee on your staff that could be like a sort of a trusted guide. We have Carrie on our team. She is just like this. In another life, she would be like this. I don't know what you'd call them, but like this spiritual. The spiritual leader. She's like the spiritual guide. She's so calming. And so when the clients talk to her, like, it's just such a. She's just a calming force. And so if you got an employee that can kind of sort of be that trusted guide for some of your clients or as in the legal space, as an attorney, you can kind of be the trusted guide for some of your clients. I think that's the way to be. And that's why, well, we tell our clients, like, hey, if you've got an issue, just give me a call. I'll find the right attorney for. I'll say to the right person, it's really important. There is this Richard Branson quote I want to share with you. Pl. Clients do not come first. Employees come first. If you take care of your employees, they will take care of the clients. And that's where, like, you. There's like this part of it too, where the. If you go back to Jiu jitsu, this is. It's run. It's most. It's owned by a couple, but it's run by Fabio and his wife. And the. The owners do a really good job. I've talked to Fabio and his wife about this before, and they've. They're. They're really well taken care of by the owners. They really. And in turn, they do a really good job of taking care of the. The people in the community. They. They spend all of their time, including with their young, little, young child. He's like four Tao. I mean, they'll travel all over the country going to tournaments and spending time with like going to like they don't have to do this. Like they will go to tournaments with members just to be there to support them. And it's a really cool thing. And I think, I do think a big part of that is that the owners take care of their employees are employees, they're technically employees and they just do a really good job of, of doing that. I think it's a really, really important part of this. Right. I've been, I've been dilly dallying throughout my outline. So I apologize. I, I, I been, I do that from time to time. Those of you that listen this, I, I do tend to do that from time to time. So I'm going to try to skip through my outline a little bit and get you a little further down down. So we can get into some, how maybe we can engineer some of this connection. I think engineering is, is the right way without being manipulative. Let's just say that too. We want to engineer that connection without being manipulative. So because you, you really, you don't want to create some sort of artificial guilt, I guess is way you could put it. It's, you want to sort of build in authentic design some authentic systems that will consistently deliver value, show that you're, that you really do care and of course sort of build a presence with your, with your clients. So I do think there may be some repeatable actions that you can take to show that clients that they matter. Making sure that you are. Every time you're talking to a client where one of the, this is, I've mentioned this before. I'm mentioned again. But you, you, you make sure you're mentioning things that are, that's going on in your clients lives where our, our team, this, this started organically. They started putting at the bottom of every note something going on in that client's life. If they can get it, they, you can't always get it because sometimes it's like a, a client's got to go or something. But if you can get it, you, you know, maybe they're talking about their, their son's soccer game or their daughter's volleyball tournament or whatever it is, you mention that at the bottom of the note. And then the next time that you speak to them or the next time someone else speaks them, Hey, I heard your, your daughter had a volleyball tournament. How did it go? I mean that is, that goes a long way. I will tell you. That goes. This is a very Powerful thing. So, oh my gosh, how'd you know that you all are actually talking about me at the office. That is really cool. Like, imagine if someone did that. Like, imagine your dentist was like, oh, how'd your, how'd your daughter's volleyball tournament go? I was talking to Susie and she said that she had. I mean, that's, that's, that's big. That's a really powerful thing. So try that. That's a really, really good one. The another thing to think about is like, how can you create small commitments early that lead to sort of deeper trust over time where like you make these, these commitment a little bit of commitments to the clients and then you deliver on those. Okay, so maybe an example of that might be, is here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make sure. And you might already do this. You might already do this, by the way, like let's say a personal injury attorney and you have to get a police report. So you just say, hey, what we're going to do is we're going to that police report. I'm going to send that to you as soon as it comes in. We should have it in about a week or two. And then a few days later, because you've already got it, you send it to them. Like, these may seem like really small things, but what you're doing is you're voicing the commitment to them and then following through. Otherwise they don't even know about it. Right. They won't even know that you're ordering a police report. But what you're doing is you're telling them what you're doing and then you're doing it and show and actually showing you the value, showing them the value that's going to build that trust later on in the case. So that you, because that's one of those things where you want to build up that trust with the case that whenever it really, really matters, that they need to really, really listen to you. They, they, they built up that trust with you so that they'll actually listen to you. So think about like those small commitments. They, that they can mean a lot. And then let's talk a little bit about systems that you can build in so, so that clients can feel supported even whenever you're like really not even like actively working on their case. So create email sequences explaining, explaining the process. Send them, you know, birthday cards whenever it's their birthday. Send them, send them newsletters that you can just build in that are evergreen, that you can just have Them come out based on the timing of the case. You know, these different things where it's just automated, you build it. Once you set it, you forget it. And there's things that we've forgotten, I mean we built years ago, probably a decade ago that I've completely forgotten about that are still going on. The clients, you need to build those things in to clients and so that they know that you're thinking about them. Another one to think about is like how to create moments where clients feel genuinely cared for. And so this is one where we built in the cares team where the check in calls where it's just a check in with clients, nothing else. You're not asking anything of the clients, you're not giving, giving them updates on the case. Nothing. Hey. Hey Sarah. How you doing? What's going on? We just want to see how, how things are going with you. That's it. Nothing else. I have nothing else to talk about today. I just want to see how you're doing. That's it. Just it. Those gas calls, you know, give a calls. The things like that, where you build those in and you're not taking from them, you're not taking anything from them. There's nothing business related. It's just checking in on them and getting, just getting a feel for how they're doing. That's it. There's a lot of value in that. A lot of value in that. All right, let me see if there's something else I can pick off really, really quick before we start to wrap things up. Oh, here, here's a fun question. I guess something kind of maybe get you thinking about like how so what, what would your firm look like if it operated more like a community than a service? Like what? Like what, what shape would that, would that take? I think that's an interesting thing to way to think about it. I actually spent a lot of time thinking about this. That's why we've tried different things when it comes to a community, because it is different. Right. A service is, you know, you go and get your oil change and then you leave. Right. But a community is more of like hey, check out our, our Facebook group on. And we talk about, you know, things you can do at home to help, help keep your car or make that oil last longer. Things like that. Like, so I'm just made that up on the spot. I'm sure you can probably come with a lot better ideas on how you could do things. That's why like I do think like immigration is the perfect one for this because because it's in the spotlight and the when it comes to politically, like, so people are talking about different things. The rules are always changing, it seems like. So you can talk about all these different things, but there's, there's other practice areas that you can easily do the same thing. So think about how you can make it more like community. But that's all I got that came from, you know, me. Just weird. It's weird. Had a weird feeling about not going to jiu Jitsu and finally got back and then actually feeling so great and welcome back. Whenever I went there, it was like no one gave me, gave me any hell about it. It wasn't like, oh, where you been? Like, it was nothing like that. Hey, so good to see you. So hopefully you got something from this episode where you can actually build that, build that in to your firm and your community. But make sure you check out Becca's list BeccaSlist Co where you can find the best vendors for your firm. Make sure you check out maxlawcon.com so you get your tickets to the Maxim Lawyer conference in October in Atlanta. We'd love to see you there. And if you are not in the association, if you're listening to this recorded, that means you're probably not in the association. Check us out@maxplayer.com and we would love to have you in the association. Have a great week, everybody. We will see you next week. Bye.
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