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How Consciousness Creates Our Reality. Why Science & Spirituality Can’t Explain Reality and the Scientific Breakthrough That Could Change Life As We Know it. - Mayim Bialik's Breakdown | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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How Consciousness Creates Our Reality. Why Science & Spirituality Can’t Explain Reality and the Scientific Breakthrough That Could Change Life As We Know it.

Mayim Bialik's Breakdown

Tue Nov 04 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Mayim Bialik's Breakdown
Episode: How Consciousness Creates Our Reality. Why Science & Spirituality Can’t Explain Reality and the Scientific Breakthrough That Could Change Life As We Know it.
Release Date: November 4, 2025
Host: Mayim Bialik
Guests: Dr. Donald Hoffman (Cognitive Scientist), Jonathan Cohen (Producer/Co-Host)

Overview

This episode delves into profound questions at the intersection of science and spirituality: Is our experience of reality an illusion? Is consciousness fundamental to everything, and if so, how do tools from science, math, and spirituality converge to answer the biggest mysteries of existence?
Dr. Donald Hoffman, a leading cognitive scientist, discusses his provocative view that space and time are not fundamental realities, but rather a kind of “VR headset” for consciousness. The conversation unpacks why both physics and spiritual traditions point to something “beyond spacetime,” why neither camp alone has the full answer, and the potential for a mathematical breakthrough to revolutionize what we think is possible—from consciousness, to healing, to technology itself.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Space-Time VR Headset” & Consciousness as Primary Reality

Dr. Hoffman asserts: What we perceive—objects, bodies, space, and even time—is constructed by consciousness; it’s not the bedrock reality.
- Quote: "Everything you see inside of space time is your construction. From the consciousness point of view. Spacetime isn't fundamental. It's just a VR headset." (00:00)
He explains that neuroscience provides clues about how this “headset” is generated, but deeper reality remains beyond sensory experience.
Space and time, he argues, break down at the Planck scale, and even the best scientific theories (quantum theory, relativity) show their own limitations (07:36, 31:15).

2. Where Science and Spirituality Meet

Jonathan Cohen crystallizes the dilemma: "Do I believe in science or do I believe in God? Is there a place where those two things literally meet?" (00:41)
Dr. Hoffman’s view: Science has mathematical rigor but is now forced by physics to admit spacetime is incomplete; Spiritual traditions intuited that spacetime isn’t final, but lack explanatory models and experiments.
- Quote: “The physicalists, the scientists have had the rigor of mathematical models, and the spiritual people have had the idea that space and time aren't fundamental... But they've not had any mathematical tools.” (09:23)

3. Metaphors for Reality: From Plato’s Cave to Modern VR

Modern analogies, like video games and VR, best help us understand the illusion:
- Quote: “Think of it as a VR headset. Everything that you're seeing is a VR headset.” (21:35)
Plato’s allegory of the cave is cited as a precursor; what we see are shadows, not the real objects (25:51, 26:04).

4. Personal and Emotional Impact

Dr. Hoffman applies these concepts to daily experience and identity:
- Our sense of being “chained” to our body or to a linear timeline is itself constructed; we are “infinite consciousness looking through a very, very small headset.” (01:15, 28:21)
- Letting go of these “chains” is both an emotional and intellectual challenge, often requiring practices akin to deep meditation (28:21).

5. Limits and Power of Scientific Models

Discussion of how science constructs models based on assumptions; Einstein and quantum theory both start with space and time as “miracles” or axioms, but show their own breakdown (31:15).
Quote: “Every scientific theory starts with a miracle or some miracles. We call them our assumptions, but they're the miracles of the theory.” (34:20)
Scientific progress, at its best, knows its limits and seeks to move beyond them.

6. Simulation Theory vs. Hoffman’s View

Dr. Hoffman makes a clear distinction between his theory and standard simulation hypotheses:
- Simulation theories assume a “base level” reality that is itself within spacetime and that computers can create consciousness de novo—a claim he says lacks evidence.
- Quote: “My point of view is superficially like the simulation kind of theories, but it has very, very deep differences. Computers cannot create consciousness de novo from just the computational.” (37:49)

7. AI, Language Models, and Human Consciousness

Dr. Hoffman acknowledges the usefulness of large language models (like ChatGPT), but insists these do not constitute intelligence or consciousness:
- Quote: “They don't understand what they're doing... they're very, very helpful. But I also know how to ask them questions that reveal that they're dumber than cucumbers.” (45:04)
- There is no mathematical or scientific model that explains how physical computation gives rise to a specific conscious experience (47:14).
On linking brain activity to consciousness: Correlation does not imply causation, and all “neural correlates” studies do not actually solve the hard problem (51:33).

8. Substances and Spiritual Experience

The show references psychedelic experiences as another (sometimes hand-waved) way to “remove the headset,” but Hoffman urges scientific rigor:
- Both scientists and spiritualists must provide testable, predictive theories if they want their ideas to be taken seriously in the modern age (55:37, 56:45).

9. Demands for a Unified Theory

Dr. Hoffman advocates for a new mathematical theory—a “theory of consciousness” outside space and time, that can nonetheless give rise to all the successes of current physics (like relativity, quantum mechanics).
- Until spiritual or anomalous claims produce predictions or explanations of phenomena like Einstein’s equations, he insists, they remain “out of the game.” (58:50)
- He is optimistic that such a theory, once achieved, will be transformative both technologically and for our understanding of ourselves (62:26).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Dr. Hoffman: "Ultimately, who are you? You are the infinite consciousness looking through a very, very small headset... But you are that infinite consciousness." (01:05)
Jonathan Cohen: "I love when people accidentally prove God." (01:27)
Dr. Hoffman: "We know exactly where [spacetime] ceases to make sense. It doesn't make sense at 10 to the -33 centimeters and 10 to the -43 seconds." (07:36)
Jonathan Cohen: "[Plato’s allegory:] They are chained to the reality of the cave and all they see is their perception and their interpretation of shadows on the wall. However... people like you, Donald Hoffman, are saying we can release those chains and we can step outside of that cave now..." (26:19)
Mayim Bialik: "What does it mean for someone in their everyday life to be chained to a false reality or to their perception?... What does that mean to me if I'm just going about my daily life?" (27:53)
Dr. Hoffman: "None of it exists apart from your experiences... To the extent that you're identified with your body... this is a very, very deep psychological and emotional kind of attachment." (28:21)
Dr. Hoffman: "If you're assuming that the fundamental simulation is at the base level in a space time, then you're violating what the physicists are telling us... I wanted to make a clean distinction between what I'm saying and the simulation theory." (39:28)
Dr. Hoffman: "If you think conscious experiences arise from physical systems like computers? Give me one theory that science has done, like the taste of mint or the smell of garlic. Give me one. Until you have one on the board, there's nothing to take." (47:14)
Dr. Hoffman: "I'll put it this way... If you want people to take you seriously in this age, you need to do something to show that this isn't... [just] hoaxes and mistakes and illusions from the spiritual side... I want a theory that gives me, for example, Einstein's special theory of relativity. I want the length contractions and time dilations..." (56:45)
Dr. Hoffman: “If we get one [theory] that works, then those who said that they knew it couldn’t be done were flat wrong.” (62:25)

Key Timestamps

00:00 – Dr. Hoffman: Spacetime as a VR headset, consciousness as primary reality
01:00 – Sci-fi analogies (Matrix) for altering the "laws" of the headset
04:26 – How this could change medicine, time, well-being
07:36 – Why physicists now doubt spacetime is fundamental; Planck scale explained
21:35 – The VR headset metaphor for consciousness/perception
25:51 – Plato’s allegory of the cave as ancient precursor to simulation/VR theory
28:21 – Emotional and personal dimensions: being "chained" to the body
31:15 – How scientific theories’ core assumptions “break down”; the Planck limit
37:49 – Distinction from simulation hypotheses
45:04 – AI doesn’t have real intelligence or consciousness; LLM limitations
47:14 – No scientific theory of how computation produces specific conscious experiences
51:33 – Neural correlates of consciousness: correlation ≠ causation
55:37 – Demand for rigor from both science and spirituality; what counts as evidence
58:50 – Only through mathematical, predictive models can spiritual ideas gain scientific traction
62:25 – Why Dr. Hoffman believes a theory of consciousness “outside spacetime” is achievable—and necessary

Takeaways

Both scientific and spiritual traditions have glimpsed aspects of reality's true nature, but each is missing pieces the other offers.
The next revolution in understanding—bringing about new technologies, forms of wellness, and insights into our true identity—may only come when we build a precise, mathematical, testable theory that unites consciousness, matter, and spacetime from the ground up.
Dr. Hoffman’s work invites us to both humility (knowing the limits of our models) and awe (that something transcendent may be just beyond the “headset”), while insisting on the tough rigor of science.

This summary captures the core of this deeply philosophical and scientifically grounded conversation, offering newcomers a set of conceptual handles and memorable moments to understand and discuss how consciousness might fundamentally create our reality.

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Transcript

Dr. Donald Hoffman (0:00)

Everything you see inside of space time is your construction. From the consciousness point of view. Spacetime isn't fundamental. It's just a VR headset. The brain is giving us some clues about how the headset is being generated. There's some deeper reality. It's up to each of us to take off our own headset.

Jonathan Cohen (0:17)

Dr. Donald Hoffman is a cognitive science professor from MIT. He has spent his career exploring how we perceive reality and trick ourselves into into believing this is all there is, when in fact there is a lot more. And we know that it's there.

Dr. Donald Hoffman (0:34)

We're at this interesting intersection where high energy theoretical physics is now saying there's something beyond space time. And what is it?

Jonathan Cohen (0:41)

The hardest thing that many laypeople have to decide is, do I believe in science or do I believe in God? Is there a place where those two things literally meet?

Dr. Donald Hoffman (0:51)

The technologies that we should eventually evolve are going to be mind boggling. Once you know how to program the headset, you make the laws of the headset and you can change them.

Mayim Bialik (1:00)

Could this technology allow me to download a language? Could it allow me to regrow a.

Dr. Donald Hoffman (1:05)

Limb in the Matrix? Right. Neo all of a sudden downloads something into I know Kung Fu. I'm not saying I know how to do it. I'm saying I don't see a principled obstruction. Ultimately, who are you? You are the infinite consciousness looking through a very, very small headset. You've chosen to go from infinity to just a few trillion experiences. But you are that infinite consciousness.

Jonathan Cohen (1:27)

I love when people accidentally prove God.

Mayim Bialik (1:30)

But is there a risk with unlocking this capability?

Dr. Donald Hoffman (1:33)

Absolutely. Once you have that kind of power, you're playing God. Wow.

Mayim Bialik (1:44)

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Dr. Donald Hoffman (7:36)

Well, there is an interesting revolution happening in science right now. It's quite stunning. The assumption that space and time are fundamental or their combination, space, time is fundamental, has been a very valuable and useful foundational idea for many, many decades. Centuries, actually. High energy theoretical physicists, though, have realized that spacetime cannot be fundamental. It falls apart at the Planck scale. So we know exactly where it ceases to make sense. It doesn't make sense at 10 to the -33 centimeters and 10 to the -43 seconds. So it's not that, you know, some cognitive scientist is saying we need to think out of the box. I'm just listening to what the physicists are saying, the high energy theoretical physicists, and they're saying we need to find a new framework that's outside of space time. And they're going after it. Right, there's. The European Research council has a 10 million euro initiative on these positive geometries beyond space time that the physicists are now studying. So it's not like some maverick cognitive scientist is the first to say, hey, this is over for space time. No, I'm cheering on what the high energy theoretical physicists have been saying for quite a while. But I'm saying we need to look outside of physical categories, perhaps now space time kinds of categories. And that's hard to do. I mean, this is requiring real big leaps. So what the physicists are finding are these positive geometries. They're just static objects. They're like monoliths outside of space time. And their shapes and volumes code for particle interactions inside spacetime. Remarkably, they actually give you the probabilities for various kinds of particle interactions. But why, you know, is anybody's guess about why these things are doing that and so forth. So we don't have a good framework of what's outside of spacetime. I mean, that's the big question. If space time isn't fundamental first, what could that possibly mean? What could possibly be outside of space time? That's the first question most of us go, spacetime is the foundation of reality. What are you even talking about? So the physicists are saying, whatever space time is, it falls apart at blank scale. So we have to find something outside of spacetime. And it's anybody's guess what it is. Now, spiritual traditions, of course, have been there for thousands of years. They've been saying spacetime is not, or space and time are the final reality. There's something well beyond space and time. And they've had techniques like meditation and so forth to help you to sort of transcend the notion of space time. So both sides have had a piece of the puzzle. The physicalists, the scientists have had the rigor of mathematical models, and the spiritual people have had the idea that space and time aren't fundamental, that there's something deeper than that. But they've not had any mathematical tools. They've only had intuitive tools and so forth. And we can see this coming together historically with Galileo and the Church, right? So here we have the clashing of the two world approaches where the church, the Catholic Church at the time, said that they had the authority of miracles and that everybody should submit because they had the authority of Mary. And Galileo was saying, no, I've got mathematics and experiments, and mathematics and experiments overrule whatever you might claim on your authority. And so there's Been this division ever since, right? Because you know, the church put Galileo under house arrest, he died under house arrest and he was forced to recant his scientific views about the earth not being the center of the universe. Well, you know, in retrospect the church agreed they were wrong and they apologized. Right? So but it took four centuries or something like that for them to apologize. But science and spirituality really diverged then and we've seen them go separate paths. And for a while it was sort of, you know, important to diverge because you really needed to establish something separate from authority. You needed to have math and experiments. But now we're at this interesting intersection where high energy theoretical physics is now saying oh, now we agree that there's something beyond space time and what is it we're finding these positive geometries, these obelisks, but what do they mean? And the spiritual traditions still don't have any mathematical tools. So here's the position we're in. It seems like science has one part of the puzzle. We have mathematical models and we have experiments. This is how you make progress and really understanding things. The spiritual traditions say we understand that there's something beyond space time. And the physicists are now saying yeah, I think there is something beyond space time. How can we try to put these two pictures together? So that's where science is right now and where spirituality is. So to summarize, the spiritual trad are outside of space time, but there's no math and there's no experiments. Now someone might say well yeah, there are experiments looking for like anomalous phenomena and so forth. And yeah, I have friends who are scientists who are looking for psi phenomena and so forth. But any hard nosed scientist is going to say experiments without a theory aren't going to move me very much. If you are doing these psi experiments and you're finding these anomalous results, I want you to first give me a theory that predicts the exact values of the anomalous results that you're getting. Otherwise, what can I say except maybe you made a mistake. If you have a theory that predicts something to the, you know, eight decimal places and you get that eight decimal place result and the other then the scientific theories around can't do it and a couple other labs replicate you. But then of course scientists are going to pay attention, right? But just to say I've got something that doesn't fit in, they're not going to pay attention. So what the spiritual traditions and those thinking outside of spacetime idealists, for example, have lacked is a rigorous mathematical model that makes testable predictions from outside of space time. And what the physicalists understand now is we have to go beyond space time. And they're doing rigorous mathematical models, but they don't know what they mean. These are positive geometries, but who ordered them? Right, it's who ordered this? I wanted to get the best of both. I want to use absolute hard nosed mathematical models and experiments from the scientific side, no nonsense, but I want to step outside of space time and take the idea that consciousness is fundamental quite seriously. So that means no hand wave. Give me a mathematical model of conscious experience, period. And with that mathematical model give me exactly how space time can arise again. Precisely. So how does Einstein's Minkowski space, the flat space time of Einstein come out of this? Or how does the curved spacetime of Einstein come out of this? And general relativity? And how does quantum mechanics come out of this? Because when space time is doomed, so is quantum theory. Quantum fields for example, are defined over spacetime. So just not enough to say, oh yeah, so we're going to go quantum on this. That's not enough. When you go quantum you're still stuck with spacetime. Quantum fields are defined over space time. And if you're in non quantum field theory, if you're just doing standard Schrodinger evolution, then you've got time as a parameter, an explicit parameter, and so you're stuck in time. So it's not enough to say we're going quantum, that that gets you not out of space time. So we have to really think out of the box. Right? So space time is doomed. Now I'm quoting physicists like Nima Arkani Hamed and David Gross. So this is not just a cognitive scientist saying this. I'm just quoting some high energy theoretical physicists who say spacetime is doomed. And they'll say explicitly that means quantum theory isn't fundamental either. So we have to go outside of space time and quantum theory together. And that doesn't. So many of the in the spiritual traditions who are trying to go to the next step are still holding on to quantum theory. And I'm saying you hold on to quantum theory, you're holding on to a dead horse. This is, you've got to go beyond quantum theory.

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Dr. Donald Hoffman (21:35)

In my book the Case Against Reality, I'm proposing that the first step is to understand that spacetime, from the consciousness point of view, spacetime is just a headset. There's some reality outside of space time and it's being filtered through a headset. So if that's the case, then there are certain things that we should expect. We should expect that objects don't exist when they're not perceived. Right. And the reason for that is the following. Suppose that you're playing a virtual reality game like Grand Theft Auto and you see in front of you a red Mustang that you're chasing, for example. Well, there is no red Mustang in the supercomputer that's running the game. Right. If you looked inside, there's diodes and resistors and voltages and so forth. There's no red Mustang in there at all. So where is that red Mustang? Where does it exist? I certainly see it. So I'm looking, I see a red Mustang. If I turn my headset that way, I no longer see it. That's because I'm no longer rendering it. The pixels on my screen are no longer rendering something that I see as a Mustang, a red Mustang in front of me. So, but, but you, you can say, but every time you look back, you'll see it. Absolutely. Every time you look back, you'll see it. And the other players, if it's a multiplayer game, they'll all say, well, you know, Don, look away from the red Mustang. I look away. I can still see it. Don't. So that proves that the red Mustang is really there. No, it just means that you're rendering it in your headset when I'm not rendering it in mine. So the first metaphor I propose in my book basically is to say, if you're having a hard time imagining what it could possibly mean, that spacetime isn't fundamental. Here's the metaphor that will really help you. Think of it as a VR headset. Everything that you're seeing is a VR headset. And all the reasons that you might give for why it couldn't possibly be the case that I'm creating everything I see, just take it into a VR set context and ask your question there. And you'll realize that all the things that you think are drop dead proofs that you're seeing reality as it is just are not. So that's the real simple thing. So that's one of the big things I do in my book, is to just really help people to grasp with the virtual reality. Metaphor. How? It could be that when I'm not looking at the moon, you see the moon and yet the moon doesn't exist when it's not perceived. Right? So that really bothered Einstein. Einstein said, do you really believe the moon doesn't exist when it's not perceived? And most of us think that's a drop dead stopping question for this whole approach. And the idea then is just simple. I render my moon when I look, and you render your moon when you look. And whatever reality is, it's not a moon. That's just your headset representation. Just like there's no red Mustang in the supercomputer. You render the red Mustang when you see it and you don't render it when you don't. So that's the first step. It's a baby step, but it's the first step. I'm not yet talking about a scientific theory. I'm just trying to take the first baby step to get over the idea that this is impossible. You have to be nuts to even think this way. So we have to get over that hurdle before we can actually get into. Here's how you build a scientific theory.

Dr. Donald Hoffman (28:21)

Well, there's an emotional way of thinking about that and also an intellectual way. And I can maybe just briefly talk about on an emotional sense. I think I am my body, right? Because I think that objects in spacetime are real, that they exist even when they're not perceived. So this is where it gets very personal. When I say the moon doesn't exist unless you perceive it. That also holds for your own body. Your body exists when you perceive it and it doesn't exist when it's not perceived. So that's where now people start to say, okay, this is getting very, very weird. But that's where it's going to go. It leads to everything you see inside of space time is your construction. None of it exists apart from your experiences. So on a personal Level to the extent that you're identified with your body. And by the way, I am. So this is a very, very deep psychological and emotional kind of attachment. And people who are in the mystical traditions will say that usually it takes many, many decades of intense meditation to let go of the illusion, the chain, to use your Plato's phrase, the chain to our own body. So that's, so that's. I chose that one because that's right there on your face. Everybody's chained to their bodies. I am chained to my body. And very, very few people escape those chains. And so to the extent that I'm afraid about dying, for example, I'm in those chains. And so I will confess I'm chained. Right. So on an emotional level, I'm saying, intellectually, the chain is not being able to think what could possibly be beyond spacetime. It's like I've actually given a talk where brilliant physicists or scientists that I know will ask me, what in the world are you even talking about? I can't even imagine what you're talking about. Something beyond space time. Space time is reality. What could you possibly mean? So that's an intellectual chain to not even be able to think outside of spacetime. But, but again, high energy theoretical physicists are doing that now.

Dr. Donald Hoffman (31:15)

Right. So, so to say that space time is fundamental is to say that there is this physical world that we've seen that came into existence maybe 13.8 billion years ago at the Big Bang. And there was no consciousness to begin with, presumably at the Big Bang, there was just high energies at high temperatures, right? And this thing is expanded and cooled down and it's been going for all these billions of years, and it's now, as far as we can see, it's many tens of billions of light years across, at least what we can see. Perhaps it goes off to infinity and maybe it cycles, maybe it collapses, and maybe there's some kind of expansion and contraction and so forth. But that's the whole story. Now there is a multiverse kind of take on it. Maybe there's a bunch of different kinds of quote unquote space times that have different dimensions and different properties and so forth. So there's that kind of possibility. But what we're saying now in the high energy theoretical physics is the very notion of space time itself has no operational meaning. That means there are no experiments that you can do with it at beyond the Planck scale. All experiments are no longer sensible. So this is a really fundamental sense in which it no longer exists. I can say why. So suppose that you're trying to measure something that's really, really small, right? So you need to have a good microscope. And the smaller it is, the more powerful your microscope needs to be. And what that means is you're using smaller and smaller wavelengths of light or some kind of radiation. But I'll say light, but physicists use all kinds of radiation. It has to have smaller and smaller wavelengths if you're going to resolve finer and finer details. And that's fine in quantum theory, that's perfectly fine. You can just keep going smaller and smaller. But relativity theory is the problem, as you, Einstein told us that mass and energy are the same thing. And quantum theory tells us that energy is proportional to the frequency. The smaller the wavelength, the higher the energy. So as we're using smaller, smaller wavelengths in more and more powerful microscopes, the energy is going up and the energy density is going up because it's concentrated in a small area. And Einstein tells us, well, that means you're concentrating mass in a small area. And at some point, the mass density is so high that you create a black hole and you actually destroy the very thing you're trying to observe. And this happens at 10 to the minus 33 centimeters and 10 to the minus 40 or 10 to the minus 43 seconds. And for me, that's very shallow. That's only 10 to the minus 33. It's not 10 to the minus 33 trillion centimeters, it's just 10 to the minus 33 centimeters. So we have a pretty cheap headset. The headset resolution only goes down to 10 to the minus 33cm and then it falls apart. So it really is, we're reaching in some sense the resolution limits of this space time VR headset. And we actually know where it is now. That's the power, by the way, of science. And this is a really important thing about science. Einstein starts off with the assumption that spacetime is fundamental. That's one of the fundamental ideas. And he gives us all this mathematics and quantum theory as well, assuming that the quantum fields are defined over spacetime, you put them together and they tell you the fundamental assumptions that we used to build. These theories aren't the final word. That is what's so beautiful about science. They say, let's assume for sake of argument that spacetime is fundamental. Then we will prove that spacetime is not fundamental and, and that it falls apart at exactly 10 to the minus 33, or roughly 10 to the minus 33 centimeters, 10 to the minus 43 seconds. That's the way wonderful science works. It says we always start with assumptions. Like let's assume, Einstein said, let me assume that the speed of light is the same in all inertial frames and there's no special inertial frame. And then we get the structure of space time coming up. So we start with the set of assumptions, but we know that we don't have a theory of everything because we started with assumptions and we're not explaining our assumptions. So every scientific theory starts with a miracle or some miracles. We call them our assumptions, but they're the miracles of the theory. And what we say in science is, if you grant me these miracles, then I'll explain all this other wonderful stuff. And it works. All the technology that we're using right now to talk with each other via the Internet and so forth, wouldn't hear, wouldn't be here without quantum theory and Einstein's theorists, they're beautiful theories, they work. But what's really powerful about them is they tell us where they stop. They say our fundamental assumptions of space and time that we built the whole theory on, those very assumptions aren't true and they fall apart at 10 to the -33 centimeters. That's not self refutation, that is beautiful. Science telling us what we knew had to be the case that your assumptions aren't the final word.

Jonathan Cohen (39:28)

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Jonathan Cohen (42:00)

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Dr. Donald Hoffman (47:14)

Right, right. And I don't think we have to worry about AIs being conscious in that, in that kind of sense that, as I said earlier with the simulation theory, I don't think that computational systems can de novo give rise to consciousness. This is just not right now. They can give rise to behaviors that we enjoy that are helpful and intelligent in certain ways. That's perfectly fine. But creating, I'll put it this way. There is no scientific theory to date at all that can say for any specific conscious experience, like the taste of mint or the smell of chocolate or something, that what specific computational procedure must give rise to that experience? So if Anybody says that AIs can be conscious, just ask them the very, very simple question, okay? We have trillions of conscious experiences. It should be like shooting fish in a barrel. Pick one and give me your theory. Tell me exactly how a computer or some physical system could give rise to that conscious experience. This is. Now I'm interested in science, not handwave. If you think that's true, give me a mathematically precise account of one conscious experience and I will tell you. I know the field. I know the players. They're my friends and colleagues. They're brilliant. And they can't give you a single one. Not because they're dumb. It's because it can't be done. It's just simply the case that conscious experiences do not arise out of physical processes. And so that's the simple question to ask anybody. You think conscious experiences arise from physical systems like computers? Give me one theory that science has done, like the taste of mint or the smell of garlic. Give me one. Until you have one on the board, there's nothing to take. There's literally nothing to talk about. You have no theory, so there's no science. Now we have court, and they'll say, well, no, da, da, da. We've done all these neural correlates of consciousness. I mean, you're, you're a cognitive neuroscientist. Don't you know about all the. Absolutely. I've. I've been involved in, in these neural correlate studies myself, FMRI and EEG and so forth.