Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast

Episode #373: The Empathetically Driven Leader

Hosts: Perry Holley & Chris Goede
Date: December 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the "empathetically driven leader," a concept that highlights the importance of balancing empathy (caring for people) with drive (achieving results) in leadership roles. Drawing from recent research by Dr. Jack Zinger and Dr. Joe Folkman, Perry and Chris discuss why mastering both empathy and drive is rare but essential for effective leadership, especially amid workplace challenges such as burnout, shifting values, and demands for higher engagement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Need for Empathetically Driven Leaders

• Definition: Leaders who blend empathy with a results-driven mindset.
• Context: Modern workplaces face increased stress, remote work, generational shifts, and growing disengagement.
• Challenge: Leaders must balance caring for team members (Empathy/Level 2 in Maxwell’s model) with delivering results (Drive/Level 3).

"Most of us have probably felt it, where the tension becomes caring for our people. But yet knowing that we've got to...drive results, otherwise if we don't, we don't have a job. Right?"
— Chris Goede [00:52]

2. Research Insights: Empathy vs. Drive in Leadership

• Source: "Leadership Skills 2025 Report" by Dr. Zinger & Dr. Folkman.
• Findings:
  • Only 15% of leaders excel at both empathy and drive.
  • These leaders rank in the 91st percentile for effectiveness.
  • High-empathy leaders significantly boost team engagement—even more than high-drive alone.
  • Individual contributors score higher on empathy; executives are typically recognized for drive.

"If that's true, we got a lot of work to do... Those that have figured it out, they are in the 91st percentile of being effective as a leader."
— Chris Goede [03:39]

3. The Impact of Empathy on Engagement & Psychological Safety

• Empathetic leadership directly fosters higher engagement and psychological safety.
• Teams with empathetic leaders experience:
  • Openness to share ideas.
  • Belonging and inclusion.
  • Increased creativity and performance.

"High empathy leaders, it builds psychological safety...I don't have to fit in; I can belong. And this, it fuels this creativity and the learning in the high performance environment."
— Perry Holley [06:49]

4. Five Practical Ways to Demonstrate Empathy (According to Zenger & Folkman)

[1] Eliminate Double Standards [08:02]

• Audit your own privileges and ensure fair workplace experiences.
• Reflect: "How would your team describe the difference between their work experience and your work experience?"

[2] Make Development a Daily Priority [09:24]

• Coach and encourage learning from mistakes.
• Share personal failures and learning moments with the team to turn errors into education.

"Use that growth not only...in regards to a positive growth mode, but then also in a way of learning from the mistakes that you and the team may be going through. That's empathy in action."
— Chris Goede [10:09]

[3] Master the Art of Inspiration [11:20]

• Go beyond goals—tie individual work to deeper purpose.
• Inspiration sustains motivation, especially when routine sets in.

"Empathy isn't just about the comfort or, you know, consoling someone. It's actually about the connection with them to the purpose..."
— Chris Goede [10:44]

[4] Build Bridges Across Differences [12:56]

• Show empathy to those unlike yourself; invite contrarian viewpoints.
• Foster inclusion and psychological safety by hearing from all team members, especially quieter voices.

[5] Embrace the Vulnerability of Feedback [14:53]

• Share not only feedback you give but also feedback you receive.
• Be open about mistakes and challenges to build trust and model courage.

"If your people leave your presence going, so what? You’ve lost them. But if they leave your presence going, me too, you have them."
— John Maxwell (quoted by Perry Holley) [15:37]

5. The Balance: Empathy and Drive Together

• Empathy without Drive: Creates comfort but no progress.
• Drive without Empathy: Produces results but erodes relationships.
• Leaders must do both—touch the heart and ask for the hand.

"You need to do one first. You need to touch the heart and then ask for the hand."
— Perry Holley [17:42]

• Empathy is an essential leadership skill, not just a "soft" skill.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "As leaders climb higher, they're often recognized and rewarded for more performance, not necessarily connecting with people... But if we lose empathy at the top in our leadership, man, our organizations are going to pay for it."
  — Chris Goede [05:01]

• "It's easy to show empathy to people like you, but do you have empathy for those that are a bit different?...Are you comfortable with the differences in others?"
  — Perry Holley [12:56]

• "Vulnerability builds trust. You need to be able to do that as a leader."
  — Chris Goede [15:04]

• "Empathy without drive creates comfort without progress, but drive without empathy creates results without a relationship."
  — Chris Goede [16:40]

Important Timestamps

• [00:52] — Defining the "empathetically driven leader" and its importance
• [03:39] — Research statistics: Only 15% of leaders excel at both empathy and drive
• [06:49] — Psychological safety and the power of empathy
• [08:02] — Practical way #1: Eliminate double standards
• [09:24] — Practical way #2: Make development a daily priority
• [11:20] — Practical way #3: Master the art of inspiration
• [12:56] — Practical way #4: Build bridges across differences
• [14:53] — Practical way #5: Embrace vulnerability in feedback
• [17:42] — The law of connection: Touch the heart before asking for the hand

Conclusion

Perry and Chris emphasize that being an empathetically driven leader is at the heart of what effective leadership is—and that, despite the difficulty, the payoff in engagement, trust, and sustainable results is undeniable. They close by challenging leaders to assess where they might be over-indexing (empathy or drive) and to consciously build the balance, for the benefit of themselves, their teams, and their organization.

"If you can do that and you can see others clearly and you can lead alongside them, you will be able to set the direction. And then you'll have people that are connected to you, and together you guys will be able to accomplish a ton of stuff, more than you could by yourself or more than they could by themselves."
— Chris Goede [17:53]

For the full learner guide or more leadership resources, visit maxwellleadership.com/executivepodcast