Did He Read Mayim’s Mind… Or Did She Outsmart The World's #1 Mentalist?! How You Can Use Oz Pearlman’s Tricks to Better Trust Your Instincts

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Mayim Bialik's Breakdown

Episode: Did He Read Mayim’s Mind… Or Did She Outsmart The World's #1 Mentalist?!
Guest: Oz Perlman
Date: October 28, 2025

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Main Theme

This captivating episode explores the world of mentalism through the lens of renowned mentalist Oz Perlman. The host, Mayim Bialik, investigates whether Oz’s skills are supernatural or the result of learnable psychological techniques. Together, they unpack how these "mentalism" skills can be used to read, influence, and connect more authentically with others—ultimately serving as life hacks for better intuition, success, and interpersonal understanding. The episode bridges the gap between entertainment and personal development, suggesting everyone can sharpen their instincts and communication.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Mentalism—and Can it Be Learned?

• Oz Perlman distinguishes mentalism from psychic phenomena:

  "Spoiler alert, I can't read minds. I am not psychic, I am not supernatural. I do not claim to possess some sort of powers that you yourself couldn't learn or attain..." (06:29)

• Mentalism as Life Skills:
  Skills such as reading people, influencing, and misdirection can be developed and applied beyond entertainment—these are habits refined over decades.
• Limitations and Talent:
  Not everyone will reach professional levels simply by practicing; certain innate talent and relentless practice matter, much like in music or sports.

2. First Impressions & Social Dynamics

• Self-Presentation:
  Oz underscores how people form judgments instantly and that it’s crucial to anticipate and answer those assumptions quickly.

  "When you meet someone, they're judging you... I have a chapter, it's called 'Channel your inner mentalist,' where you need to do an absolutely objective analysis of how do you present yourself." (08:53)

• Power Dynamics:
  Flipping the usual dynamic, Oz describes how he reframes cold approaches in restaurants to build rapport and authority:

  "When I walk up to people, aside from looking sideways, I realize that if I create a time constraint and also don't ask yes or no questions... The owner brought me in as a special treat for you tonight." (14:10)

3. Universal Applicability: Life & Business

• Reading Situations and Timing:
  Using examples from sales and personal relationships, Oz explains the importance of understanding others' perspectives—timing, mood, and motivation are pivotal.

  "Instead, start analyzing. When are they at their most relaxed?... You can connect with somebody on a level that instantly gives you a higher chance." (25:16)

• Charitable Interpretation (Jonathan):
  Practice assuming the best intentions in others, not taking things personally—a powerful tool for relationships and professional environments.

4. Instincts: Learning to Trust Your Gut

• Oz on Instinct:
  Years of experience have taught him to trust his initial gut feeling—most people’s instincts are sharper than they realize, but get dulled over time through doubt.

  "I think in many instances, your first instinct is the correct one and that so many times people say, 'I don't really think this person's good for me. But...'" (54:35)

5. Mentalism in Action: The 'Name Game' and Micro-Reading

• Behind the Trick:
  When Oz "reads" Mayim's mind to reveal her first crush's name, the skill lies not in psychic power but in guided observation and subtle cues.

  "Notice how quickly she said okay... If that name was a long name, Alexander Mitchell... you could not have counted that fast." (68:46)

• Micro-Observations:
  The method involves tracking facial expressions, micro-movements, and reactions, guiding participants along certain choices by narrowing possibilities through clever interactions.
• False Memories & The Power of Focus:
  Oz discusses how retelling and focus create or distort memories, relating this to how stories and tricks are perceived and remembered.

  "I learned that what we give focus to is what others give focus to." (62:11)

6. Ethics & Influence—Where Do Mentalism Skills Lead?

• On Manipulation and Integrity:
  Oz addresses the difference between entertainment and unethical uses, especially drawing a boundary between mentalists and dubious "psychics".

  "If I did this to you and we talked to somebody that had died... I don't know that I would sleep well..." (48:17)

7. Notable Stories & Anecdotes

• Snoop Dogg and the 30-Second Rule:
  Oz recalls capturing Snoop Dogg’s attention backstage in 30 seconds—demonstrating the power of confidence, timing, and framing.

  "30 seconds. Most amazing thing you've seen all month... If they repeat the amount of time to you, they're hooked." (43:10)

• Restaurant Origins:
  Early professional experience performing magic at restaurants gave Oz key insights into attention dynamics and resilience against rejection.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On What Makes Someone Memorable:

  “The most interesting person you usually meet in a room is also the most interested person…they find a way to turn the mirror around and get you to open up about yourself.” — Oz Perlman (01:25, expanded at 21:52)

• On Not Trusting Instinct:

  “I don't trust you. I don't want to trust you.” — Mayim Bialik (31:50)

• On Memory and Focus:

  "What we give focus to is what others give focus to..." — Oz Perlman (62:11)

• On Instincts and Relationships:

  “I wish I had, like, a good formula for you, but my gut instinct is to tell you that what you thought first is more often right than it is wrong.” — Oz Perlman (54:35)

• On 'Cheat Codes' for Life:

  “So the cheat code is that, if you ever really notice when you leave an event or a party and you go, did you meet that person? Oh, my God, they were so interesting... They're the ones who not only talk about themselves, but…get you to open up about yourself.” — Oz Perlman (21:52)

• On Lying and Detection:

  “Anyone who tells you they know how anybody lies is a liar. But what you can do is observe someone and, based against themselves, you can see the pattern of lies.” — Oz Perlman (48:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Oz Defines Mentalism & Universal Skills: 00:00–01:23, 06:29–08:16
• First Impressions & Confidence: 08:53–16:25
• Restaurant Story & Power Dynamics: 12:00–14:26
• Applying Awareness in Business and Relationships: 25:16–29:19
• On Instinct and Pattern Recognition: 54:35–58:05
• Snoop Dogg Story—How to Make an Impression: 41:12–43:10
• Micro-Observation & The 'Name Game' Trick: 65:35–73:01
• Afterthoughts & Debrief (Mayim Outsmarts the Trick): 74:34–80:38

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

• Approachable, witty, and layered: The episode’s tone matches Mayim’s blend of curiosity and skepticism with Oz’s humility and showmanship.
• Big Picture: The conversation demystifies mentalism, revealing it as a combination of psychology, focus, empathy, and constant iteration—skills everyone can apply.
• Encouragement to Trust and Refine Intuition: Emotional intelligence and intuitiveness are highlighted not as esoteric traits, but as craftable and valuable personal assets.

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Final Thoughts

The episode challenges the line between magic and everyday psychology, positing that anyone can harness the mentalist’s toolkit to improve relationships, business, and self-trust. While Oz dazzles with demonstrations, Mayim and Jonathan ground the conversation—connecting entertainment to profound life lessons about perception, instinct, and empathy. The post-interview debrief candidly acknowledges Mayim deduced elements of the trick, but also celebrates the real "magic": sharpening attention, connection, and the power of the mind.

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Transcript

[Oz Perlman]

Mentalism. It's magic of the mind knowing how to read people, misdirect people, deceive people, influence people. The same skills are life hacks, superpowers that will allow you to achieve your own goals and success. I want to teach you the skill of How I Made Snoop Dogg Stop and Listen to Me. How can you create a memorable experience for somebody or a memorable moment that they continue to talk about?

[Mayim Bialik]

Oz the Mentalist Perlman is the world's preeminent mentalist, renowned for captivating performances and extraordina mind reading abilities. He's going to explain how to build confidence, sharpen your memory, connect more authentically with others, eliminate fears with very, very easy to master strategies that he says can be learned in minutes.

[Oz Perlman]

Understand everyone is in sales. If you're a teacher at a middle school, you're selling your students on listening to you on turning in their homework. How do you make it so that they care about you and what you want from them? You need to start thinking like someone.

[Mayim Bialik]

Else thinks you are willing to share certain aspects of what you do. What is this secret that you possess?

[Oz Perlman]

The trick is what I call the packaging. You can connect with somebody on a level that instantly gives you a higher chance. And a lot of that has to do with very important skills that are nothing to do with magic or mentalism that you can improve.

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't trust you.

[Oz Perlman]

I am just tricking you. That is literally what I do for a living. Anyone who tells you they know how anybody lies is a liar. But you can see the pattern of lies. What we give focus to is what others give focus to. The most interesting person you usually meet in a room is also the most interested person. It's all of the habits that I've learned over 30 years of doing this that work for you. So the cheat code is that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Oz Perlman]

I'll be honest.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

I think the hardest part of the process was the time you spent waiting on hold to break up with your old provider. Ready to say yes to saying no. Make the [e-mail] break that's mintmobile.com break Upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees. Extra cement Mobile for details Time.

[Oz Perlman]

It's always vanishing.

[Mayim Bialik]

The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings. Selling your car. Unless you sell your car with Carvana. Get a real offer in minutes, get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today. Carvana pickup fees may apply. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[Mayim Bialik]

And welcome to our breakdown. How much are you revealing about what is going on in your inner world when you meet people?

[Jonathan Cohen]

And how much should you be focused and trusting your first instinct?

[Mayim Bialik]

Today we're going to be talking with someone who literally navigates these things on the daily in incredible, incredible settings with results that are astounding. And what many could be convinced to believe is magic, psychic ability, psi phenomenon. According to Oz Perlman, it's just learning signals, listening to intuition and being open to the possibility of the magic that already exists within all of us. Oze the mentalist Perlman is the world's preeminent mentalist. Renowned for captivating performances and extraordinary mind reading abilities, he actually rose to national prominence. He was working for a corporation, not as a mentalist. And he was on America's Got Talent. He went on to earn an Emmy award for his acclaimed special o's Knows. And I mean if you've seen any of his clips with the Seattle Seahawks, with Snoop Dogg, he works with sports teams and corporations. He is absolutely magical. But he's going to be talking to us today about read your mind. Transformative success habits from the world's greatest Mentalist. His book is out today. Um, and he's gonna explain how to build confidence, sharpen your memory, connect more authentically with others, eliminate fears with very, very easy to master strategies that he says can be learned in minutes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

If you haven't already done so, come check out Mayim Bialik's Breakdown on substack. Get exclusive content not released anywhere else and join the growing community.

[Mayim Bialik]

Let's welcome to the Breakdown. O's the Mentalist Perlman. Break it down.

[Oz Perlman]

Jonathan Mime. Thanks for having me.

[Mayim Bialik]

Want to talk about your book which is actually out today. Read your mind Transformative success habits from the world's greatest mentalist. So you are a mentalist, but you are willing to share certain aspects of what you do because you believe that it holds the potential to help us achieve a higher level of success. You know, presentness. What is this sort of secret that you possess that in theory I can learn to harness?

[Oz Perlman]

Absolutely. I mean, I would go further than saying I believe, but I know because I am. The proof is in the pudding. So again, very important to distinguish and tell people what it is that I do. Because if I'm watching this and maybe I've seen some of my viral clips, I'm like, are you going to teach me to read minds? And spoiler alert, I can't read minds. I am not psychic, I am not supernatural. I do not claim to possess some sort of powers that you yourself couldn't learn or attain if you were willing to dedicate potentially decades of your life. This is not like an innate skill like a psychic says they have that I was born with. This is something I've developed. But I would reference the fact that you could probably learn to do what I'm doing. But will you be as good at it as me? That is more of one of those God given talents where I always, I always mention music. I have a friend who's an amazing violinist. If you locked me in a room for the next two decades, I would never play Carnegie Hall. I don't have it. My five foot shrimpy frame is never going to the NBA. Like, there's certain things that limit where I can get to. And so with mentalism, it's a form of magic known as magic of the mind. It relies on a lot of the same infrastructure and skills of knowing how to read people, how to misdirect people, deceive people, influence people. And that's what I do for a living as an entertainer. But what I'm going to teach and what the book is all about is not how to be an entertainer. It's not how to do mentalism tricks, because that's a very small subset of people that would be useful. It's all of the habits and kind of ingrained things that I've learned over 30 years of doing this that work for you? The same skills I use, not to guess things, but to read people, influence them, are life hacks, superpowers that will allow you to achieve your own goals and success.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay, so I want you to explain to us some of the most kind of clear messages that people give that we don't realize we're giving. So my hair is a mess, and I'm assuming anyone looking at me would be like, that lady either doesn't care, doesn't know, or did an oil treatment last night before bed that she's letting moisturize her hair. But I want you to tell us some of the things that. When you. When you or anyone meet someone, what are the first things that. That you are reading that I'm not or that other people might not know about?

[Oz Perlman]

Here's the funny part about that. And this is one of those exercises that you have to try for yourself, which is all of us are the star of our own movie. What does that mean? That means that every other person in your life is the star of their movie, but to them, we're just a supporting cast. It's important to note that because when you meet someone, they're judging you. Maybe similar, maybe slightly different, but they're judging you just the way you judge them. And I have a chapter, it's called channel your inner mentalist, where you need to do an absolutely objective analysis of how do you present yourself.

[Mayim Bialik]

I'm just thinking about all the things that people are thinking about me when they meet me.

[Oz Perlman]

You're thinking of things, but a lot of the time people are only thinking of themselves. So when I meet people and there's a professional and a personal component to this, which is what is success? Right. In this book, I'm delving into how do you improve your relationships, whether that's how you're. If success means you want to meet somebody and have kids, maybe it means you want to close more deals, be the best salesperson in your organization. All different places where you set a goal and you hope to achieve it. Big picture stuff. So when you meet someone, what do you think about them? So much of that occurs in a split second. And I can tell you things that I learned and where I learned them, which is I started doing magic and sleight of hand. I was a teenager when I was 13 years old, had my bar mitzvah. We didn't have one of those big parties. We saved up a bunch of money. I didn't really come for means. We went on a cruise, which we've never been on a cruise as my family. And I saw a magician on the cruise ship. This guy brought me on stage. I'm pretty sure my dad bribed this guy. In hindsight, I think he greased the wheels. I go on stage, I'm freaking blown away. Like, I can't explain it any other way, as. As if somebody just turned a switch in my brain to obsessive. And when I got home, I literally would not stop reading magic books, even on the cruise ship. I followed that guy around. And there's a part in my book where I describe how hard it is for a grown man to hide on a cruise ship if you have a very committed teenager trying to find you. And so this guy, this poor guy, like, he had no privacy. Like, anytime I'd see him, I'd find him. I think he went out of the crew cabins to get away from me because I wanted him to show me more tricks. I was so annoying as a teenager. It's hard to process. Hopefully I've grown. Ask my wife. But I started learning magic tricks over and over, and at a certain point, I checked out all the books from the library. I had bought all the books at Barnes and Nobles and Borders Throwback. It's bankrupt. And I had to buy tricks at the store. And they're very expensive. That's how they make it. So not everyone gets tricks because they're pricey. So my mom, you know, a strong Jewish mother, is like, I'm not buying you any more tricks. Like, you got to go work. You know, with an Israeli accent. Like, it was very distinctly, like, go work. So I went into a restaurant where I got the confidence for this is another chapter. And I managed to talk my way into working at a restaurant as a strolling magician at age 14. And I would say that that was a masterclass in human psychology and interaction, because that is a way to walk up to people who do not want to meet you and might not want anything you're selling.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's called dating.

[Oz Perlman]

And they will reject you brutally, to your face. You know, there's no, like, you got a babysitter. You did your hair right. Mind you go to a restaurant, do you want this twerp coming up to you that you don't know what they do do they want my money. Are they any good? Like all of the things that you would ask yourself in your head when you saw me within one second, I learned that for me to get through your initial resistance, I had to answer all the questions in your mind as quickly as possible. And I had to flip the power dynamic. When somebody calls you and they want to sell you something, I want to sell you life insurance. You have all the power in that equation because you can say, no, thank you, I've already got some, or, no, thank you, I don't want you, or I'm healthy, I don't need you. All of these things that you could say, no, no, no, versus if that person that's selling you life insurance, you would like to get your kid into a tennis club, and they're the president of that tennis club now, it's very different now. You need something from them. So in a power dynamic, when I walk up to a table, when I approach them, I want them to want me. But what I want to do is, within as few seconds as possible, make it so that they now want me more than I want them. In life, no matter how you play it, and I don't mean to make it manipulative, there's power dynamics. If you have children, I want you to do your homework. Right now, there's a power dynamic as to who's going to do what that somebody wants. It's how to influence people effectively. And so when I walked up to a table, I started realizing that, what are they thinking? What are they thinking? And this is where you analyze when you meet people. For me, I realized they don't know if I work here. They don't know who I am. They don't know if I've been granted access. They don't know, oh, my God, he's about to do something. Is he any good? What does he do? Oh, God, do I need money to tip this kid? All of these things happen in your mind in two seconds. And so I need to address every one of those questions very effectively. And will he stay? Is he going to leave? How long is he staying? Oh, my God. So I learned that if I walk up to you straight, eye to eye, it makes you very tense. It's kind of hardwired DNA.

[Mayim Bialik]

I'm already tense with you looking at me now through a screen.

[Oz Perlman]

But if I walk up to you like this with one eye, as if I'm one foot in the door, one foot out the door, it feels like I'm leaving shortly. It feels like I'm just Stopping by.

[Mayim Bialik]

That's Jonathan for our entire relationship, six.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Years, one foot in, one foot out.

[Oz Perlman]

Jonathan is still not sure. Are you seeing this? He's turning eye to eye. Jonathan's like, I don't. I'm. I'm loving this. O's. I'm using this from now on. So when I walk up to the people, aside from looking sideways, I realize that if I create a time constraint and also don't ask yes or no questions. A huge mistake we do a lot of the time is we allow other people to dictate where the conversation goes. If you walk up to somebody and say, hey, want to see some magic? No. What's your rebuttal? Oh, well, I'm really good. My mom says I'm good. Like, you're done. So instead, create a positive experience and a question that you can't answer with a no, which is, oh, my God. Did you guys hear what's going on? It's your lucky night. Well, no. Nobody says no to that. They said, I want. What do you mean, it's my lucky night? And so I've intrigued you. I've created something that's only positive. I've walked up with one foot and I go, I only have a minute. But the owner brought me in as a special treat for you tonight. And I've got something incredible to show you. Notice there's been no questions. I've established the owner brought me in as a treat. The owner of the restaurant knows I'm here, brought me in as a treat. I don't need to spend money. I'm only staying one minute. So all of this has happened in under 10 seconds. And the interaction. And again, I've iterated. I learned this over years, made it so that really quickly all your tension dissipates and you're like, what is this guy about to do now that just gets the foot in the door? Now I need to kill it and do something amazing and capture you, but know how you present yourself. And so in interactions, new interactions are different than people you've known for years, right? The familiarity, what you're going to do. But ask yourself, what is that person thinking when you're coming up to them? Have they just introduced themselves to 10 other people? Are they stressed? Are they you? The more you can analyze what's going on in their head, kind of like a mentalist does, but not to guess things, but to glean knowledge that you can use in that conversation, the better.

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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[Oz Perlman]

Well, I think that a couple of the things that again, are secret sauces to my success and describe, I'm describing success because again, it's, it's creating a goal and accomplishing it. And for me, the goal has been within the spectrum of entertaining and being a mentalist is just being able to spread the word and be performing bigger and bigger places that you wouldn't expect me to, which is creating that kind of critical mass of captivating you've never seen. I'll just give you an example. No other mentalist or magician has ever been on cnbc. And it's not that I'm flaunting or bragging. It doesn't inherently make sense to go on cnbc, which is a financial network, to do what I do. It makes no sense. Why would you bring me on when you have Jerome Powell on? It's because I adapt to the people that are watching. So instead of me making it about me and doing a magic trick, here's cards, here's this. That's about me. I will go on there and present what is my skill, which is the ability to pseudo read mind. And I make it all about the viewer. I do things that are about interest rates, stocks, bonds, high frequency trading, all these things that are fascinating to the viewer at home. And that exact recipe for success, which is making it about someone else. If you can do that in your life with benefits oriented language, with a lot more of asking people questions that will make them jump out of autopilot. How many times have you been at a dinner or at an event with somebody new and they ask you the exact same predictable questions everyone else has and it's not their fault. It's like Family Feud. The number one question is always the number one question for a reason. Oh my God, how'd you get into this? Oh my God, is your parent into this? Like the same questions, but if they ask you something you've never thought of before, boom. It jerks you out of autopilot. And suddenly you open up to them in a new way. Suddenly the person who does that becomes more interesting to you. So the cheat code is that if you ever really notice when you leave an event or a party and you go, did you meet that person? Oh, my God, they were so interesting. The most interesting person you usually meet in a room is also the most interested person. They're the ones who not only talk about themselves, but they find a way to turn the mirror around and get you to open up about yourself. And that's where you create, like, an intimacy, a rapport, something that feels deeper than the surface conversation you have with most people who are inherently forgettable. I don't say that in a mean way.

[Mayim Bialik]

That's the advertisement for our podcast. We're going to get people to talk in ways that they don't normally talk about things that they wouldn't normally talk about. Because apparently I make people want to admit secrets. But I have a different set of skills.

[Oz Perlman]

I stole the breakdown script is all. I just did. I just stole the breakdown script. I'm going to be hearing from your lawyers. I think I have a strong case.

[Jonathan Cohen]

How do you apply the restaurant approach to other situations? You know, obviously it's specific to each one, but if you're in a sales environment, for example, or in relationships, like even friendships, how do you apply that to make people bring their guard down instantly? You know, set that time parameter, you know, where they're not gonna wait too long and talk your ear off. And also then, you know, you have to wow them in some way so it's easier to think about it in terms of magic. Right. But how do you do it in other situations? Can you give us some examples?

[Oz Perlman]

Absolutely. So I'll give you a few examples in personal relationships, things that I've been guilty of, and I bet so many of that you have, and so many of your listeners is I will take things very personally that I think have nothing to do with me. So, in essence, somebody I'm talking to, they haven't returned my call, or if it's more on a business sense, I. I want to. Let's say I want to get on a podcast. I give you a great example recently of someone that I knew, and I really want to get on the show, and I'm promoting the book, and they didn't get back to me for two weeks. And I feel very offended. I'm like, what did I do? What happened? And I start getting in my own head about the fact of what did I not do enough? And Then I convert that to anger and they're such a jerk and they ghosted me. And all these things where if you can really take a high level view, most likely it has nothing to do with you. Most likely you can create a better environment in a certain way just by the way you frame it. So my example is this. In most instances I found when I'm mad at other people, they just have a lot going on. And if you give the benefit of the doubt in a certain way and instead of when I do a follow up, this caustic like, hey, I haven't heard back from you, I assume just in a communication, say, I bet you've had a lot going on, love to check back in. You know what? I promise to follow up with you again in a week if I don't hear back. So again, it sounds like it's passive or that it's weak labeled language. What you've done is you've created, I've given you somewhat of an excuse, I've made it so it's not a personal affront. And in many instances when you give people that grace, they go, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I totally know that that happened. And I've seen things that spiral, especially with personal relationships with where you get so mad at somebody about something that they didn't even know you were mad about. And those expectations are the killer because you haven't clearly laid them out. And that's where like the inner mentalist is, is you need to start thinking like someone else thinks because that's very challenging to do since we're all stuck in our own bodies and minds. And that's what I literally do for a living, is think like other people. So that's one great example in business, huge one in business is in sales. You need to know what is the pain point for the person you're selling to. And understand everyone is in sales. I don't care like you're thinking, you just have to be a salesperson. If you're a teacher right now at a middle school, you're selling your students on listening to you, on turning in their homework, you're selling. Everybody is selling. It's the attention economy. How do you make it so that they care about you and what you want from them? And thinking about it, there's great ways to do it. In my show, I like to be vulnerable in a way where right from the start people didn't expect me to go, I don't read minds. Like, you know, first person to say, I'm full of crap is me. I am not telling you I'm psychic or supernatural. And people are shocked because they think that's what I'm about to say. Let's say you're a middle school teacher. You walk in the room, they are sizing you up. Teenagers are brutal. Like my second grader, I had to do a kids magic show for them. Eviscerated me. I left like ashen faced. Well, we can go into that story but like I rethought my career choice at that point. So you walk in and you're trying to get a raise from your boss. You have been setting up the story for a while of what have you achieved? What are my numbers? All these different things that are a measure of why you deserve this. But you might approach at the absolute wrong time and not get what you deserve simply because you weren't thinking like they are. Which is a great example is how many people sit on something and when it's important to you, you feel it should be important to them. I've been thinking about this all weekend. Monday morning I'm going to go in there and we're going to talk about this. What if Monday morning's the worst time? What if they're in a bad mood? What if they just got in, they're stressed, they've had old, they have 150 emails to deal with. Worst time ever. Instead start analyzing. When are they at their most relaxed? Is Thursday happy hour good? Chill time? You can come up to them, you can break the ice, have that moment where we're not seeing each other as I work with you, but more like we're equals, we're just having fun. By the way, man, I just want to tell you about something. You can connect with somebody on a level that instantly gives you a higher chance. The words you use, making it about them, not about you.

[Mayim Bialik]

Kind of drawn to how much this applies to relationships in particular. You know, I can't tell you how many times Jonathan has an amazing idea but delivered, you know, at like 9:15pm.

[Jonathan Cohen]

When I'm at my most creative.

[Mayim Bialik]

He's at his most creative but you know so much of it. Then we get into this sort of like battle of wills and you know, I think that's where some of these, I don't want to say hyper sensitivity but your keen, you know, awareness and attunement that you've kind of cultivated. There's a set of skills that we also can use to, to even in small ways try and refine some of these interactions that we have with other humans, no matter how we're interacting with them.

[Jonathan Cohen]

You know the psychological term for what you're talking about is charitable interpretation, right? Don't make it negative about them. Don't assume the worst, assume the best. Even if you can't imagine it in your mind, try and push yourself to say, there may be another explanation for what's going on here instead of an initial negative association that I might have or version of it. So that is extremely applicable.

[Oz Perlman]

Most of us, we don't want to do that. It's really important. Like inherently your rubber band state, you know, of not stretched, is to be like, that freaking jerk. Like, I'm just like you. There's not. I'm not some sort of saint who thinks like, oh, cut them some slack. I did it as a selfish response in my teenage years because when I'd walk up to a table and they'd be rude to me, that hurts like that. That hurts to deal with somebody rejecting. Rejecting you. So I started in my head learning and saying to myself, you know what, maybe their kids sick, maybe they just had a fight before I walked up to the table. And it actually took the heat off of me because if I dislike them immensely, then I go to the next table with that angst and energy of being like in a bad mood, which then makes it bad for the next table. So selfishly, I would say to myself, these excuses for them, for their behavior. So I would never take it personally. And if you can cheat, cheat. It's like one of those things where cheating is good. If you can rewire and trick your brain, I am just tricking you. That is literally what I do for a living. I, like I said, not psychic. It's a skill where I know how people think, which inherently tells me what people think. And I lead you on a narrative many of many of the times where you think you know how I'm doing it, but I'm actually sending you down the wrong road. I have multiple methods for everything I do so that when you think you figure me out a little bit, I switch lanes. And then you go, how the hell did you do that? That's on purpose. That's by design.

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't trust you. I don't want to trust you.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But she doesn't trust anyone.

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't trust anyone. No, but I wouldn't trust, don't trust this guy. So here's the thing that I think of. How did you snag a partner in life? Because I would just assume that you are, you know, Are using your powers for evil and not good in the dating world. Right. You could be like, I know exactly what this person wants and I'm going to be that. And I mean, and also, like, I'm saying this as a fellow entertainer, like, I can put on a lot of things. I can be what you want. Right. But with this set of skills, and I'm not saying that's the reason to get your book. There's many reasons to get your book, and it's awesome.

[Oz Perlman]

How to snag a partner against their will. We tested that title and it didn't go well.

[Mayim Bialik]

You can be the most intolerable person, but if you can read the other person and know what they want, you too can snag the partner of your dreams. So what is that like? What is it like on an interpersonal level? Can you turn this off?

[Oz Perlman]

Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Or is it like, once it's on, game on. And you're like this all the time and every morning you're like, pick a card.

[Oz Perlman]

Oh, for better or worse, I can't turn it off. But when I'm performing, it's really important to note the performance is very different than day to day life. Because most people, and this is the skill. The, the, the biggest compliment I get if you go on social media is that people think it's staged, that it's scripted. That is the highest compliment I can achieve. If I could script these things in a room with football players who have $300 million contracts, that would be in, in and of itself the most amazing thing to get them to act on camera. When athletes are the worst actors in the world, no offense to them, it would be spectacular. What I do is all about a very specific skill set that delivers huge reactions, an amazing moment, and it's magic of the mind. It's magic with no props, where I don't have to know that you're going to pick a card and, you know, fool you with my sleight of hand. I know how you think.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay, I believe you.

[Oz Perlman]

You generalize those skills and assume that I can use them everywhere in life. If I can do what I do, why do I not just go to a casino right now, make millions of dollars playing poker until I get kicked out? Right? Like, let's stop BSing. Why don't I do that? What's the. What's the jig? If I could, I would have. The problem is, is that in my life, when you see me perform, I'm the director of the movie, the camera points where I want it to Point, I frame the shot, which means it feels, and this is the skill that I could just do this anywhere, in any place, in any situation. But it's not because there's a procedure with it inherently. I am not psychic. I'm not pretending to be. So I have to guide you along in a certain way to do the things I want you to think of. This, look this way, do that, that in the real world when it's not within the context of entertainment people. I'm not doing that.

[Mayim Bialik]

You're being very humble because if I were to put you forget that you're an entertainer, you acquired a set of skills which also we, we to some extent, right, can try and learn from you. But if you, if you go up to someone and you want to ask them on a date, you're going to know quicker than I am if someone's interested because you're kind of tuned in on this level, right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

What I hear from you is that like, oh, in an entertainment setting, there is a process and people are coming into the room and you're controlling the environment in a way that, that isn't the same as just the natural world. What I hear Mayim saying is, yes, and if we let you loose in the natural world, you're able to pick up on the subtleties of human expression that other people are not. Mayimbialix breakdown is supported by BetterHelp.

[Mayim Bialik]

October 10th is World Mental Health Day, an important day that we've mentioned here every year at my ambulance breakdown. This year we're saying thank you to all the therapists who truly make the world a better place. Thank you one person at a time. And that's definitely including better help therapists who have helped over 5 million people worldwide on their mental health journeys. That's millions of stories, millions of journeys. Behind everyone is a therapist who showed up, listened, and helped someone take a step forward. Moments in therapy, like the right question, a safe place to cry, or a small win can change lives. This World Mental Health Day better helps honoring those connections and the therapists who make them possible, while showing how easy it is to get guidance from a licensed therapist online with better help. Our experience with therapy is that it has changed our lives, our framework, given us a sense of perspective, and it's something we used to say, oh, can I skip this week? Now we both know we cannot live without it. The right therapist can change everything. And BetterHelp has 12 plus years experience in matching people to the right therapist. Their therapists work according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the us A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from fully tailored recommendations, fully online and you can pause your subscription whenever you need to. Switch therapists anytime, no extra cost. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start on that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com break that's better.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

I'm curious how much you're willing to talk about the details of how you track people to get the information that you get. Like you're reading people, not psychically, but you're analyzing micro movements, physical tells that everyone has. And I'll give a couple examples that are just on your Instagram page. You asked Snoop Dogg to think of the name, someone's name, and then you ask him to think about the syllables in their name. So it's not that you're tracking their thoughts, but there's a micro movement that's happening that's related to his thinking. Can you talk about what you're tracking as you are able to basically see the physical expression of what's happening in his head when you ask him? And yes, you're directing in that moment, but in that moment you're also tracking cues that he is giving you. So let's talk about some of these cues that you're able to read. We'll use Snoop Dogg as one because it also goes to what you were just saying about how you know how people think. And I think, sure, it's not just in a controlled environment that you would know how people think. You're going to know how they think in other ways as well. So let's try and one level deeper here, starting with Snoop Dogg. What are you watching that he is giving off that is signifying his mental process.

[Oz Perlman]

If you want to know the behind the scenes. We were both performing a venue in Pittsburgh for about 22,000 people. Pat McAfee had a big night out. I was on stage earlier. Snoop comes off stage. I said hi to him. He's going to catch a jet. And I had somebody with me who was capturing content and they were like, Snoop's team goes, he's got to go. He's got to go. I'm like, oh, you've got. You know, I didn't have time to talk to him direct. We just shook hands, and I say to my guy, follow me, and we start walking. And this is an ethereal skill called chutzpah, where I am relentless and I don't give up easily. And that's been me in life forever. And so I walk and I see that, you know, the stars have aligned. He stops at craft services and just jumps in to get a Coke. The quietest room in the entire backstage area as well. I walk in, and again, how you approach somebody is so important because he's in a rush. His security guy does not want me to do this. If you watch the video, the security guy go on my Instagram, and he's mad. He's like, we gotta go. We gotta go, Snoop. So I need to, at that moment, win him over. So before we even get into the trick in the reading, the real magic of that moment was getting him to stop to make that video. Because 9 out of 10, you would have approached him, he would have said no. His security would have said no. So how do I win him over when there's a few seconds at best, and. And how do I create that social value and all of that? So in that moment, I literally said to him, and I said. I said, snoop, you saw me on stage. So that's a great question. Because if he says no, then I can warm up. He goes, no, I can tell him what I did. Or if he said yes, I now have a value proposition. You were amazing. So it's a. It's a win, win question for me. And then I go, snoop, 30 seconds. Most amazing thing you've seen all month. And giving the time constraint of 30 seconds is it's just. It's such a little amount of time.

[Mayim Bialik]

You've got to be so confident that you can do something. I mean, this, like, name the times in your life when you can say, give me 30 seconds. I'm going to change your life.

[Oz Perlman]

The 30 seconds is your entry point. You've now hooked the fish. The fish might take longer to reel in, but the 30 seconds is the smart play, because it's very hard for somebody to say no to 30 seconds. And if they repeat the amount of time to you, they're hooked. The fish is hooked. Because now you've assigned the amount of time. And now once you've intrigued them, they're likely to stay longer. I've never had somebody who, once they've repeated the amount of time back to me now you've already shown interest, like an indicator of interest. Now I'm, I'm, I'm interested. So now the, the ball's back in my court. So at that moment I had him think of somebody. And I said, think of somebody you're going to talk to soon. And now the part that Jonathan is going into is the actual brass tax of how the trick is done. And this is unfortunately the spoiler alert. I am not teaching in the book or in life how to be a mentalist. And here's the reason why, truly, because you could already learn that. I learned it too. There are books, there are videos. Everything can be learned in the palm of your hand. If you have a phone, you can Google it, you can go to YouTube, but you'll run into this barrier of holy crap, I'm gonna have to do this for years to get good enough at this specific, hyper specific skill that might not be applicable to the rest of your life. So teaching mentalist tricks is, it's, it's like the book would have sold 10 copies to other mentalists that I know. Instead, I want to teach you the skill of how I made Snoop Dogg stop and listen to me because that is so valuable. I want to teach you the skill of when he finished the trick, why did he then tell people for the next few days all about me? And that's not the trick. I need you to understand that that's so important for you to grasp. The trick is what I call the packaging. If you unpackage it, what's inside, the feeling he felt that I did to him, the trick made him feel that feeling. But how people feel when you leave them or after they meet you is so important as to what impact you have and how they'll remember you and will they talk about you to others. And a lot of that has to do with very important skills that are nothing to do with magic or mentalism that you can improve. Those are like, that's what I'm going into in the book is how can you create a memorable experience for somebody or a memorable moment that they continue to talk about and become your champion.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I 100% agree with you. And if there's no meat in the middle of the sandwich, he's not leaving that experience telling you that you're a warlock or wizard or whatever he said and like being like blown away 100%.

[Oz Perlman]

Had I not done a trick, what would he have gone to talk about? But here's what I would argue. There are lots of Other people that can do my tricks, but why aren't they at the same level of success or whatever you want to find it? Objective measures, how much tv, how many shows, how many reviews, all of the things that denote success in our day and age. Why, if we're doing the same things, have I grown and done things they haven't? That is an X factor that has nothing to do with the trick. That's the same in life. How many people are plumbers, but how many people own a plumbing company that then has 400 other plumbers that are making millions and millions of dollars a year? If that's your measure of success, what made them great? I think those core skills have nothing to do with what you do, but how you do it.

[Mayim Bialik]

This is what Jonathan talks about a lot in terms of business, in terms of scaling business. You know, Jonathan comes from, you know, startups and like, all things that I don't understand. And he talks a lot about this and I usually, like, fall asleep while he's trying to explain it to me because, you know, I. I just. I don't think that way. I don't stretch things out that way.

[Oz Perlman]

Well, think about, think about. If you're a vc, I do stuff all the time for venture capital firms, for private equity funds, people whose job is to do exactly what I'm doing, right? But not to guess a number, not to guess a name. Mariah Carey for Snoop Dogg. But to look somebody in the eyes who's a founder, who's starting a company that has no revenue, that we're going to invest, Series A and we're going to say ourselves, are they the next Uber? When things get tough, will this founder flounder? What will their leadership skills be like in a year, two years, three years, when they scale?

[Jonathan Cohen]

But this goes back to the methods of observation or what you're tracking.

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't trust either of you. When people are like, oh, I have a company, it's going to be amazing. I'm like, no, you don't.

[Oz Perlman]

I'm with you usually mime. I'm usually exactly the same. I'm like, you're lying to me. Except I know you're lying.

[Mayim Bialik]

Nothing's going to work. You can't. Don't dream something that doesn't exist. Elon Musk did. Well, you're not Elon Musk. Get over yourself. I'm not giving you money.

[Jonathan Cohen]

You were on the Rogan show. He got very upset with you in the clips. He was very uncomfortable. I mean, he was blown away by what you did, but the process, he felt, it felt very uncomfortable. At one moment he puts his hand over his mouth and you say, you've basically told me. Yes, in that moment.

[Oz Perlman]

Yep.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And that's actually what I was the most interested in. I was also interested in, in your comment that, oh, men tend to over exaggerate, women tend to under exaggerate. So that's speaking to a pattern of thought that I think is applicable to everyone and in every situation.

[Oz Perlman]

I want to stop you. It's very important to explain this and I want to say this because I, I'm not trying to debunk people that are body language readers and certain people like nlp, because again, you'll assign me skills that I use in my show, but I am using them where you think that's 90% of the method and it's 10% of the method. That's why I'm in a, in a craft that's built on deception. I'm never showing you my actual hand. So to give you an example, when I will give cues and say, well, men always exaggerate bigger, I'm watching to see how you react. That is actually from the world of psychics where psychics have you in a room. And I am not going to say that nobody is a psychic in this world. That would be just majorly egotistical. But I am yet to have a personal experience with a psychic that I've witnessed where I couldn't do the same thing as them. Very important to understand what I'm saying. But in most instances I could do it better than them. Except I have more of what I feel is an ethical. If I did this to you and we talked to somebody that had died and I'll tell you things that you couldn't possibly know. And then I say, well, listen, I, I, I'm, I'm losing the, the, the feeling to them. I just need to sit another private session for 25 grand. I don't know that I would sleep well. I'd have a distaste in my mouth about how I felt. Now, maybe there are people who are really psychic and I, I've, I've heard stories and I've, and I, I can't say without. They'd be crazy. It's like saying there's no God. Yeah, at best you can be agnostic. But when I see psychics, they know how to cold read. Cold reading is something that exists in the world. Cold reading is when somebody wants to, they with their body language. You say something of interest, they lean in, you Watch their eyes. There's different things that they do because they're interested. When they're bored, they sit back. These are very easy cues to tell in an interview process. I don't need to teach you. It's instinct. So I, when I'm doing this, am doing a lot of things where I'm watching your reaction to what I say, and based on moments of levity where I try to break the ice, and then I get. And we laugh, and then you don't understand, but I'm resetting you. And now I'm doing things where, boom, you don't realize. You think I already figured it out. I'm lying to you. I don't know anything yet. So I get you down this road where you believe I do, you relax. Then you give it away. You don't know that, but it's a series of skills that is designed to elicit reactions. And it's exactly like jazz. It doesn't have a circuitous. Step one, step two, step three. So if I were to tell you right now, here's how you know if someone lies. Step one, step two, step three, I'm a liar. Anyone who tells you they know how anybody lies is a liar. But what you can do is observe someone and based against themselves, you can see the pattern of lies in a polygraph. They can't just strap you in and start asking you questions. They cannot. It's important to know why, because first they need to measure what is your body like when you tell the truth? So they take questions to see what happens when you tell the truth and they mark it. Then they ask you questions that are clearly a lie, like, mine. Is your name really Ruth? You're like, yes, and that's a lie. Like, you can see. So now they can measure against yourself. It's just like blood doping. Certain athletes were pinged for high testosterone because they measured against charts. But this person just had really high testosterone. So we learned, oh, my God, we have to measure people against their own blood over time. That's how they check doping. You measure against yourself. So the best way that I can tell somebody, if you want to learn if somebody in your life is lying to you, I would study their patterns and see when they tell a story in the un they're clearly telling the truth. How do they tell it? What's their cadence? How many details do they add?

[Mayim Bialik]

What.

[Oz Perlman]

Where do they pause? There's just three really easy measures when somebody starts lying. Most people change almost every single one of those measures. They talk quicker, they add extraneous details they don't need. Some people do the opposite and they. But you can tell. You can tell with your kids so easily if they're lying. Once you know your kids well, you can do this with other people as well. But meeting somebody for 10 seconds and knowing if they're lying, that's very hard. I don't even know that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

No. But what I appreciate and what I think is very, very interesting is the testing. When you throw something out and you're testing how people are responding to it, it is all. You're gathering that data as an experiment. So what you're positioning and saying you have, you know, this. Oh, men tend to over exaggerate in that moment. What you're doing is seeing if he validates you or not. And he may say, oh, actually if. If he leans back or he's kind of shakes a small, subtle head. No. Or, you know, if he's not just totally poker face, then you're getting more data. So it's not that you can objectively see this without putting them through some sort of paces in order to get more information.

[Oz Perlman]

Exactly. And it's masqueraded. It's the schmooze. It's what makes the show fun and funny. And again, if you notice, it's the ability to influence people. Because I'm taking you on a journey that if you decide to be a stick in the mud and say, I'm not doing anything, you say, I'm not talking, I'm not anything, then it won't work. It literally, I'm not in control. The audience is in control of my show, but I need to win them over to do my bidding or it will not work.

[Mayim Bialik]

So much of what you're talking about also requires people to know what instinct feels like. So when you say, you know, to kind of like watch a pattern, right? It's like, why do people trust people that they know are untrustworthy? Right? If someone has a pattern of a certain kind of behavior, right? And we keep going back and you know, I don't mean to make you be a relationship expert, but you think of people who are like, this person is a chronic alcoholic and they don't want to stop drinking, but, like, you know, I keep going back, right? What is it? What does it feel like in your body when you are tapping into instinct? Because I think that's a lot of what, you know, I've watched all these people say, like, bring me an artifact and I'll be able to tell you everything about this person and what they're trying to communicate to you from the dead. You know, I've watched all those shows, like, what is it about you that you've learned to tap into instinct? And is that something I can learn to tap into?

[Oz Perlman]

I think that instincts are something that over time, we actually work against ourselves. So I think most people as they're growing up have very strong instincts that with time, you actually. The same way that when you watch your kids and if they're like two or three years old, everything is amazing, everything is wonderful and magical and new. And that's such a joy to see your kids. But then by the time they're six or seven, things are tired, I'm bored. Right? It's like, what was that childhood quality. And kids for, for whatever sake tend to have very good instincts. Like, there's something to. There's something that as you grow up, you have a very strong sense of. I know that you don't know if Easter Bunny's real or Santa's real, but your instincts are very sharp and attuned. And as life continues, many of us start to second guess ourselves in a certain way. I think that in many instances, your first instinct is the correct one and that so many times people say, like, you know what? I don't, I don't really think this person's good for me. But. And then they start going through all these things where they talk themselves out of what the initial one, the initial one was correct. And now all you're doing is lying to yourself to try to create some sort of justification for the rest of it because of the baggage you have. So again, I'm not saying to just like, end something because you got. Seems like a cheater, like, you need to have some sort of validation. But I think, and in my profession, I can tell you that I live by the fact that my instincts are what I trust and rely on. Because when I'm picking people in shows, like I'm doing big shows, thousands of people, and I run out in the crowd. And the, the, the, the X factor is how do I know which person when I look at them in the span of a few seconds based on stuff that I can't even explain to you, the way they inflect, the way they smile, the way they looked away, all of these things, I can instantly, in a moment say, they're going to be perfect for this. They're going to be the one who cries. They're going to be the one who freaks out. They're going to be the one who, you know, yells and runs out of the room. And that's instinct. It's iteration. You've done it over and over and over. So you've gleaned experience, but then you trust your experience. I wish it. I had, like, a good formula for you, but my gut instinct is to tell you that what you thought first is more often right than it is wrong. And notice that if you're really honest with yourself and look like a month or two later, be like, I knew this person wasn't going to work out. I knew they weren't going to work out, but I decided to give it a shot anyway. Notice how that happens. So few and far between. Is it the opposite where you said, I thought this person was great, and then later, oh, I get shell shocked that they're not? It's the opposite.

[Jonathan Cohen]

You said something at the beginning of the podcast that I'm curious to circle back on, which is the difference between reading and influencing. And I think I was watching a. A docu series about mentalists. The big reveal was, you know, being in a boardroom and, you know, them knowing what the person was going to. To share. And, like, it got really down to the specifics. And when you tracked back, you saw that they placed cues, subconscious cues, and there was like 12 subconscious cues on the guest's entire journey from the hotel to the event with, like, signs and, and like all these that you wouldn't normally think, which primed the person in order to, like, reveal the thing. And it makes me think of the clip that you have where you take off the Rocky. You're wearing the Rocky shirt.

[Oz Perlman]

Did your homework, Jonathan. I remember that one.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I did my homework. And maybe you don't want to tell us this, right? Like, so I respect that if you don't want to, you know, reveal the craft. But, like, is that reading the person in. In. Or are you guiding them through an entire course of a. Of a day or a moment where you're priming that person to choose that movie over, you know, because if. If you were to ask me that question, and that's what I did when I was watching that clip, I'm like, if I was in that situation, what would I have picked? And there's probably five movies that I would have picked. Right. I don't think one person has, like, one movie that they're going to pick. So there has to be some guiding force in order to get them to that result.

[Oz Perlman]

So again, that's the window dressing. I know exactly what you're referring to. So in some instances, I Do what I. I perform knowing the story I want you to tell, which is exactly what you just did, which is the story you told is about all these things that happened along the way that made them pick that when that could be completely false and just a red herring explanation that's easier for you to discuss but has nothing to do with how it was actually accomplished. But it makes for a way better story and it's much more intriguing of a premise. And what everything boils down to with what I do is what's the story that's told later. So again, do I know how that's done? Of course I know how it's done. Is it done the way you think it was? Absolutely not. It's done so that at the end of the day you tell this fun story of all these things that you saw along the way. And it might have been much, much simpler than how it perceived. It's Occam's razor. Most things are much simpler than you think of. But I am all about what kind of memories I can create in people and then what story do they tell later. And what's fascinating is that most people don't realize that your memory is not a representation like a carbon copy of reality. In fact, it's completely devoid of reality at certain points. Sometimes rose colored glasses, sometimes, sometimes people don't realize how easily their memory can be manipulated by doing certain very easy things, like great examples, eyewitness testimony. When people are in a very stressful situation, like something happened, a crime or a car accident, you have these heightened levels of adrenaline, cortisone, all these things in your body flood into your brain and it's actually very, very shaky. If you watch True Crime, the person who interrogates you afterward and questions, you can completely mess up your reality by asking leading questions.

[Mayim Bialik]

That's how, that's also. That's how false confessions happen. I mean, there's all sorts of pressure. But we're, we had Dr. Amir Raz on and the Suggestible Brain and we love like, I mean, that book, you know, it absolutely blew my mind, especially from a scientific perspective when you see how these things can be harnessed and are harnessed and used for placebo effect and things like that, you know, even with very, very significant medical conditions. But I think that's, you know, sort of one of the, one of the things that people can't believe is that. But I remember it this way and that's sort of, you know, the, the benefit of the doubt also means saying that, I mean, I have this with my mother all the time, she is so definite, you know, whether it's about like her computer or the password or, you know, like whatever it is. And it's like there's always this, this realm of, of possibility. But I think also, and this is more of a psychology question, and not necessarily for you, but I just want to mention it. You know, people who are pathological liars, people who are compulsive liars, their reality is even different in their own head. You know, when we say people are not reliable narrators of their own experience or, you know, in the worst cases, like when you think of gaslighting, that didn't happen, you're wrong. That's your emotional reaction. You're just premenstrual, you're hormonal, that's. And it can really mess with you, right? This is where these powers can be used kind of, you know, not for entertainment purposes. But I think it's really fascinating that you're able to tap into all of this in a way to sort of, to sort of show in many cases the fallacy of what we think is reality.

[Oz Perlman]

It's 100% true. I mean, you're completely aware of that. That's everything you just said is a fact that your memory isn't infallible and that if you're observant of it and you have to kind of notice it. So I can, I can tell you where this evolved for me. And it was in teenage years. There's a very specific trick I would do at a restaurant. I would do a card trick, and it's a well known card trick, I didn't invent it, where I have somebody take a deck of cards, they shuffle them up, they take out a card, they sign it with their name so we know it's the only card like it in the world. They put it back in the deck, they shuffle it again, they put a rubber band around it. Okay. It's really like, how could you do this? I took the cards, I would throw them up at the ceiling, they would hit the ceiling, they would fall back down and their card was stuck to the ceiling. Great trick. It's a great, great is people freak out. And they loved it, don't get me wrong. And then I'd be at restaurants where they have cards all over the ceiling. And I noticed because I love, love being out of earshot or just in earshot, but out of sight and listening to what people would say after I left a table, right? It's the director's cut. It's like, what are they saying about me when I'm not there? And that's where you learn the real stuff. And I noticed a few times, and I couldn't understand why, that when people would be asked at the next table, next table say to them, dude, what are you doing? What are you doing? He goes, you're not going to believe this. And they would say the trick wrong, okay? They would leave out one very important detail which made it a miracle. They I shuffled the cards, I signed a card, and then you're not gonna believe it. All of a sudden, I look up and the card is on the ceiling. Now, that's a miracle because I threw the deck at the ceiling, it hit the ceiling, then it fell down, and one card stayed up there. It's a very minor point to leave out. But without that point, you shuffle, you put the cards in, and suddenly it's just on the ceiling. That's truly impossible. That's even better than what I did. So I couldn't understand. I'm like, are these people's memory faulty? Like, how. Why is that happening? And I tried to dissect the same way. When you make a recipe, you tweak a little ingredient here, a little ingredient there, and figure out, what does it taste like, what's the perfect. And it hit me. It took like, a few months, but I realized it was so minor. But if when I threw the deck up, I didn't look up, I didn't take their gaze and move up. I just threw the deck up, it hit the ceiling, it fell down in my hand. Then, because I didn't assign importance to the throw, people wouldn't always look up. They would notice. I'd catch the deck. I'd wait for them to look up and notice the card. And when I did that, the hit rate was through the roof of when they would tell the story to someone else, they forgot to mention me throwing the cards up. And it was like this, aha, light bulb moment where I realized that what we give focus to is what others give focus to. And this is, you know, this in life, where people around you who are negative, who are always complainers, who always talk about why they don't have something and why this person got it and they should have. And that kind of stuff, that kind of negativity keeps feeding on itself versus I know people in my life who are super positive, who, when I get off the phone with them, I'm, like, jazzed. I'm like, let's go. They're always that want to do something yeah, they always have the uplifting energy versus the negative energy. Again, you are what you focus on. And so I learned that in my tricks. I. I could retell the story while they're at peak amazement. When you're in the peak amazement, I retell the story. I leave out the things I want you to forget. And I do it in such a way that it recap. It rewires your brain. So when you tell the story back to someone else, you're gonna say it the way I said it.

[Mayim Bialik]

Oh, my God. Oh, how did the card get on the ceiling? I don't get it.

[Oz Perlman]

That one is actually easier to do. I'm not going to tell you, but that's an easier trick than anything I will do for you today. Jonathan was very obsessed with one concept, which is how did we read people. My. How long have you known Jonathan? How. How many years have you known him?

[Mayim Bialik]

Too long.

[Oz Perlman]

Too long indeed.

[Mayim Bialik]

If that's the answer, we've known each other 15 years.

[Oz Perlman]

Okay, so we're going to go back. Let me ask you a question right now. My. Think of somebody that you know very, very well, that you probably talk to on a very regular basis.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay.

[Oz Perlman]

Did you just do that right now? Was it spontaneous?

[Mayim Bialik]

Sure. Yeah.

[Oz Perlman]

So if I right now say, think of that person, right? And I. I want. I want to guess that person's name. It's kind of like when with Joe Rogan. I guess the pin code, the first thought people said is, oh, he. He must have looked it up. Now the pin code's hard to look up. But shockingly, people, you know, especially if you don't have a best friend is you have social media. What if you've posted a picture of them? What if they posted a picture of you? What if there was a birthday wish like a year ago on Facebook? So right now, if I try to guess this person, the skeptical mind goes, that was. He guided her towards somebody obvious. Also, I said, you've known each other 15 years. So how about this? I'm going to go back in time to pre social media to before you knew Jonathan. And I want. I want you m. Close your eyes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay.

[Oz Perlman]

Go back in time, and I want you to. Visually, I want you to picture the face. And this is typically elementary school, middle school. Picture the face of your first crush. Can you picture what he looked like? Can you still see it? Or is it tough to, like, fully form the image?

[Mayim Bialik]

Got it.

[Oz Perlman]

Open your eyes. Is this. Is there any way in the world that this is on your social media or that this was Brought up on a previous episode of Breakdown or Jeopardy. I don't know why I'd be on Jeopardy. That'd be super weird. But is there any way, shape or form that this came up in a conversation that was aired or exists anywhere? Does Jonathan know who this is?

[Mayim Bialik]

No.

[Oz Perlman]

So it's safe to say this is not a matter of sleuthing before today, Right? I made you think of this person. When was the last time that he had even entered into your thoughts before today? Was it like months or years?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Years.

[Oz Perlman]

Okay. So here, watch. Jonathan, you ask how we do it. This is a. A puzzle that seems to have no solution. It's not something we could have found out in advance. She hadn't thought of this person in years. It doesn't exist anywhere. I want you. Not with your fingers. Whenever people do the fingers, I can see them. Try to do this entirely inside of your brain. Count the number of letters in the first name just to yourself, not out loud, just to yourself. Okay, so notice how quickly she said okay. You ask me, is this like a skill? It's an easy skill. She said, okay, lightning fast. If that name was a long name, Alexander Mitchell. Especially if it has two letters. Two letters throw people off an account. You could not have counted that fast.

[Mayim Bialik]

Wait, but I have a question. I was saying okay to the instructions.

[Oz Perlman]

Whatever you want to say. Whatever you want to say to yourself to justify. I think I know that you just gave something away because you had finished counting and so you knew it quickly. And. And if you have a kid in first grade and they're learning to, to read, they have sight words. They don't know how to read the words. They look at the words by sight. You just did a sight word. I'm going to guess. And again, we're doing this over a camera where I can't see you don't say anything. I would guess that the name was three, four or five letters, but three letters would have been slightly. A hint faster. So I think it's four or five. I think it's four letters. The name is four letters long, isn't it?

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

So again, how we just narrow down from every possible name that exists to a four letter name? Do you have a pad of paper or something you can write on there that can be out of camera view where there's no way I could see it. So people don't know that you're not colluding or just pretending?

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

Grab a pad of paper and ideally a marker or a pen or something that we see with. And either Cover your camera with your hand if you want, which I don't mind you doing. I think that's a good idea. And then write it down as big as you can, but cover the camera so we cannot see what you're writing. There's no way in the world.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Also, your decision between was it going to be four letters or five is very interesting because you're tracking something in that moment.

[Oz Perlman]

I'm playing the odds, too. So you've got the name. It's hidden off camera. I can't see it, but we can show it later to. To validate and prove this. If it does indeed work. You have four letters. We're playing a game of hangman, you and me. Mim. Look down at the letters and I don't want you to physically do it, but imagine you reach down, you go back and forth, you weigh your options. You don't know which one. You jump to this letter. You go to this letter. And in your mind, not out loud, you. You circle one of the letters on the paper. Don't actually do, but think of yourself doing. Could you see yourself circling one of those four letters? Okay, okay, I. Okay, so I said one of those four letters in the name. Now, again, this isn't a. A thing, but it's how you influence people in the name tends to make you avoid the first letter, because starting is different than in. You weren't circling the first letter, were you? No, because that would have been a different feeling. Also, Mayim is smart and a very hard and skeptic. So she goes, if I give away the first letter, he's going to freaking figure out the name. So she wouldn't have done the first letter. She wouldn't have done it. So then I asked myself, which one did she jump to? Now, unless this is like a hardcore Polish name, there's got to be some vowels in there. There's probably one or two vowels, you know, like a Z and X and a Z. You know, I've got some Polish fans, but those names are brutal. Never done a show in Poland, but you probably avoided the vowels, because I've always called it. There's a negative connotation. They cost money on Wheel of Fortune. You didn't do a vowel, did you?

[Mayim Bialik]

No.

[Oz Perlman]

Again. So there we go. Say the letter in your mind over and over that you circle. Don't say it's not the last letter. Say it over and over in your head, just like you're saying it, like you're feeling the mouth feel of it. It's so tough on this camera because I can't see you. Well, I. I think it's one of two. I think it's one of two, but I don't know. But it's the. It's the hissing sound. That's the pursing, the lips. The C is the letter you were thinking of. A C, Yeah. Yes, It's a C, right? Like C as in cat. Is that correct?

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah.

[Oz Perlman]

This is not premeditated. This is not staged or set up. We have never spoken to each other in our lives before today. I want to make sure we had never met in our lives. You could have thought of anybody. You think of your first crush. Jonathan doesn't even know it. Look down. I don't know how it's pronounced weird, but it's like. How did he say it? It's like it's got to be with a T, but it's not. It's tacy, tacky. T, A C, Y. Is that the name?

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Oz Perlman]

Turn it around. Show.

[Mayim Bialik]

There it is.

[Oz Perlman]

Jonathan's not impressed. He goes, that's a very common name. It's a very, very common name.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It's a very uncommon name.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay, do another one. I want another one.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It's very impressive. And like the mouth, like. Is he reading your mouth as you're saying it? Is he like looking at how your mouth is moving because your mouth is going to betray or portray what is going on in your head is the real question.

[Oz Perlman]

You know what? That's all of these questions and more shameless self promotion. But if you're enjoying this and it's going to be a good read, I promise you this. And even better if you get the audiobook. I am very animated. But that is what it's all about. The. This is the key one. The quote on the front says, learn to master the most powerful weapon, your mind by David Goggins. And that's honestly what the book is all about. This is the most powerful thing and if you can kind of know how to use it more effectively, unlock so many doors. And this is one of them, which is 30 years in the work of just how to freak people out. But I want to give you some of the same skills.

[Mayim Bialik]

Amazing. Where can people find out more about you? What's your website or where can people find you?

[Oz Perlman]

Like, I have a website. You can go to it. It's Oz Perlman. It's a weird name because it looks like Oz. You know, blame the wizard of Oz. Blame my folks. But I would just go to social where it's Oz Thementalist. So it looks like s thementalist name happens to be Oz. But at Oz the Mentalist, you'll see all my shows, TV appearances. That's the best place to find me.

[Mayim Bialik]

Amazing. Thank you so much. We wish you great things with the book and thanks for being here.

[Oz Perlman]

Thanks for having me.

[Mayim Bialik]

So you may notice we've had a little change of scenery here.

[Jonathan Cohen]

We actually did a magic trick. It was the same day we snapped our fingers. We're in new outfits and new locations. Just kidding.

[Mayim Bialik]

The reason that we wanted to record this outro is we wanted to think a little bit about how to put a button on this episode we just did with Oze. So you may have noticed in the reveal of the name.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Oh, you have it there.

[Mayim Bialik]

You may have noticed that I wasn't super shocked. And it is a. I've. This trick is one that he's done before and usually the reaction is like, what? And I'm gonna. We're being very, very honest with our community here. This was a decision we made. I figured out how he knew that name. I figured it out. And I figured it out kind of as it was happening because he could.

[Jonathan Cohen]

See your eyes moving and your eyes were spelling the name and I could hear it. That wasn't it.

[Mayim Bialik]

That wasn't it. And I'm. I'm choosing not to reveal how I figured it out and what the quote secret is. That doesn't feel right to do. However, we had this choice. Do we, you know, act like I hadn't figured it out or do we do what we're doing now? So what we're doing now is say that we had a really, really great time talking to Oze. But with this particular case, we just. We felt like we wanted to add this on just to say that's why I didn't have a huge reaction and have a lot of respect for what he does. Very entertaining. Very exciting, Very interesting.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I also think that the remote aspect is very different than being in person. Now, while you are a PhD in neuroscience and you understand the inner workings of all of our brains, but I also think that it is a different experience and he's able to get a different level of information from the people he's working with when he's able to read their cues. And. And as he says, he's always leading. Right. He's always saying something to see a reaction, to see what he can get. And oh, clearly over zoom or the Internet is very different.

[Mayim Bialik]

And even, you know, from what I know, because I really do. I like magic. I Like mentalists. You know, we've talked to others here, Scott. Barry Kaufman is one of them. Amir Raz, you know, we've talked to other doctors who are, you know, who are into that world and into prestidigitation. It's actually the big word. There's even, you know, a hierarchy of skill, right, in terms of close up magic versus, like stage magic. So like, doing like close up magic is a special kind of magic. It's like that sleight of hand. I mean, I've had, I wear a, you know, digital, you know, old school Casio watch. Usually. I have had a clo. A close magician person at a party take my watch off my wrist and put it on his own, all strapped up. You know, the kind of Casio where you have to like peel it back, put the thing in, put the strap through. I had that done and I had no idea. I wasn't drunk. I remember it was a Disney party. That level of I was this close to this person who took my watch and it wasn't like a slide off watch is what I'm saying. And then he put it on his own and he said to me, what time is it, by the way, at the end of the bit? And I was like, what? I don't. And he held up his wrist and he was like, that's a whole other level. So I'm going to grant that you're right. Doing this by zoom, very, very difficult. And in person, I would love to see Ozark.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That's crazy that you had that experience, because in the movies, like in Ocean's Eleven, like those movies, you see Matt Damon and he's like this amazing pickpocket and he's like, oh, but I always think, oh, that's so fake. People can actually do that. You would always 100% feel it. And I, a little bit, I'm not 100%. Like, I still feel skeptical. I'm like, maybe she was distracted and sometimes she wears her shoes on the wrong feet. So maybe she didn't have the physical awareness to know that someone was pulling a watch off of her. You know, what I am struck by in this episode is something that aligns a lot to the spiritual practices that we talk about into the way in which people have intuition that they are sensing more than they're actually processing. Right? Like we're processing billions of bits of information all the time, but consciously we're only processing a very small fraction of that. And that, you know, when he says your first instinct is right, to almost always trust that and to get really clear and practiced at not having your mind rationalize that first instinct, maybe unpack it. I'm not saying if it says you should move out of the country today, you should just immediately do that.

[Oz Perlman]

Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Like, I'm very big in understanding instinct with a level of rational explanation, but not dismissing that instinct, looking to unpack it and to follow it.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah. And I think just something that was interesting to me, you know, Oz is kind of. He's sort of very humble, like, oh, I just do this like it's a gift and like, I honed it and blah, blah, blah. I think that, like, you know, I always love to ask, like, what would this person have been doing for a living 3,000 years ago, 5,000 years ago? What did this level right. Of acuity, intuition, and sensitivity equip him or humans for? That he is able to kind of tap into and hone. And that, you know, I think, is some of the most interesting parts of mentalism, of magic, and honestly, of interacting with other humans. What can I make you believe? What do I believe myself? And how do we work with that, you know, to create a shared reality?

[Jonathan Cohen]

I'm really appreciative of being on this journey of this podcast with you and everyone here, increasing my intuition, changing the way that I see reality, and meeting people that we would never otherwise cross paths with. So thank you, everyone, for being here.

[Mayim Bialik]

From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

[Oz Perlman]

It's Maya Bialik's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two, fiction. And now she's going to break down. To break down. She's going to break it down.