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Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. I am Perry Holly a Maxwell leadership facilitator and coach.
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And I'm Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Before we get started, I want to encourage you go to maxwellleadership.com executive podcast and there you can learn more about our 360 degree leadership offering. We have Teaming for Success. We're working on bringing out Valerie Burton's new resilience training. We are serving the organizations right where they're at and so if you're interested, you can fill out a form. Our team would love to get in touch with you and tell you a little bit more about that. Well, today's topic is this can be a little bit different. Some, some wordsmithing here. And Perry is doing this to me on purpose because he's been giving me some easier ones. Yes. Is the empathetically driven leader. Did I, did I say that right? Empathetic. I'm empathetically driven leader. So today we're talking about really kind of a new phrase, a new kind of leader in the workplace that needs to show up, needs to be there. Most of us have probably felt it where the tension becomes caring for our people. But yet knowing that we've got to level three, we've got to drive results, otherwise if we don't, we don't have a job. Right. So you gotta be able to balance that level two skill set and level three in the five levels of leadership. And that's kind of the foundation of what we're gonna talk about.
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Well, we recently did an episode on burnout and the quiet cracking that we talked about. And we know that anxiety is at all time highs and a lot of our workers younger and older, it can be a lot of negativity on the team. You can like we've got remote work and there's debates about that increased demand for speed to market and for servicing clients, shifting values sometimes about what's important to our team. You know, there's a lot going on and that your, your team, your people and you're driven, you're driving this at level three production that Chris was talking about. But the, it's really a great time to be a little more empathetic to, toward folks. And the idea here is, can you do both? Can you be empathetically driven? And I got the idea this came from a research paper that just came out, the Leadership Skills 2025 report by Dr. Jack Zinger and Dr. Joe Folkman. And they captured my attention when they said that leaders today are facing unprecedented challenges when it comes to these types of things. And I think that we're seeing it real time with a lot of our clients, and I thought it'd be a great thing to talk about.
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Well, just a list of. Of things that we're facing. You just. I'm exhausted, but listening to the list you just talked about because, yeah, it sounds like it. We need to live out this title today, Perry. But all of that, I think leaders need to understand is the. Is driving the result of what we're seeing. We're seeing the burnout, right? We're seeing where younger people are like, man, tell me how what I'm doing ties to a bigger purpose in life. If not, I am out of here. And then you got people that are working different time zones. We have some on our team three, you know, three. Three hours away. We're trying to figure all this out. And so as leaders, we're getting to a place to where we've got to figure out how to do both of these. What I'm fascinated by, because you and I tie this to the language now, me more than you, obviously, you have a relationship, you know, with these guys and have spent some time with them. So some of the language is geared towards them. But for me, I go right to level two and level three, and this next stat just blew me away because I thought, man, if that's true, we got a lot of work to do out there. And so Zenger and Folkman report in there that only 15% of leaders can actually excel or are actually excelling at both the care and the actual drive, the empathy. And the drive for us would be level two and level three. But those that do and those that have figured it out, they are in the 91st percentile of being effective as a leader. And I'm like, oh, man, I want to be that. Like, I want to figure that out. How do I go about doing that?
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Yes. It's also interesting that they called out the. The high empathy leaders were show significantly higher engagement scores, which we've been talking about seems like forever.
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Yes, forever. And it's not moving, by the way. So obviously you and I aren't doing a very good job about talking about. The numbers are actually going the other way. They're going down.
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I don't take any responsibility.
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It's our podcast. It's the Gallup's gonna source our podcast.
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Of the reason why. Attention to it. They're just driving it through the floor.
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Yeah.
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Now that these high empathy leaders show significantly higher engagement scores, even if they have a high drive about them, it's also interesting that teams that are led by high empathy leaders show significantly higher engagement scores. Even if their drive isn't as high, the empathy is there. So empathy alone will move the needle is interesting to me. But when you combine empathy and drive, that's when leadership becomes transformational. You can be a high empathy leader and people will feel good, but maybe you're not driving the business the way, but you'd be high drive without empathy. And you maybe feel like you're driving the business, but you're losing the people. And we would, we would call this thinking about, you know, how that level balancing level two and level three you.
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Mentioned earlier, it's so good. I, when you think about it this way and you just made a comment about having high empathy, you know, moves the needle more than the other. But man, in relationships I've had with leaders in the past where they had both that empathy and the drive, it was like, let's go like that. That's some of my greatest times that I can remember, you know, as an individual contributor. The research also found something that initially was kind of fascinating, but when you think about this, it's, it's, it makes a lot of sense or it shows up in reality, I think with, with the work that we do. And you're probably going to agree with this where they said individual contributors tend to score higher in empathy while the executives tend to excel at drive. And so you look at that and you go, hm, yeah, that does kind of make sense because as leaders climb higher, they're often recognized and rewarded for more performance, more metrics, more numbers, not necessarily connecting with people. It's about the financial reports. Right. The earnings are out. What does that say? It doesn't say the connections are out. Right. In the organization, the earnings are out. And so kind of makes sense on why that's like that. But if we lose empathy at the top in our leadership, man, our organizations are going to pay for it, the efficiency of it. There's going to be lack of trust. There's not going to be the engagement level again of what we're talking about. And so it's so critical to figure out how to balance both of these.
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It's interesting that we, we hear a lot about topic that, that we've talked, we've talked about A lot here, but it's in the headlines about psychological safety and do the people on your team feel safe being themselves, telling you what they think, having a voice, disagreeing, those types of things? And they find that high empathy leaders, it builds psychological safety. It says that it's okay to come to you, it's okay to say things to you, it's okay to be myself. I don't have to fit in, I can belong. And this, it fuels this creativity and the learning in the high performance environment. So we really want to do this and I want to go through some practical and get us started here, but just reminding that Zinger and Folkman, when they do this, they take in this data from hundreds of thousands of 360 assessments and what leaders are telling them. And so I've gotten a lot of value from Jack and Joe and their, their research over the years. I really encourage any of you if you follow them or go and look at their research. Jack and Joe both have several books out that talk about leadership and trust and these types of things. So I think these, these ideas that are going to come from them, I think they're, they really have gotten my attention.
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Love it. So let's unpack five ways that they lay out practically that leaders can demonstrate empathy. Number one, it's interesting, eliminate double standards. And so first of all, start at looking at your own leadership habits, right? Do you enjoy privileges? Do you maybe take advantage of certain things that maybe your team doesn't and they're, they're aware of? It could look like flexible work hours. Hey, you require everybody to be in the office nine to five every day you're showing up. Three, whatever that might look like, right? Maybe you take more time off or maybe it's just having access to certain information. Now hear me say this. There are things that, you know, all leaders at times are going to have to have access to over the notice. But these are things that are very apparent to the team that there's a double standard between the life that you're living in and the life that they are.
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Well, it's worth doing a little audit every now and then to see other special privileges that you might be receiving. Then ask yourself, does this serve the broader organization? You know, maybe a great question to reflect on would be how would your team describe the difference between their work experience and your work experience? And like you said, there's definitely some lines there that, where you, you have to have some differences. But the experience that overall about coming to work should not be heavily slated toward you get all the good stuff and we get all the.
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That's right.
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Second thing that Zinger and Fulton brought up was making. And we love this one. Make development a daily priority. That empathetic leaders don't just correct mistakes. They correct. They coach people through them and help people to grow. So I think, you know, this really speaks to all about is that, are you doing the daily learning and do you have a growth plan? Do you have a learning plan? Are you doing something every day to get better at what you're doing and that will help with this empathetically driven leader is that we're all growing and getting better.
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Ian, let me add on to that. Use things that maybe you have failed at some setbacks to learn from and then share what you're learning. Man, listen, I did this the other day and made a big mistake. I just want to let you all know this is what I learned from what that looks like and then be able to share that across the team. And when you do that, that empathy and the drive for what we're trying to accomplish is there. And so here's a question for you was, when was the last time you took a maybe a team members, maybe yours, maybe the team as a whole mistake and turned it into a growth opportunity for the entire team versus using it as kind of a time to correct someone or correct the team or whatever that might be. So use that growth not only as Perry was talking about in regards to a positive growth mode, but then also in a way of learning from the mistakes that you and the team may be going through. That's empathy in action, right? That's turning error that may have happened into education. Number three is master the art of inspiration. Empathy isn't just about the comfort or, you know, consoling someone. It's actually about the connection with them to the purpose, which leaders miss out on this of why they're doing what they're doing in order to. I mean, real quick, Perry and I talk about this periodically. 373 times. We haven't missed a Thursday.
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373.
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Perry's writing the content. We're sitting in here, right. Wade's in here with us. And so we're producing this. And sometimes you got to retie the purpose. And we get it when we go out in the field, right? But sometimes we're not on the field. And so how are we tying that then getting in here and doing this over and over? Tuesday is coming, and we're doing this right to where Perry's creating his content. Because the impact that it's having on individuals and teams. And we are about powerful, positive change. So, anyways, I'm just living this out in the moment because Perry and I sometimes have to go back to even some of our content and go, man, I need to be doing a better job of that. That's just kind of an example of the power of being able to. To inspire each other about why you're there.
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That's really great. We are driven every. To be here every week to do this. However, what's the reason? What's the purpose?
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What is it?
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And is it inspiring to say, yeah, we're trying to make an impact on leaders who will multiply impact to others. And that. That's our. Our purpose. And so, yeah, can I get up and do that?
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I can.
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This one did the master. The art of inspiration did catch me a little by surprise. I had to think about it. But, you know, as a driven leader, we set goals, we set expectations. We were accomplishing a lot. When you add empathy to all that and reframing those goals as maybe inspiring possibilities for the team, not just requirement to get the job done, but tying it to their purpose. And I think about a lot of our work with the generational leadership saying, a lot of the younger workers today are not driven like me, the older worker where I was about accomplishment and success and money and status.
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And it's different.
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They like those things, but they really want to know why and what's the purpose of that. They want to be inspired. And I think this idea that, you know, are. Are they bringing inspiring. Are the people in your team bringing inspiring ideas? Maybe the inspiration has died a bit. And we're so driven. We're all about the requirements, not about the possibilities. And I thought that's what that got me for. But number four, build bridges across differences, man. We've done a lot about talking about inclusion and allowing people. Are you. Are you comfortable with the differences in others? It's easy to show empathy to people like you, but do you have empathy for those that are a bit different? Empathetic leaders invite voices that really challenge their own. This goes back to our inclusive leadership topics around belonging and that psychological safety and is it okay to be me in all my diverse differences from you? Can I be me and bring myself to you? Or do I need to line up and assimilate to be like you and just salute, stay mute and play the game and not bring my true to.
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Reminds me of your story about a leader that you had that said, hey, Perry, if we both have the same. One of us is not needed here. Right. But it's going to be you. That's right. Yeah. So I love that. Are you opening and inviting, you know, contrasting viewpoints of when you're considering doing something with the team or moving forward? And. And then often, you know, you're going to hear from a lot of voices on your team, and usually it's the same ones you're hearing from over and over and over again. So you're taking time to hear from those that maybe aren't speaking up and going in and picking their brain a little bit. Hey, what am I missing? Like, what do you think about this? What's your perspective behind that? So I love that. Well, finally, number five is embrace the vulnerability of feedback. Do you share feedback? I was saying earlier, even just someone would make a mistake. You know, are you willing to be vulnerable and share that, but also, are you willing to share the feedback you receive? So, for example, for me, right, Mark Cole, our CEO, he's my leader. So if Mark and I have a conversation, give me feedback. Am I willing to come to my team and say, man, listen, this is what I learned about myself this week, and here's what Mark challenged me. Are you willing to do that? Do you share your mistakes, your challenges, and where you need help? Vulnerability builds trust. You need to be able to do that as a leader.
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Yeah. So some think vulnerability. If I ever ask them do a poll, people say, oh, it's weakness. No. If you've seen it in a leader, it is 100% courage, and it is a trust builder. And you think, well, why does vulnerability enhance empathy? And I've heard John Maxwell say, if your people leave your presence going, so what? You've lost them. But if they leave your presence going, me too, you have them. And so when you're vulnerable, you're saying, I'm like you. I also have struggles. I also make mistakes. I also need help. I also don't have the answer all the time, just like you. And they think me too, they're more bought into you. And that empathy, that empathetic vulnerability that's in there says that, man, I'm like you. And it makes. It gives me. It builds trust, it builds energy.
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One of the greatest communication lessons that I got from John was we were getting ready to go and do this Navy SEAL training with one of these groups that we had. And let's just put it this way, the room wasn't at all ready for any type of Navy seal. Now, we were just doing the basics, but they didn't know that. Right. So there was a lot of tension. But John pulls me aside. He says, let me. Let me tell. You need to handle the situation. I was like, I'm ready, like. Because he goes, I need you to get up there. I need you to sit down and. And you just tell him, I. I don't know if I can do this either. I'm actually a little bit anxious about this. And he goes, just watch what happens. And I did this. And they just went.
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Yeah, like, me too. And I'm like, so, guys, I promise you, like, if I can get through it, you know, view. And so that's what you're talking about, right there is like being able to do that. And so just remember this, right? The. You don't. You can't choose between both of these. We want you to be incredible level two and empathetic, and we want you to have great production at level three in the five levels of leadership. And as Perry mentioned earlier, empathy without drive creates comfort without progress. But drive without empathy creates results without a relationship. And you can't do that in the world of leadership. You can't do that. You have to have both.
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Reminds me of one of the 21 laws John calls the law of connection. I love this because it says that leaders must touch a heart before they ask for a hand. And some of us are really good at the drive that's asking for the hand. Ask for the hand, ask for the hand. Not touching so much heart. And some of us are good at the empathy, which is touching the heart, touching the heart, touching the heart. Not so good at asking for the hand. You have to do both, but you need to do one first. You need to touch the heart and then ask for the hand.
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Yeah. And we use this phrase. Susan Davis brought it to our attention, and now you see it more and more out there is. It's an essential skill, not a soft skill. Right. It's essential that you understand this empathy part. It's not soft. And making a leader doesn't make you soft. Right. It's an essential part of what you're doing. And if you can do that and you can see others clearly and you can lead alongside them, you will be able to set the direction. And then you'll have people that are connected to you, and together you guys will be able to accomplish a ton of stuff, more than you could by yourself or more than they could by themselves. And so it comes back to the. The two phrases for me in the five levels at levels two and three are people following you because they want to, or are they following you because they have to? And if you get to that point and you understand that you got to have the want to, the production is going to come and it's going to last a lot longer than the have to.
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Fantastic. Well, great stuff, Chris. Thank you. And reminder, if you'd like to get the learner guide for this episode, or if you would like to learn more about our offerings, other podcast offerings, you can do all that@maxwelladership.com executive podcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you and we're so grateful you'd spend this time with us today. That's all from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.