Transitioning from Prosecutor to Criminal Defense Attorney with Thomas Moskal

Summary

Maximum Lawyer Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Transitioning from Prosecutor to Criminal Defense Attorney with Thomas Moskal
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Thomas Moskal
Release Date: January 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Maximum Lawyer, host Tyson Mutrux engages in a deep conversation with Thomas Moskal about his remarkable transition from a seasoned prosecutor to a successful criminal defense attorney. The discussion delves into the motivations, challenges, and strategic decisions that shaped Moskal's career shift, offering valuable lessons for lawyers contemplating similar moves.

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Tyson’s Experience as Chief Deputy District Attorney

Tyson begins by outlining his tenure as the Chief Deputy District Attorney in Clark County, Nevada. He describes his role as both prestigious and demanding, handling serious felony cases and jury trials from the outset.

[00:30] Tyson Mutrux: "I was a prosecutor for about seven years... handling a bunch of serious cases."

He highlights how working in a high-stakes environment equipped him with invaluable skills for his future in criminal defense.

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Catalysts for Transition

Several personal and professional factors influenced Tyson's decision to leave the DA's office. The COVID-19 pandemic's return-to-office mandate in May 2021 was a significant trigger, coupled with a desire to spend more time with his young son.

[02:17] Tyson Mutrux: "I wasn't feeling coming back into the office... I wasn't getting time with the kids."

The unexpected death of his uncle further cemented his resolve to pursue a different path, emphasizing the importance of seizing opportunities before it's too late.

[02:25] Tyson Mutrux: "Momorrow's not promised... If I'm gonna make a change, I'm gonna do this."

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Starting Solo Practice

After leaving the DA's office, Tyson planned to take a year off to reassess his career. However, immediate referrals from his extensive network of courthouse contacts propelled him into solo practice sooner than anticipated.

[07:01] Tyson Mutrux: "They heard I wasn't at the DA's office anymore... references were coming in automatically."

He recounts his initial challenges, such as lacking a formal office setup and payment processing systems, which he swiftly overcame to accommodate his growing client base.

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Leveraging Prosecutorial Experience in Defense

Tyson emphasizes how his prosecutorial background became a cornerstone of his defense practice. His deep understanding of the prosecutorial mindset allows him to anticipate moves and strategize effectively.

[13:49] Tyson Mutrux: "If you really look at it... I feel bad for the clients."

He contrasts his approach with that of many solo attorneys who rush to plea deals without thoroughly defending their clients, showcasing his commitment to higher standards of advocacy.

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Market Dynamics in Criminal Defense

The conversation shifts to the broader landscape of criminal defense in Las Vegas. Tyson notes a lack of a dominant figure in the local market, creating a "vacuum" that he aspires to fill through quality representation and strategic marketing.

[12:12] Tyson Mutrux: "There isn't one person who's considered like, oh, he's the guy... It's pretty much word of mouth."

He discusses the prevalence of low-cost defense attorneys who prioritize high-volume case intake over effective litigation, a trend he actively counters by offering bespoke defense services at higher rates.

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Marketing and Client Acquisition

Tyson shares his approach to marketing, which relies heavily on his reputation from the DA's office, resulting in warm referrals without extensive advertising. However, he acknowledges the growing importance of digital marketing and social media in expanding his reach.

[07:14] Tyson Mutrux: "It's automatic networking just by being in court every day."

He also touches on the effectiveness of Google Ads and local search ads, balancing between warm leads and the challenges of scaling his solo practice.

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Pricing Strategies and Value Perception

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Tyson's pricing strategy. He distinguishes himself from low-cost attorneys by charging premium rates, which reflects the value and quality of his defense services.

[09:12] Tyson Mutrux: "I charge $20,000... It's a real serious case."

He explains that higher fees allow him to provide more comprehensive and effective representation, contrasting with the often superficial handling by lower-priced counterparts.

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Scaling Solo Practice

Tyson explores the difficulties of scaling a criminal defense practice, emphasizing the unique challenges compared to other legal fields like personal injury or family law. He highlights the intensive time commitment required for court appearances and case management.

[33:31] Tyson Mutrux: "Criminal defense is a huge grind. A lot of guys can wear on them."

He discusses potential strategies for growth, such as automation and selective marketing, while maintaining low overhead by operating virtually without a physical office.

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Reflections on Partnership Attempts

The episode recounts Tyson's unsuccessful attempt to partner with another attorney, detailing the red flags and the eventual fallout that reinforced his preference for solo practice.

[59:11] Tyson Mutrux: "I saw some red flags that came up and it actually ended up really bad."

This experience underscored the importance of aligning visions and maintaining control over his practice's direction.

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Daily Operations and Time Management

Tyson describes a typical day, balancing intense court schedules with client consultations and personal responsibilities. He emphasizes the importance of efficient time management and the ongoing need to refine business processes to handle increasing caseloads.

[63:17] Tyson Mutrux: "Tuesday will be a busy day for me... it's a long day."

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Personal Life and Work-Life Balance

Balancing his demanding career with personal life, Tyson shares how fatherhood and personal interests, like working out and playing guitar, provide necessary grounding and prevent burnout.

[75:36] Tyson Mutrux: "I'm a dad... I get to the gym every day around 10 in the morning."

He highlights the significance of maintaining hobbies and personal well-being alongside professional growth.

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Future Plans and Goals

Looking ahead, Tyson aspires to scale his criminal defense practice by enhancing marketing efforts and potentially automating certain business processes. He envisions reaching financial independence, allowing him to focus more on high-value cases and less on day-to-day operations.

[84:08] Tyson Mutrux: "I'm looking to figure out how I can scale criminal... I'm in a position where I'm working... financial independence."

He also considers exploring federal cases with higher fee structures, aiming to specialize in areas with substantial attorney fee provisions.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Thomas Moskal and Tyson Mutrux reflecting on the journey of transitioning from prosecution to defense. Tyson's story underscores the importance of leveraging past experiences, maintaining high standards, and strategically managing business operations to achieve success in solo practice. Listeners are left with actionable insights on balancing professional ambitions with personal fulfillment in the legal field.

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Notable Quotes

• [02:17] Tyson Mutrux: "If I'm gonna make a change, I'm gonna do this."
• [07:14] Tyson Mutrux: "It's automatic networking just by being in court every day."
• [09:12] Tyson Mutrux: "I charge $20,000... It's a real serious case."
• [13:49] Tyson Mutrux: "If you really look at it... I feel bad for the clients."
• [33:31] Tyson Mutrux: "Criminal defense is a huge grind. A lot of guys can wear on them."
• [75:36] Tyson Mutrux: "I'm a dad... I get to the gym every day around 10 in the morning."
• [84:08] Tyson Mutrux: "I'm looking to figure out how I can scale criminal... I'm in a position where I'm working... financial independence."

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This episode serves as an essential guide for legal professionals considering a shift from prosecution to defense, offering practical advice and real-world experiences to navigate the complexities of private practice.

Transcript

[Tyson Mutrix]

This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, Thomas, welcome to the show.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Thomas Moscow]

You bet. So I want to start with your. Your role that you had before starting your firm. Okay. And so you were the chief deputy district attorney, is that right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. I mean, it's a fancy title. I was a prosecutor.

[Thomas Moscow]

It does sound like a fancy title.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Chief is. Once you get the promotion, it's kind of like making partner here in Clark County, Nevada.

[Thomas Moscow]

Gotcha.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You make chief after five years, get a pay bump, and you get the title. But, yeah, I was a prosecutor for about seven years. County handling. You know, think about Clark County. That's different from a lot of prosecutorial agencies. Not that I worked for them, but I've heard is Clark County. You start out, I mean, they throw you right into felonies. You're doing trials right away, jury trials right away. So handled a bunch of serious cases, did it for about seven years.

[Thomas Moscow]

How's that helped your. Your. Your practice as a criminal defense attorney?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, it's everything. I mean, the way I actually fell into solo practice is after Covid, they made us come back to the office. It was May 2021. That was the. The order we're coming back to the office. And I started coming back to the office, and having not been in there for a while, I just wasn't feeling coming back into the office like a lot of people in America. And so about four weeks in, I was handling this real serious case out here. About five bicyclists got killed by this DUI driver. And I was the lead DUI death prosecutor in Vegas for years. I handled all the big cases, and this one was a big one. And the police messed it up. They really messed it up. I'd never seen such a clear case of coerced consent. And everybody who looked at the case and knew that. So a motion to suppress comes blood, results are tossed. Going to have trouble in this case. Five people killed, two people hurt. And I got the case dealt. I got a good result out of the case. But the day of sentencing, it was June 3rd, 2021. I gave Da Sten my notice two hours before sentencing. I said, you know, I think I'm going to be out of here. And it wasn't just that, but I wasn't feeling coming back to the office. My son was 2 years old. Like a lot of attorneys, you're not getting time with the kids, and everybody says you're going to regret not spending time with your kids.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's true.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. I mean, if I got one superpower in my life. It's like, I can take advice from somebody, and if it rings true to me, I can change my entire perspective on life.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so my uncle also passed away a few days before that. Pulmonary embolism.

[Thomas Moscow]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It just came out of nowhere. So I got a phone call like he didn't. Like he died. Everybody was surprised, so that kind of gave me the extra push. It was a lot of things.

[Thomas Moscow]

Was that. Oh. So I was going to ask. Was like, there were a. Like, some moment that happened where was like that, The. The moment that pushed you or was there. You said it was a lot of things, but, like, do you think you would have done it if he hadn't. If he hadn't passed?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I had already talked to my direct supervisor that I was planning to leave the office.

[Thomas Moscow]

All right, so you. You had already kind of committed.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, just to him. It was informal. We were really good friends, but I just wanted to give him a heads up. And I was like, you know, I'm going to try and make it to the end of the year. You know, I had some cases I'd been handling for years. The families trusted me.

[Thomas Moscow]

Where were we in the year at this point?

[Tyson Mutrix]

This is like. This is May.

[Thomas Moscow]

May. Okay. So you. You were going to put another seven months in.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I. And I'd been ruminating on this for months and months and months. I tried everything. Meditating, taking a walk outside, you know, the walks in nature.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, walks are nice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Workout, breathing exercises. What's that? The Iceman, where he does that vim Hof method. I was doing that every night. I was trying everything to change my state because I'm like, is it the job or is it something else?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And it's not the job because, you know, I never thought I was going to be a career prosecutor, but I really liked what I did, and come to find out, I'm like, I think I need to make a change. And so I told him the end of the year. He said, well, let me know he's got my back no matter what. So I said, I'll try to make to the end of the summer. That's what I thought. He goes on vacation. I get the call that my uncle dies. And I said, why am I waiting to the end of the summer?

[Thomas Moscow]

Was it like life, too?

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's right. That's right. Tomorrow's not promised. You know, I look younger than I am. I'm about 45.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so I'm like, well, If I'm gonna make a change, I'm gonna do this. And I always had the inkling of like doing private practice.

[Thomas Moscow]

How long ago was this? Three years ago?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, 20, 21. So we're about three. About a little over three years in now.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. And so how long were you there?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Seven.

[Thomas Moscow]

Seven. And then what'd you do before that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I had my own practice for a second and I went to law school late.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay. Because I was trying to figure out the, the.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I was a non traditional student for sure. For sure. I. I got barred in 2012.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I've been practicing for about 12 years.

[Thomas Moscow]

How long were you. So that's seven. So you've been doing a couple years then?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I guess you were a couple years before that. Yeah, I moved out to Vegas. I worked for a guy, a solo practitioner. Oh, man, I couldn't stand it. He was doing construction defect. And he was like that typical big law partner that you hear. I guess he worked at big law for a little while. I mean, you would just go off on me for no reason.

[Thomas Moscow]

I've never understood those types. Yeah, I don't get it. It's like I want to kick your ass, you know, it's like you, like you're not going to talk to me that way like that. It's crazy to me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, you got to have a little bit of like give people grace. It's kind of like parents that are beating their kids, their parents beat them.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So he probably got that treatment and he's probably not as bad as he was treated, maybe. Know what I mean? And. But I was like, I'm not t. I'm a little too old. And that's, that's the problem with getting in a law too old sometimes is you're just not going to take any. Anything like that, that kind of treatment. And so I wasn't. I could still take some treatment at that time. I was still in my early 30s at this point in my life. I mean, if somebody talked to me that way, I'd be out real quick. So I wouldn't last at a firm at this point. But yeah, so he died, my uncle died. I gave my. I was like, I'm gonna get my notice right away. I gave my notice. And I remember I gave the D A. The ADA was sitting right there. I was their lead DUI death prosecutor. Everybody thought I was going to make a career of it. And Wolfson asked me D A Wilson, he goes, well, if you could leave whenever you wanted, when would it be? And I said, right after this guy's get sentenced and adjudicated today, I'd walk out. The ADA almost spit his coffee out. He goes, today. I said, well, he asked me a question. I mean, let me go home and think about it. I did another 30 days, tightened up my caseload, made it good for the next guy to transition.

[Thomas Moscow]

The responsible thing to do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It is. It is. And you know, I always say that I am conscientious to a fault, to my own detriment.

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, because. But I did it and I left. And I really didn't know what I was going to do after that.

[Thomas Moscow]

You didn't. You. So you didn't have any plans to go start your own firm? Nothing like that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I said, I'm going to. I had saved up some money. Live below your means. I was going to take a year off. My. My son was 2. I was like, I'm gonna take a year off. See what happens. And I'll tell you what, the back to the question you asked, which is, how did it help me?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

My cell phone just rings a month later, my personal cell, and it's a potential client.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. They've been referred by somebody. They heard I wasn't at the DA's office anymore. So I take the case and I'm like, well, I better get my LLC up right away if this. This might happen once in a while.

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. I get the LLC up within a couple weeks, I get another referral to my personal cell. I don't have a business line.

[Thomas Moscow]

Do you know where they're coming from at this point?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't.

[Thomas Moscow]

Do you even. Do you know where they ever came from?

[Tyson Mutrix]

No. I would ask, and they just said, hey, a lawyer friend of mine or my. My son clerks has a friend that clerks for a judge, and they recommended you. And that was the thing about being a prosecutor. You know, I would just. I was in the courthouse in the trenches so much that it had just. People got to know me. I. I made friends, I made. I had this community. It was automatic networking just by being in court every day. And so once I left the office, a lot of people knew, and I guess people were just referring business. Well, anyways, this guy calls me and he says he had this case as a felony case is referred by a defense attorney in the area. He knew I was out on my own. Right. And he gets a lot of business, he's nearing retirement, and he said, oh, yeah, this guy preferred me. So Very, very warm lead. Right? I mean, this is like an automatic Close. But I have no office. I have no website. I do have my LLC in my bank account at this point. I don't have payment processes.

[Thomas Moscow]

Do you have a trust account up yet?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I didn't know I had that.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay, got the.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I had the bank account, I had my llc, and that was it. I didn't even have credit card processing. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Wow.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So the guys are like, our friend is in jail right now. This is how criminal defense is. Absolutely. Where can we meet you? Where am I going to meet him? I don't have an office.

[Thomas Moscow]

I'll meet you at the jail.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, I said, well, where. What part of town are you in? Vegas is kind of big. They said, well, we're in Henderson. I said, okay, well, my office is kind of downtown. You know, why don't I just come to you? Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Nice. Well played.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So come to them. Meet him in a Starbucks. But I had been in the newspaper many, many, many times and on the news because of the pro. The cases I prosecuted.

[Thomas Moscow]

So you were recognizable at that point?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I got there and know. I just. They just Googled me, and news articles are showing up. They go, oh, he's legit. We're in a Starbucks. And they go, well, how much is the fee? And I go, Well, I charge 20,000.

[Thomas Moscow]

So do you for. For this market? Was that high, low? It right in. Right in line. Did you even know?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I didn't know.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I just know that I had been paying attention over the years to every defense attorney I came across. Yeah, I talked to them a lot. So their prices are all over the place.

[Thomas Moscow]

All over the place.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know? Uh, but again, I'm also trying to just take time off, and I'm not trying to do work for cheap.

[Thomas Moscow]

So you're. You're quoting a number that you're like, I'll be happy if they pay it, and if not, okay, whatever.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Exactly. If they want, if they pay it, cool. If not, fine. It was a real serious case too, by the way. Like, I knew how serious it was.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yep.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And they go, okay. They were like. I was like, it's 20,000 if you can pay it up front. I give a 10% discount. I still do that to this day, is 18,000. Otherwise, I need half down or whatever. They're like, no, we could pay it up front. And they were like, do you take cash?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yes, I do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I said, yeah. I didn't have credit card. I didn't have credit card processing. And literally they go, wait right here. I'm in a Starbucks. They go out into the parking lot, they come back in, they hand me 18 grand.

[Thomas Moscow]

Could you stop smiling after that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, no. First I'm like, in Starbucks, like, what am I doing? They're like, do you want to count it? I said, I'll just trust you on it. I'll count it, like, when I get in the car. But that's kind of like the genesis of it. And then two days later, another referral came to me, and he wanted to pay, and I quoted him like, seven grand. And he's like, okay, I can pay right now by credit card. And I said, what? Still don't have my credit card processing. So I'm calling Law Pay and trying.

[Thomas Moscow]

To get all like.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And they're like, it's going to take two or three days. I was like, I need, like, I need it done in, like, two or three hours. And the guy pushed it through. He got it done for me.

[Thomas Moscow]

Fantastic.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. And I got that case. And I said, man, maybe there's something to it. I'm still trying to take time off, but if these kind of come around. And they just kept coming. I mean, that. Long story short, they just kept coming. And so, going back to your original question. Yeah, yeah. The prior experience had everything to do with it. If I was. If I just hung my shingle coming out of law school, none of that's happening.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, it is interesting. And as a district attorney. So I'm just going to call you a prosecutor out here, so. Because we just called them prosecutors in Missouri, so. So as a prosecutor, I mean, I'm sure you saw the solos that would come right out of law school. Right. Like, you'd see him come and take a criminal case, I guess. What is. What was your perception of those types of people that just hang out the shingle right out of law school? Like, did you have any perception of those. Those attorneys that would do that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I know this. When I interviewed at the prosecutor's office, they asked me why I never did any criminal defense work prior to that.

[Thomas Moscow]

And I said, oh, that's an interesting thing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I said, I don't mind taking a case that I don't know how to do, being a young attorney. But criminal defense, I mean, with somebody's liberty at stake, I would have an issue with that. And they kind of laughed. And as I was a prosecutor, I saw that the quality of lawyering in the criminal defense bar is pretty bad.

[Thomas Moscow]

So you've been able. You've been able to leverage your experience against that, I guess, in this market?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, yeah, of course. I mean, Anybody.

[Thomas Moscow]

Is there a big fish here in this town? So like in, in St. Louis, like, and in Missouri, like, the big DWI lawyer is, is Travis Noble. He's well known in Missouri. I don't know if I know. He speaks all over the country. Scott Rosenblum's the big guy in, in St. Louis. Is there like a big fish here in Vegas?

[Tyson Mutrix]

There's some very well known attorneys. I think the guy who was considered like the guy, he passed away a couple years ago. He had had multiple heart surgeries. Bill Terry was his name. Great guy, very respected. I had run ins with him, but he had been around since, you know, the mob days in Vegas. He's been around for a long time. You know, the, the mayor, Oscar Goodman was a big hitter before he became mayor. You know, he, he represented like, you know, the mob never existed according to him, but he represented these guys and he was good at what he did. He won some wiretap cases. Next thing you know he's getting everything and he ascended to mayor. But there's kind, it's kind of like a transition period. So there's some guys that are in town, but I don't think there's one person who's considered like, oh, he's the guy. It's pretty much word of mouth where if somebody's been around for a while, they're, they're getting referrals because they've been around for a while and the attorneys know who they are and their former clients know who they are. But it's kind of a vacuum right now. So.

[Thomas Moscow]

Say, do you have that, that I was kind of thinking of as a vacuum too. Like, do you, do you have any ambition to fill that void?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I think is a just as. Look, I was a lead DUI death prosecutor, prosecuted thousands of DUIs. Yeah, every lawyer wants to take a DUI case, man. Yeah, they do. Every, every. Even if they don't practice criminal defense, they think it's easy money. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

And here's. So I did, I, I do just do injury now. I did criminal defense back in the day, did DWIs. And what really pissed me off about those, because in Missouri we call them DWIs. What always made me mad is that to do them effectively, the you do need to charge a, a pretty steep fee to do. Because we can do depos during the admin. Administrative hearing and all that in Missouri. So. But things you could do that are really effective to help preserve this person's license, but also to maybe get them off because of all the criminal cases, they might be the easiest to get someone off because all the technical issues that are there are with DWIs, but you have someone to take them for $300, $400, $500. It's like, it's, it's crazy to me. And I'm assuming you probably fight that out here a little bit too, where people just charging Nothing for these DWIs, whatever, and there's no way they could effectively do them out here for that amount.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, the, the truth is, like I said, I prosecuted and I'm actually the city prosecutor for Bo, so you can.

[Thomas Moscow]

Do we have that out in St. Louis too, where you, like, people are.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Municipal prosecutors, so there's a contract thing. They don't have much crime down there. So I'm still on the other side of these guys. And I'm going to tell you, nobody's doing anything on those cases.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, that's. That's the thing. Like, but you could. But no one does.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They don't even know how. Yeah, look, that here, that's the problem with going solo right out of law school. Okay? You go solo out of law school, or let's say solo before you even know really how to practice. And you're so busy getting business, getting clients, and then you never have time to actually learn how to execute if you need to, how to actually litigate. Right. And then you find like, hey, nobody's really litigating. All these cases are resolving. I can do this with a couple phone calls. I have friends, like, they get a lot of clients and they say, hey, it's. It's a phone call and three court appearances. That's what I'm charging for, right? And I go, man, if you really look at it that way, I feel bad for the clients and that. That regard. But a guy practices for 10 years doing it that way, he's been doing it that way so long, he actually thinks he knows what he's doing.

[Thomas Moscow]

So it's funny you say that, because I. So before. So I, I took a case that was in Boone County, Missouri, and I'd been practicing in St. Louis for a few years at this point. And like, we were like, like you have. We had a whole process for how to handle dwi. And my first appearance in Boone county was on. It was like a DWI docket. And I noticed all these attorneys playing out all their clients on the first appearance because they offer a special deal if you plead them out on the first appearance. I'm thinking, like, what a disservice. This is such an injustice. You know what I mean? Like, it is. I could not believe what was happening because they're. It was such a disservice to their clients, but it was such a benefit to the attorneys and the prosecutor's office and the judge. Yes. So everybody involved except for the client.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's the system. It's like that Dave Chappelle joke. Like you're sitting at a table and your attorney's supposed to be on your side, your agent, but they all work together other. All the time, and they're telling you, take this, take this deal, but really they're doing what's best for them. Not so what's best for you. And no, I. I got a story for you. And I tell this to potential clients. Sometimes there's a guy and he's actually a decent defense attorney, but even, like I said, the quad. The bar is so low on what they're doing. Right? Yeah, I. I'm outside, I'm training a prosecutor. I'm hanging outside the. The DWI courtroom. And it's a busy courtroom, right? One judge hears all the cases, and the DY Death cases are there, the injury cases are in there, but then also the misdemeanors, right? And there's hundreds of them.

[Thomas Moscow]

And one. One judge does it all.

[Tyson Mutrix]

One judge here, they does it all. Which is, I guess, is good to streamline it. But anyways, I'm outside the courtroom because sometimes I would hang out when I'm training a prosecutor. I would just hang out outside, see the defense attorneys and all their clients are out there. It's like a herd of cattle. And the defense attorneys are all meeting with them, right? And this real pretty girl comes up to me, she goes, are you my attorney? And I go, no, you never met your attorney before. And she goes, I never met him. I was like, okay, what's his name? She says, his name. I go, okay, if he shows up, I'll point him out to you. I was like, but what's your case on for today? She goes, trial. I said, oh, okay. I was like, so he shows up. I point her. I point her out. I was like, that's him. She goes up to him, he. Give me a minute. He's got five other clients there that day, right? And he's talking them all into pleading, right? That's what they do. Oh, my gosh. Look, if you're being paid a flat fee, your financial incentive is to get rid of the closure, the problem.

[Thomas Moscow]

Like charging too, like, not enough money. That's.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's Exactly.

[Thomas Moscow]

Part of the problem. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I go in the courtroom, I talk to the prosecutor, I say, hey, do you have so and so's case on for trial? He goes, I do. All my witnesses here. I look back, the cops there, the nurse, everybody.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's not one of those things where it's going to get reset. It's. It's going.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's going.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And the defense attorneys are using that, too. They left it on, had their client come, and it's witness poker. Are the witnesses here? Yes. Okay. If they're here, you're pleading guilty to dwi. If they're not here, you're going to get some kind of reduction.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's disgusting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And that's the extent to which they do it. But here's the thing. I talked to the prosecutor, said. I go, hey, did you ever talk to so and so about the case? He never called me back, so I assumed that it was just left on. I brought the witnesses in. I go, okay. Never had a phone call with him. This is one of the better defense attorneys in the area, mind you. Okay. Next thing I know, 10 minutes later, he walks in with her. They walk right over the podium. Never comes up to me. Never comes up to the prosecutor. Because there's standard deals in these cases that everybody knows.

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And he just goes, pleading no contest to dw, DWI and doing the class and the fine and with the standard deal that gets offered in the county for those which. That was it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But we, me and the prosecutor just looked at each other and went, dang. And so when I was about to go out on my own or right when I did leave the DA's office, this really experienced defense attorney, and he's one of the few guys, like, prosecutors would refer people to him. Right. He doesn't even do that much either, but he'll file at least a motion if he thinks there's an issue, and he'll definitely call the prosecutor and try to wear the prosecutor out on the phone. That's more than most of them do. He'll actually call you and be like, come on, please.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why not?

[Thomas Moscow]

Like, try it. Like, try something.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Try. Just try.

[Thomas Moscow]

Just try.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And he took me into his office, and he was a D. A way back in the 80s, for like three or four years. And he goes. He goes, man, he's like, I know what you're thinking. When I was here in the 80s, you're sitting there handling these calendars, all these attorneys are coming in, and you're going, I could do way Better than them. And I laughed. Right?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And he's like, I know what you're.

[Thomas Moscow]

Thinking, and he could read your mind.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. He's like, you're thinking the same thing I thought 40 years ago. Right. And so I came out and yeah, I do charge a little bit more for my cases, but, you know, when I'm fighting like these municipal prosecutors, they are very aggressive because they only handle misdemeanors. It's not like the county.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right, right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That are. They're concentrating on felony cases and the misdemeanors are like, let's just try and get our convictions where we can. You know, these aggressive municipal prosecutors, you know, I'll pay for them because, look, they're used to everybody doing what I just told you.

[Thomas Moscow]

And it's like they're, it's like these, they're, they're kind of bullies. Like, it's like I never thought way you just talked about how they're used to, like just dealing with just these misdemeanors. Like, this is like their job whenever the actual prosecutors in the county are actually dealing with felonies. But then the misdemeanor is kind of almost like a hindrance. So I never thought about it from that angle. But it's like they, they try to bully people into these pleas. It's drives me crazy.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And they know which ones they can. Because you're dealing with the same. Well, if you, if you're deal with somebody you've never seen before or barely shows up, it's like blood in the water.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And if you're dealing with somebody you deal with with all the time, you, you know how they operate. Is this a person who's just going to walk their client and you just tell them no. A couple times he might send you a long email with all the issues, quote, unquote, and then he's going to plead his client. Or is this a guy who's actually going to leave it on for trial and do the trial? There's only a couple guys who would even do that. Or what I try to bring to the table, which is, I'm not even going to let you get me into trial until you've already spent several nights and weekends responding to motions I've authored.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And you're not going to be able to use the oppositions that I authored for everybody, the stock oppositions, because I know what I did oppositions for. Everybody uses them. So I'm giving like more of a bespoke defense, but I'm putting more Time into a case, but with that is like, I carry a big stick, but I'm catching flies with honey.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Because I was the prosecutor. I know how to talk to a prosecutor. I know what their concerns. But I know the ones who are going to be super aggressive but don't like to work.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. They want their weekend off. And I'll tell you, when you file 10 motions on somebody and they go, does anybody have an opposition for this? And nobody does because they've never seen it. And then they start doing the research. I'll tell you about a week before their oppositions are due, you get that email with an offer.

[Thomas Moscow]

It is interesting. Like, the prosecutors, they had, like that big bark. They have a big bark. And so, like, they give you that pushback, but then they. You're right. They don't want to try the case. They don't want to do that work.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's right.

[Thomas Moscow]

So. But the bark works with most attorneys.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You need both. Prosecutor's office needs both. You need the ones who just, like, they don't know how to litigate, but they will just. They'll go in and just brawl.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right, Right. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then you need some that were kind of like me at the prosecutor's office, which is. I want the defense to file some motions because I want you to be effective. Because I got to defend your defense. If we go to trial and your guy loses, which he is, two years later, ineffective assistance, I'm defending you, so please file some motions. I don't care, but trust me when I tell you. And that guy, Bill Terry, who was like the big shark out here, the big guy.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

He knew when he got on a case with me, he's gonna have to do work because as a prosecutor, I actually filed motions, which nobody was doing.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's. Yeah, that's kind of rare. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. I would do it and. Because I want to put the defense attorneys to work, because I saw also, like. And I know that now that I'm defense counsel, like, last thing I want to see is five. Process five motions come in on a misdemeanor DUI from some prosecutor.

[Thomas Moscow]

Absolutely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. That's. You don't have to do that additional work for no extra money.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Exactly.

[Thomas Moscow]

And are you. Are you flat fee only or do you do. Do you.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I do flat fee. You know, that's how just criminal defense is. I prefer it that way.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's an easier sell to the client.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It is. Because it's mitigating their risk. Right. As far as the hourly rate goes, like. Yeah. Look, regardless, I'm going to do your case for this. And I actually love that there's guys out here, they're doing the case for practically nothing. I love it. You know why? Yeah. Well, I mean, come on, you're looking for a criminal defense attorney, you call five guys, they're like, I'll do it for 1500, I'll do it for 2000, I'll do it for whatever. And then I come in and I go, yeah. I was like, I'll do it for 10,000. I need 7, 500 up front.

[Thomas Moscow]

And here's why. Do you explain why or.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I don't even. I see. Another thing is these guys will spit the price out right when they get somebody on the phone.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, number one, they're doing that because they're so busy.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yep.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They're taking so many clients, they're running a high volume practice or they're trying to screen right away, which for me is I'm just going to give somebody value up front. You're calling me, you're in an emergency. I really know what I'm talking about here. I'll spend a half hour with you on the phone, even if I think you're not going to be able to afford my services. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then I'll quote the price, and if they don't hire me and they don't have the funds to hire me, that's fine. And I'll even try to direct them to somebody who I think is semi competent and will do it for less. You know, I'll direct you that way, but I'm okay with them walking away. The thing is this. If you're calling around and you really have a dire situation, do you want the $5,000 guy? The $10,000 guy?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. You want the 10,000? That's what you want?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, yeah. You want the $10,000 guy? The $20,000 guy?

[Thomas Moscow]

20,000.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You want the $100,000 guy.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's interesting, the mindset part of that, right. Where like, like, because you, they're. And I don't think that those, I always call them the 500 attorney. Like, they don't, they don't realize that, like how much of a disadvantage they're giving. They're, they're, they're giving themselves by charging so little, they look like the discount attorney.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, here, here's what it comes down to. They're starving.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. Starving. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. They're trying to get some money. They're trying to keep the lights on. I get it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. But what they don't realize is that they're creating this gridlock with their docket that. That they're having to spend so much more time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They know they don't have the value to offer.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's why they can't quote that price.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's a good point. Like, understanding your value is a massive.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Which is. And I want to get to, like, the.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I'd even say this before you get to that.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, They.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think they do understand their value. That's why they're quoting such a low price.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's a fair point.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And that the consumer picks up on that.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. So I tell people, I go, look, I know most. Sometimes I'll even say, most people can't afford me. So.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, because that is really. I think that that is a really. It's a brilliant point because, like, something that I talk about is that, like, part of running the business is also like. Like making sure that you're good at your craft. You have to be good at your craft. That's a part of running the business. Right. It's. They're. They. They're not two separate things. They're the. They're the same thing. Because if you are not good, you're not going to be confident in your abilities and you're going to be charging dirt and you're not going to be making any money.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

So. Which I want to get to, like, you focus on, like, high profitability, low overhead.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

And.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

So what are some keys to that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

What keys?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean, low overhead. I don't have a physical office.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yep.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. I run a virtual.

[Thomas Moscow]

Does that. Does that ever affect trying to get clients? No.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No. I mean, look, I have a virtual office. I can get a conference room.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, I pay $60 an hour, $80 an hour. You know, they're always like, do you want the $40 an hour conference room? I'm like, no, give me the huge one. It's a. Like this boardroom. The table is like, 30ft long with a bunch of chairs, and it's just me and a client.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I said give me that one for 80. An extra $20 an hour. I mean, what are we doing here?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. I mean, what's.

[Thomas Moscow]

What's the reason. Why you. Why you do that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why I do that?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Because I'm trying to make an impression on a client. I don't keep an office. Okay. But if we need to meet, let's meet somewhere. Man, this place, it looks. It's nice.

[Thomas Moscow]

So what do you think it is. Something I always noticed is, like, the. Who you hired as a. Like, as an. As your attorney was, like, an ego thing for the client. And so I think you're 100% dead on. I think that that was the brilliant move. Like, why do you think that is, though? Because they. It's like. It's almost like a badge of honor to know that, like, they have hired the good attorney. You know what I mean? So why do you think that is?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I don't. If I'm gonna try and understand your question. They want to know there's a good attorney because of the office.

[Thomas Moscow]

They're going showing off their attorney. Right? Like, because I've had. I've. I've seen it, you know, like, that's my attorney. Like that. Like, they're, like, showing off to other people, almost like that's their guy. So, like, you're conveying that to those clients, which I think is brilliant. Like, the. You're the guy. You got the big conference room and everything. But I do wonder, like, it is about those. That clientele that they need that guy that is the. Or. Or the attorney. I would say guy that. The attorney that is, like, the good attorney.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, I don't think the conference room has anything to do with it. I was just bringing that up as. Look, I. I keep my overhead low. I don't keep a physical office, whatever that is. 1300, 1500, 2000, 3000amonth. I don't spend it. Okay. Covid changed everything. Most clients hire me without ever meeting me. I dispose of cases without people ever meeting me in person. I do dismissal.

[Thomas Moscow]

Is that what. Is that what you mean?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Or enter a plea. Written ent. Plea.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, they're out. You know, even if they're in state, I almost never meet them. And so the conference room is something some people want to meet. And it changed. A lot of the attorneys are now. They're like. They have those offices, and they go, yeah, after Covid, everything did change. And then you could just zoom. Clients like that, too. They don't have to leave their house.

[Thomas Moscow]

So that's what's. So it's interesting for us because we've been. I saw the shift right around, like, 2014, 2015, where. Because 2010, I graduated law schools. And that was one of, like, we were meeting everyone in person. Everybody.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

And then right around 14 or 15 is when it really shifted. And then we started getting to the point where, like, we weren't meeting. We. We would sign up the client over the phone. Or, you know, they would do electronically and then we'd send them a check. We would never meet that person. And that. I always found that wild. Like, it's just such a bizarre thing to me. Like, I would at least want to meet my attorney. It's, it's a, It's a different world than what it used to be.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I, I would probably want to meet my attorney before, after the case going. Yeah, prob. Maybe before. But here's the thing. That, look, I paid. And most people would go, hey, your website, you paid that much for the design of it? You paid that much.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's really important website.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I go, I go, yeah. I mean, this is what actually gives you legitimacy. Somebody looks you up. You know, that's why I was, I'm happy that the prosecutor's office. I was in the paper a lot. So if somebody looks me up, they're not, they don't think, like, am I sending money to a Nigerian?

[Thomas Moscow]

That's such a gift to you. You know what I mean? It was, yeah. That was such a gift.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But, you know, I went to the DUI unit for a. In. You know, they're high profile cases. You know, the news loves a DUI death case. You know, they follow them, they, they, they track them. You're get a lot of those out here? Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Is it because of the casinos?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it's just drinking and driving. I don't know if there's more here than anywhere else, but we, yeah, we get a lot of them, you know.

[Thomas Moscow]

Because that's, it's one of those things where like, I wouldn't necessarily consider like out in Missouri, any of the counties really, any of the DUI units as like, like high profile. Because like, you know, I wouldn't say we see, we do see death cases from, but not nearly so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like, you probably heard about the Las Vegas Raider, Henry Ruggs.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Remember, he killed somebody 156 miles an hour. That would have been my case if I was at the office. Yeah, right. That was a huge one. The one I did with the cyclist. That was a huge one. There's a case I'm defending, cases now that are DY Death cases. So when the media is all over.

[Thomas Moscow]

When you wanted to go to that unit, was it because you wanted to be a high profile prosecutor or that initial or eventually you, you thought, yeah, I might go out on my own?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, yeah, I always had the inkling that I might go out on my own. But the way you started the prosecutor's office, you do general litigation. Those are the Garbage cases.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So if a murder makes it to general litigation, like this is what we call a track murder. Like homeless on homeless, probably barely provable. Right, Right. Or else the homicide team's keeping it. Right?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then they have a sex team, and they have a domestic violence team, and they got the DUI team and they have the guns team. They got the gang unit. Right. And you're trying to ascend to those positions to get more serious cases.

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so when I was about two years in, there's opening for domestic violence and there's opening for the DUI team, and I put in for domestic violence, of course, because the DUI team at that point was considered. You're a pariah. They sent the trouble. Like these guys. Same guys have been on that unit for a long time. Nobody wanted to go there. And the domestic violence thing wasn't going to happen for me. The ADA told me, he goes, what do you think about the DUI team? And I said, no, I'd go do it. And I got over there, and so it wasn't. I wish I could say I had it all planned at home.

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But I didn't. You know, I fell into it. I was over there. I go, next thing I know, like, every sentencing I go into, the cameras are there. Right. Every case I'm on, the cameras are there at arraignment. And then, you know, I stopped watching the news because the DUI death makes the news. I'm like, I know when I go into work, I'd rather not know. Yeah, I'd rather the case just hit my desk. When it hits my desk.

[Thomas Moscow]

It was ruining the surprise. Like, it's like knowing what you're gonna get before Christmas morning.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But when I got there, the guys were like, if you're ever thinking about going into private practice, this is the place to be. DUI misdemeanors. All you do is accident reconstructionists and car accidents. So if you want to go do plaintiff side. And I've done plaintiffs, you know, I came out, these plaintiffs firm always need trial attorneys. And so, yeah, I go to try. I do trials for them sometimes. And so, yeah, those guys were kind of right. They're like, you kind of pick up those skills.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Along the way, you know, something that.

[Thomas Moscow]

We'Ve noticed is like, of all the practice areas, criminal defense is one of the hardest to scale. It's really hard to have to grow a big firm because you'll see, like, injury firms there's. All over the country, there's. They're scaling There's. You even see with family law attorneys, estate planning attorneys, like, they can scale, but there's something about criminal defense that's really hard to get it done before, but it's. It's. It's rare. So I was gonna ask you what you thought it is.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean, I'm pretty new to the game.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right. So I'm three years in. But I'll tell you, I. I got my mind working on it. I have friends that run huge PI Firms. And the problem. The thing with that is when you get a PI Case, there's. It's not like, oh, I gotta go down to the jail and visit somebody right now. No, there's a hearing tomorrow. He's got a probation revocation hearing next week. I got to prepare for. It's like, get the medical records, get them treated. Case manager do everything on it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Until we file. And then you can have like, some attorney that probably doesn't know what he's doing, like, do the filings and just go take some depots. I mean, that's the kind of the way they run it. So maybe there's something to it with that. With the family law firms, I don't know how they're doing it, how they scale it. I just know there's so much work in family law, not enough attorneys want to do it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, is the way the. One of the keys is like, they have. Have evergreen retainers where like. And it's. So it's not like criminal defense, where it's like a flat fee, but if they have an evergreen retainer, it's just. It keeps replenishing. They're never in the negative. So if the client stops paying, it dips below whatever the limit is on their evergreen retainer. They just stop working on the case. So they're never out money. But if. As long as they have a steady supply of. Of clients and they can get the attorneys, they can hire enough attorneys, they can just. They're just printing cash, and that's how they're able to do it. But I mean, the. The hard part of that is, like hiring the right attorneys, they're going to want to stick around. It's hard finding feminine law attorneys. But like. And it's. I'm oversimplifying it, but it's easier than you might think. But with criminal defense, you I. The big part of it is, is that. And family law has this problem too, because they're always in court, but they're billing every single hour for it. Criminal defense, you're taking a flat fee, you're in court all the time. It's really, really hard to do other stuff other than being in court all the freaking time, because you have the morning docket, the afternoon docket, sometimes the night, depending on where you are. Like a night docket, which can be really tough.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I got some guys, a lot of guys I know, they run around with, like, chickens with their heads cut off.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do. Well, I mean, I look at their calendar, I go, how many appearances you have?

[Thomas Moscow]

Because they're charging. They're not charging enough. That's. That's part of the problem.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that's part of the problem, but I know that's not the way I operate. That's just not the way I operate. And I'm fortunate enough that, look, I saved up enough money before I left, and then I just started making money, and then I started getting my, you know, ducks in a row as far as having the website down. But, yeah, I don't have an assistant. I keep my overhead low. I do my own court filings, you know, with Zoom now. I mean, your court appearances, you can.

[Thomas Moscow]

Zoom in for the court appearance. That's a really good point. That's something where I had not. I had not thought about that. For. For criminal defense, if you can do Zoom, that. That's. That's a gift.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Because most criminal defense appearances are you wait around for an hour for your case to get called, and it's two minutes.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yep. Well, what they have done. And I've noticed in a lot of counties in Missouri, back in person, for criminal. Like, it's. A lot of our injury stuff is. Is. It's Zoom. We use WebEx, but Illinois, a lot of web. We do. We do use Zoom over in Illinois.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Because in St. Louis, you practice on both sides of river for the most part. But like, with criminal defense, I've heard it's mostly, like, in person.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I still show up in person, though. Yeah, I do.

[Thomas Moscow]

It wouldn't. If you. If you batch your docket, you can put everything on one one day. If you. If. As long as they're all, you know, in the same county, the key.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Look, these guys, when I went into private, they all go, there's two ways you do it. All right? You either take a lot of cases and don't charge a lot, or you.

[Thomas Moscow]

Take a few cases and charge a lot. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I go, why would you ever do the former?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well. And I go, unless you can't do the latter.

[Thomas Moscow]

I think it's an ego thing, you know, like, oh, another case. I get another case. It's. It's like almost like a dopamine hit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, it's like Rick Ross said, he's like, we don't leave no money on the table, man.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

If they can only pay 1500. Get that. 1500. And it's like, you know, I. I get that. I get that. But there's a couple guys out here in Vegas who have scaled, and they have a bunch of attorneys working for them. And I'll tell you, here's. Here's the big problem. Somebody comes to hire me for criminal defense. They're like, former chief deputy, district attorney. This guy's the man, right. He's got deep connections. Salary's got all over the news. Everything's there.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yep.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, when he comes to hire me, he wants to hire me. He doesn't want my associates showing up. It's a really good negotiating the case being in court. And these guys who have scaled always have their newer attorney showing up to court on the cases. And, fine, that's. That's a way to run your business. But at the same time, like, it's a disservice to the client. And they're getting so many cases again. Are they. Are they giving the best. I'm trying to get favorable outcomes for my client. I'm not trying to process cases through. But that goes back to a point that you said earlier. Like, you know, it's hard to scale because of. Whatever. Whatever. But at the same time, like, if I. Or you said, you need to know how to practice to run a good business, I disagree with that.

[Thomas Moscow]

Interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Look, I was on the other side for a long time, looking around, knowing I could do better than these guys. Yeah, there's a lot of people who are there. It's. It's just like PI. Just get the cases. Just sign the cases. Just sign the cases. Because finding a good attorney is like finding a good mechanic. It's like finding a good doctor.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You're an attorney. I'm an attorney. I try to find a good doctor. I have no idea if my doctor is good or not. And then he fixes me, and I go. At least when I leave there, I go. You know, I still have that cyst under my eyelid or something. He didn't fix it. With criminal law or law in general, you don't know the case is over. And it's like, did the case go the way it should have gone? Could somebody have done Better they don't know.

[Thomas Moscow]

I think with, I think with. I think there's enough information out there with, with injury specifically, because there are. If I didn't know specifically like how injury cases work. Because the whole game for, for us is bad faith. We want to pin the insurance company, you know, in a corner with pop the policy and. Pop the policy. Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

But I would say over half of injury attorneys don't even understand that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They don't even know how to pop a policy. And so that's Right. You're right.

[Thomas Moscow]

So they're big. Yeah. So they' Business is, is, is hurting because we get so many, we pop the policy so many times where it's so much more money for the firm.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But how does the consumer know that?

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, I'm not even saying the consumer may not know it, but that's how.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You'Re getting your cases. That's what you're saying. You're saying you got to know how to practice so consumers understand how to practice.

[Thomas Moscow]

I'm really more talking about the health of the business because.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. Because my profits are way higher than the guys that don't know what they're doing when it comes to bad faith. So they're skimming by.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But if you're, if you're popping policies, you're actually litigating.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, some of the most, not always in Missouri, not. Is our bad faith statute so favorable.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, you can pop a policy without pre.

[Thomas Moscow]

We have pre. And so now there's, there's one insurance company, it's American family. Sometimes I'll say too, where they'll make you a pop. A policy verdict, but otherwise a lot of the other ones will not make you. They. You will you. We've had, we had four last year. We didn't file suit on them. So it's. Yeah, you don't like. On several of them, the statute's so favorable when you have them in a corner, you got them in a corner, they pay it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you're making more per case because you're able to, you're able to get higher value out of these cases. But I'll tell you, the business I see is pre lit personal injury firms out here sign as many cases as you can. Sign them, sign them, sign them. We're settling, settling, settling, settling. And yeah, they're not getting as much as some of the better firms out here. But the consumers. I'll tell you, my stepmother, right. She's. Look, she's Filipino, right. And she's not the most educated person.

[Thomas Moscow]

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[Tyson Mutrix]

Her daughter is an attorney. I'm an attorney. My son's godmother is a district court criminal judge. I mean, attorneys everywhere. We throw a birthday party. Attorney's all over the place. Her niece gets in a car accident, she tells about, tells me about in the afternoon, we're sitting there at dinner. She goes, I already called Paul Powell and he's one of these business billboard lawyers who has commercial going, more lawyer, less fee. More lawyer, less fee. She already called him. They already signed with him. Didn't even what Family full of attorneys, right. And I go, this is eye opening because that's what consumers are kind of going for. And so they don't know who's actually doing a better job. They, they don't. They don't.

[Thomas Moscow]

I don't disagree with that at all. I, I really don't.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And once they get signed, what they, then they start doing their research. Now there's a lien on the case.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yep.

[Tyson Mutrix]

The other attorney, once they're cut, acting like they did all this work.

[Thomas Moscow]

I do think at least with injury, the clients are becoming more informed because we, we have, we have done a better job as a bar generally as like, like educating clients compared to like criminal defense attorneys because it just, we, we do a lot more marketing. It's just, it's just A different market. But overall I would still say generally they don't know the difference. For like they're, they're, they're more educated than what they used to be, but they're, they really don't. I mean, they, it's. I use this example, I think yesterday talking to somebody where I handle. Early on in my career, I handled a family law case for a buddy and I probably got mopped. Like, they probably mopped the floor with me. Yeah, they probably did. I don't know. I, I'm not a film law attorney, but I, here's what I do remember when I left, my client was like high fiving me and like happy you fought for and, and their client was like an experienced family attorney was like yelling at them in the court, outside the courtroom. So like my client, like, it was like how you make the client feel is really what it comes down to. And they, neither one of them probably have any idea who got a better deal than the other one. Like, they really don't know. And I don't even know I was on the case. So like, it really does come out like how you make them feel.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But that kind of goes to my point of it's not how good of an attorney you are that dictates the business. But I get your point. You're saying, well, no, you can increase your profits by being a better attorney, especially if you're in a contingency fee based thing. But I would also say this. You got to sign the big money cases.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So if you got a guy out here who's like just yapping case. I mean, Vegas is crazy because all the California attorneys came in now. Morgan. And Morgan's advertising here.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, they just came in.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sweet. James is out here. Right. So this has been a big influx the past few years, but everybody's been making their business just signing cases, signing cases. And then. Yeah, if you get a big one. Yeah. Well, then you go over, get Brian Panish, you get Panisha Boyle, like, hey, we'll sign you in. He litigates it, you get a big thing, he splits it with half on you. You didn't do anything. Anything. So the whole business is get the cases. And the criminal defense thing is the same way. Get the cases, get the cases. So I think you could scale it, is my point.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, how have you kept off that tempt? Have you fought off that temptation to just sign more cases?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I just take what comes to me. So I did Google Ads for, for like one month.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I was like, wow, it's effective if you're the first one they call. Because I go, did you even go to my site? Do you even know who I am? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. They're ready to pay over the phone because I'm good on the phone.

[Thomas Moscow]

You ever try LSAs?

[Tyson Mutrix]

What is that?

[Thomas Moscow]

Which are similar? It's. It's their local search ads. You should try that too because it. You only get charged for the actual phone call, not for the click.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I hate it though, you know, because. Yeah. First of all, instead of me getting the warm lead, which means they kind of already did their research and know who I am or they got a referral, right now it's a cold lead and now I feel like I paid for it. So now I feel like I want to close it no matter what. Right. Not to say I'm against it. It works. Yeah, but I saw like how quickly volume can escalate for me and I'm doing it all on my own. I need such a small sliver of the market, like such a small sliver that I'm at this point in the year where if I don't take another case for the rest of the year, I'm fine. If the phone doesn't ring, I'm happy actually, because I don't have the intake to be able to field a bunch of calls to start doing a bunch of client consults to do all that. And if I did, I'd make a killing. I'd be in the seven figures.

[Thomas Moscow]

How do you prevent. I'm taking it that your. Your marketing is fairly limited and that your. Your folks, right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Ground and pound, man.

[Thomas Moscow]

So how do you prevent from being like that 55 year old attorney that they're sort of on the back end. The. They're starting to see a decline in their leads because that's where I started to see it. That works. Your approach works for a while and then eventually it stops working. Like you're. You're now the old attorney.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't think so, man. Because like I said, like the living legend who. Who no longer with us. Bill Terry.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean at the end of his career, he's in his 70s, everybody wants him. Why? Because he's known. And so if you've been doing it for 20 years, when I'm 65, I will have handled so many cases my former clients were referring clients.

[Thomas Moscow]

Did he, I mean, did he do much marketing at all?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, it was a different era. Right. So I mean the guys who were killing it back in like the 90s were the first guys who like, got on the Internet. And everyone's like, no, I'm Yellow Pages. Right. Like, oh, they finally got on the Internet. The Internet. And so everybody's kind of catching up with that now. But it's still the same thing of if you're a known attorney. I'll tell you, there's a couple guys in town. They represented Henry Ruggs, they represented Paris Hilton, they represented Bruno Mars on the cocaine charge. Right. Celebrities call them.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And these guys, they, you can't even find. They don't even have a website. Right. Because they're getting clients and they're getting high paying clients and they're. They're already getting referrals. They're the guys to get. I don't. They're nothing special. They do some work on the case, but that's how you want to gear yourself. You want to brand yourself that way in this day and age. I'll tell you this, I did a little social media on my own when I first went out. I started doing, you know, YouTube, tick tock, IG. I actually just signed a client from two days ago. Go. I followed you on Twitter. You haven't tweeted in two years. My friend just got a dui.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's boom, boom, boom.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, right. And I go, it's on my to do list to get back into it. But I understand why attorneys don't do it because I'm in that same boat. You start getting too busy and it's a lot of work and you got companies calling you, saying, well, we'll do the content for you, but you still got to make the content.

[Thomas Moscow]

The content is. If it's, if it's by some company, it's not, it's not gonna be authentic. It's not exactly.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You got to put the time in.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I taught myself how to do Adobe, like editing.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Took a videography course. I got it set up. Everything's set up. Just got to put the time in. But that's really the next level. And none of these attorneys are doing it right. Because like I said, they don't have the knowledge or they're just too busy.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Because they're taking too many cases like we said.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. So I think though, you could do both. You could still do the marketing and then take the case that you want to take and not take the others.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And even with the paid marketing.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, yeah, with the paid marketing. And I. With the way you're doing, I'm not even saying you spend a bunch of money. I would Just say at least do a little bit. That way you're kind of. Your name's still out there. Because I've seen it a lot where, like, I mean, I've talked to thousands of attorneys at this point where you. They kind of get on that back end and they almost. Unless you are like, you fill that void. You became that guy that. That's like. He's trying the cases all the time. He's in the news all the time. That's a little different. If you become that, I'll. I'll agree with you 100. But you got to fill that void. That means you gotta be trying those big cases. You gotta keep getting those big cases. You'll keep getting the referrals. That's. But even the. The top guy out, Scott Rosemable in St. Louis, he's like the top guy. He still puts on a Christmas party every year for all of his clients. He just still does the marketing out there because it is highly competitive. It's probably. I don't know if it's as highly competitive out here, but it's extremely competitive out there. When the criminal.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You gotta market. Yeah, no, I, I agree. I'm not against paid. I'm not against. Like I said, I did it for a month. It worked. But I got inundated. Right, Right. And I got inundated because I needed to have business processes set up more. And so I focused more on that. And then during the time, it's like, well, things are still just coming my way.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How are they coming to me? I guess I'm just fortunate. Is it going to last like that forever? I don't want to be the guy who's like, I was, Business was great and now my phone's not ringing. I don't want to be that.

[Thomas Moscow]

There's this trend that's kind of where people are. They're following like lawyers on Tick Tock and Instagram. They're kind of goofy. And you see, some of them are like, I know you're not a good lawyer. Like, it's like, it's like it just. You're not. And because you know them, you know, you'll. And they're. They're starting to get those leads. And I wonder what you think about that because you. I do think we're going to start to see more of those. Those lawyers getting those leads as opposed to us, you know, and so we got to find a way to kind of combat that a little bit. So I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, no, I want to Get. I know. I think tick tock. I think Instagram and TikTok and Facebook ads, I think they're great.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, but like you said, I want to do it a certain way, and maybe I'm a perfectionist about it. Those guys are just going out and they're just doing it, and doing it is better than not doing it and saying, I'm going to do it better when I do it. But, yeah, no, that's definitely. You want to be out there. I've had people from TikToks I posted two years ago hit me up and go, yeah, you know, I always follow you on TikTok. Why don't you post more? Now they got a case.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And they hit me up. You want to be top of mind. And so. No, I love. I love doing all that. I think that's something that needs to be done. And nobody's doing it right. You know, there's a couple guys. I see what they're doing. No, nobody's doing it right. It's something. You got to sit back and kind of study it. But what it comes down to is low overhead, bank profits away, have money in the bank to where if you don't get a case for two months or three months. Look, you're. We're in a solo business here, right. I can't have my. I can't be living month to month on my business or in my personal life. Right. Like, I have to have income, like, set out to where it's like, if I don't get a case in six months, I'm still okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. We have. We have 20 something employees, so, like, I would lose my mind.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You got to get in the green every month.

[Thomas Moscow]

I'd lose my mind if I didn't get efficacy in six months.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you're in the red for the first three weeks, and then the fourth week you're like, all right, we made money. Right. That's the light. That's kind of the pressure you're under a little bit.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, I mean, if that. If that happened.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

But we, We. We're generating leads every day and, like, signing cases every day, so it's a little different. But I would. I would lose my mind if, like, if I. If we would have to lay off a ton of people if we didn't take on a case.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. So you've gotten big, but how long did it take for you to get that?

[Thomas Moscow]

I say for. To that. Well, we. We grew fast. We. We started hiring more than we should have, so we probably we had. We were probably at 26 within, like four years, probably eight years of practicing. And then we invested a bunch in technology to then lower that cost. So we lowered what we needed when it comes to employees. And so that was. That was great. So then we. We dipped below 20, and now we're back. I think we're like. We're 21 or 22, I think is where we are now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But how long. Well, when you first started out, how long did you bootstrap it with just you and whoever you partnered with? Like, hey, we're doing everything.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. I didn't partner with anybody, so I started early on. It was just me for, like, the first six months. And then I was doing criminal defense and injury, which they're very much.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a great thing because they feed into each other. Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

And then at a point, it became a burden because I couldn't move the injury cases. But then I. I had hired. I had two employees.

[Tyson Mutrix]

First hire was what she was assistant.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. I can't remember what we called her. I think probably just legal assistance, we called her. She was the daughter of a friend of mine who was. Who worked at the injury firm that I had left. And so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

And then I hired his other daughter. So I had two employees. And then one of them, she went to. I can't. She. She went somewhere else because she just graduated from college because she was working there, like, part time. And then I finally made my first appointment. Official hire was like, more like a case manager role.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

Then. Then another case manager role. Then I partnered with a guy. We lasted for 18 months, which learned.

[Tyson Mutrix]

A lesson from that.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's right. So that was kind of interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It ended bad because what was funny, he wasn't pulling his weight.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, no, it. It was interesting. It was. It. It always comes down to money. Right. So he and I both did well before. We both did extremely well together. And then we've both done extremely well since. And it was just a matter of, like. I think part of it's money, I think, but part of it's because we. It's funny, when we split, we all. We both got big checks from the firm. It was interesting. The. Probably more of that down came down to vision, you know, like. Of like, okay, where's the firm going to be headed? Kind of a thing. I think. I think that was a big part.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Of it, why you wanted to grow it big. And he's like, I'm fine with it being small.

[Thomas Moscow]

Not even necessarily that. I think we both like case strategy on Cases. Sometimes I think that was part of it, you know, the. The type of people we should hire. Like, a lot of. A lot of times, like. Like, the way we did it is we. It was almost like veto power. Like, if you want to do this, great. If I agree with it as well, or if you want to do that. I don't really want to do that. You can't do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You want to be the king of your own castle.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right. At a certain point, I think both of us were kind of like, I was the managing partner. I think that. I think there were times where he kind of also wanted to be, too. It was. It was an interesting dynamic. I mean, it was. And we parted on good ways, too. It just. It was. It was an interesting thing because you normally see whenever a firm splits, everyone's fighting and everything and everything. But we. We talked. Seven days later, we split. It was. It was like we signed an agreement. Boom, done, right? So it was an interesting thing, how it all played out.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I've seen some guys. I know some guys, especially in the injury world, I go to these mass tour conferences. I meet some of the big injury guys.

[Thomas Moscow]

It is interesting. Why do you go to those?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Why? Yeah, it's just like stepping into a different universe.

[Thomas Moscow]

Because it's. Because it's out here. So it's. It's.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, no, actually, I go into other ones.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like I said, when I was heavily recruited, after I left the DA's office, all these personal injury firms want to hire me. Right. And some of the really, really good ones.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Because you know what they say, a trial attorney, they're like, you can't make one. They go like, it's just like a unicorn, man. I mean, you're already comfortable in a courtroom. You already know the judges, you know the rules of evidence. You could put trial on like it's nobody's business. And we just hand you the case and all the depositions and everything's done. Like, you could go in and do it, and they go, man, could you come in and do it? I did a few, and I said, but you're handing me the case and everything's not done.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, that's the.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I don't like it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, I tried a case. It was a while ago, but, like, I got. I got the case 30 days before, and it just was not ready. It was like. But it was, like, the point where the case wasn't getting continued and just. It. It sucks trying to shoot a case. It just.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, you.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's just. You're like, Gosh damn it. You know, like, all these things you would have done differently.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's so frustrating to do something like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But, yeah, they recruited me, and then they're like. Like I was. I did some work for them, and they're going and delving into that world, too. So I tag on to the conferences, and they're great parties. Yeah. But you really kind of see, like, you know, how that world's operating and how some of these personal injury firms have kind of migrated towards that because, you know, it seems to be a lot of money. There's. There was definitely a huge wave. That wave is kind of settling down a little bit.

[Thomas Moscow]

This kind of drives me nuts. It's that they will advertise that they're doing these. So there's a new mass tort. Right. They're. They're advertising that they're doing this, and they sign them and they send the. Sign a ship, you know?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

And it's like, it's my, My. The thing that I. I look at, it's like you're not doing those cases, though, and you're advertising that you are doing those cases and that. That's the parts like.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, that's what Morgan. Morgan is doing.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right. Well, that's true. Yeah. And it's. But it's. It is. There's something just not right about it. You know what I mean?

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's not your vision for your firm.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. And good for them for signing up. They get the money at the end.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean, I heard Sweet James, I heard he moved to Puerto Rico. So he get the tax break. He's, you know, make him billion. He's a billionaire IT attorney at this point.

[Thomas Moscow]

That'd be good for him, you know.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But, you know, is he really getting good outcomes? Is he trying cases? No, he's referral machine.

[Thomas Moscow]

So I. I interviewed. I. I don't know his. His title. He might be a coo, but I mean, he's a sharp guy. And I. It was interesting. Like, they're like, they've got it dialed in. They do have that firm dialed in, which is. I think it's a cool name too. It's memorable. I think it's more memorable like Morgan and Morgan. But what's. What's great. And I don't know if sweet James has this component. What makes Morgan and Morgan great is they do have the trial attorneys that can. That can actually try the cases, and that's. That. That makes them way different than the vast majority of volume firms where most volume firms don't have that element of it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Which is. It is. It definitely is a differentiator.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They want that element.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But it's hard to find good help.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right. Have you ever thought about taking on a partner yourself?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, all the time. I mean, in theory it sounds great. In theory, it sounds great. In practice, it's. It's like getting into a marriage. Right. You better have your.

[Thomas Moscow]

Exactly like getting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You better have your values aligned.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And if this is a long term thing. And here's the other thing, being completely solo, my overhead's low. Right. I can be a workaholic sometimes. Right. I have a hard time delegating. Right. Because I feel like it's not going to get done right.

[Thomas Moscow]

You have no staff. Right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I have no staff.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And it usually doesn't get done right. If I. That's why I don't hire staff. It usually doesn't get done Right. And then I get bent out of shape. But here's the other thing is I like to be lazy sometimes too. Right. And I don't need another partner looking at me like, how come you're not working so hard? And I also don't want to feel the same way towards them either, you know? And I did think about partnering up with someone. We almost did it. We almost did it.

[Thomas Moscow]

How close did you get?

[Tyson Mutrix]

We almost. We were at the bank to no bank account.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. So it was.

[Thomas Moscow]

Tell me this story. You're walking to the bank.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, we're there. And I guess her office manager had made the appointment at a bank that doesn't do lawyer trust accounts. Right. Which I'm like, okay, that's.

[Thomas Moscow]

Are you like, is that a sign?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, to me I'm like, this is why I don't delegate anything.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I was like, who? How could you even make that mistake? Right. We're here for an appointment. I took time out of my day. Either way, it was a good thing. But, you know, I just saw some red flags that came up and it actually ended up really bad where I said, okay, look, we're not going to do this, but there's a couple, like, clients. I'm just trying to do purely criminal defense, personal injury kind of thing right now. I got some business clients. She was more of a business attorney, doing contracts, business deals, whatever. And I had some business clients who were going to be recurring revenue, like basically paying a monthly fee, flat fee, not even retainer, like monthly flat fee for like a general counsel position.

[Thomas Moscow]

Wow.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And she ended up not doing the work. They start contacting me and then they're like, what's going on? I'm trying to contact her. Next thing you know, she's going radio silent. Clients wondering what's going on. Long story short, she told, I think she stole about 20, 30 grand from people.

[Thomas Moscow]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then I just went ahead and cleaned up the mess. I went ahead and just.

[Thomas Moscow]

But you, you had not partnered, right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

We had not completely.

[Thomas Moscow]

You were clean up. You had to clean up the mess.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, you know, I had introduced the client, so I'm like, I feel like, look, I want to do it. And then a couple of her clients that I didn't even know were hitting me up. They can't get in touch with her. And so I, I got their cases squared away with somebody else. And, and I'm not saying all partners are like that, but at that point, at this point, now that I've built what I've built, why do I want to split it up with somebody?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, no, I, I, I don't disagree. I'll never partner with somebody again. It'll, it'll, I just never will. You know, it's, I'm the same way. It's, I, I don't want that same obligation. The, the one of my, as, as a practicing attorney, one of my favorite days was the day we split up because I, all that pressure of like, you know, the same thing you talked about, like, what's he doing? Like, does he think that I'm not. Like, you're like, you're like, are they questioning what I'm doing? Am I questioning what he's doing kind of thing? Like, all that was gone. I'm like, okay, fresh start kind of a thing. It was, it was such a relief. So you're 100% right about that. What do you deal, how do you deal with situations? Like you're in court, clients calling you, they can't get to get a hold of you, so leave you a voicemail? I mean, you don't have someone answering your phone or do you have an answer?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have anybody answering my phone?

[Thomas Moscow]

Any issues with that, you know?

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, not at all. I mean, look, I tell my clients this. You call me, it goes to voicemail. I'm going to give you a call back, all right? Text me. Text messages go straight to my, my business line goes to my personal phone. I see it or email me, me, same thing. I'm gonna see it. And I will, I promise you, I will text you back and let you know, like, when I get out of court, I'll give you a Call. You know, these. These are the things that separate me from these other guys where it's like you're selling peace of mind, comfort. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

You ever take a vacation?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

And do you still answer the phone on vacation and all that or how do you deal with that?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I do, I do if I have service, you know, I let my clients know if I'm going to be out of town. I said, look, I'm going to be out of town, shoot me. Look, if you shoot me an email, it's cool. If it's an emergency, text me or whatever, I'll give you a call. But yeah, I still get to my phone. I mean, I just don't see the sense in having a gatekeeper who goes, law office. Yeah. Oh, let me see if he's available. And then checking with me and then getting back with the person, it's like I can text them back just as easy to go. I'll call you tomorrow. Is it an emergency? I'll call you tomorrow. If it's an emergency. I'll call you this evening.

[Thomas Moscow]

So what is your, what's your typical day like, other than like. So let's, I mean, are you spending a lot of time in court now or do you like. So, like, for example, today. Today or today's Saturday. So yesterday, Friday, courts.

[Tyson Mutrix]

The courts are pretty, pretty, pretty dead.

[Thomas Moscow]

So what's Monday look like for you? It's Veterans Day. So are your courts open?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, Monday, Veterans Day. So, you know, the courts will be closed.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay, so what about Tuesday? What's like.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, Tuesday will be a busy day for me. Right. So I have appearance downtown guy. We're gonna appear in court. He's got an arrest warrant. We're gonna get that recall so he can get booked over at the jail. That's going to be at 8:30. At 9:30 I have a big sentencing, big media case, triple death. DUI death has been the biggest DUI death in the county this year. It's getting sentenced 9:30. The judge told me, be there right away because they want to call it first. They have increased security for that case. I also, at the same time, I still prosecute cases in Boulder City, so we do a specialty court there. Really drug court conference. And Tuesday is like my heavy day there. I only go out there like five times a month, but I'm supposed to be doing a staffing on Zoom from 8 to 10. I've already told them I'm not going to be there for that. So after I get done with the sentencing, that should be done around 10:30. And then I'll probably just chill until I got to go to Boulder city at around 2:30. And then I'll go handle, you know, it'll be a bunch of pre trials, maybe eight or 10 prosecutor cases where I'm prosecuting again, the defense attorneys aren't doing anything on the case. And I, I've been in the game long enough. Like I know how to get the cases done right with them. And so, you know, I'll get done around five, and then we'll do the specialty court, which goes from five to like seven. So it's a long day. And then go pick up my son after that. That's like a typical day. So the only thing that throws a wrench in my day is if a potential client calls me out of the blue.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right. So what do you do in those situations? Because those are, those can create tough situations.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sometimes I do it and I close them. Yeah, right. Yeah. But that's going to be a half hour, hour out of my day.

[Thomas Moscow]

Exactly.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I spend the time with them on the phone. Right. And then I get a gauge on what they need. And then if, if they do want to sign with me, then I'll make sure I get over to my, my case thing. I've got my automated templates I've made for my retainer agreement. Spit it out. They can either sell me or the retainer agreement, but that could throw a wrench. So if I get three consults in a day.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

My slow day just turned into, you know, would you really get some work done?

[Thomas Moscow]

Maybe look at some discovery? Yes. Yeah. All that. Yeah. Or, or they call, I need a bond hearing. It's bonding tomorrow. That kind of a thing. That, that, that part can kind of throw a wrench in things.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It can, but that's the nature of the business. But man, if you're doing that, you're making money.

[Thomas Moscow]

Absolutely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's why I was wondering, like, if, like sometimes receptionist could help field those calls for you. Help.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. But you know what? When these people are calling around, they're calling around. Right. And so I know when I first left the DA's office, some criminal attorneys wanted me to work for them because they're like, they know I could just handle the whole case, even the client. Like, I could handhold. Like they wouldn't have to do anything.

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They go, if I could just be in the office all day. Because whoever they call, whoever gets them on the phone first.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, I can see that you're going to get them. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so I'll tell you, a lot of times I answer the phone, I go, hey, this is attorney Thomas Moscow. And they go, is this the attorney? I go, yeah, it is. They're like, I wasn't expecting to talk to the attorney. I was wanting to get a consultation. I go, can we schedule something? I said, well, you got me on the phone right now. What seems to be the situation? And they go. They just go into it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Then 20 minutes later, I'm kind of giving the lay of the land about around 20 or 30 minutes now. I've done enough. These calls where it's like not to be a businessman about it, but this is what I charge, and this is how it would proceed. Does that sound unreasonable to you?

[Thomas Moscow]

Nice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Hear the answer. They go, man, that is outside of my price range. How much were you looking to spend?

[Thomas Moscow]

So you. So you'll quote a price, but then sometimes you'll maybe, like, see what they're. What they're willing to pay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, this is like something. It's like Alex Hormozi, you follow him a little bit. It's like he says. He goes, you've had this conversation a thousand, ten thousand times. They've had it once. Comments. Yeah, you kind of. So I like this. That's what I charge. And then if they can't afford that, how much were you looking to spend? Right. And then I'll hear it, and then I'll go, maybe I will take the case. Especially if we had a good conversation. I got a good feeling. They're not a problem client.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I feel like I want to help them, like they're in a situation. But if it's something where I'm like, well, you know what? Let me refer you over to somebody. I got a guy, he doesn't charge. It's not going to be the Thomas Moscow defense. But look, your case is pretty simple. You're not going to jail on it, in my opinion. Call this guy. He's been doing it for 15 years. I refer him over business. He's a criminal attorney, and he's a criminal attorney that actually refers bigger cases to me. And trust me, when he refers a case to me because he doesn't want to handle it because it's too big, it's good money. When they come to me, it's like, this is a big case. And another criminal defense attorney has said, this is the guy you want to go.

[Thomas Moscow]

Referrals are the nicest, especially a situation like that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then they look you up and they're like, Chief prosecutor.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then I call them, I go, hey, I'm not cheap.

[Thomas Moscow]

What are some of the things that you struggle with whenever it comes, like running the firm?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, man. Just the normal. If I want to hire an assistant, I'm trying to get my checklist of what I would have somebody do. But ordering the discovery, getting it, I like to make it available to my clients. So creating the Dropbox Share file, sharing it to them with the email, organizing the case file. I like it organized, like my filings by date, you know, these little things that somebody should be able to do this for me, but I got to train them how to do it. Those kinds of things kind of like can take up a lot of time, you know, organizing. As far as file retention. Right. Get the stuff scanned in. All right, let's take it off of our server now. We got it into, you know, was it Backblaze? And then also our hard. That's like big time cloud file retention.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like, you could trust it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Backblaze backs up. And it's like you get so many terabytes it costs. Most of these criminal attorneys don't want to pay for it. But you do have state bar ethical file retention guidelines. Right. And then also I have a hard copy just in case something happens. With Backblaze, even this is the most trusted one. I think I have the hard copy. Back that up. I spent a lot of time doing that. And then bookkeeping, Right. Not that I keep my own books, but I gotta check with the bookkeeper's putting out, right? Taxes, you know, subscriptions, LexisNexis. I mean, there's everything to it when you're solo, right.

[Thomas Moscow]

It sounds like you like. Like everything's gone, like, extremely well for you, which is. Which is awesome. I mean, have there been any, like, you know, dark moments?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I've been through every emotion.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I've been through every emotion.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. I want to hear about, you know, I want to hear about the. I've heard about all the good stuff. I want to hear the other stuff. Like, what's, what's some of the stuff you're like, gosh damn it. Like, any times where you're like, almost like thinking about hanging it up, you know what I mean?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Like, look, man, so I'm in year three. I finally had the moment of, like, I have enough data of every month is good. Every month keeps beating the prior month, right? It's like, record setting month, record setting month, record setting month. Everything's going to be fine. But, man, when you first start you don't know, you know? Yeah. You sign two clients, but what. What's the next one come in? The phone didn't ring this week.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What am I gonna do, you know? Should I go get a job somewhere? Man, this is a lot, you know, running around, learning how to get from courtroom to courtroom. And at the same time, like I said, I got the two year old, I had the son, he's small. Me and his mom had broken up. So I was going through that at the same time trying to get.

[Thomas Moscow]

The same time. You're starting a firm.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, man, it was, it was like, like I remember July 2022, I was sitting there like I could not just. I just couldn't get it together. And I had all those same thing. The partner just ripped somebody off. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

So. Yeah, this is the same time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Come on. It always happened when things go bad, they go bad. Yeah, right. But you come out of that and you're stronger. But yeah, you know, the main thing is like, are you going to be able to make money? I mean, that's what everybody's thinking. Can you make money? Especially when you got job offers coming at you and they're like, I'm getting, you know, I'm an experienced attorney. I'm 10, 12 years in the game. I'm getting. When I get offered, like, this is a good salary.

[Thomas Moscow]

Did any.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Did any of them get you to the point where you're like, you were like, seriously considering taking the job?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, yeah. Earlier. Now that I've had the. The moment.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You're never. Look, this is the one thing. My mom, she ran a bar when I was growing up. Okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

That's an interesting childhood.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But she ran her own bar and she was kind of like the. This, well, I'll call her the queen, but she's like the king of her own universe. Right. She had her own little microcosm out there. She ran stuff, man. Nobody's telling her what to do. And I always had that feeling. But I also knew this in law, just because watching my mom and watching business owners come up. In law, the only way you're going to make real money is by being the business owner.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

There's a reason why lawyers make a lot of money as employees. Because the business is making a ton of money to pay a lawyer 200 grand a year, 300 grand a year. How much is the firm making off of you to pay you that much?

[Thomas Moscow]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. But if you're making that much money, and I know if I paid somebody 300 grand a year. You better be busting your ass. You better be. Right. But as an owner, you can make 300 grand a year and not work too hard like you could potentially.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I. I stand right here. I'll go. I'll say it. I'll go. I was working a lot harder when I was a prosecutor than I am now.

[Thomas Moscow]

Now. Really?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

I mean, that's kind of surprising. I. I think that the vast majority of criminal defense attorneys that would. That would hear, that would think that's kind of surprising. I mean, that's. That's good for you. That's excellent.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I. I don't know. I mean, I know some attorney. I talked to them at coffee, but there's guys who have it figured out. They do have it figured out. Now, that's a small. Like, that's a minority of them, because everybody's trying to get a piece. But the guys who've really made a living doing it. I had a dermatologist, he asked me what kind of law I'm in. I go, I'm doing criminal defense. And he goes, I have a lot of friends that are lawyers. He goes, the happiest ones are the criminal defense guys. And why. It's not paperwork intensive. Right. You got to have a personality to be able to pull it off. Well, you got to pull the clients in. But 99 of cases, just like in PI, 99% of cases are resolving. You're not going to trial on those. The guys who are having a tough time are the guys who are. And they make a business of it, and they like what they're doing. But if you're doing appointed work, contract work for the government, terrible. You're doing a lot of indigent cases, which the system needs, and they get.

[Thomas Moscow]

Paid until the end of the case.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well. Or they're paying you 5,000amonth, and you're taking a ton of cases. And then if you go to trial.

[Thomas Moscow]

Missouri's not paying that much. That's really. Yeah, that's.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, they're paying like 5,000amonth to a contract attorney. And you're taking everything that the public defender is conflicting off of. And then the federal. The federal ones pay better. If, you know, the federal panel.

[Thomas Moscow]

Federal. Yeah. CJA panels. I was going to ask you about that. Have you thought about doing federal? Because those are all high dollar cases. Like, they're. You're not going to do anything that's under, like, 20 grand, you know, like, it's all gonna be 20 grand.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, from CJA?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. Or. No, I'M federal. Like private. Private.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No. Yeah. Federal case may. Shouldn't charge less than six figures.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, you're.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You're getting. Now, you're not getting much retained work out there. Okay, there's not. But if a retained case comes through, you should be getting over six figures on it if you get retained on it.

[Thomas Moscow]

They're all big dollar cases, every single one of them.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, well, also, the guys are facing a ton of time.

[Thomas Moscow]

Absolutely.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And, you know, it is what it is. But the CJA is. Is cool. I do want to get into it just to learn more about the federal system. I do some work with legal aid, like some 1983 cases, so I can learn how to do those things. But as far as doing appointed work, I mean, look, even if they're paying you 150 an hour, 170 an hour, you know, 200 an hour, whatever it is. And they're not paying that much.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's still not a great hourly rate. They're still slashing your bills. Just like an insurance company with slashing insurance defense bills. You better not bill too much, you know? Like, you got a thousand pages of discovery. Charge about this much for it doesn't matter. But if you actually looked at it, God forbid you sit there like I do on a case and start researching a bunch of case law to make some kind of bespoke motion, Right?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They're like, you spent how long on that motion? 10 hours. No, you're not taking any more CJ cases if you do that. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Do you ever feel like you're spreading yourself too thin?

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, because I don't spend a lot of time on the work. Like, I was a litigation monster. Right? So I. I say this. Prosecutors I go against. If I spend a weekend putting together three motions a weekend. Right. Which I would have to be working morning till night to put together three motions.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You're gonna have to spend two weeks on it. Like, I'm that efficient with what I do. I practice that much litigating.

[Thomas Moscow]

Do you do anything other than, like, run the business and practice law? I mean, because, like. Like, do you have any hobbies that you do outside of work?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

What do you like to do?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, number one, I'm a dad. My dad. My son's five and a half now, so.

[Thomas Moscow]

Other than other. Yeah, other than being a father, what are the.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I mean, that's the huge. That's the huge thing. It's like reliving my own childhood.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, we have. I got. The Nerf war is set up to all the Nerf guns got loaded up today. His mom picked him up. I said, nerf war tomorrow morning, pick him up. All the Nerf guns are loaded up. We're gonna do it up. I take him to his extracurricular activities. But yeah, when I, when I have a night away from him, that's when I am trying to get my work done. Right. I'm trying to work on my automation, my document. Automation is the big one for me. Right. And then I'm trying to do the work on my cases and do that. But man, I get to the gym every day around 10 in the morning, 10:30.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, working out is important.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It is. And people like, man, you're living the life. I go, I'm getting, I'm in the gym with the retired.

[Thomas Moscow]

No, you're putting in the work.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Gotta put in the reps.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But it's like that time is available to me. Yeah, I practice the guitar. Call of Duty 6 just came out. Black Ops 6 just came out on PlayStation.

[Thomas Moscow]

It just came out.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

October. Yeah, the end of October, they, they released it. So I'm not as into it as I was a couple years ago. Black, I think that was more procrastination.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

With the dark, the dark times of the firm, like. But as long as you just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Right. And then the firm. Eventually I got the website going and now I'm really at the point with the firm now it's kind of an exciting time where all I got to do is turn the stove up, you know?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Turn the marketing up. Like you said, if I run some. And I'm, I'm really thinking about it. But I had to set up my solo 401k. I did a ton of research on that over the summer, how to get that set up. I'm at the very final stages of that.

[Thomas Moscow]

Nice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so that was like one big to do off the list. And then it's like, man, my old SEO company, they're, you know, I know they know what they're doing because they work with, they worked with some PI firms that I was friends with and they got my stuff off. And so it's like as soon as I call them up, like, hey, let's go ahead and do it. Let's run about $3,000 a month budget on the Google Ads.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Because that's about the minimum we can do until I get inundated. Let's start getting my SEO up a little bit more. I Do want to get into the social media, back into Tick Tocks and ig like, really doing it the way I do it. Just organic. I used to do it in my car, start getting that out. And so as far as the, the hobbies, like, yeah, I, I work out just to keep the machine going. I'm there for my son and. But, you know, I don't really go out anymore or anything like that. It's more about the business. I mean, what about you? You probably focus on the business most. So here in Vegas, doing. Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

So I've got the two business. I've got Maximum Lawyer and the. And then I've got the. The firm. So that, I mean, the ma. The firm's the, the main focus. And then we got Maximum Lawyers, a big part of it too. And yeah, we were out here for a mastermind. But yeah, I work out. I do Jiu Jitsu. I like to fly. I'm a pilot, so I like to fly. So I think. I think having those hobbies is really important.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How old are you? Can I ask?

[Thomas Moscow]

41. Just a little bit younger than you.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. So my son's in Muay Thai over at this place called mma. Sean Strickland training.

[Thomas Moscow]

I love to do Muay Thai and.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But they have the, the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu on the other side. They got the cage and the people are training. They. They got some amateur fighters that are about to turn pro, a couple pro fighters fighting out of there. And I'm always looking at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. You. It's just at this point, it's like. And you'll see. I mean, you're 41, so you're seeing it a little bit, but you'll see when you get injured, it just does.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. Whenever I went, when I shook your hand, my shoulder pop. I had that shoulder surgery a couple weeks ago. So I was like, oh, gosh, that was from. This is from a car crash.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah, so that was. That was fun. But, yeah, I know what you mean. It's, it's, it's tough, but it's one of those things, like, because we do work out because we're healthy, like, my recovery's not gonna be that long. I mean, I'm gonna have pretty good recovery, and so I'll be good to.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It in a few years, you'll see. I mean, I was just doing some push ups the other day, and my wrist was like, just from doing push ups.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I. Some. Something happened in there, right. And I'm gonna tell you what I'VE been dealing with this. I don't even know how this thumb got. I don't know if I hit it against something, but it's like when I'm lifting weights, sometimes it just taps the bar a little bit.

[Thomas Moscow]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Five months still. It's still.

[Thomas Moscow]

You need to go get that checked out by a doctor.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. What are they going to do?

[Thomas Moscow]

I don't know.

[Tyson Mutrix]

When you break a finger, they can't even do anything.

[Thomas Moscow]

Go in there and take a little.

[Tyson Mutrix]

The healing time is insane. So I'm a little bit reluctant to get on the mat, but I've heard great things. You don't have the cauliflower ear?

[Thomas Moscow]

No. It's funny. This ear swelled up and I had to drain it with a needle. So that. So that's because if you drain it, you'll find you're fine. But I. It did break the cartilage in my left ear to. So that's what causes the cartilage breaks. But there's something about it. It's like, it's. It's kind of like trying to case in a way where, like, you. Sometimes you'll take your lumps and it's. And it's not necessarily that you lose, but sometimes you'll take your lumps in a trial. You know, like, you're, like the other side gets. Get some good shots in. And like whenever you are, like you're rolling with somebody, somebody, sometimes people get you in a really compromised position and it sucks. You know, it's. It really sucks. But you know what? You also get other people. So like, you're humbled sometimes, which. You need that a little bit. It grounds you. But then also there's the, the confidence part where you're. You're rolling somebody else and you're. You're getting that position and you're making them tap. And so it, There's a lot of that where. And there's a lot of the camaraderie when it comes to rolling with people, and you're rolling with the same people over and over again and learn these different techniques and learn these little bitty things. Things. And it's kind of like you're talking about like the hormozy thing about like, like it's their one call. They've done. You've done it a thousand times. Same thing with, with Jiu jitsu. Like, I'm a white belt. I'm. I'm at three stripes. And so if I, if I roll with a brand new person, I know so much more. And I don't know anything. Here's the thing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

But I know so much more just because I've gone just a little bit longer. That's what's really cool. You start to see those little bitty things.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's very intellectual.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yes, yes, yes, it very is, because you're. You're not making one move at a time. You're making, like, 12 moves at a time. So it's like 12. Boob, chest. Like, there's so many different things. You do it in every given moment, but both sides are trying to figure it out at the exact same time. And so that's what. There's a lot. There is a lot. Lot of thinking involved, but it's also. It's very physical, too. And the. I think the humbling part of it is probably the most important part of it, though, just to really ground you, because I think we do need that sometimes.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I want. I want to try it. I want to get into it. I know I would really enjoy it. I'm a little reluctant about the. Because of the injury side of it.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's why I stopped playing basketball. Those things, like, you know, being injured sucks at this point, but you got to find the right gym where it's like, you're not dealing with some young guys with egos like, they like.

[Thomas Moscow]

Or people that don't know what they're doing. That's where you get injured. If you. If you roll with the guys that are, like, higher belts or that know that, then you won't get injured. You'll never get injured, because they know how to protect you. You.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

It's. It's the ones where you are. If you're rolling with a newbie, that's where you'll get hurt.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right?

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

But. So I want to. I want to end on this, though. I want to know, because it seems like you're really driven, and I wonder, like, what. What drives you? And. And what. What's your end game? Like, what do you. Where do you want to take this thing?

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, I'm just. I'm just taking it as it comes, man. When I went to law school, I didn't know I wanted to be a lawyer. I didn't.

[Thomas Moscow]

Interesting. Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I got out of there, and I went back to my hometown of my best friend. He's just a hustler, man. And I said, yeah, I don't know if I want to be a lawyer. He says, so you spent all this money in law school? I went, yeah. He goes, and you. You worked really hard for three years Got your law degree? I said, yeah. And he goes, but you don't know if you want to be a lawyer. I said, yeah, I don't know. And he goes, but you haven't tried it yet. I went, I kind of see where you're going with this. He goes, man, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. So I gave it a try. I like it. I knew I wanted to come into private practice. I'm only three years in. I mean, at some point life could take me a different direction. So I don't really have a long term plan. I just know as long as I'm not dreading this, that's my thing. Like the Prosecutor's Office 1. I started dreading going in once I started dreading going into a job. I can't stay there. I'm not the, the, what is the Oscar Wilde life of lonely desperation, whatever. Now that's not me. So.

[Thomas Moscow]

Well, you don't want a job, right? As a law, as a law firm owner, you don't want a job, and so you don't have a job right now. That's good. I think that's good.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. No, so it's cool. It affords me a lot of freedom, but I do feel like I'm a little bit wasted. I would like to go work on like some complex litigation.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, I think, I think you need.

[Thomas Moscow]

Something that's going to really motivate you and push you. I feel like you are. I, I feel like you're coasting right now and I feel like you need to be pushed.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It is. No, I, like I am coasting, but at the same time I got my priority, which is I want to be as president as I can for my son. Now he's five and a half. I think once he gets to seven, he's almost there at seven, it's pretty much like my job's done.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, not, not in a comical way, but really like as far as psychologists say, if you get everything right from to 7 years old old, where they feel confident, secure, everything's good, parenting gets real easy, they start developing their.

[Thomas Moscow]

Own self sufficiency is great.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I'm, I'm just now feeling in this last year like I'm able to start grinding more. I mean, man, this summer is about as busy as a person could be. I was busy, you know, and I was getting these business processes set up and so it just takes time. I just say, I got a big saying, you know, peace equals pace. Go slow, homie, go slow. Right. Like you're not in a race with anybody else. And bills are paid, finances are good things. Look on the up and up. But if I look long term, if I stay doing this, I am looking to figure out how I can scale criminal. Right. How can I scale it? Because as soon as I turn the marketing up, I'm not gonna be able to do it on my own. I'm not. And so. But financial independence, right? You know, I'm 45, I'm looking at. By the time I'm 55, can I be in a position where I'm working? Because I kind of want to. You know, I'm not feeling that pressure of like that hunched over guy in his 50s. Where are my leads coming from? Oh, my God. You know, they had a guy, John Mahmut, he was in the casino, the movie. Okay. Robert De Niro's attorneys were Oscar Goodman, and John Mahmut was right next to him. They were legends, right? John Mamet just died about a year ago. Show. But that guy, he married like five different showgirls. Over his life, he's been married and divorced, right? He lived it up, but at the end of his career, he's coming up to court every day and he's carrying his oxygen tank with the tubes going into his nose, still making appearances based on who he was and every prosecutor he'd see. I was a young Prosecutors don't leave the D A S office. Get your bench in. Get your bench in. That was his advice. Right.

[Thomas Moscow]

Wow.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I said, but you know what? That guy, he really lived it up in his heyday, but he did not set himself up to be in a position of. Bill Terry was the same way. He worked until he died. Right? And it's like, you gotta make sure that, like, your need for money is not there anymore. And law is a beautiful way to do it. Is it like the passion, the sexiest job in the world? You know, I, I don't, I don't know, but I'm hoping 10 years from now I'm in a position where maybe the business is kind of running itself. You know, I can kind of recede back and kind of be the face, kind of make some rain maybe. I'm not doing criminal defense anymore. I'm really looking at some of these federal statutes that have attorney fee provisions shifting. You know, where you're suing the federal government for certain things, whether it's environmental, whatever. I know a couple guys that do that and they make, you know, five, 600 grand a year, and there's only about five or six guys in the country who do it it, and nobody knows. And you just got to find one statute.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You become an expert in that consumer protection. Here they got attorneys fee shifting provision. You could sue a used car dealership. The more they fight it, next thing you know, they're on the hook for 75 grand in attorney's fees over a 1500 dispute because they're fighting it. So looking into all kinds of things like that, I think criminal defense can be a huge grind.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

A lot of guys can wear on them, so.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. Well, what I hope is that, you know, 10 years from now, five years from now, you go, like, go back and listen to this and you kind of. You think like, okay, and like, you've. At that point, you've kind of gotten to where you, you know, where you want to be with this. I. I think that'd be kind of a cool thing for you to come. Come back and listen to a little bit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, it would be.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. So hopefully that you'll. You'll do that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. I journal a lot, and just going back to a journal from three years ago, you're like. That's what I was thinking.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. So.

[Thomas Moscow]

So. Well, Thomas, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. So I know you're. You got. Got an event to go to, so. But really appreciate you taking the time. I know we went pretty long here, but I think it was. It was fun.

[Tyson Mutrix]

No, you. No, man. I know you had a long day, man, so.

[Thomas Moscow]

Yeah. Thanks, man.