Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast

Episode #329: Leading In Uncertain Times

Date: January 30, 2025
Host: John Maxwell
Guests/Co-hosts: Perry Holly, Chris Goede

Overview

This episode explores the challenges and opportunities of leading teams and organizations through uncertain times. Drawing from personal stories, practical advice, and core leadership principles, Chris Goede and Perry Holly discuss how leaders can communicate effectively, foster resilience, and stay anchored to values and vision even when circumstances are unclear.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Uncertainty: A Constant in Leadership

• Relevance: Uncertainty isn’t exclusive to major events (like the COVID-19 pandemic or elections); it’s an everyday reality for leaders.
• Quote:

  “The only thing you can be certain about is how uncertain things are always going to be.”
  — Chris Goede [01:17]

2. The Imperative of Communication

• Over-Communication: In times of uncertainty, leaders must communicate frequently, proactively, and transparently.
• Avoiding Silence: Silence leads people to create their own narratives, often based on fear or misinformation.
• Quote:

  “Communicate, and then you got to communicate, and it’s about over communication. … When there is silence, what’s happening is that they're telling themselves a story.”
  — Chris Goede [03:00]

• Two-way Dialogue: Communication should be a two-way street. Invite input, feedback, and even dissent from teams.
• Quote:

  “I want to make sure it’s a dialogue and getting their voice into that… feel free to dissent. Feel free to debate me.”
  — Perry Holly [04:41]

3. Reframing Uncertainty: Opportunity vs. Threat

• Mindset Shift: Leaders should reframe uncertainty as an opportunity for growth and creativity, not just as a threat.
• Leading by Example: The resilience and optimism a leader displays are contagious for the team.
• Quote:

  “If I’m acting that way around uncertainty and I have somewhat of a resilience to it, I’m optimistic about it... Your team is going to do the same thing.”
  — Chris Goede [06:20]

4. Empathetic Leadership

• Empathy vs. Judgment: Not everyone processes uncertainty the same way—approach with empathy and avoid shaming responses.
• Check-ins: Take time to check in with team members both professionally and personally.
• Team Support: Encourage the team to support each other, not just rely on the leader for comfort and stability.
• Quote:

  “That empathetic communication style removes judgment from your communication and maybe even some shaming… coach people that they can encourage and support each other.”
  — Perry Holly [07:06]

5. Anchoring to Core Values and Vision

• Return to Certainties: When the “what” and “how” are unclear, focus on the “who we are” and “why we do it”.
• Peer Reminders: Encourage teams to remind each other of shared values and organizational vision.
• Quote:

  “We do will and always will be very certain about who we are and what are our values... That part is certain.”
  — Chris Goede [09:29]

6. Stay Connected with Stakeholders

• Include Customers and Partners: Don’t withdraw into isolation—engage customers, partners, and anyone directly affected by the uncertainty.
• Reality Checks: Conversations with others can correct exaggerated fears or provide new perspectives.
• External Mentors: Seek out those who have led through similar seasons for guidance and reassurance.
• Quote:

  “The more I connect with others, I can get out of my own head... Is it really as uncertain or, you know, fearful as I might feel like it is, it’s probably not as bad.”
  — Perry Holly [10:52]

7. Adapt and Innovate

• Abandon Old Tactics: Uncertainty will expose outdated strategies—leaders must be adaptable and open to innovation.
• Personal Example: Chris shared how moving from in-person workshops to virtual, and now not doing them at all, reflected this adaptive process.
• Quote:

  “Uncertainty is going to uncover, I promise you, that the strategy you have in place can be better or is not working. And so you're going to have to be adaptable.”
  — Chris Goede [12:17]

8. Realistic Optimism

• Balance Positivity and Realism: Stay optimistic about the future, but acknowledge the genuine struggles and challenges people face.
• Focus on Controllables: Emphasize what the team can control and don’t get bogged down by what they can’t.
• Quote:

  “If you’re overly optimistic and unreasonably optimistic in some areas, some people could be hurting, some people could be suffering... Be optimistic about the future. Be optimistic about opportunity.”
  — Perry Holly [14:28]

9. Resilience and Teamwork in Crisis

• Example: Apollo 13 as a metaphor for extraordinary teamwork, creativity, and leadership under extreme uncertainty.
• Quote:

  “I thought about the Apollo 13 movie... the uncertainty that happened as they were going through that process and the teamwork that happened... All of that happens in every little bit of uncertainty that we have. It just won’t be to that scale.”
  — Chris Goede [15:13]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Over-Communication:

  “They just want to… hear your voice. They don’t really even care at times what you’re saying to them right now. You got to have some substance or they’re going to stop listening to you over time. But I think in great times of uncertainty, that’s very true.”
  — Chris Goede [03:00]

• On Empathetic Leadership:

  “It doesn’t help for us to come down on them and tell them, you know, toughen up, buttercup. That’s not helpful. That actually adds to the shame...”
  — Perry Holly [07:06]

• On Realistic Optimism:

  “Being realistically optimistic. Don’t let whatever is troubling, don’t let it drag you down. Keep your optimism up and find the way through. That’s what we do.”
  — Perry Holly [15:04]

Important Timestamps

• 01:16 — Introduction of the topic: Leading in Uncertain Times
• 03:00 — The importance of frequent, transparent communication
• 04:41 — Encouraging two-way dialogue and debate within the team
• 06:20 — Contagiousness of a resilient and opportunity-focused mindset
• 07:06 — Empathetic communication and removing judgment
• 09:29 — Anchoring the team to values and vision
• 10:52 — Engaging stakeholders for perspective and camaraderie
• 12:17 — Adaptability and letting go of ineffective strategies
• 14:28 — Maintaining realistic optimism and controlling the controllables
• 15:13 — Apollo 13 example: teamwork and creative problem-solving under uncertainty
• 16:16 — Three actionable leader takeaways (see below)

Actionable Leader Takeaways (Recap)

[16:21–17:10]

1. Clarity and Communication: Prioritize proactive, transparent, and repeated communication—even when you don’t have all the answers.
2. Openness to Innovation and Change: Be willing to abandon old strategies and adapt quickly as new information emerges.
3. Grow Emotional Intelligence: Foster self-awareness and empathy to better support team members through uncertainty.

Tone and Style

Genuine, conversational, supportive, and insightful—punctuated by humor and stories that make leadership lessons relatable.

This summary provides a thorough yet accessible overview of the episode, with direct takeaways for leaders seeking to guide their teams through uncertain times.