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Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. That's right. No long term commitments tying you down.
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So what are you waiting for?
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To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseupmedia.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law
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this is Maximum Lawyer with your host Tyson Mutrix. Lexley. When a law firm owner, they wake up, they're already feeling behind what's actually happening in their brain in that moment.
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C
Well, when we wake up and we're already feeling anxious, we're just already in the state. It really starts in the nervous system which is affecting the brain. It's a part of the nervous system that is what we refer to as fight, flight or freeze. And unfortunately a lot of us are living in that, just a really chronic low state of that. And when we're in that state, there are some bonuses when you're under deadlines, right. There's some adrenaline that gets dumped in and cortisol that makes you go, I can get it done. I sometimes have clients say I get my best work when I'm under the deadline. Yeah, you think you do, right? There is some part that biologically that supports you there. But unfortunately what we're doing is really living there chronically. So when we're waking up in that state, we're actually already very low energy, very low state of what we call coherency, like a scientific term of what's happening in your body physiologically between your heart and your brain. And in an incoherent state, we're really low performing. So you are behind you are thinking that you're behind, and actually, physiologically you are. And it will impact immediately what's going to unfold in that day.
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B
What is that reactive state of. To decision making really, how does it affect your performance throughout the day?
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C
So in that state, we are. We don't have. I like to. When I teach to law students, I say, you're just not that smart when you're in that state. Right. Because we don't really have access to the part of the brain as lawyers that we want to have access to. So all tapping into the cognitive skills that we want as a part of the prefrontal cortex, which has the things like the part that's responsible for judgment and strategy and helping us to make critical decisions, to see the big picture and not just have tunnel vision, which is usually when we're in that state, we just pick the thing that's right here. The most immediate thing that we think, well, is, is really the only choice that we see. So when it. As the day is unfolding, it affects everything you do as far as decision making and how you show up. So I want you to think of it like this. When you wake up and you already feel behind, you really are, and I'm going to use the word energy. We can think about energy as our state management, but you really are like an energy system. When we are looking at measuring heart rhythms and measuring brain waves on an eeg, we're really measuring energy of the system, right? The output that is happening. And every. From moment to moment, you're spending energy in some way. And every moment, you're in some emotional state. Every single moment. So right now I'm excited to be here. It's a fueling kind of energy. It feels good, right? It feels creative. If I am in an energy, if I'm in an emotional state of anxiety, we know that physiologically that impacts and drains the system of energy. So from moment to moment, you're either recharging, you're fueling the system, or you're draining the system. So if we wake up and we're already feeling behind, and that is a feeling really of just being low energy. And if you want to think about how that affects the day. Tyson, when you're low energy, how do you handle. How do you handle stressful situations?
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B
Reminds me of Formula one, where if you're on the straightaways, they are split, they're kind of sprinting, and they're using up their battery, and whenever they're, they're. They're kind of on the Corners, they're charging their battery. It's what makes me think of that. Exactly. So I think it's kind of interesting. Yeah, that's I, I can easily connect with that.
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C
Right. And, and what we want to do is, is start to look at. And what I teach people are daily practices that help you to refuel but also teach your system how to recover faster. So you know, the brain has neuroplasticity and that's a great thing because we can learn to operate differently than the way that we've been operating. And there are simple things that practice that you can do on a day to day basis that you can think that are fueling to the system and then there are, that also help you and sustain that. So when I work, you know, I was a former trial lawyer, I experienced burned out. I know what it's like to push really, really, really hard. And I can remember it was probably the first jury trial that I had with my, with my dad. I was very lucky. I got to practice a lot with my dad. And I remember, I don't remember the specifics of the case or anything like that. I remember the verdict was successful and we should be excited. And I remember saying to him, I don't know, I feel like I'm depressed. And his explanation of that was that's because it's so intense. You focus for so many months preparing for this and then all of a sudden it's over. Well, now that I know what I know about state management and energy management, he's correct. But it's also that that takes such intense energy to get through that. Then when your system starts to reset right after you feel really, really drained. And often the times a worn out nervous system results in like a depressed feeling because we don't have energy. So what I do is I, what I try to get people to focus on. There are practices just like when you go to the gym every day, day or you work out every day for your body. There are practices that you can do for your body and your mind that help build resilience that, that help you when you're in trial or in, you know, trial's a big example. It could be that you're pushing through a certain deadline right when you're doing that and you're really intensely focused. I think it is, it helps you to be able to recover faster. But I think too that there has to be looking at the times when you're talking about the, you know, the straightaways being full out and the curves recovering. We also have to look at that the recovery protocol is just as important.
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B
So I'm really curious, because I'm guilty of this myself. Why. Why do so many lawyers feel like their brain just never shuts off, even when they're at home? So I could be at home with my kids. I could be at the soccer game with my kids and my wife, and we could be watching, but I'm like, my brain is firing. It's going like, why is it? Why is that?
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C
It's because you've not really totally shifted the other part of your nervous system, which is the part of the nervous system that is rest and recovery. So the part of this fight, fight or freeze is actually the part where you step. You step on the gas pedal, right? And you're going fast and you're firing. And it helps us when there are deadlines. It gets the thing that gets us out of bed in the morning to do the thing that we don't want to do. Right? But the other part of the nervous system, it is more. Is very important to learn how to tap into that part of the nervous system, which is the part about rest and recovery, when we're always firing. We actually have not learned how to reset the system to be in the place where we can be in more stillness. Unfortunately, with the way that the world is designed today, digitally, all the distractions that we have, we're actually addicted to that. The brain going, going, going. And like, you know, the different distractions you have from the email ping to the text being little bits of dopamine hit. But what happens with us neurologically as a result of that is that we actually become desensitized to dopamine. And so our systems require more and more stimulation to feel the motivation. Does that make sense?
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B
It does. I am curious, though. How do we. I guess, how do we build in more of that restoration time, that time to rest? Like, how do we build that into our lives? And is there a right way of doing it, a wrong way of doing it?
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C
Well, it's like looking at everybody's different. So there's a way of looking at first is just having awareness. Is the first, very first step is like, where are you energetically? So I like to think about doing an energy audit, and that is literally keeping track of the things that you do. So when we have teams, then when we have them, track their time to see how they're spending their time so we can increase productivity. We're also looking at tracking your time and everything that you do and asking yourself, when you look at it does this thing fuel me or does it drain me? And you'll be really surprised of how much of what you're doing is really draining you. So first that gives you awareness because then it's, you know, we're going to ask you to do something to change. And we usually need a why behind to have the motivation for that. Then it's looking at protecting and doing simple practices that can help you. Like I said, to start to wire your system to be different. If we're always wired to be on, we can train our system to be in a different state. So I said that every moment, from moment to moment, we have, we have emotion. There's some emotional state that we're living in. When I do talks with lawyers and the room is an audience of lawyers, I'll ask them, what's your emotional home in the last week? What are the top three emotions that you had? What would that be for you, Tyson?
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B
Probably, I don't know, coaching. Like, there's like, things like that that I like, really like.
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C
And when you're coaching, the emotional state that you're in is.
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B
It depends. It's. It depends. It depends on if we're winning or not. But if I'm, if I'm coaching that I'm. Then we're in a good state. If we're not, then I'm kind of in a pouty state. But that's, that's, that's usually my default.
- [11:38]
C
Yeah. So when I'm looking for emotional homes, usually what I hear, the first thing I hear is that the number one state is like anxiety. And then there's some that sometimes I hear a lot from lawyers is frustration is another one, like even going into anger. And then, you know, maybe some people have a gratitude practice so that they have a state that they're in gratitude at times. And those might be their three. We actually can train the system to be in the. Have our emotional home be different. So to be more centered, to be more collaborative, to be peaceful, to be creative, as opposed to the emotional home being anxiety. So when you're asking for what are some of the things that we can do, it's, it's looking at what is going on with you and, and what are the most draining things. And then where can you build in simple practices that help you to restore. So the number one resistance I have from people is I don't have the time. Well, you, you, you can't afford not to have the time. But I'm not asking for you to take a hike on A mountaintop and sit and, and, and meditate right hours at a time. Simple practices. So breathing practices. Five minutes of a breathing technique that slows your system and puts you in a part of the nervous system that's a rest. And recovery is very restorative and helps you to move from an incoherent brainwave state, which is like high beta when we're really anxious and trying to push through something to one that goes drops into a more creative, focus centered state. So breathing practices are really, really easy, simple ways to shift that you're. The more you do them, then you actually train your system to recover faster. But we really have to look at, if we're talking about emotional states are the impact on our performance, then we also have to look at what fuels those emotional states. So I like to think of it as building the environment for your internal operating system to be the highest operating system that it can be. So we have to look at the beliefs that we have, the stories that we have about what's happening in our lives from moment to moment. Because those stories, those beliefs are fueling the emotional state and they actually really define the way that you make a decision, the different lens that you have on something. So if I'm really negative, if I say today I have to do this and I really start to tell my story that it's going to be hard, it's going to take a lot of time, it's going to be exhausting. Well, goddess, I'm already exhausted just even thinking about it, right. And actually physiologically my whole system has shifted to that which actually will make it a harder thing to get through. Whereas if the story is I get to do this, I have the opportunity to do this, this is going to be a learning experience. I'm going to come out of this and I'm going to feel good about it. Totally changes the energy that you bring into the system. So looking first, the first part of that internal operating system is having awareness of the story that you're telling yourself. The second part is really the state management, which is what we're talking about. Emotions that impact our physiology which impact performance. I think I listened to one of your podcasts, Tyson, and you were talking about that health was going to be the, the, the difference in the future of success in law firms. And I think it's the difference in the future of success and leadership. And I think it's true. We have available to us all these different ways to upgrade our law firms, right from different types of case management systems to the AI and the way that we're using it. What I'm asking you to think about is how do you upgrade your internal operating system? How do you upgrade your brain? You how that's how it's going to be. The difference in performance. And you were using the term health and I think of it as health or energy and well being because health is, is all encompassing, right? It's first our physical health and then we got to look at our mental and our emotional. And the mental emotional is all about the energy. So learning to manage your state is which is managing your energy is the key to success. The belief that pushing harder and hustling more is the thing that's going to get you to the next. It will, but it's going to cost you and you're not going to do it as fast as someone who knows how to manage their state and their energy and leads that. So I think the most important thing that we can do as leaders is to lead and teach well being. And I don't know about you but when I became a lawyer, you know over 30 years ago nobody was talking about that and we were just pushing harder and as a result 5 years in I really did have like already as a burnout and exhaustion and we haven't really improved on it. There was a study done in 2024 that shows that you know, associates are leaving sooner out of law firms used to be about five to six. They're leaving three to four years in and it's not because of compensation. That's only like fifth on the factors of why people stay. It really comes down to the culture that you're leading and it has a lot to do with the culture of if you are leading well being and that's performance. So learning to be able to regulate your nervous system. All this that we're talking about and breath is the first way breathing practices is the first thing that will shift you from one side of your nervous system to the other. But beliefs comes in and learning the state management so that you're. When you're under pressure, you're doing your best thinking as opposed to your worst thinking. When you're just under the pressure, perceiving it as threat. Then the third part is really understanding and managing what your attention is. So where is your focus where you direct your mental energy. So that is the most monetizable cognitive resource that we have is our attention and that comes back and it all ties together back. That first step in looking at belief and story has a lot to do with how we Focus in the lens on what is happening. And then I think the last thing that's really important in this internal operating system is what we just mentioned about is recovery. Because you can't keep high performance without having recovery as a part of it. And that's the whole, ties the whole thing into how do we teach well being and lead that. If you are a leader that's coming in and you're anxious and you're responding that way and you're doing that in front of your team one, you're impacting them, you're making them anxious. And we absolutely know that anxiety is low performance state. And so we have to learn to first have the awareness of where we are and understand that we have to teach. So what we're teaching teams to do and leaders to do is for, is these well being, these energy practices and then we teach the team and then we create team building exercises around these practices. And what happens is when law firms invest in well being programs because there's been a real drive for that, especially from the American Bar association in the last, you know, six to seven years of really asking law firms to do that, the attrition rates are measurably like improved. It is the success on being able to keep people and keep them long term is very, very high when you put those programs into place.
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B
It's funny you say that we just started our MF wellness program year yesterday because that was our last quarterly meeting. People wanted an actual wellness program. We have other things that we, we build in where we'll pay for gym memberships and things like that, but that's a little bit different. I, it's, it's. I want to ask you a question about charging versus draining activities, but I, I just want to make a reference to a conversation I had with my daughter this morning because we were on our way to school and she was like, oh my gosh, I have PE today. I don't want pe. It's gonna be terrible. And I said, well, here's the great thing. You have a choice as to whether or not it's going to be a great experience for you or it's going to be a terrible experience for you. And so you can decide now whether or not you're going to really, you're going to enjoy PE and you're going to get something out of it or you're, you can make the choice now as to whether or not it's going to be terrible. And it was interesting watching, I was watching her in the rear view kind of like, process that. Oh, it's. And she could tell. She's like, oh, okay. And she's. She's very receptive. She choose like. Like, it's one of those things where she'll listen to the things I'm saying and kind of. And adapt. So I think it's always great. But I want to ask you about charging activities versus draining activities, because I think that there are some things that might be deceptively draining, although they might feel like they're charging. So I'll just use. I'll pick on scrolling. A lot of people will scroll and they'll probably think, oh, this is. I'm just relieving some stress here. I'm just gonna scroll and I'm going to charge my battery. Are there some other things that are deceptively draining, even though they may feel like they're charging your battery?
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C
Yeah. So that example of scrolling is the reason why it feels like it's charging your batteries, because you're actually getting a little bit of a dopamine hit from that. But that's also the problem because the more you do that, the more you got to do something to actually feel stimulation, to feel some kind of motivating. And so it becomes that you become desensitized to that. You know, it's interesting. People think about, well, when you're really stressed, obviously that's draining. You don't have to have a high heart rate for it to be a draining activity. Boredom, big key for me. I can't stand to be bored. It's actually very draining on the system. And when you look at it and when you're looking at what happens with your heart rhythm, variability in your brainwave state, it actually becomes very incoherent and so not energy fueling. I think that things like doing the same thing, chilling out on Netflix, obviously activities that we think socially are okay and seem like to relax us. Things like alcohol, you know, and it's so much accepted socially, but actually it's something that's very draining on the system, very depleting. Even just one drink. The. What happens physiologically, it's very deceptive. You get a little bit of a relaxing, but then your system actually is a draining or depressive response from that and needs more to feel it the next time. You know, things like that.
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B
How is that different from something like a cold plunge? Because I. I love cold plungers. I think they're amazing. I mean, is. I guess, how is that different? Like, can you get used to that feeling to the point where, like, it's no longer like filling you back up, if that makes sense.
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C
Yeah, I think, you know, so the cold plunge does something different on our system, but actually is a, it is a, it is a bolt of energy, but it's also, you know, it brings in. Because it brings in some adrenaline, cortisol. Right. So I think that sometimes, sometimes we think just like when I was telling you that one of my clients is like, well, I don't know. I actually do better when I'm under the deadline. I get more work done. You think you do, you think that's gonna. You then that gives you more energy. But it's really because you're with these adrenaline and cortisol that's spiking so that you have that. But that actually is very draining on the system. So when someone comes to me and one of the things they're complaining about is the inability of sleep, I know that they're living in that part of the nervous system. A fight or flight. Because cortisol spikes and dumps in our system are long lasting. So if you can't fall asleep, you have the inability to stay to sleep. I'm telling you that is a result of what you think sometimes feels good to the system. But it's, you know, because it's giving you the umph. The energy to get through it is actually very draining.
- [24:16]
B
You know what's interesting, I just, it's interesting that we're talking about this because I, I just listened to a podcast with Andrew Huberman and Chris Williamson and they were talking about cortisol and we have this view that cortisol is bad, but you actually there is healthy cortisol that you should have and your, your. As you start to wake up in the morning, as you're sleeping, you start
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to get more and more cortisol.
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That's actually what wakes you up. And having a little bit of cortisol from something stressful like working out in the morning is really, really beneficial. Afternoon cortisol however, is really bad. And I think that's a really interesting thing how you can sort of game your day maybe artificially almost injecting some cortisol, some stressors into your early morning and try to avoid those stressors in the afternoon. I think that's all that's kind of really, really interesting.
- [25:08]
C
I listened to that same podcast that was really. It's really fascinating because I love to work out in the morning. It gives me so much energy. But sometimes I like to do it in the evening because it's a de. Stressor and then I'm like, oh, wait, but he's right. That is sort of a cortisol. Like I hadn't thought of it like that. So it is. So it's about structuring your day. When we say these practices, there are things that you can do that will give you more energy, but then there, there are ways to reset your system so that you can recover. So cold plunge gives you energy, right? Working out in the morning. Huberman talks a lot about, you know, getting the sunlight first and first, you know, 15 to 20 minutes that you're awake and the sun's not up when I wake up because I'm a morning from very early morning person. But getting it as soon as you can gives a natural cortisol. But our problem is, is that we are so stimulated all the time, and most of us are living in a chronic low anxiety state. And we never shift to the recovery part of the system. And so that's why you want to not just think about not working out intensely in the afternoon. But what are the things that you can do that can restore? So things like having, like the breathing practice is the easiest one. A gratitude practice, very simple. Three minutes of gratitude writing will shift your system into recovery mode because gratitude has been proven scientifically to be a restorative emotion. So if we're living in emotion from moment to moment, you want to be thinking about what's your emotional home? Is it one that normally drains you? Like when most people, lawyers, I talk to, say anxiety. What is an emotional state that you can learn to tap into in the practices to do that? So there's things like gratitude practices, doing Heartmath Institute puts a lot of information out about the impact of emotions on performance. And they talk about doing a simple practice and we can all do it right now, while I'm talking of bringing awareness to the center of your chest and then just following your breath in and out of your heart space and then slowing it down and then just doing a minute of gratitude while you follow your breath. That practice will shift your system scientifically from the part of the nervous system that's spinning energy into the part of the service system that's conserving it. And it will bring you into a coherent state. So let's bring it into being a leader in a team. What if you took. It's a great way to start meetings to ask people to share a win, right? What's going great? What's something we could say you accomplish? You're immediately shifting people in to that part of the nervous system just by changing the story of how you start the meeting, which also creates this collaborative energy with the group that is sharing that which then puts us in a collaborative energy as we tap into talking to about more substantive matters with clients. So that helps us to be in the problem solving part of our brain and more creative.
- [28:26]
B
That's how we do our. Sorry, that's. That's how we do our huddle every morning is we start with a win. And it's always really helpful. I'm glad you're. This is actually where I wanted to go next. I'm glad you're. You brought this up because talk about how a leader's internal state, whether that's calm, whether that's reactive, whatever, how that actually shows up in, in their team.
- [28:49]
C
So when we're talking about every moment I'm in an emotional state. Okay. And whatever state I'm in, you can pick up from me. And science has shown this that our nervous systems pick up with the nervous systems of other people of what's going on with them. So when I was trying cases, I just thought that I, I used to say I could just read people really well. Now what I know about neuroscience and emotional states, I know that we actually really do respond to the nervous systems of other people. I, I did this really fun thing with my teenager a couple of years ago. He has a chocolate lab and you know, she can go crazy and I can take and put my hands on key parts of her body which could correspond to us too, that had to do with their nervous system and literally just send a little bit of calm. And so I had him riled her up and she's running around the room, she's going crazy. And then I called her over to me and I did this and I just breathe that I became really, really calm and she just melted in a puddle. And he said, how did you do that? I said, well, actually that's something you want to do right before you start a test, right? You want to like tap into being really calm. So I taught him a breathing practice and how to do that. So heartmath that I mentioned before, that's done all this study on emotions and physiology, did this really interesting experiment and, and you know, we all know like you can, you can walk in a room and if two people are having an argument and they, they become quiet and you don't hear what they're saying, but you can pick up the energy that something's happening in here, right? So what is actually happening is that if you're really anxious, then your heart rate variability, which is different than just heart rate. It's like measuring the differences between the speed up and slow down of the heart. Heart, heart beats. So the heart rate, when they can measure heart rate variability and you can see when it, when it's very, when you're in a very coherent restorative state, it's really consistent waves and your brain is doing the same thing. Okay. So they taught people, they did a research study where they taught participants to do the technique that I just described to you where you do heart focused process breathing and you do gratitude because it's a very fast way to get your heart rate variability to become coherent. So you become in this restorative, energetic, energetic state. And they put, they took four people, three of those people had been taught to do that method. One person didn't have a clue what was going on. They put them all in a room together and they hooked them up to heart monitors that are measuring heart rate variable variability. When they start, all four of them are incoherent. They signal to the three that know the practice to do the heart focus breathing. They do the heart focused breathing. And when their heart rate variability on their monitor starts to become coherent, the fourth one does. And the fourth person doesn't know anything that's going on. So back to your question. If I show up and I am really grounded and calm and centered, then I impact the person that's with me. I can help them. They automatically will pick that from me. If I am very anxious, I don't even have to speak. You will pick that up from me energetically. It's just because our nervous systems and that that experiment is showing that our nervous systems respond to the nervous system systems to other people just like that lab did to what my nervous system was doing to hers. So I use this not just with, when we think about leaders showing up calm and grounded, you help your team to become more coherent. And coherency in a team always implies collaboration, harmony and efficient use of energy. And if we're inefficient use of energy, we're higher performing. Less mistakes, mistakes, less errors, faster response times, able to creatively problem solve. When we're incoherent, we don't have the access to that. So the one thing I do know is that that impacts not just with your team, it how it helps when you're one on one with a client who's very anxious. If you can stay calm, you will impact them. If you become anxious with them, oh, then we're off to the races, right In a courtroom. It's very, it's a power tool for a trial lawyer to know that if you can stay grounded and centered, you're the most powerful person in the room because we unconsciously want part of that. I want to follow the person who's grounded and calm, the person who is anxious, and we could say triggered, but anxious is someone who I unconsciously will withdraw from. So I think it's a, it is a superpower for us as, not just as leaders, but if you're a lawyer and you're trying to impact others, it, it will, people will more likely follow you. They're more likely to be collaborative. They will connect. If you're connected to me, we work better together. That's how it brings it all back into as a leader.
- [34:14]
B
So it's funny, it took me a while to learn that about myself, but I started to recognize that if I were, if I go into a hearing worked up and pissed off about something, and I, and I sort of react that way, I will more likely than not lose that hearing or whatever motion that is. But, so I have sort of taught myself to go in. Even though I get worked out about, maybe I'm pissed off at the other side, whatever it may be. But I'll sort of, I'll force myself to remain calm and I'll keep my, the tone of my voice low, even though internally I might be fighting something back. But I, I, I, I've noticed that I do get far better success whenever I've remained calm. I let the other side get worked up, and I hope that they get worked up. And it's, I, I can just tell you from my own anecdotal experience that that is spot on, that anytime I'm calm and I, and I, I teach our associates the same thing. Don't get worked up. Just go in calm, remain calm whenever you like. I, I just did this last week. There's a motion I should have easily lost, and I just went in. The other side was really worked up. The judge sided with us and it was, I never should have won the motion. Should have never won it. But just remaining calm.
- [35:22]
C
And it's, it's the remaining calm one that people, like I just said people are more drawn to you, right? They'll listen to you more in that state, and that might be part of it. The other thing that happens, Tyson, is that when you're in that state and you stay, stay coherent because scientifically that's what's happening within your system, then you're Able to be in the part of the brain that actually can give you the creative out of the box argument. So all of us can relate to being in some situation, a conversation, an argument, et cetera, whether it's in the courtroom or with your spouse. And a couple of hours later when you're taking a shower, you're like, darn, why didn't I think of saying that? Well, you didn't think of saying that because you couldn't access that part of your brain when you were in this state. State that is the other part of the nervous system when the people are really worked up. Yeah, I learned that if the other side is really anxious and argo and aggressive, that actually I'm ahead of them Now. When I first started practicing law, I just thought there were a lot of very angry males on the other side. But actually, I know now that when people are in that aggressive response, they're actually in the fight or flight part of their nervous system, and they're not as powerful. And that you can be, is if you stay centered, you know, and you can do it simple. The more you do the daily practices, then in real time, when you're in those moments, you can, your, you can, you can anchor into your system quickly to switch into that part of your nervous system which is coherent. And like when I say daily practices, I'm not, again, not long term, but daily breathing practices and gratitude, like that simple practice that I just described is one of the most powerful ways, because then when you're in the courtroom and you're in that argument, you literally are practicing the breathing practice that no one can see that is keeping you calm while they're going crazy. It's also very powerful to teach your, your clients this when they testify or witnesses because it helps them to stay centered, to be able to answer questions and have the full picture as opposed to just the immediate threat when we're in that part of the nervous system.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah, I'll go. I actually go through an exercise with my clients where I'll prep them for a deposition or for trial testimony about, like, how to control their heart rate, how to control their breathing, all of that, because. And that's. I mean, most clients have never been through any sort of training like that. They've never been on the stand before, they've never been deposed. And so giving them those tools is really, really important. I do want to shift gears a little bit, a little bit more back to the team performance. What do you think are some of the biggest mistakes that law firm owners make whenever they're trying to fix team performance.
- [38:05]
C
Well, it depends on what's going on. I think that sometimes we get really pushed into metrics and analyzing metrics instead of approaching that leadership is really about knowing how to motivate and manage humans. Right. So we have to learn how to lead people. It starts first with having awareness of yourself and who you are and who you are as you show up. And so there's a difference between the skill set of being a really good lawyer and being a really good leader. So it, I do think that one of the things that we make a big mistake on is just pushing people harder, expecting more without giving them the tools to actually to know how to perform well. And there are some statistics that show that what really causes. Teams to lose people is because they don't feel seen that it's not a culture where they're communicated to, they're seen as humans and not just generators of work product or billable hours. We have to learn to bring in that we are dealing with people. And so we want to learn how to lead and motivate people based upon purpose and alignment with their strengths and feeling like they belong to something bigger than just. And it's not about money. Right?
- [39:45]
B
Yeah, I, I think that like Tesla and SpaceX, they're like really interesting case studies to me because if you look at Elon Musk, he seems to push his people really hard and. But it seems like he has a great culture. Retention is extremely high and I don't quite. And because I agree with everything you're saying and I, I think that you're spot on, I wonder what it is internally and I just don't know. I wish I knew more about how they operate because it seems like the culture is great internally. Retention is super high, the performance is extremely high. I just wonder how they're able to do that when they're being pushed so hard. Do you have any insight on that?
- [40:23]
C
I think that part of it is, is that they're. They're actually looking for people that are a fit not just upon skill set, but behaviorally. So if you put someone in a position that requires constant shifting, variety, multitasking, and you have someone who actually is wired for more structure and a slower pace, that they'll fail, they'll be miserable, they won't like it then and that will, that will impact the others that are around them and they'll leave. Right. That's a simple example we're often looking for when we're helping teams to higher end. We are looking at not just do they have the skill set, the knowledge, but do they have the behavioral fit into what they're asking to be asked to do. So I am not a detailed focus person. Now can I be detail focused? Yes. But I am very much more better to be flexible and just let me do my thing. But if I have to come in and have to be. If I had to work with numbers, I would terrible because it's not how I'm naturally wired for that kind of attention and focus. But we're often hiring people in our teams, like paralegal support staff, that need to be really detailed oriented. But you hire them in and you don't have clear processes, they'll fail. They also, they'll leave because they'll be unhappy. So that's one thing making sure that you have the right behavioral fit. The other thing, Tyson, is, is that to build a culture, you have to have and you have to look lead the values of what you expect, what you want and the standards, and you hold that, but you hire based upon that. So sometimes when I talk to leaders about what are your values that you're reinforcing, they just sort of glaze over. Like that's fluff. It's actually the thing that builds your culture. So you should be really clear on what those values are. And you should be asking people when you're hiring are ways to see if they're aligned with those. And then you're constantly reinforcing that in your team. That builds the culture of connection and collaboration. And that's where we see where teams where the people stay for long terms and become more high performing because of it.
- [42:36]
B
With regards to alignment, do you have any opinions on. Not necessarily about the tests themselves, but like on assessments like Colby, like D disc, all those sort of personality type profiles?
- [42:48]
C
Yeah, I think they're helpful. Yeah. No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean. Is it. Was there more you just opinions on it and.
- [42:55]
B
Yeah, I just want to get your thoughts. Yeah, generally.
- [42:56]
C
So, yeah, no, I think they're helpful. And when I started doing team performance, for a long time I was just focusing in on leaders because I was so obsessed with how do we get better at what we do. Because I burned out so young, you know, at like 31. Walked out of a courtroom thinking I was having a time hard heart attack. Right. And really I was just totally depleted and my, my body was starting to respond to that. And so it set me on a path 25 years ago of how do I figure out how do I do this? And Thrive in it, you know. So I do think that when I started looking at going from leaders asking me, well, can you work with my team? I started looking at all of those. And I do think that they're helpful. They're the things that help you figure out behaviorally whether or not someone fits into what you're asking them to do. And the one that we use is Predictive Index. I became certified in that one because I really loved the way that it showed more about how a team collectively, that their energy is, their behavioral style is collectively. And therefore that team collectively has certain strengths. But we also have certain we weaknesses based upon how we're wired and then looking at our strategy and how to cover that strategically because, you know, we all have strengths, but we also all have blind spots. That's true in a team too, when they come together collectively. So I think that they can be helpful there when we use it. It's very eye opening to team members to see how, um, they are wired differently than someone else. Like, I like to process out loud, right? I use a lot of words. I love to talk it through. I have a, you know, a partner who is, he is very more reflective. He does not like to process out loud. He actually said to me yesterday something that happened and I was dying to know. And I was like, how did that go? He's like, you know, I want a little bit of time to think about it and then I'll come back to you. I was like, I know because you like to think about things. I would just be talking to you about it and then I would come to my conclusion. But some of us do like to process out loud. That's a work style, that's a decision making style where some of us like to just think about. And so this kind of behavioral, you know, we use it for those kind of things. It's really eye opening to see how you're wired, how someone differently is wired. That brings a natural conflict. So I'm a person in one of the drives that Predict index looks at is, is a drive that they call the dominance drive. People who have high dominance drive like to influence people and events, right? So as a trial lawyer, I like to influence the outcome of what's going to happen, right. I have a high drive. That means in my work, I like independence, I like competition. I'm competitive, I'm often competitive with myself. That also comes across as assertive. I am. And I don't necessarily need to bring someone in to make a decision with me. Someone who's wired Opposite of me, who. The low drive dominance also has incredible strengths. They're very collaborative, very harmonious, they don't like competition. And if I'm working with people, I'm also very fast paced. So if you put my fast pace with my independence, assertiveness, I can come across as aggressive to people that are wired, opposite of me, who are slower pace, more structure, who want harmony. So just naturally, how we're wired can bring in conflict in our work if we don't understand it. So we use, you know, I think, Colby, I've looked at all of them. I think they're all, they all have some strengths to them, but we use that for people to understand how they're naturally wired and how that can cause natural friction. But also how do we have conversations around that to help us to work better together.
- [46:48]
B
I, I pulled up the predictive index because I, I never heard of it before. This is the first time. It's, it's weird. I don't think anyone else has mentioned it on the show before. And so I just, it's, it is
- [47:00]
C
kind of interesting for you to, I'll send you a link to take the assessment and then I'll, I'll send you a little. And I'll send you your results.
- [47:08]
B
Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be fantastic. Because it's, it's really, it's really is, is really cool. I, I'm just kind of clicking through. I think it's really awesome. So, yeah, do that. And then I, what I'll do is I'll do a separate episode on the results of that and yeah, we could,
- [47:24]
C
we can send the link to your whole team and I can show you where everybody, what they call naturally lives in the world of work. It's really interesting. It's a very good, it's a, it's a very good team, team bonding tool and it opens up communication in a different way of how we can work better together. I think it's important too though, on hiring, we use it for hiring in teams because you as the leader could take a different one, different than your individual assessment. You take a survey that's about 20 minutes long where you're looking at the skill set and also the behavioral style of the ideal person in, in this position, what would they be wired like? So is it fast paced or is it one that more structure and with slower pace? Is it one that requires a lot of communication? Is it a front facing, like, you know, a salesperson or your receptionist, your intake person? Or is it one that Allows for introversion, like paralegal analytical, working with numbers, etc. And details. And so it creates a target and then you give it to candidates who apply. And you can see pretty quickly behaviorally will they do well in this position. And I have seen thousands of them now and it is so on point and it's a little mind bogging because it really only takes less than five minutes to take the assessment that it could be so accurate. But it's really powerful and it helps with when you have, you know, 50 candidates, 50, 50 resumes, it quickly ranks them. You know, scoring really well into the Target is a 10. I don't interview anybody below a 7 because I've been using it for years. I know how good it is unless it's just someone who has an exceptional resume. And I'm like, let me see on these particular drives. Can we move it a little bit? You know. Yeah. So it's very helpful.
- [49:15]
B
All right, so the last thing I want to ask you about and then we'll, we'll wrap things up. But talk about supporting the human behind the employee. Like talk about that part of things.
- [49:25]
C
So seeing people as humans, one that I think that the number one thing that you can do is teach them performance by teaching through well being and looking at a whole picture of individuals for performance. And it's simple things like when we were just talking about how you open your morning huddle with what's a win. Also what's getting in your way is a really great question. Or what's really challenging for you this week that helps to support the human side and not just see it as I need you to crank out this right. Looking at people as a whole, not just their skill set and what they can do for you, but knowing who they are. My team and I tried to teach leaders to do this is, is you really want to know. Another thing that really drives performance and culture is to see what motivates your people and what are their goals for growth. Because people, people want to grow. And so knowing that you support that, that human side, the natural instinct that we have to want to be better, that you're looking as a leader to support that. So like with my team, I, when I hire someone, I, I go that have them go through an exercise of their five year goals of different areas in life. I want to be building a business that can support that. Not that, but you know, and I just had one team member who got to take a dream trip to see her sister she hadn't seen in three years because they live in different countries and she had been building through this. I knew it was a goal. Right. It was really fun to see that they have it happen. But that brings in collaboration and supporting people as humans. I think our job as leaders is to help people to be the best that they can be. Help people to be good people doing great work.
- [51:18]
B
Love it. I think it's a great answer. All right, so mindoverlaw.com helping lawyers go from breakdown to breakthrough. If people want to get in touch with you, lexlee, how do they do
- [51:29]
C
so they can do that by going to the website. I'm on all social media platforms under Lexley Overton. You can message me there. Email is lexleyxleighoverton.com so easy to. To find me. Yeah.
- [51:44]
B
Yes. I've got all your socials pulled up so that's great. I was going to mention those if you didn't. So fantastic. Great conversation. Really appreciate this. I think this is one of those episodes that forces people to sort of look in the mirror a little bit and how they.
- [51:56]
C
Yes.
- [51:56]
B
You know, handle them their own lives, how they handle their employees. But I think, I think we need that every once in a while as lawyers. So really appreciate you coming on, holding up the mirror a little bit to me and to others and the information you shared was fantastic. Really appreciate it.
- [52:10]
C
Thank you so much for having me.
- [52:27]
D
Max.com is this October in Atlanta and early bird tickets are live right now. If you've ever wondered what we actually cover at this event, it's nearly everything that goes into the business of running a law firm. Because at this level it's about putting all the pieces together the right way. If you've got a vision for your firm that's bigger or just better, better systems, more organized, more profitable or more self sufficient, this is the room that helps you make those shifts and build momentum in the right direction. Go to maxlawcon.com and grab your ticket today.