Why Big Law Almost Killed My Career and How Betting on Myself Changed Everything

Summary

Podcast Summary: Maximum Lawyer – “Why Big Law Almost Killed My Career and How Betting on Myself Changed Everything”

Episode Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Tyson Mutrux
Guest: Mark Brown, Plaintiff’s Lawyer & Entrepreneur

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Episode Overview

In this candid and energizing episode, Tyson Mutrux sits down with Mark Brown, a plaintiff's attorney renowned for building a rapidly growing law firm after departing from “Big Law.” Mark shares his personal journey through early disillusionment with traditional law firm life, the leap of faith it took to start his own practice, and the philosophies behind his explosive business and brand growth. The conversation is packed with honest reflections, business strategies, and practical advice for lawyers and entrepreneurs on betting on yourself, overcoming fear, and staying true to your values—no matter how risky the road may appear.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Big Law Wasn't the "Dream" (01:29–04:03)

• Mark’s Early Disillusionment: Mark realized quickly that Big Law wasn’t for him, despite its status as the “safe” and “successful” path preached throughout law school. He recalls a pivotal memory during his first year—hiding in a bathroom stall, overhearing seasoned lawyers admit, “Six minutes at a time. God, our lives suck.” (02:10)
• "I Achieved My Dream—And Didn’t Want It": Mark share that even after attaining his goal of making it to a top law firm, he felt like he’d made the wrong career choice—“even worse than failure, I felt like I chose the wrong career.” (03:12)
• Hard Lessons on Law Firm Realities: Over five years in insurance defense and Big Law, Mark learned valuable skills but craved a practice that allowed for greater connection with people—eventually discovering personal injury law fit him better.

2. Making the Leap: Risks, Fears & Family Responsibilities (05:49–07:10)

• Family as Both Anchor and Motivation: As a young father, Mark knew failure was not just personal—it would directly impact his child. “I had my son when I was 18 years old, so it didn’t afford me the opportunity to make as many mistakes.” (05:57)
• Taking the Plunge Without a Safety Net: Mark saved eight months’ worth of living and office expenses before starting out solo. By month six, his reserves were nearly gone—until a wrongful death case landed, which changed everything.

3. The Breakthrough Case and Refusing to Settle (07:10–10:53)

• How the First Big Case Arrived: Days after opening, Mark received a tough wrongful death case where initial facts seemed bleak. Despite financial pressure, he "refused to settle that case because that’s not getting the client what they deserve.” (08:22)
• Doing Right by Clients – No Matter the Cost: Even with his own lights almost turned off and creditors calling, Mark decided “My law firm would never be about a client being a number. It's always about the client, not about me.” (09:30)
• Advice to New Lawyers: “If you take a shortcut, you’ll be cutting yourself short… The energy you put out is what you will receive… Word will get out, you know, the calls won’t come in. Just do what’s right, stick to your guns, and serve your clients.” (11:55)

4. Entrepreneurial Expansion: From Law to Cheesesteaks (12:50–15:59)

• Diversifying With Big Dave’s Cheesesteaks: Mark and his wife, self-professed foodies, opened a franchise of Big Dave’s Cheesesteaks. “So, yeah, I practice law and I sell cheesesteaks.” (12:55)
• Balancing Businesses and Teaching: Mark leans on strong operations and teamwork—“I have great staff… the law firm runs like a well-oiled machine at this point.” (15:01)
• Future as an Educator: Preparing to start teaching at South Carolina State University packs his schedule even fuller.

5. Smart Marketing & Building a Brand (16:06–22:37)

• Starting With Social to Billboards: Mark’s first marketing investments were on social media, leveraging a viral “support my new law firm” post with over 400 shares. “My phone started ringing that week.” (18:33)
• Scaling Up During COVID: While competitors withdrew during uncertainty, Mark doubled down—“Man, I didn’t have anything. So I’m about to just save my little bit of money? Nah, let’s throw it at it. Let’s do this… You got to bet on yourself.” (17:32)
• Philosophy on "Billboard Lawyering": Mark acknowledges the stigma but insists, “I try to make all of my billboard designs… very tasteful. You get a sense of my true personality from my marketing.” (21:00)

6. Mindset Shifts, Market Competition & Staying Authentic (19:23–33:24)

• Adjusting to Plaintiff-Side Mindset: It took Mark “a good three years before a complete shift” from suspicious defense-side thinking to full empathy and advocacy for plaintiffs. (20:51)
• Dealing with Large Firms Entering the Market: On Morgan & Morgan’s entry to South Carolina—rather than impacting Mark’s growth, their broader advertising “taught people they needed a lawyer—so they called me instead.” (27:33)
• Knowing Your Personal Brand: Mark references a Gary Vaynerchuk quote (31:42) and shares his own philosophy: “Just be yourself. Being different is cool. As long as you’re true to yourself, you’ll succeed. And if you don’t succeed, at least you’ll still be happy.” (32:09)

7. Sustained Growth and Client Focus (35:12–36:33)

• Delivering Value, Not Overextending: Mark believes “if you get too much on your plate, buy another plate… just keep growing.” This means expanding staff before quality suffers, and selectively taking cases best-suited for his firm’s approach.
• Giving Back and Community Presence: Mark’s involvement in local events merges his personal and professional brands, but he avoids heavy-handed cross-marketing between the law firm and the cheesesteak business.

8. Looking Ahead: New Bets, Future Growth (36:56–38:22)

• Expanding Geographically: Mark hints at entering a new state in the coming year—"there will be another state added and we're going to continue to provide great service across the country.” (37:21)
• Full-Circle Inspiration: Mark credits the Maximum Lawyer podcast with giving him the courage to start his firm. “This podcast helped me get the courage to open up my own law firm… I’m hopeful that I’ll help some other younger lawyers achieve their goals as well.” (37:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Big Law Burnout:
  “Six minutes at a time. God, our lives suck.” (02:18, Mark Brown recalling a senior partner)
• On Self-Doubt:
  “Even worse than failure, I felt like I chose the wrong career.” (03:12, Mark Brown)
• On Taking Risks:
  “You got to bet on yourself. If you don’t believe in yourself enough to bet on yourself, why are you opening up a business?” (17:56, Mark Brown)
• On Integrity:
  “If you take a shortcut, you’ll be cutting yourself short…The energy you put out is what you will receive.” (11:55, Mark Brown)
• On Brand Authenticity:
  “Just be yourself. Being different is cool. And as long as you’re true to yourself, you’ll succeed. And if you don’t succeed, at least you’ll still be happy.” (32:09, Mark Brown)
• On Growth:
  “If you get too much on your plate, buy another plate.” (35:41, Mark Brown)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:29–04:03] Realizing Big Law Isn’t For Everyone
• [05:49–07:10] Family Responsibility and Starting a Firm
• [07:10–10:53] First Big Case and the Ethics of Client Advocacy
• [12:50–15:59] Running Both a Law Firm and a Cheesesteak Business
• [16:06–17:56] Billboards, Marketing, and Betting on Yourself
• [18:33–21:00] Social Media Launch and Building a Personal Brand
• [27:33–29:41] Competing with Mega-Firms like Morgan & Morgan
• [31:42–33:24] Staying True to Your Own Brand DNA
• [36:56–37:21] Future Expansion and Ongoing Bets

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Final Thoughts

Mark Brown’s journey is a compelling case study in resilience, self-awareness, and the power of authentic, values-driven growth—proving that betting on yourself, serving your clients first, and standing out by just being you can lead to success far beyond anything Big Law promises. His story is an inspiration for lawyers and entrepreneurs alike, and a practical manual for anyone hesitating to take their own leap of faith.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.

[A]

So, Mark, you started in insurance, defense and big law, I believe. And I think a lot of attorneys, they choose that path for a variety of reasons. Something, it's a safe path. Some think that, you know, that's the way where you can go and you make a lot of money. And so I wonder, when did it become clear to you that staying in that world wasn't the right path for you?

[B]

It became clear pretty early on. I didn't act on it for a while. But you know, all through law school, they know, they preached through us. Big law, Big law, Big law. So that's what, that's all I knew. That's what I thought would be the measure point for my success if I made it to a top 100 law firm. So once I got there, you know, I realized early on that might not be the career path for me. I remember during my first year of practicing, I was actually in the restroom because I would, I guess I can say it now, it doesn't matter, but every now and then I would run and hide in a stall just to get a breath of fresh air. And I was in there and my partner came in and was at the urinal and another lawyer came in. He said, hey man, how's it going? Yeah, you know, living the dream. Yeah. Six minutes at a time. God, our lives suck. And I'm sitting here listening to this, I'm like, wait a minute, you've been doing this all these years and you talk about your life sucks. So, you know, from, you know, I did that for like five years between big law and I went down to a more regional insurance defense firm, and then I got out of there.

[A]

Did it feel like a failure whenever you were like, okay, I chose this path and it just didn't work out? Did it feel like it was. Like it was something you failed at, or did you view it differently?

[B]

No, I still saw it as a success. Success, because that was my goal to get there, and I achieved that. But even worse than failure, I felt like I chose the wrong career. I did not want to be a lawyer. Being a lawyer is not for me. I wasted all this time, this money, this effort, and I'm telling people, don't go to law school. I don't enjoy being a lawyer. But I didn't realize that I loved being a lawyer. I just didn't like the setting and that I was working in.

[A]

It's amazing how things like that can happen, because I. I remember I kind of felt that way about law school at some point until I took trial advocacy. And then everything kind of changed for me. It was like, okay, this is why I'm here. All this other crap is just nonsense. It's just crap. So we. You were, you were in the bathroom stall, right? And you had that moment. How much time went by from the. That moment to when you actually pulled the trigger and you. And you got out of there.

[B]

Okay, so that was towards the end of my first year, and I worked on the defense side for a little over five years. So it was about three and a half years after that that put it in my mind that this wasn't for me. And I didn't think, oh, I can go and be a plaintiff lawyer or injury lawyer, whatever. I didn't think about changing. I just thought that I screwed up and I don't need to be a lawyer. I was worried about, am I going to be one of those guys that's, you know, when I get 40, 50 years old, I'm just looking back on my life upset and grumpy as I kept, you know, progressing and sticking it out. Because I learned a lot. I got a lot of great experience working in that setting. But about three and a half years later, I'm like, okay, I've learned quite a bit. I've been Doing this at that point, it was like four, four and a half years. I have the tools and the skills I need. And I met all these plaintiff lawyers. They seem so happy. Like, I didn't understand. Why are you so happy? I'm not. And so then I started asking the questions that needed to be asked, like, how much money are you making? Or what is your daily activity? What it's like, you don't have to bill hours. And once I learned all that, like, okay, I think I'll be happier in that setting and that type of practice. And, you know, and then when I went to the insurance defense, I'm seeing all these people that I had no idea how many people get injured. Like, I had no idea there was so many car accidents, so many people that needed injury lawyers. But now I'm seeing all these people that need help. And I know that I have the tools to be able to switch sides and help them. And plus, I enjoy talking with the defendants so much more than I enjoy talking with the insurance adjusters and all the corporate people, because I'm a people person. So I want to talk with people, not businesses or entities. So it. It was the perfect fit for me.

[A]

Did the fact that you were a pretty young father, did that have any effect on how long it took you to start your own firm?

[B]

It did, because I knew I couldn't mess up. When you don't have as many responsibilities, you can start over, you can mess up, and that's what, you know, that's the way life works. But I had my son when I was 18 years old, so it didn't afford me the opportunity to make as many mistakes, because if I made a mistake, it didn't just affect me. It affected my son. And, you know, working in big law or working on the defense side, I made a lot of money. So I'm gonna give this up. A steady paycheck, and I'm gonna give this up in the hopes that people will call and hire me versus those big law firms. Of all the marketing budget, why are they gonna call me? How am I gonna succeed? I felt like I could do it, so I just stepped out on faith, and it worked out, thankfully.

[A]

Yeah, it definitely takes a lot of faith, a lot of courage to give up those golden handcuffs and go and go out and. And start something like. Especially like a personal injury firm. Because unless you start with a bunch of cases already, you are in the negative for several months before you. Unless you get lucky and a wrongful death case walks in through the door and you Settle it right away. Like, that's. You're. You're in the negative. So how did that affect your decision making to. To open up a personal injury firm?

[B]

That's a great question. I'm going to answer your question, and I'm going to come back and talk about that wrongful death case that walks in the door. I didn't want to open up a personal injury law firm. Once I made the decision, I started putting fillers out, trying to find other law firms that I could go work for. I never wanted to operate my own law firm. And every lawyer that was interesting to me wasn't interested in paying me what I felt like I was worth. And let's be honest, everybody thinks they're worth more than they really should be paid. Everybody. I think I was pretty reasonable, but it just wouldn't work out. So I was forced to have to open up my own law firm. So I saved up what I thought would be enough money to carry me and all my overhead for eight months. So I saved up to dip into my savings, sold some of my investments, and I was like, all right, I'm going to be able to do this. I got to month six, which was January 1st. So going into the seventh month, I had no money to pay rent. I had no money left. But it worked out to where? On the. The. I opened on July 1st. Seven days later, July 8th, I got a phone call, and it was a wrongful death case. And the individual that unfortunately lost his life. Not going deep into the facts. 11:30 at night, dark, dark road, no lights. And they're walking in the middle of the roadway, and, you know, had been drinking stuff, and they were hit. So everything was pointed to them being at fault. But I fought the case. I filed on it. And then November, they offered me six figures. They offered me six figures, and I hadn't made any money. I had made no money since I opened because all these cases that are coming in, they're pending. And I saw my money was running short. But I refused to settle that case because that's not getting the client what they deserve. Then somehow in July, the attorney that got assigned to it, I guess they realized that I wasn't going to back down, and they actually tendered the policy limits. So the first case I ever resolved happened to be a very large case. And it came at a time when I told all my bill collectors, I can't pay you. I'll get y' all whenever. If I didn't have lights, oh, well, I'm not selling my Clients short, but everything worked out.

[A]

That takes. It takes a lot of guts. Where does that come from? Is that something from your background? Because that's not something that's easy to do.

[B]

I don't come from a lot of money. I don't. I've not, you know, and I am comfortable with not having. Even when I worked at my first, you know, first part of my career, I made good money, but I didn't live above my means. I live. I'm comfortable. I don't need this. And when I opened up my practice, part of my drive came from seeing so many lawyers while on the defense side that I felt weren't doing it correctly. They were worrying about how much money they were going to make. They were worrying about their business and not worrying about the client. The client, which is a number. My law firm would never be about a client being about the number. It's always about the client, not about me or anybody. So, yeah, I could have put some good money in their pocket, and I could have made the largest amount of money that I'd ever received at one time in my life. But that was not fair to the individual to walk alive or to his family. And. And I would have. Yeah, there's no way I would have sold them short.

[A]

Do you think that your clients, at the time, that they understood the pressure that you were going through?

[B]

Oh, they never know the pressure. I'm not gonna sweat in front of people, no matter what. Common, cool, calm and collected, you know, no matter what I'm. What I'm going through doesn't matter. It's only a matter about the client. So there was no need for them to know anything about what I'm going through. I had the skills and had the resources to make sure they got the good result. And. And that's all they knew. And that's all I care to share with them.

[A]

You know, it's easy to say that in right now with. With hindsight and all that. It's really easy to say that. I wonder what advice you might give to another lawyer that's just starting out that may be maybe facing that same situation, because that's a really difficult decision. And it's really easy for us to say, yeah, really, Even if it didn't happen to you, it'd be really easy for us to Monday, Monday morning, quarterback it and say, oh, well, you know, they did. You did a really good job there, or you should have done this or you should have done that. But I wonder what advice give to someone that's in that moment, because that is a real world business decision. It's also a real world ethical decision that for your business, it could be, and for your personal life, you know, a six figure case, yeah, it was, it's underselling what that case is worth, but it's, it's much needed money for you and your firm. And you didn't sell your client down the river. You made a really tough decision and one that benefited your client. So what is your advice to. To people that might be facing that same situation whenever they're starting their firms?

[B]

The only way, the only advice I can have to them is, is that karma exists. The energy that you put out in the world will come back to you. And there's a reason why certain lawyers are so successful and do so well compared to some other lawyers. If you take a shortcut, you'll be cutting yourself short. If you do people wrong, then wrong, you know, you know people are going to do you wrong. So I, I'm a strong believer that the energy that you put out is what you will receive. And if you are selling your clients short, you might make a few pennies, a few dollars today that that money won't last long. Word will get out, you know, the calls won't come in. And not only that, but the defense lawyers that you were working against, they know you're a pushover. They know that you'll take the lowball offer. And word travels. They have listserv, we all have listservs. They're going to talk about you. So just do what's right, stick to your guns, and serve your clients.

[A]

All right, so tell me about, is it Big Dave's Cheesesteaks?

[B]

Is that.

[A]

Yeah, Big Dave's Cheesesteaks. Tell me about that.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I love food. So my wife and I were big foodies, and I get fixated very easily. So with my law firm, I think that's why I was able to have such a good growth so quickly, because I just got fixated on the business. And then once I got everything running like a well oil machine, I was like, all right, I want to do something else. And what's better than food? I mean, you ever had a authentic cheesesteak from Philadelphia? I mean, they're the best. So we found this restaurant concept called Big Day's Cheesesteaks. The CEO, Derek Hayes, he's out of Philadelphia, but he moved to Atlanta, opened up his first location, and it blew up. And my God, the food is good. So my wife and I, the, hey, we like cheesesteaks. We Want to open a restaurant? Let's do it. So, yeah, so I practice law and I sell cheesesteaks.

[A]

It's really incredible. So you've got, you've got the location in Columbia and then you've got one that's coming to Greenville, is that right?

[B]

Yeah, Greenville, South Carolina will be open the first half of next year.

[A]

Got a, got a buddy Brooks, Derek, that lives out that way. So I'm sure he's going to love those, those cheesesteaks. So that's awesome. How much time do you spend on the cheese sticks and how much time do you spend on the law firm?

[B]

Luckily, I don't have to spend much time on the cheesesteaks because my partner is my wife. So shout out Dr. Kierra Brown. She does the heavy lifting for the most part, but we have a director of operations that runs everything for us. So, you know, I sit on the calls and I listen and when she nudges me, I, I say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I chime in then. So I don't spend as much time on the, on the cheesesteak restaurant because, you know, my firm is still growing, so I'm spending 90% of my time with the law firm.

[A]

I wonder, because this is a question I get quite a bit. I wonder how you manage your time because you've got, you've got the franchises and then you also, you've got the law firm. You're married, you're a parent, and you're going to be teaching. I don't know if you, if you started yet at South Carolina State University where you're, it looks like you're going to be teaching practice of law and then also legal research. So how do you manage your time? That's, that's a, that's got to be a tough one.

[B]

Yeah, I don't sleep and I've given up eating quite, quite a bit. No, I have. So let's talk about the law firm, because that's primary. I have great staff. We have a lot of, you know, our procedures in the firm. And it runs like a pretty well oiled machine at this point. You know, it's not just me. I have my big head over all the billboards, but it's not just me. There's two other lawyers there. We have all the support staff. I think it's probably about 50, 15 people at this point. So it, yeah, I have a lot of help. The restaurant, you know, my wife and the director of operation, and each of our locations had the general manager there. So it's you know, not much from me. And the teaching is a, you know, one day a week gig. I have not started yet. We're getting my lesson plan and all of that stuff worked out and I should be starting in fall of next year. So it's going to be interesting when the teaching aspect starts, but right now, life's great.

[A]

At what point did you add the billboards and what was. What things did you consider whenever you decided to go that route?

[B]

So you have to market new lawyers. There's some lawyers say, oh, I don't do billboards. I don't market. That's because they've already been out and built a name for themselves through somebody else's law firm or somewhere or another. If you're starting out, you can have all the experience in the world. I mean, well, not all experience. You're starting out. You could be the greatest lawyer and have all the skills in the world. Nobody knows it. You have to get your name out. Whether you network or whatever you choose to do. You have to market. It's a form of marketing. I chose to start with social media. That was my first start with marketing my law firm because I didn't have any money. Once money started coming in, which was probably you, I started July 1st of 2019. My first billboard went up September 2020. One billboard went up in Sumter, South Carolina, my hometown. Drove down the street, saw it put over the side of the street so I could get out and take a picture. And. And it worked. 1. And then when more kids are coming out, you just keep adding on, adding on. And now people ask me, how many billboards do you have? And like, I don't know, once we got above 50, I. I quit counting.

[A]

I love that during a time. So September 2020, that's whenever people were pulling all their money out of marketing. They were starting to hoard all their money because they were afraid about what the future was. You put the gas pedal down and that had to have been a risky or it was definitely a risky decision, but it had to been a scary decision to make.

[B]

It wasn't scary because you said a key word there. A lot of people were afraid. They were afraid to lose what they already had. Man, I didn't have anything. I'm new to this, you know what I'm saying? So I. I've not had anything before. It's like, whatever. So I'm about to just save my little bit of money. Nah, let's throw it at it. Let's do this. I looked at all the other law firms because I wasn't fortunate enough. Like the PPP loans and all that stuff you had to have salary people for. So I didn't have any of that because I started, you know, in 2019. I didn't. And I wasn't even on salary my first year. So I didn't get any government assistance, any help. I took the money that I worked for, never took out a loan from a bank or anything. I used my money and built my law firm and I put it all towards, you know, marketing and my firm. You got to bet on yourself. If you don't believe in yourself enough to bet on yourself, why are you opening up a business?

[A]

Did you start the social media marketing before exiting your prior firm or when did you start that? Because you, you started to get cases pretty quickly. So how did that work?

[B]

So I took one month off from the time I left the insurance defense firm to the time I opened my door. I think I left the firm the first few days of June 2019 and I started making posts just about, you know, my desire to help people and feeling conflicted because I'm on the defense side, you know, I started setting up the picture. And then July 1st, when I opened that morning at 9am, I put out a post introducing my law firm and reintroducing myself and talk about what all I've done in the last five or so years and the reason why of my law firm. And I said the number one way that you can support me in this endeavor is to share this post. And they had over 400 shares and my phone started ringing that week.

[A]

So the going from an insurance defense mindset to the plaintiff side is that's not easy for people to do. So how are you able to make that mindset shift?

[B]

Are you talking about more so on how to evaluate cases and handle them or.

[A]

Yes, exactly. Yes.

[B]

I was very selective of the cases I signed up and brought in because in my mind, oh, the plaintiff's not telling truth because I didn't know it, but they instilled that in my brain, like working on defense side. And, and I didn't. It took me several months to realize it. I'm like, wait a minute. But I think the case that really proved it to me was that that one case that I mentioned where the gentleman lost his life because all the facts showed that it wasn't the driver's fault, it wasn't the car, the car's fault. And I think I mentioned he was walking the road. It was a automobile versus pedestrian. But when I Met his mother. I was so hurt and I felt her emotions and I didn't care. It wasn't about right or wrong. It was about helping this woman. And I didn't care. I was gonna do anything I could to help this woman. And then once that case resolved, I was like, wait a minute, maybe I'm not looking at these cases right. I don't have to be as defense minded with each of these cases. And it took a while to shift my brain. I think that really it took probably a good three years before a complete shift.

[A]

Do you think that putting up billboards puts a target on your back? And if so, I guess, what are your thoughts on that?

[B]

I think it does. I think anything you do puts a target on you. Billboards are going to put targets on you in two ways. Billboards and TV commercials. There are always going to be other lawyers that talk down on billboard lawyers or talk down on lawyers that have TV commercials. I crack jokes on billboard lawyers too. I'm a billboard lawyer. I don't care. But you know, it's just like they're pretty much, they're talking down because they really wish they had those boards. And they get a lot of cases from the billboard lawyers to refer it in. And then some clients, it cuts out a part of the, of the population that will actually hire you. Because some clients, some potential clients, they don't want a lawyer that's up on billboards or it's on tv. So what I chose to do is try because I can't say I did it completely, but I tried to make all of my billboard designs and anything I put on tv not like other lawyers. There's very, it's very tasteful. You really get. I hope that people get a sense of my true personality from my marketing. I try to make my marketing different from the other marketing I see in my, in my area, in my market. And then even the, the T, the local TV station, the main TV station in my market is wistd and they came in with an offer for a segment called the Legal Minute. So every Thursday during the 6 o' clock news, I'm able, they provide me one minute to come in and provide a little bit of legal information that runs. And that's a way for everybody in the community to really get a better feel for who I am and to see me speak on camera each week. And you know, I just try to keep everything tasteful so people can get a real taste of my personality and know that I'm here to help them.

[A]

Yeah. And you can turn all that into social media campaigns. You can, you can take photographs of you behind the scenes and shoot videos about before you're about to go up. You can do, you can turn that one little minute into so much content. That's, I think that's, that's, that's a really, it's a really smart thing to do. Back to the billboard. So here's my thing, here's my. I, I worked for a billboard firm. I worked for a volume firm. And I've always had the saying, if you put up billboards, get billboard clients, and I'll tell you my perspective and I think that there's a right way of doing it and there's a wrong way of doing it. At least the firm that I worked for, the problem that they, they had was they would take their, all of their line of credit, they would spend all their money on the advertising. And then we were hustling until September to get these cases turned because it does work, it does drive cases, but it limits the cases you can, you can, you can take on. You're limited to the, a very specific subset of premises cases that you can take on because those take longer. Generally. You have to take the easy car crash cases. If it's complicated, you, you're, you're probably not going to take on a complicated car crash case. You're probably going to refer those things out. So you, it limits the cases you can take. You're, you're, you're very cookie cutter and you're just, I think it does force you to be in a position like we were talking about before, where you're trying to turn the cases so that you don't. And you could, you could put yourself in a tough business decision, okay, am I going to turn this case or do I need to settle that case so I can pay off my line of credit, like that kind of a thing. So it can, it can really put some of these firms, these volume, volume firms in a really tough crunch if they're not turning the cases fast enough. So that's my, that's really my only thing against it. If you can put them up. And if you have a, if you have an entire campaign around like you have, right? Because another mistake that I see people make is they just put up, they'll put up a couple billboards and that's. And they're like, well, I'm not getting any results. Yeah, no shit, you're not getting results because there's no, you have no campaign. You don't have a radio campaign attached to it or a TV campaign or you're not going on TV for a minute to talk about it. You don't have a social media campaign surrounded. It's got to be part of an overarching campaign. You can't just throw up a couple billboards. So it sounds like you, you're probably doing it the right way. So I do tease billboard lawyers sometimes because I, I used to be one. I used to work for that firm. So I guess I would technically be one at that, at that point. So that's my only poo pooing of it. So I don't, here's what I, I don't want listeners like, well, you didn't say anything about the billboard lawyer when you came on. So I, I, I kind of joke about it, too. But I do think that there is a right way of doing it. I think that, I think that sounds like you probably are doing the right way. You, you, and I can tell you your heart is in the right position. Right in the right spot.

[B]

Yeah. And I agree with you, man. I, I'll tell you, I cried, Joe. Some billboard lawyers, I cried jokes on myself all the time because, yeah, there are more that are doing it the wrong way, I think, than the right way. And those who are doing it the right way, they know, they know they're doing it the right way and vice versa.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, there's a reason why Morgan Morgan's doing it. Right. Morgan and Morgan has a whole, it's a, it's a part of an entire campaign. And here's the, and part of it, too. They can litigate the files. They've got the Keith Mitnicks of the world where they can litigate the files. If you're, if you're putting up billboards and you're not litigating files, those are the ones doing it the wrong way. Because you are leaving so much money on the table. They know that all you're going to do is you're going to get it up to a certain point, they're going to lowball you, and then you're just going to settle it is what's going to happen. So if they know that it's got someone like, on the other side, like you, where you're going to litigate the file, it's a different situation.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you brought up the Morgan Morgan. They just came into my market this year, and it's, it's been an interesting experience.

[A]

Yeah, they came into Missouri. They came to St. Louis a few few years ago and it was, it's definitely had an effect on the market. You had the big, the big dog in St. Louis was Brianna Croupen and you had Brianna Croupin, you had Brianna Brown. Those were like the big two that were in St. Louis and Briana Croupen has, they've been this, they've been a really good attack dog of, of having these because for years, ever since I've been practicing and probably well before that you had out of town firms, these big volume firms coming into town and then they would try to, you know, do a bunch of marketing and peel off a bunch of the market share for Brenna Krupin and Brandon Croupen would go on TV and run these ads that would be something like, we don't care if you don't hire us, but we want you to hire a St. Louis firm, a local firm. And it was effective. It was really, really effective. But Morgan and Morgan's just got too much money and they got, they. I don't know if you had this in, in Columbia, South Carolina, but in St. Louis they were running ads saying who it was. All these innuendos about size and who's bigger. And it was wild. I couldn't believe it. But the, the thing is, is that cash is king and, and Morgan and Morgan end up winning that battle, I'd say. But they peeled off a bunch of that market share. But they are, it's one of those things where they're, they're spreading all over. So I wonder how is them coming into your market?

[B]

How has things is what's interesting. Not. I was very, I was worried when Morgan Morgan came, I got when they were coming a couple years ago and then when they came, ah, crap, here we go. But I haven't, you know, I haven't done much different since they got here. And this has been the, the growth this year has been crazy. So it's almost like they're coming here and they're teaching everybody in the market you need to hire a lawyer, you need to make a claim. And they're like, Morgan. Morgan's right. Let's call Mark Brown. So I mean, I'm cool with it. Yeah, it's been, I was worried, but it's been good so far.

[A]

Yeah, their, their whole strategy and coming into a market is really interesting because, and I don't know how it worked with, with you, but they came in, they bought a firm, an established firm in, in St. Louis, an attorney that's pretty well respected in St. Louis and, and Kind of took over that office. And then they had people that would go out all over the state and they would just drop into our office, hey, we want to set up a referral relationship. And it would. They would drop off tins of popcorn and food, and it was an interesting thing that they would do. I wonder if they, if they did something similar for you all.

[B]

They did not buy out another law firm. They started first with bringing the popcorn and the, the folders and just give us your bad cases. You don't want the small cases. We're just there. Just do us. And I noticed some lawyers around it that fell for it because pretty much what you're doing is giving them a plug into your connections. They're adding people to retarget, marketing to, and they're making a name for themselves in the community. So you help feed the machine, which I respect anyway. And because even more than Morgan, I love it. I mean, I respect that firm. That's a. He's. He's done an amazing job building that firm. That. Yeah, I respect it. I try to learn from them.

[A]

Well, you know that they were, they were like legit. Whenever they're. You see them on like, they're, they're running ads on podcast cast interviews like, like in like the biggest podcast in the world. Like, so that, that's how big Morgan Morgan is. Right. They're not some just regional injury from. They are a global brand, which is what's really fascinating.

[B]

Yeah. Is it? Fascinating is the word, but yeah. So they got the connect the networks and then they opened up a small satellite shop here with one lawyer, and they've been steadily building from there.

[A]

Gotcha. That's interesting because that's. I've heard, I guess it's a few different ways I've heard them doing it. That's. I guess that's one of them. But I have heard at least that the, the main way that they've been doing it is they've. They've been essentially taking over a firm, which to me is. Sounds like a really, really expensive thing to do is actually buying a firm instead of just putting in, you know, one lawyer and running all the cases through like some central location. That's, that's, that's basically what. What they were doing in some of these other ones. But I wonder if when you started, if you kind of think back, have, have things gone as well as you expected them to?

[B]

Way better. I could have never imagined how things have gone. I don't even understand how they've gone this well. Nah, this was my wildest dreams. And, and again, that's why I'm able to say, you know, if you just do right by people and put the, the blessings and the karma out, it comes back to you tenfold. You know, I'm just a little kid from country behind City Stump to South Carolina and then in my, I can't remember, it was my fourth or my fifth year, it was my fifth year. There's a company called Inc 5000 where they rate like the fastest growing companies in the, in the country. And my firm was actually ranked on there because of growth related to revenue. And I never would have could have been imagined to be named on a list like that before and listed so highly on it. I actually always talk, I had to pull it up to see where it was on it. Out of the 5,000 companies that were on the list, I was number 670. And between 2022 and 2024, my law firm has 701% growth in revenue. So it's just like. And then every year it's just been, I don't know, I don't know. I just do right by people and they'll come back to you. That's the only thing I can preach.

[A]

Yeah, it's good advice. I'm going to read this quote to you from Gary Vaynerchuk and get your, get your thoughts on it. He says you have to understand your own personal DNA. Do not do things because I do them. Or Steve Jobs or Mark Cuban tried it. You need to know your personal brand and stay true to it. Can you speak to that?

[B]

Yeah. Like once you learn who you are, learn your capabilities, learn what makes you happy and what you can offer to the world. If you know that whatever business you're in, you're selling cheesesteaks, practicing law, selling cars, you're going to be successful, you know, you have. But you have to truly know as you and be true to yourself. There's so many other lawyers that do things on social media that I can copy and I can be funnier. Maybe I can make my video funnier than this one. I get more clicks than this one. But that's not my personality. I'm not being true to myself. You know, it's, there's probably a little bit too much information, but I have a tattoo that says am I cool yet? And when I went to get it, I told him I want him to tattoo it like a little five year old that's laying down, watching cartoons with a crayon. Right. Like that. Because so many people Myself included. As you're growing up, you want to be cool, you want to fit in, you want to be liked, you want all this. But nah, you don't need to be cool. Be yourself. Just be yourself. Being different is cool. And as long you're true to yourself, you'll succeed. And if you don't succeed, at least you'll still be happy.

[A]

I'm so glad I asked you that question now, because that is. That was. That's such a cool story. It's. It's a really nice reminder, too. That's so cool. I am curious, would you do your marketing? Do you include things about, like, the cheesesteaks and all that? Like, how much of your person, per your personal life, do you include in your marketing?

[B]

I keep the marketing for the cheesesteaks and the law firm completely separate. The only time that they're. They're not there together, but sometimes they're beside themselves. So a lot of. All right, let me back up. So, you know, all businesses and law firms, they sponsor stuff in their community and give away turkeys, all that stuff. Well, my firm, I'm actually ingrained with so many different entities in my community that I'm naturally a part of everything. So people get tired of hearing my name and seeing me outside, because I'm literally there. It's not just my law firm name. They're going to see me. And so I'm a part of everything. And since I'm a part of everything, people just go ahead and put Mark Brown Law Firm on it, and then they'll put Big Dave's Cheesesteaks on it also. So it's, you know, just the relationships I've built up. And, you know, all the people that I help, whether through the law firm or personal life, is just. I just, you know, make friends, build relationships, and that's how the cheesesteak and the law firm get marketed together. But I don't. Do. I try not to do cross marketing myself.

[A]

So you're the guy in Columbia, South Carolina, that, you know, you're driving down Main street and someone's like, hey, that's Mark Brown. He, you know, he also has a cheesesteak store. Like, like, like, you know, mainly he's a. He's a injury firm, and he's got, like a cheesesteak cheese store. Yeah, cheesesteak restaurant. Like, he. Like, you're that guy.

[B]

Yeah, it was cool at first, but now every time I'm out, like, if I'm out on dinner, people are coming up and, you know, so I'm at the bar, buying shots for people. What I like to do because concerts, whenever concerts come to town, I'm usually a sponsor. So I just get a bunch of tickets and I'll go to bars. And if I have good service or server, like, hey, you heard about the. The Cardi B concert coming? You want a couple tickets? Here you go. And I'm just, you know, just out with people. So I have a whole section, and it'll be all these people in my section, and nobody knows each other. They're just people I've met out, like, hey, let's have fun. So, yeah, that's awesome.

[A]

So one of the goals I think that, you know, like, every. Every business should really have is always just delivering more value than what the customer, the client is expecting. And I wonder. I. I do think it can be difficult whenever you're spending, like getting the formula right, whenever it comes to spending enough money on marketing to generate leads, but not so much that's going to take away from the back end of the ability to provide service. So how do you balance that to make sure that you are delivering more value than what people are paying you?

[B]

Growth. I'm a strong believer that is okay. If you get too much on your plate, buy another plate. So if. When we grow, once my paralegals are average, let's say cases come in, I assign staff to them. Once everybody's plate's filled up, it's time to hire more staff. Let's hire. Just keep growing it up. And then at the same time, we are semi selective with cases we take. We don't accept every case that comes in. You know, sometimes if a case, you know, doesn't meet our criteria, we'll refer it out to another law firm. So there's a lot of, you know, every. Every couple of months, there's another law firm opening with some young lawyer that's hungry in these cases. And I have more than enough, so I'm plenty happy. So here, take these. Here you go. Just. I just check in, make sure the client's being treated right. And, you know, so I try not to overfill my plate. Just buy another plate.

[A]

Gotcha. All right, so we only have a few minutes left, so I want to ask you this last question, okay? You've placed a lot of bets on yourself over the years. You've taken some risk, and it's paid off. I bet you have another big bet that you've been putting off that you've been wanting to place on yourself, and you haven't quite taken the Leap. And so it's just my guess. And so do you have a big bet you've been putting off and what is it?

[B]

I actually have two big bets and one of them I can't speak on, but the other one I can speak on and that is, you know, my law firm, I'm already in South Carolina and Georgia, Atlanta, Georgia. But they're, you know, Lord willing, next year there will be another state added and, you know, we're going to continue to provide great service across the country.

[A]

Love it, man. That's really good stuff. Thank you for doing this. Really appreciate it. I wish we had another couple hours to talk because it just, it's been fun. I'll have to have you back on to pick your brain about some, some. Maybe some marketing advice to give to some young lawyers and everything. But really appreciate doing this. But if people want to reach out to you, what's the way they can get a hold of you?

[B]

The best way to get a hold of me is social media. And whether it's Instagram, TikTok or YouTube is ATTTY period. Mark M A R C Brown. I try to keep it the same across all platforms so they can definitely reach out. I know we got to cut it short. One thing I have to say is to give you this podcast, your props. I've been listening for years, so part of what helped me get the courage to open up my own law firm was this podcast and hearing and listening to the great lawyers that you had on here and the fact that I was granted the opportunity to be on here with you, with you today. This is a milestone. Like I've achieved accomplishment and I look forward and hopeful. I'm hopeful that I'll help some other younger lawyers achieve their. Their goals as well.

[A]

Awesome, man. I love hearing that. Really appreciate you having you on. Thanks for being a listener for so long too. That's awesome. It's funny how many Mark Browns I know the exact same spelling I have that are listeners. It's. It's. Yeah, it's close to 10. It's. It's a wild. I can't imagine how much crap you have to go through trying to find a handle for different social media channels because Mark Brown is like such a common name. But anyways, but thank you for coming on. Really appreciate. I. I love seeing the success that you're having. You're just crushing it, man. So really appreciate it.

[B]

Thanks, man. I appreciate it, man.

[C]

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