← Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
20 Signs You Might Be Neurodivergent. The Danger of Online Self-Diagnosis and How Better Understanding Our Brains Can Improve Our Lives.
01:09:56
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- [00:00]
A
Are you really special or are you psychopathologizing yourself?
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B
We're going to explore a topic today that affects between 15 and 20% of the people in the world. It impacts every aspect of your life.
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A
More and more people are identifying as neurodivergent.
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Many neurodivergent people feel like they sense energy.
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A
They are technically opening up pathways that make them more available to tune into other things. It's a superpower to be able to feel deeply.
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B
Some of the greatest advancements in our culture have been made by people who think and see things that do not yet exist.
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A
Tell me you're neurodivergent without telling me you're neurodivergent. Emily Dickinson Albert Einstein Billie Eilish Bill Gates Simone Biles Tom Holland Selena Gomez Leonardo DiCaprio Megan Fox how do you find out if you're neurodivergent? One of our favorite things to do here is to find a quiz. Take out your pencils everyone. Number one do you often find.
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MayimBialix breakdown was supported by Mint Mobile.
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Sell your car in minutes. False. That's gotta be true again. Carvana will pick up your car from your door, or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines. Sounds too good to be true. So true. Finally caught on. Nice job. Honesty isn't just their policy. It's their entire model. Sell your car today too, Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Hi, I'm Imbialik.
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And I'm Jonathan Cohen.
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A
And welcome to our breakdown. One of the things we love here at MyAmbiologics, breakdown is how different we all are and how special we all are. But the question we're going to ask today is, are you really different? Are you really special? Or are you psychopathologizing yourself as a cultural mirror reflects back to you what you think you want to hear.
- [03:34]
B
We are going to explore a topic today that affects between 15 and 20% of the people in the world today. It impacts every aspect of your life, including work, relationships, and how you feel about yourself.
- [03:51]
A
If you've been told that you're neurodivergent, or if someone has said to you, here's the reason, it's because I'm neurodivergent. This episode is for you. We're gonna talk about what is happening in the brain when people say I'm neurodivergent. We're gonna talk about the umbrella that neurodivergence is, see what falls under it, and talk about some of the challenges of using self diagnosis and this kind of terminology for very, very personal and intimate ways that we function in the world.
- [04:21]
B
You may be discovering a superpower, or you may be in a psychosomatic social contagion with all the online quizzes that could be leading you astray.
- [04:32]
A
Well, we're here to give you as much of a definitive explanation of neurodivergence as we can. We're also going to talk about what's awesome about being neurodivergent. What's it like to live with a different set of abilities and an opening to potential superpowers.
- [04:47]
B
We're going to explore how so many people who fall on the neurodivergent spectrum have access to thinking differently, to feeling differently, have more connection to spiritual experiences, sensing energy, intuition, and even psychic abilities.
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A
We're also going to be talking about how things like social anxiety, sensory processing disorder, even being an empath fall under this neurodivergent Umbrella. And we're very interested in all of the overlapping similarities and what we can understand about the human experience from each of these particular diagnoses.
- [05:23]
B
We hope this episode really helps you better understand yourself, giving you a guide to the landscape and helping you know how to embrace your natural gifts and abilities while getting the support for the areas that you need support in.
- [05:38]
A
One of our favorite things to do here, especially in Mayim and Jonathan exclusive episodes, is to find a quiz that helps us better understand ourselves and really increase the ability of us to have a conversation about what exactly are we diagnosing, what needs to be refined, and what can we learn about ourselves. We know a lot of you out there identify as neurodivergent and have had questions about neurodivergence. So Jonathan and I are going to get into it. Jonathan, let's talk neurodivergence. Break it down. So let's start here. You know, on social media, the term neurodivergent or neurospicy has become kind of a shorthand for anyone who's feeling out of sync with the mainstream. And that can be in a variety of ways. And we'll talk about some of those examples. But really for people who, who process the world differently, relate to the world, or relate to other people differently, or even have a senso system that seems a little bit different than other people, that's sort of what, you know, this term has, has been helpful for. We're going to talk about why this notion of difference resonates so deeply and ways to sort of view it as, you know, maybe some sort of evolutionary adaptation with an openness for creativity, for intuition. And we're also going to talk about how neurodivergence is often misinterpreted. I think what I'm curious about is how big is this umbrella? How big should the umbrella be and what does it mean? And from a scientific perspective, we're gonna talk about some of those variations. More and more people are identifying as neurodivergent, often outside of formal diagnosis. So there's actually a list that I'd like to present of disorders, syndromes, disabilities that all fall under the umbrella of neurodivergent.
- [07:32]
B
Before MIME reads this list, which is fascinating, I'm gonna bring my non scientific perspective that may get some hate right, because I believe that this entire list is an attempt to quantify and qualify what is different, that for so long we've been living in societies that expected children and people to behave in a certain way. And that if you fell Outside of that bell curve, then you were unacceptable in some way. And we were going to adjust you so that you could sit at your desk, so you could work in the factory, so that you could be a good contributor to society in the way that it was determined that you should exist. And I think now more than ever, people are freed from that expectation that a lot of the constraints of society have been lifted and people are discovering, wait a second, I can talk about feeling differently. I can talk about sensing the world differently, more so than ever before. Everyone has a voice to have an individual experience, that it is okay. It is if you fall outside the middle of the bell curve.
- [08:50]
A
So people who are neurodivergent, these are the categories that people often are identifying with that neurodivergent label. So people on the autism spectrum disorder. Some could argue that everyone on the autism spectrum disorder is neurodivergent, but not everyone who's neurodivergent is on the autism spectrum disorder. ADHD is another one which can occur, you know, both with autism or separately. If you have adhd, chances are you, you, you fall under this umbrella of neurodivergent dyscalculia, which is difficulty with math. Dysgraphia, which is difficulty with writing. Dyslexia, challenges with reading, dyspraxia, which is difficulty with coordination. If you have a sensory processing disorder, that is neurodivergence, social anxiety is listed as under the neurodivergent umbrella. The things that, that I just listed, those are things that I think a lot of people would agree. Like, I just do things different, my brain is different, you know. But under the neurodivergent umbrella, you also see things like Tourette syndrome, you see Williams syndrome. There are some clinics that identify Prader Willi syndrome, which was the syndrome that I studied for my thesis. Even down syndrome is included under the neurodivergent umbrella. Intellectual disabilities fall under neurodivergence. Even mental health conditions and diagnoses, Bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder. So, you know, for me, when approaching this topic, that instantly presents not a problem. It presents a challenge for us because we now have a term that is enormous, really, really broad. Because what it's saying is that some, someone with, let's say, down syndrome and someone who is dyslexic would fall under the same umbrella. And obviously there are things that they're going to have in common, but that's a lot of different things going on, which is why we don't rely on one diagnosis of Neurodivergence, that's why it's not a very specific term. And we want to get more specific also to find out what resources people need. So, for example, it's not helpful for someone to tell, you know, the parent of a four year old your child's neurodivergent because that could mean autism spectrum, it could mean adhd, it could mean a sensory processing disorder, it could mean dysgraphia. So these specific categories exist for a reason. But you do. See, that's the other thing I wanted to point out. So we've got a really big term that could apply to a lot of things. Challenge number one, challenge number two, the overlap of a lot of these syndromes and diagnoses is enormous. So when you think of a classic Venn diagram, right? Two circles, maybe three, right, we're talking, there are people with autism and social anxiety and adhd, there are people with obsessive compulsive disorder who are also anxious. There's people with obsessive compulsive disorder who are not anxious, right. So the, the hesitancy I have, you know, is we want to be as specific as we can when we're speaking personally, when we're speaking clinically. But obviously, social media and these kinds of cultural conversations tend to get much broader. One of the, you know, very, very informal, you know, ways to measure this kind of thing is, you know, what's prevalence of, what are people hashtagging, what are people noting in social media circles? Now, granted, this is a, this is a very specific, you know, very imperfect research that we've done because just because people are tagging it, it doesn't mean that's more prevalent in, in the universe. It means that's what people want to talk about. So, for example, 14.5 million tags for hashtag autism, right? This is a much larger category and a much larger conversation. Especially as, you know, autism has separated out the Asperger's diagnosis and grouped it with autism spectrum disorder, which can also include Nonverbal autism, right? ADHD, 5.9 million tags, OCD 2.6 million, dyslexia has about a million tags. Other disorders like dissociative identity disorder have, have less. Let's say 244,000, Tourette's, 200,000. So autism is talked about a lot, especially in these kinds of circles. You know, there's a ton of really, really interesting and in many cases, funny, in many cases, very validating content. We pulled up some of the, you know, the kind of most, most circulated TikToks around these things. You know, the difference in what experiences are like for other people versus what they're like for people who identify as neurodivergent. Conversations about masking. Conversations about how to give your nervous system support. How do you work with your brain and not against it? What are the superpowers that are associated with some of these neurodivergent categories? One of the TikToks that I really liked showed someone remarkably doing all the things that I do. Buying plants, cleaning, organizing, rearranging furniture. Some of my favorite things to do with my brain.
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There's a running joke in our family that every time you go to Mayim's house, it looks like she may be moving out. There's a pile of things that she has reorganized, set on the curb, decided to donate, has gone through her children's childhood stuff and figured out that this is no longer needed. And you can definitely tell her benders. They're just deep levels of organization and cleaning My imbalance Breakdown is supported by.
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A
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A
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- [19:39]
A
And one of the things that I really appreciate about this notion of masking. I don't know if that's a term that people even knew to use, but if you are a neurodivergent person and you are living out in the world, there is so much that you need to feel you have to protect. I mean like, that's just what it's like. And it's funny because there's so many things that I've hidden in my life because I didn't think it was okay. We've talked about how I used to sleep with a group of rubber fish connected by a rubber band. Like when I went to camp, like, tell me you're neurodivergent without telling me you're neurodivergent. I guess even the sleeping thing, like sleeping with your hands tucked under, that's just how I sleep all the time. Didn't know it was a symbol of neurodivergence. Apparently it is. What do they call em? Dinosaur hands? T. Rex hands Always have to do that. One of the other interesting things, again, my. This is my amateur research. There are so many quizzes online that try and help you figure out if you're neurodivergent. So this indicated to me, okay, people are looking for this. Many of them require that you pay, which was another indicator. People must really be looking for this. If companies are looking to capitalize on people who are literally searching, what I did, am I neurodivergent? Free quiz. That's what I. That's what I looked up. So the other challenge, in case you couldn't guess from the list that I gave above, how do you find out if you're neurodivergent? One way would be to have a diagnosis, meaning if you've been told you're on the autism spectrum disorder, if you've been told you have ocd, if you've been identified as having a sensory processing disorder, that's a little bit your ticket into the world of neurodivergence. But I took a quiz that we won't go over here. But the funny thing is, this quiz says that it's designed to find out which kind of neurodivergent you are. And I was like, well, that's great. Who knows what I'm going to come up with this test? It told me I have Tourette's. It told me it's highly likely that I have Tourette's. Now, what's interesting to me as a neuroscientist is we have a very specific way that we clinically diagnose people who have Tourette's. If I were to take a Tourette's quiz, pretty sure I'd come up negative. But my neurodivergence test directed me towards that as my possible diagnosis. So for anyone who knows anything about Tourette's, you might be saying, okay, well, I can guess the kind of questions. Jonathan, do you have any. Do you have any guess knowing me or why it might have come up? And I'm not saying the test is, like, wrong. I do think that's a pretty bold thing for a test to be saying. Why might I have come up with Tourette's?
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B
I don't know that much about Tourette's or the classification, the requirements to fit into that box, but if I had to guess and posit that maybe you had a little sprinkle. You have a very hard time when something wants to pop out of your mouth, not having it pop out.
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A
Oh, very good. Okay, Very good. So some of the questions did focus on what level of uncomfortability I feel with certain situations in either wanting to say something, wanting to express something, not being able to kind of control, interrupting, things like that. So yes, very good, Jonathan. To me, it a little bit indicated some of the imprecision that can occur when we are looking to the Internet or to social media for specific diagnoses. So that's just like me putting my sort of like official hat on. However, I did find another test that is 20 questions that I would like to go over here. So take out your pencils, everyone. These are yes, no. So not the most precise way to do this kind of quiz, but it's a good yes, no. And I won't tell you how many yeses to be looking out for. Number one, do you often find social situations confusing or overwhelming?
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B
Okay.
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A
Do you have an intense interest in specific topics that others might find unusual or obsessive?
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B
Well, this is a hard one. Which would you say that for me?
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A
No.
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B
What would you say? For me this is a no for you?
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A
No. I'm counting how many I think you should be saying yes to. And then you and I will compare. The reason that I would say this is not that. This is a no for you, and it's an absolute yes for me. Remember when we were watching the World Series and I wanted to talk forever about all of the details? Right. And you made that face. Okay, so that's a yes for Mayim. I do have intense interest in specific topics that others might find unusual or obsessive. I mean, it's also not fair because, like, I'm a scientist, so, like, I'm trained to understand all sorts of interesting things that other people find unusual. But. But I think it goes beyond that. I could talk about Pom Poms forever. Nobody wants to hear that. Number three, do you find it hard or uncomfortable to make or maintain eye contact during conversations? Number four, do you prefer routines and get upset when your routine is disrupted? I mean, I've gotten upset three times because my routine was disrupted just in this podcast. Number five, Are you very sensitive to certain types of light, sounds or textures? Number six, do you often miss social cues or find it hard to interpret body language and facial expressions? Number seven, do you find it challenging to make friends or maintain friendships? Number eight, do you engage in repetitive behaviors or have specific rituals you feel compelled to perform?
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B
Interesting.
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A
Number nine, Are you often told that you take things too literally or have difficulty understanding sarcasm?
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B
You are very literal.
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A
Number 10, do you find it difficult to manage or understand your own emotions? Number 11. Do you often feel exhausted or anxious after social interactions? Number 12. Do you find it difficult to focus on topics that are not of interest to you? Do you experience prolonged periods of intense focus on topics or activities that are of interest to you? Number 14. Do you experience intense fascination with patterns, numbers, or categorizing information?
- [26:01]
B
That's a tough one.
- [26:02]
A
You don't have intense fascination. I mean, I'm just saying I have never seen you intensely fascinated with patterns, numbers, or category. Like, like. I will. I will learn about the Dewey Decimal System with an intensity that is unmatched. Or math. No, you're not. I mean, you have a fascination, but I wouldn't say intense. 15. Do you find abrupt changes in plans or unexpected events particularly distressing?
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B
Nope.
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A
Number 16. Have you always felt different from others or like you don't fit in? Do you have a strong sense of justice and fairness and become particularly upset when these are violated? Do you often speak at length about your interests without realizing that other people in the conversation are no longer interested? 19. Are transitions particularly challenging for you? Like transitioning out of the shower. How'd they know? Or going between home and work.
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B
That's an interesting one.
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A
And the last one. Did it feel like you needed to work harder than your peers in school to get the same grades?
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B
Okay. Em. Did you get any no's?
- [27:06]
A
Let's just say I generally can make eye contact because of my, like, actorness, but if I'm not sort of putting on, you know, the ability to make eye contact, I don't love it. Hold on. I don't, I don't miss social cues. I, I really don't. I, I am, I am over attuned to social cues. I'm over attuned to body language and facial expressions to, to an impediment, you know, level. So those are all yeses. I don't find, I don't find it difficult to understand sarcasm, but I know many people who do. Yeah. So the rest of them. That would be. That would be a yes.
- [27:52]
B
So how many?
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A
I'm at 18.
- [27:53]
B
I have. Let me just double check here. I have four and a half yeses. No, five and a half yeses.
- [28:01]
A
Well, that's fascinating because you have 11 yeses. I was being conservative and you have 11. Yes.
- [28:12]
B
I only have five and a half.
- [28:13]
A
No, you don't.
- [28:14]
B
Maybe, maybe six.
- [28:17]
A
Maybe 11. What are you.
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B
Okay, what's the cut off.
- [28:21]
A
Here we go. Here are the ones that I think. I think social situations are often confusing.
- [28:26]
B
Or overwhelming for you didn't get a yes for that. Okay, go ahead.
- [28:29]
A
You do find it uncomfortable to make eye contact in. Not in work situations, in social situations. I would say you are sensitive to light, sounds and textures.
- [28:41]
B
Yeah, that one I got. Yes for.
- [28:43]
A
I would say that it's challenging for you to make friends and maintain friendships. Not because of there's anything wrong with you or you're not social or like people or are likable, but I think because of a lot of these other features, it can be hard for you.
- [28:57]
B
If you are not into bar culture. That changes the nature of friendship as an adult because those are the places where people go and have friends.
- [29:07]
A
I don't think that it's difficult for you to understand your own emotions, but I think sometimes. Oh, you. Okay. You have a great time managing them. I do think that you find it difficult to focus on topics that are not of interest to you.
- [29:19]
B
Oh, yeah, What's. Which number was that? I had a hard yes on that.
- [29:23]
A
Yeah, that was. That was 12.
- [29:26]
B
Oh, yeah. 12 is a yes. 13 was a yes. I don't remember what 13 was.
- [29:30]
A
Prolonged periods of intense focus. Yeah. You felt different from others and like you don't fit in.
- [29:36]
B
Yep, that's 16.
- [29:39]
A
Yeah.
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B
And then 20. I had a yes for. I had to work harder than my peers to try.
- [29:44]
A
Yeah. And I think we. We know specifically why some of that is. So how many yeses are you supposed to be, you know, kind of concerned about? What this quiz recommends is that if you're answering yes to many of these and. And this is the big thing, if you answer yes to many of these and you notice trouble in work, in relationships, in life, it might be wise to talk to a specialist. If you have yeses to all of these things and you don't have any trouble in your work, your relationship, like, you don't necessarily have a problem that needs to be fixed. You may be in a job that really suits all of the things about you. You may be living in a world and in a city that suits all these things about you. If you live in a place, for example, where there's constantly a lot of noise, a lot of fire engines, a lot of sirens, things like that, you may have more trouble than someone who's, let's say, living out in the country and has the same sensitivity. So it really depends not just on are you answering yeses. Are you having trouble in areas of your life where this kind of diagnosis might then lead to more information? That's what we encourage people to look into.
- [30:51]
B
And even if you're not having Trouble. It may give a little bit of insight into what you may think was normal. So I know a lot of people who might not realize that there's some tension in social situations. They just thought that's what social situations are. They might not realize that how they function plays a role in that. So it can just help shed more light, bring more self awareness.
- [31:17]
A
I want to go into a little bit about what's awesome about being neurodivergent and what are some of the amazing things that happen when we stop seeing ourself as something to fix and seeing our brains as something to better understand. This notion of neurodivergence is a sort of cultural mirror that is held up to us that in many cases helps us understand why we sometimes seem to experience the world so intensely. Right. For those of us who either have been told or have felt that we're too much or that we feel too much, or that we're too sensitive, or for people who have been told you're experiencing things in a way that other people can't handle, this term can be very comforting because in many cases it is. It's a superpower. It's a superpower to be able to feel deeply. It's a superpower to be able to experience things deeply. But for many people, especially those who might have dyslexia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, it may not feel like a superpower in the moment. So part of this also, you know, kind of move towards understanding the broader implications of neurodivergence is, is to, to open us up to understanding what some of these other things are. So a lot of people who are dyslexic in, in the olden days, you were slapped with that label and it stayed with you forever. And now what I love about the conversation about neurodivergence is I might be dyslexic, but here's other ways that my brain works that other people's don't who are not dyslexic. What's the opening that neurodivergence is giving me? Many people do have a special spiritual connection, a different way to look at the world that brings them an intense amount of joy and perspective. Those things also come along with being neurodivergent. You know, Jonathan talks a lot about creativity. You know, linear thinking and clear thinking is very important. Rational thinking is very important. But also that's not, that's not what dreams are made of, right? Dreams are made of imagining what's not possible and, and, and thinking beyond what these four walls, you know, encourage us to. To operate in.
- [33:36]
B
Some of the greatest advancements in our culture and our society over the history of time have been made by people who think and see things that do not yet exist. They're able to imagine a future that has not yet been created and see the limits of today's society and find ways to push society forward. And doing that requires the ability to think differently. So the linear thinking that so many people are just born with or naturally do, when you're dyslexic, when you have a difference that doesn't allow you to fit in to the regular system, those gifts and abilities of being able to perceive differently, to imagine differently, to use different parts of your brain to get yourself where everyone else is going. Easily, they become more attuned and developed, and we see that over and over again. Eric Weinstein says that, you know, the people at the edges of our classrooms, often the kids that are not fitting in, that are struggling, are the ones that will help find the innovative and novel solutions that other people aren't thinking about.
- [34:51]
A
And before those of you who don't identify as neurodivergent feel bad about not being neurodivergent. It is a very large spectrum. Everybody's on some part of it. But speaking to that historical point, Jonathan, you know, there's a lot of really interesting and, you know, kind of playful, not rewriting of history, but revisiting of many historical figures throughout our history. You know, some of the most notable ones, Emily Dickinson, there's been a really interesting analysis of her poetry, her writing. And Albert Einstein, right? We used to be like, oh, nutty professor, right? Albert Einstein was dyslexic. And they believe he also likely had ADHD and was on the autism spectrum. They've obviously studied his brain after he passed away. In addition, you know, think about artists. Think about artists like Andy Warhol. They're pretty sure Andy Warhol was dyslexic and also on the spectrum. And, you know, we have this really amazing list that we pulled of actors and public folks, many of whom we've had on our podcast, who have talked about aspects of neurodivergence. So ADHD is something that we hear of a lot from creative people. You know, we've had Joel McHale on Mel Robbins, who talks about ADHD and dyslexia. Jody Sweeten talked about it with us. You know, we. We also, we've talked with people about obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Howie Mandel, Simon Helberg from the Big Bang Theory was on our podcast talking about OCD. Mara Wilson, Daryl DMC, McDaniels from Run DMC. He talked about OCD. We've had many people talk about being dyslexic and having other special abilities. Our episode with Lorna Byrne touched on that. And many of our guests have talked about, you know, either bipolar disorder, social anxiety, you know, many of these different things that all fall under that neurodivergent umbrella. Also wanted to give a shout out to Billie Eilish, who does have Tourette's syndrome and has talked about it openly. And it's really, really such an incredible, you know, fascinating journey to watch her talk about it and what her experience is with Tourette's. Many, many actors and, and, and public people are, are coming out more, they're more comfortable talking about it. Henry Winkler has done a lot with dyslexia, Bill Gates, dyslexic and adhd. He did pretty well for himself. So many actors. Ethan Hawke and Whoopi Goldberg and Anthony Hopkins, Simone Biles, Tom Holland, Selena Gomez, Leonardo DiCaprio, Megan Fox. I mean, just this list is, is unreal. Orlando Bloom, Will Smith, dyslexia. Keanu Reeves, dyslexia. Woody Harrelson has talked about adhd. Rachel Bloom has talked about adhd. Just so interesting how many people also feel comfortable to now talk about these things. I think because we're having this opening that instead of it feeling like a punishment, instead of it feeling like a shaming, it's actually something about you that in many cases we can't change. Are there behavioral things that we can adjust around it to make our lives easier, to make other people understand us? Absolutely. But as Jonathan said, we don't want to not have this diversity of processing and of the human experience. It's what makes everything so colorful.
- [38:13]
B
That's absolutely true. It's really about understanding ourselves, understanding how we function, but not always changing it. So, you know, for some people, ADD medication, ADHD medication is really helpful to help them be able to do the things they want to do. For me, when I tried it, it was not the right fit. I used it, I experimented with it, and then what I found is that certain supplements can be really helpful. Not all the time, but what I need to have a sharper level of zeroing in. Also, caffeine impacts me in certain ways. Sleep, exercise. So in all of these, I would say that it's about understanding ourselves, not necessarily fixing or, but getting the support we need when we, when we need it.
- [38:59]
A
This is a great point. Jonathan and one that leads us into a little conversation I'd like to have about neurochemistry and the brain and what's going on in the neurodivergent brain and.
- [39:09]
B
And I mind Biox Breakdown is supported by Lelo.
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A
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- [41:31]
B
Mind Bialix Breakdown is supported by Bubs.
- [41:34]
A
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- [42:15]
B
I have definitely noticed less joint pain. My hair mostly my beard feels shiny, my skin feels smoother, healthier and I've been taking Bub's Natural Collagen Peptides. It's been part of my shakes that I do and I've been finding that I'm bouncing back faster after workouts. I love it.
- [42:35]
A
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- [46:31]
B
No.
- [46:31]
A
But what we're learning is that there's so many components of metabolism. Metabolism doesn't just mean, you know, am I eating protein, am I eating carbs? It means how the body is processing everything that's coming in. Right. Emotional metabolism, psychological metabolism, all of these things are factors in symptoms of adhd, of autism spectrum diagnoses. And there are certain things you're not going to see different symptoms in, in down syndrome, but even for things like bipolar disorder, ocd, those things can spike. When you say, gosh, my OCD feels so bad this week feels so intense this week. It feels so much this week. It's likely because of other things. It could be diet, it could be sleep, it could be other metabolic processes. It could be what you're seeing on Instagram or in the news.
- [47:17]
B
It's so interesting to think about the environment that we're in and how that impacts us. So it's not simply we have a condition, we have a certain set of symptoms or ways of being, but how our entire lives. Absolutely. Sleep impact how we function. And that's true for people who are normies. And it's true especially for people who may have a difference in how they. They function.
- [47:43]
A
So the next question, which is a little harder to answer, you know, what's going on in the brain when we talk about neurodivergence? The answer is a lot of stuff, because think about the list that we talked about. If you ask me what's going on in the brain with neurodivergence, I'm gonna say, which part? Because if you ask me what's going on in the brain with autism, I can speak to that a little bit. If you ask me what's going on with adhd, I can speak to that a little bit. It's going to be different than autism. There might be some overlap. Then if you're going to ask me about anxiety, that's also something different in the brain. What about sensory processing disorders? Also different in the brain. So this is like a little bit of like, spoiler alert. I can't tell you one thing that's going on in the brain for neurodivergence, because we need to know what kind of neurodivergence we're talking about. So the more specific we can get, the more interesting I think the conversation can Become it's beyond the scope of what we're going to cover here, but my hope is that we'll be able to cover the things that we haven't yet covered on episodes of our podcast we'll be able to get to. So for example, we did an episode where we talked about empaths, we talked about sensory processing disorder, a little bit of the anatomy and some of the neuro, neurochemical implications. What I can say, generally speaking about the brain, the brain is, you know, all about detecting patterns and detecting meaning. And there are many structures in the brain, but the number of connections in the brain is what makes it the brain. It's not just about this part of my brain works well or I've got a really strong hippocampus. It's about what are the connections that we allow our brain to make and what are the environments we place ourselves in to facilitate that. So not a big surprise if you were to take a mind expanding drug that is designed right to increase connectivity and certain kinds of experiences, you're going to get an increase in connectivity and certain kinds of experiences. But for people who are neurodivergent, they may already have certain things that open them up to seeing things in a totally different way. I recognize patterns that other people may not. You know, I'll never forget I was sitting with my friend Emu many years ago, Emu, who started our, our YouTube channel years ago. And I was, you know, mesmerized by the clouds. They happened to be moving very quickly. It was like one of those like chilly spring days in, in Manhattan. And I had to stop the conversation we were having to observe what was happening. And he looked up and he said, I don't think I would have noticed that before. You know, it's just not how his brain, right, was wired to, to track. So what does that mean? It opens up possibilities for artistic expression, for also deeper feelings about things that other people may not notice. So these are all these kind of pathways that when people are very, very focused on rationality and numbers and logic, that's where the brain will often point towards, right? But once your brain is already sort of open to these other pathways, we are in many cases more likely then to act on them, to see them and to find them in places that other people aren't finding them.
- [50:53]
B
One of my favorite things about neurodivergent people is my ability to have multi pronged conversations that do not follow any sort of linear pathway, but all lead to an amazing outcome, meaning we can talk about something. Pause that topic go on a tangent. The tangent actually has relevance. And what I find is that they can see that multiple conversations happening at once are actually because there is an interconnected and relatedness to each of the topics. So especially as you're getting to know someone, if they're like trying to answer your talk about your life story and hear more about how you grew up, it's often like, well, why did you move there? And in my life, like why I moved, there is usually like six factors that all led to it. And there's my son and my job and what was I doing at the time? And then I had this apartment. And like, there's often. Their lives are not as seemingly straightforward as the people who we got together, we got married, we have kids, we've lived in the same house for X number of years. I think a lot of the non normies end up having more complicated backstories, which I love exploring.
- [52:09]
A
I like this theory. Neurodivergent people have more complicated backstories. I thought you were talking about the way you talk about your backstory, which I also think is a little bit neurospicy.
- [52:20]
B
So yes, both of those are true. But I started with how we talk about our backstory and then I realized the reason our backstories, we talk about it in a certain way is because they're a lot more complicated sometimes.
- [52:31]
A
So this is without poking too deeply here, I think this is an important point to make. You know, why might neurodivergent people have more complicated backstories? If we're looking under this umbrella, right? If we're looking under the umbrella. People who might have trouble writing, communicating what they want to say, understanding numbers, understanding abstract stuff, if that doesn't come as easy to you as it does for other people. A lot of basics in life can feel very challenging. A lot of basic things that you want to conquer can feel very challenging. The number of steps needed to do X, Y or Z for people with ADHD can be crippling. It can be crippling. I talked about this. My father of blessed memory, he hated filling out forms. And I just thought he hated filling out forms. And he was like, against the man and the establishment and like, I don't need these forms and the government, blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't blah, blah, blah. My dad had trouble following a form. It was hard for him. And I didn't realize probably till after he passed away. You know, he was the son of an accountant and it was expected that he'd be perfect with Numbers and precision. And why didn't he become an accountant like his father? And he's like, cause I'm an artist, you know? And so. But when I think about it, he was really good with certain aspects of numbers. He tried to major in math in college and then ended up switching majors to English. English. I think that there were things that he didn't have support for, but there was a certain way of thinking that he could not do. But it became his identity. I don't do that. But now I'm looking back and I'm thinking, gosh, what other things in his life were hard? What else was hard for him? And. And I think about the people that I know, and many of them do have complicated stories. Well, I couldn't figure this out. I couldn't get there, and I didn't. I lost the thing. And yes, it is hard to be neurospicy.
- [54:31]
B
One very common term with people who experience neurodivergence is the concept of masking, where they have to pretend that they either are a certain way, understand things that they don't, or present to the world in a way that the normies accept them as one of their own. And actually, for me, the most powerful experience I had was going to a school. You had to actually be some form of neurodivergent in order to go to the school. And it was the very first time that I didn't have to pretend. I didn't have to pretend I knew things that I didn't. I didn't have to pretend that I understood the assignment that was given in class. I could say, wait a second. I'm not sure when this is due, or what's expected of me. And the level of relief that happened was so unbelievably powerful. It was a weight I didn't even realize I was carrying. And I think that's really what happens when people start to realize that they have these differences and start to connect with other people who have these differences, is that you can finally be yourself.
- [55:41]
A
Well, and another thing that happens, and it creates a lot of tension. You know, if you're a person who doesn't like when other people are chewing, that's misophonia, which I know is a Valerie thing. I think we can share that because she's shared it before. Masking means acting like you're fine when someone is chewing really loudly in your face, like, that's masking. That's a thing you have to do. And, you know, another example that was given in one of these TikToks was creating symmetry around touch. I have to find very clever ways to complete symmetry that I need with touch. I also eat things in groups of threes. Now, a lot of these things are definitely. That's. This is. We're in the OCD land right now, comfortably resting there, you know, almost like in a lounger in the pool in the OCD land. But one of those notions is, like, you know, my kids will tease me because they'd give me, like, two crackers, and I'd be like, I need one more. And they'd be like, what if we don't give you one more? You know, like, the lengths that I go to, and I even do it when I'm alone. Like, it has to be in threes, and I have to find ways to have symmetry around eating and around touch.
- [56:51]
B
We have spent almost six years together, and I have not known that you're eating in threes. So you are masking so hard that I didn't even realize that every time.
- [57:03]
A
Taking your child's french fries right over your plate. Every time. Yeah, it's three.
- [57:09]
B
I think that pattern recognition has a lot to do with how many neurodivergent people feel like they sense energy, where something shifts in the room, or someone says something and you're like, there's more there. What could it be? I'm not saying it's only that I. I do think that many neurodivergent people are sensing things that are beyond the five senses. But. But talk a little bit about the idea of pattern recognition and how it shows up.
- [57:39]
A
I think there's a particular subset we're talking about of people who might be neurodivergent and interested in sort of tapping into those abilities in a spiritual or an energetic way. You know, in that sense, I think that there's a lot of research that still has yet to be done, but I do think that in a lot of the conversations we've had, you know, on this podcast about people who are more likely to be able to drop into. Right. Certain meditative states, certain, you know, focus states, which, you know, according to Suzanne Giesemann, you can teach yourself. Like, you don't have to naturally be that kind of person, but for people who are neurodivergent and might lean towards that kind of thing. Yeah. I think that we might just say, like, oh, that person's a really good reader of people. Or historically, that person would have been, like, the town matchmaker. Right. Like, what is it like to be tuned into things that other people don't see patterns in behavior, patterns in consistency, even patterns in language that other people don't pick up on. I'm a very, very particular person. I do notice things other people don't notice. I can almost always tell when someone's had a haircut, even if they have very short hair. Like, I'm just. And people are always like, how did you notice? My own husband didn't notice, you know, and it's like, I'm very observant, you know, like, that's part of this spectrum for me, this notion of pushing through and how much masking we. We do. And, you know, I think about. I think about how many of us, you know, when we were kids and we would complain to our parents or teachers, like, something's not right. Like, I not. And we were just told, everybody feels that way. You're fine. And that actually really. That really gets my goat, you know, when I. When I express, like, a challenge, and the other person so disproportionately tries to make me feel better by, like, making it universal. And it's like, no. And that's literally the three words you.
- [59:31]
B
Don'T understand when you experience some of these things. When it's like, I have a pile of paperwork on my desk, and Mayim says to me, let's go through that paperwork. Let's get these forms filled out. It's not about motivating myself. More like, I really have to get all my skills, abilities, my energy in the right spot. I have to, like, mentally game for it. Like, going through that level of paperwork is so much harder than doing something that's creative that I could spend hours on.
- [60:04]
A
Right. But that doesn't pay the bills.
- [60:08]
B
It does, actually.
- [60:09]
A
No. No, it doesn't. What I mean is, if there. If you have a stack of bills to be paid, literally, Right. And of course, it's not as fun or engaging, and it's very hard to get motivated. We had to go to a party. We got to go to a party. And it was kind of a work party. But when I stepped foot into the place where I could see the people on the patio at this party, my foot would not hit the ground. Like, you know, when you take a step, my foot stopped midair. It was like, we cannot go one further.
- [60:41]
B
And I just want to paint the scene for people.
- [60:43]
A
What was I looking at? That was so horrific.
- [60:46]
B
Maybe 10 people sitting outside on a beautiful patio, all nibbling on some tacos, and then, like, another eight people sitting together, just like each. And there wasn't, like, communal Conversation. Like, everyone was in a little pocket having a conversation, and it looked like mime was about to step onto a stage with 100,000 people with no speech prepared. You were shaking. You looked at me like I was torturing you. You were. And you turned to me and you said, we have to. I know. This is like. I don't even know that you formed sentences.
- [61:25]
A
Okay, Valerie, what did you get on your quiz? I got 12. Oh, look at this. Look who thinks she's a big deal over here. 12. All right, well, you may not understand what I'm about to say, because you only got 12. Those of us who are at, like, the 17 and above set. Valerie, if you were looking out at what Jonathan described, because I know that this is a place where you and I line up. What about that sounds like it might be a problem. It's. They already are in their little bubble talking about their things. Okay. Yes. I don't know if I can cut in. And then they stop mid sentence and look at you. Like, what are you going to add to this conversation? Why are you. Huge social fear. But for me, literally, when Jonathan said the sentence, what were we looking at it? 10 to 15. Too many people already. It's already too many people. You said they're lounging. They are in a level of comfort that I am not in. It's a beautiful patio. I don't have a beautiful patio like this. What am I doing here eating tacos? I got to eat in front of people. What if I, like, choke, drool, wipe my hand on the back of my, like, face? Like, the way that I eat. What if I. My mouth is open? That also, everybody was in their own thing. Exactly what Valerie said. So everything you said that sounded lovely was like molten lava bubbling. It's like Mordor. I'm looking at Mordor, the eye of Sauron. Like, it's, like, terrible.
- [62:55]
B
There was also a fantastic food spread, which I think also disturbed you.
- [62:58]
A
Well, the veggie tacos were mostly potato, and so, like, that's just a potato taco. But no eating in front of the whole bit. Oh, are you vegan? I don't want to talk about it. I don't talk about it. It actually turned out to be very nice, but I. I felt like I was, like, holding my best smile. It was very lovely. People, I will say, let's talk about.
- [63:17]
B
The strategy that you used to go from that initial experience to settling in, picking a spot, and having quite a lovely time that you seem to settle in on.
- [63:29]
A
So in the past, it would have been alcohol. Like, I think for a lot of people, it was not. There was no alcohol. I was looking for, like, you know, when I saw potato chips, I was like, that's my friend. That potato chip is going to make everything better. Which is not a great coping mechanism. I was going to, like, treat myself to, like, a lemonade or, like, a fun drink, but that would have involved saying hello to more people in the drink area. So I avoided that. Um, what did I do? I stayed close to you. I made clear that it was important that you not leave me and go socialize with people because I. I didn't want to be left alone.
- [64:04]
B
No, I don't like socializing by myself.
- [64:06]
A
No. But sometimes, you know, people, you know, so, like, you could have gone places. But what did I do? Yeah, I. I mean, I tried to, like, focus on breath, not crying, sitting.
- [64:18]
B
Did you tell yourself that this is going to be okay? Did you have a narrative, a CBT reframe?
- [64:25]
A
I had the memory that I have my own car if I need to leave. Meaning it was important for me to know that there was a potential way out. Yeah. And I also didn't force myself to do things I didn't want to do. I couldn't push myself. We like to play cornhole. There was a cornhole set, But I wasn't prepared to leave my couch. And that position that we found. I did find people that I. I did know a couple people. So at least that was, like, a little bit of a touch point. And then something really funny happened, which is kind of an aside which we'll talk about relatively anonymously. An energy practitioner that I have sought counsel for happened to be at this party, and I didn't know. And I don't like seeing therapists outside of the place of where they do work. And so, fortunately, we were towards the end of us being there. But there was no way I wanted to be socializing with this person who, like, knows a lot of deep, dark things and has, like, hovered hands over me. So that was also. It was pleasant. But, like, I. When I used to go to therapy, like, if I saw her heading to the bathroom, I'd be like, I no longer have to urinate. I will never urinate again because I will not walk into the bathroom if she's walking into the bathroom.
- [65:31]
B
Look, what I'm hearing is that you had an experience, you had a strategy, you had mechanisms to help you through it, and also, you know your boundaries.
- [65:39]
A
That is true.
- [65:40]
B
Mayim talk a little bit about the idea of how neurodivergence may connect to empaths or people who are highly sensitive people.
- [65:50]
A
I think as we've talked about, you know, kind of which pathways are more emphasized in different brains. I think that for people who are, are neurodivergent, I think we're talking about brains that yeah, maybe paying less attention to things that let's say normies would pay attention to. And that means that they are, you know, technically opening up pathways that, that make them more available to tune into other things. I think there's still a lot of research to be done and again, we're dealing with a super broad umbrella when we talk about neurodivergence. But look, the work that Kai Dickens has done with the telepathy tapes is also opening up a conversation about what happens when you're non verbal. What are the other avenues that have to open up. Does it open up other perceptual abilities? Sounds like yes. You know, what's the reliability, predictability and consistency of that remains to be seen. But I think some of these conversations that the telepathy tapes has brought both us and the larger community is kind of saying, yeah, what do we know about how the brain wants to process especially when there are supposed deficits in other areas.
- [66:52]
B
It's really interesting. And the highly sensitive, especially to clothing and especially to environments and to sound is an interesting correlation that we're seeing in people who have these differences.
- [67:06]
A
Oh yeah, absolutely. And you know, I have children also. So we've also seen how different, you know, young people are treated when they have these, these concerns and requests. You know, many people have accused many pockets of our society as being privileged and thinking about these things. But you know, when I think about my dad, like, gosh, I wonder what his life was like as a kid. I wonder how, you know, how many problems he had when he was younger that nobody knew and how many generations of people, right, have been overlooked for their need for support and acceptance and safety, you know, around these things.
- [67:39]
B
That's a really important point. I think one of the greatest things you can do for a child is see who they are, recognize the things that are inherent about them. Obviously we're not saying that no child should develop skills that they don't have, but see what's inherent, see what they need and try and help support them with the largest amounts of acceptance. So if they're never going to be the student who is the most normie, who is the best at reciting information versus thinking creatively, thinking outside the box, try to identify who that child is. And give them the support they need.
- [68:17]
A
I want to talk about, just briefly touch on some of the challenges of, you know, we talked about before, you know, what's the difference between validation and, you know, over pathologizing our human existence? There was a recent study that we were looking at social media as an incubator of personality and behavioral psychopathology, symptom and disorder, authenticity, or psychosomatic social contagion. So the notion being, and this is a quote, the more diluted identities become, the easier they are to co opt and commodify. Keeping users engaged in the short form visual world of TikTok and Instagram requires creators to flatten their identity. Context is removed. Symptoms are generalized or even fabricated to the point where they apply to anyone, which is a tempting invite for the growing majority of people struggling to keep up with capitalism's rising demands. So in many cases, the challenges that one might feel from being neurodivergent, from having trouble keeping up with life, work schedules, routine, all these things, it. It may be causing people to aspire to over identify. And maybe they do identify, but what does it mean? How much of your identity does it become? As opposed to, who are you really? What are your strengths? What are the things you want to work on? Do we just throw up our hands and say, well, I'm neurodivergent, there's nothing I can do? In many cases, there are things we can do, even if it comes down to how does caffeine interact with your neurodivergence? How does medication that you may wanna look into affect it? The other thing I wanted to mention is what this finding in the Journal of Comprehensive Psychiatry found is that teenagers exposure to these things, so young people's exposure during certain phases of personality development raises the likelihood that they will develop symptoms of disorders that they're seeing online. So there's a window. There is a window when we literally can statistically sort of track the likelihood of symptoms emerging from disorders that are being introduced to them. And this is sort of one of the things. And as someone who studied obsessive compulsive disorder for my thesis, everybody loves to tell me that they're ocd. It's their favorite thing. I really like to wear, you know, shoes with laces that are tied perfectly. I have ocd. And you used to always give me a hard time. You were like, mayim, you're that lady, you're that scientist that's like, please use the right term. But I was ahead of my time, because this is exactly what the kind of fear. Is this over diagnosis or over pathologizing? Sometimes people are just neat. Sometimes people are meticulous. Sometimes people are fastidious. It may be a diagnosis, but again, if it's not causing problems in your work, your social life, and your general functioning, it may not be something that. That necessarily needs clinical attention. Is it fun and interesting to find these places of connection, you know, on social media? Absolutely. Does it make me feel less alone when I see these things? Absolutely. Like the dude vacuuming. It made me feel fantastic.
- [71:38]
B
The other thing that people may notice is that they like to have little special objects, things that they carry around. If you're only listening, Mayim has a pointer that she's brought up. And is that actually a new pointer?
- [71:53]
A
No, this is my pointer, but this is my pom pom. Valerie's got her little alien. I mean, I've got a variety of things here. Fidgeting is one of the main features that in neurodivergence quizzes, they're like, do you have trouble sitting still? Is your leg moving a million miles an hour? I mean, yeah. So this is my pointer. I like unusual things, and I collect unusual things, which also can be on the OCD spectrum. Sometimes we. It's called collecting items of useless value, and I don't think they're useless. So what happened is this was my pointer, which was just. I really. There's a funny story about this pointer, which maybe we'll tell at another time, but I accidentally sat on my pointer and it broke, and I was very upset, so Jonathan fixed it. I also want to just mention before we. Before we close out here, you know, some. Some practical tips. Jonathan, I wonder if you can share. You know, we. We each have a lot of features, as the quiz showed. We each have a lot of features. Can you name your top three things that you think you've done to better understand how your brain works differently and how to see that as a superpower?
- [72:57]
B
Well, number one, identifying the areas that I need help in. So for me, I had to lean in to my auditory processing ability that I love taking in information in that way, and I had to lean into that and use it across everything I do. And that was like, the biggest game changer that has ever happened to me. This next part was really stepping back and recognizing that I have strengths because of these differences that play to my advantage. And so instead of seeing my differences as either a disability or disadvantage, I began to say, everyone is wired differently. This is my unique pattern, and how do I use that to advance the Things that I'm interested in. And then the third is identifying the areas that I struggle in, like filling out forms, like doing better when I'm working collaboratively. Early in my career, I realized that I was never going to succeed sitting in a room by myself to write for the rest of my career. I knew I needed to be in a collaborative environment where there was much more feedback and interpersonal relationships. And so I had to make some very strong decisions to change the course of how I was going to use my skill set to be as successful as I could be. Knowing that while I had once imagined my life as this writer producing screenplays, sitting down, being creative by myself, who I was, I had to come face to face with that and make the decisions in order to embrace my strengths.
- [74:37]
A
Very nice. I'd say for me, my top three. The first is acceptance, which I do think is much easier, honestly, with how much conversation there is around it. So I'm grateful and happy for, for younger people and people, you know, who are. Are seeking support in these ways to have that, because it can be very confusing and, you know, really always trying to fit your, you know, square peg into a round hole can be very frustrating. So I think acceptance, that notion of truly accepting it, what does it really look like to not be in resistance about it? You know, when I think about that question about school, yeah, my brain did not work the way other people's brains worked. I had to do remediation on two of my qualifying exams. It makes a lot more sense now. Back then, I wasn't in acceptance. I was like, what's wrong with you? And I used it to beat myself up. So the first thing would be to focus on not just being like I accept myself, but like, what does it practically look like? The second is to find safety. You know, I'm the variety of neurodivergent that has a lot of safety issues. I need to feel safe. If I don't feel safe, everything goes wrong and it'll just snowball. So where are the places that I can find safety? You know, nature, my. My religious faith, my. My spiritual and philosophical explorations that we get to do here. Creativity, that's another really, really safe place. And the third thing, I mean, I think there's a lot of, you know, other physiological things to do for safety. You know, sleep is safety. All these things can fall under this umbrella of safety. But I think this notion of joy and of taking joy, even if it is through nature or through creativity, but finding that place of joy so that nothing feels Like a struggle all the time. You know, I don't want to feel like I'm struggling. And I really like Jonathan's also, like, find out the things that you need help with and get help with them so that you can find the joy in things again. So those are my top three.
- [76:35]
B
Beautifully said. I think I'll just add one additional thought, which is when you do find the things that you may need help with or that you struggle with, you're not broken. You don't have to eliminate the things that you struggle with in order to be able to get what you want from life. You may need help. You may need support. The goal of a supplement of a medication is not to make the thing disappear entirely, but just to give you enough support. Support to help you along the way. And looking at ourselves, we don't have to eradicate the problem in order to be able to get what we want is a huge step.
- [77:16]
A
Really nice, really appreciate that. We hope this has been a helpful exploration. I know a lot of it was very general and some of it was very specific, but we've been wanting to talk about this for a while and we know that so many in our Breaker community identify with components of neurodivergence, neurodiversity. So we're just so happy to be able to bring this conversation to you and for us to have it with each other.
- [77:38]
B
Come find us on substack. Tell us about your experience either being neurodivergent, being in a relationship with someone who is neurodivergent, because there is a really fascinating learning experience that has to happen between people who in a couple, if one has a bit of a difference and one operates in the mainstream, we explore all things science and spirituality on Substack. May be Alex breakdown. Come join us there.
- [78:06]
A
And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.
- [78:09]
B
It's Maya Bialik's breakdown.
- [78:11]
A
She's going to break it down for you.
- [78:13]
B
She's got a neuroscience PhD or two and now she's going to break down.
- [78:19]
A
So break down.
- [78:20]
B
She's going to break it down.