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- [00:01]
A
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit RiseUp Media.com max law and Rise is spelled with a Z. RiseUpMedia.com max law this is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix. Andrea, I want to start from the very beginning. Okay, so, uhoh, why law? And why specifically trademark?
- [01:38]
B
Oh, I'll give it to you straight. So why law? I just wanted to make a lot of money. I grew up pretty poor and my like, the only vision I had was I got to make a lot of money, I gotta be rich. And the only thing that seemed attainable was being a lawyer. And I thought being in big law was gonna make me rich. And got the dream job right out of law school, worked in big law. And day one I realized it was not for me. I remember week one sitting in my office thinking, what did I get myself into? What happened? And my husband at the time quit his job to stay at home with our son. Like we had it all planned out. I had my son in my last year, my last semester of law school because I had told my husband like, hey, I'm not going to have kids. In my first few years of practice, like I wanted to be married to my job. I wanted to work my way as a partner. And day one, I remember sitting there like, oh, what did I get myself into? And they threw me in the litigation department of course. But luckily I had actually sold a business before starting there. I had a small business. It was A clothing boutique started that sold it. And so I had a network of small businesses, and they were always asking questions. And I knew enough to make it sound like I was the expert. And after a few months at the firm, I realized, like, hey, somebody has to serve these small businesses. They don't know who to go to. They don't know who to trust. And at the time, this was 2017, 2018, where in the news, all you heard about was the retail apocalypse. Like, big box stores were shutting down left and right. But I saw a different story. I saw all these clothing stores, all these clothing boutiques crushing it. So I just noticed a trend. It wasn't the retail apocalypse. It was the apocalypse of big box stores. And people wanted to do business with people. And I really saw this trend of like, hey, this is the rise of small businesses. And actually was trying to bring a few clients onto the firm that I was at. They needed trademark help, and they needed help with LLCs, filing trademarks. And the firm really just didn't want to serve them, which I totally understand. Not their market. Like, hey, we don't want to. We don't want to waste our time with these small businesses. And for me, I just saw a different story. Like, hey, somebody has to go serve these business owners. And so finally, you get the wild hair of, hey, why not me? So, long story short, that's really, really what happened. I always say I manifested getting fired from big law. It's a crazy story. So I was miserable. We were living in Cincinnati at the time, and my family's in Houston, so we wanted to move to Houston. It was a Monday. We put our house for sale on the market Wednesday. I remember texting my husband, like, I'm so miserable. Can I quit today? We have enough money to hold us over. And he said, why don't you just wait until we have a contract on the house? That way we know it's gonna sell. I was like, fair enough. Like, that makes sense. I can do that. Friday morning, the managing partner and my mentor walk into my office, and I immediately knew what was happening. And I'm trying to just have the saddest look on my face. And in the meantime, I was already telling all these small businesses, like, hey, I'm gonna go out on my own soon. Like, just wait until I'm out on my own. I can help you then. And basically, they're like, hey, you know, do you want to be on this pip? Or you can just take this severance and go find a new job. And it was a Friday morning. And they were like, hey, take the weekend. Think about it. Let me tell you, Tyson. They left my office, and I packed up my office so fast, never went back. And they wanted to pay me out over a few months. And I was like, give me the money all up front, no lump sum. Take me off your website. That's it. And I'm like, okay, perfect. Launched my firm that night, had my first client, and that was April 29, April 30, 2018. And we've had Andrea say your law ever since.
- [05:42]
A
That is incredible. Were you scared at the time whenever it happened?
- [05:46]
B
I mean, I was scared only for the fact, like, oh, I hope I'm going to have clients. I think I'm going to have clients. But I had been building so much buzz, and there were so many small. Like, I really just saw this huge need in the marketplace.
- [05:59]
A
And.
- [05:59]
B
And if you're a business owner, like, you always hear like, oh, solve a problem, like, service this problem. And I really had it. And before then, when I heard that, I just thought it was a bunch of crap. I was like, how do you find a problem in the market? But it really just found me. And the other thing that scared me was my husband at the time was not happy. I thought it was the greatest day of my life. I was like, we just got this huge windfall. Now I can start my firm and we have extra money. And. And he was not happy that I got fired. I thought it was the greatest day of my life. But, yeah, went on a wild ride. Honestly. It was kind of like I always had clients. But we moved from Cincinnati to Houston, moved across the country, like, got our life, settled in Houston. So things were kind of slow for a little bit in 2018. Just getting things ready. And then I really hit the ground running in 2019, and my gosh, it was just. It's been a fun, wild ride since then.
- [06:53]
A
So this is interesting about your husband because I was talking to somebody the other day. We're putting on a well, wellness workshop in Phoenix in a few weeks. And it's the reason why we're doing is because life, everything about life affects you whenever you're running a law firm. Right. When. And when you're an employee, too. It does as well, but I think to a lesser extent, but, like, you could have a fight with your spouse, and then you're going straight into the office and you're having to have. Or maybe you're going to a sales meeting, or maybe you're going in and you're. You're having to kind of rally the troops, you know, whatever it may be. And so I wonder what was his, what was his issue with, with you being fired? Was it just the fact that you were fired? I'm so curious about this part of it.
- [07:32]
B
So I mean, it's the fact that we lost our only source of income. He was staying home with our son at the time. So we lose our only source of income in his head. I was going to stick it out at a big firm for a few years and I totally, like there were a lot of things we didn't see eye to eye. And looking back now, like I totally get it. In which we are divorced now. Beautiful co parents have a, the most beautiful relationship as co parents and it just honestly we would have never worked as husband and wife. Like I'm some. He's. He's a very comfortable person and just wants that safety net of comfort. And I'm like, let's take this risk, let's take that risk. Like, we'll figure it out. And so we would have never worked in that way. And he really just saw it as the scariest day of like, wow, we just lost all of our income. Because he really never saw the vision of being an entrepreneur and really being able to make money, more money that way.
- [08:28]
A
So I really wanted to ask you about this. So this is a great segue also, same way did not come from money. So it is, it affects my decision making and I know it affects my decision making. So do you think because you didn't come for money it makes you more of a risk taker? And how does it, how does it affect your decision making?
- [08:47]
B
This is such a funny question. So I'm, and by the way, I'm an open book, so feel free to go whatever direction you want to. So I've always been a risk taker also because I'm a poker player. And it's so funny because I grew up with pretty poor, I mean very low middle class, on the brink of like poverty. But we never went without. Never went without. But looking back realize my brother and I like, we never went without because my parents just incurred a lot of debt for us, which is beautiful, very noble of them. And, but now like trying to change the story for me and my children, it is a struggle. However, my parents also grew up always having house games, like poker games. So I grew up playing poker. People always ask me like, hey, when did you learn how to play? I just came out of the womb playing like, I don't know what you mean. I just, I've always played. So in that sense I've, from a very early age, I've learned how to manage risk, I've learned how to approach risk. And it really is just born in me. And so once I left my ex husband, got divorced, I really went on my own healing journey. And I've been able to get to know myself at such a beautiful deep level that I never knew was possible. And what I've realized is I just trust myself more than anything. And I know, like, hey, I've got my back. I'm going to figure it out. It's going to be all right.
- [10:13]
A
What impact did the divorce have on the firm? I'm curious because that's one of those things. It's the same thing. It's, it's all, it's all tied together. Right. So I, I wonder how it affected business. I mean, did it affect business?
- [10:24]
B
Yes, but not in the way of like he took half, he took this, it affected. Because I always say, like, entrepreneurship is nothing more than a personal development journey. And it affected the firm and the, in the fact that I was in a much different place. I was not able to hold the capacity that I was once able to hold. And I've been struggling, not struggling, but I had a hard time understanding like, hey, I was not happy in this marriage. However, for a long time after I got divorced, my revenue in the firm went down. So 2019 was like my first full year in business. Brought in around 400,000. 2020 was my first million dollar year. 2020, I left my ex husband and 2021 was a million dollar year. And then it kind of just started going down from there. And it took me a long time to understand. And what I realized is like, even though I wasn't fulfilled in the marriage, it was still like a stabilizer for me. And without that stabilizer, it's like, well, what do I have? Because now it's, I don't have, you know, so he was a teacher and he, he did have that comfort, stable salary, like without that to fall back on, like it's just me and my kids, like my back's up against the wall. I really don't have anything to fall back on. So he like working through that, healing that it took me a long time. And now I would say the past couple of years I've been able to learn how to stabilize myself. But going through that really rocked me. Not in the fact that like he took all this money, he took this and it was just me, it was fully energetics learning how to regulate myself, learning how to just be on my own.
- [12:08]
A
So now that you have this, this knowledge that you, that you, you've gained through experience, unfortunately, like, if you were to go back and do things differently, not with the divorce itself, but how you handled things with the firm afterwards, how would, how would you have done things differently if you would have?
- [12:22]
B
I. And of course it's all learning game. Like, if I could go back and do it sooner, I would. But it all comes down to just regulating myself, regulating my nervous system, learning. Because coming from being dirt poor, a lot of people have a hard time even having money, earning money. And there's a big difference between earning money and having money. I like, through my own healing journey, I learned that even though I could make a lot of money, I had a hard time having a lot of money. And that was because I saw growing up like, hey, once you like, you get money, it's just, it's already out the door, it's already paying. You know, getting caught up on these bills, it's, you know, know, getting caught up on this or having. I learned that my nervous system didn't feel safe having money, having good things, so I would actually push away a lot of things. There were. There's been so many times that I've, I've been in a very great place with my firm and I'm like, oh, I just want to burn it all to the ground. I'm just going to sell it. I'm just going to sell it. Like, I don't want to be a business owner anymore. And every single time that I like get to the finish line, like the one yard line, I'm like, I don't think it's time. And of course it's, you know, it's. My system is like, no, we're not selling, like, this isn't right, but there's something here that you've got to work on. And so finally I learned like, oh, I have to learn how to teach my, like I have. My nervous system has to learn how to be safe. Just like being. Because growing up in a chaotic household, you've always got to be like doing something and figuring something out. But when you learn that to just b. Then you can just allow the businesses to operate. And like, if there wasn't a fire I was putting out, I didn't feel safe. So I, my system learned like, hey, you've got to be productive. You have to be putting out fires to be productive and be safe. But now I've learned like, oh, I can just be.
- [14:11]
A
Yeah, that's very interesting. And like, some of the things you're. They're sort of resonating with me too, is making me think about some things. I, I wonder what, what the gambler Andrea, how she operates versus the business owner Andrea. Like, how does. Are those people the same or are they two? Or do you operate differently, I wonder.
- [14:30]
B
They're very much the same. They've gone through very different processes. As in the business owner I was five years ago was the same poker player I was five years ago. So trying to make things happen, trying to fix things, like trying to do things at the table that I shouldn't have been doing as far as, like, trying to pull this bluff off or trying to like, pull this off on somebody. And now it's just learning, like, hey, I have this presence about me where I actually don't have to be doing. I don't have to be doing these big performances, like, who I am is enough as a business owner, as a poker player, as a mother, and I don't have to do these big grand performances, which I hope that makes sense. But it's really like, my energy used to feel like I have to be doing, doing, doing, achieving, achieving ach. And proving myself. And now it's just like, hey, I'm enough. Who I am, what I bring is enough, and that's it.
- [15:28]
A
So I completely understand what you're saying. And so I'm going to twist a little bit because I, I do, I do wonder. It's kind of like with anything, with change, because a lot of people think, oh my God, I've got to make this massive change in my life. A lot of times it's just very small things. Like, I'll give you an example. I, I ran to the, this guy at the gym and he was, I saw that he's been losing a ton of weight, right? And this was like last year. And I said, what did you do to lose so much weight? And he goes, you know, it's, it's the dumbest thing. But I stopped going to restaurants that have a drive through. And I said, what?
- [16:01]
B
Interesting.
- [16:02]
A
That's all I did. He said, from a. Because a lot of times at the gym, they're telling us, like, losing the weight, that is, that's a diet issue. So that's, they, they coach us on dieting, all that. But whenever, like, gaining muscle, like, that's what we can do for. We can help you gain muscle. I will kind of circle this back to, to my point. I wonder if part of this is that you learned, like with gambling and with the firm, that it's just incremental changes. It's not massive changes. It's just the incremental changes.
- [16:26]
B
A hundred percent. 100%. And even speaking to weight, last year I actually lost 30 pounds in the first, like three months of 2025. Literally just cutting out alcohol.
- [16:40]
A
Whoa. Holy. Are you. Are you back on the wagon? I am. Do you still drink at all, I wonder? I'm very curious.
- [16:47]
B
Not really. And what. So I ran the Houston Half Marathon in the middle of January, 2025, and I started the year saying, like, oh, I'm not going to drink until after the race. Just, you know, to really lock in for the race. And I noticed how good I felt. And so after the race, I said, oh, I want to see how long I can go without drinking alcohol. I'm telling you, I did nothing. I wasn't running anymore after the race. I wasn't working out. Literally just cut out alcohol because. So I was in a relationship and we would go to the bar till 2am, go home and eat Taco Bell or Waffle House at 2 or 3am and it was just a. It was not a great lifestyle. So just cutting that out. I shed 30 pounds doing nothing other than cutting out alcohol. And it was just a tiny, tiny change.
- [17:36]
A
That's fascinating. So, because about alcohol, it's not just the alcohol, because I. I had a similar experience where we did. My wife and I, we did 75 hard a few years ago, and then we did phases one, two, and three after it. And part of that, you can't have alcohol. And what I found is, like, I didn't want alcohol anymore. Like, at this point, I probably bet 100. I. Less. I probably have about less than 100 because I've been giving away bottles of bourbon, but I've got about 100 bottles of bourbon rough, roughly, give or take. And so I've got this massive bourbon bar and I rarely ever now consume at all. But it was like I went forever because just, I just felt so wonderful. But it's. The other thing is, like, right. So I noticed that our. Our tabs. Not. Not our tabs. Our. Our bills at restaurants way lower. Right. Like, we don't spend nearly as much when we go out to eat. I feel better. I don't make bad decisions in the middle of the night where I'm getting Taco Bell. Like the same. The same thing, exactly. It's. It's all of those things. And I mean, I'm not. I'M not poo pooing anybody that drinks. You can drink all you want. That's fine. I have an occasional beverage, but I can tell you, since I don't drink as much, I. I have the exact same experience as you.
- [18:43]
B
My body actually rejects alcohol now. I. Well, I was starting to get that feeling where I would have just a couple of drinks and I just didn't feel good. And like, the hangovers were worse and I'm just like. I feel like my body doesn't enjoy this anymore. And I went to Europe over the summer with my best friend. First night there, we went to dinner, had a couple of drinks just to celebrate. Have a great time. I went home and puked. I. I had like one or two drinks and I was like, I like my body legitimately. Just rejects alcohol now. And I. I've had probably five drinks over the past year.
- [19:19]
A
Wild.
- [19:20]
B
Yeah.
- [19:21]
A
So I wanna. I wanna get back this back to the firm. You had said something about having conversations with your network of business owners and all that, and it made me. Conversation I had with my mom last night. So as we speak, they're actually signing paperwork to sell their business.
- [19:35]
B
Nice.
- [19:36]
A
It's. It's a business that unfortunately, they bought after I was an adult, so now I didn't get the benefits when I was a kid.
- [19:42]
B
Yeah.
- [19:43]
A
So they started this business and very successful and all that, which is. I'm so happy for them. But she was telling me, she's like, you know, Tyson, I just. Or she says, son. She's a little, you know, son. I just. They don't warn you. No one tells you or like, what emotions you go through, because they've had this business now for. See, they. They got it whenever I was in the army, the. So 20, so 2002. So they've had it for about 24 years. She's like, they don't warn you for, like, all the emotions you go through when it comes to selling your business. And I wonder how do you counsel your. Your clients when it comes like, trademarks and all that? I know it's not the same as selling the business, but there is emotion involved in things like that. So I wonder how you coach your clients for situations like that.
- [20:27]
B
Yeah. And I. I've gone through this with businesses selling their businesses. I've had a number of clients back out. They're like, I just can't let go. I can't let go. It's not time. And. And honestly, this is the reason why I didn't like big law, because they just. They didn't care about the business the same way that small businesses do, because it really is their baby. And it's a beautiful emotional relationship. I mean, it can be a codependent relationship, it can be a toxic relationship that you have with. But working on myself has allowed me to counsel my clients in a more beautiful way, especially when it comes to these issues, like if somebody's infringing on their trademark, if somebody is trying to cancel their business online for whatever reason. It's an emotional journey no matter what. And being a small business owner, you're tied so much more to it. You have such more of an emotional attachment to the business and even learning compassion. Like I had no emotional intelligence whatsoever growing up. I was not taught, I taught myself emotional intelligence in my 20s. And so it was a whole new way to even look at the businesses and look at my clients and even working with my clients. And I realized how much better my relationships were with my clients, bringing that emotional touch to it. Because, and you can ask anybody that knew me growing up, and this is why I'm also a great poker player, because I have no, like, I would show no emotion. I still can separate at the poker table. But learning emotions at a later age benefited me in a lot of ways. But now as a business owner and I think I don't want to like dive into AI. But even now with like the rise of AI, they say like, hey, I have an emotional intelligence. Like that's what's happening actually going to set you apart. So being able to bring that to business owners, I mean, that is what's going to set you apart. I feel like I'm going on a tangent not answering the question. So if you want to remind me.
- [22:29]
A
You totally are, because I actually, I've got a question that's related to that, but I just want to make a comment too. So emotional intelligence is so important and I do wonder. I actually think that I might be better than a lot of people at emotional intelligence. And I guess the way I kind of look at emotional intelligence, it's, it's the ability to take a short term loss for a long term gain. Because there are many times where like I'll be dealing with one of our teammates where they'll be like, well, we're right on this issue, right? Like it's like, and we might be right on whatever the thing is, right? Maybe it's a vendor that's trying to charge us too much or I don't. You name the thing. But sometimes for, for a strategic reason, you want to be able to step back and no, hold on a second. Let's give them this win because, you know, in six months, guess what? That renewal comes up and we're gonna have a lot more leverage, you know, and I'm just making up a scenario, but it's really that ability to take that, that short term loss and get, and make that for that long term gain because so many people, they want to just be right, they want to win. And I bet poker is the exact same way. Sometimes you have to fold because you're doing it for some strategic reason. Maybe, maybe the, and I'm, I don't know jack about poker. You're about to find that out with, with some, some of my comments. But I'm guessing that maybe they know, they know when you're bluffing. They've kind of caught on to what your, what your routine is, your pattern. And so you've got to occasionally fold even though you've got a winning hand. Just to throw them off is my guess. Is that kind of how it works?
- [23:58]
B
Yes, exactly. Yeah. And that's what I counsel clients on as well. It's like, hey, this may be the legal answer. You may be legally right. However, how is that going to make you look to the public? How is that going to affect you with this client, with this relationship, with this contract? So there's, there's, I mean, there's always, we always say like there's three sides or two sides to every story. But when I counsel clients on these issues, I say, hey, here's the truth, here's the legal answer. But practically, how are we going to handle this? And oftentimes it's, it's different than what the legal answer is because, I mean, chances are we're not going to sue any, I'm not going to sue anybody.
- [24:39]
A
But I might.
- [24:42]
B
I always talk about I'm too lazy for that. Like, not me, not me. But I tell clients, like, hey, look, legally, here's the answer. But let's, like, let's talk about this realistically, the practical way we're going to handle this because we do have to bring emotion into it. Because yeah, you can go and send this cease and desist letter, you can send this, you know, tell them this, but then what is that going to do to your brand? What are they going to try and do to your brand? Are they going to try and run you through the mud online? Are they going to go to their local news station? Like, how is this going to affect you in the public eye? So it's having different conversations but also knowing how to handle those. Because if you don't, if you don't know how to handle those conversations, you may just say, yeah, you can sue her, go ahead, do that. Or yeah, let's send this mean letter and you know, tell them we're going to do this, that and the other. But they don't know who they're even handling, dealing with. And then it ends up biting them even harder in the butt because we know like, yeah, legally you can be right, but if the public eye says something, if something different, your business is done completely well.
- [25:44]
A
Okay, let's talk a little bit about that. So you've had a lot of success with trademark and you've done a great job. I, I wonder what do you think actually separates like top performing law firms from, from everyone else? Like if you look at like the Morgan of Morgans of the world, like had massive success, you know, like and, and you could even go like on a smaller scale. I mean you, I mean you could throw a darter in your market, you know, no matter what your market is, you'd have 10 people in a row. Two are highly successful, the other eight are not. I, I wonder what do you, what do you think separates the high performers from the non.
- [26:16]
B
The non high performers having clients, number one. I used to always say, and I don't mean this in a, at a jab at being a great lawyer, but I used to always say I don't care how great of a lawyer I am if I don't have clients. Because it actually doesn't matter if you don't have clients because then you can't even be a lawyer if you have nobody to serve. So you have to have clients completely.
- [26:39]
A
So I used to speak at, I haven't actually done it in a couple of years, but I used to speak at, for, at SLU some law school classes and the, it was a law practice management. So they'd bring in law firm owners to talk about their firms and I would always ask the question, what do you all think is the most important part about running a law firm? And it was always, oh, ethics and making sure you do a really good job for the client and make sure it's, it was as I said, all of you are wrong. It's, it's getting clients. Because if you don't get clients, you can do none of those other things. All of those other things are really, really important. But if you have no one to represent, then it does not matter.
- [27:17]
B
Literally does not matter. And I find it so ironic because I used to say that all the time because I used to do coaching, some coaching, and I really don't do it anymore. But when I would talk to attorneys, I would tell them, like, hey, like, you're obsessed with being this perfect attorney, but that actually doesn't matter if you don't have anybody to serve. And I was always like, I wanted to do a great job, the best job I could for the client, but that was not my number one priority. And I find it so ironic because all the trademark rankings came out and I ended up I was this really highly ranked trademark attorney. And I think that just goes to show, like once you, like when you are focused on the right things, you're going to have clients, you're going to perform well, you're going to do a good job, but you just have to know the priority of what to focus on as a business owner.
- [28:10]
A
You know, what's interesting is you're, you're so right. And if you were to, let's say you were to line up, you know, 10 attorneys, I don't know, I keep going on the theme of 10, but 10 attorneys, one was a marketer and then nine were not marketers, I guess. Which would you hire, the marketer or would you hire the, the other one of the other attorneys?
- [28:30]
B
Honestly, it depends what I'm looking for. I, I always say, you know, you're either looking for a 1, 2, 3, er or a figure outer. That's just my term.
- [28:39]
A
Okay, I want to, I want to know more about this. What does this mean? Okay, yes, this is, we hit on something great.
- [28:44]
B
A one, two, three year is somebody that you tell them, hey, I need you to do 1, 2, 3. They're going to do 1, 2, 3. Nothing, nothing less. You need those people and they're, they're the doers in the firm. They're going to file everything for you. They're going to make sure everything gets done, but they're not going to figure things out. The figure outers are those that you want them to use their brain and just figure things out. You say, hey, I need this done. And they go and make it, make it work. You don't have to tell them like, hey, you have to do 1, 2, 3 to get it done. They just go and figure it out. And that's what a marketer is.
- [29:15]
A
That's very interesting. Well, and the reason why I asked that, I love those terms, by the way, and I completely get what you're talking about. The reason why I ask is because Sometimes the marketer though, even though, especially in PI, they make a terrible employee. They're, they're, they can actually be good at bringing in clients. But as an actual doer, as a, as a 1, 2, 3, er, or even as a figure it outer, they don't, they don't do well in litigation. I mean, they're basically just trying to spend all their time getting clients is what they're trying to do, which I get that. But for us, we're, we're already doing that. Like that's, we already have a team that does that. And I don't need. If I'm going to hire you, I'm not going to hire you just for you to build up your book of business and leave. That's what happens in PI all the time. So I think, but I think you're right. I'm very curious. Do you, do you all do the Colby? It's, it's not really a personality test, but do you have any, do you have your employees take Colby or anything like that or disc or anything like that?
- [30:05]
B
No, I should.
- [30:06]
A
Well, it's very interesting because like, what you described is basically the 1, 2, 3 or is more like a fact finder, it seems like. And then the, the doer or that the, the marketer is more of like that. The high, quick start kind of a thing, which I think is kind of an interesting thing.
- [30:21]
B
I'm very intuitive and so I don't have any official processes. I, I'm very woo. Very intuitive. So I just know I, I have my gut feelings and I've been wrong. Don't get me. I've been wrong. I will say when I have been wrong is when I have been not in tune with myself. But when I'm on it and I know, like, hey, I'm in a good place, I'm in alignment. My gut is on. Like, it is spot on. So that, and that comes back to the trusting myself, knowing I. Knowing I trust myself and knowing that I'm going to figure it out. And I will say, since I've cut out alcohol, I have been in alignment for a very long time.
- [31:01]
A
How do you know you're in alignment? I'm very curious. Is there like, do you go through a routine or something? How do you figure it out?
- [31:06]
B
I don't go through a routine. I, It's. I just feel it. I feel it. And I know some of you listening are like, oh my God, you're rolling your eyes. I was the same way. I was the same way. But honestly, going through my own healing journey and just getting to know myself on a deeper level. That's what I've been able to know. And I do know the test that I do know. I know my astrology, I know my human design and human design and like my, I have a very strong sacral energy. So it's very much that gut feeling. I can't go into a lot of details about. I just don't know other stuff about it. I just know that I have a very strong sacral energy, which means that I feel it in my gut. I. When I know it, I know it.
- [31:47]
A
That's cool. I think the fact that you're, you are self aware, I think that's about, that's very powerful. So that's a lot of value in that. Your Instagram bio says trademarks and poker. And so I think that there are a lot of people that are hesitant to put things like, I think it's great, by the way. So I want to make sure I'm very clear. I think it's great. But I, but I do think there's some people that are hesitant to sort of reveal that much about themselves. I mean, especially when it comes to like poker, maybe they're a little bit resistant. So walk me through your decision to market yourself, if you want to call it that in that way.
- [32:21]
B
Honestly, this came at a time, probably 23 or 24, because there was a period, I would say 22, 20, 22, 2023, where I was starting to get burned out by the firm, the businesses, and I would, I felt like I was spinning my wheels and just wasn't going anywhere. And that's when I really started to lean more into poker, which I'm very grateful that I had the firm to lean back on, to really like take a step back, because I spent a couple of years there where I did not work very much. I had my, my team was great and we had a lot of recurring revenue, so I didn't have to spend a lot of time working, which is beautiful. So I could really lean into poker. And it was during this time where I really started to give myself permission to be me. So growing up in a very chaotic household, very traditional Hispanic household, you have a very enmeshed family. It's family above everything. And it was in this time where I started to realize, like, oh, like that's their thing. That's actually not my thing. And it was this where I gave my. There where I gave myself permission, like, oh, I don't have to fit into this attorney bubble or this Mother bubble or this bubble or that bubble. I can just be all the things that I want to be. And funny enough, I actually had a partnership last year with stamps.com and in their contract, they had something about not posting gambling. And I was like, we've got to take that out, bud. And it was just like a normal, like, very boilerplate for them. And I was like, I'm not removing any content. Like, nothing will be removed. I, like, I will not post about it, you know, around these certain times. And I just learned that we are going to attract the people that are meant for us and repel the ones that aren't. And if you're not being yourself, you're going to attract the wrong people. You're going to repel the wrong people if you're trying to be someone else. So I've learned that the more authentic you are, the more magnetic you are for the right people. And there are some attorneys that get in a lot of trouble with gambling and poker. But I've just learned it's just who I am. And I. Well, I actually. So I didn't play poker for eight to 10 years when I was married. And so coming out of that, I realized, oh, I'm never going to have somebody tell me what I can. I cannot do ever again. And that's really what also helped me lean into it, was realizing, like, oh, I can just be who I want to be. And. Which sounds very elementary, but growing up in a very Hispanic household, you are who the family says you are. And finally I learned, like, oh, I can just be me. And I like trademarks, I like poker, I like a lot of things, and that's just who I am.
- [35:14]
A
I'm hearing that you're. You finally started to become authentic, actually be who you are.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah.
- [35:20]
A
Which is really interesting. And because I don't really want to dwell on the. The marriage part of things. I really don't. But I. I do wonder, do you think if you hadn't gotten divorced, you wouldn't. You. You would have. Would not have found this version of you?
- [35:34]
B
I mean, probably not. I just don't think there's ever a time where I was. Wouldn't get divorced. Like, I. You don't get married thinking you're gonna get divorced. But there was finally a point where it was just like that, this isn't this. This ain't it. Like this. This isn't it.
- [35:52]
A
Well, the reason why I'm asking this too, is it's not to ask more about the divorce. It's really more of like, how can people, people help find their authentic self? I hate, I hate that phrase. I hate that I, I just said it, but I, you know what I mean? Like, how do you, how do you discover that authenticity? If you, let's say you're, you're an attorney that's been running a firm for 20 years. You've been struggling because you, you've not really been able to be who you want to be, I guess. What is your advice to those people?
- [36:17]
B
Yeah, anytime you're questioning it and, and I still have to ask myself this, I asked myself this this morning. It's like, hey, is this what I want or is this what so and so wants? Or is this what I think they want or what I think somebody else wants or is this what I want? And you have to be unapologetic about it. And that's a big step for some people because you're afraid of hurting somebody else. You're afraid of making somebody mad, upsetting them, and you have to let that go. I don't like the let them theory, like the Mel Robbins thing, but I've learned I have to let people be mad. They're allowed to be mad. And that's, for me, that's come into learning emotional intelligence and learning like, hey, if you're doing something, hoping for this certain act or this certain behavior of somebody else, that's actually manipulation. And we have to learn what we want by just continuing to ask yourself over and over, like, hey, is this what I want or am I doing this because somebody else wants it? I don't. Or because I don't want somebody else to be mad.
- [37:19]
A
This is really interesting. I love this conversation because it's, it reminds me of. I like to follow the philosophy. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do what I want to do kind of a thing, which is sort of the let them philosophy in a way. But it reminds me of this guy I follow on X where he. On Thanksgiving, he's got a lot of followers by the way. He's very well known. He, on Thanksgiving he sits in the car and watches football or something like that and does and like eats something that he ordered some fast food that he ordered and does not go into his in laws house and doesn't hang out with him. And to me that completely lacks an emotional intelligence because they, they, okay, you're, you're doing what you want, you're letting them be mad. But you're also like the, the consequences of those actions are also pretty severe. So I think that people it's sometimes people hear things like what Mel Rollins would say and take it absolutely literal and they want to just do everything. Oh, I'm going to do everything I want to do. But there's a lot of consequences to that, too. So I guess we talk a little bit about that.
- [38:21]
B
Yeah. So it's also, like, because I was just thinking about this, I like to travel. My children do not like when I travel because obviously they want mommy there all the time. And like, so January I went to Mississippi for a poker tournament. December I went to Vegas for a poker tournament. And they were very upset both times, which is understandable. I would hate. I hated when my parents traveled. But also, I use it as a teaching moment because I teach my kids how to be upset. Like, hey, it is so valid for you to be upset that Mommy's leaving. Like, yes, of course you want Mommy to be here 24 7. But also, I want my children to see that I'm out living my life after I have kids. So many women are not going to go on that trip because they don't want the kids to be upset. It is okay for them to be upset. That's our teaching moment to teach them how to be upset. And it's how to teach the consistency. Like, hey, you don't want Mommy to leave, Guess what? Mommy is going to leave, but Mommy's also coming back. And guess what? Mommy's going to bring you a present when she comes back. Mommy's going to call you on this day. They want consistency. They want consistency. They want to know you're coming home in that situation. Like, he's just not even considering. I don't want to assume anything, but it sounds like he's probably not even considering the wife's feelings, the children, the in laws. It's about also considering. So it's okay to let them be upset, but also, how can you let them know they're still being considered, like, hey, actually your parents don't like to watch this particular football game. I really love this football game. So I'm gonna go spend my time to watch this football game and then I will be in to go and enjoy time with the family. I will be in there and I'm going to do this with the family. But hey, this carve out time, like, this is what I need for me. But without that conversation, it's just like fu f the family. I'm going to go and watch this football game. But it's about also counseling and coaching them through it.
- [40:22]
A
I think those parenting lessons are really important. And it. I think you're doing a lot of things that they're. We all are. Like, we're doing. We do these things that they pick up on. And so I think you probably gave up alcohol at the right time. You know, we're like, they're saying, okay, it's okay occasionally, but not all the time. You know, like, and like, you know, you're taking care of yourself. Like, you're making sure that you're. You're still enjoying life. And I, I think all of that, those, those lessons are really, really important. So it sounds like you're. You're doing all the right things. I mean, we're not always doing the right things all the time. We all, we all make mistakes. But it sounds like you're doing a great job. So that's really, really awesome.
- [40:57]
B
Thank you.
- [40:58]
A
Before we kind of wrap things up, because we only have about 10 minutes left, but I do want to ask, if people wanted to reach out to you, wanted to follow you, what is the best way for them to follow you? Reach out if they have questions, what's the best way to do that?
- [41:09]
B
Honestly, Instagram's the best. I have a lot of fun over there. I post just whatever I'm doing my morning workouts, any. Any softball, baseball with the kids and the other, going back to teaching the kids. Like, I tell them, like, hey, I'm traveling at this point because during this time of the year, Mommy can't do anything. Mommy is glued to the baseball and softball field, running y' all around and at practice every day. And so it's, it's teaching them like, hey, Mommy takes these seasons, so that way I can be fully present at different times. But yeah, Instagram at Andrea Sager Law.
- [41:44]
A
Really good. A little bit about your team. So it's my understanding that your team is fully remote. And I. So I wonder what's systems or expectations made that possible without chaos.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah, so we, we were. We've been fully remote before, COVID Always been remote. I honestly give them a lot of freedom and partly because I want the freedom. And when I was working at a firm, I didn't have the freedom. And we all have lives, we have families. And I don't want you to be glued to your computer from eight to five every single day. If your kids have pickup and you want to be there at pickup if you're. I will never forget my son's first birthday when I was working at the big firm. I took a half day and I could just feel all the eyes on Me walking out of the office to take him to the aquarium, and I was like, never again. So everybody's fully remote. They actually get unlimited time off. They can take off whenever they want. They can work whatever hours they want. But generally available from like the 9 to 4, 9 to 5. And all the client facing communication is done between business hours. And I just felt like, hey, if you're getting your work done, if everything's done on time, like, I don't, I don't care what you do if it takes you. And that. Because this used to kill me too. When I was at the firm, when they would tell me, hey, make sure you take your time on this. And it would take me 30 minutes and they wanted me to build two or three hours. Oh, like, I don't want to waste my time looking for something that we know does not exist, but you need to show the client that you spent this. Like, it just. I hate. There's so many little things that I hated in big law that I knew, like, hey, this is going to be different in my firm. And so I. We have a lot of trust in the firm and just know, like, hey, deadlines don't get missed and we, we get things done.
- [43:37]
A
You're kind of. It's funny, you've been traumatized. I feel like I've got some of that trauma too from whenever I worked for a volume PI firm where I got criticized because we got. We always got the day after Thanksgiving off. So we got Thanksgiving off, day after Thanksgiving. And then on Monday morning, my boss was waiting on me, wondering why I had not come in on Saturday.
- [43:54]
B
So I was like, oh, my gosh. No.
- [43:58]
A
I was like, oh, Jesus. Yeah. I do wonder, though, how it sounds like you've done a good job of setting up some boundaries for your team members. What sort of boundaries have you set up for yourself so that you don't fall into that trap of, oh my gosh, I've got this deadline coming up, we got this practice. Maybe I can skip the practice this time. Maybe I can have. Have someone else take the kids or. Like, how do you. How do you prevent from falling into that trap?
- [44:19]
B
Well, it took a while to get there. I. So it took me a long. It took years to get to where I am now. I used to work so much. I would work from the time I woke up to. Because when I. When we had the two kids and I was married, I would work from like 8 to 5. I would forget to take a lunch, I would forget to eat, spend some time with the Kids put them to bed and work some more. Little did I know I was working so much because I just was trying to escape my marriage, my home life. But getting through that, I then started to put those time boundaries on where so being remote, I calendly is my number one app. Just send everybody that link, schedule a call slowly. I would. I block out an hour for lunch every single day. That was like my first big milestone. I was like, oh my gosh, I have an hour off every day. But then I started blocking off days. So Fridays I try not to work at all. Certain days I won't take client calls. Tuesdays and Thursdays I have my kids and like, the first couple years they were in elementary, they didn't really say anything. Like, they enjoyed my dad picking them up from school. But then they started asking, like, hey, we want you to pick us up. So now Tuesdays and Thursdays, I don't take a call after 2. I'm there for pickup. They also get upset if I don't take them to practice. So I take. They. They do understand, like, hey, there's every once in a while where I have a call in the evening if I'm doing like a webinar or some kind of training for somebody. So they, they understand that. But I have learned to be very intentional with that time because another thing I didn't share was I actually didn't want kids when I had my son in law school. That was because my husband at the time, he wanted kids. And we had the conversation like, you are the primary parent. You are the one that is primarily responsible for the children. So when I got divorced, it was a lot trying to figure out, what do I do. Like, I actually didn't want to be a parent. I want to be here for my kids, like now. And it was just really trying to reconcile, like, wait, I didn't even really want to be a mom. And I switched it now to, like, I didn't know yet. I wanted to be a mom because now, like, I love being a mom. Like, I love being able to be so present with them and, like, teach them all these things and teach them about life and emotional intelligence. And just like, being a mom, like, it actually truly fulfills me now. And I love that they can see me being a business owner. They can see. And I learned that I didn't want to be a mom because I felt like a burden as a child. And this was probably six months ago, we were driving to school, and my daughter, she was like, we have to have kids, right? I don't even know where this came from. And I'm telling you, this is like 7:00am and I'm like, almost in tears. And she's like, we have to have kids, right? And I was like, no, you don't have to if you don't want to. And both of my kids, they're like, no, we want to have kids. And I was like, oh, my God. I think that means because y' all feel so loved. So I'm like, almost in tears at 7am in the morning. I was like, y' all have such a great day. I love y' all so much.
- [47:30]
A
That is incredible. I am. You know what? I was gonna ask you one more, but I'm not going to. I want to leave it there. That's a great way of ending it. I think that's. That's a great story. I love that. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for opening up on this. I always enjoy these kinds of conversations, especially when someone's really willing, like you are to open up about your entire life. So I really appreciate that. And anyone that wants to reach out to you, go to Instagram. It's. It's Andrea Sager at Andrea Sager Law. Is that right?
- [47:56]
B
Yes, at Andrea Sager Law. You can also shoot me an email andrea@andreasager.com.
- [48:02]
A
Thank you, Andrea. Really appreciate it.
- [48:17]
B
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