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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast, where our goal is to help you increase your reputation as a leader, increase your ability to influence others, and increase your ability to fully engage your team to deliver remarkable results. Hi, I'm Perry. Holly a Maxwell leadership facilitator and coach.
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And I'm Chris Cody, executive vice president with Maxwell Leadership. Welcome and thank you for joining today. Super excited to have Dr. Greg Steale back with us today. And I'm just going to tell you this. If you missed last week's episode, we, we got a standing ovation from Wade, who is our technician and runs the board. So Perry and I, we've done this over 400 times. That's never happened.
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B
So I didn't know Wade was here.
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I didn't know that. And so clapping.
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That's right.
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So I want you to go back and listen to that. It was a really good lesson with great content. You'll hear a little bit more about about Greg, but Greg is one of our peers. Our executive vice president here of our nonprofit, does a phenomenal job, is super passionate, has his doctorate in organizational leadership and a passionate about strategic leadership. He mentioned last episode, too. I love this. He's a disruptor of all things inside organizations. And sometimes I'll even go to him because I'll be like, hey, what would you do here? Right? And, and so we talked a lot about that and had a great conversation. I want to encourage you to go back and take a listen to that. It'll add value to you and your team around clarity. Well, today we're going to talk about systems and today's topic. We asked Greg for a topic and it said systems beat heroics. And I was like, well, I want to be heroic. Right? Like, and even maybe a little bit of a generational thing. We're like, we work hard, we work late. We put more hours in than everybody. Doesn't that work all the time? And so we're going to talk a little bit about how it doesn't and it shouldn't and you shouldn't lead that way and want your team to be there. So we're super excited. Greg, thanks for being back with us again today. Appreciate all you do, not only here at Maxwell Leadership, but in the community. And we've known each other a long time. So grateful for you.
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B
Thank you. Great. Well, I'm interested at this topic. I concur. We all want to be known as the hero from time to time. I want to. I want to be the answer man. Come to me with your problems. Home and at work. I mean, I want. I'm the guy that's right.
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I love that.
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Probably not a winning. Tell me about this. Tell me about this. I think I know where this is going, but share with our audience what you've noticed.
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C
Yeah. Thanks, Perry. It's good. It's. It's great to be back with you guys. It took me 406 episodes to get to the first one and only one episode to get to the second one.
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B
I see progress.
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C
There's progress there, right?
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This will be the last.
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C
That's. That's progress. I think when you recognize a hero, you have him back. Yeah. So we live. You guys are right. We all want to be heroes. That's not necessarily always born out of insecurity, though. Some could say that lots of times it's just born out of. That's a driver, Right? You want. You want to. You want to be that person, Right? But you guys know this. Anything that's built on. Built around a person. Right? Around a person, if there's not a system there to support that organization, it's just not sustainable. And we've seen that in culture, in many areas where you've seen a leader fall, right. Whether it's a country or an organization or a religious organization, whatever it is. And there was no system built to sustain the fall.
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That's good. Yeah.
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C
And so heroism is something we champion, and we really don't champion systems enough.
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A
You know, it's. It's. When I said a generational thing, I was thinking about, you know, I mean, my. My parents just worked long, long hours, right? And so that's kind of how I showed up at work. And that's how you solve problems. And as an executive, as a leader. But maybe you're listening to this or you're leading a team. There's no doubt we've celebrated that on our team, Right? Like, part of what I do is I lead a sales team, and the end of the month is coming, right? Perry's phrase of Tuesdays are coming, right? Like, the end of the month is coming and the big deal closes. And we celebrate that because they were working till 11:59 at the end of the month to get that. Or maybe it was somebody who was on email all weekend and sending out spreadsheets and data, right? Like, so we have done that, and what ends up happening is we allow that as a leader to just perpetually continue to happen. So then the heroics keep showing up, and then the systems have never gotten fixed, Right? So in your experience, either as a leader or maybe even as a follower on teams that you've been before. What comes to mind there of that we need to be aware of. What have you seen? What have you experienced about letting that. That heroism live through the organization versus the structure of it?
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Yeah. And again, I want to be clear. I'm not saying that you don't. You organizations can't have dynamic leaders or a dynamic leader.
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Right.
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I mean, Maxwell, we have probably the most dynamic leader you're ever going to meet.
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Right.
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But what has happened in the organization John has created for the last 50 years, we're going to celebrate 50 years John has been in leadership. There's been a system created around John.
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Right.
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There's been a system underneath John supporting John's. John's personality and John's leadership. And what John does out there in the world for us and in that system is not always exactly right. There's iterations of systems. And what I have found to be true is let. Let the system create the hero, not the hero. Create the system.
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Right.
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Let the system create the hero. Let the system be built in a way, Perry, that it rises up. Those leaders who can get the job done quickly, who can get it done with efficiency and excellence, expand on that more.
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Give an example. I think that's really. I don't want anybody to miss this because I hadn't thought about. Develop a system that empowers the heroes.
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Yeah. Develop a system that creates heroes. Right. Too many times people come into an organization and they're the person that's going to change it. I'm going to change everything.
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Right.
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And so what do they immediately do? They change the system and what happens goes down.
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Right.
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What you've got to do is come in. Mark Cole gave me this advice. It was great. When I first came in, he said, Take 90 days. Don't change a thing. Don't touch a thing.
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Right.
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Just get to know the system, get to know the people. So what I did is I then began to say, okay, well, let me start to tinker with the system. Let's create a system. Right. And then it allowed my leadership and leadership of others to rise. But too many times, leaders want to come in and be the person that changes everything.
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Yeah. It reminds me of a recent story you shared with your team. Part of a system that you've put in place is to take a team and drop them into associations or different environments. And I remember you telling me saying, man, they killed it. Right? Like the team, they were the heroes. They. They killed it, but they killed it because the system that was set up to put them in to be able to thrive, it wasn't that that individual found that place, found that went and did it. Right. And they were the hero. And I think that's super important for us to pay attention to because people are going to come and go.
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Yep.
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And what is the organization? How do they keep. How do they keep moving through?
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Well, I heard a leader one time say systems dictate behavior. Behaviors don't dictate systems.
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Yeah.
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The system you create for your organization will dictate that behavior of your people. If you create a system of fear, guess what? Your people will be fearful.
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Yeah. Right.
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If you create a system of efficiency, a system of clarity, a system of mission, you'll have a behavior of all those things. So the leader has to understand. You don't want, you do not want the organization to reflect you as the hero. That would be from. For me, that would be a disaster. Yeah. I want them to. Their behavior to reflect the system we have collaborately created.
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Yeah. That's good.
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Now, do you, in your experience, do you feel like. I think I see this a lot in the coaching work I do that leaders kind of celebrate the hero mindset.
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No doubt.
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Yeah. Why does, why is that?
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Well, I mean, it's. That's. We talked about this earlier, before, I think before Chris got here because he was really late. But we, we talk about Superman.
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Right.
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Think about Superman movies. Right. Superman ultimate. He's like the ultimate hero for. In the, in the movie world.
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Right.
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You were talking about. We were talking about Superman came up.
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Yeah, we were. Your problem is you can't get off the ground. So we, we, we celebrate Superman.
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Yeah.
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Okay. And these, these communities they call Superman. Superman come to the rescue.
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Right.
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And my whole thing was, well, if you just would create a system to handle whatever's coming, you wouldn't need Superman. Right. But we rely on that because it takes effort to create a system. It doesn't. To celebrate somebody who comes and saves the day. Right, right.
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Right.
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That's why we celebrate it, because it all comes down to the effort we want to put into that.
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Yeah. I also want to say we're not saying at times it's not going to take a little bit of extra effort.
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100%. Right.
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But we need to make sure that that is not what is happening the majority of the time, because you are going to have to pull late nights at times, you are going to have to work on the weekends, you are going to have to get on a plane and go international and you're going to have to press, but it can't be the norm. Right?
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Yeah.
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So you're leading an organization. What are some of the signs that you go, man, it is not about the system, it's about the people. Like what's showing up to you as a leader, where you're sitting back and you're thinking about the organization, you're thinking about the team and you're like, I got to fix this. Because it's too much about the heroics of our people and not the system and the structure that you've built.
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Yeah. I think especially in the nonprofit world, you want to celebrate the big check that came in or you want to celebrate the movement of, of the mission
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and lives of people.
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We want to celebrate those things.
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Right.
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But where I start to realize that it's getting a little, little sideways is when people are really celebrating more their role in that than the outcome. Yeah, right. When you hear a lot of eyes. Yeah, a lot of these.
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Yeah.
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Right. And that, that I start to realize a little bit. I've tried in my leadership to really push it all down to the team. And, and I'm, I'm not looking to be on the stage or I'm not looking to make it about me or I'm really trying to make it about them. But when they, when we, and I'm, I'm a very blunt communicator with my team, direct. If I hear, if I hear a lot of eyes, I'm calling people out on that. I'm hearing a lot of eyes, guys. I'm not hearing a lot of they's. I don't even want to hear wheeze. When you're talking about mission. I don't even want to hear wheeze. I want to hear they.
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Yeah, I like that.
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Most leadership training inspires people for a moment, but it doesn't change how organizations operate. At Maxwell Leadership, we take a different approach. We partner with organizations to build leadership as a system. Aligning your culture, equipping your leaders and driving measurable results. From executive coaching to enterprise wide training, everything we deliver is designed to create lasting behavioral change, not just good intentions. Because leadership isn't a one time event, it's a capability your organization must build. Take the first step. Download the free 5 Levels of Leadership field guide at 5levelsofleadership.com and get the framework, the self assessment and the succession planning tools your organization needs to develop leaders at every level. That's five levelsofleadership.com.
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Do you think I'm a little Sensitive because you're a hero, because you do work.
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You remind me of Superman. Yes, Barry. Yes.
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I'm a little sensitive to the word system because at home, my wife. Something's going out of whack. And I said, you need.
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We're about to go down a completely different path right now. Hang on.
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I said, you need a system. And a system could be a notepad and a pen and a calendar. But when I say system, she says, it's a complicated. You make it sound like it's this big, hairy, audacious working generation. And so I said, for some people, the word system. Can you just quickly. Is there an example? How simple can a system be? There are complex systems, obviously.
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Yep.
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But this word, before we go any further.
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Yep, that's good.
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Well, I'm sensitive because she says, quit saying that. You're making it. It's too complicated. It doesn't have to be complicated. No, but it has to be something. It has to be a structure.
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Yeah. I would say this. I give you a visual. I. I call systems the same as guardrails. So we lived in. In the mountains, North Carolina, for. For years, and for, I don't know, six or seven years, we lived up there.
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And.
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And once you live there a couple of years, you start to navigate the mountain roads, and you get a little speed going on those roads, like you can get around those curves. I can tell you this. I went around the curves a lot faster when there was a guardrail that kept me from going over the edge. My wife is very much like that. The word systems, the word organization, the word clean, the word cook, the word. There's a lot of words she doesn't like that I can throw out there. But if I say systems to her, her mind would melt. What I've said is, listen, let me help you create some guardrails.
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Yeah, that's good.
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Right around. What you're trying to do that are going to keep you from going over the edge, but also keep things from coming in. That's what guardrail does. It keeps you from going over the edge, but it also keeps trees and stuff from coming in. Right. Let me create guardrails. So I think systems and organizations create. They're more guardrails than anything. Right. That's what I've tried to communicate.
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I love that. And I use that analogy. But I also know guardrails, unless it's really dangerous, they're not right up next to the road. That's right. They're right up next to where the danger is.
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That's Right.
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So you can go off the road in some places before you hit the garter. So you have some freedom and some flexibility. But in the end of the day, there's a structure.
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Yeah, that's a great point.
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That's there to do that. So I just wrote down some of the signs you might look for. I wonder if. Are these consistent with what you're seeing around firefighting, constant firefighting or repeated emergencies? Everything kind of becomes an emergency. Mishap, handouts, maybe burnout from people, key person dependency. You're depending on one key person all the time. Leaders constantly rescuing the execution when it's coming off the rails. These have kind of become normal. I'm thinking, I'm thinking of some times, some teams I've had where this was. This was daily activity or even some
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coaching calls you're on. They get on the coach call and you're like, there's three of these they're dealing with right now that you got to kind of walk them through. It's become the norm. Yeah, it's become the norm. So with. With heroics. Let's talk about this. I want to go back real quick to the mountain. Not only did your wife. She was fashioned with guardrails, but boy, she wore those brakes out like every.
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Every six months, brakes and tires. I mean, every six months, brakes and tires.
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But she was getting after it because the guardrails.
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But she looked good in the car. She really all that matters.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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A
So let's say you. You talked a little bit about language, common language, just a few minutes ago about, hey, it's not.
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D
I.
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If I hear it, I'm going to call it out. And I love the. It's not even. It's not even the we. It's the they that you're looking for. Love that advice. Let's say there's somebody that's listening and they go, man, I got a lot of this going on right now. My team, my organization, where do they start? Where would you recommend that they start attacking first to eat this elephant, you know, one bite at a time in order to get them to. It's not about the people. It's about the system or the mission of the organization.
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C
Yeah, well, one thing I would say is it's all in use. Common language, a word that we don't use in the nonprofit, at least around me, they may say it. When we don't use the word problem, there are no problems. There's only opportunities. There are no problems. When you begin to see things as problems. So when you're making your list and you go, that's a problem. That's a problem. That's a problem. Problems are overwhelming, man.
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So language matters.
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It is language matters. When you're talking about systems, language matters. Building systems is all about the opportunities you're creating or the opportunities that you're confronting, Right? Because that's all a problem is, is an opportunity to solve that, to get better. A problem is something you sits there over and over and over and over again, Right?
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Yeah.
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And so we. In no meetings, you'll hear it. You'll hear it all the time. People will say, hey, we've got a real opportunity here.
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Right?
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We're down in donations or whatever. The team's complete energy around building a system around that changes. It completely changes because it becomes positive. Hey, why don't we do this and we can do this and I'll, you know, my admin people are pulling up list. And so the whole energy changes around that phrase. And so to your point, Chris, when they're going, man, I've got this, this, and this, I would look at everything as an opportunity. And what are the two or three ones that you look at? You go, I think we could build a really easy system around that right there.
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So for clarity, not using the word problem, but you said something. You said systems are created to take advantage of opportunities. To what, frame that for me just a little bit differently so that I can understand the. The problem, the opportunity and then where. Systems.
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Yeah. So if you. Let's say you have an opportunity here, right? You've got. You've got your. Your revenues down. That's an opportunity. A lot of leaders come and say, we got a problem. Revenues down. Everybody goes, you said, we got an opportunity here. Revenues down. What are we going to do? Everybody then starts to come up with a method to solve that, right? That's a system. That's what a method is. A method is a system because you go, we've got to do this for sales and marketing's got to change. And there becomes a flow to that. There become guardrails around the revenue, right? That we can't do this anymore. So we got to build a guardrail around that. We can't do this anymore. We got to do something different. So just that one thing begins to generate what opportunities are going to help us, right? Create a system. How do we create a system around it?
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What would heroics say to that? We have an opportunity, Revenue's down. What would a heroic.
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Well, heroic wouldn't come in and say, there's Opportunity heroic would come in and say, there's a problem. Here's my idea.
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Yeah, we're going to work later and
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this is what we're going to do.
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We're going to stay later.
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This is what we're going to do. We're going to work later. We're going to work harder. Nobody's working hard enough. Our sales team stinks. Marketing. There's not good enough leads. Listen, how many times do I hear a salesperson go, the leads stink. How many times do I hear a marketing person go, sales guy can't close. Right. That's the nature of where you're at. Right. The deal is you don't have a problem on both ends. You have an opportunity to collaborate together to create a system where that gets better.
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Yeah. I was just thinking, okay, go ahead. I am, I am.
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I'm blowing his mind. We have conversations about this all the time.
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Yeah. And so here's. You just said something, though.
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So you still know the Superman thing.
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Yeah, yeah, I still imagine.
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Yeah.
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There are leaders that 100% think that heroics and extra work and hard work are the way to solve all opportunities that present yourself. And until you figure that out and you become self aware that that's your mo, that's your go to, unfortunately, the rest of your team is going to model that exact same thing. And so the rest of the team then thinks, well, I've got to be a hero. I've got to solve. And you are unintentionally creating a team and a culture of people going, I've got to work harder. I've got to show up late. I've got to. And so it just hit me in thinking about some leaders, that light's always on. Back when you were growing up, Motel 6 or the Lantern, the door on the outside.
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Not the light, just the lantern.
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A
So I'm just sitting there thinking about this. And we say all the time, Perry and I talk about that leadership is contagious and it's a visual sport. And so if you're trying to be a hero, more plans, deeper plans, bigger scope, more hours. And you get your team doing that, it feels like it shifts into. It's just. I'm just kind of processing.
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C
And I would say this, this is a challenge. There's a challenge for people out there because there are people that are gonna listen to this and go, I know, man, but I gotta have that guy. I gotta have that guy or that. That girl to come in and change this. They gotta disrupt it. They gotta do it right here's. The deal. Anybody that you hire. This is a. I have. I have learned this about heroism and heroes. When they give you their resume, remember what the resume is. It's a re. Zoom. What you did right. That's what. Back to our re.
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Yeah, this is another promo for our first one.
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B
Yes.
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Last week, you got to go. We learned a ton about leadership principles around the word re.
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C
Anybody that you're going to hire should. When you say, hey, listen, you know, you're interviewing for this position, you should give them an opportunity that we have right now to get better in our organization. I need you to ask me, how would you solve that? And what they should do is they should ask you 10 to 15 questions more about that opportunity than how they would solve it. They have no idea how they would solve it. That's your first sign to go. I want somebody to come in that's going to research more about what the opportunity is and help me as a team build the system around that. That's what questions do. Questions build systems.
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Yeah.
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B
So if I'm listening to this now, I'm. And I'm. I have like a. Oh, no moment of. My organization is completely dependent on heroics. What would you tell that leader to start? How. What would you do? You got to admit it first, I'm guessing. But yeah, you say you got to see the signs of what we. We were talking about. Everything's a fire, everything's an emergency. One person's got to be here. What do you do?
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C
Well, you've got to do an audit of it first. Right. Because sometimes it's not as bad as you think it is.
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B
Right.
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C
You just may. You're listening this now, and somebody's popping in your brain or you're, you know, so go back and go. What systems do we have right now that are working? Every organization has systems that are working. I mean, no, you wouldn't be in business. What systems are working? Why are they working? Okay. More than likely, they're working at the absence of heroism. Okay. How do we take that system and duplicate it around the people that are in this position? Right. So again, look at the opportunity, not the. Not the problem. Look at the opportunity you have of what is working now, and what do we need to take from there to. To duplicate into this system and just make incremental changes towards that? That's the lack of heroism. When you recognize that, first you go, okay, I don't need to be the hero. I'm going to let the system rescue the situation.
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B
Yeah.
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A
We spend a lot of time as I wrap up talking about how do we scale what we do? And I think this is another, this is very reflective for me, even myself. I'm thinking scale is like I'm just going to work harder, I'm just going to produce more. I'm just going to. Right. And, and you need, you need adrenaline to do that. And, and great leaders like heroics and you're going to need them at times. But exceptional leaders will build a system that will just continue to repeat that. What we need that meaning that meaning whatever that is to drive results. That's how you scale whatever you're doing. And so if you, if you look at your organization and then you back up and you get into the weeds, you figure out how do I scale everything that we're doing by building systems. By the time you get to the top of that funnel, then you're scaling your organization at 10x, which you love to do. Right. You love to disrupt everything in that. So my challenge is back to what Greg was saying and Perry were talking about. There are systems there. Are they working? If they're not, let's fix them and look and identify. Take an audit of where you see language. That's I have this, I'm going to fix that and then figure out how do you step in? Because our job as leaders, what is to come in? Remove roadblocks, help with resources. Well, part of that is building a system to be able to do that. And so, man, when you do that, I think that the sky's the limit, not only for the organization, but your leadership and the influence that you'll have with those that are under your leadership. And it's not all about extra hours. We got to work. I'm not saying this is not, this is not.
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C
Let's not go to three day work week.
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A
I'm not going there. I'm just saying it's not that, but it's really taking a look at buildable. And the other thing for me to take away was systems to. What's your point? Right. About at home, they don't need to be complicated. Some are and technology is involved and other things. But it could be a pad of paper, it could be something simple. Right? But it can be simple. It doesn't have to be complicated.
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B
Right. I really like what you just added. I was thinking this, but I know we try to do this a lot. We try to 2x something and we just, we go into hero mode to. We do more. We do, yeah. But 10x mode, you got to do something different. You have to have a system. Your organs, your systems can only take you to the new, higher level. So I love that ad. Thanks for being here.
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A
Yeah, absolutely, man.
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C
This was great.
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A
Yeah. Thank you.
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C
Am I back next week too? Or is this
- [25:13]
A
needs a break for a little bit?
- [25:15]
C
And so when we take a poll, you know, and see and then whatever they say, let's let the people you like to vote. Yeah. Mom. Mom.
- [25:23]
A
Mom.
- [25:23]
C
Mom.
- [25:23]
A
And Monica, would you like to send in a vote?
- [25:25]
C
Click, click, click.
- [25:26]
B
All right, back here. We are grateful and we'll talk behind your back when you're going to come back. But just a reminder, if you would you really want to get the learner guide for this week and last week? I think you'll really enjoy that. The notes that are there for that. You can also learn about our other offerings or other podcasts. You can do all that@maxwellleadership.com executive podcast. You can also leave us a comment or a question there. We love hearing from you. Very grateful you spend this time with us today. That's all from the Maxwell Leadership Executive Podcast.