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- [00:01]
Tyson Mutrix
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseup media.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law this.
- [01:21]
Matthew Kirbis
Is Maximum Lawyer with your host, Tyson Mutrix.
- [01:29]
Narrator
Today we're bringing you something a little different. We're featuring an episode where Tyson recently was a guest on the law subscribed podcast with Matthew Kirbis, who you'll also see on stage at Max Lacon this year presenting latent legal marketing opportunities with AI and subscriptions. In today's episode, Tyson and Matthew get into the evolution of legal podcasting, law firm branding and how technology is reshaping the profession. The they'll cover lessons from content creation to the value of niche marketing and what makes MaxLockcon such a collaborative space for law firm owners. Let's go.
- [02:03]
Matthew Kirbis
Tyson. Welcome to the podcast.
- [02:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Thanks for having me, Matthew. This is awesome. This is really cool. So it's been fun just chatting with with you beforehand, so. But really cool. I know you and I were on a panel a couple years ago. It was, it was ever since I I've met you, it was kind of followed you a little bit. So thanks for having me on.
- [02:18]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah. You know, friends of the show, answering legal. You know Nick Worker. Right. I think that's off the top of the head. So I'm pretty sure it's Nick. And with answering Legal team. Yeah. Something about law firm management or something or other. They do things every year.
- [02:30]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, yeah. I'LL have to take your word for it because I don't remember. It was, it was a long time ago, but. Yeah, that sounds right, though.
- [02:37]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. Yeah. So. So, yeah, and I had been listening. I came across Maximum Layer before that, but it was the first time I was on a panel with you, you know, when I, so I, I launched my practice, just for your information, Tyson, a little over three years ago. I've been practicing for around 11 years.
- [02:51]
Tyson Mutrix
Nice. Congrats.
- [02:52]
Matthew Kirbis
And so we'll, you know, like. Well, the thing is when, when you're, when you're getting ready to go solo or start your own practice, you. You do a search. I mean, this was before AI, right? I did a Google search. Now I ask perplexity, right? Like, give me step by step instructions on how to search.
- [03:06]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, then everybody's an expert too, right? Like, there's so many experts out there too, these days. So it's, it's a little combination of both.
- [03:12]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah, but it was like, it was like bar associations had stuff that was dated and old and not useful. Like, literally 10 years old. Like, at the time that I was thinking about going solo, like over four years ago. And then there was Carolyn Elephant stuff, My shingle and like Maximum Lawyer. And, you know, there was, there were some other podcasts and some other things out there, but not. And I remember because you and Jim, your audio game was mediocre back then.
- [03:35]
Tyson Mutrix
I mean, terrible. It was beginning. It was. No, it was beginning. It was terrible. That is what it was. Yeah. Yeah, it was awful.
- [03:41]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. And so, I mean, okay, so let's say Max Lockhan is coming back. It's Maximum Lawyers, you know. Well, you, you do, you do a few things throughout the year, but it's like a big conference where you have a lot of speakers coming. I'm a speaker, so I don't want to hide the ball too much for those of us joining live, because you and I could probably just chit chat for 130 minutes. So. So anyway, yeah, so the big conference coming up. But I remember, I mean, like, when I got started, like, my video quality was terrible. My audio was good because I did some podcasting and some voiceover work, but my video game was really bad and I keep them all live. Like, do you still have those old episodes, like, out there? If people wanted to go see how terrible you used to sound, they're all.
- [04:17]
Tyson Mutrix
So it's funny because all of the beginning ones were only aud. So I'd say the first maybe two, two years were all audio because we're I think we're at like 900 episodes or 800. We got a. I don't know how many. We got a bunch of episodes. And the, I think the first ones, the first recordings we had were on Skype. We had to download some. We paid for some little widget that would record it. And it was, you know, the audio qualities, but we didn't record the video. It was just audio. And then we went to like a conference, like, conference line that we would call into. And it was just. The audio was terrible. It really is. If you go back, the audio is terrible. And then we eventually, at some point we're like, okay, let's get, let's get serious about this. So we went to video and like now we're like, I, I do a lot of them in person. So it's, which is a, which is completely different than looking at a screen. It's, I enjoy it a lot. It's, it's a lot of fun, but it's, it's, it is interesting. I do sometimes think about like, like how we started and where we are now. It's way different. Way different.
- [05:19]
Matthew Kirbis
Well, this, this is what I'll say is a little bit of an audio snob. I was not happy when it was bad audio quality, but I was like, I was like, this is such good content. Like, I need to keep listening despite the bad audio quality. So I like, huge improvement. Like, and it's just for me as a listener, when you made that change.
- [05:40]
Tyson Mutrix
I bet, you know, I've not thought about this. What we could probably do is go back, use AI to clean up all the audio, and then it would probably sound a lot better.
- [05:48]
Matthew Kirbis
You know, I, I definitely go back sometimes and I'll remaster old episodes and release them. Like, re release them. Like if they're.
- [05:55]
Tyson Mutrix
Good idea.
- [05:56]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah.
- [05:56]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, really good idea.
- [05:57]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. And you know, it's still not as good as like recording with the high quality equipment, but the AI does wonders these days.
- [06:04]
Tyson Mutrix
It is like if I, I couldn't have, even if you had told me back in 20, I think 2015, 2016, whenever we started, that all of the tech would advance as much as it has in nine years. Because we just celebrated nine years last week and it was. I, I wouldn't have believed you. I just wouldn't have believed it because it's like you can now. You can a lot, you can plug a lot of this now into AI and, and all the editing is done. You can do the clips. Like, use like Opus 1 to like do all Your clips for social media. And it's, it's, it's a different ball game. It's, it's, it's fun to watch. That's why I think, I love about it, to me, like, you're a tech person. I'm a tech person. I love, I love how the AI is advancing and all the different tools we have available. It's, it's such a, to me, it's a really neat time.
- [06:49]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah. And, but, but I want to even bring it back to just the point that the, the content was so valuable that despite the bad audio quality, you and I could talk tech all day. I know.
- [06:58]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, absolutely.
- [06:59]
Matthew Kirbis
And, and, and we will like. And there's going to be tech talk. Like you guys talk tech on the Maximum Lawyer podcast and the Facebook group. And, and, and we're going to be talking tech at MaxLockheim. But like the, the point is the content is valuable, right? Just like whether you're a paid member of the, you know, of the guild. Right. That's what you guys call it.
- [07:15]
Tyson Mutrix
Or. Yep. Max Law Guild. Yep.
- [07:17]
Matthew Kirbis
Max Law Guild. Or you're just a listener of the podcast. You're in the free Facebook group. Like, all the content's super valuable, whether it's bad audio quality or not.
- [07:24]
Tyson Mutrix
No kidding.
- [07:25]
Matthew Kirbis
So, so my question for you, that is like, how do you, how do you keep it high quality? Like what. I can hopefully expect that myself as a speaker and the attendees of the upcoming Max lawcon this October can expect similar quality. Like, like how do you keep doing that?
- [07:39]
Tyson Mutrix
So it's a great question because it was something that Becca and I, we, we focus quite a bit on it where we, I mean, a lot of it's about being current. That's a, that's a part of it, but it's not always about being current. A lot of times whenever the. We try to focus on things that people are going to want to hear because there was. I. It's one. When you've done it this long, you kind of go in these different ebbs and flows. I think there was a time where we, like some of the content wasn't super great just because the. Sometimes we would have people on that would just pitch. We were talking about pitching, like people kind of pitching. Sometimes we'd have people that would kind of pitcher in the podcast. And so we a little bit over learn over time the types of guests that our people want. A lot of it's about listening to our people and what they want. I've always kind of joked about how Max Law has been this, like, this crowdsourced thing over times, whether, like, that's why it's always evolved. It's like went from just the podcast and a Facebook group, the conference and the guild and all that, uh, and then the quarterly masterminds. It's really evolved over time. Love is just like listening. But what I really try to do going into EP episodes now is we have something called an insight brief where we have all this information on the guests. I mean, a ton of information. We. I mean, we used to just show up. Yeah, we used to just show up. What are we going to talk about? You know, it was. But now I. What I do is I show up. I've got a full brief on them. I've got a list of questions. And I don't always. I don't always use the questions I use. So, I mean, I use them a little bit as a guide, but if the conversation is interesting to me, it will go down that route. Like, we'll just. There's been episodes in the last six months where I. We talked 30 minutes about something unrelated to the law. It was just. Because I thought it was really interesting. I think people would find it interesting. So I think a big part of it, though, is just being. Being prepared, but listening to. Listening to people, what they. What do they want? But. And then also just like, being curious. I mean, being curious is a good part of it too, because usually if I'm curious about it, I think that the listener's probably gonna be curious about it too.
- [09:38]
Matthew Kirbis
Well, you're also a litigator. How many depositions do you think you've taken?
- [09:42]
Tyson Mutrix
I couldn't even begin to tell you that. I've. I have zero idea. I couldn't even guess within a hundred, you know, it's. I have no idea. That's a good question. I don't know. I have no idea.
- [09:53]
Matthew Kirbis
Look, I mean, I've. I've taken. I've probably taken around a hundred because I was a litigator for eight years, but I didn't own. Always get to do the depositions in the first few years, you know, and I. I'll tell. Like, lawyers will ask me, like, I want to start a podcast, or I've got a cle called Podcasting for Lawyers, right? And I'm like, well, if you're. If you're a good litigator who conducts depositions, like, you're good at listening, you're good at asking questions, you know, take an interest in, you know, your. The deponent, you know, and like you could do it. Just, just don't, don't be as adversarial in a podcast interview.
- [10:25]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, it's funny you say that because I, I think being, doing the podcast has made me such a better, do such a better job on the, on my depots. It really has improved because it has taught me a lot about that, like the listing part of it and waiting and going where the conversation takes you as opposed to like being stuck to an outline, you know, that's, that that has helped me tremendously and just being able to think on your feet has helped quite a bit too in both ways too with the, with, you know, litigation to the podcast, podcast litigation. So there, there is a lot of crossover, I'd say.
- [10:58]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. And, and I, I bring that up also because, you know, some of my listeners might not know, like we just talked about Maximum Lawyer. You're practitioner, when you're practicing, you own your law firm. You know, you're running a legal practice and you have Maximum Lawyer. But, and my, my listeners are also the more business minded attorneys. Right. And so they are thinking like about the business structure. So you're not, I mean you're very involved. You could tell us about your exact role with Maximum Lawyer. But you mentioned Becca. You know, she's CEO of Maximum Lawyer, right?
- [11:26]
Tyson Mutrix
She's CEO. She runs, she runs the company. Absolutely.
- [11:29]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. Yeah. And so you're not like this is not your full time job, Maximum Lawyer, your full time job, practicing attorney, owner of a law firm. Right. So I just want to make that distinction there. And personal question for me because I like with law subscribed, you know, for growing strong for the last three or so years, people ask me, well, why are you, why are you still practicing? Like you should just be, you should just be teaching lawyers how to do this because I do like I, I have limited time to teach lawyers how to do what I do. But, but, but I do a little bit of that. But for me, like, I feel like I would lose all credibility the moment I stopped practicing law. And so I wonder if that's maybe part of the reason why Maximum Lawyer is still as high quality as it is, is you didn't give up practicing law to just coach lawyers on how to be better law firm ownership.
- [12:15]
Tyson Mutrix
I have pretty strong feelings about this. So yeah, I think that's a, that's a big part of it. One, I mean I, I enjoy both. Could I give up one over the other one and still make a good living? Yes, but I don't want to. I enjoy I enjoy thoroughly both of them. I enjoy them a lot. I love talking to law firm owners, but I also love the litigation side of, you know, injury law. So. But that is a big part of it. I think that that's what probably differentiates like, you, like people like you and me versus non lawyers that have their podcasts and all that. Not that there's anything wrong. I think there's a place for all of us. I've got the rising tides mentality, but I do think that that is what differentiates us. And so I think that does give us a lot of credibility. It's interesting because I've evolved over the years when it comes to the practitioner running the firm too. I have evolved a little bit. And that I do think, I do think you can successfully run a firm and say, let's say you have like a, you're successfully running the firm and then you've got someone else's like litigating files and all that. I do think that that is, it's definitely possible. You do a good job. But I also think that I use this example just the other day, so I'll use it again. Like Steve Jobs. Like Steve Jobs understood the tech. He understood the tech. He understood what, what people wanted. And I think it's really hard to run a firm if you don't understand your niche and you're not in the trenches at least a little bit to, to really do a great job. I, I do think you, you're going to have that disconnect. And it's hard to run a, a highly successful firm. I mean, I, you, I, I use John Morgan like I did the other day. John Morgan, he, he understill. He still understands injury law. He still understands it. He, he thoroughly understands it. He, he runs the business. You're not gonna see him in a courtroom. But he still thoroughly understands injury law. Injury law. Now, I do think sometimes people, they, they think, oh, I'll just run the firm and I'll just do the business stuff and that they don't need to understand what it's like to be a really good practitioner too. And I, I think that that is, I think that's flawed thinking. But to back to your, you know, your original, original question, that is a big part of it, though. I think it's important that I stay tapped into my firm still practice to really maintain what, what we want to do with Max Law.
- [14:29]
Matthew Kirbis
Now, I know you've got injury lawyers in the firm name, but your, your name is also still part of the brand of the Firm. So what have you been thinking about in terms of like a non. You know, you talk about having a niche. I call it niche. You know what, why have your name. You're having your name. A person's name in the firm doesn't help with that.
- [14:48]
Tyson Mutrix
It's really funny you say that. So, I mean, most people don't know the story, so it's fun to tell the story. All right, so we had, I had a partnership before, so I had a, I had, My firm had a partnership. We split up and I had my firm again and I had, I kept all the IP and I wanted to keep the logo and it was mf. Right. So it used to be Mutrix Law Firm. And then we, we had a partnership and the, the, the name was mf. The, the firm name with, with the, the last names. So that's why we went to Mutrix Firm Injury Lawyers and we put in Injury Lawyers because we wanted to be able to use that in Google.
- [15:26]
Matthew Kirbis
Of course, of course, exactly. Yeah.
- [15:29]
Tyson Mutrix
But to your more on point, we have, we have a name that we are going to test out that is not, that is not. Does not have my name in it. I've run it by a branding person. And so we're going to test that. I will not close the current firm until we've tested that out. But if it works successfully, then that will most likely it'll, it'll take over the current, the current day. But because I do think, I, I think that that is a smart decision, having more of a trade name than, than using the, the. My actual name.
- [16:05]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. Yeah. And I think finding like a niche trade name too is valuable because at the end of the day, my firm is Subscription Attorney llc and like, it doesn't really tell you anything other than you may subscribe to this attorney and which is true. And I have gotten clients who they think, oh, I specialize in subscription businesses, which I don't. But if you're in Illinois, I could still help you even if you're a subscription business. So I don't say no to those.
- [16:30]
Tyson Mutrix
Clients because I, it gives off that vibe though. It definitely does. Yeah.
- [16:34]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. And like, I am not a subscription compliance legal expert. In fact, I know some lawyers who are and I do follow those updates, you know, click to subscribe, click to unsubscribe, FTC regulations and all that stuff. Right. But like, even when, like most subscription businesses that want to hire me are services based, not products based. Right. And so to that extent, I know that, that part very well because I am in that industry myself personally. Not selling a subscription box or something like that. Right. Which I've had one of those clients. But I have found and I'm curious to know about your experience with the guild and the Facebook group. Like, good trade names for lawyers. Like I, I always point to Matt Stevens. Provider legal. Right. His. He's just subscription based legal services for medical and dental providers. Provider legal. Boom. There you go. Like that's. That's a prime example.
- [17:26]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I want to. It's funny you say that because I actually want to. I'm trying to pull this up because I want to make sure I got the name right. And I'm glad you asked because I actually wanted to give these names. So there's two people that came immediately to mind and one of them is Jordan Ostroff down in Florida and then the other one is Josh Rorschach. And so I. Give me a second, I'll pull up there because I know I've got Jordan's up here. I think his is freaking awesome. It's. To me it's the best one. It's. It's called. It's driven law. And all they do is car crashes and I think it's a beautiful day. So driven law. Now I think if, I think if it might. I probably put Driven injury law is what it. Probably what I would do. But driven law. And then the other one is Josh Rorsche. His is Onward. Onward injury law. And I really love that one too. His branding looks beautiful on it. I think that both of those two really. So his is onward Accident and injury law is the name of it. Full name of it. And. But driven. There. There's a lot though.
- [18:23]
Matthew Kirbis
Jason Foscolo has the food law firm and he's the employer. The food law firm.
- [18:29]
Tyson Mutrix
See, I, I like that one. But now here's what my, My question is. I don't know what that means though. What does that do? What does he do?
- [18:35]
Matthew Kirbis
He. A lot of like, like food stuff. He does subscription based legal services. If you're on the supply chain for the food, you know, when people are buying and selling food, you know, ingredients, other things, you know, the farms. Farms. You probably could call it the farm law firm too. Probably.
- [18:50]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. So there's. I had someone on the show. It's a family law firm. It was so forever after. What is the phrase? What the same.
- [18:58]
Matthew Kirbis
Well, that makes me think of estate planning. Right. Forever after they estate.
- [19:01]
Tyson Mutrix
No, it's not. That's not the full one though. Okay. So it's. It has to do so happily. It's. Happily ever after is like the term. So then. But the name of the firm is Happy Even after is what the name of it is. It's divorce. It's for divorces.
- [19:19]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, that's.
- [19:19]
Tyson Mutrix
Yes. Yeah. Happy Even After, I think is the name of it, which I thought it was a, I was like, what a beautiful, wonderful way to do it. I thought that was really cool. Although I asked her why she didn't do happily even after, and she just said she wanted it to be happy. So I, personally, I would have wanted it to be happily even after.
- [19:38]
Matthew Kirbis
Well, then there's, there's, you have to type more every time.
- [19:40]
Tyson Mutrix
That is true. And people may struggle with typing out happily and spelling it correctly. So she's probably right about it. But I, for my. It's like my own personal application. I want to be able to say happily ever after or even after, but. Cool. It's a beautiful name either way.
- [19:55]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. Yeah. Just, just looking at some of my past lists. 360 Estate Planning. Right. That tells you what it is. Learning and legacies, law, seed council, you know, so, like, you know, there are some good trade names out there. You and I aren't using them right now.
- [20:08]
Tyson Mutrix
No, not at all. I, I do wonder what you think about. So Pauca Bidis has a firm, a really successful firm out in North Carolina. And it's carry Estate planning is the name of it. And so it's for Cary, North Carolina. I, I. What are your thoughts on that name?
- [20:25]
Matthew Kirbis
I, I think it's genius. And here's why you don't. How many clients does he actually need? Depending on how big he wants his firm to be, for the revenue he wants to generate, for the money he wants to put in his pocket. Right. Because, like, for me, I could practice law in the whole state of Illinois. 80% of my clients are pretty local to me. Because people hire you because they know like, and trust you, especially stay subscribed to you. And so, like, based on the nut that I want to hit, like, like, local is great. If you could tap. If you have a niche market, you could tap into it. I think it's phenomenal.
- [20:56]
Tyson Mutrix
So I do too. I was wondering if you had a different thought, because a lot of people think that, oh, you're into a trade name. It must be more of a national thing. But I love it too. I'm surprised no one had it, actually, because Carrie is not like a, it's not like it's a super small town. It's not, not huge, but So I thought it was. I thought it was a great name. But then also it is something that you could expand with nationally if you had to. If you, if you really were wanting to go national with it, you could use that to go with national care. It's carry estate planning. That could apply to. People could think that's a name. There's probably the, the city carries probably in a lot of different states. So I thought it was a. I thought it was a brilliant name, too. And he was. His very first day of running his law firm was. He was on the podcast. So I always kind of monitor Paul to see how he's doing because he's always crushing it. He's just killing it.
- [21:39]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, well, focus, focus, focus. Right. Like, if you're focused and even on like a geographic region, I think that's incredibly powerful. But, and you know, just a reminder, this is a live show. Emmett Naughton just chatted in, in LinkedIn saying naming is hard.
- [21:52]
Tyson Mutrix
It is.
- [21:53]
Matthew Kirbis
Naming's hard.
- [21:54]
Tyson Mutrix
Yes. You know, it's funny because Jim Hacking, so we mentioned before, he's awesome at naming things. He's really good at naming things. It's. It's one. Some people just have a knack for it and it's. I do. I think it's really difficult. And you especially. There's ego part of it, too. People want to put their name in it because of the ego. But then also you want something that's different. You want people to know what you're going to do. Like subscription. Like. Like same thing with yours.
- [22:19]
Matthew Kirbis
Right.
- [22:20]
Tyson Mutrix
It's. It's hard to come up with something when in the legal space. I think people want to have it professional and they want their, Their peers to just, you know, not make fun of the name. I think that's part of it, too. But it's. There's a lot of. There's a lot of things that make it difficult.
- [22:36]
Matthew Kirbis
I have two domains that I don't use, but they redirect to my, to my firm, which is Kirby's legal service. Because sometimes. What if I did want my, my name in the brand? Right, right. So it's good to have that as a backup just in case for the right clients. Particular clients maybe want an attorney's name in the firm. Right. And then I have offload legal dot com.
- [22:55]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, I like that one a lot. And what would you do with that one, though?
- [22:59]
Matthew Kirbis
Well, so the reason I got that is I found. And I think, you know, this is depending on the type of lawyer that you're. I think that we can all benefit from networking with local chambers of commerce. Like, I, I do a lot of in person networking and I'm like, I'm always giving a pitch. You have 15 to 30 seconds depending on the group to like give a pitch and like say who you are and what you do. And I found myself using that. Offload your legal services to me every month so that you could get back to what you enjoy in your life and your business. And so I was like, offload legal?
- [23:24]
Tyson Mutrix
Like there's, there's something there.
- [23:25]
Matthew Kirbis
But then I, I did do a little bit of market testing with it and it's like, like, like offload. Like you're an off, like a, like a freeloader. Offloader free. Like, you know, so there's some negative connotation and you know, don't get me wrong. Like, like, but people who post pictures of their dogs on their website and they're like, if you don't think that that's fun and cool, like you're not a good fit for us as a client.
- [23:44]
Tyson Mutrix
Right.
- [23:45]
Matthew Kirbis
So I get that. But I don't know, I just didn't want to go all in on that brand. But I, I still keep it. I pay for the domain, so we'll see.
- [23:51]
Tyson Mutrix
I was going to ask you. So I'm trying to pull up my GoDaddy account because I've got them through. I've got multiple, I've got Used to be host Monster Hostgator and I've got GoDaddy as well.
- [24:00]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah.
- [24:00]
Tyson Mutrix
How many, how many URLs do you actually own?
- [24:03]
Matthew Kirbis
I think I'm in the 40s right now.
- [24:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. Because I, I, I don't know how many I have. It's a ton. I, I'd say I probably have at least 40 because I started just collecting them. I'm like, oh, I'll use this at some point though. My, I don't know if it's the, I don't know if it's the best is my favorite that I have because it's, I think it's funny. And I have a redirected to my site and David Haskins had told me to get it and I think it's hilarious. It is Big time Lawyers dot com.
- [24:30]
Matthew Kirbis
Oh, that's great.
- [24:32]
Tyson Mutrix
He's like, he texted me one day, he said hey, bigtime lawyers.com is available, you should get it. And I was like, oh, I'm gonna get it. And then he said, also bigtime baller.com. so I bought bigtime baller.com is I own that one as well. Which is funny. I don't know that.
- [24:46]
Matthew Kirbis
Okay, so that reminds me. I wanted to say sports teams are inherently local geography, but national. International brands. Right. So it could totally be done. Right, Totally.
- [24:56]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, absolutely. I. I'm 66 in GoDaddy is what I have.
- [24:58]
Matthew Kirbis
Okay. I'm at 48. I just checked. Here, here's one. I just.
- [25:04]
Tyson Mutrix
It's probably a waste of money for most of them, really.
- [25:06]
Matthew Kirbis
I mean, look, it's like 30 bucks a year, whatever it is, you know, it's like. And it's expensible. You know, it's a business. Absolutely. So. So I got just recently, my most recent domain that I purchased, which was available because I did a series with Lauren Lester called How to Run a law firm in 2025.
- [25:20]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, nice.
- [25:20]
Matthew Kirbis
So I got how to Run a law firm.com and it redirects to those 18 episodes that was available. That was available. How to Run alaw firm dot com. I know, I know.
- [25:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, that's incredible.
- [25:31]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah.
- [25:32]
Tyson Mutrix
So I was good on you.
- [25:33]
Matthew Kirbis
I was thinking I did that how to Run a Law Firm series with Lauren. I got to. I got to do that with other attorneys who are into that topic. So maybe future joint series for me and you, Tyson, how to Run a Law Firm.
- [25:44]
Tyson Mutrix
We'll post. I like it.
- [25:45]
Matthew Kirbis
That's the episode that'll be a lot of fun. We bashed it. So we did like five recording sessions that netted 1930-ish-minute episodes.
- [25:52]
Tyson Mutrix
That's pretty cool. That's a great idea.
- [25:54]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So then, I mean, I have things like blockchain, legal hub, crypto, legal hub, law in the metaverse, law in the meta. Like, I, you know, when the metaverse came around, I just grabbed up a bunch of those domains and they're all worthless now.
- [26:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Can I ask you about the meta stuff?
- [26:07]
Matthew Kirbis
Okay, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
- [26:08]
Tyson Mutrix
All right. I never got it. I never thought it was going to work out. Like, do you think in like 20 years, like, we're going to be like, in the metaverse, like, hanging out and stuff?
- [26:17]
Matthew Kirbis
We are right now, Tyson. It's just not virtual reality. This is metaverse, baby. Like, what we're doing.
- [26:22]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, well, I don't count this. This to me. This is different. Like, you know, I'm talking like, you put on the goggles, you're walking around. Do you think that that's going to be a thing?
- [26:30]
Matthew Kirbis
So. So I don't, I don't know if that is. But like, if we do this brain computer interface Thing like there'll be might be some like version of that. Like I always liked mixed reality more than I liked full virtual reality. Right? Like the Google Glass now the Ray Ban meta products, right.
- [26:45]
Tyson Mutrix
Like, like I have Ray Ban meta. They're, they're pretty cool.
- [26:47]
Matthew Kirbis
That's metaverse. I really think mixed reality is like a, it like counts as metaverse, but where the blockchain and crypto stuff comes in, which, I mean, look, bitcoin is on a tear. I, I only own some through like, some like, you know, I did something a while ago where if you spend money on here, you get rewards in satoshis.
- [27:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, that's cool.
- [27:06]
Matthew Kirbis
It was, it was a long time ago. So I have a little bit, but I've never actually bought it up. So I'm not really into that crypto space from a cryptocurrency standpoint. But I think with AI and copyright and like IP ownership and stuff, you can tokenize. You know, NFTS is not like a good term anymore, it's a toxic term. But you could have like non fungible tokens. You could tokenize fractional ownership and intellectual property that is pulled and leveraged in AI to generate images, text, whatever. So I actually think the underlying technology fused with AI might be a way to handle royalty payments in the future. And so that's the only reason I'm keeping some of these domains for crypto and metaverse stuff.
- [27:46]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I would love to hear more about that. So. All right, because you're going to have to explain to me how that works and I kind of understand it, but it's. So right now let's say we're going to use the NFTs for an example, right? If someone were going to do something with that NFT to pay that royalty, it's kind of like the honor system, right? Is that how it works?
- [28:08]
Matthew Kirbis
No, no, I don't think so. Because like the idea behind blockchains is that it's verifiable and it's on like multiple servers. Right. And so the idea of being that. And this is also like I'm a total novice at the underlying technology, right? Like, just like with AI, I understand it at a high level and I understand how to use it. I don't necessarily understand the underlying technology completely, but, but like what separates a cryptocurrency which is fungible, like, like a bitcoin could be exchanged for a bitcoin, a dollar for a dollar versus a non fungible token or just tokenizing in a unique format, like anything a Fractionalized anything is. It's wholly unique unto itself. Right. But it can be identified wherever it's plugged or pulled from or seen on because it's kind of just like these are just like complicated spreadsheets, right. With like long hashes with unique configurations. So, so the idea would be that, oh, this AI art that, you know, whichever model you're using, I like to use. I'm actually, I've tried to use a lot of them. I can only generate good images the way my brain works inside of Gemini's image creator, like that, like. So I'm using Gemini for that stuff. Like if it drew from some sort of training data and it was from multiple different artists, you know, I'm paying Gemini whatever I'm paying a month right now it's 14amonth as a Google workspace user, which amazing. Like, you know, some percentage of that goes, you know, pro rata to, you know, whatever amount that, that token that's attached to that art was used in this artwork. And it's all, it's a little bit on the honor system because it's going to be like, you know, the algorithm determined it was used, you know, and so it's a fraction of a fraction of a cent. But if people are generating these AI images all the time, right? And like, you know, fractions of a cent add up. It's not going to. No one's going to quit their day job and, and make royalties from AI generated art. Well, maybe.
- [29:57]
Tyson Mutrix
No, that. I think it's a great, that's a great explanation of it. I think that's really cool. Have you ever used Google's Flow?
- [30:03]
Matthew Kirbis
It's an open tab I've been trying to get back to.
- [30:06]
Tyson Mutrix
It's really cool. I mean, so you'll have to upgrade. It's like, I don't know, I think it's like 200 bucks a month or whatever it is. I feel like they're all getting done like 200 bucks a month. Yeah, but it's really cool now it's only going to give you. Because it's giving you the audio plus the video part of it. That's what's really cool. But it's like an eight second clips and so you can't do a lot with it and it screws a lot of things up, but it's pretty impressive.
- [30:29]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, I'm using VO3 actually.
- [30:31]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. Yeah.
- [30:31]
Matthew Kirbis
And, and I'm, I'm. I'm so. I think it might be the same underlying tech and what I did is I made, I I did a CLE for Legal Geek, and in there, I made up a. A legal tech company because it's mostly. It's a lot of legal tech companies at Legal Geek. And I made up this ad of this actual human, like, saying, you know, are you using this legal tech product? You should be, or no, it's like, is your lawyer using this legal Tech product? They should be. And the reason I came up with that. I'm curious to get your perspective on this. Pharmaceutical companies, they can't sell most of their drugs direct to consumers, to the people that will take the drugs. So they say, ask your doctor about our product. So why isn't any legal tech company, like, advertising. Ask your lawyer about this legal practice management system, right?
- [31:17]
Tyson Mutrix
Like, oh, it's interesting. It works.
- [31:20]
Matthew Kirbis
It obviously works. The pharmaceutical companies are killing it, right? Because when you have patients going to their doctor saying, well, what about, you know, Lipitor? Or whatever? Right? So I. Could you put me on that?
- [31:30]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, so that's interesting. But I think. I guess maybe the difference would be, is, like, the legal tech companies don't have that same barrier that the. That the pharmaceutical companies do. So they can go and they can hire, like, they can pay someone like you to, you know, you know, push their product and, you know, use the software, then you push it, which I think would have more influence. Is that. Not that I don't like it. Yeah.
- [31:55]
Matthew Kirbis
Have you ever had a client say, are you using, you know, Clio or My Case? Or, like, have you ever heard that?
- [32:00]
Tyson Mutrix
No one's ever even asked me what I use. They have. They. They probably assume I use paper files. I don't know.
- [32:04]
Matthew Kirbis
I mean, someone's asked me if I use Latera before.
- [32:06]
Tyson Mutrix
It's actually, yeah, Latera sounds like a pharmaceutical drug.
- [32:11]
Matthew Kirbis
This totally does.
- [32:13]
Tyson Mutrix
Ask your attorney if Latera is right for you. It sounds just like a pharmaceutical drug.
- [32:18]
Matthew Kirbis
I'm just saying I think there's something there. So. I don't know. I know you.
- [32:20]
Tyson Mutrix
You.
- [32:21]
Matthew Kirbis
You know, maybe you. You have, you know, connections with legal tech people, so keep that in mind.
- [32:25]
Tyson Mutrix
It's. I think it's funny either way, but.
- [32:28]
Matthew Kirbis
But I did it in vo, and it's amazing, and it's totally realistic. You know, you give it instructions. You know, person of this particular ethnicity is walking away from the camera, turns around and says this line. You have to spell it out phonetically so they actually say it the way you're supposed to, and it like. Like in a city, you know, and it's perfect. It's like, it's Unbelievable.
- [32:46]
Tyson Mutrix
So I've. And I've. I've. I've done quite a bit with VO3 and I. Have you found a good way. Like one of the way. One of the cool little tricks I learned when it comes to just prompting in general was to like the, you know, don't make things up, that just one little sentence has been pretty effective. But have you learned any like, little tricks when it comes to generating video that has been good for you?
- [33:10]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, I mean, you have to get in the mind of a director, right? Like, you have to think like a director. Right. You're like, you are, you are now director. Right. And you're shooting an eight second video. So you have to think of all the things that go into that. And so if you're not sure what that that includes, I would go to Perplexity Pro and I would say, I want to make a 8 second video in VO. I have to get in the mindset of a director. What are the que. What are the questions I should be asking? What are the pro like? I would just use Perplexity, whatever your AI tool of choices that your thought partner is to help you come up with what you want to give VO3. I still find less is more. And I said once, because I was experimenting and I said they should not turn around simultaneously. Because I tried that same example with two people where one person says half a phrase and the other does, oh, interesting. And it made them turn around. I said, don't make them turn around simultaneously. And it did. So like, like, just like with the text based stuff, sometimes if you said don't do something, it makes it do it. I think the video is still catching up with that.
- [34:05]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I, I swear I. I'm pulling up Per Perplexity Pro. Cause that's. I prefer that too. I think it's awesome. And do you ever. Have you used the labs at all?
- [34:14]
Matthew Kirbis
Yes. And I, I'm not a fan.
- [34:16]
Tyson Mutrix
I'm not. Because I've. I'm not either. And it's one of those things where. That's why I wanted to ask you in case you knew a better way of using it. Cause I was like, it's. I'm like, okay, whatever. Like, I don't really. It doesn't really fit any purpose for me and maybe it would work for someone. I even tried to have it script out a commercial for me. I shouldn't feel like you did a very good job, but otherwise, I love Perplexity. That's my. Of all of the AI LLMs. That one's my favorite.
- [34:39]
Matthew Kirbis
I definitely use it the most. Right. Like as it's replaced Google. I I what I a way that a good way to use Perplexity may be the Labs feature is you do a bunch of questioning back and forth in Pro or re or Research, and then you tell it to turn it into a slide deck. Right. And it's going to do an okay job. It's not going to be perfect because it's coding. It's like coding PowerPoint from scratch and then like giving you the slide deck. You know, you could tell it what colors you want and all that stuff if you really want to go that far. But I wouldn't even go that far. And then I would take that slide deck and I would put it into Gamma app.
- [35:11]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, Gamma's great.
- [35:12]
Matthew Kirbis
And then Gamma could like take that and turn into an amazing slide deck.
- [35:18]
Tyson Mutrix
Gamma is, is they might be like the industry standard when it comes to slide decks. Right now I, I'm about to pay to subscribe.
- [35:25]
Matthew Kirbis
Have you been paying?
- [35:26]
Tyson Mutrix
I have been paying. It's really good. The Now I will say the thing about Labs is, what's kind of cool is it will like, if you were to ask Chad GPT something and it's a pretty, let's say it's a pretty detailed prompt and you're asking for quite a bit, which is not the best way of doing it. But let's say you were. It's going to spit out just the information. But what's cool about Labs in Perplexity is it will give you the slides, it will give you the pictures, it'll give you diagrams. And I thought that was pretty cool. Now, the outputs are not fantastic right now. So maybe this is one of those things where we're just early days and in a few months it's going to be awesome. But I do think that that part's really cool where it does give you those outputs. It's just not quite ready yet.
- [36:09]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. And I was literally giving a presentation to some law students on how to use Perplexity when I refreshed the page or I opened up a new tab and opened up Perplexity again and Labs all of a sudden appeared. And I was like, wait, this is a new button. And I went back to my other open tabs and it wasn't there. And so like, I was there literally when Labs launched. That's awesome. And I so it's just so cool. So, yeah, it's not going to be perfect, but it's cool to experiment with. I'm sure it will improve. You know, part of me wishes they wouldn't do that because I want them to just focus on search and answer, which is what they're really, really good at. But I know they kind of feel like they have to compete with all the other features. Like in Gemini, it's called Canvas. Have you used Canvas at all?
- [36:46]
Tyson Mutrix
No, I'm not a big. I've used Gemini. I'm not a big Gemini user though, so I don't even know what Canvas is.
- [36:51]
Matthew Kirbis
It's just Labs. But it's in Gemini. It's the same idea. Yeah. So I think that came first. So I think Perplexity copied Canvas in Gemini for, for their tool.
- [37:00]
Tyson Mutrix
So you know how Google. So it's interesting, like how Google started and how the route it took and I don't know how much you know about the history of Google, but they, they basically.
- [37:09]
Matthew Kirbis
I've listened to the acquired podcast episode on Google.
- [37:12]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, fantastic. And how, how recent is that?
- [37:15]
Matthew Kirbis
That's pretty recent. That was like, like that might have been their last episode or two episodes ago. And you know, it's like three hours long.
- [37:20]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay. So my knowledge is from something, you know, I think it was from a Google Earn a podcast episode I'd listen to a while ago. But they had come to this fork in the road where they decided, okay, we could either charge for this, like a subscription base or we can go the ads route. And they chose the ads route. And a lot of this, a lot of the conversation was about how things would have been so much different had they gone the paid route and probably maybe how much better it would been. I think it's interesting because now, if you compare it now everyone's gone the other way. They've gone the subscription route for the most part. They've got a free version.
- [37:52]
Matthew Kirbis
It's almost like Tyson, the subscription model is the best business model on the law subscribed podcast.
- [37:58]
Tyson Mutrix
I like the way you did that full circle. But yes, maybe you're right. But I do find it. I do wonder who's going to win because Google won that race, right? They. They toppled Yahoo. They toppled being. You know, I don't think anybody ever used Bing, but Yahoo was like the king before they toppled everybody else. But I do wonder who's going to win this race. One of them is going to win the race. There's going to be the other ones that are going to be still around probably, but one's going to clearly win right now. Chad. GPT is. But I do wonder who's going to ultimately win this race.
- [38:29]
Matthew Kirbis
I actually think ChatGPT is going to be the Yahoo and AOL of it and right now unpopular opinion. But I think now don't get me wrong, it's still going to be incredibly valuable underlying technology, right? But it's a foundational. It's like so, so yeah, whenever I see somebody who's like using ChatGPT, I'm like, oh, that's like seeing like an aahoo or at AOL email because like I'm using all these other AI tools that are not. Now perplexity does let you pick to use the foundational GPT models from OpenAI if you want to. Right? So like, I think that tech will always be available because it's incredibly powerful. I just think that there are so many interesting specialized tools that are more useful for their specialized purpose that it's just like, like the law practice management softwares, right? Like, do you want an all in one solution that's mediocre or maybe even pretty good at like some things but not everything that it does? Or do you want the best breed and if it's priced right, like you're going to go best to breed every time?
- [39:27]
Tyson Mutrix
I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's, it's funny. I'm very curious to see if you're right about being the Yahoo, but I'm smiling because you touched on something that's always bothered me about legal tech is that there is not an all in one. It is. There is nothing that's all in one. And that has always driven me crazy. And I understand the reasons why. I completely understand the reasons why we don't need to get on into all of it, but I do. It's, it really is annoying to me that as lawyers we can't just come in, log into one software and everything we need is in that software. It drives me absolutely crazy that that doesn't exist. I understand the reasons why, but it still drives me crazy.
- [40:04]
Matthew Kirbis
So, so I believe what you're asking for though, like, like what I would ask for is a Roku, but for legal tech or SaaS solutions, right? Where.
- [40:12]
Tyson Mutrix
Yes, fine, yes, perfect.
- [40:14]
Matthew Kirbis
Give me that. Because you still maybe want to use Calendly and you maybe want to use, you know, Paxton or whatever your preferred, you know, legal AI tool is, but they're not going to, they're not building an all in one solution, but they're best of breed, right? But if I could sign into one software solution that I could bring in my favorite tech and maybe even have Them interact with each other inside that Roku, like for SaaS solutions. So you don't have to use Zapier, you don't have to use make for this best of breed tech. Is that what you're saying?
- [40:42]
Tyson Mutrix
That's probably why I like Zoho so much. That's why we use Zoho, because Zoho is kind of like the ro. That's a great, great way of putting it. That's kind of like the Roku of software is because it's got everything that you need to run a business inside of. We don't use everything that has, but we do use a big part of it. Can we talk about legal AI, like the, the legal research for a second?
- [41:04]
Matthew Kirbis
Well, well, so we got about 10 minutes left.
- [41:06]
Tyson Mutrix
Okay, you touched on that. I want to ask you about it.
- [41:09]
Matthew Kirbis
Okay. So. So, I mean you, you know it's hard to get the podcast host out of the podcast headspace, right? Because it is.
- [41:15]
Tyson Mutrix
I'm sorry.
- [41:15]
Matthew Kirbis
No, no, it's okay. And, and I will say we missed it from Emmett. He said my understanding of the NFT could be used to get a ticket for Max Locon. So thanks for that segue and it.
- [41:24]
Tyson Mutrix
We missed it. Excellent way to bring it back.
- [41:26]
Matthew Kirbis
We'll come back to Max lock on before we wrap up. But sure. Let's ask away on the legal stuff. Legal Text.
- [41:32]
Tyson Mutrix
I was so mad. I used to love case text. Case text was great. They had co counsel and then that that other big nasty company bought it and then killed it. And it makes me so angry because it was a superior product. Now you can't use case tax. So it's like I've got the point where I refuse to pay that other company. So do you. Is there a legal research platform that you or any of your listeners recommend?
- [41:59]
Matthew Kirbis
So even before they were a sponsor of this show. And by the way, link in the show notes to make sure they know I sent you, Paxton, like really has.
- [42:11]
Tyson Mutrix
Oh, I thought you were going to replace the other company.
- [42:13]
Matthew Kirbis
No, no, no, no, Paxton, I. When I went solo, I pivoted from litigation to transactional. And so I actually didn't need legal research as much as I used to. And so I was using Fastcase through the Illinois State Bar association when I really needed to, which was like two or three times a year.
- [42:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Sure.
- [42:30]
Matthew Kirbis
Like let's be real. Right? But then when Paxton came around, now it's like it's, it's not intuitive to the way we've learned to do legal. Legal research, but it is just so much easier. Right?
- [42:40]
Tyson Mutrix
We have, we have, we use Paxton. That's, that's something we use.
- [42:43]
Matthew Kirbis
But you can't do traditional legal research in it though. Right? Like, like, it's not designed to, like, look up this specific case. It's just not built for that. Because I think that's the old way of practicing law too.
- [42:54]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah.
- [42:54]
Matthew Kirbis
Realistically.
- [42:55]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, it's funny, our younger attorneys are asking for the old way. It's, it's kind of interesting to me.
- [43:00]
Matthew Kirbis
That they, law school, like, like Dennis Kennedy just had this like, LinkedIn viral.
- [43:04]
Tyson Mutrix
Kennedy, he's a St. Louis guy. Love Dennis.
- [43:06]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah, it. And, and so he just had this viral post about, like, like, which will change first, Legal education or the law firm business model? There's this great debate in the, in the comments section because, like, legal education is slow to change. They have to go through the accreditation process. Right. But at the same time, lawyers who just came out of that system, even the young ones are like, it's not like the way I learned to do it in law school.
- [43:26]
Tyson Mutrix
Well, those companies are like the pharmaceutical companies where they'll go, they, they dictate what happens in the law schools because they give some money and then they have the representatives there and all that. So that part will have to change before everything else changes. That's what will have to happen.
- [43:41]
Matthew Kirbis
Here's what I think Paxton is doing. That's really cool. And I've seen some other legal tech companies do this, and I'm in the process of hiring my first law student as a legal extern. Is, is they have the student pricing on there. So like, the student could sign up with Paxton, but I could pay the $35 a month, which is way more affordable than 200amonth. Right. So like, you know, like, I like that student pricing that's available, you know, but like I, the law firm, you know, will pay on that student's behalf as like a form of not really, not really compensation, but as a software expense for that student to use it. But it's, it's their account. Right. Like they're signing up because it's an externship. So it's only for a few months anyway, but then they get access to it to play around with it and use it in a full featured environment, which is what I need for them to be using. Right.
- [44:29]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah, I, I, so it's better than nothing. But I would say, I think it's, to me, a smarter move would be just give it to them for free. And I know that that would, that would suck. And there were, there will be a few that would use. Take advantage of that. Law firm owners that would take advantage of that. But I think, because you have to really, I mean, a lot of, A lot of law students are going to say that I don't have money to do that, so I'm not going to pay for that. So they won't. And I think the smarter move would be, okay, just give it to them for free. You're going to basically train them in this. That's why so many law students want it. Like, you're. You. You get it in their blood. And then that way by the time they get out there, they'll want to use it.
- [45:04]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, I know, like Paxton, some of these other legal AI companies have raised tons of money, but I don't think it's that much money, like, not compared.
- [45:12]
Tyson Mutrix
To the big ones. There's just not even, not even close.
- [45:14]
Matthew Kirbis
But, but I don't know. Are Lexus and Westlaw, are they like, are they giving away the AI products fully for free? I don't know that they are, I don't think.
- [45:21]
Tyson Mutrix
I think that the loss paying them per token, the loss overpay them, I think.
- [45:25]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, yeah, it's too expensive per token to give it away for free. I think so. So, yeah, like, maybe they could strike up deals with the law schools then. I, that, that might, that might be an option. I mean, look, for me, if I, like, I do talk to my alma mater, DePaul Law in Chicago, once a year, every year to the new incoming one LS about AI and legal tech. And I tell them, I'm like, you know, it's not, not everybody could afford it, but if you've got 20 bucks to spend, you know, or 200 a year, like, like, you gotta start using the paid version of these AI tools. Like, don't go, like when you go out, like, to like, you know, bar events or whatever events, like, and you might pay like 20 bucks or, you know, 40 bucks for drinks or food or something. You know, don't. And spend that money instead on like the paid version of these AI tools.
- [46:08]
Tyson Mutrix
Great. I think it's great advice. I don't know how many of them will take the advice, but I think it's great advice.
- [46:13]
Matthew Kirbis
They don't even know what AI is. Most of them, like three people raise their hands that they're using AI. It's unbelievable. Well, so we got about five minutes left. Let's talk about Maxwell Khan. How about Tyson?
- [46:21]
Tyson Mutrix
So I have completely derailed it because I know you want to talk about earlier, but I. I think that people might enjoy this, the other stuff a little bit more.
- [46:29]
Matthew Kirbis
Absolutely. Well, so I was going to say, if you liked this conversation between me and Tyson, think about coming to Maxwell.com because, like, this is an example. I have to imagine about the types of conversations that people are going to have, whether it's on stage or in between speakers or at the Guild programming the day before. Right. Like, this is the type of thing that people can expect to experience. Right.
- [46:50]
Tyson Mutrix
Yeah. For anyone that's never been. It is. The feel is way different than any other conference I've ever been to. The closest I've ever been to is. Closest conference I've ever been to that's similar is was Icon with infusionsoft, where there's just like this very positive field. Everyone's trying to. Everyone's looking to bring each other up. You're talking about, okay, what's working for you, what's not working for you kind of a thing. It's not, it's not a conference where we let people just pitch from the stage. We don't let them pitch from the stage at all. They're short, focused presentations, so you cut out all the fluff. So it's more of like the TED style in a way, where you have with, like, I'm looking at the agenda right now where they, you know, 20 minutes. 20 minutes. 20 minutes. That's how long. That's the longest that a lot of them have. We do have a couple speakers that have got a little bit longer. I think 45 minutes is the longest we have. But we, we keep it nice and tight. They're. Most of them are law firm owners or, you know, marketing people or management people that are going to come talk. Like, I'm looking at one of the ones I'm. I'm looking the most forward to is. I don't know if you've ever had Jeff Hampton on, but his title is how to double your law firm's revenue by building a brand on YouTube. And it was funny because we had, at the same time that we were booking Jeff and I didn't. I didn't know Becca was booking Jeff to come on the show. I, I had watched a video of Jeff. I, I. Because it was. I was on YouTube and I looked. It was a cool video. It was, I watched. It was 20 minutes and I watched all of it. And then next, you know, it was like a week later, I had Jeff on. I'd never seen him before. Didn't connect the Dots. I was like, holy crap. I just watched your video last week and it was. But it's things like that. It was just really cool. But yeah, the feel is just. It's a cool feel and we have a lot of cool things planned for the conference, which I'm pretty excited about. Is.
- [48:43]
Matthew Kirbis
Is that the guy who says he doesn't worry about what his episode notes say in YouTube? Was that. Is that what he said on the episode?
- [48:49]
Tyson Mutrix
I think Jeff did say.
- [48:52]
Matthew Kirbis
The same for every single because, like, he's not focused on that. He's focused on the long form content. Right. Like, I really liked that, that that's the approach I've been using. So when I heard him say that, I was like, great. I just got to keep doing what I'm not worried.
- [49:02]
Tyson Mutrix
I was shocked by that. I can. So, like, he. He gave. So he presented in the Guild a while ago, and he gave. Like, there's like 10 things you focus on. It was funny because we've been doing that with Max Law and it's made up an amazing difference. So, like, I think a lot of it is just simple stuff. And it's not. Some of it's not so simple, but some of it's just simple. But, like, apparently the video description is not one of the things you have to focus on.
- [49:25]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah, Just here's how to buy from me pretty much. If you like the video, here's how to buy from me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are some phenomenal speakers, like you said, even going back to earlier conversation about us still practicing law and doing the things that we're doing that help law firm owners. There's a lot like, I'm looking at some of these people have multiple businesses, right? Like, they are. They are managing partner at a law firm and they're running some other business that's related to improving your business or your law firm or something. So they are still practicing. Like, you just. There's so much to learn and gain from being a practitioner and eating your own dog food and like, actually doing the things that you coach people to do or suggest people do. And then the people who are not law firm owners still super relevant to being a law firm owner, like, with the subject matter expertise that they have that are not. Like, some of them might be former lawyers, but I know, like Chelsea Williams, for example, has been on the podcast, has been on law subscribed, you know, financial. Like, you got to have somebody there to talk about law for finances. Right. And it's absolutely essential. So really sweet lineup. And I do Say that. Myself included being there.
- [50:26]
Tyson Mutrix
Yes, you. Yeah. Because you're me on day one. It's interesting. So I think one of the. The one that's gonna be really fun is we're gonna have. It's gonna be the spouses that. We have three or four sets of spouses that are gonna be on the stage, and it's gonna be a panel that. We're gonna have a lot of fun with that one. So kind of think Dating Game, in a way, I'll kind of tease a little bit. So that one's gonna be kind of fun. There's a lot. Like Heather Olson, she's gonna be doing Turning Swag into Swagger, which is a great title. I know you're gonna be talking about some AI stuff, which is, like, really cool, but the CFO part you mentioned with Chelsea, it's. There's. There's something that lawyer, like, law firm owners, they don't like to talk about the. They don't like to talk about the financial part of it, which is, like, the most important part of it most of the time. So I think. Yeah, I think Chelsea's. She's fantastic. So that's gonna be a really good one.
- [51:10]
Matthew Kirbis
Yeah. Yeah. So. So, yeah, a little small. Small tease for. For my talk. So it's called. I want to make sure I say it right here.
- [51:17]
Tyson Mutrix
What.
- [51:18]
Matthew Kirbis
Of course, like, we're doing this live, and I. I'm trying to pull it up, and. And it's not coming up, but it's. It's essentially. It's the latent legal market opportunities with AI and subscriptions. Essentially is what it boils down to when I'm really excited about giving a talk at maxlock on is. Years ago, when I was just launching my firm, when I was just launching the podcast, I actually applied to be a TED Fellow and put together a TED Talk based on this idea. And now I've learned so much, and we've had the AI revolution, and I've updating that talk. So, like, I'm ready to go. I'm so pumped. I'm so excited. If people want to meet Tyson and myself in person at Maxwell, you go to maxlawcon.com amazing. It'll redirect really hard, really hard to get it. I mean, you talk about domains. That's one of the many domains you.
- [52:03]
Tyson Mutrix
We get that one early. We got that.
- [52:04]
Matthew Kirbis
I'm sure. I'm sure. And like, Khan is in conference. MaxW Khan and. But if you want Tyson and the Max Maximum Lawyer folks to know I sent you Use. If you're watching live on LinkedIn, there's the, the comment. In the comments, I put my link and in the podcast episode, look at the show notes and they'll know I sent you. It's okay. If you just go to Maxlan.com, it's okay. But, but at least that way, that way I could be invited back to future years. Tyson will know not only did he give a great presentation, but he helped send us, you know, 10 or 20 attendees.
- [52:31]
Tyson Mutrix
So, well, make sure you go to the link because I want to make sure that, you know, we can, we can thank Matthew for, for, you know, supporting us and everything and for speaking. So make sure you do use the link though, because, yeah, maxlocon is easier that, you know, dot com's easier to say and remember, but use the link, it's easier. You're probably listening to this. If you're watching on LinkedIn, just click it right now. But if you're like listening, go to the show notes. It'll be in there.
- [52:51]
Matthew Kirbis
All right, so, and then if, remember to stick, stick around for LinkedIn lag. But if people wanted to follow up with you, reach out, listen to stuff, subscribe, where do they do all the thing, tell them all the links.
- [53:01]
Tyson Mutrix
Either they can go to Maximilian.com or Max LawGuild.com or just you can follow me @LawyerTyson on all the social medias. So I'm on LinkedIn as well. So Tyson Utrechts, but I'm on at Lawyer Tyson, all the other stuff. But really, Maxim, lawyer.com is the easiest way to find me.
- [53:16]
Matthew Kirbis
Sounds good. All right, well, we'll stick around and thanks again so much for coming on Law subscribe live.
- [53:20]
Tyson Mutrix
Thanks, man. Thanks, everybody for watching. It's awesome.
- [53:36]
Narrator
Hey, I've got a question for you. When was the last time you drove over to another law firm near you, sat down over lunch and traded every business tip you've got? Talked about what's working, what's not, and what to do next? No, see, that's what Maxl Khan is for. It's real conversations with law firm owners who are actually doing this building, leading, scaling, and willing to share what's working right now. You could keep doing it alone, but let's be honest, it's slower, harder, and way more expensive than getting in the room and shortcutting the learning curve. As of this recording, we've got 2020 seats left to this year's event. Skip the guesswork. Go to maxlacon.com and grab your ticket before they're gone.