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- [00:01]
A
Are you tired of the marketing guessing game? Does your website feel more like a digital billboard than a client magnet? If you're nodding along, you're not alone. And it's time to stop the uncertainty and start getting real results. Let's talk about your marketing spend. Are you just shelling out money every month and crossing your fingers? Do you ever wonder what impact your marketing is really having on your revenue? Well, it's time to take the guesswork out of the equation with Rise Up Media. We've been working with them for over a year and, and the feedback from our fellow members has been fantastic. Rise Up Media is here to take your marketing to the next level. They'll even perform a full audit of your online presence, giving you the good, the bad, and even let you in on what your competition is up to that you're missing out on. And the best part, there's no obligation, no catch, no pressure. If you decide to work with them, their contracts are month to month. They, that's right. No long term commitments tying you down. So what are you waiting for? To learn more about how Rise Up Media can transform your firms, visit riseupmedia.com max law and rise is spelled with a Z. Riseupmedia.com max law all right,
- [01:18]
B
gents, I want to start here because I think that most law firms right now are thinking about marketing like it's 2020 still and it has changed drastically. What is it that you are seeing that most law firms haven't noticed yet?
- [01:31]
C
I think the, the biggest thing we're seeing is they, they've heard of it, they're confused by it, they don't know what to do with it. But it's everything related to all the LLMs and the chat GPTs, the clauds, the Geminis. They sometimes have people calling now saying, hey, I asked chat GPT and either you were there or you weren't there, but they, they have no idea why. So, so there's an enormous amount of conversation about, hey, how do I get in here, what do I need to do to show up where my competitors are there or I'm not. And the reality is there's not a single answer to it. There's not a single agency that has figured out this puzzle because it's a constant moving target. But there are things that can be done to give yourself the best chance of having these LLMs and the AI models actually find you for what you're an expert for. And we can get into that.
- [02:27]
B
Are you guys able to figure out how often people are using ChatGPT and Claude and perplexity versus say like Google nowadays or is it just sort of still the wild west?
- [02:37]
D
Well, I think that there's been every, every law firm out there has experienced about a 30 to 35% drop in traffic. You know, it makes it fun for the marketing companies because they're calling all you guys saying, oh my God, you're falling off the face of the earth for surf search and you can't even find you anymore. But it's not only, it's not only lawyers, it's actually every website on Google has experienced about a 30, 35% drop because people are using AI platforms, the chat GPTs, the Gronks, the Geminis, and they're asking for a recommendation where it used to be about search. You know, that it still is. Search isn't going away, it's just not the finish line anymore. So search is still important, but the finish line is basically answering questions, keeping simple answer questions that people are asking. So you will show up in the AI platforms.
- [03:31]
B
So I know you all do this all every day. This is like your own life. But I am curious, is this happening faster than you all expected?
- [03:40]
C
I don't think it's happening faster. I think, I don't think it's happening as fast as potentially the word on the street is out there. I mean, certain things are affected faster than others. But for example, we track all the calls and all the intakes for our clients. So we look at reports on a daily basis. You're seeing some sprinklings of a ChatGPT search that led to a call or a click or an intake or a Gemini. But by no means is it really denting the Google domination at this point. But that is what's coming. I think that the greatest threat to Google was never Yahoo or Bing or you name a search engine, but especially the younger generation is they're not going to Google, they're going to Claude or ChatGPT and asking the question. And that is circumventing them having to go to Google because they're coming up with recommendations and that is now not even leading to a click to a website, which is what Steve mentioned, why traffic to websites has dropped across the board. They're actually just going directly to creating a phone call or an intake. So you're circumventing the website visit to create that contact. To Steve's point, SEO still matters because it's a massive validation signal to how Google ranks you organically and what your website says. But there's a lot of other things as far as your credentials and validations and a lot of other data that needs to be correctly implemented across the Internet, that's going to give you the best chance of showing up there. But it hasn't happened as fast, to the point where it's made a massive impact to how differently people are making contact. But it's changing weekly and everybody is trying to put their arms around how do we monetize this, how do we create value? And the hardest part about it, Tyson, is it's not really trackable. With SEO, it's easy to track a Google search that led to this phone call and hence that person hired you. With the AI, you can say you're getting, you're showing up in all these places, but there's no connection to that led to this phone call. So you almost have to just believe that that's where it's going and it's going to fill in the gaps of where the loss comes from the other search engines.
- [05:55]
B
Here's what I think is kind of funny. So about a year ago, I was at the gym and this guy who's like 30 years old, I had a shirt on that had SEO, the letters SEO across the front of it.
- [06:06]
E
And.
- [06:07]
B
And he was like, hey, like, what's, what's that mean? I'm like, well, that's. I was thinking, like, it's obvious, it's search Engine optimization. Like, I feel like everyone knew that. But what's interesting now is, like, you have, like, everyone hearing the term geo. And now, like, I feel like people even a year ago didn't know what the hell SEO was, was, and now you've got geo. So, like, if you all had to explain that to, like, your parents, like, how would you explain what GEO is now?
- [06:34]
C
Steve, you want to go or you want me to take it?
- [06:36]
D
Sure, I'll go. Well, GM stands for, stands for Generative Engine Optimization. And everybody thinks it's really confusing. Everybody's freaking out about, oh, my God, it's going to take over the world. It's not going to take over the world, but it has taken over. They're just looking for answers. Content. We've been saying for 20 years, content is king on the Internet. It still is. Content is king. And what people. People are getting freaked out about, how do I get in search? ChatGPT or Gemini or Gronk? The way you do it is content. And it's also the KISS method, right? Keep it simple, stupid. Accuracy and conformity. Like, everything needs to be the same. If you had an Office and moved out of that office three years ago. But that old office address is sitting on your Yelp profile. That could really hurt you in the AI platforms because they're looking for consistency across all platforms. The one thing I can tell any law firm today, if they wanted to do something to help their chances and showing up in any of the AI platforms, consistency across every single platform. Answer questions, people go to Gemini And I'll use ChatGPT because I use ChatGPT daily chat. People, people are addicted to ChatGPT because it learns your behaviors, it remembers everything, tailors answers based on what it's learned about you. So people like to go and ask the question they, they give it's trust. People trust ChatGPT a lot more than they trust Google. Right. And. But the way you get rewarded on Chat GPT is consistency across all platforms. It office phone numbers, office addresses, your name, how your name is spelled, what you do, is it clearly marked? If you're. It's not fighting justice for everybody anymore. It's I'm a personal injury law firm in Tampa, Florida. I help people who have been injured. That's what really needs to be across all platforms. Everybody can really help themselves as they go in and rewrite their firm profile right now on all the platforms, including your website, anywhere you have listings, like if you're on Super Lawyers or if you're on whatever, you go in and rewrite your profile and put, put the most simple basic questions that you can answer for clients that are asking questions. It's going to help you immensely on the AI platforms.
- [09:08]
B
So here's something that kind of frustrates me in a way, like if my website is ranking on Google for some terms, like why wouldn't ChatGPT just automatically just recommend me that?
- [09:20]
C
Because there's, I mean, fair question.
- [09:22]
D
That's a great question.
- [09:23]
B
Yeah.
- [09:25]
C
I'll start with an example that was given to us by some of the people that are at our corporate headquarters where four people pulled up ChatGPT in the office, same room, they all asked it the same question and they all got a different answer. And To Steve's point, ChatGPT learns and they know your history and they know sort of what you're looking for, so they're going to give you an answer based on those things. Unlike SEO, which if you write the right content, you do all the right keywords and all those things, you can kind of guarantee a result if you write it competitively, ChatGPT is different than Claude, is different than Gemini, is different than Grok. They all have different signals and things that they pull from. So there is no one thing that you can do for all of them. SEO is important because that's going to get you visibility in Google, which is, by the way, where the AI overview, in a sense pulls data from. So whether it's the blogs that you have on your website or the SEO content that's based, an AI overview is basically them doing a search for you so you don't have to and summarizing it for you. You ahead of the organic, the work for you. And then summarizing it. You know, you get to the element where the geo comes in. It doesn't just summarize it, it starts recommending you based on your credentials. SEO is really about all the things that you do. Everything else is related to your credentials, who you are, are you good at it? Can you prove it? Are you a personal injury attorney? Don't just say millions recovered, say specifically 2.3 million recovered truck at wreck. I mean, the more specificity and the credentials that are out there for your expertise, the better chance you have of actually getting shown. Now the other thing that's really important is, and I've run this for clients where they'll run a, a ChatGPT search and say, who's the best injury lawyer in Orlando, Florida? And they'll run it and they're not there. And there are all their competitions there. And I say, well, ask ChatGPT why you're not there. And a lot of times the answer comes back with, oh, well, actually you absolutely could be included in this search. But I ran my credentialed search on firms that specifically focus on this one area. Whereas your firm actually does some criminal law and some bankruptcy and other things. I was looking for more of a boutique firm, but you absolutely have the credentials to be in there. So it's like, how did the person ask the question is going to determine the answer that the LLMs give? And you can see just by purely them deciding that a firm that's 100% focused on personal injury versus one that does multiple other things excludes you. Well, how do you, how do you work around that? Right, and that can be things from the PI attorney's credentials, their resumes, the case results, all of those things can move the needle there, but it's again, a constantly moving target. There's not one thing you can do that's going to guarantee you show up anywhere.
- [12:19]
B
So here's an interesting question for you. So clearly then, if I'm just, if I'm Focusing on exclusively on SEO, that doesn't mean, that doesn't guarantee I'm going to do well with the LLMs. But if I optimize for AI, is that going to help me with SEO?
- [12:36]
C
If you optimize for AI, meaning you're doing all these other things?
- [12:40]
B
Yeah, let's say, let's say like I just want to focus on, on, on optimizing for the LLMs. Is that, am I going to be doing all the same things that I would have been doing for SEO or is that going to be a completely different thing? I guess is really what I'm getting at.
- [12:54]
C
It's entirely different. Now they all sort of help each other, they all sort of validate each other.
- [12:59]
D
Right.
- [13:00]
C
You can't, you can't expect good results in AEO or GEO if your SEO is garbage. Right. Because your website is still the foundation of where all the information about everything that you do is. But if you're going to focus on the GEO AEO standpoint again, that is resume credentials, all the directories, whether it's super lawyers or Avvo or name your other place that you can be listed, those all send signals about how good an attorney you are because your website is there to say about what you do. The other tools are there to recommend you based on your results and how good you are at it. So they're, they're all connected, but it's an entirely different strategy.
- [13:41]
D
So, so basically SEO is like the librarian. You go up to the library and say, hey, I'm looking for this. They point you at the book. So you have to go and pick the book you want and, and read the, read the book to find your answer. AI platforms are the teacher. They basically tell you where it has, where it is in a book. They make you read it and then they tell you the answer. So it's, it's, it's a lot different. But I will say people shouldn't freak out because there's a good percentage of people that find somebody. I'm going to say, I'm just going to say ChatGPT, they, they get recommendations for a criminal lawyer or divorce lawyer. There's still one to the website to validate the recommendation. Right. And I don't think that's ever going to change. I think people are still going to want to read about the attorney they want to choose no matter what, no matter if it's an estate planning attorney or a criminal attorney. And so it all works together, but it is about consistency and clarity across all platforms. Other thing that vitus mentioned was like Avvo. If you have listings on Avvo and Super Lawyers and Justia, there's a way to get reviews on those listings that, that helps tremendously because that's. Those are all factored in by all the all the AI platforms is how many reviews are out there where Google only sort of. Google only cares about reviews on Google, right?
- [15:02]
B
Yeah.
- [15:03]
D
But the AI platforms care about reviews anywhere you're listed and reviews are an option.
- [15:08]
C
And you have to look at those reviews Tyson, as proof, proof of your credentials that you're actually. You get results for your clients. We tell people now in reviews, don't just say hey, he did a good job. Say hey, he did a great job handling my worker's comp case in Tampa, Florida. So location specificity to the type of case. All of those things are all picked up to make you the expert in something versus just saying, oh he got me a good result. That's that there's no information there. There's no meat on the bone. So the more detail that can be provided, even speaking engagements, you know, credentials where you went to school, all things that make you an expert need to be featured in profiles. A lot of profiles on law firm websites are basically a photo of the lawyer and like oh, in his spare time he likes to fish, you know, like great. But let's talk about why he's a good lawyer and why you would want to choose him, which is, you know, he's got 20 years of trial experience, he's won this many types of trial, whatever those things are. Everything like that is picked up by the AI tools and will absolutely be. Be a differentiator and you showing up versus someone that doesn't have those things.
- [16:16]
B
You know when you mentioned the reviews on like something like Justia, when you said that the stomachs of attorneys across the, across the country just rolled because now we have to focus on another set of reviews of getting other than just Google, which is just Google is already hard enough to get a review these days. Now you're having to focus on other platforms is just that it's, it's a, it's more headaches we have to focus on. That sucks.
- [16:39]
C
So, so not only as we'll say Google has always been the get more Google reviews and everything. They affect your LSAs, they affect your ability to show up in the maps. Right. Because we're assuming the first page of Google is the most important thing. Well that's changing now because people are not going to Google, they're going to the LLMs.
- [17:01]
D
Right.
- [17:02]
C
Again, as an example, ChatGPT, for whatever reason, pulls from Yelp as a source. So we tell everybody like, hey, go check your Yelp profile. Make sure you got some reviews on there. Because it's using that as a resource to rank. Right. Claude, for example, though, pulls mostly from, you know, super lawyers and AVO and these directories that validates their choices. And again, we do this all the time, where I'll pull up Gemini, Claude Anthropic, as well as ChatGPT. I'll ask them all the same question. A lot of times the results are similar, but a lot of times they're not. And then you can actually see the different variations of where they pull from. I'll give you a real life example that just happened the other day. I was searching for one of my clients and he's a workers comp lawyer, and we ran a search in ChatGPT and he's like, well, how come I'm not there? Those guys, you know, aren't any better. I'm. In fact, I'd run circles around them. And we referenced in the actual search, there was a link to an expertise.com blog. Both of the two firms above that he didn't think deserved to be there had a little Expertise logo. So you click on it, and apparently expertise.com had just ranked in July the top 10 workers comp firms in that area. And he wasn't on that list. So that's how they validated the other firms that were there. And so now there's more places, you know, expertise.com, for those that know, kind of showed up like, I don't know, Steve. Four or five years ago, out of nowhere, Three, four or five years ago, out of nowhere, they went out and pulled every lawyer possible out there into their directory and suddenly started advertising like, hey, this is the place to find the expert in your field. Without any real meat on the bone. But nonetheless, they were showing up in search engine results. Here's another place where you better make sure your information's correct, even if you're paying for it or not.
- [19:00]
B
Yeah, I remember getting notifications from them like, hey, we ranked you as number. It was like, like a bunch of things I didn't do. I mean, like, okay, this is nonsense. But here's the thing. People, people, non lawyers don't know that, though. Non lawyers. Look at that. Oh, my gosh, he's ranked number one. Is this. Oh, my. He must be amazing.
- [19:19]
C
So that's exactly right. The people that are looking to hire you have no clue other than what they see, and the expertise.com, this is the problem. They didn't call you or validate what they found about you. They just pulled anything they could and said, well, this, we'll just throw it all in here and assume that this is correct. And to your point, you're not. I don't do real estate. I don't do, you know, this and that. Well, then it's up to you to change it. They can pull anything they want and put it up there in their directory. And if it's wrong, that's on you.
- [19:50]
B
Frustrating. Okay, so if you were to look at, because you all do this on a regular basis, because you all, I mean you all do free evaluations of people's websites and all that and you are great. But let's say you were to look at a hundred law firm websites that were obviously not rise up media websites that you all manage. There are a hundred websites that you all don't manage. Like, what do you think would be the same mistakes you see over and over and over again
- [20:19]
C
from, from an SEO standpoint or are we looking big picture here with all the pieces?
- [20:24]
B
I'd say bit all the pieces now is what. Let's look at all the pieces.
- [20:28]
C
Okay, so Steve, I'll go first and I'm sure you'll, you'll chime in here. You know, in general, typically we see really poorly written content, not enough content, old content. So typically the law firm's website isn't getting any visibility in the SEO standpoint. Right. We pull up websites, you go to their blogs, and the latest one's two years old. I mean, one. What signals does that send to somebody that's looking at it, that you haven't updated anything in two years. But again, those are the kind of things that are also sending signals not only to Google, because they're looking for fresh content, they're looking for content that's not, you know, years and years old. One of the big algorithm changes they did earlier in the year was if you've got legacy content on your, your website, they now expect you to go and refresh it like every six months so that that content is relevant. You can't just have a blog entry from, you know, four years ago that's just sitting there doing anything for you. They now want that stuff refreshed. Right. So there's a constant churn of new information. So from an SEO standpoint, we just typically see law firms that maybe the website actually looks good, but they're not doing anything as far as proactive content writing. They might get a blog post every now and then they might get a social media post. That's another thing. A lot of the links you click, the Facebook link doesn't go anywhere. So there's a lot of sort of just stuff that hasn't been validated or checked to make sure that it's balanced and correctly hooked up. So we have sort of an analysis tool that we go through to take a look at, you know, hey, what, what are you getting from the search engines? And then it's easy to kind of see where the holes are. There's also now a tool that, and I'm sure there's going to be more of this available to the general public, but where you can actually kind of see the score that the AI tools give website and how you're, how cited you are in some of the tools. In fact, if you want, I can actually show you an example of that really quick, what that looks like. Let's see here. So this is a tool called Semrush that a lot of agencies like us use. And what you can see here in the left hand corner here is the AI search. So it's showing AI visibility, mentions, cited pages. You can see it has Chat, GPT, AI Mode, Gemini, but it's showing you that how much of your content and how your website is being cited across all the AI tools. I mean, 219 probably doesn't seem like a lot, but we see these with one or two and you're not going to have every single page on your website. This firm in particular has hundreds and hundreds of pages of content. But you're looking for getting visibility across all of the mentions here and the cited pages. And this is just this tool. I'm sure at some point there's going to be tools that rank you across all the platforms, but this is another thing that we kind of take a look at that if you have no visibility across the AI or no sighted pages, that means your content is crap. Google's not giving you any validity and you have no chance of showing up not only in the LLMs, but you're probably not showing up in any kind of Internet searches either. Steve, I don't know if you wanted to add on that.
- [23:34]
D
Yeah, I'll chime in. Will you pull the graph back up, please? I think the first thing Vitus and I look at, or anybody at Riseup, any one of our team members, the first thing we look at is the authority score, because theirs is a 34. This is, this is the value Google places on your domain on your, your law firm's domain. And there's a, this isn't a, this isn't a score of one to a hundred.
- [23:58]
E
Right.
- [23:59]
D
The highest we've ever seen on a, on a legal website is 40. Anything above 25 exceptional and it correlates to traffic. Right. So this firm right now is getting about 17,000 visits a month through Google Organic. The way you build your authority is pretty simple. You add relevant content. Like I said in the beginning, content is king. It's still king. Content is still king. Because Chat, GPT, Gronk, Google, Yahoo, they're not tech companies, they're content companies. So content is king. It always will be. The other way you build your authority score is referring domains and backlinks. This is the easiest thing. Any attorney can go out there and help themselves. Anywhere you're allowed to put your website as a link, you should do it. Whether it's Yelp, whether it's the state bar that you belong to or NACT or any of the associations that you are Max law. If you're allowed to put a link on your website, that's considered a backlink. The more you have, the higher you grow your authority score. Because when. And it helps in everything. It's not only helping for Google Organic, it's also helping for the AI visibility. And you know, this is a rough estimate. I think Semrush probably just put this together. I'm sure it's not that accurate because it's. So it's a moving target. Right. We kind of sat back and laughed at all the marketing companies are just jumping out there going, if you pay $1,500 a month, we're going to put you on all of our directories and it's going to give you a 10 times more chance to show up in the LLMs. It is so not. It is just so it's laughable. Right. Because the LLMs, it's like Vitus said in one of the previous responses was the three of us can do the exact same search on ChatGPT and all three of us will get a different set of results or recommendations. Because if you use chatgpt on a, on a consistent basis, like me, I'm smart enough to know that ChatGPT is wrong a lot.
- [26:03]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [26:04]
D
You know, and you call them out on it and they go, oh yeah, you're right. After I researched. But people, people that aren't that, that knowledgeable about tech or the way search engines work or the way that advertising, marketing, they don't. They just Trust it. The trust factor in ChatGPT is. Is. Is 100% higher than Google. You know, people in Google don't. People who use Google don't trust Google.
- [26:34]
B
So here's the. Here's what I want to do. Let's have a little fun here, because we're going to get into the geo audit checklist in a second. I can we. Can you all in. Are you all in a position where you can pull up ChatGPT? Because what's a good question that we can ask it right now that the three of us can ask it, and then we could kind of test our results? I think it'd be kind of fun for people.
- [26:56]
C
Okay, well, let's make it legal related.
- [27:00]
B
Okay. Yeah,
- [27:03]
C
let's. Let's see here.
- [27:05]
B
And I want to try to find something.
- [27:09]
D
Best DUI lawyer, Dallas, Texas.
- [27:11]
B
Okay. Best DUI lawyer. Gotcha. Okay.
- [27:13]
C
All right, so I'm going to share my screen to get the result, and then we'll see what everybody else gets. Right. So best DUI lawyer, Dallas, Texas.
- [27:22]
B
Now. Now, a normal person probably wouldn't say that, though. They probably say, who is the best?
- [27:26]
D
Yeah, let's do that. Who. Okay. Is the best DUI lawyer in Dallas, Texas.
- [27:36]
C
Get in here.
- [27:36]
B
Hold on. Wow.
- [27:41]
D
Mine's taking a minute.
- [27:45]
B
Vitus is on light mode. I'm on dark mode, baby, you're on light mode. See? Okay.
- [27:53]
C
Okay. So what's also interesting, Tyson, for those that maybe spent some time on here, ChatGPT is now showing some mapping results.
- [28:02]
D
And paid ads.
- [28:03]
C
And paid ads. This is a new thing. This didn't used to actually appear, but now they're actually showing some firms showing up here. Locations, stars, which is the reviews. Right. But here's the results I got. What'd you guys get?
- [28:18]
B
Mine's still thinking I. Maybe I should have changed the model that I was using. I'm going to click answer now just to give it some. You got anything, Steve?
- [28:29]
D
Yeah, mine's different. And the first two. The first two are the same, but the rest of them are different.
- [28:36]
B
Here, I'll pull up mine so you can see mine now.
- [28:40]
C
Okay, so hang on a second before you do that. You see where this one has avo, this one's got expertise.
- [28:47]
B
Yep.
- [28:48]
C
So this is exactly what I'm talking about. If I click on this. See the. This is an article. July 12 of 26, 26 Expertise listed the 22 best DUI lawyers in Texas. It is pulling from that list. And this. Chris Lewis and Associates is on that list. These other three are pulling from top rated on avo. So that's a great forms.
- [29:10]
D
Yeah, I got. I got one with Forbes and I
- [29:14]
B
clicked before you said anything. Sorry, it pulled up the screen.
- [29:16]
C
Oh, you already shared. Sorry, I wasn't showing it.
- [29:19]
B
No, but don't worry. Here. Here's what's really interesting. Look, I don't want to pick on Deandra Grant, but she's 3.4 and she's being recommended whenever you have a 5. You've got a 5, you've got a 4.8, a 4.8, and then she's ranked number one with a 3.4 rating on Google or whatever. I don't know where that starter rating is from. I clicked on it. No, check this out. It's a Yelp. So, okay, so chat Yelp 1.
- [29:45]
C
So there you go. Chat GPT. Pulling from Yelp.
- [29:48]
B
Interesting. Come back over.
- [29:51]
D
Will you go back to that, Tyson? Go back to that.
- [29:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, Give me a second.
- [29:54]
D
I want to look. I want to see something. Yeah, she has 3, 3.45 reviews and 3.4 on Yelp, but she's still getting featured.
- [30:06]
B
Look at these famous, like, these are two other firms. They like terrible ratings on here. That's what scares me about Yelp. I guess. So then you got back over here and then you got her, and then you got Dallas, DWI Defender, and then the Medlin. I think Medlin was on yours, isn't it? Wasn't it?
- [30:22]
C
Yeah, Melon was on mine. Medline's got a five star review on Yelp.
- [30:27]
D
Can you go to the right of that, Tyson? You see the little circle right there, the little highlight? Yeah, that.
- [30:35]
B
Yep.
- [30:36]
D
Is that what you're just on?
- [30:38]
B
No, this is Wikipedia. We were on Yelp. That's interesting that it's recommending from Wikipedia.
- [30:44]
D
Yeah, that's probably Yelp right there. Nope, that's Wikipedia.
- [30:49]
B
Check that out. That's really interesting.
- [30:51]
D
Yeah.
- [30:53]
B
Huh.
- [30:55]
C
All right, so Tyson, let me share again and I'll show you what I was trying to show before. And, and, and you'll see at the bottom here in a minute where it's pulling the resources from. Cause it's actually telling you. So you'll see here, like I said, AVO, top rated Dallas, Texas lawyers. Here's the expertise one 22 best DUI lawyers in Dallas, Texas, July 12th. So that happened four days ago. So that expertise is actually getting this Chris Lewis credentials. These guys are also in avo. And if I go all the way to the bottom, you'll see that the sources are. I believe that's Reddit, AVO and expertise. So it's saying that that's where it's pulling the results from. Right. So I'm going to play a game here and let's change the LLM model to Claude.
- [31:46]
B
Good. I like this. Good call.
- [31:49]
C
And I'm going to type in the same result and see what we see. Or same question. Okay. Top rated lawyers in Dallas, Texas. So now we've got the maps as well. And that's pulling from Google Maps. I'm going to assume that this is probably from their GMB results. So you've got the stars and Texas defenders, Warren Abrams. These are, these are definitely different than what we had with ChatGPT. And it looks like it's a lot to do with how many reviews are there because it's, it's, it's not necessarily saying what it's pulling from, but it's, it, the, the results are different.
- [32:30]
B
Okay, so let me show you mine really quick. This is interesting. Completely different view. Completely. Not completely different results, similar results, but definitely different results. And so we got. So it says, it starts by. There isn't an honest way to name a single best yada, yada yada. Then you got Warren Abrams, you've got Randall Eisenberg, Buck Johnson, I think was on your list. Vincent Varghese, and then Tim Clancy and Robert Gray, I think Robert Greg was on yours. This is Justia though. So this is one where it pulls from. Oh, that's funny. So you got Justia, you got from Abrams website themselves, like Warren Abrams, his website. You have from the Randall, Randall Eisenberg from his website. It's a criminal defense DWI lawyer, Dallas free case evaluation. It's from their website. So that's interesting how based on that search, it actually pulled from their websites. That's kind of interesting.
- [33:31]
C
All right, so I got something that's even a little cooler. I'm Gemini. So hold on, we're doing all of them right here.
- [33:38]
B
Okay, let's see this.
- [33:39]
C
Yeah, so Google search, right? Top rated attorneys, slightly different results. But what's interesting here at the bottom, you've got sources. And to your point of where it's pulling from, mostly from their individual websites and what pages it actually pulled from. So that is king to that point shows you that the reason that you're showing up there is because of what's on your website more than some of these other ones that are referencing the directories or name your other things. But I think the key to all this thing that we've sort of pieced together Here, somewhat not smoothly, but whether it's chat, whether it's Gemini, whether it's Claude, there's some consistency of the results. But they're even telling you that they're pulling from different things. So how do you as a law firm go? Like, well, crap, I got to have expertise. I got to go to my Reddit. I got to go to. Yeah, I mean, it's a moving target and you don't know what's going to be the next source of visibility. I bet you those firms that are listed on the 22 top firms in Dallas, Texas on expertise have probably no idea they're even on there. But it's actually benefiting them because it's pulling from expertise dot com.
- [34:52]
B
So anyway, yeah, so here I'm going to pull you. So you pull up the side window and then we'll pull up this and then get into the geo checklist. You had DeAndre Grant Law back up here at the top Again. My computer really likes Dander Grant for some reason. It gives you the map on the right side. So this is Gemini again, by the way. Randall Eisenberg, it was another one. Buck Johnson, that's another one that we saw before Robert Greg. So it is starting. There is some consistency now on this one. Where do we see the sources though?
- [35:22]
C
Because I'm not seeing Gemini. For me, I had it all the way at the bottom for the search that I ran. It wasn't under each individual one, but you could be getting a different. Go all the way down the bot, Tyson, and see if there's. There's nothing there.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah, there's. So you're not getting sources on this one. You are getting, I mean, I mean, and not surprisingly, I mean, you're using. This is Gemini. So it's Google. So it looked. Yeah, it's very similar. It's pulling from Google's resources, so definitely not surprised there. All right, let's jump, let's jump into this geo checklist with the time we have left and walk us through if people are going to make sure that they're completely optimized and doing the right things. What are we looking at? Let's give them the things to look at, the 7 point geo audit checklist to make sure that they're in good shape.
- [36:12]
C
Yeah, so there's a couple things and some of these are really simple. Steve mentioned this earlier about your homepage.
- [36:19]
B
Right.
- [36:20]
C
Your homepage should say workers comp lawyer, Dallas, Texas, not fighting for you or, you know, battling injustice or phrases that don't mean squat. Right. Can AI know what you are purely by what they see on your homepage. What is it that you do and where do you do it? So that's really important. It's kind of like the COVID to a book. What is this about?
- [36:43]
A
Right?
- [36:45]
C
Steve mentioned this earlier before the identity everywhere. And you even said this is such a pain in the ass. But it is. Your address, your, your location, everything needs to be updated everywhere. And we talked about this before we started. Is the word suite spelled out or is it abbreviated? Is there an amper sign on your on. On this address? Is there a number sign or is it just the smallest little differentiators that are wrong? You know, is avenue spelled out or is it a V E? Those little tiny things need to be correct and the same everywhere. So it used to be called nap on. Google name, address, phone number, phone number we talked about. Still have call tracking numbers, but everywhere, whether it's the Google Business Profile, Better Business Bureau, you want those to have your actual phone number. You can have call tracking numbers on things like directories and websites for those purposes. Attorneys don't just have a headshot and a quick little blurb about them. Talk about the credentials, speaking engagements, publications, all the profiles that they're actually listed in. If you're in super lawyers, make sure that's on your website. Go grab those badges from the super lawyers website.
- [37:55]
B
Right?
- [37:58]
C
Proof of your experience. Case results, settlements, awards, years of practice. Millions recovered is sort of vague. 2.3 million recovered for a truck accident in Dallas, Texas is very specific. The more case results and specificity that you have about those results versus just dollar figures. And again, we're obviously talking about a PI here, but even if it's criminal, like, you know, DUIs or drug charges or whatever, the more specific the better.
- [38:25]
D
Right?
- [38:27]
C
And again, your reputation. See your reputations. Reviews matter. Google sees, I'm sorry, the AI, they see your reputation. Do you have good reviews? Do you have a lot of reviews? Do you have reviews across all these other platforms? And simple things. You go to Yelp, most people have one review, maybe two. You know, go get five. That's going to send a powerful signal. Go get a review on Ava, on Justia. I know you said it's gonna drive everybody nuts, but this is the world we're living in now, where you can't just expect your website to do it all for you. All these other things send the signals to the LLMs on why you're, why they want to recommend you. Why are you the best choice? Because that's really at the End of the day, you want them to make you a choice, but you also want them to recommend you based on the information that they have found about you. And, you know, can you be verified for that without just looking at your website? Because they're looking at your website for less of that information versus the other things that validate your credentials. It's important to have the website. None of this works without having SEO working for you. But all these other things are where they're pulling from. For why is Tyson a better choice than Michael over here? Because he's got more trial experience, he's won more cases, he's gotten this many verdicts, that's what's going to differentiate and get you recommended.
- [39:51]
B
And I'm better looking. Is that part of the factors? Is that one of the true.
- [39:55]
C
You know, I'm sure there's a scale of that too as well. Tyson, I want to, I want to
- [39:59]
D
add to what Vitus said. SEO is traditionally who has the best content, the most keywords, the most relevant content on their website to rank right, to beat the top AI asks, who can I trust? And the way you build trust with all the AI platforms are simplicity and consistency. And it goes back to the sweet number and all that. But simplicity is what do you do? The other things you can. If I were a law firm right now and I was actually advertising my business in some form or fashion on the Internet, I would write FAQ pages. I would take 10 of the most common questions they get from each one of their clients, whether it's a criminal lawyer, an estate Planning Lawyer, take 10 of the most common questions they hear and answer it and put it on, put it on their website. Because people in AI ask questions, they're asking for recommendations. People on SEO and Google, they're searching for information. There's a big difference, right? If you're doing the search yourself, you're searching for, you're searching for information. It's completely different than asking chat GPT, who I've built a relationship with over the last year, who knows everything about me. It knows everything about my, my, my new, my new hoa. Is that you, Vitus?
- [41:23]
C
Yeah.
- [41:23]
D
It knows everything about my hoa. It knows everything about me personally, it knows about my background, it knows everything about my background. And I'm asking for a recommendation. I'm going to trust the recommendations it gives me, but really it's just simplicity and consistency. That's the best way to do it.
- [41:42]
C
And by the way, all those recommendations are actually pulling from your credentials, your website and everything. Else. But to Steve's point, the website is information. The AI tools are actually giving you advice based on what they found. As far as your credentials. A law firm can outspend their competition from a website standpoint, write more content, spend more on all these things and potentially get better results on the search engines. But as far as your credentials, you really can't fake those. Right? How many cases you won? Do you do well on trial? How many verdicts? What's your dollar volume? Those are the things that actually have to be legitimized and that's why that's going to be a recommendation versus you can't buy your way to the top of the AEO or the GEO results.
- [42:25]
B
Love that. Before we wrap things up, what are you. How do people get in touch with you if they're interested in Rise up media, what's the best way to get a hold of you guys?
- [42:34]
C
Yeah, so we again, anybody that wants to talk to us, we offer a no obligation free consultation. We'll look under the hood. We'll take a look at what you're doing, what's good, what's bad, what you can do better. You want to know what your competition's doing, we can do that too. You can, I believe we actually have an intake from you guys specifically that will get directly to us. But you can go to. Actually the best thing you probably do is probably text us or give us a call. My phone number 704-953-7051. Steve, go ahead and repeat yours.
- [43:09]
D
412-713-2764.
- [43:14]
B
Very good.
- [43:15]
C
The best way to reach us is we'll respond directly, set up a time and again no obligation. Happy to share our our analysis of what you're doing and give you some input and go from there and rise
- [43:28]
B
up it's with a Z and it's month to month which is. That's a huge differentiator. So it's one of those things where we've got a lot of people in the association that just love you guys. You all do great work for them. So having it month to month is just amazing. But one of the reasons why I want to have this conversation is because it's the exact type of conversations we're going to be having at maxlockon in October. It's lots of the conversations just like this, like we bring up bring together really the smartest people like you guys in, in legal, marketing and AI and operations, business growth all across the industry that because it's just changing so fast and I think that's great. Like have this conversation now. It's probably going to change by October because it's gonna, it's gonna give me a few minutes away.
- [44:11]
C
It's gonna change by next month, Tyson.
- [44:13]
D
But absolutely, as I said, tomorrow absolutely is.
- [44:17]
B
But I want to make sure everyone, if they want to meet with guys like you, with people that are just top of their industry, go to maxlawcon.com, you can come meet Steve Invitas, the Rise up team. Really all of our incredible sponsors are going to be there too. But really I appreciate you guys coming on to do this. I know you're taking time out of your busy schedule to do it, but I think there's a ton of value today. I really appreciate you doing that. So thank you so much for doing it.
- [44:40]
C
And let me, let me add one thing to end here, Tyson. If, if anybody wants an opinion on something that they're being pitched and I say that because there's a lot of people pitching buy this AI tool, buy this AI package and you get, we'll guarantee this and you'll have better results if you do this. And I'll tell you that, that a lot of it is fluff, A lot of it has no, no meat on the bone. But because it's AI, they just assume people are going to buy it.
- [45:09]
B
Right.
- [45:10]
C
More than happy to give you a second opinion on if, if someone's pitching you something, if it's worth it or not. But I would highly caution you to buy a package or much less a long term contract of any sort to that guarantees that you're going to get better results in the LLMs because nobody's got that figured out. It's a constantly moving target. There's the things that we've gone over which can influence that. But, but nobody has a package deal that's going to, you buy this, you're going to get this. And we do see a lot of people getting pitched those sites type of solutions and they just don't know any better because it sounds good.
- [45:47]
B
That's great advice and so hopefully people will take you up on that. Like I said before not to, not to give up your old's time but I know in the past you've, if people just want you just basically have an evaluation on their website. You all still do that, right?
- [46:01]
C
Absolutely.
- [46:02]
B
Yeah. Excellent.
- [46:03]
C
Happy to help anybody look under the hood.
- [46:05]
B
Yep. Really appreciate it. Steve Vitis, thank you so much for doing this. Appreciate it.
- [46:11]
E
You know that feeling when you leave a conversation with someone and suddenly your brain is firing on all cylinders again. That's Max Lacon. This October in Atlanta, you'll be surrounded by law firm owners who are building smarter businesses, dialing in their systems, growing their teams, using AI, improving intake, marketing, and finances. All of it. The conversations, ideas and people in this room will push you to think bigger about what's possible, possible for your firm. And honestly, there's just something different about being around people who are actually doing the thing. Go to maxlockcon.com and grab your ticket today.