#406: Momentum Is Not Clarity with Greg Steely

Summary

Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast Episode #406: Momentum Is Not Clarity

Guest: Greg Steely
Hosts: Perry Holley & Chris Goede
Date: July 23, 2026

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Overview:

In this episode, Perry Holley and Chris Goede welcome Dr. Greg Steely, head of Maxwell Leadership’s nonprofit division, to explore the critical leadership lesson: momentum is not the same as clarity. Drawing on personal experience and organizational observation, Greg reveals how leaders can easily conflate energy and movement with true organizational alignment, and why wavering on clarity can leave even the most energized teams feeling lost or disengaged. The conversation is a deep dive into practical strategies for cultivating clarity in leadership, its impact on team alignment and performance, and Greg’s own path from momentum-driven to clarity-driven leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Illusion of Momentum Versus the Substance of Clarity

• Defining Momentum: Often, leaders pride themselves on generating momentum—energy, movement, and excitement. But that momentum, as Greg describes, may not be strategic or sustainable without clear direction.
  • Quote (Greg, 03:31):
    “I charged the hill and, getting up to the top of the hill, I went, where the heck is everybody? I realized ... I wasn't being very clear on the front end about where we were going.”
• The Wave Analogy:
  • Quote (Greg, 04:47):
    “When you talk about catching the wave of momentum, I've always thought that ... but if you go look at waves, waves eventually crash.”

2. The Clarity Sandwich: A Framework

• Layers of Organizational Clarity:
  • Who we are (identity of the organization)
  • What we do (core activities)
  • How we do it (methods, resources)
  • Why we do it (purpose/mission)
  • Quote (Greg, 07:32):
    “I call it the Clarity sandwich...The who and the why are the bread of that. The meat inside is the how and the what.”
• Common Mistake: Focusing too much on ‘how’ and ‘what’, leading to confusion and lack of shared purpose.

3. Organizational Symptoms of Poor Clarity

• Unsettled Teams:
  • Excess PTO, increased questioning, reduced engagement, and fewer head-nods in meetings.
  • Quote (Greg, 09:06):
    “When your team feels unsettled…they want to have a trust of settlement. ‘My role is clear, my responsibility is clear, my distinctive of how I will get to where we're going to get is very clear.’”
• Confusing Activity with Progress:
  • Quote (Greg, 10:28):
    “It's a lot easier to hold accountability around energy than execution.”
• The “Re” Words:
  • The cost of lacking clarity is visible when leaders find themselves needing to redo, recalibrate, or rehire.
  • Quote (Greg, 18:26):
    “It's going to cause you to redo a lot...to recalibrate a lot. When you hear anything that starts with ‘re’, that's not good.”

4. Accountability & Clarity in Leadership

• Three Primary Responsibilities:
  • Awareness: What are the goals, and where are we going?
  • Accountability: Who is responsible for what?
  • Action: What steps are we actually taking?
  • Quote (Greg, 11:01):
    “Awareness, accountability, and action. Like those are the three A's.”

5. Personality & Team Dynamics Around Clarity

• Not Every Leader is a Galvanizer:
  • Greg, self-identifying as a ‘galvanizer’, admits the drawbacks of his wiring—sometimes creating energy without purpose.
  • Importance of including discerners, plotters, and challengers in the decision-making process to provide balance.
  • Quote (Greg, 16:00):
    “Discernment is usually the opposite of galvanizing ... You need that malcontent in the room, right? That one person that's going to challenge everything you do.”

6. Practical Tools & Habits for Clarity

• Pre-Meeting Intentionality:
  • Greg writes out participant names and specific clarity objectives for each, striving for tailored communication.
  • Quote (Greg, 22:15):
    “I wrote their name in one column and I wrote clarity at the top and I wrote next to each one: What do I need to be clear about in this meeting so that they understand it?”
• Post-Meeting Reflection:
  • Adopted a “seven-minute rule” after each meeting to review notes/transcripts and identify where clarity may have been lacking.
  • Quote (Greg, 30:44):
    “After every meeting is seven minutes. It's just a buffer...read the transcript. What did I miss? Sometimes I know where I missed it and I just review that.”

7. Encouraging Open Dialogue & Mitigating Fear

• Recognizing that dominant personalities or positions can unintentionally block honest feedback or questions.
• Quote (Greg, 26:30):
  “There's so many people that are so fearful about their position in the organization that when the leader comes in and says something...they just agree...disagreement could be dangerous.”

8. The Role of Repetition and Consistency

• Clarity is reinforced by repeating foundational themes every quarter, every meeting.
  • Quote (Greg, 27:17):
    “So every quarterly meeting, in every meeting that we have...that quarterly theme is talking about those, that sandwich. This is what we're talking about, getting clarity around that. So it's just repeatable all the time and we're hoping that it sticks like Velcro.”

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Memorable Moments & Timestamps

• How Greg realized momentum was not clarity (03:21–04:53)
• Explanation of the Clarity Sandwich (07:32)
• Recognizing symptoms of poor clarity (08:12–09:22)
• The cost of lacking clarity: the “Re” words (18:21–19:27)
• Practical habit: pre-meeting clarity map (22:15)
• The “seven-minute rule” post-meeting review (30:44)
• The importance of having dissenting voices (16:05–16:52)
• A standout moment: a teammate calls out misalignment (28:45–29:12)
  • Quote (Greg, 28:58):
    “One of the teammates popped up and said, ‘That's, that's not who we are.’ And I thought, my gosh, that's what you want.”

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Rapid Fire - Key Takeaways & Leadership Advice

• Leadership habit added:
  • More post-meeting reflection and review, especially focusing on clarity gaps. (30:20)
• Frequent question:
  • "Do I have the right people in the room?" (31:36)
• In-the-moment clarity warning sign:
  • Faces and body language reveal when messages don’t land—know your team, and pay attention. (32:20)
• Advice to younger self:
  • Slow down; settle into your leadership—clarity is more important than speed or urgency. (33:39)
• Clarity test:
  • Avoid asking, “Are you clear?” Instead, look for long-term consistency, feedback, and check-in beyond just the meeting.

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Notable Quotes

• "It's a lot easier to hold accountability around energy than execution."
  (Greg Steely, 10:28)
• "When you hear anything that starts with ‘re’, that's not good."
  (Greg Steely, 18:48)
• "You need that malcontent in the room, right? That one person that's going to challenge everything you do."
  (Greg Steely, 16:41)
• "Slow down, settle in to your leadership. You're in the position for a reason."
  (Greg Steely, 33:52)

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Actionable Practices for Leaders

• Build organizational clarity using the “sandwich” model: bookend processes and products with deep alignment on identity and purpose.
• Prioritize clarity before momentum to prevent costly corrections later.
• Regularly review meetings and always check for understanding, using both explicit questions and subtle cues.
• Ensure diverse perspectives (not just like-minded galvanizers) are present in strategic discussions.
• Repeat key messages and organizational values frequently—consistency builds clarity.
• Leave time for post-meeting reflection—seven minutes can reset your whole leadership approach.

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Closing Thought

Momentum is powerful, but without clarity, it can leave energized teams running in the wrong direction or burning out. Sustainable leadership isn’t just about rallying people, but about ensuring everyone knows exactly who they are, why they exist, what they’re supposed to do, and how they’ll do it—together.

To dive deeper, download the episode’s learner guide and explore additional resources at maxwellleadership.com/executivepodcast.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I'm Perry Holley, a Maxwell Leadership facilitator and coach.

[A]

And I'm Chris Goede, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining. Before we get started today, I just want to remind you real quick, I'd love for you to go to maxwellleadership.com executive podcast. There you'll see a form on that landing page. We would love to hear from you. I know Perry would love to hear from you. We, we need content for our, our next episodes. We were just talking. We're going to introduce this guy in just a minute, but he's like 400 plus episodes. Like we're like, yeah, we're running out of content. So that's why he's here. Okay. So it's just, we just figured we'd find somebody to be able to do that. But we would love to hear from you. And then more importantly, maybe you have a team that you're looking to just lift the lid on their leadership. Maybe you have some individuals you'd like to get some coaching. We would love to go on that journey with you. If you'll fill out that form, our team will follow back up with you. Well, today's topic is momentum is not clarity.

[B]

I'll read the subtitle.

[A]

And then the subtitle is. And I learned that the hard way. I love what we want you to know is not Perry and I, but our guest has learned that the hard way. You know, many leaders were created to create energy. We're created to rally people and cash vision and, and get them excited and send them out of the locker room, get them moving and, and get them moving. But then oftentimes there are organizations that are moving in the wrong direction because there wasn't great clarity on the front end. And so we have a special guest today in studio with us. So this is a dear friend of ours and he's a peer of ours here at Maxwell Leadership. I've known Greg for, I don't know, well, maybe 20 plus years. A long time. We're old and he's a dear friend of ours. But here's what I love. He's got his doctorate in strategic leadership. He also is leading our non profit here at Maxwell Leadership, doing a phenomenal job with that. And man, there are people that want you to come speak and they want you to Coach.

[C]

And it's amazing.

[A]

You're.

[C]

It is amazing.

[A]

It's amazing. Yeah. Even though it took us 400 episodes to get them on our podcast.

[C]

Let's be clear. 406 episodes to get me here.

[A]

I do wanna. I do use it. We're gonna have a lot of fun. We told Perry, walk in. We're like, there's gonna be no short of words. Now, most of you that listen, you go, man, I love this podcast. It's 20 minutes or under. I. I don't know about that. You may have to go to 2.5 speed. But, man, thanks for joining us. That's a little leadership. This guy right here loves organizational leadership, Loves strategic leadership. And there's sometimes to where I just call them up or, or we'll connect and I'll be like, hey, what are your thoughts about this? Hey, how would you do that? And so he is a student of it and applies it and does a really good job here leading our nonprofit team. So. So, Greg, thanks for being a friend. Thanks for being here. I'm excited to talk about this topic today.

[C]

Me too.

[A]

Well, I got, you know, I got to know.

[B]

So the subtitles. What capture me. Momentum is clarity. I learned it the hard way. What happened?

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

What did. What didn't happen. Didn't happen.

[C]

My goodness. Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm very happy to be here. You guys are. Are two great friends and two great leaders.

[B]

Tried to have you here for number 200.

[C]

I know, but we. I know you. I've listened to all 406 episodes, and, man, they're spectacular, right? They're really spectacular. So. Yeah. What. So what happened? Well, you know, it's a funny thing. Perry and I were talking earlier about momentum. Momentum is one of those words that's thrown around a lot, right? People. People will say, hey, how's everything going? You'll say, man, we've got a lot of momentum in sports. It's, you know, you guys are sports guys. So it's. It's really thrown out, right? The change of momentum in a game or. And I started to really think about that and think about times in my life where I was like, man, I'm such a galvanizer. I'm such a. Like, let's go. Let's charge the hill. And how many times I, I, I charged the hill and, and getting up to the top of the hill, I went, where the heck is everybody? Right? Like, I'm standing at the top of the hill by myself, and I thought I had this just inertia momentum to get going. And I realized what was, what the problem was, is I wasn't being very clear on the front end about where we were going. And, and so many times I found in my leadership that my galvanizing tenacity, part of who I am, can really build that kind of what you said, Chris, kind of that motivated momentum.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, and, and here's, here's a good way to look at it. You know, when you talk about catch the wave of momentum, I've always thought that, I've seen that picture.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But if you go look at waves, waves eventually crash. Right. Like they eventually hit something and crash.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

So for us, at least in my leadership and the people I get the pleasure of leading and the organization I get to be a part of, I've really had to hone in on less, really focus more on clarity than really building momentum.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. So as you think about this momentum, you mentioned getting to the top of the hill and then there being no one there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Are there times in your leadership, are there moments that even as leaders that we ought to be aware of to where we create the momentum? And maybe some are with us, but not all of the team. Have you seen that experience that in your leadership? And if so, what would you tell our listeners to be sure that the whole team is moving as a unit?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's good. Well, I, you know, in my experience, what I find is sometimes if they do make it to the top of the hill, I'll look around and go, I'm not sure these are the ones I wanted to make it at the top of the hill.

[A]

The ones you wanted.

[C]

Right. The smart ones are at the bottom of the hill because they're seeking clarity.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They're seeking clarity of mission and purpose and vision and that, and, and that's good. I learned, I learned a few years ago. And, and I'm, I'm going to give Chick Fil A some credit on this because I, I, I spent a lot of time in Chick Fil A in a previous job that I had and, and talking to them and, and I love the way that they go about their organizational structure and business. I'm an organizational guy, and I kind of studied them and, and became, I got this thing from them to realize, I mean, they, they, they sell chicken sandwiches.

[A]

Right, Right.

[C]

I mean.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They sell chicken sandwiches. But, but let's be honest. Most of us don't go to Chick Fil A because of the chicken sandwich. We go to Chick Fil A Because of everything else around Chick Fil A. Yeah. In fact, if they. If Chick Fil A tomorrow said we're going to sell hamburgers, you know where I'd go buy a hamburger from Chick Fil A. Because I know it's going to be efficient, it's going to be excellent. The experience is going to be fantastic.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So I. I began to. To create this model of how we drive clarity in an organization. And, and the model that I try to fit everything in, to be very clear on is. Is kind of starting with, first of all, who. Who we are. Right. Being very clear as an organization about who you are. You have to build clarity about who you are in the nonprofit world. For us, we're a leadership nonprofit.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Now, what's interesting about that statement is, is that we're not just a nonprofit. There's lots of non profits. We're a leadership nonprofit. That's a distinctive for us.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In every level of clarity, you need to have a distinctive for your organization,

[A]

the decision making filter. For you. It is in real time.

[C]

It is.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Yeah. We're a leadership nonprofit, which. Then we go from who we are to what we do.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We add value.

[A]

Right.

[C]

How do we do it? We do it through resources. And then finally we go, why do we do it? I call it the Clarity sandwich, Perry. It's a clarity sandwich.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's the who and the why on the. The bread of that. The meat inside is the how and the what.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think what happens with organizations that just for me, I spent so much time on my leadership focused on the middle of that sandwich and just driving the how and the what. Driving the how and the what. And we were losing clarity about. About who. Who we are and why we do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, so when you find out there's other symptoms that people aren't clear, I mean, how did you notice that you're rushing that mountain? I love that visual. You think people are behind you, but if you look back on that, is there something you could tell on the leaders that are listening here? How do I know clarity is not clear?

[C]

Yeah, that's. That's good. Because. Because what I could say, you could still have progress without clarity. Yeah, you could still.

[A]

You.

[C]

You could still generate revenue without clarity. You can do all these things. The word that I've said that I've settled on is Funny. I said settled. It's unsettled. When your team feels unsettled, which means they're never comfortable in any situation of movement or leadership. Right. Not stillness Stillness is not. Is not moving.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I'm talking about an unsettled what. What I've learned that people in an organization really want is they want. They want to have a trust of settlement. Like my role is clear, my responsibility is clear. My distinctive of how I will get to where we're going to get is very clear. When they don't have those things and become very unsettled. And when unsettling it with the re. The symptom of unsettledness is you begin to see people take more PTOs than they usually do.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Right. You begin to see that they have a lot more questions than they usually have.

[B]

Hey, wait a minute.

[C]

Exactly. Exactly. So you begin to see that there's a lot less head nodding. You know, head nodding in organizations is great. If people are doing this right here. You got it. If people are doing this, be worried. Be worried. Because that's an unsettledness in their heart.

[A]

Yeah. So what I love about that is you're talking about the settlement of the people will drive the team to almost alignment.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We talk a lot about, you know, how do we communicate in a way to our team that we don't all have to agree. Yep. Right. But we got to be in alignment and. And move forward.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

With that. So as we think about this, you know, clarity creates that alignment. Why do we as leaders, we. We love activity. Right.

[B]

Nick?

[A]

I love to check off lists. Right. And I think other people too. Why do we. Why do we allow as leaders what, what have you learned and seen from your leadership and all the work that you've studied? Why do we allow us leaders to think activity is progress versus actually being having the right results which is driving the progress? Because I think we get caught. We see people that are busy. We want the rah rah. We want the energy. And we're like, why do we allow that to happen?

[C]

Well, I think some of it is it's a lot easier to hold accountability around energy than execution.

[B]

Say that again.

[A]

Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. I was going to say. Wait a minute. Stop right there. Because that. That it's. Right. It's easier on us. So say that again.

[C]

It's a lot easier to hold accountability around energy than execution.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

You could b. Cuz. Cuz listen, when you go have a one on one with somebody, what are you talking to him about?

[B]

Well, you know, we should have had him on number.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

I should have been on all 400 by this. this rate, this will be the last time yeah.

[A]

With your dad. The next show will be Perry and Greg Steely from here on out.

[B]

But.

[A]

No, but our job is leaders.

[C]

No.

[A]

Good, because we don't. Leaders don't like to give feedback either and hold people accountable. And that is.

[C]

And that's almost our primary responsibility. I always say our three primary responsibilities as leaders most of the time is awareness, accountability, and action. Like those are the three. The three A's, Right. Awareness, accountability, and action. You bring awareness of what the goals are and where you're going. Right. Clarity. You bring accountability to who's responsible for what. You hold them accountable. And then there's got to be some sort of action or your company's going to die. That's right. And so what we, as leaders, sometimes we have a hard time holding people accountable to execution. It's much easier for me to hold you accountable to your attitude. You know, you have a really bad attitude or, man, your energy in the office is fantastic. But when we start to talk about execution. Yeah, it's harder. And that's usually. I will tell you this, I'm the chief center in this. That's my role as the leader. To write clarity around. Around what the executable goals are.

[A]

Yeah. The other thing before I throw it back to you, as I was. I was even thinking about this is even making sure the behaviors are what we are holding people accountable to. To go a little bit deeper on what you said is, yes, energy is great, but how do we not only understand what the KPIs are that we're holding and clarity around that, but the clarity around the behaviors that are going to drive those results? We often miss it. We don't go to that. That level. I was with the leader yesterday and we were talking about changing the culture, and he's got a vision and he's excited about it and this, that. And I just. They have values. They got 10 of them. I was like, okay, maybe too many. However, I was like, hey, so tell me, what are the behaviors behind that that drives that. That allows you to hold people accountable to your team? So you just got my wheels spinning on. I'm thinking about that. So I have to.

[B]

You said kind of throw away a little while ago. I'm a galvanizer. I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I recognize working genius. And we have what we all have a little.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Where we do work, is this tied to a personality and temperament? Do you need to be. I'm thinking a lot of leaders say, well, I'm just not. I'm not that galvanizer. I'm not that Charge the Hill guy or girl. I. Is it tied to your personality and temperament or can, how do you hold people when you're not the galvanizer?

[C]

Well, I think what you've got to do is it. It's got to become more important to build the system within the organization than in the person in the meter. Right. So I'm a galvanizer, but I'm not trying to make my organization a galvanizer.

[B]

Okay. Right.

[C]

I'm trying to build the organization. So it's more the wiring of the organization and the wiring of the team you've built and understanding how your team operates than it is really not your wiring. I mean, my wiring dictates a lot of that.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But what I've had to learn about myself is my galvanizing, as we said a minute ago, can. Can come in a room and take over the room. Suck the air out of a room.

[A]

Almost.

[C]

Right. And everybody will say, well, yeah, that's. That sounds exciting. Let's go do it. But I've just created energy.

[A]

Right, right, right, right.

[C]

I've just created energy. Well, that's not going to get us any.

[A]

Right. Once you leave. Right. The room, it's not gonna progress.

[B]

Great.

[C]

If I've not created the. Like a perfect example of this would be kind of a sports analogy. When you think about a team, when they talk about, hey, the. The momentum changed in a game. Right. Well, the momentum didn't really change. What happened is the other team just started to execute on the game plan that was already there because the coaches had done such a great job of creating the game plan. So it's not about me creating momentum. Do. Have. I created the right game plan for my team so that when I come in and say, we're going to charge that hill, they go, okay, here's how we're going to charge that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you talked about. It's an organizational system is what you're talking about in regards to this clarity, creating momentum. Because people come and go. Yep. And so Perry often talks about there's a lot of leaders that want to see organizations fail once they leave.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

That's. It's not leadership.

[B]

No.

[A]

Let's stay for just a minute on the working. The genius kind of the galvanizing moment. Now, I know you don't think you have any blind spots, so we're going to start right there.

[C]

Figured out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For. I know Monica is now going to listen to the first time ever, episode 406.

[C]

That's my wife, she's probably watching live, right?

[A]

Yeah, probably. That's right.

[B]

We're live.

[A]

Come on. Yeah, we just up the level right there. So when Perry was talking about, you know, personality traits. So obviously in the sick. In the six, the working genius galvanizer for you. And each working genius, each can create clarity in their own way. So it's not just creating it the way that galvanize galvanizers do. But I want to use that for today's example, because you're very aware of what your strengths are in doing that. Right. You talked about, I come into a room, I can rally people on the other side of that. What have you learned that you've had to. To be aware of? What are the blind spots that maybe your team has brought to your attention? That you go, man, because I'm wired this way. I want to lead this way. But I gotta be very careful, you know, when I'm creating clarity or trying to create momentum. Because of what as a galvanizer.

[C]

Well, discernment is usually the opposite of galvanizing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Because I'm a galvanizer tenacity. If, you know, the working genius, like, that's like a. That's like a powder keg of dynamite comes into a room.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Let's go. And let's go. Now.

[C]

Exactly what are we waiting on? My gosh, we should have been there yesterday.

[A]

So.

[B]

But.

[C]

But discernment, what my team is helping me understand is let's understand who's in the room, right?

[A]

Who.

[C]

Let's understand who's in the room. And who do you not have in the room that needs to be in the room? Because you haven't discerned that enough. Like in early on, I'm learning this through my team is I would just get a bunch of galvanizers in the room, right. Just like minded people. I mean, we're the ones are going to charge the hill. But then what I learned to die is I need to. I need somebody that's a discerner. I need somebody that's really a plotter. I need. I need the. I need a. We all. Yeah, and you all need it. You all need that. That malcontent in the room, right? That one person that's going to challenge everything you do.

[A]

Right. And.

[C]

And so my team has helped me really begin to surround myself with those people that brings the galvanizing down. Does it change the passion? Sure, but it makes the energy more efficient.

[A]

Good. I like that

[D]

Your leaders are navigating change, burnout and rising expectations. Every single Day. The question is, do you have a system to handle it? At Maxwell Leadership, we equip organizations with practical leadership development that strengthens resistance, resilience, sharpens communication, and drives performance under pressure. This is not a theory. It's leadership your teams can apply immediately because resilient leaders don't just survive pressure,

[C]

they lead through it.

[D]

Start building that system today. Download the free 5 Levels of Leadership field guide at 5levelsofleadership.com it includes real world case studies, common leadership pitfalls at every level, and a 30 day influence growth plan that your leaders can put to work right away. That's 5levelsofleadership.com.

[B]

So you mentioned a little bit. Right. The cost of. If you're not aware of this and seeing the symptoms and knowing that momentum is outrunning clarity, what does that cost an organization if you don't. I'm thinking this has got to be expensive. Somehow you don't get a lot of activity going on, but maybe we're not doing the right things. Where, where does the, where do the cost?

[C]

Well, I call it the re. It's going to cause you to redo a lot.

[A]

The reset.

[C]

It's going to cause you to redo a lot.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

It's going to call it. Cause you to recalibrate a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So that, so recalibrate. You know, you've got to, you're going to have to either come down on your speed or speed up or go or move.

[A]

It makes me think about the re, like rehiring. We talk about it a lot. Turnover and engagement with, with leaders. And the cost of poor leadership is the rehiring. It's the same thing. What you're talking about here is the redoing.

[C]

Yeah. With leadership. When you hear the, when you hear anything that starts with re, that's not good. Yeah, that's not good for your organization because that, that means something has to be redone. Something has like some it. And so.

[A]

Hey, that's a podcast. That could be one in the future. Right there, Perry. Right there.

[C]

Yeah, I'll be, I can come back. So. Yeah, so, yeah, it's so you think about it, Perry. If it, if you, if the RE are what cost you money, they cost you people to rehire, they cost you momentum or everything down. It does. It slows everything down. And that's what I've seen is we had, we've had to redo, I mean, so many things because we got way too out. We're, we're riding the wave of momentum and it Crashed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's good. Well, I think. Do you get out too fast? Yeah. And. Yeah, this is. This is good. So keep going.

[A]

Hey. So. Okay. You seem like a wise old soul right now.

[C]

I think I'm younger than.

[A]

No, I'm not younger than you. No, you're not. And you've learned a lot. Oftentimes people will say, man, if I could go back and know what I know now as a leader and start over again or as an athlete. We've heard. Yep. Right. Yeah. When you think about this, looking back and what you know now about organizational leadership, your strategic focus as a leader and creating this whole clarity, what would you do different in the beginning as a leader? So there may be a leader that's listening right now that's beginning their journey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's trying to drive momentum on a small team or a small organization. What would you say? Man, I wish I would have done this differently from early on.

[C]

That's good. I go back to that sandwich. I kind of talked about that clarity sandwich. I really wish I would have focused on the. The ends of. Of that sandwich.

[A]

And.

[C]

And I'm a strategist at heart, so I. I really. I really spilled a lot of time around kind of the product in the process, you know?

[B]

Right.

[C]

Instead of the people and then.

[A]

And then the.

[C]

The ultimate goal and performance. And so I would have. I would have done that. And I think. I think that's where we get. Especially in times of crisis. I. I just listened to podcast you and Mark did on. On, you know, leading. Leading in times of crisis. And I think sometimes in times of crisis, we focus a lot more on the. On the. You know, how do we get out of this and what do we need to do to make that happen instead of just going back and going, you know what? Here's who we are.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And here's why we do it. And those will guide us to the answer.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. That's good.

[B]

So the obvious. The goal here is to have clarity up front. That leads to momentum. Yeah. So we're moving on the right way, on the right things at speed. So what changes did you make to get clarity up front? Is it this. Your communication style? Is it. How did. How do we, you know, encourage leaders today to make sure clarity is in place before you galvanize.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And take everybody. I love you. It's not just clarity of what we're doing. It's clarity of my. The vision and my role in the vision. What you expect of me. Lots of things personal and organizationally. I need to be clear about so that I can freely run. But how do we get that early in the process and what. What changes when you get that Clarity.

[C]

Yeah, that's good. So I've started this habit about, I don't know, about seven years ago, I worked for an organization and I was trying to grow it, and I'd have these meetings and have all these people in the room. It was really probably around Covid, so it might have been a little longer than that. We're doing a lot of zooms. And I learned in that I was like, man, I got a lot of people on this call. I need. I need to. I started writing down their names and I wrote. I wrote their name in one column and I wrote clarity at the top and I wrote next to each one. What do I need to be clear about in this meeting so that they understand it?

[A]

Wow. Right.

[C]

Because I think the responsibility of the leader is I had to communicate. That's what. Why leadership is tough.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because I've got to be able to communicate it. So each person on that call personally identifies with a clarity.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I can't call that person out, but I've got to be able to. To communicate it. So to your point, I've really had to hone in on my communication. But know my team. Right. Know how do I take what I need to get across here and communicate it so everybody on this list understands it?

[B]

Do you think we as leaders, we say it and we think they got it? We're sure I was clear.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Clarity should be. Not be a problem. Is that just what we're doing? We're kidding ourselves. But I like the personal aspect of looking at a name and thinking, does Chris Cody have it?

[C]

Does he get it?

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[C]

He's not going to get it, period. So I wouldn't use him as an example.

[A]

But this area, you just pop right into that one. Yeah.

[C]

This is what, what to that point, this. This is a great point. This is me as a leader. Okay. Every meeting I walk away from, I go, I wasn't clear enough. Oh, yeah, I wasn't clear enough. I've got to take a step back. I've got to redo. I've got to. I take my assistant takes notes, and all the meetings that I'm in, I take a step back. I read through those really quickly. I go, missed it there. I've got to go back to the team. I would say this. I don't know of anybody, any leader that's worth their weight and salt. Could step away from meeting and go, that's perfectly clear. When you're doing that, you're in a dangerous situation.

[A]

You're missing it.

[C]

You are not clear because you're not. There's no way that you're. You're perfectly clear. There's something in that that you miss. Because as leaders, we love to verbally process, and when you verbally process, you over. Verbally process, overwhelm people, especially to the team.

[A]

Let me come back to this. I want to talk about. To get your mind. So you're. You're an innovator, you're a builder. Right. You love to. To change things. And so you're getting ready to communicate this clarity. How collaborative are you beforehand so that you're able to communicate what you're thinking, what you want to start the initiative does land on everybody on the team. Or has this been just a developed. Learn, developed skill set that you have where you're like, no, I got it. I know this is where we're going, and I'm going to communicate that because I think sometimes leaders. The question for me is thinking sometimes leaders get a little bit too collaborative and sometimes they get a little bit too siloed. Siloed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But we got to be somewhere in the middle in order for us to really create clarity for the entire team. How do you go about that? And. And maybe even. Have you done it both ways?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it stretched the out because there's too much input. And over here, maybe you completely missed it because you didn't get any input.

[C]

Yeah, that's good. I'm a bit controlling. I don't know if you knew that or not. So I'm a bit controlling. So I like to control the narrative many times. But my team has helped me with this. And, and one of my team members that actually came up with this.

[B]

What's.

[C]

What's the point I'm trying to make of clarity?

[A]

Right.

[C]

What's the point I need you to make as my teammate?

[A]

Right.

[C]

Whoever that might be. And what's our collective point that we're trying to make as the inner circle of the team? The leadership team? Right. I'm never. I like leadership teams. I don't like operating just by myself because I can be dangerous just by myself. I'm a disruptor, I'm a galvanizer, whatever. So we clarify that before we go into a meeting.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Greg, what's the clear point of clarity you're trying to bring as the. As the leader.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The umbrella leader. What's the clarity that Whatever this meeting is about marketing or whatever, I have my. My director. And then collectively, how are we. How are we coming around each other? To make very clear to everybody, it knows that we're in alignment as a team, as a leadership team, and that brings them in.

[B]

There's that accountability. It is with each other.

[C]

It is.

[B]

Yes. That's. I was thinking of when I'm listening to someone, and one of the things I've tried to practice is the art of the rephrase. So, Chris, what you were saying was to make sure that I'm clear on what said, where I struggle, and I think this topic. This. I need. I need to hear your answer on this, because when. When I'm talking, I find it. What did you hear me say? That sounds a little aggressive.

[A]

Aggressive.

[B]

So how do you. Is there a test for a clarity test that as a leader, you learned. How do I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That people are. That they are clear. Is there something you've seen? Is it something you experience? Or do you just keep saying it till they can't possibly not be clear?

[C]

Yeah, I think. You know, I wish. I wish I figured this out. I wish I have this figured out. I don't really have it figured out in today's world because I think there's so many people that are so fearful about their position in the organization that when the leader comes in and says something, especially if it's a strong leader like the three of us, it comes into an organization, they just agree.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Because disagreement. Disagreement could be. Disagree.

[A]

Perry will say it's. It's salute and stay mute. That's right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And that's not what. I don't. I don't invite that in, but I think my personality invites that in. My leadership tries not to invite that in. So I haven't really figured that out except to give them. I want to. I just want to give them the openness to. To. To gain more clarity.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I. I don't like to say.

[A]

Are you very. All right.

[C]

Are you guys clear on what I'm saying? Because most people are gonna do what you said. Yes, sir.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes, sir. I'm afraid if we're not. But I do. After you have to repeat it over and over and over again. Like, we have a. We have a thing. We divide everything up into quarters. So each quarter we have a theme. So every quarterly meeting. In every meeting that we have, whether it's marketing teams meeting, that quarterly theme is talking about those. That sandwich. I'll talk about. This is what we're talking about in every meeting. And we're getting clarity around that. So it's just repeatable all the time and we're hoping that it sticks like Velcro.

[A]

I love that. One of the things that, you know, Perry and I base this entire content off of is the five levels of leadership. What, what Greg's talking about right here. Fall in the level three bucket of producing not only individually as a. Individually as a leader, but also in and through your team, but also developing people. And even just in some of the conversations, you can see we're driving for results of the team, but also we are making sure that our team is. We're learning how they think, how they communicate. You're holding each other accountable to that communication and you're helping develop those that are going into meetings with you. That example you just talked about, if it's a marketing meeting. Right. Your director of marketing, you get on the same page for the meeting. Make sure we circle up at the end of the meeting. Like those things are developing that person as a leader. And so I would say that as individual contributors and. Or teams. Right. It's beneficial for us to help them learn how to think. Yep. To help them learn how to execute. And this is a great way.

[C]

I was in a meeting the other day was like so awesome for me to hear is that we were dialoguing about some new ideas and doing some things and one of our, one of the teammates popped up and said, that's, that's, that's not who we are.

[A]

Oh, right.

[C]

And I thought, my gosh, that's what you want. Oh, my gosh. I wrote him a note. You know, I, I do this water buffalo thing that Chris knows about and I sent him a little water buffalo thing and just said, man, you're, you're, you're. You're making us bad by that statement.

[A]

That.

[C]

That's the. If you can get that right there,

[B]

that's a good indicator. That's the win. Those kind of feel like a level three conversation. This clarity where results. So that your key. I've got the good relationship with you, but I really want to make sure that we're all moving aggressively in the right direction. Is this from a 5 level? This must have changed your leadership. As you figure this out. I'm thinking any leader that's figured out really changes your leadership. You do level two really well. You've got good relationship. I'm helping you. I care about you. You can trust me. But at level three, I'm going to ask hard things of you. Mishra but I want to. That they more want to go there and they're more apt to be. And this example you said somebody stand up. That's not who we are. That's a level three moment.

[A]

Yeah, it is. Right there. Well, one of our favorite things when we have guests is you take them through a rapid fire.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And so I'd love you to put him on the hot seat. He's already cost us to go longer than 20 minutes, so we apologize. We should be wrapping up pretty soon. Hang with us. But let's give him some rapid fire leadership questions and then I'll wrap us up.

[B]

Is there a leadership habit you've added because of this lesson?

[C]

Yeah, I would say yes. I've. I spent a lot more time post meetings reviewing that look like that that I.

[B]

That's a good takeaway.

[A]

I've never reviewed a transcript of how I communicated something in a meeting. Like that was one of my big takeaways.

[B]

Was I ask you. Our habit in most of us is we go to a meeting and then we rush to another meeting and. Yeah, another. Are you leaving time or you want to use.

[C]

Do this Seven minutes.

[A]

So I don't know why.

[C]

I don't know why it's seven minutes. But you.

[B]

But you shorten meetings or you.

[C]

I just got a gap of seven minutes. My assistant knows it's. We call it the seven minute rule. So after every meeting is seven minutes. It's just a buffer of seven minutes. I don't know why it's seven. I think maybe it took me seven minutes one time to do it. I don't always use the whole seven. It's better than five.

[A]

It.

[C]

It screws up the calendar, which I like. Makes the timing weird.

[A]

You know I have a meeting with Greg at 10:16.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The meetings are on the 15s.

[B]

Right. But.

[C]

But the. But the seven minute. And it's. Just read the transcript. What did I miss? Sometimes I know what. I've gotten to the point now, period, where I know what. I know where I missed it and I just review that. So you know I don't have an explanation. I wish it was some.

[A]

That's great.

[C]

I love that great answer.

[B]

But is there a question you ask more frequently now that than you did before because of this?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think I. I just ask. It's really about me. It is. Do I have the right people in the room?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Sometimes we call meetings and we got all these people in the room and we've got the wrong. We don't have every. We don't have the right people in the room. All right, we need less people, more people, different people. So the question I ask before every meeting is I look at the meeting, it's been set up and I go, okay, look at the list. All right, are those the right people doing it? I just did that yesterday. I said to my assistant, Annie, let's add this person, take this person out and, and move that forward. That's because that's about clarity.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You're not going to get clear if you got the wrong people in the room.

[B]

Yeah. You talk about the seven minute rule and afterwards, but is there a warning sign in the moment that you've noticed that would tell you I have a clarity problem?

[C]

Yeah, because I, I have the honor, the distinct honor of my team being 90 female. You know exactly, exactly when you've said something that was not clear. And I can, that's the, that's the, the benefit of I, I don't, I usually don't have a lot of notes when I pretty prepared. My memory is good. So I'll just come in and I can see their faces and I'll know. I just know based on the look on their face. I know them enough to know that.

[B]

But that's a good point about, go back to five levels. If you did a really good job of getting level two so that they want to be on your team and you know who they are, you know what, how. And you can sense things, that something's off here, something's wrong. I saw your face, you twitched. And having the courage to say, yeah, you seem like you didn't get that or you seem like I said something then.

[C]

So it's like, not to belabor this answer, but just to say, like, I've got a couple of, of my great team members who are moms and they have kids and, and I can see if I've communicated something that wasn't clear was very overwhelming to them. And they're going, they're going to a thousand different other places of how this impacts them and their time. But I know them well enough to know I need to make this clear for them and what their stages.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Right. That's good.

[B]

Last one. Is there a piece of advice you'd give your younger self now that you know this lesson?

[C]

Married my wife a lot sooner. I've done a lot sooner.

[A]

So that you assure clarity in the rest of your.

[C]

Clarity in the rest of my life. I, you know, I just think the piece of advice would be, man, just slow down a little bit, you know, Just slow down, settle in to your. To your leadership. You're in the position for a reason.

[A]

Right. And.

[C]

And just settle into it.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. Again, even slowing down to be able to read the transcripts. And I love the question because Perry's seen me leaving meetings and running the meetings. And then when do you have time to remember? Back to that.

[B]

Yeah, back.

[A]

And you don't take that.

[B]

Reflect after action review. None of that.

[A]

Yeah, no.

[C]

He will play golf together, and he'll get in his car so quick, and I'm like, you need to review that golf game. That thing is so ugly. Like, you need to really. You need to really. Because we're not doing this again. There's got to be a plan.

[A]

All right, listen, Wade, who's running our board, but he wants you back. Every. Perry, I'm out. Okay. The reason I'm doing that is because I got to get as far away from that game as possible to forget it as I wrap up many of us leaders. And Greg, man, thank you for just great content. Right. Man, when we have confusion, it's going to lead to failure. And so even if you have momentum, as we talked about, you still may have some confusion. And then the whole re. Another lesson I learned today, the whole re is going to show back up if we have that. And so, man, some of the most effective, strongest leaders, you just don't create momentum. You got the clarity on the front end, so there's not confusion. That creates the momentum headed in the right direction. When you figure that out, to Greg's points today, some systems that he uses and has built, when you figure that out, man, they know where they're going. They know why it matters. It's a sandwich, right? What success looks like, that's what we got to strive for. And do it in your own way. We're all wired a little bit differently. Okay. And so you. You may not be a Galvanizer. I'm not a Galvanizer. But how do I strive for clarity using. What I love about what you shared was the principles work no matter what type of leader you are. Perry and I are often with teams, and we'll do some team development, training. They're like, what's the best profile? Working genius? This. That More leaders you've worked with, and we just simply look at them and go, it's yours.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Learn how to authentically lead and strive for clarity through authenticity of why and where the team's going.

[C]

Good.

[B]

So fantastic. Well, thank you, Greg.

[A]

Thank you, guys.

[B]

This has been very enlightening. I hope that you all enjoyed. I highly recommend that you go download the Learner guide for this episode and collect those notes. Review those. I think there's a lot of great nuggets that are here. You can do that as well as learn about our other offerings, the five Levels of Leadership, as well as our other podcast offerings. You do all [e-mail] executive podcast, as Chris mentioned earlier. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you. Very grateful you'd spend this time with us. That's all today from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.

[A]

Sam.