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- [00:01]
Tyson Mutrix
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law.
- [01:20]
Travis
This is Maximum Lawyer with your host Tyson Mutrix.
- [01:29]
Tyson Mutrix
All right, so we have the Rise up guys here today. I'm going to be asking some questions. So we've got Travis invite us and I'm really excited to have you all and ask you some of these questions. But before we kind of get into that, I think this question is maybe more for Travis, but you've spent decades really working directly with law firms and really on their marketing. And so what do you think is the biggest shift that you've seen in the last few years when it comes to how chains have firms have changed how they get their clients?
- [02:02]
Travis
Yeah, well, I mean, like you said, I've been doing this for almost two decades and I remember back in the day we were having to convince attorneys that they need a website. We don't hear that very much anymore. But I really think it's just, you know, after Covid, people were realizing that they needed to jump on the Internet, they needed to expand their footprint and really get more visibility. And so we've seen more acceptance of that over the last five years or so to where, you know, even folks that, I mean the personal injury attorneys were always first to market and all that good stuff and accepting of marketing. But all the other practice areas as well as now, they realize that people are Using their phones. People are jumping online and really accepting the idea of having a digital footprint.
- [02:53]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. I remember early on, whenever I got in, when I started my firm, I couldn't really compete with the PI people at the time. Right. So I was doing criminal defense and personal injury and so criminal defense was like shooting fish in a barrel or like no one was doing it. It was super easy. The Google Ads were super cheap from an SEO standpoint. I was ranking very quickly and I was just doing it all myself. All that has changed substantially, especially nowadays. It's completely different. I do wonder where, because I think you all have a massive advantage because you all stay, stay up to speed on things when it comes to like the LLMs and how the search is changing and all that. I guess where do you all see that head? I mean that, that seems like it's kind of like a wild west right now.
- [03:36]
Travis
It is a wild, wild, wild west for sure. I mean the, the good thing right now as we sit here In August of 2025, much of the things that you do for SEO are very similar to get, to get, getting a firm to show up on chat GPT and things of that nature. It's still all about publishing content and making it authoritative. Right. So those things have not changed. But if I were just like I run this business, my what I tell people is stay diversified. Right. Like the same thing that your, your stock guy or your investment guy would tell you is you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Right. I mean we've seen this over the last three, four years. Where LSAs came into the picture is if your budget allows and as you grow your don't keep all your eggs in one basket. You know, having sea and PPC and LSAs and social, having all those revenue streams up and going is, is what, what's going to help you survive as, as time keeps going and then when as chat GPT, it's pulling market share, it's pulling traffic away from Google, you definitely want to make sure that you're, you're investing in that or being able to, you know, as, as things get more clear of how that works, certainly there's going to be, I can't imagine there's not going to be ads on a lot of these LLMs that's coming. I can't imagine that that's not going to be the case. So that would be my biggest. If you can afford to do so make sure you diversify, not have everything in one, one bucket.
- [05:06]
Tyson Mutrix
It's got to be kind of an exciting time for you all though, because it's changing so much. So your company is going to have to adapt. You're probably already adapting substantially to the new reality. And I. So, I mean, is this part of this kind of exciting for you all? Because it's, it's not like you're just gonna be doing SEO. It's gonna be, it's, there's gonna be so much more to it.
- [05:25]
Travis
No, it's, it's definitely an exciting time. There's gonna be some big winners for sure. And we want our clients to be there a hundred percent. Like, there, there, there's no question about it. Like, we're, we're excited as a company and investing a lot of time and resources to figure all this stuff out. So we can take our client. I mean, we have close to 600 clients. If they win, we win. As, as I think we've said on this podcast before, everything we do is month to month. So, you know, we have to earn our paycheck every single month. So it, it's a, you know, a lot of people are scared of what's coming with AI, and I understand all those, those things, but I think there's a huge advantage, like it always has been. As technology is advanced, there's going to be winners. And how do we get our clients to be those, those farms that are winning?
- [06:14]
Tyson Mutrix
I think it's really cool how you all always approach things where it's, you know, like, we're in this together. You know, I think a lot of companies, they view it's like us versus them and you all view it as like, hey, now, like you just mentioned, like we, you know, we have, we have 600 customers. You know, like, and I, I think that is really cool how you, you do view it as like, we're all in this together. You know, we're, we're trying to do everything we can to win for our people. I think that that's, that's really, really cool. But I'm going to shift gears because there are. You all probably seen a lot over the years about this where there's some firms where they just, they say, you know, all I want is referrals. They rely heavily on referrals. And I know Travis, you'd mentioned, you know, defer diversifying and all that, but, and this may be more of a question for Vitus, but at what point do you see that that strategy start to limit growth?
- [07:00]
Vitis
Well, the firms that typically say they get all their business from referrals also say, I don't need to market and it doesn't matter. And that's really a very limiting approach because one referrals, you don't know when the next one's coming in. So there's no consistency to it. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's feast or famine, right. And the other thing that's really important is that, you know, we know referrals come in threes. Typically people don't get one referral, they get a couple, two or three. And the first thing that they're going to do is go Google you, go research you online, see what you know, what they find out about you. And numerous conversations are always about, you know, would, would you tell somebody if they're considering hiring you to go to your website to validate who you are? In other words, are you proud enough of your website? Does it say all the right things to represent you as the first impression? And a lot of times they're like, oh no, no, we don't, we don't want that going on. Well then you're just literally shooting yourself in the foot there because most people's first impression of you as a lawyer or a law firm is going to be your website because they're going to go Google you and see what they find.
- [08:07]
Travis
And how do you grow, you know, with firms that are growth minded, right, Which I would assume many of your client, your listeners are, it's like, how do you go scale your business 25% next year just off referrals or 50% or 100%, like you have no control over that. And so you better have a line in the water with some type of marketing that you can scale if truly you want to grow. I mean if you're, if they have enough business and they're not trying to grow, then sure, work off referrals, that's fine. But I know our business. Listen, we have 10 sales reps that work with us that all have been in this business for 10, 15 plus years. Like we don't hire folks who don't have tons of experience and they, we still need to market, right? We, we spend the same type of money and we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a month on marketing just to keep this thing rolling.
- [08:59]
Vitis
And on top of that actually, and this is mostly sort of in the PI specific market, right, where you know, I get all my business from referrals. Well typically they're paying a referral fee or a percentage, right. And it seems to be happening more often than not now where they're like, you know, I am really Tired of doing all the work and then having to cut a check to somebody just because they gave me a lead. You know, Steve, my colleague at Rise up who goes to all the Max Law events, his, his whole point is, is like, what'd you pay on referral fees last year? That, that should be your marketing budget because that's what you're paying for marketing. You're just writing them a check versus, you know, marketing for yourself as a firm.
- [09:36]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I think there's another problem that a lot of people, I don't think they think about is that you see a lot of firms that have plateaued over the years, and a lot of those firms are the ones that they don't really focus on marketing. They say they get their cases from referrals, and they do start to plateau. And the problem with the plateau is it's really hard to get out of that plateau if you let it go too long because you start to see, okay, everything's stagnant. They start to hire more and more people, so their profit margins get slimmer and slimmer. So then they have less money to spend on marketing. And by the time they hit that backslide, they don't have money for the marketing, and now they're having to slash everything. So it's, it's a, it's a really big problem if you let the plateau go too far. And, and that's where, that's where I think that, that approach, although it can be effective at some, to some extent, there's a point where you, you're going to plateau because you're not focusing on marketing, and it's really going to hurt you. And, and so I, and you make a really good point, though, about when it comes to the just spending money on the marketing, continue to market and all that too. But it's, I think it's the, it's the backside of things that people don't think about too much.
- [10:40]
Travis
It's digging your well before you're thirsty. Right.
- [10:43]
Tyson Mutrix
I like that. I like that. I like that phrase. That's, that's exactly what it is.
- [10:47]
Travis
I mean, we see, we see this, you know, doing this for so long. Like, we see this right, where it's the firm little longer in the tooth seeing this, you know, worked off referral, and we get the call, the panic call, like, hey, these young warper snappers down the road are grabbing some cases that we quote, unquote, should be getting right. And I know why they're doing that because they've been investing in their online presence. And we have completely neglected that. And now they're forced with having to play some catch up, which they never had to do before. And then the expectation on us is like to make up for 10, 15 years of not marketing and try to.
- [11:24]
Vitis
Get them, years of not doing.
- [11:28]
Travis
Try to get them caught up. And then you're, you know, then they need to have patience to make sure that they're, you know, get caught up with, with the folks who've been doing this for 10, 15 years and dump investing tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into their marketing.
- [11:42]
Vitis
And there's also, just to add to that, Tyson, it's really a dynamic shift that's going on from a old school versus new school way of doing things. I would argue that again, I've been doing this 25 years. The lawyers that I started working with 20, 25 years ago, they're either set in their ways, winding down their practice or to Travis's point, they have some younger attorneys they need to feed. But like they're fine, right? But most firms, if they haven't participated, are lacking in that. And the younger generation of lawyers that may not hold a candle to them as far as experience. They grew up with, with digital phones and marketing and social media and that's all they know. So they're jumping into it like a year into practice. They've got a website that crushes what this firm that has 30 lawyers or 30 years of experience has. And they're like, to Travis's point, how are they getting those clients? Well, they're getting those clients because they're on the first page of Google, they're running local service ads, they're doing all the right things. The only way anyone hires you, Mr. Attorney, is if they're referred to you because I can't find you, you know, with a magnifying glass because you have no on site or no online presence. And that's a conversation that typically is a bit of an eye opener to them because they don't really know what they're missing until they see it.
- [13:01]
Tyson Mutrix
It makes me think about, so I've heard actually multiple stories, this is kind of a plug for you all where people started using you all and got results really quickly. And so I, I do wonder what it is that you, whenever a firm that is in that similar position, like what is it you all are doing to get them results so quickly? Because I know that SEO is more of like a long term strategy, but I have heard multiple stories of people hiring rise up and saying, hey, I've gotten Pretty quick results. And so I am curious about that part of it.
- [13:32]
Travis
I think it really comes down to this, talking to the attorney and figuring out what is their budget, what do they want, where do they want it and how much of it do they want. Right. And then figuring out what is your budget. Have they thought through, thought this through? Like if the PI clients employment work comp, like they get paid on contingency, has a salesperson or marketing person ever walk them through what that looks like? And I tell every, every one of them that I talked to, I was like, even if I came onto this call with five cases over my shoulder, you're not seeing money that for six or 12 months. Best case scenario. And they go yeah, yeah, you're right. So have you thought this through? Like I'm going to go do a bunch of research and figure out what it's going to take to get your site to rank. And if you're just starting, you're looking at depending on the market and so on and so forth. But can you palate paying X amount of dollars for a year before even case number one comes in and then cases come in and now you're waiting for it to get paid for another six or 12 months. Have you thought that through or, and that's more of a long term strategy or do we need to implement pay per click ads or LSA ads or social media where the phone's going to ring right away and maybe we go, maybe we go a little conservative on the website. Just let's get you a fancy brochure online so you're, you're the, the fish that are trying to jump in the boat which are your referrals. Do, do that right. And do we incorporate some more instant, I wouldn't say short term strategy because that would imply that you, you should shut it off after some time, but more of an instant gratification type of strategy where we can get some cases in the door, let's get cash flow in the door and let's help you scale your business. I think a lot of folks, myself included, you know us all starting businesses before, like you, you don't know everything. You haven't thought this through. Do you have somebody experienced that will walk you through what that looks like and set the right expectation? I'll give you a perfect example. I have a client that I worked with for a long time. He's a, he's a criminal defense DUI attorney here in Southern California and he was newer to the game, had a website, it was, got Awful, but it'll do for the time being. He had some content on there that we could, we could utilize. We, he had a $3,500 budget. We put a thousand bucks toward the website just to give him a fancy brochure online. Took another $2,500 and put it into LSA ads. He was able to get 17 calls that first month, seven of them turned into cases. He charges $3,500 for, for a DUI. So off of that $3,500 he made 24, five. And then I'm getting goosebumps right now thinking about it. Like, he's like, I just had the best month I ever had. Thank you so much for doing it. I could have took that. Listen, we put a majority of that money and gave it to Google, right. We could have done, I could have done that. Take that same budget, put it all into a website knowing that it's going to take them a year, year and a half to get caught up in LA Southern California with DUIs and probably would have quit along the way at some point because his finances weren't. Would, I'm guessing would probably not be able to keep up with that. But because we had his best interests in line in mind and I want his business for the long term, not just for a month or two. We switched that and were able and understood his needs. Even though he didn't think, wasn't able to think it, didn't have the knowledge to think it through. What, what, what expectations to have but put him in a position to where now here we are three, four years later and now his website's killing it. He, he put more money into that. We extended, expanded his LSAs and he's cooking now. That is how a marketing company is, is. Look who's looking out for their clients. Should do, should do business, in my opinion. Yeah.
- [17:07]
Vitis
And, and to, to answer, I think your question in a slightly different way was how are we able to get fast results? I think that's what started the question. Is that right?
- [17:17]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, pretty much. Because it's, I mean it's interesting how you're able to make little tweaks so quickly or like do little adjustments and do, do fast things to get, get fast results. And I, I just think it's an interesting thing that you're able to do.
- [17:30]
Vitis
Yeah. And, and without giving away the secret sauce, if you will.
- [17:33]
Tyson Mutrix
I think no, I want you to give all the secrets, give us every single secret.
- [17:37]
Vitis
I mean this sounds sort of one sided, but it's amazing to me to this day, of how many people that we talk to that are being told that they're getting certain services, whether, oh yeah, we're, we're getting SEO or we're getting this and we're getting that. And then when we look under the hood, there's really not a whole lot going on. And you know, their, their content isn't competitive and their blog posts or whatever they're quote paying for is so low on the what's required scale that by us just doing it right, doing what we do as a company, we're able to improve on that very quickly because we actually take a look at the entire picture and again, whether it's, hey, you know what, you need to move the needle quickly. We're going to run LSAs, we can get those turned on within a few days because you've got a good GMB going. And more importantly, we have, we look at our relationships with our clients as partnerships. This isn't a transaction where we build you something and hey, we'll call you in a year. We have a very partnership centric team, centric approach with our clients. Some of our clients we talk to honestly a couple every couple weeks. If it's like a new ramp up, some of them are scheduled once a month, once a quarter. But it is an ongoing relationship so that we can show them the results of what we're doing and the strategy that we implement every single month. There's a lot of companies that once a website's been built, there's really almost nothing going on on an ongoing basis, which in this day and age, in the competitive nature of Google is you're treading water or sinking so bluntly. Most of the people we end up working with are in some level of that. So when we bring on our services and our approach, it has a pretty significant impact pretty quickly.
- [19:16]
Tyson Mutrix
You know, I hear something, a couple phrases all the time where, you know, I tried Google AdWords, it didn't work. I tried LSAS, it didn't work. I Tried SEO, it didn't work. I mean, is there anything that you all could point to that usually is like a common thread as to why those things didn't work for those firms?
- [19:32]
Vitis
Traffic. You want to take it?
- [19:34]
Travis
Yeah, one of, one of two things. Lack of budget or lack of effort on the marketing person's marketing agency's end? Right. Like what we do is not, it's not inexpensive. Right. There's, it's just, it's not simple, you know, like in each of those different things, there's a Different reason for it. Ppc. You can spend too little bit of money, right? Like if it's, you know, we get calls frequently where people go, hey, like in Southern California, for example, like, hey, I want to go after car accidents in Los Angeles and I have 10 grand a month and I, I spend it with XYZ company and I'm not getting anything. And I said, you should take your wife on a vacation or out to dinner or go put it on red and black in Vegas. Because it's not gonna work with us either, right? Because, you know, out here it's 350 to $500 a click. Say it's $500 a click. You can do the math. If you're giving Google, and that's not one dime going into our pocket, you give Google 10 grand and it's 500 bucks a click. A good conversion rate, for example, is like for every five people that click your ad, one person calls. You're a 20% conversion rate. Google will tell you 10%. I would tell you that's not what we shoot for, but let's say 20%. So if you're only getting X amount of clicks, you're not turning over enough cards to find the ace. Like in a silly example, like if you had a deck of cards and you're looking for aces, like there, you know there's four aces in the deck, right? And if you're only turning over three or four cards, you're only buying three or four cards off the top of the deck and crossing your fingers, hoping you found an ace. I don't like those odds. You know, if I were a betting man, which I am, I'm not taking those odds. So having a big enough budget to at least go, how the firms that are doing well do it is they buy 30, 40, 50 cards off the deck and they're flipping them over, and now they get all the aces and they're able to make scale that business. Does that make sense? LSA is a little bit different. The only way that really doesn't work is if the phone doesn't ring, right? If your phone doesn't ring, you don't spend any money. So there's some safety rails in there, right. Type of thing. And then the big thing is answering the phone. We work with almost 600 firms, I would say, on average, across the board. If you put them all in a big bucket, like firms typically answer their phone 65, 70% of the time, there's like 30% that they miss. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. Typically most firms, like one call can pay for their marketing, right. If I'm generalizing. So, like making sure you're answering the phone, making sure there's multiple ways to communicate with your office, right? Phone calls, emails, texts. Like, especially the younger generation. Like, I have a younger brother that works with me. Like, if I call him, he probably is not going to answer the phone. But if I text him, he like text me right back and I'm like, dude, like, I don't want to talk on the phone. There's just that, there's just that big.
- [22:18]
Vitis
That's a generational thing, no question. Like, the younger generation doesn't talk. They want immediate texting, messaging. But I don't have time to talk to you, so I agree.
- [22:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, how do you all educate your, your customers then? Because you've probably run into situations where you've done all this work where you're generating the leads and then they've got these massive holes in their boat where they, they're not capturing those leads in some way and not following up. So it's got to be extremely frustrating for you all, I bet, because you've done this work too, and they've paid you the money to do it. You've done what you, what you needed to do. The leads are coming in, their calls are coming in, they're getting things, submissions through their website. So how do you all convey that to your, to your clients? You gotta, you gotta fix these holes in your bucket.
- [23:05]
Travis
We record every call, everyone. If you're a client of ours, I would turn the screen on and we use the thing called CallRail. There's tons of different options out there, but literally just listen to every call and we will do the legwork of listening to their calls. Let's say they're getting 100 calls. We'll go back 90 days or whatever it takes, and we'll have somebody listen to all the calls and put notes on there and bring them a scorecard of like. And we've actually developed some AI that will do. Listen, we just build a tool that we're about to launch that will do it all for them where I'll give them a call and go, hey, listen here. These hundred calls, you know, 30 of them are missed. 20 of them were hit a voicemail, 17 appointments were set or whatever. And then we're able to give it to. But it's really just answering the phone and converting those calls and showing them. It's an aha moment. I don't remember. I've been on the phone with thousands of law firms. I don't know of one that's showed up to the call and go, hey, listen, my intake sucks. But I would like to do my, like it's, it's denial, right? It's complete denial. So it's a little bit of showing them like listen and we tell them ahead of time. Are you okay with us listening and critiquing your intake? Can we secret shop your office, like doing all these things? Because listen, our, our relationship has a small timeline. If we don't fix those. I wish, Tyson, that we could just do what we do best, market and get the phone to ring and everything else would work itself out because it's not in our job description. So we've had to make relationships with answering services, with chat services and things of that nature and roll up our sleeves and get involved with these guys to help them. Because 85%, 80 some odd percent of our clients are solo practitioners, up to about two or three attorneys. So they're the chef, they're the waiter, they're the cook, they're the, you know, they're the, the host. And they got a million things. Like every business owner can relate to this. You have a million things and you got a to do list and you get to like seven of them of the 20 on your list every day. Right. And so it's, it's up to us to fill the gap and bring to the table, like here's what's going on. There's been some tough conversations over the years that we've had to have where people, you know, have their mother in law answering the phone and they've had to delegate her to a different task because, because they don't realize that how rude that person is answering the phone. You know what I mean? So anyway, that's the big piece that we, if I could give any piece of advice, as funny as it may sound, because it doesn't put any, we don't make any money off. Figure out your intake and you'll spend half the money in marketing, get twice the results, in my opinion.
- [25:39]
Vitis
Yeah. And if I could just kind of piggyback off that because, you know, you said how frustrating is it for us and know how do we handle that? And kind of what I said earlier about we have very constant communication with our clients. Like every time we get on the, on a zoom call with our clients, we go through this stuff. We go through the analytics of the website, through the calls and all that stuff. And it's a very humbling experience to them when we show up. Okay, well, you had 50 phone calls last week, but 25 of them all went to voicemail. The other ones, do you want to listen how your intake was? Because I wouldn't have hire you if this person answered this way. And just, you know, Travis's point, whether it's the mother in law or even worse, you know, hey, I listened to this phone call. This sounds like a really good case. What do you think? And the attorney listens to it, and he's confused as to why his intake said we don't take those kind of cases or referred them to another lawyer in the area when he's like, holy crap, that we take those cases. Right. So it's an educational tool for one. And more importantly, most like, like Travis said, they've got all these hats to wear. Most of them just assume the phone's being answered correctly or well or in a way that they'd be happy with. And not to say that that happens all the time, but there's always room for improvement. And we, and we approach it with like, look, this isn't here to get somebody in trouble or get somebody fired, but I think that there's some lessons to the best way to handle these intakes. You know, know one thing I tell them, like, your, your staff's job when they get that phone call is typically not to educate them, not to answer a ton of questions, but to get them on the, on the calendar for you. You want to book an appointment. And, you know, I've listened to 10 minutes of a paralegal or a receptionist going through all sorts of stuff, and at the end it's like, okay, well, I appreciate it. Thanks. You know, like, you didn't do your job. Like your job is to get the attorney scheduled. Right. So those types of things, things. But it all stems to. We have the analytics and the tools to show them what we're delivering, and if the ball is being dropped, we can show that to them. And in most cases, whether it's an eye opener or not, it's, it's, it's a thankful conversation because they had no idea.
- [27:46]
Tyson Mutrix
So I know, I know this story from kind of, I know some, some back channeling. So I'm not going to mention the firms, but there's a, there's a guy I know who got like an $18 million verdict a few years ago, and afterwards he did this big social media post about how all of the, all of the bigger firms in town had, had rejected it. And, you know, the reasons why, yada, yada, yada. And the, one of those big firms, they went in and looked in all their intake records and they found that client and they had, they saw that they had rejected that case. It was a whopper of a case. It was just one of those, it was one of those ones that wasn't like a cookie cutter case. And so they, they got, it got rejected. And so they revamped everything and how they handled their, their intake because of that case, because. And that's one of the things you don't want to find out whenever someone else gets an $18 million verdict that your intake, you had it first. Yes, that's, that would, that's, that's one of those ones that would be sickening. But so there's other situations too, where there might be other holes in the bucket, where let's say that you're generating, they're generating the traffic, but they're not getting the phone calls or the web. The website submissions would probably indicate, like there's some sort of a conversion issue on the website. So is there, is there maybe, you know, one or two tips that you all might be able to give people when it comes to how to increase conversion from the website?
- [29:09]
Vitis
Yeah, it kind of stems to just what I said. You know, conversion is basically closing, getting an appointment scheduled, not giving away free advice. Right. A lot of attorneys, family law specific, like, I just got a quick question for you. You know, they're shopping for, for input, but they don't want to pay anything for it, that sort of thing. So, you know, conversion comes to, you know, some attorneys say, hey, my first 15 minutes is free. After that, you know, you're going to pay to meet with me or for me to give you advice. But it's, it's closing the deal. It's getting people to set up an appointment. There's always the tire kickers. They're always the people that don't have enough money. I mean, that's just the nature of. It's like fishing. You're not always going to catch a marlin. You got to throw back a bunch of stuff before you get the good stuff. But I think that there's a lack of trying to close the deal by the receptionist, the paralegal, or whoever's calling, because it's typically not the lawyer that's on the phone with the, the person that's calling. I mean, sure, sometimes there's a rollover to cell phone or that sort of thing, but he's usually got staff to handle that sort of thing. And again, at that point, it's like you've got a fish on the line. You've got someone calling about something that you do. Make sure that the job is to get them to talk to you. It's not to answer their questions on the phone or for them or to give them pricing or that sort of thing. It's to get them, get them scheduled. Trav, I don't know if you want to jump.
- [30:26]
Travis
Yeah, so there's a couple. So just for your listeners. So when we use our lingo, when we talk about conversion, there's a couple different things, right? There's callers, people callers and form fills that convert into clients. That's one conversion that we. You want to take a look at. But I think what you're talking about is traffic into callers. Like how do we convert More of the folks that are finding your website to pick up the phone or email in. And so a couple things there is mobile. First take a look at your website and is the phone number available? Is it easy to find you? Right. Don't make it tough for people to find you or get a hold of you, I should say. And if they want to chat, make sure that's available. So look at your website. Is the phone. I can't tell you how many times. A couple different things. I can't tell you how many times I went to a website and I can't find their phone number, right. And I do this for a living, right? Like when I'm a sales call coming up and I take a look at their website and I'm like, are they plain enough for defense? Like, and if I'm having that trouble and I'm and I'm selfishly looking trying to figure out what you do you think a consumer is going to take that time, they're going to scan it and you better appeal to them or your biggest competition is the back button, right. And so make sure you're able. Your website is set up to convert. Well, there's times where I've looked at websites and I look at it on the phone, I'm like, you can't even read it. You know, how do you. So make sure you're optimizing your website and all of your marketing, thinking mobile first and do do a little secret shop on your own office. Is it easy? Is it easy to get ahold of you? Can you find the phone number? Right. Can you. Can you email very, very effectively. And are you getting back to those phone calls and emails quickly? Because that's another thing, if you're opening the door to text messaging and emails, there's stats out there that you can look up. You gotta, the golden hour is a five minute window, you know, and then the, and converting that drops off dramatically as every minute past that. So if you can afford to do so either you or delegate that to somebody that if somebody emails in that you get back to them lightning quickly, that's who's going to win.
- [32:39]
Vitis
Yeah, let me kind of piggyback off that. It's not just emails but, but phone calls. Like I can't tell you how many times and it seems to be typically the solo criminal attorney. It's like, well yeah, I'm in court all day, I can't answer the phone so I go to voicemail. Voicemail is the kiss of death in this society that we live in. People have a patience of, they want immediate results. If I can't get a hold of somebody, I'm calling somebody else. And if you're calling me back, if I even left you a voicemail hours later, I've already called somebody else. So again, what we recommend a lot of our firms that have, we can see how many calls they got missed or how many went to voicemail. Like if you can't answer the phone, find somebody that can. If you are closed on the weekends, have some intake some chat features on your website, some way that if someone is engaging with you that they can reach you. But voicemails are just that that's just a black hole. No one, by the time you call them back, they've, they've already hired somebody else most of the time. So have somebody answer the phone if.
- [33:41]
Travis
You can't because we, we hear this a lot. Well, if they really want to hire me, they'll leave a message like what are we talking about? Like and where that comes from? I joke about it, but I understand where it comes from is that when they work off referrals, typically it would like if I was referred to you, Tyson, if I just said, hey call Tyson, he's the greatest at what he does, whatever. I would call and leave a message because my alternative would be jump online and talk to a perfect stranger. Right? So I'm going to leave a message. But what we're talking about is folks who don't know you and I know there's gonna be egos. A few of them have a few lawyers have some egos out there. I don't know if you met, they don't know who you are. Right. These folks do not know who you are. They don't know the verdicts and settlements or all the, you know, all the awards you've won. They don't know that they event in their life happened. Car crash, divorce, committed a crime, allegedly, whatever, or need a state plan done, and they jump. They don't know attorneys. I didn't know any attorneys. My dad was a doctor. We didn't know any attorneys. He had one golfing buddy that was an attorney. I didn't know anybody, and I didn't realize how specialized people are. Right. It's the reason why, you know, attorneys will say, I do PI. I go, yeah. You know, even your friends and family don't really know what you. Oh, yeah, they do. I'm. Oh, really? Why do they call you when they get a dui or why do they call you right over, you know, Thanksgiving dinner? Folks who do transactional work, they ask you how. How are some of your cases going? You know what I mean? Like, they don't know. They don't put it together. So make sure that they're able to contact you. Clear. Clear statement of what you do, all those kinds of good things.
- [35:15]
Tyson Mutrix
My, My family does finally know what I do. They. So the questions I get are, hey, what. Are there any interesting cases that you're working on? That's usually. That's usually the question I get now is the. So the. Is that one. But yeah, over the years, it took me a little bit of time to kind of educate them on. No, I don't do that. But they, they will call me for recommendations for other people. So that's that.
- [35:35]
Travis
Fine.
- [35:36]
Tyson Mutrix
Before I start to wrap things up, I do want to give you all an opportunity to. To let people know how to get in touch with you if they do want to work with you all. Because I, I do want to let everybody know, like, you all are a sponsor of Max Law Con. You are a title, title sponsor. You all have been a great partner. You. You are amazing. I hear great things about you all the time. So part of me, I want to thank you all because you all been great partners over the years, and I want to keep. Keep that going forward because you all have been really great. And we, We. We're very. We're very. When it comes to who we work with, who we're not, we're very selective. And so having a good partner is really, really important to us. So thank you for that. But. But I do want to, if, if people want to reach out to you, what's the best way of. Of them reaching out to you. If they want to work with Rise Up.
- [36:16]
Travis
Well, our, our website is riseup media.com spelled with a Z. I don't know how to spell over here, obviously, but yeah, reach out and ask for Vitis and, and Steve and we'll get you connected.
- [36:29]
Vitis
Yeah. So, and we've done this on the past podcast. I don't know if you can put at the bottom, but like, I tell people to text me, call me. We don't work nine to five. I know a lot of people don't have time till the weekends. Send us a text. Be happy to set up a time to talk. Whatever works. And if you go to riseup.com we even have a box that says, hey, you're. You know, you heard about us from Max Law. The partnership with you guys and Rise up has been fantastic. So we're really happy to continue that. Looking forward to maxcon and experiencing that for the first time. But I know that we've. I don't know the number, but I have a lot of really good Max Law clients and that continues to grow every month.
- [37:06]
Tyson Mutrix
So we'll put the number in the show notes so people have it. So people will have that. I don't have the capability on this platform to put it on the screen, but the other platform you're on, I did have it, but not. Not on this one.
- [37:16]
Travis
All right.
- [37:17]
Vitis
My Phone number is 704-953-7051, so feel free to text me or call me midnight.
- [37:25]
Travis
Call me midnight, folks.
- [37:27]
Tyson Mutrix
Love it.
- [37:27]
Travis
Very good.
- [37:28]
Tyson Mutrix
It is. I did not think about the fact that this is your first Max lock on because we, we had. We're on hiatus for a few years, so that's because we've done all the other events. So that's, that's really cool. That's the, the fact that you're going to get to experience it for the first time. That's pretty awesome. Pretty excited about that.
- [37:42]
Travis
We're stoked. We're stoked. Absolutely.
- [37:44]
Tyson Mutrix
All right, well, so if, when people come to the booth in Nashville in October, what's something that they should come and ask you about? Because I, that. Because sometimes people are. Think are afraid to kind of go to a booth and ask questions. So what are some. Some things they should ask you about?
- [37:57]
Vitis
Love this question. Yeah, this is, this is. We do a lot of trade show. This is the first thing we're doing with you guys. It's trade show ask. Right. Versus just the normal masterminds. What I tell people is like, if you just want to look under the Hood, we are the least pushy people you'll ever talk to. We're not going to try to force you to buy something or shove something down your throat. But if you want to know what you're doing, is it working? We have tools that we can take a look at of how your website's valued by Google. If you want to know what your competitors are doing, like, hey, there's this firm that just opened up last year, they're killing it. Can you look under their hood? We can give you all of that information, give you some feedback, give you some suggestions. If it's something that you want help with, we can obviously do that. But we give free advice and that tends to be very well received and unfortunately not the norm. A lot of people, I think to Travis's point, they approach, you know, a company at a trade show and they kind of feel like they're, they're just bombarded with, you know, sales pitch. We're here to help, we're here to inform. And so if somebody's going to come up to us at maxcon, just what questions do you have? Do you want to know if you're doing a good job? Do you want to know if you're. The company you're with is doing a good job? We'll give you an honest opinion with no obligation as far as what we.
- [39:10]
Travis
See and figure out what, what is it you want to do and what I tell everybody when I first start talking to them. Where do you want to be? How do you want to see your firm better or different than you are right now in six to 12 months? And then let's put a plan together, whether we're lucky enough to work with them or somebody else. Like, put a plan together of how to accomplish that. And maybe, you know, some people have champagne taste in a beer budget and that's fine, but let's, let's figure it out and in bite sized pieces, if you will. And how do we scale? Like that's what we do every single day. And so if we can, we can help lead them in the right direction. We're happy to do so.
- [39:41]
Tyson Mutrix
Love it. All right. We'll leave it at that. Really appreciate it. RiseUp Media.com with a rise with a Z. So make sure you check them out with RiseUp media.com with RiseUp with a Z. Very, very important. Thank you both for doing this. Travis, invite us. Really appreciate it. We'll see you all in Nashville. If you want Tickets, go to maxlawcon.com and get your tickets there. But we'll see you in Nashville. Thanks, guys.
- [40:02]
Travis
Thank you.
- [40:03]
Vitis
Thank you.
- [40:18]
Max Law Announcer
Hey, I've got a question for you. When was the last time you drove over to another law firm near you, sat down over lunch and traded every business tip you've got? Talked about what's working, what's not, and what to do next? No, see, that's what Maxla Khan is for. It's real conversations with law firm owners who are actually doing this building, leading, scaling, and willing to share what's working right now. You could keep doing it alone, but let's be honest, it's slower, harder, and way more expensive than getting in the room and shortcutting the learning curve. As of this recording, we've got 20 seats left to this year's event Sketch. Skip the guesswork. Go to maxlacon.com and grab your ticket before they're gone.