When Your Law Firm Identity Disappears Overnight

Summary

Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer – "When Your Law Firm Identity Disappears Overnight"

Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Mark Carlin
Date: March 17, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode features a candid conversation between host Tyson Mutrux and attorney Mark Carlin, delving into the deeply personal and professional experience of Mark suddenly becoming sole owner of his long-standing family law firm after his father and law partner passed away. The discussion traverses grief, the challenge of leading through loss, transitioning practice areas, adapting to COVID-19, building a new professional identity, and the complexities of modern immigration law. Mark opens up about his journey, the unexpected upheaval, learning resilience, and offers advice for lawyers facing similar crossroads.

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MAIN DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Personal Loss and Its Impact on the Firm

• Mark’s father and law partner passed away in 2017 after a terminal illness, leaving Mark to run Carlin & Carlin alone after 20+ years working together.
• Mark describes putting on a “brave face” while coping privately with grief and the overwhelming responsibility of keeping the firm running.
  • "I tried to put on a brave face because I had clients, I had a firm to run. It was very difficult…It really was a crucible for me." (Mark, 01:46)
• Mark shares an incident where his distraction due to stress led to a car accident (01:46).

2. The Blurring of Professional and Personal Life

• Tyson highlights how personal events bleed into law firm life; Mark reflects on the need to keep going for the sake of clients and staff (03:01–03:26).

3. Surviving the Aftermath and the Unexpected Role of COVID

• Mark credits the COVID-19 pandemic with inadvertently “saving the firm” by slowing business and allowing him time to regroup, grieve, and transition (04:15–05:32).
  • "I'm glad Covid happened... Covid saved the firm, because I'm not sure I could have sustained going forward." (Mark, 04:15)
• The forced office shutdown and shift to cloud-based operations provided much-needed breathing space (05:32–06:04).

4. Practice Area Identity Crisis and Going All-in on Immigration

• Originally a dual-practice firm: Mark handled PI/civil litigation, his father focused on immigration. After his father's passing, Mark had to quickly learn immigration law while wrapping up PI cases.
• Marketing became muddled with clients unsure about the firm’s specialty. Eventually, Mark strategically chose to transition the firm to solely specialize in immigration (08:54–09:34).
  • "About a year and a half ago, I made the decision to go all in on immigration because LA is such a big market... people would be very confused as to what we did." (Mark, 08:54)

5. The Decision to Drop PI and Its Personal Effects

• Mark is candid about missing some aspects of PI but appreciates the greater systemization, predictability, and reduced personal risk in immigration practice.
  • "It's much easier for me to scale, systematize, and manage if it's immigration." (Mark, 11:04)
• Noticed health/wellbeing improvements after stepping back from litigation (11:22–11:37).
• Retains a stream of "mailbox money" through referral arrangements for PI cases (13:02–13:12).

6. Systemizing and Scaling Immigration Practice

• Immigration is a good niche for systematizing due to its defined application processes and forms, despite frequent legal/policy changes (13:49–14:54).
• Mark has opened a rapidly growing satellite office in Las Vegas due to a significant client base shift, leveraging the nationwide scope of immigration law (21:40–24:26).
  • "As an immigration attorney, I'm barred in California, but I can practice immigration law in all 50 states... I don't have to be a member of the Nevada Bar." (Mark, 22:44)

7. Navigating Regulatory & Political Volatility

• Immigration law is highly sensitive to changing political administrations, requiring extreme agility and ongoing learning (18:05–19:33).
• The firm must “oil up” old skillsets as shifting enforcement priorities bring sudden increases in removal/deportation work (20:03–20:50).
  • "Every day I wake up, there's something new... we get policy changes by Twitter or by... social media." (Mark, 18:08)

8. Succession, Grief, and Staff Transitions

• The succession after Mark’s father’s death was not formally planned, causing turbulence in staffing and leadership (47:34–49:41).
  • "My dad didn’t... he just couldn’t come to grips that his time was coming." (Mark, 47:36)
• Mark emphasizes the need for support, vulnerability, and seeking help in challenging leadership transitions.

9. Family Law Legacies and Stepping Out of the Shadow

• Mark discusses what it’s like to follow in a legendary parent’s footsteps and how he navigated building his own reputation (16:09–17:10).
• Experiences pride, not pressure, from his family’s legacy: "What I feel now is really just pride and a heartfelt sense that he made a big difference in many people's lives." (Mark, 16:24)

10. The Potential and Risks of AI in Law Practice

• Both Tyson and Mark discuss how AI has streamlined parts of case preparation but also express concerns about job losses, the future of associate work, and the existential impact on law firms (36:02–57:17).
  • "I've never been so excited and also worried about something as AI." (Mark, 54:10)
  • Examples: using AI for case summaries, preparing for mediations, organizing large swathes of client documentation, and envisioning future tools for tracking judge/officer trends (36:15–41:18).
• Mark predicts significant contraction in transactional practice areas due to AI, but continuing need for personal advocacy and litigation (56:05–56:52).

11. Life, Parenting, and Managing Firm Ownership

• Mark reflects on balancing parenthood, personal ambition, and business demands—and the impossibility of being “just an employee” after running a firm (49:41–53:13).
• Advice to lawyers: perseverance through challenge, seeking mentorship, making deep connections with peers (61:49–62:56).

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• "It’s amazing the strength you find when you have to find it."
  — Mark Carlin, discussing leadership after his father’s death (01:46)

• "Covid saved the firm... it forced me to finally stop, assess, and get support."
  — Mark Carlin (04:15, 07:54)

• "When people started recognizing me as the immigration attorney... that's when I knew we’re going to be okay."
  — Mark Carlin (08:11)

• "Both practice areas are gratifying... this is just a lot easier to manage and predict where we’re headed."
  — Mark Carlin (15:52)

• "About a year and a half ago, I made the decision to go all in on immigration... potential clients would be confused as to what we did. Unless it was a client referral, our digital marketing wasn't really effective."
  — Mark Carlin (08:54)

• "My dad didn’t [create a succession plan]... he just couldn’t come to grips that his time was coming. It’s not something I can stay at arm's length and discuss."
  — Mark Carlin (47:36)

• "Joining the Guild [and] the association have been a great help to me."
  — Mark Carlin (07:54)

• "If you don't get paid [on a PI case], it's a horrible... really bad feeling."
  — Mark Carlin (13:58)

• "It's frustrating for clients because sometimes one client's case will take three months... others, 18 months. Sometimes there’s no rhyme or reason."
  — Mark Carlin (44:37)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• [01:46] – Coping with loss and running the firm after his father’s death
• [04:15] – COVID’s “saving grace”: how the pandemic gave Mark time to regroup
• [08:11] – Achieving new recognition as the firm’s immigration expert
• [08:54] – Challenges marketing a dual-practice firm; why he chose immigration
• [13:02] – “Mailbox money” (PI referral system) and simplifying the business
• [16:24] – Dealing with legacy and stepping out of a parent’s shadow
• [18:08] – Navigating constant change with different administrations in immigration law
• [21:40] – Opening and scaling the satellite office in Las Vegas
• [36:02–41:18] – Use of AI in law: experiences, anxieties, and speculation
• [47:34–49:41] – The absence of a succession plan and its consequences
• [61:49–62:56] – Advice for lawyers starting their own practice

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ADDITIONAL INSIGHTS

• Staff Retention: Initial turmoil after the founder’s passing, eventual stabilization as Mark shaped the firm to his vision (46:07–49:41).
• Client Communication: Systematized updates and staff empathy are crucial in long, unpredictable cases (43:27–44:20).
• Future of the Legal Industry: Mark foresees increasing consolidation, nationalization of law firm brands, and possible venture/private equity in immigration law’s future due to its nationwide rules (26:29–28:24).
• AI’s Impact: AI has not yet replaced the “human touch” but it has transformed repetitive, analytical work; Mark and Tyson predict continued rapid evolution with both benefits and risks.

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ADVICE FOR LAWYERS AND FIRM OWNERS

• Seek non-transactional networks for advice and mutual support ("make your circle as big as possible" – 62:28).
• Don’t muscle through grief or transition alone—get help and mentorship early (46:59–47:17).
• Systemize and delegate as much as possible to free up time for firm leadership and personal life.
• Be nimble and embrace challenges rather than fear change—especially in unpredictable fields.
• Under-promise and over-deliver in client communications, especially in high-uncertainty practices.

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FINAL WORDS

Through vulnerability and practical reflection, Mark Carlin’s story serves as a roadmap for lawyers facing upheaval—in life, leadership, or practice. This episode is a must-listen for anyone managing the intersection of personal loss, evolving law firm identity, and the practical realities of running a modern, agile practice.

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Contact:

• Carlin & Carlin, Abogados Carlin
• Find Mark at California Bar directory (Carlin with a K; Mark with a C)
• Instagram/Facebook

Advice to New Lawyers:
"Join groups, seek mentorship, make real connections, and don’t try to reinvent the wheel." (61:49–62:56)

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Tyson Mutrix]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Tyson Mutrix]

this

[Mark Carlin]

is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So Mark, your dad, he passed away in 2017. That's right. He was your law partner. You all were, I'm assuming, pretty close.

[Mark Carlin]

Very close.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I wonder if I can pry enough to maybe get like, what was it like behind the scenes? Not really like the public version but like what was like the private version like for you?

[Mark Carlin]

It was, you know, I tried to put on a brave face because I had clients I had affirmed her on. It was very difficult. He had terminal cancer. So we both knew what was going to happen and he, you know, he had his wits about him until the very, very end. So his last year, all of 2017, I pretty much ran the, I ran the firm by myself because he was sick at home and I'm sure it came out to the public how I'm sure I was short tempered a couple times or lost concentration. I got in a huge car accident about four or five months before he died, which was completely my fault because I was thinking I would just had visited him at his house and I was thinking about him and distracted and luckily I walked away without a scratch. My car was totaled but I luckily walked away. So it was extremely difficult. And I always tell my wife, I got through that year 2017, I can get through anything. It really was crucible for me. And it's amazing the strength you find when you have to find it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How long had the two of you worked together?

[Mark Carlin]

About that time over? I'd say about 20, 23 years. It's been quite a while. Since the mid-90s.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. I don't think we talk enough about, like, the other things that kind of bleed into our firms, where we want to stay focused on the firms and everything. Sure. There's these other parts of our worlds that they all bleeded together. Right, right. And, I mean, it had to been extremely hard to lose him, but then you have to still run the firm. So what was it like being in the office knowing that you still had to do all of that?

[Mark Carlin]

You know, in a way, it was a blessing because it kept me busy, but, you know, had to answer questions about his health all the time. I had to let everybody know how he was doing. But, you know, he's still with me today. In fact, I was on a immigration court hearing, remote hearing yesterday, and the judge knew my dad really well and mentioned it. And one lawyer who was also on Zoom said, are you. Are you related to Philip Carlin? I go, yes, I am. So not only is it the firm Carlin and Carlin, but he's with me every day because not only do I see his name on old cases, but people constantly ask, constantly ask me about him. But it was very, very difficult, and I'm not going to sugarcoat it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Was there any doubt ever that maybe you just couldn't. You couldn't run the firm?

[Mark Carlin]

I was thinking about that as I was coming in this morning, and my response that is, I'm glad Covid happened. Which sounds crazy, but Covid saved the firm, because I'm not sure I could have sustained going forward. We had two. Some background. We had two distinct practice areas. My dad was an immigration specialist. I generally did civil litigation and PI we were both very successful. But it was. It was the same firm at two different practice areas. So after he passed away, I'm now having to learn immigration, become up to speed. And it's, as you know, as a personal injury attorney has nothing to do with personal injury. Immigration. They're completely. It is. It is oil and water. And Covid caused, you know, stopped everything. Because I'm not sure I could have sustained going forward. I don't know what would have happened. I. If something would have happened to me or the firm would have dissolved. I'm not sure, but it was. It was. I couldn't sustain managing both firms. And really not grieving. I didn't have time to grieve. I had to move forward. We have clients, we have a business. We had six or seven employees. All had to go forward.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's. That is. I guess it was fortuitous timing in a way, because you, you could sort of take a breath, catch up.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah. I mean, of course, at the time, as we all were, who knew what was going to happen? I remember the day we shut down, we got a message from our landlord saying, you know, we're shutting down. We're not sure when you'll be back in the bill, when you'll be allowed back in the building. And I remember calling my wife frantically and then scooping up, like, all the firm checkbooks and financial records because I wasn't sure when I would come back to the office. You know, fortunately, all our work was in the cloud, but who knew what was going to happen?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it's almost like leaving a burning building in a way, Right?

[Mark Carlin]

I mean, I don't know how it was for you guys, but that's, that's was the feeling is just, we don't know what's going to happen.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It was interesting because we have the two offices and you've got. St. Louis treated things way differently than Columbia. Like Columbia, things pretty much stayed open for the most part. St. Louis didn't. Everything closed down. And so you were. It was really interesting for me when I would travel back and forth. It was like I was entering one world after I was leaving another.

[Mark Carlin]

Interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So that was definitely different for me.

[Mark Carlin]

Interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I thought, I thought Covid was beneficial for us because we were able to put our foot on the gas. When we saw everyone else pulling their money out of LSA is Google Ads and all that, we were like, okay, let's. Let's put the pedal down.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So that was something that I thought was actually pretty beneficial for us.

[Mark Carlin]

We've talked about that before. But it forced me to kind of finally stop, assess what's going on. Got involved with the Guild now, the association. I remember, I think I joined right after Covid. I remember being on a. We did the Friday morning or Monday morning calls, right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Six o' clock in the morning. And my wife said, what are you doing? I said, oh, I've got this remote call with these attorneys. And then I started listening to the podcast during COVID because I had a lot of time to go walk around, exercise, things like that. So introduced me to you. Introduced me to, you know, Jim Brian Mittman, who remains a great friend of mine.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Did you know Brian before I.

[Mark Carlin]

No. Brian and I only met on the. The accountability calls.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. I thought you'll two. I thought the two of you knew each other for years.

[Mark Carlin]

Well, you know, it's like this thing called Jewish geography. Right. So we obviously. My daughter was going to Brandeis and he knew she knew people that lived in his neighborhood, he knew people that lived in California and this kind of mutual connection to stuff. So we actually first met in person at the first Max Law Convention post Covid in St. Louis.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's incredible because we.

[Mark Carlin]

Because we. And we talk a lot. So. No, but that allowed me to Covid allowed me to stop and get support. And, you know, the guild and the association have been great help to me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

When did you feel like you kind of got over the hump? You're like, okay, I can do this. This is going to be okay.

[Mark Carlin]

It wasn't until, I'd say, two or three years after Covid and we made some major changes in personality office. And you and I had talked about this previously, and when people started recognizing me as like the immigration attorney and not Mark does the personal injury in the office, that's when I knew. I could see the light. I could see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I knew we're going to be okay because at least I understand immigration law. I'm practicing it. I've been successful at it. And now people come to me as the immigration attorney. And that was probably two, three years ago when I finally felt, okay, we're going to make it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What was it like marketing the two types of practice areas?

[Mark Carlin]

That was very interesting and it was not clean. And that's why I made a decision about a year and a half ago to go all in on immigration because LA is such a big market and you really can't compete with your sweet James and your Morgan and Morgans and all the other ones. And then people would say, oh, I see your personal injury, but I see your firm practices immigration. So potential clients would be very confused as to what we did. And unless it was a client referral, our digital marketing wasn't really effective because we had two different practice areas. So that's when I decided to go all in about a year and a half ago on immigration.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I think that a lot of people hearing that would think. Because, you know, everyone. I think, I think people oversimplify PI. They think I'll send a demand letter and I'll make a bunch of money. And I, I laugh whenever I hear that. Right. You. And so most People are probably gonna be like, he chose immigration over PI. And I completely get it because I'm guessing it's easier to systemize everything.

[Podcast Host]

So give.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Tell me about your mindset in making that decision.

[Mark Carlin]

Come back to the association again. I was here at a mastermind about a year ago in Scottsdale, and Chris Nicholasian and Kevin Chaney were in my group, and I was having this dilemma. Like, I really enjoy PI, but, you know, we're very successful in immigration. We opened this office in Las Vegas. It's doing great. And they looked at me and said, what are you doing? I understand you like PI, but you can scale immigration, you can systematize it, you can manage it better. Because, you know, PI, if you get into a trial, even if you're not the lead attorney, it's. It's all consuming.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Absolutely.

[Mark Carlin]

There's no, oh, let me get let. You know, let me go check something else, you know, at four o'. Clock. Let me get back to you. Let me talk to this client. It's all consuming. So it wasn't easy, but I figured I'm older now, you know, if I don't take another deposition, I'll be fine. If I don't argue another motion, I'll be fine. I mean, I'm doing motions now in immigration court, so it's a little similar. But it was. I could see the reward to me for a different type of law, I would say go more towards management than dealing with day to day.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

So it's much easier for me to scale, systematize, and manage if it's immigration.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, I was sitting in court, I don't know, a few weeks ago, and I was kind of looking around and I. You. You can see who the litigation attorneys are. They're wearing it. And I wonder if it's affected your health in a good way, kind of giving up the litigation.

[Mark Carlin]

I had my annual physical last week, and the doctor was a little, you know, getting older and. And have a family history of certain diseases. My blood tests and all my other markers were, I'd say 10 to 20% better.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Wow.

[Mark Carlin]

Than they were the year before.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Nice. Congrats.

[Mark Carlin]

Is it giving up PI or is it just doing immigration? Maybe it's lifestyle change, everything else, but it's definitely affected me because, you know, I still have a couple of PI cases. I'm closing down. And they do, they do take a lot of time inside your head.

[Tyson Mutrix]

They do.

[Mark Carlin]

When you're trying to figure out, you know, I've got a mediation coming up on one. I had A mediation last week. You know, they're all consuming, so I'm happy with my decision.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you ever get the itch where you see, oh, such and such got a million dollars? Like, do you ever get the itch?

[Mark Carlin]

You're reading my mind.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

You know. You know, it's tough if you see. Even if someone calls you and says, I want to refer somebody to you, this is a great case.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

I've had to. Now I have a great referral source for my PI cases, a person that I trust and is very generous for the referral fees, which in California are completely approved if the client signs off on it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Wow.

[Mark Carlin]

But, yes, when I do see big verdicts or, you know, I. I was a PI lawyer for almost 30 years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So it is. It is tough to give it up, but I'm happy with my decision.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I think it's interesting in. In Colorado, they don't have referral fees, which, like, that's something Kevin Chaney's been talking about that he's very. He's very tied into, like, trying to get things changed in Colorado. In Missouri, we can. We can definitely do referral fees and all that, which is. Which is kind of nice. But it does allow you to. Since you have a good referral partner, that's good for you because you have this other source of business. Correct. Where you're not having to do all the work. That's kind of nice.

[Mark Carlin]

What did Brian call it? Mailbox money.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Mailbox money, Right. Mailbox money, yeah. And you have to be able to trust the lawyer, though.

[Mark Carlin]

Right. And I do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

And. But I didn't really refer many cases out because I wanted to do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

You know, I wanted to be in control and take it and do it my way and. And. And then just can't do it, you know?

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so I. I kind of visualize PI. You have this. You really need a big machine to do it. There's a lot to it, and I wonder how much has it simplified the practice? Not. I'm not talking about just, like, PI versus immigration. I'm talking about like. Just like, having to do all the work in PI versus all the work in immigration.

[Mark Carlin]

Well, it's. You know, immigration only has so many different types of applications, so again, you can systemize it easier. It's also. There's not a lot of money coming out of my pocket for immigration. It's a fee for service. So that's also a different change.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

So, yes. You know, not that immigration's easy, especially under the current Administration, it's very challenging. But you. It's much more predictable.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

And, you know, part of the thrill of PI is that it is a gamble. You don't. It is a little bit of a gamble. I mean, you obviously make a calculated decision, but you're putting your time and your money into something that you may not get paid completely, but when you do, it's a great feeling. And when you lose, it's a horrible. It's a really bad feeling.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a really. I saw a guy, it was early in my career, they. These two solos that they worked on these cases together, and neither. Neither one of them were like dedicated PI attorneys. One was like a trust attorney that did some PI stuff on the side. The other guy was a workers compensation attorney that did some PI stuff on the side. They had two cases back to back where they dumped hundreds of thousands of dollars. 00. But, I mean, it put both of them almost underneath.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah. No, I don't know how that's. That's. That's way too tough.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a massive thing to absorb from a system standpoint. What is it. How is it when it comes to immigration versus PI? Is that. Is that something. I'm assuming it's easier to sort of.

[Mark Carlin]

Well, you know, the way the case management systems are now, it's. It's a lot easier because most immigration cases have a relatively predictable lifespan, if you would. You know, there's always hiccups in something, but so it's easy. It's a lot easier for me to budget also out my time or allocate resources.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

You can see. Okay. Certain cases are at this stage. We need to do that. Certain cases are at that stage. You know, PI, you don't know. You get dropped by a big motion. You get. You get. All of a sudden, they find some witnesses, that's. They're going to take a deposition. I mean, it's just a lot.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's a good point. I mean, because like you, it's. It's guaranteed money versus, like, the. The risk, which is. That's kind of.

[Mark Carlin]

It's just different. It's just. I was ready at my stage of my career to do this.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So that's. I mean, that's the. I just. It was. It was time. And my dad had built up so much goodwill and, you know, reputation is great, especially on the. On both sides. But my dad, as I said, people ask me now he's been gone eight years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Ask me weekly. People ask me about, you know, how much my dad meant to them, how he helped them. So both practice areas are gratifying. This is just a lot. Right. A lot easier to manage and predict where we're headed.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so I've always had this question. I don't think I've ever asked it to anyone that's in your shoes.

[Mark Carlin]

Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I've always wondered that lawyers that have their. Their parent was a lawyer, especially a successful lawyer, almost like what it's like to be. Feel like. It's like, do you ever feel like you're in their shadow? And how. And how do you. How do you make sure you're not in their shadow?

[Mark Carlin]

You know, it's interesting because I didn't really practice immigration law for most of the time that I was with them. I didn't. I didn't feel. I felt like I had an advantage because I grew up with a father who is an attorney. So this world was known to me. And, you know, my sister's an attorney. My wife's an attorney. My brother's an attorney. My son just passed the bar down in San Diego. I have a niece in law school. I'm probably missing somebody. I have an aunt who's an attorney. So we came from a family of attorneys, so I felt supported, but I didn't really feel in his shadow because we were doing different areas of the law. And what I feel now is really just a pride and just, you know, a really heartfelt sense that he did make a big difference in many people's lives. And people, like I said, people to this day, once a week ask me about him.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's really cool.

[Mark Carlin]

It's very sweet. I mean, it's sad because, you know, obviously have to think back that he's gone and I wish you were here now. I'd love to talk to him about a lot of things that have happened with the firm. I mean, Covid would have been really interesting with him.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, I bet.

[Mark Carlin]

Right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

It would have really.

[Mark Carlin]

I don't know. It would have been, but he's not. So that's. That's what I miss.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. All right. So you mentioned the current administration, and I. And I wonder because, I mean, now you've. You've worked through this administration, Biden, Obama, and you weren't doing immigration, I don't think. Whenever Obama was an officer, I mean,

[Mark Carlin]

I was helping my dad on a couple things, but not really, you know, and then he got sick during Trump 1.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Gotcha.

[Mark Carlin]

So that's. I. I experienced Trump, Biden, Trump. That's really what I. When I was leading the Immigration practice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I'm a firm believer in being able to, to control only the things you can control and worry about only the things you can control. How do you do that? Because the way that each administration handles immigration is completely, is wildly different.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So how do you, how do you stay in your lane?

[Mark Carlin]

It's not easy. And, and the hardest part is trying to explain to clients why something two years ago was this way and now it's 180 degrees this way.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

Or why something that was available then is no longer available. So you really have to adjust. I mean, and as I say to my clients, I said every day I wake up, there's something new. And this is a common refrain against the. In the immigration bar. We just, we're learning it now. And how do we get, we get policy changes by Twitter or by, you know, something on, you know, social media. So it's been much more radical, the changes and much quicker during Trump 2 than Trump won. But the law is the law, the rules are the rules. And so you try to just apply both the rules and the law as best you can and, you know, try to protect your clients.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you found a way to like systemize the chaos in a way?

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, because it's still form, it's still, it's still an administrative process. The chaos is coming where we've actually now have. I filed last week my first habeas.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

In federal court in San Diego to get someone out of custody. I thought they were wrongly detained and they were released. So that is kind of the chaos factor is people getting detained. Yeah, that in, in prior years, even under Trump 1, if they got detained, they'd be let out on bond probably pretty quickly and a case would take a lot longer. Now we're getting, you know, people getting picked up at 711 parking lots or grocery stores. That didn't happen on Trump 1.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What I find interesting about immigration in general is because immigration's not just immigration. You have people that do different carve outs. They have different niches within immigration. So here's what I find really interesting. Let's say you are a deportation heavy immigration practice under Biden. Not good for you at all.

[Mark Carlin]

Correct.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So you have to find a different way of making money whenever you get to Trump and Obama. Deportation heavy both.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

But the other stuff is harder to process. So how do you balance that part of it?

[Mark Carlin]

Really good question. You know, during Biden we really, we really didn't wind down, but really, you know, we didn't emphasize deportation or removal defense. What we call it because it wasn't there. I mean, I had the training because I did do it under Trump one when I took over from my dad. But we always had a backbone of doing family based immigration. So I was able to ramp up and most of the lawyers that I work with and I have a couple that I work, you know, as contract attorneys, they from Trump 1 and before they were used to immigration court. So we had to, we had to, you know, put some, you know, oil like the Tin Man. We had to oil ourselves up, get, you know, get the joints working again.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

And get those reflexes. But I mean the amount of time in the last year that I spent an immigration court compared to Biden's last year was probably 50 to 60% more.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh my gosh.

[Mark Carlin]

The good news is again, thanks to Covid and hopefully they'll keep this way. We do most of our appearances remotely. That's, that's, it's a real game changer. When I first started doing this, I would have to physically because my dad now is getting sick and he can't go to court. I'd have to physically go to downtown LA or Orange county to immigration court. Like just like. Sure, like a normal civil court. And now most of it is done remotely. So, you know, I have a practice now office in Las Vegas. And I've appeared. Judges know me quite well through Zoom in Las Vegas. Cause I can do two or three hearings from my desk or another attorney can do them on their desk.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So talk about the Vegas edition because I think that that's really cool. That's something that you talked about in the hot seat the last time I talked to you. And I don't, I don't remember whenever we had dinner in New York, if we talked about it. It was really loud in there.

[Mark Carlin]

But we probably talked about it. But about my head paralegal, although she's from Los Angeles, a lot of her family lives in Las Vegas. And I've gone there for conventions and other things. I grew up in Southern California, so it's close by. But what I noticed was a lot of our clients or their family members were moving from Southern California to Las Vegas. Just kind of notice migration because of job availability, cost of housing. And they would say, do you know anybody? Do you know any immigration attorneys in Las Vegas? I really didn't. So just by happenstance, I got to know two or three attorneys in Vegas. I worked on a couple of civil cases there that were federal. It was like a federal malpractice case against the An Air Force Hospital. So. And I would ask who obviously trace, like, is there anybody immigration wise? And no, nobody knew anybody. And my, my head paralegal's family, nobody knew anybody. And especially for the Spanish speaking community, which is a large part of our client base. So about two years ago I said, well, let's just open a little satellite office and see what happens. Because as an immigration attorney, I'm barred in California, but I can practice immigration law in all 50 states. It's kind of unique. I think it's. Social Security is the same way.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Mark Carlin]

So I don't have to be a member of the Nevada Bar. There's a lot of immigration lawyers in California who aren't members of the California bar. It's interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I didn't know that.

[Mark Carlin]

I didn't know that until, remember asking my dad like, well, wait, he's a member of the Washington D.C. bar? How, how can he practice immigration law?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So, so that's one benefit is I don't have to be licensed there. Although I am scheduled to take the Nevada Bar in July just to prove that I can do it. And I think it'd be a good benefit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

The whole team's counting on you, man. We got you.

[Mark Carlin]

No pressure. Right. Anyway, back to. So we started and then started kind of like a small Facebook campaign, a social media campaign and word of mouth. Las Vegas is a very compact town. Even though it's 2 million people in the metropolitan area, it's small. And so word got out, our social media campaign got out and our business has grown tremendously in Las Vegas where it's a huge percentage of our business. And I'm there probably three, four times a month.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Really.

[Mark Carlin]

I got to know the streets, I know where to go. And, and you know, luckily my wife and I are empty nesters, so I have the time to do it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

If my kids were at home, I'm not sure I would have done it. So it takes a lot of time

[Tyson Mutrix]

away, I bet, because that's, I mean, that is a lot of travel. It's a quick flight though, right?

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, it's 45 minutes. I live 15 minutes from the airport. You know, as long as they keep having pre check, you know, which we have, it's easy.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

But it's still, you know, it's still. And we're really busy there and you know, so that's how it came about. It came about as like, let's, let's experiment. Because just anecdotally there didn't seem to be much immigration that was geared to The Spanish speaking community. But we in Las Vegas have clients from all nationalities, all languages, everybody.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you think you could take what you're doing currently. Right. Document the process and then apply it to other cities that may be similar to Vegas?

[Mark Carlin]

If I had. I think if I had a. Yes, but if I had a partner or somebody that I could really trust in those cities.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Cause it's still tough to manage time difference and everything else. And you know, there's nothing like being in person and seeing the operation. So, you know, today I'm gone, but my staff is doing things that's fine a day or two, but. But yes, I'd like to open. Eventually we make. Maybe could open other offices, but I think it would be with a partnership with somebody else.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you have a staff in the Vegas office?

[Mark Carlin]

I have people that help me there.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

But, but that's one thing. The challenges for 26 is getting a more permanent staff. Because I, I did not anticipate that we would grow to the extent we've grown in Las Vegas.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I mean that's a good problem to have.

[Mark Carlin]

It's a real good problem. I'm not complaining.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Have you thought about how you would, how you would manage that? How what it would look like that

[Mark Carlin]

is a work in progress. Perhaps an associate will join me in Las Vegas. Might have his own book of business. But kind of combine our practices. That's realistically the way it is.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You'd almost see like some sort of office manager, someone that actually manages the physical, physical office itself.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah. And somebody you can trust and you know, verify everything. And it's, it's tricky.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Here's, here's an interesting idea. So I didn't know that this was the name of the term, but do you know what, do you know what an MSO is?

[Mark Carlin]

I have no idea.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. So whenever you did PI, you know how like sometimes you'll have these, these medical providers where you can go through them for like a, a Cairo. AN ORTH When MRI. So MSOs. And so it's managed managed services organizations. So that apparently Chad Burton, that's something that they're doing with modern law. And it would be kind of an interesting thing for your setup where you've got this MSO that sort of manages the operations. But the legal fulfillment's may be done by either that associate that you have there or someone else. That was kind of interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

Oh, it is interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

That's, that's the wave of the future.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Consolidation and you know, the nationalization of all These practices.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you think that's actually going to happen? Because I've been hearing about that for 15 years and I've only recently seen some of it starting to happen.

[Mark Carlin]

Listening to other podcasts and anecdotally, I think it'll happen in. If you have a practice that generates or a firm that generates X amount of money, you might be a good target for at least consolidation. I don't know about venture capital or private equity, but I think I know like for example, Sweet James, the PI attorney from Start in Southern California.

[Tyson Mutrix]

He's.

[Mark Carlin]

He's big in Las Vegas. He's big here in Arizona. I was in Atlanta about six months ago. And there's a Sweet James aboard.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So I think he's consolidated and that might be the wave of the future. I haven't seen it yet in immigration, but, you know, it seems to be the way things are going.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Maybe Carlin and Carlin.

[Mark Carlin]

Maybe the Morgan and Morgan of immigration.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It could be. It is kind of interesting watching Morgan and Morgan on one side of the country sorting, starting to spread west and Sweet James starting on the western, western side, coming across and what the clash is going to look like in the middle. Interesting because it's going to happen. I mean they're going to clash with each other. And I do think that Sweet James is on the east coast. Just the, the. It's interesting watching the map sort of spread. And part of that I think is Sweet James, the way that not Sweet James, Morgan and Morgan, they got, I mean, terraform gutted them in Florida. So they had to find other ways.

[Mark Carlin]

That's what it was. Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Other ways of making money.

[Mark Carlin]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's. But it's also interesting, I've noticed with Sweet James, they're going in and they're buying like the firms of like some influencer, legal influencers. And then I did kind of notice that. And I wonder, I would love to have their coo. We had their COO on a year or two.

[Mark Carlin]

I remember that. I remember that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'd love to have them back on. Maybe I'll have them back on. Just to talk about like more the strategy. If they'll talk about a little bit.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, if you will.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

I think that's. Obviously they come in, they market heavy, but you're right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

You do a lot of social influencing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You know, immigration is ripe for something like that because it is so form driven form for a lot of things.

[Mark Carlin]

And it's nationwide. It's the same rules in Missouri as it is in California as it is in Nevada. So that's the benefit. There's no, there's no, I mean, you know the circuits. If you, if you get into more complex areas of law, there might be a difference in the circuits.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

You know, the fifth Circuit versus a ninth Circuit. But generally it's, it's all the same

[Tyson Mutrix]

because it is, it is comes down to Social Security, which is, I think it's too similar to PI.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think some of the VA benefits you could do.

[Mark Carlin]

I think so. I think you can do that as well.

[Tyson Mutrix]

A little bit. There's the vaccine court, which there are some attorneys that do that. That's all in D.C. though.

[Mark Carlin]

Right? Right, exactly.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then, then you have immigration. How do you deal with it does seem like there's a lot of, there are a lot of immigration attorneys. Sure. That it's almost like it's a, a part of their practice. It's not their primary niche.

[Mark Carlin]

Right. And that's what we found in Nevada. In California, not as much because it's such obviously a giant immigrant population. So most immigration firms there specialize it. But we've seen in Nevada it's almost, it's like the lost leader to bring in PI cases. So that's one reason I think we were able to be successful is that we were dedicated to immigration. But there were a lot of firms who did PI criminal immigration, and they're still in California. But I can tell you as one who, somebody who ran a two practice, you know, two practice law firm. It's not easy, especially when they don't overlap. Now the demographics of your clientele may maybe have something in common, but those are totally, you know, three very different areas of law. You know, terminal PI and immigration.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, completely. I wonder if you could, let's say you did show, choose to take your same model and apply to other cities. Could you just do some of the, I, I, I don't know, other, another way of putting it, other than like some of the more form driven parts of the, some of those niches where you don't have to appear in court. Is that something you could do?

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, we could, but it depends on who's in the administration, right?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So then where's the need? The need now is we're getting, you know, people getting detained or, or you know, you know, people that you wouldn't, wouldn't have never thought been, they don't have criminal records, they, they haven't done anything wrong other than here. They're in the country without authorization or they've overstayed. So as long as Things stay remote with immigration court. As long as those appearances are permitted, I think we'll be okay. But yes, you could, but you'd be totally turning down a big part of the market.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

If you did that in today's climate, who knows what's going to happen in two, three years from now? Who knows what's going to happen after the midterms? We don't.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so this is more of a legal question. I'm very curious about this. Are you? Let's say you are, because there's no path to citizenship if you are here illegally, right?

[Mark Carlin]

Not generally. I mean, there are ways through to get a green card. So that's not true. If you through marriage or through family, you can. There are ways to get a green card, which is permanent residency. And after three years, if you're married to US Citizen. So there are ways around it. What we see a lot of is, let's say someone comes here, they're undocumented, then they have US Citizen kids. There really is no pathway for those children who are now, you know, 26, 27 years old, U.S. citizen adults who are born here. There really is, there's very limited pathways to help their parents.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so here then, this is my question. Cause I've always just wondered. This is more of a curiosity thing. And it, it's. Wouldn't it just make more sense for them to leave the country or pretend they're in another country? And you wouldn't. I'm. This is sort of like, this is an advice you tell your clients, of course, but at least pretend like you're outside the country and then apply to become, get a green card or a visa or whatever it is outside the country. Wouldn't that be, wouldn't it be as cleaner for them?

[Mark Carlin]

There are, first of all, penalties if you've been here for a certain amount of time without authorization, you leave as soon as you cross out of the US Big penalties, including time bars and things.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting. Okay, that's, that's, that answers my question.

[Mark Carlin]

Okay, that's your question. Plus the government knows everything. So you can't say, well, I'm living here in Phoenix, although I'm using an address down in Mexico. Is my. They know everything.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So they know that they're here. You can't just leave, pretend like you were never there.

[Mark Carlin]

Right, right, right. And I've had, I've had clients say that ask or potential clients say, well, let's just say I leave, I go back to my home country. I don't tell them I was here for 10, 15 years. I said, you know what they're going to find out. And when they find out, it's not going to be good. So you can do that. Not with my help, but, you know, because it makes sense. Like I had never was caught. No one noticed. I've never had any interaction with the police or immigration, I'm saying, but, you know, and you have a footprint here. If you've lived here for a certain amount of time, they know you're here and they'll find out.

[Tyson Mutrix]

See, this is, this is how, how little I think the average person knows about, right?

[Mark Carlin]

So it's not that easy because again, really harsh penalties apply, especially if you've been in the US about authorization for more than one year and you leave.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

It triggers a lot of bad things that are going to prohibit you from coming right back.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's going to be kind of tough whenever, let's say you've got like that worst case scenario where like there's no real pathway.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I guess someone could pay you to help usher them through this process, knowing that the outcome's not going to be fantastic. Because what is that like for you? Because that's going to be tough.

[Mark Carlin]

Well, we turn down people every day who, who contacts us and say, well, we're sorry, you just don't have any relief and we don't want to, we're going to be, we're going to act ethically and not, you know, have you fill out an application so maybe you can get a work permit for four or five years, which a lot of attorneys did, especially back in the old days when it was, was things weren't so digitized. We turned down people every day. We just, we'd say, look, you just, we don't see a pathway for you for any help. Yeah, now we do. You know, obviously people are, if they're in custody, then we, we use all available resources to try to help them. You know, even if we know that the odds are slim that at the end of the day they'll get something. But, you know, like, it's much like a criminal defendant, much like a criminal attorney. You are going to use everything within, you know, within the law to help your client.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you like change?

[Mark Carlin]

I can't say that I, I don't, can't say that I do because I think I would have changed this a lot sooner than I did. But it's exciting at this stage of my career change. You know, my wife asked me or I explained, like, why do you know, why Las Vegas? Because you know, I really wanted to do something different. Wasn't. I was bored. It was just that I've done this for a long time and it just, it was a challenge.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So I like challenges. I don't know about change, but a challenge. Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I like the reframing. I think the reframing is, it's, that's, that's a really. I trick myself sometimes by reframing things. Like, I like, I like the struggle part of things, you know, like, because

[Mark Carlin]

it's easy to look at something like, oh, a challenge. You know, we're lawyers, we're used to challenges.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Absolutely.

[Mark Carlin]

If you say change, you automatically kind of. You kind of freeze up and think about all your mind goes negative. You know, need some in mind. You need to. So it's. Oh, it's a challenge.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Well, the reason why I ask is because there are a lot of challenges with things changing so much with immigration. It's probably the most challenging slash changing niche in the, in all of the

[Mark Carlin]

legal industry over the last year, 100%.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So that's why I wanted to know, because you were always having to stay on your toes and it's, it's gotta be hard to, to make processes out of things whenever they're always changing.

[Mark Carlin]

But if you are nimble enough, you can, you know, it's adjustments around the edges. Unless it's, you know, if it's a big change, it's a big change. And obviously the staff is well attuned to big policy changes. So it's not that the process really changes, is what can we do?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

What kind of relief is available?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I like the, I like the, I like the wording nimble. I think nimble is the right way.

[Mark Carlin]

You have to be especially nimble in today's environment. Today's, you know, political environment, and you have to be nimble.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you been able to use any sort of AI to help with the processing of forums?

[Mark Carlin]

I mean, we definitely helps condense a lot of material and summarize. So I've had clients come to me and say, well, here's all my travel records for the last, you know, five years. And it's just like, it's airplane tickets or receipts.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

And, you know, obviously you want to double check everything, but it helped me win a big citizenship case.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, nice that.

[Mark Carlin]

I said, why don't I just feed this in and see, you know, and it took a while, but it gave an index of all the dates, you know, departure and return. And I cross checked it, but saved me hours and hours of Time and it's AI has helped also on not really brief writing, but other kind of like organizing thoughts or organizing applications. So it still hasn't replaced the human touch, but it's really like taking a lot of data and making it into something that is comprehensive, you know, that is something can comprehend and is easily digestible.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure. Do you think there's any. With the current immigration environment even really under, under Biden, really under any administration, I wonder, is it something where you think the average person could do some of the immigration stuff on their own or is it still complicated?

[Mark Carlin]

It's still complicated. Now we've seen in the last several months, we know prospective clients have come to us already done their chat GPT or search. But like anything on the Internet, if you, if it's not your area of expertise, you're not really going to understand it. And there are a lot of nuances in immigration.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's the nuance.

[Mark Carlin]

There's so many because immigration is run by, as you said, policy changes. So okay, back, you know, when Clinton was there, there was this rule, but then it changed in 97 and then when Bush Jr. Came in, then in, you know, 2005, it changed. So and there's a lot, a lot of nuances. So we can tell that prospective clients have, have looked at things up online or asked chat GPT. So we're going to have to deal with that going forward. But we definitely have seen that thinking that it's easier. But I've also had many people come to us trying to do on their own and there's just one thing they didn't quite understand. And then, you know, it's like, it's. Immigration is like, it's like the monopoly where you go back. Do you go back to, you know, you started back, you get, if you get denied, you go back to the beginning.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh my gosh.

[Mark Carlin]

So it's, it's expensive and time consuming

[Tyson Mutrix]

when it comes to like. Do you ever deal with like the citizenship interviews? Oh, all the time. Is that what they're called?

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, there are, they're interviews.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Are there differences in. Does that one person that does interview make the decision?

[Mark Carlin]

Pretty much. They make a determination. We have to pass civics and history test and then they can make a decision based on your background if you have some criminal issues or other things in your home country. So they have, the officers have a lot of power whether to approve or deny a citizenship application.

[Tyson Mutrix]

About 10 years ago, I saw this TEDx in St. Louis and it was this patent attorney. Right. And they kept Track of the approval percentages based on the judge.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And so they knew who to avoid and all that. And I wonder if you could do something similar. When it comes to immigration, there are

[Mark Carlin]

actually groups that track which judges grant asylum, which don't grant asylum, which. And if they do grant asylum applications, from what countries do they grant? So there are those resources out there.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

And so it's not easy. You just don't know when you, when you go into uscis, you just don't know who, what officer you're going to get.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Oh, interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

You don't know until they call you. It's like going. You go to, like, a. It's like you're in a giant waiting room and they call your client's name out and they say, well, I'm Officer Smith. Come with me. We're going to do your interview today. You don't know who your interviewer is interviewing.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

Till you, Till they open the door and call you in.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Are you allowed to be in there with them?

[Mark Carlin]

Yes, the whole time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay, so. And are you. Are you ever, like, making arguments on their behalf?

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, well, I'm, I'm trying to explain things. Especially, you know, people say, oh, no, I'll. My clients say, I'll be fine. I'll be able to tell them, you know, people are nervous. Plus, this is my world. I understand. I understand the jargon.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

So I don't really argue as much as try to explain.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay.

[Mark Carlin]

They have something. You know, they had filed a previous application. Well, Officer, here's what happened in that previous application. Well, they had a criminal issue. Oh, yeah. But we actually, that case has now been dismissed. And here's all the papers.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Is there a written opinion?

[Mark Carlin]

If they deny your application, they do issue a written decision.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I would find it very interesting if you were to take all of the written decisions per judge. What are they called?

[Mark Carlin]

Well, those are USCIS officers.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Officers.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Take all the written opinions, if you can get it. Get your hands on them.

[Mark Carlin]

Sure.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And then analyze them for what the denials were.

[Mark Carlin]

That'd be really. Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You use the AI to do that, and then you can then be ready for who, whichever one it is.

[Mark Carlin]

It's a good idea.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That would, Is that, That's not, not a bad idea.

[Mark Carlin]

Especially in a market like. In a market like Vegas, where it's small.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

You know, Southern California, there's multiple immigration offices and there's hundreds of officers. It might be a little more difficult. But that's interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Also.

[Mark Carlin]

You can do it by maybe region, like certain areas you know, what is the. What is the San Diego office doing versus what's the Phoenix office doing?

[Tyson Mutrix]

That'd be so interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

We do, we do have, you know, lift serves and kind of scuttle butt about what's going on and.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Oh, you know, this happened to me today in Orlando. Is that happening in Dallas? So we do, we do crosstalk a lot.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You could vibe code a website where you then it. It could probably do it in real time where it tracks. You create it and it tracks the opinions and all that, tracks the percentages and all that. That would be a really interesting idea.

[Mark Carlin]

It's not a bad idea, especially if the attorneys are willing to share that information.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, interesting. How long have you been practicing?

[Mark Carlin]

35 years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Did you ever think that we'd be in this position right now?

[Mark Carlin]

I mean, sitting here with AI and what we're doing? No, I didn't think I'd ever be on a podcast sitting here. No. I mean, you know, I come from up when, you know, computers were like, you know, they were like giant, you know, like giant TV sets when I grew up as a kid.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

I didn't think I'd have a computer in my pocket that is stronger than anything I've ever seen. So, you know, it was always kind of Jetsons, you know, fantasyland era that things would be like this. So it's, you know, technology has made the practice, it's made it easier but quicker. So when I was coming up, you know, you'd always could say, oh, I have to research that. I have to look into that. And people, be it your law partners or your clients, gave you time. Now everyone knows that you have immediate access to information. So I've seen a lot of changes, but it's still what kind of person you are, how well you advocate for your clients. You know, it's still the personal touch matters, but our jobs as far as the technical aspects have gotten easier. But conversely, now much more is expected of us and quicker.

[Tyson Mutrix]

It's true.

[Mark Carlin]

So that's a downside.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How do you deal with that with clients?

[Mark Carlin]

You just try to explain, we need time to do this, and I want to do it right. And also last week we had four people detained and we're a little. We got a little distracted. I apologize. And that happens. So you just try to set expectations.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do they seem to understand, given the current climate?

[Mark Carlin]

The overwhelming majority absolutely do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

Absolutely do. Because I think they want us to be on our toes on their case, and they do understand what we're up against.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You have you have your clients for a long time, right?

[Mark Carlin]

You do. Especially if they get a green card, then they become a citizen, or you have family members. Yeah, so. Yeah, we do. You do. It's like the family members, you know, be it siblings, parents, cousins. So you have families that are clients for a long time.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How do you stay in touch with them and almost like, keep them. Keep their minds busy instead of, like, wandering what's going. What's going on with my case? What's going on my matter? Like, how do you keep them? How do you. How do you keep them satisfied?

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, my staff is really good, and we use, you know, we have a program which prompts us, like, at least every 30 days to kind of give the staff, give the clients an update. I have a great staff, very caring. And they're either immigrants themselves or grew up in houses with parents who are immigrants.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So they're very. You know, they understand what the clients are going through. So we're real good at keeping everyone informed. And in immigration, there are periods much like PI, where, you know, trial dates two years away. Once we submit a lot of things, there are periods where the months happen. Nothing. Nothing goes on.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

So we do try to keep our clients, you know, informed, but we do tell them at the beginning, first of all, you can reach out to us anytime. And, you know, communication is so much easier now with texting and everything else. So we. So my staff's pretty good at keeping everybody informed and giving them realistic timelines. But it's always better. What, under promise and overperform. That's what we try to do.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's. I mean, that's. That's always the goal. Right. I mean, it's definitely not easy. No, not always, but.

[Mark Carlin]

And then one good thing about immigration is that a client can go, look, it's publicly available. How long at this office, how long is immigration USCIS taking to process an application? So that's out there, so we're not hiding anything.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

But, you know, it is. It is frustrating for clients because sometimes one client's case will take three months, literally from start to finish. Other 18 months, just don't know. There's really. Sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to

[Tyson Mutrix]

it when it comes to guiding a client on something like that. How do you. I mean, how do you advise them and how do you prepare them? Because that. That, to me, that's such a stark difference. I mean, I can give you a general idea, but it's rare that I have a case that lasts three months. I mean, It's. That's. Unless it's a wrongful death case that we can. We can get those wrapped up pretty quick, but otherwise, not so much.

[Mark Carlin]

No. PI was much more predictable in that regard because you kind of know when the trials are being set in your. Whatever you file.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Exactly.

[Mark Carlin]

You know, like what's going on with the courts. That's the problem with some immigration. Some cases go flying through, others take a long time. So we just try to condition them. And it sometimes, most of the time, it doesn't mean anything. It's just that this office of USCS is more crowded or there's something going on with a technical issue. So. Yeah, you just try to temper expectations.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right. I want to step back. I want to go back to back in time.

[Mark Carlin]

All right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I want to give you a little bit of a break from the transition, but I want to go back to the transition whenever you took over. Right. And the. I mean, I'm assuming there was a change in leadership because your dad, was he the. Was he the one running the.

[Mark Carlin]

He ran his immigration practice. I ran the PI practice. Okay, so he. Yeah, he was definitely in charge of the immigration practice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so you took on his employees.

[Mark Carlin]

Yes. Which was not easy.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. That's what I wanted to talk about.

[Mark Carlin]

Very rough. In fact, there was one person who had been with him a long, long time who I knew would not work. We would not work well together. And you know, my dad, we had a lot of discussions about this and he was. He was worried that I would be lost or something. Wouldn't. I wouldn't be. Okay.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

And I was right. As soon as my dad passed, not shortly thereafter, we. I parted ways with this employee. And there's none of the employees that work with my dad then are with us now. Just. It happened.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

I had to have my own style. And you know, admittedly, when my dad passed, I can't say I was the best leader. I. I'm sure that I was much more short tempered than I should have been.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

Not as nice a little bit. Yeah. I was grieving and I. And looking back, it was a lot of grief and pain and really fear of like, oh, my gosh, how am I going to do this?

[Tyson Mutrix]

What advice would you give yourself if you could do it again?

[Mark Carlin]

Get help, get support. I was trying to do it, not that by myself, but I was really. I think I was trying to, like, I'll muscle through this. I can do this. I've done other things before. I would have definitely, in hindsight, really reached out to people to help me more. Quicker.

[Tyson Mutrix]

What does that mean?

[Mark Carlin]

That means, like, can I really sit down and talk to you about, you know, I really don't know. What should I do about these employees? What should I do about this system? How should I address this? I just don't know what to do. And the Guild was a big help to that, but it was. That took about two, three years. After my dad passed, was there an

[Tyson Mutrix]

actual succession plan in place?

[Mark Carlin]

This is a great story. My dad didn't. And, you know, my siblings might hear this. My. But he never really. He thought even though he knew he was terminally ill, he could not. It's tough to say. I'm getting, you know, a little choked up. He just couldn't come to grips that. And I can't blame him, that his time was coming. So we talked about it, but we really didn't sit down and write it out. We had some cursory conversations and, you know, we worked on financial things and, like, getting the paperwork done, but we. It was really tough to have that discussion, and we didn't have a strong succession plan, and that was part of the problem. He just thought I would. I. I assumed I would just take over and there wouldn't really be any, you know, I. I would work it out. I guess that was the assumption.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

And it. It. I don't know. It just. It's. And it's. You know, it's something that. Not only is my law partner, it's my father, so it's not something I can stay at arm's length and discuss. You know, I'm getting. I'm getting choked up thinking about it now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So it's.

[Mark Carlin]

It's not easy, so. No, there really wasn't. I don't know, quite frankly. Would that have made a huge difference? I don't know.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you think it might have made a difference when it comes to the transition in the firm? So people had an idea whenever, you know, whenever your dad is no longer with the firm.

[Mark Carlin]

Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

This is who's in charge. Here's who's gonna be running things. Do you think that might've helped?

[Mark Carlin]

It might have. I think they knew that the people that didn't stay with us, they kind of knew that we weren't gonna work well together. I don't. Because they were there. We were in the same office for years, so. And I mean, just stories I could tell about stuff that I had. I had to help with, but my dad was still around.

[Tyson Mutrix]

How long did they stick around before they left?

[Mark Carlin]

Most Within a year and then a couple, maybe like two, three years later,

[Tyson Mutrix]

because the ones within the year, I mean, that kind of sucks because you're still in that transition. You're still grieving.

[Mark Carlin]

Oh, we went through a lot of people pre Covid. We went through a lot of people that didn't work out. And I, I hope, I'm glad to say the last couple years we've had a very steady, you know, roster of employees. Very, very, you know. You know, people come and go. That's just, that's the nature of the business. But much more, much steadier the last two years or three years than it was the first three years after my dad died.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So from talking to you, it's, I, I, from that side of looking at it, it looks like you're a very proud parent. It seems like your, your kids really love you. Seems like you've had, it seems like you, you actually have really good relationships with your, with your kids. I don't know if that's true or not, but it seems like it is all true. How do you, how do you manage that? Because parenting is a difficult thing whenever it comes to running a practice. So how, what are some advice?

[Mark Carlin]

It wasn't easy, you know, my wife, during the high school and junior high and college, you know, was. It was great. Very, you know, was always there for them. I'm sure I could have been there a little bit more, but, you know, they're. My kids are adults now, so it's a little bit different. And, but we've always been close. And how do we tell we're close if we ever go on vacation? A lot of times they want to go with us. That's always a good sign.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's a good sign. Absolutely.

[Mark Carlin]

You know, we enjoy, we, you know, we, we're a very close family, so it was not easy to balance when they were younger. Obviously now we're empty nesters, so.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sure.

[Mark Carlin]

They're my daughter, my daughter's in graduate school back east and like I said, my son's a lawyer in San Diego, so it's a lot of, a lot easier to handle that.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Is there anything you would have done differently as far as parenting? Hmm.

[Mark Carlin]

I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say because I was, I really was happy with my career. And I think no matter what career I would have chosen, I probably would have been the same kind of driven person.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So, you know, you can always look back and say, well, I wish I'd have done this. I wish I'd have spent more time. But we did spend a lot of time together. But of course, I'm sure there's times I could have been there more mentally because, you know, after working 8, 10 hours as a lawyer, you're a little frazzled a lot of times when you

[Tyson Mutrix]

come home, especially after litigation.

[Mark Carlin]

Litigation. So I guess I wish I would have been sometimes a little less frazzled. I could sit my. I'm sure my wife would say that now. I wish I could be. I could come a little less frazzled. It's this job and running, as you know, and I think you and Jim talked about on the podcast owning a law firm next to raising kids or dealing with.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Sorry.

[Mark Carlin]

Owning and running a law firm is one of the hardest things you'll ever do in your life, you know, other than raising a family or having health problems. And so it's hard to shut that off when you come home.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, we care. And then in addition to worrying about our cases. So there's a lot going on upstairs, and it's tough to un. It's tough to unwind. So I. Long story short, I wish I had found a better way maybe to unwind either through exercise, meditation, yoga, something. But I didn't.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So I. The reason why I asked this is because I hear especially a lot lately you either have a choice of having a really good career or being a really good spouse and a parent. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Mark Carlin]

I think I was able to do both. Lot of, you know, not always great, but I tried my best. But I think that, you know, the example that I set for my kids, hopefully that my dad set for me, you know, when I grew up. Also, my mom was a nurse, and she worked quite a bit when I was in junior high, high school, and college because she. She was a nurse when she met my dad, you know, 15, 20 years of having kids, and then she. She wanted to go back to work. So I. I grew up with working parents, so I. I don't think I sacrificed one tremendously over the other. I really don't. And. And working with my dad gave me the benefit of setting. You know, had I worked at a big firm or with somebody else, maybe I would have had to sacrifice a lot on the family side. But here, like, no, you know, we're gonna go. We're gonna. I'm gonna take a vacation. We're gonna go somewhere I own. I own my practice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Do you think you'd be a very good employee right now?

[Mark Carlin]

Oh, no, I'd be a horrible Employee, Right.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

There's no way I'd be, I'd be terrible.

[Mark Carlin]

I'd be a horrible employee.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

Not only am I too old, but I, I've, I've run things for too long, you know, by myself and, you know, somebody telling me, you know, Mark, let's do it. We do it this way here.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, that.

[Mark Carlin]

I don't think that would go over too well with me.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I'm the same way. I'd be. I'd be ruined. Have you. So you've been doing this for 35 years. Has there been anything similar to AI that has been introduced into the legal field that's anything even remotely close to you?

[Mark Carlin]

I mean, the Internet and the way you could research things changed dramatically even when, you know, we. When I was in law school and then, you know, first as a lawyer and there still books. But they, you know, remember Westlaw was really slow and things are really, really slow and hard. The inner. The ease of getting information was maybe the Internet revolution. But I have never been so excited and also worried about something as AI.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

And even though I'm towards the tail end of my career, obviously worried about my kids and I'm worried about people that work for me now if. If you know who they work for in the future. It is a little scary. And it is scary how, you know, what's that thing, Google Notebook, where you can. So I was working on one of my PI cases for a mediation brief and I put in my client's deposition and I put in anyone listening to a 20 minute podcast on all the good things, bad things about this deposition and it was creepy as can be. It was insightful. But it was listening to a podcast where unless you told me this is an AI generated podcast, if I was driving my car, I would think it's just two people talking about this case I was working on.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I like using it to prepare for mediations where like, it gives me. It'll find things in medical records that I didn't notice, like. Or it will interpret it in a way that's really beneficial. Then I'm like, oh. Or it'll say like, the defense is going to really hammer on this thing. I'm like, oh, I never. I didn't see it from that perspective. That's fascinating.

[Mark Carlin]

No, it is. I actually used it on the habeas edition I filed because it said, well, you know, maybe there's this. But you know, Mark's client has this going on. I'm like, you know what, like the scarecrow from where they're like, oh, you know, what, light bulb went off? You know, that's a good point that I, maybe I should overemphasize that. Really. That I didn't really pick up on that. I mean, it was, it's, it was in my habeas petition anyway, so I think that's exciting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you, have you tried it where you can talk with it?

[Mark Carlin]

No, I haven't done. You can talk back.

[Tyson Mutrix]

You can talk and it'll like, talk with you and stuff.

[Mark Carlin]

I haven't got. Maybe I'll try that one after I leave.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That part's really interesting. Early on, I use ChatGPT, the whenever the voice mode was fresh introduced to be like a hot bench for the 8th Surrogate Court of Appeals. I felt that that was really beneficial.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So there's L. And that it's way more advanced than what it was.

[Mark Carlin]

No, it's crazy. It's, it's, I can't even imagine, like a year from now.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So, yeah. No, the answer to the question is nothing. As daunting as AI has come around, it's only been like, improvements. Now we're talking about existential issues for the law. Maybe not. We'll always have a law practice. People always needed a personal interaction. But how is it going to change it?

[Tyson Mutrix]

I, I mean, I've had my fears and I've talked about it on the show before. Like, I, I, I. My prediction, there's going to be a pretty big contraction. It's not going to replace the legal field, but you're going to see a pretty big contraction over the next five years or so. But like, the thing, do you think

[Mark Carlin]

in all areas of law or just.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I, no, I think, well, I think probably in all areas to a certain extent. But like, the big ones are going to be like, the ones that are, like, very transactional, those are going to be. The ones that are going to have a fence around them are going to be the litigation types. Because you can't have AI in court. It's not going to happen.

[Mark Carlin]

Correct.

[Tyson Mutrix]

So like, that, that part's worried me. And I, but it really didn't. I wasn't super, super concerned until a few, A few weeks ago, I started to see these massive layoffs happening in some of these law firms.

[Mark Carlin]

It was a big law, wasn't law firm. Like, like a thousand people.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, is wondering, is this the beginning of this? I don't know. I really don't know.

[Mark Carlin]

And will clients continue to pay, you know, hourly rates for younger Associates to do all this work. That, that's how we learn.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

If, if they know like, well, wait a minute, you know, no Google notebook can do all this, right? Why, why am I paying anyway? So that's gonna be interesting.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. And there's your, your. That's even with those rates increasing for lawyers, which I found interesting.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And that, that part's interesting. Do you think after 911 that there was any, any similar comparisons where there was just the unknown?

[Mark Carlin]

You mean as far as like the law?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, the law. Because in the world in general, to me that was whenever I was first starting college, that's whenever that happened. So for me it was kind of like, what's the world. How's it going to change 9 11.

[Mark Carlin]

Obviously the event was shocking. I was actually supposed to go to a court hearing that day when, when it happened, I woke up to my, you know, old fashioned clock radio with news station, you know that World Trade Center. But not only was that day shocking, but if you remember like the several months after anthrax and what's going on, remember all this. Yes. So that was. Everyone was unease now not on the level of COVID level because it still seemed a little far away but like what's going to happen?

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

You know, nothing compared to co. Nothing compared in my practice to the disruption caused by obviously Covid was the top thing of.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's to me felt like a pause button. Had been looking back. Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

The first year though was pretty tough.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, that's.

[Mark Carlin]

I mean I know it's, it's and it's. Sometimes I have to think, I go, did we really go through, did we really do all this? You know actually my son was living in New York. He, he hadn't started law school. He came back to, you know, live with us, you know, in California and we're all in. My daughter wasn't. Was a graduating senior in high school. Didn't have a graduation. We had, we had her high school graduation at a drive in. Literally.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Wow.

[Mark Carlin]

Drive in where you know, we all put. Sat in our cars.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

And it was, it was crazy.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Have you seen the movie Night of the Comet?

[Mark Carlin]

I have not.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Okay. No one has ever seen this movie.

[Mark Carlin]

I've heard about this.

[Tyson Mutrix]

We had. When I was a kid growing up, we had this, this, a movie on VHS called Night of the Comet. I can't find it anywhere.

[Mark Carlin]

I knew it though.

[Tyson Mutrix]

I think it was set in LA where this guy, apparently a comet hits the earth, right. And then he comes outside and he's got. I remember he's got his big sliding door. It looked like that door, but it was a sliding door, Right. Big massive door. And he comes out and there's no one around. Like, no one around. And that's what Covid reminded me of. I remember going downtown Columbia whenever everything got shut down, Right. And. Cause it was during a date night, and Amy and I were like. We went and made some sandwiches and went and sat by the river, and they were like, let's go drive downtown.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Nobody around. That was an eerie feeling.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah. You know, I grew up in LA and LA's infamous for its traffic. And I remember it was. My daughter was graduating. It was like we were doing something. They were going to put a big poster or a big sign in front of our house, like, julia Carlin, graduate of Oakwood School. And we had to drive to a friend's house in Pasadena, which is probably 15 minutes away. Like, on a Friday afternoon would take you an hour.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

I think we were back and within like 40 minutes, because we know. We basically, my wife and I drove over there, we met him outside, got the sign, drove back to our house. I think we were home in like 40 minutes. I'll never forget that. On a Friday afternoon in L. A.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Incredible.

[Mark Carlin]

Insane. Of course, now it's back to pre Covid.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Of course. Of course, that's. The lack of traffic lasted for a little bit. That was kind of nice. It.

[Mark Carlin]

Did it last for a couple years.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah, it was kind of nice.

[Mark Carlin]

Not. Anyway, it's back to normal.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Everyone's back in force.

[Mark Carlin]

Well, I think because remote work from home has gone down a bit.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah. Are you all remote at all?

[Mark Carlin]

A lot of the staff works a day or two a week remotely, and that's fine. So I'll have to get their work done. And I'm the type of boss. I don't really care about how you do it. Just. I want to. I want to have it done. And I want. I want you to be responsive to the clients.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Yeah.

[Mark Carlin]

So if you're at home, that's fine. And, you know, with technology, everyone's together and I'm in. If I'm in Las Vegas, I mean, so it's. We're not. We have an office, but several staff members do work remotely a day or two a week.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right. All right. Before we wrap things up, if people want to reach out to you, get in touch with you, ask questions. Maybe it's about immigration, maybe it's about running a program, maybe about succession. You never know. But what. How can they get in touch with You.

[Mark Carlin]

Well, it's Carlin and Carlin or Abogados. Carlene is our Spanish trade name. We're on Instagram, Facebook. Email me directly. You can look up my email. The State Bar of California has my, my direct email on there, so feel free to reach out. And it's Carlin with a K, as I always tell everybody. Mark with a C. Carlin with a K. Love it.

[Tyson Mutrix]

That's how I always remember it too, by the way.

[Mark Carlin]

Exactly. Right, yeah.

[Tyson Mutrix]

All right, so I'm asking this question because you've seen quite a bit. Right, Right. You've been through quite a bit. Right. And I wonder, what's your advice to new lawyers that want to start their firms? What, what would you tell them if they were to start their firm today?

[Mark Carlin]

It'd be great to have a mentor if you could. Now, it's maybe not something easy, but definitely reach out again, much like I should have done when my dad passed. Join some groups, be it the association, something else. Have connections with people. Because just a little thing somebody will say, I'm sure of stuff that you and I have talked about or Jim or Brian or other people in the guild. You know, masterminds have connections, make connections with people. I'm not talking about just, I'm not talking about for business. I'm talking about how do I do this, how do I operate this firm? You know, it can be business related, how do I market well, what things work. But, you know, make your circle as big as possible.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Right.

[Mark Carlin]

That's my best advice.

[Tyson Mutrix]

And I'd say I would just kind of add to that and like, try to make that as deep as possible too. Like so not just surface level.

[Mark Carlin]

Yeah, no, no, exactly. And not, not. And don't think about what in it for me. Think about what can this, you know, but this is really for support if you, you know, if you have that goal of opening your own firm, think about, you know, your progress steps, where you want to be in a year, two years, three years, five years, and then, you know, seek out others who've already done it. You don't need to reinvent the wheel.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Mark, thanks for doing this. Really, Tyson. And I know you choked up a little bit. I appreciate you being vulnerable. I appreciate you flying out to do this. I'll do it.

[Mark Carlin]

Anything for you. It's been great.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Appreciate it. Thank you.

[Mark Carlin]

All right, Tyson, thanks.

[Tyson Mutrix]

Foreign.

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