Jonathan Cohen (3:48)

She's also gonna describe how to keep her vibes high and have good energy, which I love. She's getting hippie.

Mayim Bialik (3:54)

Also, before we welcome Chelsea, wanna mention her podcast, Dear Chelsea podcast. And she is currently in a Las Vegas residency. It is Chelsea at the Chelsea at the Cosmopolitan. She's making history as the venue's first female comedian residency, which is incredibly impressive. Such a pleasure to welcome again to the Breakdown, Chelsea Handler. Break it down.

Chelsea Handler (4:21)

Hi. Hi, guys. Good morning. How are you?

Mayim Bialik (4:24)

Good. Welcome back.

Chelsea Handler (4:26)

Thank you.

Mayim Bialik (4:27)

You're one of very few people that we have had more than once on the Breakdown. We're very happy to talk to you again.

Chelsea Handler (4:32)

Oh, no. Is that an indicator of your interviewing technique?

Jonathan Cohen (4:36)

People run after that.

Chelsea Handler (4:38)

Oh, well, I'm always happy to be a second time. I'm a second time caller and a second time guest.

Mayim Bialik (4:45)

This is airing on your birthday. So happy 50th birthday.

Chelsea Handler (4:48)

Yay. Happy birthday to me. Thank you. How old are you, Mayim?

Mayim Bialik (4:52)

I am months behind you. We are the same. We were born. I was born in 75 as well. I'm born at the end of 75, so I will be turning 50 after you.

Chelsea Handler (5:03)

I felt like we were the same year, so I was right. Okay, good. Well, Happy early birthday to you as well.

Mayim Bialik (5:08)

Thank you. We are here to talk about. I'll have what she's having, which is really, really. I've read all of your books and I've enjoyed all of your books. I happen to love. Well, I love you and I happen to love the way you write and the way you tell stories. This book is a 10 tender. It's a tender and a funny take on a variety of things that have kind of happened to you in this phase of your life. And I wonder if you can start us off with the Jane Fonda confrontation that happened.

Chelsea Handler (5:44)

Okay. Yes, happily so. I was at a Jane Fonda party, one of her parties. And it was a few months later. I had gone with my friends. And a few months later, I got an email from Jane Fonda saying, hi, Chelsea, you may have noticed I saw you at the John Lewis event. Shonda Rhimes had an event, a fundraiser for John Lewis, our former congressman, who is no longer with us, and said, you may have noticed that I was a little cold to you at the John Lewis event at Shonda Rhimes house. And. And I was like, yeah, I did kind of notice. But at that point in my life, I just wasn't very tuned in to when people weren't into me. Like, it didn't really matter to me. You know what I mean? I just kind of was like, oh, well, whoopsie doodle. Who cares about that person? That kind of little arrogance, just attitude. And so she sent me an email, basically asking me to come over for dinner in lieu of. I mean, not in lieu of the. As a response to that. She's like, I'd love to talk to you in person. And I was like, oh, okay, sure, sure, I'll come over for dinner. And she's like, tonight at 7:30. And I'm like, oh. Like, I felt like I was getting a stern, you know, like, talking to. Which it was exactly what I was getting. And I went over there and I remember her chef asked me if I wanted a martini. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like, you know, I was like, I better be coherent if. If I'm about to get yelled at or schooled or whatever. And she basically told me, I can't believe the way you acted at my party. You were really harsh and rude to multiple people. Multiple people complained about you. I don't know what drugs you were on. And I don't either. I don't really remember what I was on, but I don't know why you would have ever you just were carrying this really dark cloud around with you. And I was mortified because I was sitting across the table from Jane Fonda being told that I was an asshole and that I had behaved badly. And I. And I had just started therapy, so I. I knew not to be defensive. Like, I had already learned that being defensive means you're wrong. Because if you're right, you don't have to argue, you don't have to defend yourself. You know the truth. And in that moment, all I remember is, don't be defensive. Just accept what she's saying. As much as I wanted to be defensive and, oh, you know, there's a million excuses you could find for bad behavior. I was like, no, no, no, no. This is Jane Fonda. Like, you be the person that you want to be in this moment and listen to her. And so she said all of these things. It was really, really hard to hear embarrassing things about yourself and your behavior. But even through that mortification and through that pathos almost, I. I understood the bigger overarching message in that moment, which was sisterhood, which was her being a sister to me and actually taking the time to call me over to her house to summons me, if you will, to have that conversation with me. Because so many people, especially in our world, don't wanna deal with that. They don't wanna deal with conflict. They don't wanna deal with having difficult conversations. And because she took that time to have. Have that conversation with me, she set up, like, she set me up for so much success because, A, I was never gonna. She was never gonna have to talk to me again like I was. If Jane Fonda tells you to. That you're misbehaving, like, it's my job to go and correct that behavior immediately. And B, it told me what it kind of laid out groundwork for, like, the kind of woman that I wanna be to other women and the kind of. Which is a sister. Like, I wanna be a sister to everyone. And she kind of demonstrated that for me. And it really, now is such a. I'm so grateful for. And even in that moment, I was able to find gratitude. Even though I wasn't that familiar with the word gratitude at that point in my life, I was able in that moment to see, oh, wow, this is something serious. Something to pay attention to and something to work on. And also, thank you so much for taking the time to care enough about me.

Mayim Bialik (10:00)

So when you go back to thinking about that the evening that caused her to summons you, even though you may not remember what you were on or not on. Who was that? Chelsea? Like, what was she describing?

Chelsea Handler (10:16)

She was describing someone who was just not grounded, who was just. You know how there's this saying that Oprah uses all the time? Like, everything works for you until it doesn't. Or something will work for you until it doesn't. Like, my whole personality and my whole bravado and my whole attitude and this kind of like, free flying, don't give a shit about what anybody thinks. Bravado attitude got me so much in my career and got me so far in my career. And then at around 40, it just. I hit a wall and it was like nothing was working for me. In the same way, I started to develop, like, nerves and panic attacks. And, I mean, I wouldn't say multiple panic attacks, but enough for me to be jolted. And I realized. I realized in therapy, you know, that was a lot of delayed grief from my childhood. My brother had passed away. I wrote a separate book about all of that, but it was what forced me into therapy. And the Trump administration, the first Trump administration. I had all my anger hanging on that. I was like, oh, I hate them. I hate the Trumps. I can't believe this person could become our president. And so I transferred all my anger to that and made it seem like they. That was what was embroiling inside of me. But it was really old stuff that was kind of coming to a head. And the way I was acting at that party was because I was so out of touch with myself. You know, I wasn't being introspective. I wasn't thinking about why I'm so angry or who is my anger really about and what's underneath that anger and all the things that you learn during.

Mayim Bialik (11:54)

Therapy, it almost feels. I don't want to say it feels like a loss for us, but so much of you and who you are and what you've been able to trailblaze, in many cases, places that other women weren't allowed in was because of this drive, this ability to sort of put all that shit aside and be, like, braver than brave. So what is the new, like, what is this other version of you feel like? Is it that you've already achieved that, so you don't need to have those components of you anymore? Like, I wouldn't want to change the way you were, but also, I feel bad that you were living in pain and grief.

Chelsea Handler (12:36)

Right. But I think of it as, like. I don't think of it as a light, like, a loss. I think of it as, like, fine tuning an Instrument, Like, I wanted to get to the next level of where I. Of what my potential could be. And that kind of anger and that kind of turbulence had a place in my life and was kind of a motivating factor for me to get to the next level. And by the way, that wasn't overnight. That was two years of therapy, then two years of post therapy. It's such a process therapy. It's like I went for two years intensely, and then. And then you have to absorb all of the stuff that you learn, and then once you absorb it, then you have to apply it. And you're trying to, like, you're trying to retain the great parts of your personality that do. Are great, that people do like and that aren't hurtful to you or others, while also kind of blossoming into this newer version of yourself that is also gonna be sharp, edgy, funny, and known for all of the things that you're known for. So it was a lot of, like, almost auditioning different versions of personalities to be like, which one do I like the most?

Jonathan Cohen (13:43)

One of the hardest parts of the note from Jane sounds like the dark cloud part. Yeah, like, being mean to people you can understand, or, oh, I should be nicer. But, like, the other dark cloud is so nebulous. You're like, is people just see that, you know, did. Did that hurt?

Chelsea Handler (13:59)

Yeah. And I think the answer is yes. You know, the answer is yes. You know, when you're in a bad space or you're in a bad head space, you know, that energy that you bring around you or that. That is around you. And. And it's. It's just like when you have good vibes that people are attracted to that there's magnetism in both. And so, you know, the idea of, like, someone being in a bad mood and thinking that they can push through something, it's like you can a couple times. But eventually, like, everything starts to show. All the cracks show. So, yeah, you can buck up and do something when you're in pain or you're sick or whatever. But, like, if you're mentally not where you want to be, that starts to wear on you pretty quickly. In all of your endeavors, I wonder.

Mayim Bialik (14:42)

What your perspective is on sort of the drugs and alcohol of it, because so much of, you know, your writing, your books, you know, what you're so open about has been the joy of being inebriated, the joy of indulging, the joy of having that, you know, that veil lifted, which, you know, is not something you've ever been ashamed about. And throughout the book, I don't feel like it's something you're ashamed about. You talk about both the recreational, you know, aspects of drugs, and you also talk about the incredibly therapeutic aspects of drugs and sort of lifting that veil. How do you feel at 50 about sort of the. The life you had in terms of, you know, recreational drugs and how you feel about it now in this kind of, you know, Chelsea 2.0?

Chelsea Handler (15:37)

I feel like drugs are great. I love them. Like they're for me. They're not for everyone, but they're for me and I have a great relationship with them. I understand that there are lots of difficulties and lots of people cannot have healthy relationships with drugs. And I write this in the book, like, when I'm healthy and I'm stable and I'm grounded, my relationship with drugs, that's the way they show up on me. Fun, healthy, good time. If I'm in a bad or dark place and I choose to do drugs, and that's not a good time to do that, and it shows up in your body in a dark, more odious way. And I feel firmly about that. I know I've been using drugs in good times and bad for my whole life. I've taken long breaks or I've overdone it or every variation.

Mayim Bialik (16:29)

So.

Chelsea Handler (16:30)

So I have a pretty strong understanding of how my system cooperates with drugs and bringing things in. And I have to be like, I won't even have a drink if I'm in a bad mood. Do you know what I mean? I just know not to put a hat on a hat. It's gotta be a celebratory or healing component, some sort of medicinal component if you wanna do something when you're not in a great state of mind. But that's my feeling about drugs and alcohol. If you're in a good spot, you can cooper with them pretty easily. And if you're not in a good spot, they'll take you down.

Mayim Bialik (17:05)

You have a. A section in the book where you talk about how exhausting therapy was. And you said, this is a quote. Every new development or idea led to a period of intense self awareness followed by waves of acute self consciousness coupled with endless self recrimination. And you go on to talk about how that definitely was an overcorrection and there's a kind of calibration needed. But, um, a lot of people who, who might be listening either don't understand what therapy is for or fear that therapy is just endless self recrimination. Can you talk a little bit about that really difficult process of. I mean, my experiences, even after being in therapy for 30 years more.

Chelsea Handler (17:49)

Well, we are Jewish. You are Jewish, Mayim.

Mayim Bialik (17:51)

So it's true. It's like part of the. It's just part of the birthright. But sometimes I will. I'll see something in a different way and then it's all I can see. And I find every point in my life where that was the motivating factor or that was the hole that I was trying to fill. Right. Can you talk a little bit about this process and sort of where you ended up with it?

Chelsea Handler (18:10)

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I. Therapy is the gift of self awareness. Like you're getting the gift of someone who is not in your life telling you to look at this, to look at this. How is your behavior impacting others? How does it impact yourself? Why do you react this way? Why are you guarded around the idea of love or men? Or that's just like to me, I'm always like men relationship. Like, that's the sideshow, That's a side hustle. Like my hustle is like women life, my family, being generous, having this big loud life. And like a man, sure, you can come along for the ride, but don't get too comfortable. But like, what's the psychology behind all of that? Where did all of these kind of positions, this positioning come from? And I think like one, the self recrimination, the self, you know, all of the stuff that comes with therapy, which is a necessary evil, I would argue. I mean, wouldn't you say so? Sure, it's not easy, but it's necessary.

Mayim Bialik (19:10)

It's not. It's not good medicine, but it's long.

Chelsea Handler (19:13)

Term medicine, like it. And what I realized is after you get through the phases of being pissed at yourself for doing something a certain way or not being awake enough to know this is why you're responsive, or you're so reactive. For me, I had no patience for anyone ever. I mean, that's still pretty tricky for me when I'm dealing with dumb people. I don't have a lot of patience for that. But I have a lot more sympathy and empathy for people who are stupid to be like, okay, it's not their fault. Some people, I would argue it is their fault. But also to stop berating yourself. You know what I mean about the past? And I think that is one incredible thing about turning our age that we are both gonna be this year is that like, you're not so focused on the past, you're not so focused on the future. You're at an age where you can actually be in the moment of who you are, I'm not gonna beat myself up about past mistakes. And when therapy brought up all that stuff, and I would look a bit like, oh, this time I was such an asshole, or this time I was so insensitive. You get to a point where you're like, that's not helpful either. Like, I want to be a spiritual person. I want to be light and loving. So while you have made mistakes, they don't define who you are. They're actually like a propeller in moving you towards making sure the next time you come around that circle of events, you behave in a better way. You make a new impression, you know, you do what you know better, you do better. So I think all of that. You don't ever want to get stuck in self recrimination and being like, I'm the worst, I'm the worst. Like, that's not helping anyone, including you. So you have to be forgiving. Like, you know, you have to be forgiving of yourself while also being really forgiving of others. And that's also a really useful tool to have in life, is to be able to forgive people, you know, even when they do hurt you.

Mayim Bialik (21:02)

A lot of the conversation around this seems to kind of culminate with what you sort of describe as a different aspect of growing up. And I don't like this notion that you were not grown up or that women who, for example, don't have kids are not growing up or don't have to deal with real life. So I don't. I don't want to come from that sort of framework. But you talk a lot about how this whole process was about a kind of emotional maturation. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit at 50 about what it feels like to be growing up in this different way at this stage of life.

Chelsea Handler (21:43)

I think that growing up is. I. I never wanted to grow up. I wanted to grow up, but I didn't want to grow up. You know what I mean? I wanted to be an adult, and I didn't want. I wanted, like, I didn't want to be a kid attached to everything, like my family. I didn't want to. I felt like that they were keeping me back, you know, like they were holding me down, my family. Like, I wanted to be free like a bird. But I also. Now I'm in a state of like, oh, no. Growing up means so much more. It means not giving a shit about the past. It means not belaboring the bad decisions. You Made. It means choosing things that make you happy rather than choosing to make other people happy. It means saying no to things when, when there's scarcity or if you're worried about your next career move and you're like, well, this doesn't really f. It means saying no and having the confidence to know that I'm the one who got me here. There's now 50 years of scientific data that I'm sitting here because of my reliability and my ability to rely on myself. So that's maturity. That's knowing. Like, even in my moments where I'm not feeling positive, I'm not feeling self assured or I'm feeling insecure or whatever the, you know, all of the icks. Whenever I'm feeling that way, I believe maturity really is knowing that that's temporary and that I am gonna feel strong and confident again. And it's always right around the corner. Like, it's having that wisdom of life and not getting stuck in the ugly moments, even knowing. And not getting stuck in the high moments either. Knowing all of that is like, it's flashy and it's, and, you know, ephemeral. And that, that to me is being like, mature. Me saying to a man that I'm dating, like, yeah, hey, we've got a great thing going. But, like, don't get it twisted. I'm a free spirit. If I go to Europe and I find someone that I want to have sex with, that's going to happen too. Like, I make sure all my bases are covered. Now, like, to me, that's mature. You know, I don't want to lie, cheat or steal. I just want to be upfront with everybody. And if you can't handle my honesty, then, then we're not. You're not for me either.

Mayim Bialik (23:54)

I got very emotional when you were talking about this aspect of growth. And one of the reasons is, you know, I'm friends with Eliza Schlesinger and you know, through my sort of following your career, like, there's certain women that I feel like, gosh, they've got something that a lot of us don't have, right? I include myself in the U.S. like, there's a boldness, there's a confidence. You know, I think Eliza once said to me, she was single at the time this, before she got married. And, you know, she said if, if a man is in my way, like, get the fuck out of my way. Like, you know, like, I will achieve what I. And I was like, oh my God. Like, I, I.

Chelsea Handler (24:33)

It didn't even occur to Me to.

Mayim Bialik (24:34)

Sort of, like, think it. Like, it felt wrong to think that in my head. Right. And so one of the things. And, you know, this is kind of on a more personal note, but you choose to talk about it in the book. You know, you. You were in a relationship that literally brought me to tears when I heard about it, because I was so happy for you. Not because the definition of someone's happiness should be she's in a relationship, but there was something so joyful and so victorious about the way you loved and the way you chose to allow us as the public to see you loving. And you talk about it in the book as such a, you know, complicated and delicate moment of your life. But I wonder, you know, a lot of women feel they're too much. And a lot of women feel that no matter how much work we do, it's still really, really difficult to find a guy who can handle it, who can handle us, who can handle the intensity, handle the pace. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about where that has settled now for you, now that you're not in that relationship. And I know you have other relationships, you will have other relationships. But in terms of, you know, the beauty that you describe about the way you showed up for the relationship and could experience love, I wonder how that feels when you think about sort of what that means to so many of us to see you that way.

Chelsea Handler (25:59)

Yeah. I mean, that was really, really. You know, we're talking about Jo Koy, and that was a very public relationship. I mean, I've had a couple of public relationships. That was the most. People were so happy that I was so in love. I mean, I couldn't believe it.

Mayim Bialik (26:12)

I cried when it ended. I cried. I cried when it started, and I cried when it ended.

Chelsea Handler (26:17)

Oh, I love that. I mean, that's so sweet. And, yes, people were. That reaction was just so. I had never experienced that kind of support system from the public. You know, I mean, I'm used to getting criticized. I'm not used to being like, we're so happy to see you happy. When no one ever expected this. I'm like, oh, God, okay, I love it, too. So there was an aphrodisiac in that, you know what I mean? In and of itself. But at the end of the day, our relationship wasn't. I would have had to compromise who I am as a woman, and me compromising myself as a woman feels like I would be putting every woman at risk. Do you know what I mean? Like, when I think about decisions I make for myself, I think about all women, and I think about my nieces, and I think about what I would tolerate for any of the those people. And it doesn't even have to be someone I'm friends with. You know, I would do that for a stranger. I would consider them a woman that was in need. I would want to do anything I could to get her out of any hole that she was in. So, like, when I think about the standards that I have, I always kind of consider, would this be okay for one of my nieces, one of my sisters, you know, another woman in my life? And then I also realized, like, me taking a step in the direction of choosing myself rather than choosing the relationship, because I didn't want to end that relationship. I really didn't.

Mayim Bialik (27:43)

Like, I didn't want you to end it.

Chelsea Handler (27:45)

I didn't want to either. And so when I had to, to make that kind of big girl, like, put your pants on. And I was doing this podcast with Glennon and Abby. Glennon, Doyle and Abby. We can do hard things. And I was like, I had already rescheduled three times because of scheduling and all that nonsense. And it was literally, like, three days after we broke up, and I was in no condition to do it. And I just thought, you're a woman. You're a big girl. Just fucking do this and be honest and just be real. Like, that's your thing. You can do this. And I did that. And the response to that was so overwhelming and so lovely and so many women in my DMs, and just saying, thank you so much for your honesty. And it was just, literally just the right message. I needed to know that how many women responded to that? And knowing that I, too, am someone who has to make decisions like that. And I choose me. No one else is going to choose me but me. I'm choosing me. And I remember having this Asterian astrologist reading in Greece. I left to Greece. I was supposed to go on this trip with Jo Koy, and instead I went to Greece with some friends. And my assistant said, oh, you have this guy, Jade Luna, you've had this appointment for six months. Have you gone to him?

Mayim Bialik (29:04)

No.

Chelsea Handler (29:05)

Okay. She goes, I was on a waiting list for six months. You don't use your real name. You just give him your birth date and your time of day, time of birth. And this is like old school astrology, not Western astrology. And I was like, okay. And she goes, if you go to Greece, you do want me to move that appointment. I'm like, I Can't wait another six months for that. She's like, okay, but then you have to get up at three in the morning to do this phone call with this astrologist. And I was like, oh, that's a bit despi. I'm like, but I guess I am desperate. So I get on the phone with this guy and he has no idea who I am until the very end when I divulge that. And he gives me this whole reading about who I am as a person, why I'm on this earth, what my purpose is. All about using my voice, and that my voice is my instrument, that I'm here for women, you know, all of the things that are true about me. And nothing about love comes up, right? And this was shortly after my breakup. And at the end he said, do you have any questions? And I said, can you tell me anything about men in my world, like, about love? Am I going to be with someone or what? And he said, you are queen with or without a man. And your purpose in this lifetime has nothing to do with men. They might be like, you know, the B story, but they're never gonna be the A story for you. And I thought that makes a lot of sense to me and reaffirmed the decision I had made a few weeks earlier, you know, when I ended that relationship. So I guess to answer your question, the way I look at it is it's not my priority, it's ancillary and it's great. And I love men and I'm seeing someone now and he's adorable and I love him, but that doesn't define me and is just, you know, it's something that I enjoy.

Mayim Bialik (30:55)

That's such a beautiful. It's such a beautiful way to frame it. I guess my follow up question would be, does choosing yourself always mean that you're not partnered or can you choose yourself in the context of a relationship where it feels safe?

Chelsea Handler (31:11)

I think that can be true. Yeah. I think that's a great point. And I think it absolutely can be true. If you're with someone who understands and respects the fact that you are able to choose yourself in the moment and not choose the relationship, then sure.

Mayim Bialik (31:27)

There's a running theme in sort of the way you speak. And it's also throughout the book, it's not explicit, but I'm. I'm really curious if you'll get more explicit. There's something about spirituality that seems to have entered the way that you think and frame things. Is there something specific that happened? Is there something specific that you've incorporated. Was there a moment of clarity? Was there a moment of revelation? Where did that come from? And what's sort of the through line now?

Chelsea Handler (31:56)

I think first, like, therapy. I went to therapy for two years. That was like my gateway into meditation, into spirituality, into starting. I just wanted to like, unearth all of this stuff that I always thought was kind of woo, woo, Louisiana, Dummy chakra. Like, please, I don't want to hear about chakras. I don't want to hear about energy, work and healing. I just find all those people to be a bit much. And so I was always a little bit like, I'm from New Jersey, I don't have time for that, you know. But once I went to therapy and opened up my mind and expanded my mind, I understood, like, oh, energy is scientific, actually. It's not as easily measured as other things in our world. So it doesn't get as much respect as it should. But it's very simple. Like, if you've got good vibes flowing, you know you're going to put out good vibes and that's what you're going to attract. And conversely, the same is true for bad vibes. So I, I was someone who could easily go down the drain if things weren't going my way or if I didn't get what I wanted or. And like, get mad and get angry and get vindictive and blame, blame, blame, blame. Like, very victimy. And there's a book called Look Letting Go by David Hawkins that's pretty metaphysical, it's pretty deep. So it's not really for everyone and it's definitely not for people who are looking to like, get into spirituality. I would say there's like a couple more books to start with, but it really defines the energetic magnetic field that you put like, that you basically instill in yourself. Like, it is a choice to get up and be in a good, positive mood. It is a choice to be extra kind to strangers and extra friendly to people. And I don't get an A plus every day. Like the other day I, I had all the shoulder stuff and I was in so much pain and I was getting an MRI and I was like, fuck, I don't want to get surgery. And I was like, they were shuffling me from one MRI room to the other and I was kind of like not making eye contact with the technician and, and I left there and I was like, you could have done better than that. I'm like. I said to my makeup artist later, I was getting ready for an event and I was like, I think the true definition of, like, being good and kind is to be able to do that no matter what kind of pain you're in and how inconvenienced you are. You know, you can be good and kind to people when you're happy all the time, no problem. But if you're in trouble, are you still able to be good and kind to people? And she's like, are you kidding me? You're in so much pain. I'm like, no, no, that's not an excuse. Like, those kinds of tests is where I'm at in my life. Because I do know for certain. Like, I have no doubt in my mind that you reap what you sow and that when you are really conscious and present, like, I cannot express enough how much being present brings joyfulness into your life. You know, the very art of being in this conversation, talking to you yields good vibes because we're all paying attention to each other. And, like, that's something that I've gotten so much better at. And I just. I'm good at it because I know what it brings.

Mayim Bialik (35:04)

It's funny you mentioned that. I was just, I don't know, in the middle of the night, lamenting about how much rushing is part of my makeup, meaning checking things off a list, getting a conversation over with. You know, even when I try and relax or get a massage, it's like, okay, but what am I doing next? What are some other examples for you of what that shift in being present has brought?

Chelsea Handler (35:31)

Well, I've. I found out, like, the things that I loved the most in my life, like skiing. I love skiing. I love skiing. And my thera. I was like. I just. I go, I wonder why I get so much joy out of it. And he pointed it out to me many, many years ago. He goes, because you have to be present because you're worried about not falling, not dying, not falling off a cliff. Like, the reason why you are so joyful and so exhilarated while you ski is because you have to be present. So I take. Try to take that with me wherever I go. You know, if I'm taking a Spanish lesson, I'm present. If I'm walking down the street, I'm trying not to also be on my phone. I'm like, just walk down the street, look around, see somebody you can make eye contact with, smile. Like, it becomes very pedantic. But it becomes also a newer way to live. Like, it's exactly what you're saying. You're on your massage table thinking about the 18 other things you have to do, you miss the massage. Like you're missing all of the moments and all of those little moments. There's like little gems and rainbows throughout all of them. And I don't want to miss them those anymore. So it's not like I'm reading. Reading. For me, reading is awesome because I have to be present. I can't listen to an audiobook because I'll be looking out the window and looking, you know. But when I read a book, which I do almost every day, I am so present and I feel so good. And so it's the addiction to that feeling of good, you know, Like, I love that feeling. So now I know how to get it. And it's by being in the moment.

Jonathan Cohen (37:04)

Skiing. You're also on some of the most magnificent nature that like, you would never have access to, which is absolutely, absolutely jaw dropping.

Chelsea Handler (37:14)

And that's where the LSD comes in that even you, you can take a B plus and make it an A plus plus. Like if you're in a natural environment, like a beautiful surroundings and you have a microdose of lsd, you be, you believe you're in heaven. You are like, oh my God, this is a slice of heaven on earth.

Mayim Bialik (37:32)

You talk a lot about kids and pets in the book. And I wonder, you know, some of the funniest, some of the funniest things that you write about and have talked about is the freedom of not having children. And as someone with children, I find it really, really refreshing to be able to laugh and to be able to understand what, what it would be like to not have children. Mine are 16 and 19, but still. Can you talk a bit though, about the relationships that you have with people in your life who you serve a very significant role in their life? You, you talk in the book about certain boundary setting aspects of that, but I wonder if you can also talk about the joy and sort of what you've learned about the decisions you've made and what you do offer to these relationships.

Chelsea Handler (38:24)

I think one of the greatest things about making a decision to be, to not have children is that it opens up your bandwidth so much. Like, this is something that nobody really talks about. Like, you have so much extra space for other people and other people's children. Like, if I had my own two kids, I wouldn't be able to give half of the attention that I give to my friends, kids, to my nieces, to my nephews. Like, I always wanted to be the fun aunt. I am, I'm the fun aunt. And I'M I mean, my house in Whistler, like, you go over there any day of the week, and there are three different sets of children there. Like, some are in the upper living room playing video games, Others are in the kitchen. Some are in the Jacuzzi with all my knickknacks for my, like, skiing and compression garments and whatever.

Mayim Bialik (39:09)

But.

Chelsea Handler (39:09)

And my. My friends are like, this is so ridiculous that you have so many children around you. I'm like, and none of them are even related to me. And. And. But I'm like, yes, but imagine if I had my own children. I would never have time for this. I would never have time to go skiing with other people's kids or take kids on vacations that would normally not have those kinds of opportunities to go on vacations like the ones I'm taking them on, and to even spend time. I mean, the girls in the book that I talk about, Poopsie, Oopsie, and Whoopsie, are like my babies, and I speak to them every day. I mean, I just got off the phone trying to get her a ride, and she's in New York City, and I had to get her a ride to upstate New York with some other friends. I mean, I'm basically, you know, this, like, step parent to so many kids, and it's. And I. And it brings me so much joy. Like, so much joy, so much love. People have this idea that I hate kids. I'm like, no, I never said that. I said, I don't want to be a mother. Like, that's what I said. So, yes, I think, you know, parenting is the biggest responsibility that anyone can take on, and any help I can give to parents with their kids as, like, you know, an added support system. I love that.

Jonathan Cohen (40:21)

When are you going back to Whistler? I love that place so much.

Chelsea Handler (40:25)

Thank you. I love it, too. Do you ever go?

Jonathan Cohen (40:29)

So I grew up in Toronto. We started going to Whistler Blackcomb when I was 14, sort of on March break. I sort of. I did most of my skiing out there, and then I lived in Victoria, British Columbia, in my early 20s, and we'd go up to Whistler quite a bit. So I haven't been in about 15, 20 years and cannot wait to get back. My son is a snowboarder, and it will just blow his mind. He's never seen anything like it.

Chelsea Handler (40:53)

Oh, Whistler is like, my. This is my favorite place. Hit me up if you guys come up there. We'll go. We'll go out and meet for a drink.

Mayim Bialik (40:59)

Jonathan will be one of the kids.

Jonathan Cohen (41:01)

In the Jacuzzi sign me up.

Chelsea Handler (41:03)

I'm hosting the Critics Choice Awards next week, so I'll go back the morning after that.

Jonathan Cohen (41:07)

Have you recorded the 50th birthday skiing post yet or.

Chelsea Handler (41:11)

No, I haven't. I just had shoulder surgery, like, Friday night. So I am on intravenous antibiotics for an infection in my shoulder, which is why I had the surgery. So I have not. I just pushed my ski video. It's a big shoot this year because it's for my 50th, so I just pushed it by one week to allow myself a little bit more healing time before I get in a bikini, grab my dog, and hit the slopes.

Mayim Bialik (41:36)

Well, happy birthday. Really, really hope that people will read. I'll have what she's having. Chelsea, thank you so much. So great to talk to you again. We really appreciate you coming by. Happy, happy birthday. And can't wait to see what the next 50 bring.

Chelsea Handler (41:50)

Thanks, guys. Thanks, Mayim. So nice to see you.

Mayim Bialik (41:57)

I want to circle back to, uh, what she talked about regarding love. There's some really, really painful but really beautiful parts of the book, she says. This is on page 150. It says, ugh, the moment you know it can't work. The dreadful realization that you can't be in the relationship and truly remain who you are and who you've grown yourself to be. Then she says, this was the work of therapy. Being in a relationship, being vulnerable without experiencing all the feelings that come with prior relationships when they go south. The desperation to make things right, the panic that you feel when something's ending, the rage toward the other person for not understanding that they're being unreasonable, or the very childish urge to prove you were right. I had none of these emotions. What I felt was sadness, and not the unbearable kind. The sadness of knowing that in order to make something work, I would have to abandon myself. The sadness of knowing there would be no compromise, that I am whole, that I am grounded, that I am full of love and gratitude. And even with all of these things, that the relationship was untenable. She really handles the this breakup, and I'm sure it had lots of ups and downs, but she. She really handles it with a lot of grace. She said. I had spent two years unearthing all of my childhood trauma, and I assumed because of that I would attract the same. That really was like, wow. Instead, I attracted one of the greatest guys I've ever known. But he had never unearthed his trauma. And when the surface was scratched, it became clear that he had his own unfinished business and that being so deeply in love with each other was triggering that trauma. Oh, and the fact that she had to do that publicly, I mean, obviously, it's really unimaginable. But I really admire. I admire the grace that she. That she's handled that, you know, conversation with. I. I feel, it's really. I don't know, I think a lot of people, you know, maybe you're in a relationship or you don't know, or you feel like you're abandoning yourself and to be able to say, oh, I love this person, but it's not right, and that you'd have to abandon yourself to stay in it. I just thought. I really like the way she writes about it.

Jonathan Cohen (44:12)

We've had guests and relationship experts talk about how close relationships bring up that trauma. The way that paragraph described the notion that in these close relationships, the unhealed parts of ourselves are going to pop up and rear their heads. It's painful. But also, you know, being in a relationship is work to communicate, to. To find the balance of being together and who we are separately. But also how do we deal with the parts of ourselves that do come up and surface that we may not realize are still there and we didn't.

Mayim Bialik (44:52)

Get to talk about it. But highly recommend, if you haven't heard the first episode we did with Chelsea, that you check that out. She really used therapy as a way to start understanding some of her own trauma stuff that she came from the loss of her brother and a lot of the complexity of her childhood. And so, you know, she herself talks about how that followed her to every relationship, every friendship, you know, everything kind of about her. And that's why I wish we, you know, could have gotten to more. But the book really takes us on that journey of what that kind of awareness and mindfulness and sort of looking at yourself, the way Jane Fonda allowed her to look at herself, to be able to kind of crack that open and see the places that are stuff. You don't even have to call it trauma. Right, but your stuff, whatever you come to any interaction with, like that that is who you are, that, that. That has made you who you are. And it allows you to then confront those things or tuck them away even more.

Jonathan Cohen (45:56)

I looked back at that first conversation briefly, and there was a moment that stood out for me. For me. She describes asking herself, is her entire life a reaction to her brother dying and having a very intense emotional experience? Was everything else simply knee jerk? The way that she was necessarily aggressive at people or the way that she sought distraction to be away from uncomfortable emotions. And I think a lot of us can relate to that. Whether or not we have a death in the family or a divorce or some sort of pivotal childhood experience that makes it too painful for us to deal with whatever has happened. Are we then for the rest of our lives running to distraction, afraid of what's sitting inside of us?

Mayim Bialik (46:44)

I mean, obviously it. It can't be that simple because her siblings, you know, reacted differently, or you'll have people in a similar situation. I mean, you know, we can't study everything in twin studies and say what happens if the same thing happens to two identical twins. But there's also a tremendous amount of variability and something that we kind of keep revisiting here. You know, there's a tremendous amount of variability to one's excitability, to one's propensity to hold trauma or one's propensity to, you know, not. Not have, let's say, as much energy to, you know, to rally, you know, some of what she talked about, I just don't relate to, you know, this notion of, like, oh, well, you know, good vibes bring good vibes and bad vibes being bring bad vibes. I know that that's true. But also a lot of things happen to you along the way in your life, kind of no matter what stage state you're in. And yeah, there's certain aspects of that that kind of feels like, gosh. But people who are experiencing chronic depression, like, don't have that get up and go to, like, be like, it's a choice. And I get it. It is. It's a choice what mood to be in.

Jonathan Cohen (48:04)

That's an end range, though. You know, you paint the chronic depression like that's someone dealing with a very serious condition that they have less choice of. I think she's more talking about people who are just in a reactive state. They just are ruminating or they're blaming. I think a lot of people can relate to the blame. Like, I'm uncomfortable and it's this person's fault, and if only this person didn't cut me off and that person got me in line faster and this person wasn't an. And looked at me sideways, I would be in a better mood. And I'm going to carry this around with me. And this cloud of darkness that Jane Fonda said to her, like, that's the part that hit me the hardest in that description, because I can relate to not realizing the vibe I'm giving off. Like, my internal vibe, I think is better than what is being perceived? You know, I was recently called out by having a resting, mean face, both on video. Often when I'm on Zoom, someone teased me. They're like, if only Jonathan would smile. Which you can't say to that many people. But I literally have this horribly mean resting face where people think I'm in the worst mood, but I'm just, like, lost in my head. And you even say to me sometimes you're like, your face while we're on the podcast.

Mayim Bialik (49:26)

Yeah, that's usually what I'll type, your face. Because you look like death.

Jonathan Cohen (49:31)

But I don't mean to.

Mayim Bialik (49:32)

But.

Jonathan Cohen (49:32)

But that's kind of different.

Mayim Bialik (49:34)

No, you don't. You just can't help it.

Jonathan Cohen (49:36)

I just can't help it. But I think that that's also different than people who are cycling in some sort of mire of annoyance or frustration or pain, and they're coming off as this dark cloud. So I'm saying, like, sometimes I'm coming off as a dark cloud, not even realizing it. And other people aren't realizing it, but they're struggling themselves.

Mayim Bialik (49:57)

So let's. Let's play a game.

Jonathan Cohen (49:59)

I like a game.

Mayim Bialik (50:00)

As Chelsea was talking about her former self and being, like, annoyed at this one and pissed off at this, and why is this happening that way? Just, like, show of hands. Who knows someone like that? I know. I know a lot of people like that. None of them are funny like Chelsea, though. And that's what I was thinking, that there's a lot of people who have this cloud, this darkness, but they. They don't come off like she does. And I was thinking, like, is that just sort of like her genetic luck of the draw and, like, she's from Jersey and that's how she talks. Like, a lot of people just sit in their misery, and it's not like, hey, get the out of my way. Like, it's just, like, dark and sad. And then I was thinking, gosh, there's this human variability, you know, in how we express things. And for you, you often will kind of go inside. You know, some people really go outside, or people will start, you know, when I'm threatened, I'll pick on other people, right? And other people, when they're threatened, will just go dim, like, right. So there's all this variability, and it's kind of like that's. That's sort of like the human experiment. It's like, let's put all these people together who all have different ways of expressing a range of dissatisfaction, anger, hurt, trauma, shame, and just like, See what happens, you know, and in sort of, you know, a mystical understanding of the universe, like, that's God's experiment. Like, let's see what happens.

Jonathan Cohen (51:28)

I was thinking about how it impacts her comedy, because I do think she was a little bit harsher, meaner, a little bit more attacking in her comedy previously, and she's softened now to be introspective and making fun of things in general versus a specific out of person. And I wonder if that softness, you kind of have to fear, am I going to lose the thing that brought me here, that edge? And yet the way she described, oh, I want to get to the next version of myself. Having to trust that that version will be funny, relatable, successful in its own way, that you don't need to rely on the past in order to have success. It's. It's some core of yourself that will remain, even if the expression is different.

Mayim Bialik (52:14)

Well, and I think for her, she just sort of feels like this is the next iteration of her, which, you know, as she describes it, it's. She's in a really awesome and fun place to be able to do that. You know, she has a lot of the comforts that she always wanted. You know, she. She's sort of like, you know, she. She writes a letter to herself at the end and is like, you have the life that you wanted and now you get to try and enjoy it.

Jonathan Cohen (52:41)

You know, but this is the point is so many people are afraid to reinvent themselves and to take. Go to the next level because they don't know if that next level is safe. They're like, things are okay. I'm holding it together here. It's not so bad here. Am I going to take that next leap to find out who the next version of myself is? I think that can be a scary process. Jane Fonda, how many people are there that will take the time to not just write someone off, but to actually sit down and care enough about them to give them that note. Because that's not an easy note to give.

Mayim Bialik (53:25)

I mean, I kind of want to know what the other side of the story is meaning, like, what was the decision to, you know, to kind of have that further connection with her? It sounds like there was another event, you know, where Jane, you know, kind of realized, oh, I'm being cold to this person. I. I'd like to, you know, explain to her and kind of take her to task. But, yeah, very curious. I mean, I've offended tons of people. Like, I'm waiting for someone to call me out Besides you?

Jonathan Cohen (53:54)

No. But to have an intervention like that, it takes an enormous amount of heart and care. And maybe she was just cleaning her side of the street, being like, oh, she didn't like how she acted, and so she's going to take some action to make an amends. But it. I didn't hear it like that. And of course, I only know a tiny fraction of this story. The part that I hear is someone went out of their way to call someone over to their house, to call Chelsea over and to literally make a fairly substantial adjustment in her life. She had the choice there to. I'm either gonna rail against this note or I'm gonna take it in. And what an act of love to do that.

Mayim Bialik (54:36)

Yeah. I mean, I think Chelsea had had enough therapy also to be able to take that in. I'm sure that there's a lot of situations where this would not have gone that way. Or as Chelsea had, you know, kind of talked about if she had had that martini. Right. Or if she had been high, like, when she came over. Right. You never know what would have happened. But I really like that notion of, you know, it being about the sisterhood, which is also a theme that she talks about throughout the book. The women that she, you know, kind of mentors and is like a stepmom to and, you know, kind of the friend circle that she's cultivated. There's a lot in there about, you know, sort of women looking out for each other. And I think the fact that she was able to receive it that way was really, you know, a gift for her.

Jonathan Cohen (55:18)

She's sounding more and more la spiritual, like the people she said were ridiculous. And I love when that happens. When someone goes from skeptical. All this Wooey nonsense is totally illegitimate and, as she said, stupid, to starting to dig into the science of it and understanding that our cells make energy. We have energy that moves through our body. That word is difficult for a lot of people because it's sort of nebulous and it doesn't make sense. But as we understand that we are all part of a larger system that opens a can of worms, which is both scientific and spiritual. And I liked how she described it. She's. She's coming over to our side.

Chelsea Handler (56:00)

Yeah.

Mayim Bialik (56:00)

It felt like she was doing an advertisement for Mayim B. Hollock's breakdown. Like, just because you can't measure it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I was like, exactly. That's right.

Jonathan Cohen (56:12)

We should do a topper. That's gonna be our new ad.

Mayim Bialik (56:17)

Chelsea Handler's it's her seventh book I'll have what she's having is out today. Make sure to wish Chelsea A happy 50th birthday as we got to do. And so excited to have her on again. And yeah, make sure you subscribe. Go on YouTube, subscribe, hit the bell icon so that you get notified when new things drop. Subscribe anywhere that you get podcasts. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.

Jonathan Cohen (56:43)

It's Maya Bialik's breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two non fiction and now she's gonna break down so break down she's gonna break it down.