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- [00:01]
Tyson Mutrix
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month.
- [00:57]
Steve Fretson
That's right.
- [00:58]
Tyson Mutrix
No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law.
- [01:20]
Steve Fretson
This.
- [01:21]
Tyson Mutrix
Is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.
- [01:29]
Steve Fretson
Steve, you said that business development is the second most important thing a lawyer can do. And what's really interesting to me is anytime I talk to law students, I always talk to them about the number one thing is bringing clients because nothing else matters, because you can't do anything else unless you have clients. So I found this one really interesting. And so that's why I wanted to start with this. What do you think the first, what is the first, what's the most important thing to you and why is it that you rank them in that order?
- [02:00]
Tyson Mutrix
I think I was giving lawyers a little bit of a break by not saying business development was number one because so many of them don't do it. What I typically say is that you need to be a great lawyer. You can bring in business and then just destroy your reputation within months or weeks if you're not able to do the work that you're bringing in. So I get that when you're a new lawyer and you don't know anything other than what you learned in law school, that you've got to take it slow. But hopefully you have mentors. Hopefully you have, you know, you take your time with, with a particular case or matter and work through it and know that it's going to Come out well, but ultimately be a great lawyer, number one. And then number two is you got to develop your own clients. Otherwise, you know, there's no, there's nothing to be great about.
- [02:41]
Steve Fretson
Yeah, it's, it's not that I wouldn't even say I've got a disagreement with it. I think it's just kind of an interesting thing as our perspectives as like the approaches we've taken on it. Because I can't, I can't disagree with the fact that you've got to be. You've got to be a great lawyer. That is something that I've been focusing a little bit more on. Talking about with people is like you, the business side is extremely important. But actually you can't go to, you name the business, you can't go to a mechanic. My dad's a mechanic, so I'll use that one. Right. If my dad is, it does a terrible job. Right. People are going to stop going to him. That's just part of it. Same thing. And it's not just that with mechanics especially, you've got to do a great job and you've got to take care of them and they've got to know that you care. Otherwise they're just going to go to one of the other dozens of mechanics that are in your town. Same thing with lawyers. Like you just, you have to do, you have to do not just a good job. Like you have to leave them feeling like they, that you did a great job. And so part of that is explaining to them, hey, here are the things we're doing. So I guess what are, what are some ways that you think attorneys can demonstrate value?
- [03:53]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, here's an interesting twist. And one of the reasons I say you need to be a great lawyer, because lawyers are notorious for doing pitches and going on pitch meetings. And the terminology right there is insinuating, selling, convincing, free consulting. Like it's all there on the table and we're building value and all that through what we say. And I'm completely opposed to that. I go the other direction. My program is in. My first book is Sales Free selling. What does that mean? It means that we're going to walk a buyer through a buying decision to ensure that it's a fit and it's a win win, and everybody's coming out happy at the end of it. And that doesn't happen when you're just talking through a meeting and solving people's problems very early. I went to a doctor recently. I had some, some, just some clockage in my nose. The Guy didn't just say, here, you got clockage in your nose. Here, take this. He spent a good 10 minutes asking me questions, do I have this? Do I have that? And all that diagnosis was critical to his being able to prescribe the right. And by the way, I've been on this medicine for like, four days, and I feel a thousand times better. So I think what we need to do is we need to help lawyers figure out that the traditional model of selling and the traditional model of what they're being told or shown or what they believe needs to be done is to sell. So. So where does that relate to what your question was? Is we. We can demonstrate and drive up belief and trust in all the things that help us work with people better through the great questions we ask. The bedside manner and the trust that's developed versus the sizzle of the stake and the pitch and the convincing and the talking.
- [05:31]
Steve Fretson
Yeah, that's interesting. I. Whenever I did criminal defense, it was always kind of like, what can you do for me? Like, you know, what do you. What do you think I'm going to get here? Do you think you get the charges dismissed? Or now it's, what's the case worth? Like, that is. That is the number one question we get probably is, you know, what do you think the case is worth? And I always tell them, I don't answer that question at this stage. If I answer that question, I'd be lying to you. I wonder what your advice would be to lawyers with what you were just talking about. What's the best way, do you think, to. Instead of answering that question, walking them through the process.
- [06:07]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that's a great question. And one of the things I teach my clients is we have to diagnose before we prescribe. And when someone comes in and they want rates and that someone wants information and free consulting up front, we need to have a really solid method of how we don't reject them, but how we accept them and. And help guide them to when the more appropriate time to have that conversation would be. And I'll give you two or three examples of that. I call it agree and redirect. And it sounds something like this. You know, that's a great question, Tyson. Everyone I talk to wants to know, you know, what they're going to get or what the rates are, whatever the issue is that you're asking about. Unfortunately, you're on step 10. I'm only on step two from a standpoint of really understanding what your needs are and what's going to help me Answer that question. So if you're okay, if I can just ask you a few more questions, I promise you will get to your question about my rates at the end of the meeting. Would that be okay for you? And you get the person to nod and agree. So it's not. We're not dismissing them. We're saying, that's a brilliant question. I get that all the time. This is when it's better to talk about it. And I've got one more good one I think you're gonna love. Okay, you ready?
- [07:16]
Steve Fretson
I love it. That one. I can't wait to hear it. Yeah, let's hear it.
- [07:18]
Tyson Mutrix
All right here. This is a good one. So you asked me about, like, what my rates are, and I've got all these different ideas about what they should be based on the case. And I would say something like, you know, that is a fantastic question. I know we got to talk about budget and rates and all that. Unfortunately, right now it's like asking me, you know, what does a bag of groceries cost? You know, I have no idea what's in the bag. So if you're all right with it, let's just. Let's just take a few more minutes to ask. Allow me to ask a few more questions, and I promise you, you know, we'll get to that, you know, before we leave the meeting today. Is that something that would work for you? And I'm nodding, and you're nodding, and the. And that's work. Taking back control of something. Because if I answer the questions and I tell you, you know, that's a great question. I charge about a million dollars an hour. What's that person going to be thinking about for the next, you know, 20 minutes? We're in the meeting. Million dollars an hour. Million dollars an hour. They're not going to be in the meeting with you. All they're going to be doing is thinking, how do I get out of here? I don't have a million dollars an hour for this guy. Right. So we need to have a good way of securing trust, not rejecting someone's idea, agreeing with them, and then redirecting them to what makes more sense.
- [08:19]
Steve Fretson
It's kind of whenever I'm thinking in a. It's not going well, I don't think we're to settle. I'm thinking like, okay, all right. Every. Every hour is a $400 for this mediator. What's this bill gonna be? Yeah, because like, this, for nothing. We're just spending money for zero reason here. I kind of get that feeling.
- [08:38]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [08:38]
Steve Fretson
You know, I've got a, this is out of left field with this. Do you have any opinions on flat rate versus hourly billing versus subscription models? I wonder what your thoughts are on all those.
- [08:51]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, that's a great question as well. I'm still finding that most lawyers and their clients are still accepting of the billable hour. Right. That that's still sort of the norm of things. However, we are potentially in going into a very interesting economic time and climate. I know M and A and some other areas are really slowing down. People are going to be tightening up their belts and coming up with some subscription or flat rates or ways of doing things that are more modern. That's the future of law. I don't know that people are going to continue the billable hour when we have AI resolving, you know, 10 out of 12 hours of a potential matter. So we're going to have to come up with different ways. And so I'm, I'm a big fan. A friend of mine you may know is, is Matthew Kirbys the subscription attorney. And. Right. So like he's charging a flat fee for monthly use of, you know, having a lawyer. And then there's extras that flat fees that go on top of it. And you know, if you get 100, 200, 300 clients under that model, you're going to be doing all right. So I think, I think lawyers start to, you need to, need to continue thinking creatively about how they're delivering their services and what model is going to resonate best with clients in different economic times.
- [10:03]
Steve Fretson
Yeah, I mean, cash flow is always important, but I think it's especially important for subscription based models because you have to factor in that, hey, like at some point we're going have to do the work. And my worry for some, some people that are doing subscription is that they don't, they just factor in, okay, what's, what are we going to get per month? And then they're not factoring in. We might get hit one month where everybody is wanting some work done and you know, we're so we're going to get hit. If we don't have that money in the tank to pay our employees, that, that could be a big hit. So that's, it's an interesting problem. Are you worried at all about AI?
- [10:38]
Tyson Mutrix
I would say I'm worried about, I mean, other than, you know, like the grid shutting down or you know, AI hitting a button that sends off nuclear weapons. If we take it down a notch from that.
- [10:48]
Steve Fretson
Yes, please do. Let's not go into that.
- [10:52]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay. I'LL keep, I'll keep it, I'll keep it clean here. I think what we're talking about here is an opportunity. You know, before there were tractors, there were horses in the fields plowing, right? So we have to continue to evolve with the technology that's in front of us. And my new book, be that Lawyer 101 Top Rainmaker Secrets to Growing a Successful Law Practice, was my ability to leverage my interviews from my podcast through an editor, AI and my own, my own writing, to take them, truncate them down and to actually put together a book of what 101 rainmakers would tell you their best secrets and tips are. And for me to take that book and write that from listening to the podcast over and over again and writing that book, it probably would have taken me a year. I think we wrote this book in about three months. So, you know, AI, I think is, is, you know, it's something that's going to make legal and other, all professions more efficient if you know how to use it. I think that the key takeaway for lawyers right now is like I would say about business development and a lot of other things. You're either a student of the game or you're left behind. Where do you want to be if you're not doing business development and marketing and social media? You're being left behind. And for me, if I don't get involved in AI early and start not only using it, but teaching it, then I'm being left behind as a coach and I'm being left behind in how I develop better marketing, better video, better transcripts, better, you know, foreign languages, anything that I can use it for. So I want to, I always try to emulate what I do for my clients and I think we've got to look, we've got to step into AI and not be afraid of it, but leverage it.
- [12:29]
Steve Fretson
I agree with that. I do sometimes worry about us maybe that we have rose colored glasses on and we're, we're not looking at the realities that are potentially coming. So I do, I do try to level my thinking when it comes to things like that, because you're totally right. I completely view it as a tool. Something we did a couple weeks ago is we kind of noticed that the, the AI was being used at the top, at the firm, but not necessarily at the bottom. But there were like a few people with like within in the middle were using it and we, we wanted to do a training on it and it was really eye opening. So we did a training for the entire firm and everyone was like, wow. They were just completely wowed by it. I just wonder if you have any guidance on how firms could implement it more throughout the firm as opposed to just top down.
- [13:16]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, you know, that's a great question. I think there's still a lot of, of questions and ambiguity about how that should happen. And I'm not really in the, if I'm being honest, I'm not really in the law firm specific space. I'm really working with individual attorneys, so it's a little more challenging for me to ask that question. But I would imagine that the people that work at the firms, the lawyers that work at the firms, the paralegals, need to get direction from the top down because if they just start using it on their own and doing whatever they want and it ends up being a problem for the firm, they could get themselves in a pickle. So I think firms need to have policies on AI use and if they don't, they're just burying their heads in the sand. I think that could lead to some problems. And then, but, but I do like the idea of lawyers leaning in to create content to do better social media posts. And I'm following more lawyers now than ever that are writing really intelligent and, and interesting posts on LinkedIn. And I know a lot of it's AI generated. That doesn't mean it isn't interesting. Sure, right. I mean, it's just, it's, it's sometimes better written than they would do on their own. So I, I think, I think, you know, there's gotta be a connection between the, the firm ownership and, and the minions underneath that are going to get it done. But, but without having a policy, I think it's still, it's like the wild west.
- [14:27]
Steve Fretson
I will say this I am a little concerned about, I agree with you. The content is actually better than what the person probably would have written. But I do think that there's a disconnect between that person who may be one way and then the writing is a different way where there's, there's almost like a branding disconnect where, okay, you're, you're, you're communicating in a certain way in writing. I then meet you in person and I have a, it's like a, the record scratches, you know, we're like, wait, wait, wait, hold on a second. This is not consistent. Do you have any? And I guess the other thing is like, I'm, there's now so much content. It is, it has exploded since AI has hit a few years ago now. And there's that too, where it's almost like it's just so much more noise, you know, And I guess it makes it so much more important to make sure you are different. Your voice is a little bit different. So do you have any advice for lawyers on cutting through all the noise and getting their names out there so that they are. Their marketing efforts are not wasted?
- [15:30]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I think, I think if we're looking at people just like I was talking to a client the other day and he's like, I'm posting all the time on LinkedIn. Look, I got super lawyer and I got this award and I got that award. And I go, you know, that's 20%. Like, that's 20% of what you should be posting on social media with your content. 80% needs to be informative, educational, interesting, authentic. I will do a post about fishing with my son, which is not for LinkedIn, right? Other than I then compare LinkedIn. I mean, I compare phishing to business development for lawyers. You know, you got to have the right lures, you got to find the right spots, you got to do other. You know, I'll relate it to an article from above, the law that I've written. I'm going to make it work within that particular social media channel that I'm posting. But authentic, real information education, showing your knowledge on things that other people don't know enough about. My friend, that the one I was just talking about, who's in the M and A space, he knows what's going on in the economy better than anyone and how it's affecting business and how it's affecting deals and tariffs and how all that works. He says, I'm not going to get political, but I need to write and share my views and my knowledge because I'm ahead of everybody else. This is, you know, again, and he is, he's. He's on the, he's on the forefront of it. And I think that's what cuts through some of the clutter that we're seeing on LinkedIn is how can you be authentic and how can you put something forward that's interesting to people when there's just a lot of mess out there?
- [16:57]
Steve Fretson
I think maybe the best way I've seen it said is there's. Man, I wish I could remember her name. Russell Brunson had this event a couple years ago. It was a virtual event. And one of the speakers, she was talking about the different legs of her platform, her online platform. And like, one of them was family, another one was her business. And yada, yada, yada. I thought it was a really interesting way. So like, if I'll just kind of make it up like, like with, with mine, maybe mine is, you know, you've got, you know, family, you've got the podcast, you got the law firm. I like Jiu Jitsu, so we'll say Jiu Jitsu. And then I know that you're, you were in that plane crash, which I'll ask you about in a little bit, but you were, then you may be at me as a pilot. So, like, those are like the five things that I maybe will post about. But the majority of it needs to be, you know, adding that value and you can kind of tie it back to the firm for like, for example, like, let's say that I wanted to just post about like injury related stuff, but I'm flying an airplane and I'm going through my checklist. Maybe I post something about a. Check my checklist.
- [17:56]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [17:57]
Steve Fretson
Now how important checklists are in the law firm too? So you can still, even though it's about flying, it's, it's now back to practicing personal injury. You know, so there's, I think that that is the way she had put it really changed the way I view things on social media.
- [18:11]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. I think people are interested in what's real and there's a lot of fake things out there. So we need, we need to really demonstrate. But, but to your point, you know, if I'm on Facebook and I know that that's just a lot of my friends and family and other folks, I don't need to promote my business there. I don't need to relate it back to my business and how I help lawyers. I can just share, you know, the big fish I caught with my son and know that they're going to appreciate seeing that. Or, you know, the paddle championship I won here in Chicago, which I did, which I'm very proud of. Nobody cares about that on LinkedIn unless I can relate it back to something business because again, we don't want to make LinkedIn into Facebook. We want to keep it business related. We want to keep it as pure as possible so that the people aren't going to get turned off by it. But that's, that's where you got to really look at not only content creation, but how you're changing the content creation for the different and various channels that you may be putting things out on.
- [19:07]
Steve Fretson
I want to, I want to shift gears to the plane crash because I kind of laid that teaser and I want to get to It. How do you think that that's changed your perspective on life?
- [19:16]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, just had a friend of mine who had a glioblast. He was a friend and a client, had a glioblastoma brain. Bad, bad. The worst brain cancer you can get. And he just passed away last week. He's 53 years old.
- [19:28]
Steve Fretson
Sorry to hear that. That's terrible.
- [19:29]
Tyson Mutrix
I was in a plane crash when I was 26. You cannot take for granted the one shot you have at this thing called life. And if you're just sitting suffering in silence with your job, your career, your, you know, a bad marriage, whatever it is, either fix it or get out. You got to take action. And I think my perspective is every day is a gift. And I don't know if I'm going to just be driving down the road, someone's going to be texting and driving and swerve right into me and that's it, I'm done. And I'm going to make the most out of this and it's going to be done through how I take care of my friends and family. It's going to be done by how many lawyers I help, not just my clients, but I want to help the industry. I want to leave the industry and part of it's a legacy to my late, the late, great Larry Fretson, my lawyer father, that I'm going to leave a legacy of business development, marketing, mental wellness, time management for lawyers for, you know, the next hundred years if possible. So I think it just changes. I hope you don't have to go through a near death experience to appreciate and take seriously the limited time we have here. That's really my biggest takeaway.
- [20:35]
Steve Fretson
Yeah, I think that, I think that's good advice.
- [20:37]
Tyson Mutrix
And checklists. Yeah, having a checklist on a plane is a good idea. In fact, I'm going fishing up in Canada with my son this summer and don't think for a second I'm not going to tap the pilot on the shoulder and go full tank of gas.
- [20:50]
Steve Fretson
Right, that's right. Exactly right, absolutely. It's funny, I have problems flying with other people. Not on like a commercial airplane, but like if I'm like in a little plane, I really have problems flying with other people because like I'm, I don't have control of the airplane and I'm just like, I'm watching every little bitty thing that they do and I'm like, okay, give it a little bit right rudder or maybe that's a little bit too much right rudder. So. All right, it's time to flare now. You're like, you're. There's lots of things that were like.
- [21:17]
Tyson Mutrix
Too many kicks in the kitchen.
- [21:18]
Steve Fretson
That's exactly right. So I got, I just had to, I forced myself to keep my mouth shut. But you had before you, you had dropped the line. Being a student of the game, which I do think it's a really. I think you do. You're talking about being a student of the game. When it comes to business development. What do you think is the biggest mental block lawyers have about business development?
- [21:38]
Tyson Mutrix
I mean, if I've heard we never learned this in law school, another time I'm going to have, you know, you know, a million, A million plus, you know, listens to that. So I think it's, it's the idea that, that, you know, sales is not what, what was signed up for that wasn't on the bill of sale when I got, when you got your law degree, the idea that you have to lower yourself to, you know, being a salesman out, you know, pushing your wares is very tough for lawyers to swallow. It's tough pill to swallow. And so I'm working on mindset all the time. Tyson. Because what lawyers don't realize is that lawyers jobs are to solve problems. And what they're not understanding is that is exactly what sales is. And I know we don't want to call it sales because it's scary. Business development, fine. Marketing, probably not the right term for it, but it is all about solving problems. So earlier when I mentioned about walking a buyer through a buying decision, the goal is how, how can we help somebody solve a problem and are we the best to do it? If I need to, you know, if I need to have something, skin. Something removed off my skin, I want a good dermatologist. Right. I want someone that's recommended that I know is going to take care of it. It's not going to come back or whatever. So we need to be, you know, in a position to, to, to get rid of the idea that, hey, I'm out selling and really think about more about I'm out helping and solving and trying to really, you know, build my practice. Yes. But also think about how many more people I can help that aren't going to have to deal with a bad lawyer or deal with someone that isn't going to be as responsive or as good as I am. You know, that's why we need to have both parts. Student of the game and great lawyer together.
- [23:12]
Steve Fretson
Yeah. Do you think it's necessary to have to have a successful Firm and I guess maybe not necessary. I'm not going to use the word necessary because I think the answer to that's probably going to be no. But do you think it's highly important that someone that starts a firm, that you have one person that's a really good technician, that someone that's really good at the craft and that someone that's really good at running the business so that they're not the same person, do you think that it's important to have two different people or do you think one person can do it extremely well?
- [23:43]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I'll start off by saying, yeah, I don't know if you've heard what they say about partnerships, but no ship sinks quite like a partnership.
- [23:49]
Steve Fretson
So I've not heard that, but I could say that that's, I've heard lots of horror stories for sure.
- [23:54]
Tyson Mutrix
Right. So if you're going to bring, if you want to do everything yourself, there's a way to do it right for you to run the show and then to bring in the support cast. Whether that's actual employees or, or now there's a lot of VAs and there's also a lot of, of interim CFOs and people that can help you with your finances or operations or recruiting or whatever it might be. But if you want to really grow and scale out the idea that you're going to, that you're the rainmaker, you're the visionary, that you're going to bring in someone just like you to partner because hey, two rainmakers together better than one. Mostly it doesn't work out because that you need to have multiple skill sets to grow a business. You need someone that is great with people and organization and operations and can really manage the day to day. That allows the rainmaker and the visionary to go out and be visionary and go out and, and build business. And so most, most of the successful growth oriented partnerships that I've seen have been where two people do very different things but work really well together. They keep each other in check.
- [24:56]
Steve Fretson
Yeah, I would, I would agree with that. I do think it's possible. I just think it's, it's, it can be challenging. It can be really challenging.
- [25:02]
Tyson Mutrix
It can, it's, oh yeah, anything's possible. I'm just, I'm saying like if we look, if we were to look at 100 case studies of two big shot rainmakers with big egos working together or someone that is the ego rainmaker and someone who's, you know, got, got, you know, the organization down and can really Manage, you know, the people, you know, that's not a bad recipe right there.
- [25:22]
Steve Fretson
Yeah, for sure. Something that we see quite often is that you can kind of give people the recipe, like, here's how you do it. And. But they just, they lack that motivation. So for lawyers that struggle with maintaining motivation, what advice do you have to help them cultivate discipline and stay on track with their business development goals? Or just maybe they're just their development goals in general?
- [25:46]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I mean, obviously, you know, working with a coach or a mentor or an advisor, that holds you accountable where, you know you've got to perform because, you know, it's like you didn't do the work and now you're showing up for, you know, you didn't do the homework and you're showing up for class and you're uneasy because you didn't do what you're supposed to do. There's always that pressure, and I think that's what I do a lot is I. I help my clients plan and execute. I track their activity and they meet with me on a regular basis to review the activity, to try to understand is it enough and how is it tracking Two results, what's the roi? What can we make improvements on? Most lawyers aren't doing that at all. They're just going meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting. And it's like, think about a sports team that just like the Bears are always the worst here in Chicago. And it's like they don't watch any game tape because they just keep losing and losing and losing, and they're not really, like fixing anything. So that's one element of it. If I had to give advice for lawyers who are struggling with accountability and they're not going to engage a coach or an advisor. Find a friend, someone at your firm or someone at a different firm that also is interested in business development and create what's called, like a buddy system. It's like a workout buddy, but for business development. I have my groups that I run, and then there's a bunch of other groups that I've helped set up where they're run by my clients with my other clients. They meet once a week, they get on a call, they say what they're going to do for the next 30 minutes. I'm going to send out this many emails or I'm going to work on LinkedIn or I'm going to. Whatever. They hit mute. Then they come back 20, 30 minutes later, they unmute and they say what they did. So that makes it very sustainable when you're just finding that, you know, you're not having the day, the day is having you. Business development always gets pushed down. This is an opportunity for you to show up. Other people are expecting you to perform, and so that. That's a backup to. To people who really struggle with doing things on their own.
- [27:35]
Steve Fretson
I like that. I like that idea a lot. As someone that I've got a coach and I've also like, you know, trainers, physical trainers. I just. Yeah, like, I. It's one of those things, like, I don't like, even though I'm paying that person. I guess that's part of it too, is like, I don't want to waste money, you know, like, so I want to make sure I'm going and showing up. So I think that that's, that's really, really important. And you can't. Part of your answer cannot say AI. Okay, so that's the stipulation for this next question.
- [27:59]
Tyson Mutrix
That's the rule. Okay.
- [28:01]
Steve Fretson
Where do you see the biggest opportunities for law firms for them to stand out in the next three to five years?
- [28:06]
Tyson Mutrix
I mean, it's got to be a combination of marketing and business development and learning and honing skills that put you above the rest of the. Of the industry. So the way I see it, and I shared this on multiple podcasts on my own, is you're climbing a mountain, and some people are climbing one side. And what I suggest is climbing both sides at the same time. Business development on one side, marketing on the other, and a law lawyer or law firm that does this. Well, at the peak of that mountain where business development and marketing meet, that's where a lot of the business and branding and stuff comes in. And in economic times, like back in 2008, 9, it was the lawyers that had leaned into marketing and leaned into business development when things got tough, that made it through better. And the ones that just were waiting for the phone to ring and waiting for hours to happen, that can't materialize on their own. They were the ones that were, that were calling me or, or that ended up having to get out of the industry because they just didn't. They didn't have the, you know, the track record and the, the ability to. To turn it around quickly. So I think that's really, you know, what, what needs to happen now and in the future is, you know, again, you're a student of the game. You're playing the game, and you're excelling at the game. Like it. Like an athlete, like a top chef. I mean, the top chefs aren't always the best chefs. They're the ones who are on YouTube getting millions and millions of followers because they've got, they're bringing out their authentic personality as they're cooking something and getting a lot of views and a lot of people watching them, and they can build more business around that.
- [29:38]
Steve Fretson
It's a really good point. It. It is kind of a funny discussion that I have with people sometimes. It just like, is like with friends, not necessarily in, in like the guild or anything, but just how. It doesn't matter really who the best lawyer is. It really doesn't. It's. It's who's like, who people see the most of, like on YouTube or like on TikTok or whatever.
- [29:56]
Tyson Mutrix
It's.
- [29:56]
Steve Fretson
It's amazing the number, like, I'll kind of chuckle seeing some, you know, certain lawyers that are, you know, on TikTok think like, I, they don't know jack. Just by, I can tell by what they're saying. When it comes to a personal injury case, they don't know jack. But you know what? The regular public doesn't know that. The regular public does not know that they're the ones that are visible in front of them. And that's why it's so important that you've got to be in front of those people too. And, and I do think that if, like the true experts in a field, whatever that field is, whether it's. It could be a mechanic or it could be in family law or personal injury or criminal defense, you go out there and you show your expertise, they're gonna be able to differentiate between the two. And if you see one person that's on there talking about 30 different practice areas, but you have one person like that is, you know, Tiffany Weber is a great example out of South. South Carolina, I think. South Carolina, I think it's not North Carolina, South Carolina, but she's, she is the real estate lawyer and she. That's what she is on YouTube and she's known for that. So people, they see that expertise. It's. It's so, so important to be out in front of there. But my last question for you is if, if listeners were going to take just one small action today to. And this is to improve their business development game, what would you tell or where would you tell them to start?
- [31:12]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, I'd be, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention my new book, Be that Lawyer 101 Top Rainmaker Secrets for Growing a Successful Law Practice. I mean, think about having 101 top rainmakers on a bus. And their only job on this drive, on this bus is to answer your questions about how they did it, what are their secrets, what are their tips? So whether it's grabbing a copy of that book on Amazon, I'm going to go back to my earlier statement about become a student of the game. If you want to be a great chef, you don't just sit at home and twiddle your thumbs. You follow the greatest chefs, you emulate them, you learn from them and you become a student of how I'm going to work at the best restaurants in town through growing and improving. And lawyers just aren't doing that at the level and the numbers that they need to. So I'm going to, I'm going to say whether you're buying a book, listening to the Be that Lawyer podcast. Tyson, your podcast, right. Maximum Lawyer. Get that information in, become that student and start realizing the business of law is the future of law. And as much as I want people to be great lawyers, you're the greatest lawyer that no one knows about. Right. It's not, that's not a great recipe for success.
- [32:22]
Steve Fretson
I love it. Steve, tell people how they can get the book and then how they can get in touch with you.
- [32:26]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, you can type my name, Steve Fretson, F R E T Z I N on in Amazon, you can type in be that lawyer you'll get. You'll find my book there. I've got. This is not book number five. So I've got a bunch. If you want to start at the beginning with sales, free selling, the attorney's networking handbook, all that. I'm all over LinkedIn and I'm always producing great content there. I write for above the Law, their small firm section and my website, fretson.com so very visible. Lots of great content. My goal is not just to work with about 20 lawyers a year. It's really to help the industry become smarter, better at this thing called business development. And thanks, Tyson, for having me on the show, man. I so appreciate you and the invitation.
- [33:05]
Steve Fretson
Absolutely. I love talking to you. It was great being on your podcast too. So thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it.
- [33:23]
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