Ky Dickens on Universal Consciousness, Mediums, Remote Viewing & What Science Still Can't Explain. Inside The Telepathy Tapes S2

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mayim Bialik's Breakdown

Episode: Ky Dickens on Universal Consciousness, Mediums, Remote Viewing & What Science Still Can't Explain (Inside The Telepathy Tapes S2)
Date: October 24, 2025
Host: Mayim Bialik
Guest: Ky Dickens (Host, The Telepathy Tapes), with Jonathan Cohen (co-host)

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Overview

This episode explores the fundamental nature of consciousness beyond the materialist worldview. With guest Ky Dickens, creator of the influential "The Telepathy Tapes" podcast, Mayim and Jonathan discuss the mounting anecdotal and increasingly scientific evidence for phenomena like telepathy, mediumship, remote viewing, and consciousness beyond physical life—including among non-speaking individuals and those with neurological conditions. They delve into cultural, historical, scientific, and personal experiences that challenge the materialist paradigm, examining both skepticism and open-minded inquiry.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Telepathy Tapes and the State of Consciousness Science

• Telepathy Tapes Success and Controversy

  • Ky Dickens reflects on the unexpected controversy and skepticism arising from the success of the first season and its focus on extraordinary communication abilities among non-speakers.
  • Season one opened the conversation around consciousness existing independently of the physical body, particularly among neurodiverse individuals.
  • Dickens hopes Season 2 will demonstrate "consciousness is fundamental" and survives physical death, engaging with us whether or not we have bodies. (07:14, 11:51)

• Challenging Materialism

  • Ky: "Science and institutions have hand waved away the inconvenience of a non physical world. This isn't about religion or spirituality. It's just about the fact that we're connected to something bigger." (00:12)

  • Mayim notes that skepticism often arises from materialist presumptions, with a prevailing belief that anything beyond the physical is “silly” or “unscientific,” rather than just as scientific a possibility as materialist models.

2. Defining Consciousness: Fundamental, Universal, and Creative

• Consciousness as Baseline Reality

  • Ky: "Consciousness is fundamental. The most basic part of our universe. It came before all physical things. Consciousness survives the physical body and is engaging with us all the time, whether we have a body or not." (07:14, reiterated from introduction)

• Individual and Collective Aspects

  • Discussion about Donald Hoffman and Thomas Campbell’s models: consciousness as both individual and collective (like "droplets in an ocean"), each with agency but contributing to a larger "consciousness system". (27:45–28:36)
    • Jonathan: "Each droplet has an intention and agency, but they're operating as a collective." (28:17)

• Creation as an Aspect of Consciousness

  • Ky points out that the universe is always creating and destroying, that humans receive ideas from consciousness itself, and if you don’t "grab an idea," it moves on.
    • “If I don’t grab an idea, it will go on to someone else. An idea will come, but if you aren’t ready for it or giving it the time, it will leave you.” (09:00)

3. Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and Mediumship

• NDEs: Consistent Cross-Cultural Reports

  • Ky outlines Season 2's exploration of NDEs over 5,000 years and across cultures, noting the patterns: leaving the body, 360-degree vision, life reviews, meeting guides, and being told to return.
    • Notable veridical (verifiable) perception accounts, like blind individuals describing previously unseen events and details while “out of body.” (33:46)
    • Mayim: “The only way to explain that is... existing in whatever plane of consciousness allows you to have access to all of the information.” (34:48)

• Mediums, Non-Speakers, and Communication With the Dead

  • Example: an 11-year-old non-speaker receives accurate, specific information from a deceased acquaintance, relaying messages that are then verified. (15:03–15:40)

    • Ky: “She starts typing, says, I have a message for Hunter Chastain... it was from his mother who had passed... she calls this man, and he's like, yeah, my mom passed and her thing was the derby. And I just recently started teaching my daughter to ride horses.” (15:03)

  • Discussion of how these experiences break down conventional boundaries between life and death, and the skepticism and stigma around mediumship—especially for women and children. (21:00)

4. Expanded Communication: Plants, Animals, and “Non-Speaking” Humans

• Animal and Plant Telepathy

  • Dickens shares accounts of non-speaking children and adults (with apraxia, dementia, brain injury, etc.) manifesting telepathic abilities—communicating with animals and even with plants.
    • Example: An individual diagnosed through “telepathic” communication with plants, offering verified herbal remedies, often rooted in traditional wisdom. (41:44–43:44)
    • Ky: “Plants communicate. It's more like a smoke around you... but she's like, I'll know who lit the fire, like, where the message is coming from, what plant... they're so loving. They're so unconditionally caring for us.” (43:44)

• Non-Speakers, Apraxia, and Survival Communication

  • Ky shares a mother’s description that her non-speaking son’s telepathic skills emerged “to survive”—as his only means of social connection. (50:03)
  • The phenomenon isn’t restricted to autism but spans other neurological conditions (Rett, DDX3X, Down syndrome, dementia, etc.).

• Mechanisms: Tuning and “Turning On” Abilities

  • Mayim and Jonathan liken psychic/telepathic skill to tuning into specific radio frequencies—when you ‘tune’ to a channel, you open up to new forms of connection. (25:17–25:49)

5. Science, Skepticism, and Methodology

• Materialist Critique and Scientific Reaction

  • Discussion about the backlash—articles, skeptical “hit pieces,” and personal attacks aimed at Ky and her colleagues. Ky notes the irony of being considered “bonkers” for simply documenting what she observes and reports. (61:33–64:05)
    • Ky: “If you believe that, you’re not gullible or silly or... ill-informed. You can be extraordinarily smart, intelligent and see that there’s a non-physical. And that might be the more scientific thing to do than to just ignore it altogether.” (29:14)

• Evolving the Scientific Approach

  • Ky and Mayim emphasize that true science is about remaining open and investigating any replicable anomaly, even if it disrupts current models.
    • Mayim: “If there’s one person... experiencing this, that’s significant for us as a human species. And it deserves attention, respect, and further research. That’s what it means to be a scientist.” (61:10)

• Testing Telepathy and Mediumship

  • Discussion of rigorous experimental designs in Season 2 (tests with non-speakers, independent scientists, cross-state experiments).
    • Noteworthy experiment: a non-speaking boy described and correctly spelled a word visible only to a scientist several states away on Zoom—“the most impossible telepathy test to do. And it was done.” (64:46–65:33)
  • Gansfeld studies and statistical significance in psi research; the challenge is not lack of data, but the inability of current science to explain the mechanisms. (69:52–71:33)

6. Remote Viewing and Psi Abilities

• Remote Viewing’s Accessibility

  • Ky describes plans for a whole remote viewing season, noting it's a psi ability governments invested in and that children seem able to learn quickly.
    • “Governments have poured a lot of money into it... It happens with psychedelics, it happens with non speakers, with meditation. That, to me, is like—that’s a slam dunk.” (83:45–86:03)

• Altered States: Psychedelics, Lucid Dreaming, Energy Healing

  • Ky shares personal experiences with mushrooms; despite high doses, she was "not allowed to experience" altered states—suggests a kind of psychic "bubble" preserving her objectivity as a documentarian. (88:42–94:07)
    • Mayim theorizes that, for the sake of the work, she is being “protected” from losing objectivity.

7. The Human Side: Meaning, Belief, and Re-enchantment

• Re-enchantment: Finding Connection Beyond Materialism

  • Jonathan: “As societies lose... meaning and purpose and sense that they’re connected to something greater, then we’re subject to all the ills of modern society: addiction, depression, loneliness...” (30:28)
  • The group reflects on the healing, community, and mental health implications of recognizing a larger consciousness.

• Bridging the Binary

  • Ky notes the binary between “woo” and “materialist” is false and advocates for a large “middle” of rigorous, open-minded inquiry—where most people truly are. (76:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Scientific Open-mindedness

  • Ky Dickens (00:12): “You can be extraordinarily smart, intelligent and see that there’s a non-physical. And that might be the more scientific thing to do than to just ignore it altogether.”

• On Creation and Ideas

  • Ky Dickens (09:00): “If I don’t grab an idea, it will go on to someone else. And sometimes an idea will come, but if you aren’t ready for it or giving it the time, it will leave you. If you come back to it, it might just be like a dead, limp part of itself.”

• On Mediums and Non-Speakers

  • Ky Dickens (15:16): "[Amelia] starts typing: I have a message for Hunter Chastain... [from] his mother who had passed. ... ‘The derby was her thing’ ... ‘I just started teaching my daughter to ride horses.’"
  • Mayim Bialik (14:32): “No, that freaks me out.”

• On Near Death Experiences

  • Mayim Bialik (33:09): “It's an isolated pie of information... not a generic piece... Like, ‘I saw that you had a tomato stain on your tie and you were in the cafeteria and you were hiding the tie under your lab coat.’”

• On Plant Telepathy

  • Ky Dickens (43:44): “Plants communicate. It’s more like a smoke around you. It’s so soft and so gentle... they’re so loving...they really work together... They move to give each other sun. They don't try to take the sun away like we do.”

• On Testifying to Mystery

  • Mayim Bialik (94:07): “It may not be everyone, but if there's one person, right, that is experiencing this, that's significant for us as a human species. And it deserves attention, respect, and further research."

• On Objectivity and Experience

  • Mayim Bialik (92:57): "If you dip into belief, it can adulterate the research you're doing...a part of you knows how important it is to preserve the sanctity of objectivity. It’s not your path now. One day it may be, but right now..."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|----------------| | 00:00–02:18 | Introduction, Telepathy & consciousness outside the body | | 07:14 | Ky on goals for Season 2: consciousness as fundamental| | 11:51 | Non-speakers, consciousness after death; telepathy after passing| | 14:32–15:40 | Mediumship example—specific messages from non-speaker child| | 25:15–25:49 | Tuning into consciousness—analogy of “tuning the knob”| | 27:45–28:36 | Consciousness: Collective vs. individuated, Hoffman/Campbell models| | 33:46–34:31 | Blind person NDE—a case of veridical perception| | 41:44–43:44 | Plant telepathy—diagnosis and communication| | 50:03 | Non-speaker uses telepathy “to survive”—communication as necessity| | 64:46–65:33 | Scientific telepathy tests, multi-state, independent verification| | 69:52–71:33 | Gansfeld studies and statistical analysis of psi phenomena| | 83:45–86:03 | Remote viewing: training, government research, overlap with other states| | 88:42–94:07 | Ky’s personal experience with psychedelics—being “blocked” from altered states| | 76:02–77:56 | Bridging the “woo”/materialist binary; the comfort found in validation|

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Tone and Style Highlights

• The conversation is intellectual, personal, humorous, and wonder-filled, with Mayim and Jonathan adding warmth and personal anecdotes.
• Ky Dickens balances skepticism with curiosity and open-mindedness, sharing both rigorous scientific approaches and the significance of lived experience.
• The episode encourages listeners to embrace uncertainty, awe, and thoughtful exploration over dogmatism—whether scientific or spiritual.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive, compassionate examination of consciousness that transcends traditional scientific boundaries. It challenges binary thinking, highlights the importance of inclusive and rigorous inquiry, and reaffirms the value—personal, clinical, and philosophical—of exploring phenomena at the edges of our current understanding. Ky Dickens and "The Telepathy Tapes" continue to open minds, generate important research, and foster a sense of wonder and hope about the nature of consciousness and our place in the universe.

Transcript

[Mayim Bialik]

There is a place where consciousness exists outside of our bodies that some people have an apparent ability to access. What if it's not that hard to get there?

[Kai Dickens]

Science and institutions have hand waved away the inconvenience of a non physical world. And this isn't about religion or spirituality. It's just about the fact that we're connected to something bigger. And if you believe that you're not gullible or silly or ill informed, you can be extraordinarily smart, intelligent and see that there's a non physical. And that might be the more scientific thing to do than to just ignore it altogether.

[Mayim Bialik]

The Telepathy Tapes was the number one podcast in the world, launching telepathy and psi phenomena into public conversation. The Telepathy Tapes host Kai Dickens joins us to uncover the controversy surrounding season one and discuss how season two will convince even the most skeptical scientists that there's more to reality and consciousness than we've ever fathomed.

[Kai Dickens]

We start hearing from a lot of nurses and doctors and caregivers who are saying, hey, this Telepathy is not just with non speakers. It's with people with Alzheimer's or strokes or comas or dementia. In particular, there's something to do with not being as tethered to your physical form. We try to go find are there legit mediums? Can we scientifically prove it? Vet them. Look at them from every angle.

[Mayim Bialik]

Tell us what you are hoping season two of the Telepathy Tapes can achieve.

[Kai Dickens]

I hope season two will prove that consciousness is fundamental. It is the most basic part of our universe. It became before all physical things. Consciousness survives the physical body and is engaging with us all the time, whether we have a body or not.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Have you opened up any of your own telepathic or intuitive abilities? All right, remember, the machine knows if you're lying.

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

All online.

[Kai Dickens]

False.

[Jonathan Cohen]

True. Actually, you can sell your car in minutes.

[Kai Dickens]

False. That's gotta be true again.

[Mayim Bialik]

Carvana will pick up your car from your door or you can drop it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Off at one of their car vending machines.

[Kai Dickens]

Sounds too good to be true.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So true finally caught on.

[Mayim Bialik]

Nice job.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Honesty isn't just their policy, it's their entire model. Sell your car today too, Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. My Mbialx breakdown is supported by Mint Mobile.

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

I think the hardest part of the process was the time you spent waiting on hold to break up with your old provider ready to say yes to saying no. Make the [e-mail] break that's mint mobile.com/break upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees. Extra cement Mobile for details Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

[Mayim Bialik]

And welcome to our breakdown.

[Jonathan Cohen]

This is an exclusive look at season two of the Telepathy Tapes and some of the biggest topics that are going to be covered that align to many of the conversations that we have been having on this podcast for the last year.

[Mayim Bialik]

If you haven't heard of the Telepathy Tapes, you can probably hear about it in about a dozen episodes where we reference conversations about what is possible to access outside of what we can see, touch, smell and experience. The Telepathy Tapes was created by Kai Dickens who we have in person here here today to talk about some of the biggest lessons from season one of the Telepathy tapes and what we can expect in season two, which is all about consciousness. What are the different ways that people can step outside of their bodies, be it in death, from accidents, from Alzheimer's disease. And what can we learn about the places that you can go if you do not believe that your body is all that is you?

[Jonathan Cohen]

There are some phenomenal and really unbelievable stories of people who have information and receive information that they could not possibly otherwise know.

[Mayim Bialik]

What's really important about this conversation that we have with Kai Dickens is that she doesn't presume to be able to explain everything that she has witnessed, everything that she has cataloged or, or everything that we're going to see in the documentary that will be released next year or in season two. But we have a fantastic time talking with her about the limitations of materialism and the ways to best communicate with a larger audience. Things like remote viewing, what happens when the brain starts shutting down and new abilities are acquired. We cover everything that's coming in season two, as well as some pretty out there things that even she cannot yet explain.

[Jonathan Cohen]

We discussed two different types of telepathy, which is fascinating. And also she describes the scientific experiments with rigorous scientists that are trying to prove to people that this is much more than a one off phenomenon.

[Mayim Bialik]

Also, can plants communicate with us? Kai is going to tell us a very personal experience that points towards yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

As well as explaining that psi ability and remote viewing, specifically children, can learn it very quickly. Take a second and subscribe anywhere you're listening or watching. We are so grateful to be doing these episodes and having these conversations and subscribing is the easiest way to help support the show. We really cannot thank you enough.

[Mayim Bialik]

We cannot wait to share with you someone we've been wanting to have on since we first got turned onto the telepathy tapes. Um, she's here in person with us. Kai Dickens, welcome to the Breakdown. Break it down. I have to say it's very, very strange to have you in person because I know your voice very well. It's like it lives inside my head. I had never listened to a full podcast all the way through until I listened to the telepathy tapes. So I became intimately acquainted with your voice. And anyway, I am living my own episode of being inside of the telepathy tapes with your voice.

[Kai Dickens]

I love that.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's a very exciting week as season two just dropped. Start us off by telling us what you are hoping season two of the telepathy tapes can achieve.

[Kai Dickens]

After listening to season one, I hope most people left feeling a little uncertain about consciousness and the materialistic paradigm in which we live. And hopefully many people realize that there might be more going on like telepathy or just a deeper level of consciousness or communication that we're aware of in our physical bodies. And so if you left season one feeling pretty convinced that telepathy is happening for some people, if not all of us, on a very subtle, in a subtle way, I hope season two will prove that consciousness is fundamental. It is the most basic part of our universe. It became before all physical Things. And that consciousness survives the physical body and is engaging with us all the time, whether we have a body or not. So I think that will be the takeaway from season two. So.

[Mayim Bialik]

So those are some pretty. Those are very big goals of consciousness, right? So the first being consciousness is fundamental. The second, that when the body dies, the vessel, as it were, there is a place where consciousness exists, and that in different ways, we're always able to tap into that no matter what. Right?

[Kai Dickens]

Yes. Yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And that consciousness is interacting with us all the time.

[Kai Dickens]

All the time.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Needs a lot of unpacking, because it goes. Just brings up a lot of questions, like, is the universe intelligent and has a plan or not or us?

[Kai Dickens]

Yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

How is it interacting with us?

[Kai Dickens]

And I think our episode three answers that question solved.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Case closed.

[Kai Dickens]

I mean, I hope so. Conversations over, you know, because I think what you have to look at is what the universe. What do we know about the universe is always creating. It's creating and the destroying and creating again, like, that is baseline, right? It's all creation. Like, from, like, the stars to the earth to all of us to crystals. Like, everything's been created. And so it makes sense if consciousness likes to create that it's going to create through us, and somehow us. Us humans can hear it. I mean, I don't know if bats and, like, weasels can. Can pick up a song or a story, but we certainly can. And what does that mean? And also the fact that we will, with our very precious time on Earth, create thousands of different types of lamps or homes or, you know, as Liz Gilbert says, tons of chairs. Like, why you just need one chair. And so that brings up a lot, I think. And we know, you know, in our episode three, we talked to not just creators, but, like, thinkers and mathematicians and people who will say, like, if I don't grab an idea, it will go on to someone else. And sometimes an idea will come, but if you aren't, you know, ready for it or giving it the time, it will leave you. And if you come back to it, it might just be like a dead, limp part of itself. You can push it and prod it, and it won't come back. So what does that mean? It seems like consciousness has a will that it wants to make manifest through us. So, I mean, we explore all of this in season two, I should say.

[Mayim Bialik]

My secret reason for having you here is I want to pitch a podcast where I just talk about every episode of the Telepathy Tapes with you, and we get to talk about everyone in detail, and we're not going to do that because we've done that with at least a dozen other episodes where we've had guests on and we've poked and prodded and what does this episode mean? You know, we're fascinated with not just the telepathy tapes, but we're fascinated with the fascination about this aspect of our consciousness. And our consciousness.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Ability to communicate. To communicate in other realms. When people would say to me, oh, I listened to the first episode, oh, I don't know if I'm into it. And I just kept saying, keep going, keep going. Whatever you think is about to happen, keep going. And by the time you get to the end, what is opened up is what sounds like an opening to season two, which is with all of these incredible examples and all of the ups and downs that you can go through with each of these individual journeys. The sort of thesis that comes out of season one is there is a place, right? There is a place, a metaphysical place, a mythical place. We don't really know. We don't know. But there is a place where consciousness exists outside of our bodies that some people have an apparent ability to access. And what if it's not that hard to get there? Right, Right. So that for me is sort of like where we then head into season two. Tell us what else season two is gonna cover in the field of consciousness.

[Kai Dickens]

So where we left season one, I mean, it kind of leaves with someone passing away and other non speaking individuals with apraxia, who we talk about in season one, if you haven't listened to it, who are able to communicate telepathically from a long distance, are able to telepathically communicate with this young man who passed away.

[Mayim Bialik]

And they also know where he is and what he looks like and when he dies. That, I mean, like someone explain it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That's the striking moment where these children, without being told there's no possible way that that information could have gotten to them all seem to know that a friend of theirs passes.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, that kind of brought up some questions around consciousness surviving death and who else can access. Access it and what is it like, where are we going? Because it doesn't seem to be that out of reach for some of the non speakers that we profile in the first season. So our first episode looks at near death experiences going back not just recently like 5,000 years in ancient, you know, in ancient civilizations from China to Sumere to, you know, Mesopotamia, and how many of our afterlife beliefs that popped up all over the world and look very similar, similar weren't just Ideas, they were reports from people who'd been there and come back. And so we kind of look at that, and if we can understand, like, what people are thinking or saying, where we're going, and this has been, you know, throughout Native America, like, all over the world, same concept of where we're going, then from there we can look at, okay, well, if we are going somewhere, it seems that way. Then can you communicate from that divide? And then we look into mediumship and try to unpack it scientifically, but also compare. If mediumship is real and someone's connecting with spirits, obviously the means of doing that would be telepathy. And we bring in a non speaker in episode two who can both communicate from a distance with the living as well as the dead.

[Mayim Bialik]

Can you explain. Explain what that's like just for us to understand someone who is distinguishing between. This is a person who's alive, and I'm able to tap into their brain, their consciousness, their thoughts, versus, oh, this is a person who is not here anymore. And I have information that only you and they would know.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Well, it's really interesting. And she was such. She's a joy to talk to. And she's young. She's 11, you know, so she's. But, you know, the mediumship really started happening, I think, for her big time after season one came out and her mom started saying she's being visited all the time. But these are messages from people we barely know. Or, like, we'll be on an airplane and she'll say, you need to tell this person that.

[Mayim Bialik]

No, that freaks me out.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Any examples of things that she got on airplanes that, like, people needed to know? Like, it's not like, hey, you should tie your shoe.

[Kai Dickens]

No, it's very specific.

[Mayim Bialik]

In season one, the boy who knew the guy was writing the book.

[Kai Dickens]

Josiah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Josiah. That one. I was like, I can try and explain an anecdot. Stoat my way out of everything. When I got to that episode, I was. I'm stumped. So this sounds similar.

[Kai Dickens]

Similar.

[Mayim Bialik]

There's information that is accurate and specific that can be communicated.

[Kai Dickens]

We have this. This example in that episode, episode two, where she starts typing, says, I have a message for Hunter Chastain, a very specific name. And the mom is like, I met this guy once at, like, a conference.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And.

[Kai Dickens]

And it was about. It was from his mother who had passed. And, you know, the. The. The non speaker. It's. The mom's name is Maura. She didn't know that this mom passed. And then Amelia starts typing, like, something about horses and the derby and all this stuff. And she's like, what the heck? So she calls this man Hunter Chastain.

[Mayim Bialik]

No.

[Kai Dickens]

And Hunter's like, yeah, my mom passed and her thing was the derby. And I just recently started teaching my daughter to ride horses.

[Mayim Bialik]

No.

[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

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[Mayim Bialik]

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I have noticed a huge difference in me also. It is so interesting that like the mental clarity I have later in the day when I'm drinking Mud Water versus coffee is really, really noticeable.

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Kai Dickens]

Their sweatshirts and sweatpants are super cozy.

[Mayim Bialik]

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[Kai Dickens]

What makes you feel scared about it?

[Mayim Bialik]

I just when, when things like that are articulated, I don't have a materialist framework.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

To wrap my head around it. Right. So what it leaves open is like every possibility of things that we're told cannot be real.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

And it's like this huge what if? And he's just like, no, that's what I predicted. Like he's Mr. Energy. Like I knew it. Like when we started listening to lepos tapes, he's like, oh yeah, totally.

[Jonathan Cohen]

What I think happens to you is that you feel for a moment because you're. You think so much.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And you just. Brain is constantly humming.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And for a moment when you're speaking, you're sharing that example. What happens in my opinion is that she feels just how thin the veil is to the other side. And that the division between living dead, what's said, what isn't said, is so paper thin that with the right tool, with the right sensing, it's just there. And then also it may be like, if that is true, well, it starts to break down her worldview. But then also she's like, are they hearing all of my thoughts? Because there's a lot of thoughts in there.

[Mayim Bialik]

They're mostly about you.

[Kai Dickens]

That's the trickiest topic, actually, that we're tackle this season. Because mediumship comes with all sorts of charge around it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

A lot of baggage.

[Kai Dickens]

A lot of baggage, right? And if like, like a sanctioned holy man can talk to the dad, like, that's really okay, you know, then you're, you know, holy. But if it's your woman doing it, you're a witch.

[Jonathan Cohen]

He was like, the derby was her thing. What, what else was in that message?

[Kai Dickens]

That's one of the things we look into. I mean, mediumship covers a lot of baggage. I mean, and there have been like smoky fake seances and, you know, apparitions, and it's like been the most exploitive crooked feels, you know, if you will. And in that episode, we try to go find are there legit mediums? Can we scientifically prove it? Vet them, look at them from every angle. And then like, and then we do a deep dive on one of those mediums. And then she meets this little girl, Amelia. Because what happens with Amelia is she's being overcome by not just non speakers who want help because their parents haven't taught them to spell and they're locked in, locked in their body, but also spirits. And so we ask her, like, is there a difference? Like, what's. How does a spirit sound versus a non speaker? And she says non speakers are really loud and persistent and like they're, you know, probably sound more like us. They're living and that the spirits feel much more subtle and quiet, but they're like almost like universally happy. It's interesting, right? But she just wanted to be left alone and didn't know how to. To handle that. And then her mom was like, once people realized that she could hear, it's like the influx of both non speakers and spirits were coming through. But from the guys of mediumship being an exploitive field, we kind of look at that because what does this 11 year old have to gain? Nothing.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That's the best part of it. Coming through the vessel of an 11 year old. It's not monetized. And this is kind of Where I was going with, what did the message offer the person? Because it's like she is being overwhelmed.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And she doesn't know what to do with it, I would imagine. And I've heard about this before where people who have an intuition or an ability to hear other realms.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Like maybe there's a lack of people in the call center. So if one of them is in the call center who shows proficiency, they get overwhelmed. And then I'm like, well, are the messages she's able to share with people really impactful? And if. And if she's not monetizing it, then that sort of gives a little, little bit more objectivity.

[Kai Dickens]

Right. She's a very inconvenient thing for people. Right. Because you can't just say, oh, she's trying to make money off of this or do this or do this. It's like she just wants to help people. And I forgot how she said it, but we have this line in the episode of her being like, when people hear this, they know they can become happy that their loved one isn't gone. Like they're. They're right there. And that's hard to wrap our head around. But I think you just alluded to this because there is something about, like, once something turns on. And this is something I discovered in this. I didn't know about this until we started, like, really going into full hog. All things different in season two was that, like, it does seem if you turn on some one of these gifts, others come on. Once the telepathy tapes came out, we started hearing from a lot of nurses and doctors and caregivers who were saying, hey, this telepathy is not just with non speakers. It's with people with Alzheimer's or strokes or in hospitals or in comas or dementia in particular. And it was like a lot of nurses and doctors saying, this is true for us too.

[Mayim Bialik]

Nurses and doctors are reporting that patients who are nonverbal or have dementia are finding a way to communicate with them without words.

[Kai Dickens]

Exactly. But these aren't non speakers with apraxia or autism. These are non speakers because of a stroke or dementia. And so there was a man. And we did a talk Tracks episode on this, which was like where we unpacked season one, and he, his wife had early onset dementia. She started talking to him and telling him how to help her go to the bathroom quicker, go in the car. I mean, just the most fundamental thing. So it doesn't take 35 minutes, it takes four. And it would work. So he's like, I Can hear you. I can hear you. But once that turned on for him, he said all of a sudden like kind of some of that spirit stuff turned on too. And he's like, I don't know how it happened, but my wife suddenly was like, I'm gonna do this out of necessity because you need to help me.

[Mayim Bialik]

It opened a portal.

[Kai Dickens]

Open something else. Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Which you know, from a, from a like neuroanatomy perspective. Right. What we're saying is if you are tapping into something because of. I mean, I'm just going to throw out an idea because of a wavelength that you're able to drop into. Right. You're able to drop into some theta state or you're accessing something that in that frequency. Right. It's like you're tuning the knob of the universe.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

To be what you now are open to hearing that other people, if they are not tuned to that frequency, they just don't have access to it.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Yes. And once you learn to tune where you previously were not tuned, Right. Like your antennae were sort of this broad scope where you hadn't actually gone into a specific channel, then you can tune to other channels more easily. So the mechanism is actually adjusted and becomes more sensitive. Let's just unpack here for a minute. The amount that we just disgust. Because what.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's not a big deal to be like, oh, consciousness exists and people in comas can communicate. You just gotta tune it.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

There's a lot of our episodes where I feel like we talk about things in other episodes and then like we have a hard time wrapping them back together. So for example, we talk about people who have this very advanced dementia having moments of lucidity near the end. Actually, Martha Jo, it was with a.

[Mayim Bialik]

Death doula and she said sometimes people who are completely non verbal for like.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Months, years even come back and have this. And so you're like, the neuroanatomy has been damaged and yet for a moment they're totally coherent and making their goodbyes before passing. And in your example, what we're suggesting is that the person and all of their knowing functioning capability exists outside of the physical form. And when the mechanism and structure of the physical form are no longer able to provide that communication.

[Mayim Bialik]

But it's twofold because Kai's taking it one level deeper. It's not just that it exists, it's that it has intention.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

It wants to be heard. Right. It wants to reach out and make connection. Right. That's what you can see here.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But in that version it is the General consciousness or the individual's consciousness or the reflection of the larger consciousness that is the individual.

[Mayim Bialik]

Donald Hoffman who has a mathematical model for this, what he said is there are individual consciousnesses that collectively can exist but also have an individual will, as it were.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

And he shows this mathematically with phenomenal matrix.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It gets very complicated very quickly. To anyone who's not a mathematician, it's.

[Mayim Bialik]

Very, very nerd level math. But the notion would be that there is a collective consciousness, but that they.

[Kai Dickens]

Are individuated as well. So it's like droplets in an ocean.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right?

[Kai Dickens]

Kind of. Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

I mean, I mean, yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That each droplet has an intention and agency, but also that they're operating as a collective.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Gosh, what would be a better metaphor for that?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Thomas Campbell describes it as there is your consciousness, there is someone else's consciousness and then there's the larger consciousness system. All those nodes are a part of the. Each of those nodes are a part of the larger.

[Kai Dickens]

Like we're all hands extending from it, which. Right. To like learn more. And the more opportunities and experiences we have, the more we can like grow and know in.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I forget also I think maybe in Donald Hoffman conversation where it just occurred to me, I'm like if we are perceiving and participating in consciousness and we're sort of go back to the radio, we're tuning that frequency, what we tune is then fed back into the larger system of consciousness wanting to know itself through us.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

How do you, you know as the person who's holding all of this. Yeah. What do we do with that? How do we fit this into a larger picture?

[Kai Dickens]

It's really tricky because I think there's a lot here. One is that I think our structures of science and institutions have sort of really kind of like taken a large leap or like hand waved away like the inconvenience of a non physical world. And it's really, I think caused us to feel a lot of loss and confusion. And this isn't about religion or spirituality or anything like that. It's just about the fact that we're connected to something bigger. And if you believe that you're not gullible or silly or stupid or misguided or ill informed or all these things that you know, I mean, I know I used to be like I can't believe in God because then, you know, I mean it's like that's not true, I don't think. And you can be extraordinarily smart, intelligent and clear minded and, and see that there's a Non physical world. And that might be the more scientific thing to do than to just ignore it altogether, you know? So I think that's like a big pivot we all have to make. And I think if we can start making that together, we're gonna have a lot more peace in our life and maybe in our society too. I mean, I don't want to sound like, overly glossy, but, like, if you realize that you're connected to more, it's hard. It's harder to just like, not give it to flying shits about other people.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I totally agree. And that connects to a conversation we had recently about the need for re. Enchantment. Because as societies lose their sense of meaning and purpose and sense that they're connected to something greater, then we're subject to all the ills of modern day society of addiction, of depression, of loneliness, of feeling like it's me versus you and that there's. And that's a bottomless pit of despair and distraction.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. I love that word. Re Enchantment.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Someone said, like, I'd rather the story be that there is more. Right. The materialists are so staunch in their objection to anything other than the physical form.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That they'll dismiss. And what Jeffrey Kripal says is that they'll just remove everything they can't explain from the table and tell you you're silly for even thinking about it or.

[Kai Dickens]

Try to harm the messenger. Like, this person can't be trusted and must. There's something wrong with them. And I know, like, Rupert Sheldrake has been like, just look at the data. Stop talking about me. Look at the data. I'll debate you any day. You know, I wonder if you can.

[Mayim Bialik]

Talk to us a little bit about near death experiences. You know, for us, this has been a realm that is so significant in terms of opening up a legitimate conversation.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right. Meaning it's fantastic to hear the amazing things that people experience.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

And what does it mean? You know, what are the.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

What are the messages that people who cross over. Right. Bringing back. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about that as well as people who claim to have access. Right. I mean, it's a kind of near death experience to speak to people who have crossed over and bring that back as well. What have you learned and what can season two bring us in terms of insight about near death experiences?

[Kai Dickens]

Well, I love that that was your gateway, like, entry into, like the unexplained. Because we kind of thought, okay, people are coming into season two. What is going to be the only palatable gateway in. And it was like near death experiences, because they become kind of like irrefutable in some cases because so many people have had them where there's something called veridical perception. You know what that is? Okay. But for your listeners who don't like, it's something you can verify during an nde, a near death experience. So, like, you might be out of your body and see something in the hospital and report like. Like one is really graphic, like a color bag that they were putting into, like, severed. I mean, that was. Okay, like, we can do another example, like your grandpa getting peanuts out of the thing while they're waiting for you, like in surgery and stuff like that. And. And you know that they never eat peanuts. They don't even like candy. But then this is an example we heard. But then, you know, we came back and it's like, sure enough, he was having peanuts or.

[Mayim Bialik]

So it's an isolated pie of information that is occurring away from the physical periphery of someone's vessel. That also is not a generic piece of information. Meaning? Meaning, like, oh, to say, oh, I know you were in the waiting room wondering how surgery was going. That's very generic. That probably, God forbid, happens every time someone's in surgery. But to say, I saw, as Bruce Grayson talked about, I saw that you had a tomato stain on your tie and you were in the cafeteria and when you were.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And you were hiding the tie under your lab coat.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right? Yes, those are pieces. Okay. So that's the kind of verifiable and.

[Kai Dickens]

Like, one of the examples that we talk about in episode one that I find so fascinating was a woman who was blind and had a near death experience. And she explained what she couldn't see when she came back, her ring, the color of her hair, what was going on around her. I mean, she had a complete vivid description of it, never having had sight before.

[Mayim Bialik]

Jeffrey Long talks about this also.

[Jonathan Cohen]

He has 360 sites.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, no. And people who had never had vision describing things that they oftentimes don't even have words for because they've never seen them. Like, what is that? Right?

[Kai Dickens]

Well. And to your point, when she came back and she said, it's so cool, though, that you can see in front of you and behind you and up. And he's like, no, you can't. You can only see forward.

[Mayim Bialik]

She thought, everybody can. Oh my God.

[Kai Dickens]

And she's like, what do you mean you can only see forward? That's not true. I could see everywhere. And it was so cool. And he's like, no, no, no. Like, that's not a thing. Like, we don't see everywhere and then. But that he was like, what was so fascinating about that piece of information is that that's how a lot of near death experiencers talk about their vision.

[Mayim Bialik]

And the only way to explain that is that there are not two eyeballs that are looking forward and have, you know, this kind of view. That's roughly, I don't know how many degrees, I can't remember what it is. But the notion that seeing is being right, that existing in whatever plane of consciousness allows you the ability to have access to all of the information, which is not only visual, it's not only auditory. There's something spiritual.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

There's something that you're seeing and experiencing that can only be described as existing in some divine way.

[Kai Dickens]

Right. Well. And a lot of these people will talk about being able to move at the speed of thought. Like, how cool is that?

[Mayim Bialik]

And that answers come as quickly as you ask them. Like, time is. Time is irrelevant.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. And one of the things that was fascinating is like, we looked back, way back into like, ancient accounts, and it was like, what was the best way to verify near death experience 2000 years ago? And it would be someone who had this near death experience, came back and was like, oh, you know, Frank, whoever's dead. And that's probably not named from back then, but, you know, whatever. And then, you know, it would take two weeks upon months to often get news of something like that. And then like, of course, like two weeks later, this, they'd find out, yes, this person had died like four weeks before and there's no way they would have known. So verifying, like, who else was in, you know, this other place, Right?

[Mayim Bialik]

I mean, Jesus. The most famous example of someone, I mean, but. But when you think about the language that is used to describe these things, that was about 2,000 years ago, right?

[Kai Dickens]

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[Kai Dickens]

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[Kai Dickens]

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[Jonathan Cohen]

Cross cultural references with a ton of similarity. What did you discover in that research about ancient near death experiences?

[Kai Dickens]

A lot of religious beliefs that started all around the world had the same common themes. And then what was sort of discovered by Gregory Shushan, who's a. Who had studied past life religion started finding that there was near death experience accounts in all these religions as well. And the reason that the accounts of what the afterlife was like or this other place was like were so similar was because people were saying, well, I've gone there and come back again. And that the near death experiences around the world were very similar in accounts regardless of what religion, what background, what continent you were living in that you left your body. There was usually some sort of guide there. You had some sort of life review. You were told you had to go back, but you didn't want to. This body and this place is not the, the, the win. It's not where you want to go. And often seeing loved ones and then yeah, and then returning. So I thought that was kind of interesting.

[Mayim Bialik]

It also is significant and this is something Brian Marescu talks about and we spoke about with him in the Immortality Key. You know, the secret history of the religion with no name. There were also long standing traditions where meditative practices, transcendental practices were engaged that let you experience death before death. And he talks about this in some of the foundations of Western civilization as we know it. But they were very similar experiences described of leaving your body. It's ego death, right? And many people experience it with psychedelics. But there's a place, right? And there seems that there's many ways to get there.

[Jonathan Cohen]

The notion that all these religions are either brought on or have their sense of the afterlife informed by near death experiences for me is very comforting. Because it removes the institution of religion and shows these common threads that are linking them to some kind of truth. Because there's no. It doesn't matter the story if it doesn't resonate with people. Like, you can say, well, this part of religion doesn't make sense. Or this institution has caused an enormous amount of damage.

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't like those rules.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Or those rules don't make sense.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But things don't become this popular and strike a chord with this number of people unless there's a universality in it that has some resonance of a truth to it beyond what we can explain.

[Mayim Bialik]

This is where I will say that also it's possible that. And this is something that came up in season one a lot. It's also possible that there's some collective experience that we are describing a certain way. I think season two, it sounds like, is really taking that next level dive to say, what does it look like to sort of clinically drill down and see what can we actually understand about a larger truth?

[Jonathan Cohen]

Like the mechanism or the.

[Mayim Bialik]

Sure. The depth? I mean. Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

And I think the thing that we keep tumbling across over and over again is like, oh, when you go way, way back. All this was common knowledge. It's like we've forgotten. And like, especially in our plant episode, which was. At first, I'm like, what is this episode going to be about? Like, it feels like we need to do it, but what the heck? Like, plants communicate. Like, it feels tricky. And then of course, there was a non speaker in Connecticut who, as soon as she started spelling, was able to tell you, this is what's going on with you. This is the herb you need. You need to have astragalus, some Chinese herb that, like, how would the family know about that? They didn't. So she is able to diagnose someone with a very accurate herb diagnosis. You know, you need to take this tea or have stinging nettles and hot water or whatever.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

And it's the proper medicinal treatment for whatever is ailing the person. And it's proof of authorship. It's proof of telepathy or. Because she's like, I can communicate with plants easily. I can hear them. And at one point, her sister was the one helping spell with her. When I send the questions. And one of the questions like, well, how do you know what plant? And she goes, well, plants communicate. It's more like a smoke around you. It's so soft and so gentle and so there's. But she's like, I'll know who lit the Fire, like, where the message is coming from, what plant? And she's like, they're so loving. They're so unconditionally caring for us. Like, you think about plants really work together. They move to give each other sun. They don't try to take the sun away like we do. And so she had a lot to say about plant and plant communication. But one of the questions we started asking, like, is she actually communicating with a plant, or is the plant some sort of, like, receptor of some informational field that's like, almost like, bing, bing. And then, like, I do this, I do this, but it's, like, reflecting this information from, like, a greater consciousness to us. Or is she telepathically picking up on this Young nunspeaker, has Cuban roots, and she said that she communicates a lot with her ancestors in Cuba and stuff. Is she knowing the knowledge? Because her abuela we interviewed for this, too, and her abuela was like, oh, yeah, like a lot of this. Like, you know, we revered in my culture growing up and that type of thing. And it's like. Or is it you're telepathically grabbing the information from someone else? Like, how is this happening? But when we went back into, like, some of the ancient cultures and stuff, there's so many people who talked about, no, no, no, the plant told me to do this with it.

[Mayim Bialik]

Or.

[Kai Dickens]

Or I could talk to the plants and say, I know you have poison xyz, but I need to reach in here to grab this, so please don't give me the. Make my skin itch. And just a lot of examples of this communication, telepathic communication between plants and humans.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It makes sense to me.

[Mayim Bialik]

This makes sense to you that plants speak to humans?

[Jonathan Cohen]

They would speak in a very soft way. They wouldn't be as loud as an animal would be.

[Mayim Bialik]

That's what makes sense to you?

[Jonathan Cohen]

That makes total sense. Although I think, like, maybe poisonous plants speak differently, maybe could be wrong. Also, I think the question of where that information is coming from. Is it a larger consciousness system facilitating the healing of a human being and the plant is just a messenger or tool for the larger consciousness system? Or do plants have almost more agency or care over human nature? Because you would imagine maybe they're angry at us for, like, chopping them down and pulling them out of our garden? Yeah, but maybe not. No, Maybe they don't carry that.

[Kai Dickens]

I have been asking that a lot with the communication with animals and plants, and no one seems mad at us, which I'm like, how are they not mad at us?

[Jonathan Cohen]

I Would be all the things should.

[Kai Dickens]

Be mad at us.

[Mayim Bialik]

I mean, I have a spiritual answer to that, which is that in a place other than this one, if everything is suffused with love, meaning, if that's sort of like the universal language, I mean, I'm going out on a limb here. But if that is the universal language, it's a place beyond our human understanding of what is possible in terms of tone.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

And in terms of like, it's not that there's good and bad, it just kind of is.

[Kai Dickens]

Right, right.

[Mayim Bialik]

Like that's a. And that from people who have NDEs that we've spoken to, that is such a relief.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

And that is why the decision to come back is so hard. Because what would it. And I got chills on the right side of my skull, you know, what would it be like to be in a place where you don't have to make those judgments? Right. People always say, like, what about Hitler? Where is he? Right. People love to bring up these human, you know, judgment questions. You can't imagine when Betty, when Buddha Betty said that even her abusers, even the people who abused her, the understanding she had of what they had to experience to hurt, it was so it was next level. It was the definition of forgiveness and acceptance. So that's what I would imagine. Again, if we're thinking, if you were a plant. If I was a plant, we can't use human terms. And I think that's what is so interesting that I'd like for you to touch on, which was a large focus of season one. What is it right. About people who, for example, have limited speech that can open up a portal to some kind of other understanding? And what, what do you think that says about what the brain allows us to experience? What did you learn about that? And what does season two offer in terms of who has this ability and why?

[Kai Dickens]

It's interesting because I finished up like one of our final interviews for season two right before this, and I was talking to a non speaking young man who can communicate with horses and animals. And so this is going to answer your question. But it was really interesting because his mom was like, I always knew something was going on. And I wrote a book with him at one point and before the telepathy tapes came out, and she's like, I knew he was telepathic and I was so scared to put it in there. And then, and then we heard the telepathy tapes and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone. Like, this is so wild. And she's Like. So I started testing him, and she's like, I. I didn't know I could test him. And she's like. And suddenly he could do numbers, or I could think of a song in my head, and he could start humming it or playing it.

[Mayim Bialik]

It wasn't just horses.

[Kai Dickens]

No.

[Mayim Bialik]

What was he hearing from the horses? Like, give us an example.

[Kai Dickens]

Okay.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Okay.

[Kai Dickens]

So with the horses.

[Mayim Bialik]

Because, like, I would think horses are like, I'm a horse.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Like, the horse told me he's a horse. I'd be like, that's not really proof. What is the. What is this communication like?

[Kai Dickens]

Like, she would.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Everything's a cartoon in your head.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah. Jonathan has a very special brother. He has a traumatic brain injury, and he's special, and he sees the world in a very different way.

[Jonathan Cohen]

He's also extremely sensitive to other people's thoughts.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

And emotions.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And emotions. So if you are thinking something very loudly around him, he will have a somatic response where he starts yawning, like, he starts to be impacted.

[Mayim Bialik]

We took him to the aquarium, and they had that day a very large.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Alligator, and you don't want to go near its face.

[Mayim Bialik]

And the lady is standing in her little khaki outfit. All the kids are waiting to touch it, and we wait our turn. And I'm with Daniel, and she says, his name is Patrick. Daniel says, how do you know? And she looked at him like. I was like, thanks, bye. But it occurred to like, how do you know? And so that's what I'm thinking. Okay, go ahead.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Sorry.

[Mayim Bialik]

The kid has a horse.

[Jonathan Cohen]

We're very serious.

[Kai Dickens]

The kid has a horse.

[Mayim Bialik]

We've been waiting a long time to.

[Kai Dickens]

Talk to you, so we saved up.

[Mayim Bialik]

All our best jokes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Okay.

[Mayim Bialik]

The kid has a horse.

[Kai Dickens]

The kid has a horse. Yeah. And. And there was all sorts of examples of the horse would be sad because, like, a horse died, or there'd be something going on with the horse people. I mean, the horse, horses, the horse community around death or sickness, and that he would tell his mom, and then the mom would find out separately that, like, yes, this other horse is sick or had passed and stuff like that. But then she said that at one point, Blackjack was dying, and she had to pick up her son and say, like, blackjack has cancer, but the day she picked him up to tell him that, he was really happy, and he's like, no, no, this is, like, good for Blackjack because I'll be able to still ride him on the hill, and he'll be fine. And then now Blackjack Is gone. But she was like. And she also. She's like. I had. He told me he went somewhere without his body, but he didn't start calling it the hill until after the lovely tapes. And he told me, oh, what I used to call heaven, I think is actually the hill. And I go there all the time and et cetera, et cetera. But anyway, he said, I can ride blackjack now when I go out of body, I can meet blackjack there also out of body and ride blackjack. I never. I mean, that is wild.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, and you're distinguishing it from. I can think about what it would be like. That's not what this child is communicating.

[Kai Dickens]

No.

[Mayim Bialik]

Because when. When an animal dies, you can say, oh, I can be with them. Or that. That's not what. No. Well, and there's a place that this, presumably that this child knows is not this corporeal being, but I go somewhere and I can have experiences with this animal that I communicate with.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. And you asked right before that, which brought up the story, and then we went a million wonderful beautiful ways was like, how, why or how does this happen? And so he had said to his mother, when she's like, how and why did this happen? You know, how can you do this? He's like, I had to, to survive. Like, I had no other way to communicate for a long time. I had no other way to engage socially. And this was my survival. And we will find a way to connect as human beings if you don't have one, which is so beautiful. And I've said this many times, I think this has nothing to do with autism. I think in the case of the non speakers we feature in season one, it's about apraxia, this mind body disconnect or not in your body. We've since heard, and we know of parents who've written in that have kids with Rett syndrome, DDX3X syndrome, down syndrome, all sorts of things who are like, this is true of my child as well. And it's not just the telepathy. It's also connecting with spirits or whatever. So that was really interesting. And then as we know, it has to do with Alzheimer's as well. So there's something to do with not being as tethered to your physical form. Like, there seems to be another part of us. There's us, you know, you I can squeeze right now or do whatever. And then there's the other part of us that if we're not functioning in all ways, is also there. Right. With Alzheimer's and near Death experience, right?

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's about a. It's about a shift of consciousness.

[Jonathan Cohen]

There's also something about being tethered to language, reading, writing, and that part of the brain that works on that analytical level, when that's turned off or slowed down, compromised in some way, it leaves room for some other form of communication.

[Mayim Bialik]

Do you explore? Because one of the things that we talked about with Jim Tucker, there are children who claim that they have lived other lives. And there's been some really, really incredible levels of detail research. I mean, this is what, you know, Jim Tucker has spent a lot of his career, you know, talking about. Do you have any sense of what is going on when people are experiencing the consciousness of other people?

[Kai Dickens]

I don't know. I don't know. But like, I can think about what some non speakers have said. And I mean, one is that, like, time is like we have multiple lives happening all at once. There's a young man in England that was like, yeah, you have multiple lives. They're all going on at the same time in different places. That's hard to wrap your head around physics.

[Mayim Bialik]

Does it? I mean, you know, if you get deep enough into theoretical and quantum physics, there's explanations for spin and electrons and things. Okay, so that.

[Kai Dickens]

And so this was also really weird. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around this as a time travel. Remote viewing through time. Is it time folding upon itself? Is it a reincarnation thing? But so for the telepathy tapes film that we're. We just finished our tests, like the big telepathy test across rooms and states and all that stuff. And. And that was brand new group of non speakers, brand new scientists. Like, all the things were new to be like, look, okay, like, it's all new. It's, you know, peer reviewed. And that group of non speakers in Chicago are amazing. And one of the young men at one point starts spelling a word, and both his mom and the teacher are in the room and they're like, what is this word? And they go. They Google it, nothing. They look at in the dictionary, nothing. And then they start doing a deeper dive and probably went into AI or whatever. And finally, this word was used often in the 1200s, but it's out of now. It's out of. No one talks about it anymore. And he had spelled it correctly. And when they asked him about it the next day or a few days later, when they figured out what this word meant, they were like, how do you know this word and how did you use it correctly? And he's like, oh, I found out from the Spanish magistrate in the 1200s. What? Like, how is that an answer? And the horse told me, yeah, but it was like, it was used correctly. And then they looked it up in terms of, like, the Spanish magistrate, and, like, all the things were correct, coming together. And then something happened where he just was done talking about it. And, like, they couldn't, like, bring back that, you know, he was just. Okay, I'm done with that topic. But I need to follow up with them because the question is, like, how did he know that? And he said he went and talked to the Spanish magistrate.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, I don't mean to quote your own season one to you, but, you know, there was. I can't remember which episode it was, but there was. You know, there's evidence of knowing language, knowing things.

[Kai Dickens]

About episode seven.

[Mayim Bialik]

In episode seven. No, but, you know, like, how do we wrap our heads around that? The only way to explain it again, is that information. Right. Is out there and you can pull from it. And it's not linear. Right. Like, time doesn't matter.

[Kai Dickens]

Right?

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah, we're, like, in some sort of, you know, shape that you can just dip into all of it. I don't know.

[Kai Dickens]

I want to maybe blow your mind with a story, but I can't speak of it as articulately as we do in the show because the guy. The way. Okay, so there's a savant who's in episode. I don't know. He's in season two, and he's in the savant episode where we go and look at, like, accidental savants. People have been, like, hit on the head.

[Jonathan Cohen]

This is where I was going to.

[Kai Dickens]

Go without acquired savants. Yeah, or acquired savants. And there's some just, like, born savants. But it's mostly people who had, like, some stroke of genius. Well, he had an accident where he started seeing, like, math everywhere, but more than math, fractals and light. And what he says is, like, how math and physics explain the world is. They're only looking at, like, the screen. Of all the possible opportunities that could be happening now. Probabilities. But he sees beyond the screen. And he's like, what everyone is studying is right. If you're only explaining the screen. And he's like, but I see.

[Mayim Bialik]

Does he see the elves passes the elves of.

[Kai Dickens]

I need to ask him. I know, the elves.

[Mayim Bialik]

The Terence McKenna elves. That's who's behind the screen.

[Kai Dickens]

No, I don't think he's. So what?

[Mayim Bialik]

He describes something that he's visually experiencing.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Like beautiful mind, like equations.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So he sees outside of.

[Kai Dickens]

He sees outside of the thing. And one of the things he says, and this is the where. Please don't quote me because I'm not going to do it. Right. He talks about like, everything is a spinning fractal and you can bring everything down to this one equation or item in the universe, which I don't remember what it is right off the top of my head. But he said that he started doing these like language tests where if you look at the word, you know, casa or home or the same word for like abode in Russian or whatever, the like equation is the same behind everything.

[Mayim Bialik]

So this is a mystical concept. Also in ancient Hebrew, there's a mystical concept that essentially the word, the concept exists and then every language will place its phonemes on it.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes, Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

So in ancient Hebrew, a lot of the words are onomatopoeic because like the word for fire, esh, that's the sound a fire makes. Ish. So that the notion is like, that's why love that.

[Kai Dickens]

You get it.

[Mayim Bialik]

My name, Mayim, is water. It's like a. Mmm.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

So that the word is just the human articulation of the essence of it. I mean, that would be explanation.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Season three of telepathy tapes.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, there you go. Well, you know, it's interesting, like, so we talk a little bit to the Lakota in up in season two because they, their language is exactly the same. It's like what the bird would sound like, correct? Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, it's like the essence of the thing. And then we try and put letters on it.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

And indigenous languages traditionally weren't written. They didn't need to be codified.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I'm fascinated by people who have these injuries because what's happening, right? Like some part of their brain is disrupted, either shut down or becomes non functional and then they acquire some other skill that they did not have before.

[Mayim Bialik]

My dad had back surgery, he said to the doctor, will I be able to play piano? And the surgeon was like, yeah. And my dad's like, I couldn't play before.

[Kai Dickens]

Because his dad joke before surgery.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It wouldn't be appropriate, obviously, to take people in double blind studies and shut down parts of their brain to mimic.

[Mayim Bialik]

No, you can't injure people by hitting them on ahead with a sledgehammer and seeing if they acquire abilities. IRB would have a very hard time approving that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That would not be my approach. My approach would be if there were some way to non permanently shut down those parts of the brain to see if they could.

[Mayim Bialik]

There are ways that you can essentially, like, freeze certain regions and do people get other qualities?

[Jonathan Cohen]

And, like, what would I be willing to trade off to be able to get, like.

[Kai Dickens]

I would like you to be able.

[Mayim Bialik]

To have a conversation without checking your phone. I will exchange it for your dimple on your right cheek.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But, you know, when the materialists who we speak to sometimes, and we let.

[Mayim Bialik]

Them come on sometimes, it's a very.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Challenging conversation to have with them because they are very, very, very certain that none of this is true. And they come at it often with a level of ire and annoyance that you could even contemplate stuff like this in the horse situation, where, you know, some horse used to, I think, did math.

[Kai Dickens]

The counting horse.

[Jonathan Cohen]

The counting horse. And then it's proven that the horse wasn't really. Yeah. Wasn't really counting. It was just very astrude of body language. That doesn't explain how a child would know that a horse not near him has died because he's in communication with another horse.

[Mayim Bialik]

In defense of materialism, what they would say is, we are. We're relying on an anecdotal report. For all we know, this child said, every horse is dead. And what his mother reported or whoever. And this is not to disparage it, but materialists would say, you cannot build a worldview off that kind of report. Because, as I said, what if the kid woke up and was like, oh, the horses are dying? And she'd be like, even this one? And he'd be like, yes, even that one. That's a different thing. And that's why season two is being a little more structured in the way that we're talking about things, because we can't build a worldview on just that.

[Kai Dickens]

There isn't arrogance, though, in this idea that, like, we know all there is to know.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yes.

[Kai Dickens]

Because that's what's exciting to me. I mean, they used to think that God made a rainbow. You know what I mean? I mean? Or the earth was flat. Like, there's many things we believed and the scientists were certain of. And then it changed.

[Mayim Bialik]

We used to believe that everything we see is all that there is.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

Until we realized, oh, there's other wavelengths. And actually we're watching. We're looking at everything that's left over when this object has absorbed all of the other wavelengths that exist.

[Kai Dickens]

Right, right.

[Mayim Bialik]

Or consciousness that most of us cannot access.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

And what you have done is brought to the forefront a conversation about. It may not be everyone, but if there's One person, right, that is experiencing this. That's significant for us as a human species. And it deserves attention, respect, and further research. That's what it means to be a scientist.

[Kai Dickens]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Jonathan Cohen]

How has it been for you to be on the front lines of presenting and opening up people's minds, offering the notion that there is more? Have you felt attacked? Have you met the materialists?

[Kai Dickens]

I was so, so, like, blown away by all that I saw with the non speakers and how widespread this is. And there's so many. There's so much evidence of it beyond. Forget spelling or the easy things to try to attack. Like, it's there with or without it, Right. These kids are doing stuff from the author many states away. So I remember the first time that someone's like, oh, there was like a article in Atlantic saying how contro. I was like, it's controversial. Like, I could not believe it. The vitriol in which some. Some it was being received or, like, rebutted. And. Yeah, and so. And then that kept happening. And then there was a lot of, like, hit pieces where, you know, journalists would say, oh, we want to do this or this or. And take everything out of context or take all, you know, just, like, complete. Where every single person involved was like, what? Like, what is this? And so I wasn't prepared for that. I thought. I just didn't know that could happen to that degree because it felt to me, I was like, but that they're lying, not us. And so that was weird, you know? Cause I'm like. I'm the type of person that's like, you should never ban a book. And information is amazing. And obviously we should have the freedom of the press. And like, I believe in all those things. But it was. And it was so strange to be on the receiving end of, like, wait, I'm the one that, like, they're thinking is, like, maybe bonkers or lying or somehow fraudulent. You know what I mean? Like, it was. And then I just had to be like, I think it was my dad, who's really a materialist, was like, this is great. He's like, they won't be talking about it unless you're getting under their skin. And he's like, it's not gonna be easy. If you're putting out something challenging, keep going. Because I was so worried about. I don't know, you always. I mean, at least me, I'm always worried about, like, oh, my dad was such a. Such a materialist, such a nerd. He reads so much every day. He's so scientific. He does not believe in anything like this. And so it was a big leap for me to do this, not knowing if my dad would like disown me. And then I think going through so many conversations and footage and going to shoots and seeing stuff I brought him, you know, he's completely changed his mind by seeing it next to me. But when some of the articles come out in the magazines and newspapers, I know he loves. It was so beautiful for him to say, this is awesome.

[Mayim Bialik]

What do you feel like season two is incorporating that season one did not have, so that maybe you can refute some of the challenges that people had and were poking at?

[Kai Dickens]

Well, there's two things I think for like non speakers the film will refute. I think anything to do with spelling and all that stuff is just like. And the science, I mean, what's so great right now is the scientists have taken note, not all, but many have done their own telepathy tests now, have done their own message passing tests between non speakers and people in different rooms. And I think the authorship is going to be put to bed. Telepathy tests have been now validated. There's been studies done at Stanford.

[Mayim Bialik]

University.

[Kai Dickens]

Of Virginia, University of Oregon. We followed Dr. Julie Mossbridge, a former Northwestern neuroscientist. I mean, and it was like from different states. Like one of the tests that Dr. Mossbridge did and they were on Zoom because it was like pre trials from different states was a neuroscientist calling from Oregon, I think she was in Virginia. And the student and his communication partner were in Chicago. They had a video on the screen that Dr. Mossbridge had sent or whatever, hit a button and it went to this guy in Oregon. He was looking at a video with a word coming across it. The boy in Chicago starts describing the video and spelled out the word no. And that's it, it's done. Then that's the most impossible telepathy test to do. And it was done.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It's fascinating. And recently we spoke to a materialist who said everything on telepathy in the past is absolutely debunked. There's no validity to it. And like this is, you know, a very important professor. And I'm like, I'm like, where are the links? Where can. Because he's like, if the research comes out, I'll look at it.

[Kai Dickens]

And also like when shooting the film, what was really interesting is a lot of the neuroscientists who've now been looking at this are like, there's two different types of telepathy. We think there's close proximity telepathy where a lot of these non speakers seem to be able to like, dip into the person next to them, like, like mingling of their whatevers. And then there's this like much more common telepathy that all of us, I think, are familiar with, where there's an urgent need, an emotional something that happens where you get, you know, someone's hurt, you know, you need to call this person, you know, X, Y, Z. And I think that's happened throughout time and serves us really well. And that one is almost impossible to capture in a lab setting. I mean, how can you.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

However, and I don't know if this was the non speaker, I was just trying to show off, but in Chicago, Dr. Mossbridge had been doing a bunch of tests over, I think, months or weeks. I mean, we aren't involved with tests, we just document it. So she had to fund them and do her own stuff and do her own trials. We get to show up for one day and that was it. She had done tens of trials before this. On the one day we were there, the most unbelievable account of spontaneous needed telepathy happened while all the cameras were rolling.

[Mayim Bialik]

What was it?

[Kai Dickens]

I can't. I don't want to say because it's like a huge moment in the film. But you see the telepathy happening and occurring not just like throughout the building, but through, like with a stranger in another place. And it's all captured. And so, you know, I feel like any of the doubting of the non speakers, the teachers, the families that came from season one, I think the film will put that to rest. Season two, I mean, I hope it will put it to rest. I don't know. We did our best. I mean, I feel good about it, but there's always going to be naysayers. But season two is a different quest. I think it's less about validating the competence of non speakers and the validity of spelling, and it's much more an exploration of consciousness and materialism.

[Mayim Bialik]

In my family, we have an example of this. I wouldn't have thought of it as spontaneous telepathy. When my mother was pregnant with me. My mother was pregnant with me and she was being driven to a checkup appointment for me. I was born in San Diego and they had just moved from New York and my mom's sister was driving her. She was very pregnant with me. And they were driving to the doctor. And the way the story is told, my mother all of a sudden said to my aunt, turn the car around. We have to go back to mommy, you know, my grandmother and my aunt was like, what do you mean? We're driving to the doctor. My mother said, you have to turn around. My mother felt paralysis on half of her face and her body, and she turned around. When they got home, my grandmother was laying on the floor and had had a stroke and had hemiparesis. Wow. Yeah. And wow. You know, we're Hungarian on that side of my family, and I meet a lot of Hungarian people who are like, oh, yeah, that happens in our family.

[Kai Dickens]

It's also like, really? Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

There's something about the Hungarian ladies, apparently, that we're supposedly have special powers. And my mom clearly has got something. My mother believes she manifests things all the time. But that specific experience, I can't explain that. If I'm believing what my mother reported, that would be a highly unusual thing to have happen, especially for her to experience paralysis. Now, she could be remembering it wrong.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That's what the materialist would say. She could be remembering it wrong because memory is faulty.

[Kai Dickens]

Correct.

[Mayim Bialik]

That the stroke could have been the next day or two weeks before, like we. Which we don't know. And you can't put it in a laboratory. So. Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

Did he. Did this guy comment on all of the Gansfeld studies that have been done over the course of Jonathan Felt?

[Mayim Bialik]

I don't have Jonathan Felt woefully unprepared.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So I feel unprepared to defend the castle. We need a repository, like a document that we can go to and say, well, how about this and what about that? And like the next phase of our conversations needs backup.

[Kai Dickens]

You know, Dean Radin, he kind of goes through on his iPad. He was doing it for my benefit, but then it was so helpful. We're like, oh, we'll just actually put this clip in the movie of him going through his iPad with like all the different metadata around Gansfeld studies across the world. And how, you know, when you look at the thousands of. Maybe it's hundreds, I don't know, the many, many, many, many Gansfeld studies that have been done across the world in different labs over a span of years, it's very statistically significant as much so that, like, if it was a pharmaceutical drug in a trial, you'd be like, yes, approved, you know, but because it's dealing with something. So like. But the thing, what happens, I think, with the non speakers in these tests is in the Gansfeld thing, it's above chance by 5, 6, 7%, which is still statistically relevant.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I mean, I Don't know if it's just me playing out my own materialist's father attitude and looking for his approval. The way that your father sounds like was very lovely that he came on board to this journey. But I do feel like it's a calling of mine to butt up and present information that the materialists either have not accessed or are actively trying to either ignore or discredit and say, well, because I just want there to be some consideration and acknowledgement if, if there is real data. And again, I'm not a data expert, but I'm like, then people who analyze real data, which again, I'm not one of those people, should know about it and agree to it.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And if they choose to then ignore it because of, for emotional reasons or it's just too difficult to explain, purely reject it before evaluating it. That seems like a lack of communication.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. And I think that's, that's the last option you gave is probably more reflective of what's happening because some of those Gonfeld studies have been actually published in mainstream journals. The science is out there. It's just if you can't explain why it's happening, which they can't, I don't think anyone can explain why it's happening or how it's possible and that becomes a problem. Right. But it is happening.

[Mayim Bialik]

Most of this kind of research into trying to understand these other states of consciousness, you know, for, for those of us who are, you know, not in the non speaking autism community. Right. Or in research around those. For, for, for a lot of people, it is about a shift of consciousness that comes usually from a specific kind of meditation.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's like when Thomas Campbell, as a, you know, young physics student tries transcendental meditation for the first time. And all of a sudden he's like rocketed into the universe and doesn't know where time is or his body is. And he's like, what was that like? That's something that most people need to learn to study, to drop into what's special about. I mean, I'd like to study Thomas Campbell's brain to be able to say, what was it about being given some very basic instructions about breathing that I've heard dozens and dozens and dozens of times. And I've never gone to that place ever, ever, ever, you know, and I'm trying and I'm thinking, I'm praying, I meditate. So there's something about certain brains, right, that seem to have some access to a state that is different than the one that we can explain. That's the most basic scientific thing that we can say.

[Kai Dickens]

Because even like lucid dreaming, I can't do that.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right.

[Kai Dickens]

Some people can. Seems really cool.

[Mayim Bialik]

I've had some experiences with, like, the yoga nidra practice, which is you're putting your body to sleep and you're keeping your mind awake, which many people say is this kind of experience. Like, often I just fall asleep.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

I skip right through that theta state and I just go, night night.

[Kai Dickens]

We were. I was like, on a shoot recently and like, everyone at the table had this experience where they felt like they were being attacked by a monster at night. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? Have you heard about this? But it's a sleep process thing. It's like a thing that is really common that happens with sleep paralysis. But you'll actually see what feels like a being holding you down. And everyone at the table is like, no, I'm so certain it happened. I'm like, that did not happen. I mean. And that was me to completely describe. I was like, that was impossible. Like, what do you guys mean? Like, everyone had a.

[Mayim Bialik]

Even Kai didn't believe it.

[Kai Dickens]

I was like, I do. And then I looked it up and it was like, there's a constant. There's a common sleep paralysis for hundreds of.

[Mayim Bialik]

I mean, for probably longer than hundreds of years.

[Kai Dickens]

Oh, it was during the telepathy test. And it was like the dp, the producer and someone else, we were all sitting, having dinner afterward. And like, one of them was like, I've never told anyone this, but, like, this has happened to me throughout time.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

And I wake up and there's like something on me, holding me down.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I've heard about people who have had this.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. And then like, the guy was like, oh, my God. I thought that was just me. And I thought, da, da. And then I was just like, wait, this is like too obscure that you boys are having the same thing. There must be some rational explanation.

[Mayim Bialik]

So, yeah, it's called Night Hag. A phenomenon in which a sleeper feels the presence of a supernatural malevolent being, but also a mare in Germanic and Slavic folklore would historically sit on your chest. A lot of people thought that this was one of the reasons that it was like an old wives tale. Not to let a cat in the baby's crib, that the cat would sit on the baby's chest and suffocate them. So I think it's also, you know, it's something that's.

[Kai Dickens]

But anyway, that's like a thing that happens to some brains that I've never experienced. So it's like we have these things that happen in our brains that you might not expect experience that other people have.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's like not everyone has to experience something and that's what, you know, a lot of materialists will say, well, if that's true, if remote viewing can exist at all, everyone should have it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And I'm thinking, and everyone should be winning the lottery all the time.

[Mayim Bialik]

Like, oh, they'd be able to read the lottery. I was like, no, that's actually not at all how I would imagine that it works. That's like saying if one person is a concert pianist, we can all be like, right. We all have different brains, abilities, like access to different things. So for me, like, that's sort of what resonated, you know, from season one was like, there's something that's getting either released, uninhibited. Right, right. Or accessed as some sort of portal. I don't think of it as magical because I think it's something tangible. We just don't know how to describe it. We don't really know what it is, but we're trying to chip away at it and it's going to take all of us to figure it out.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Well, here's what I think is really great about your show and I think here's what's resonating about, like a lot of stuff. Stuff, just as we even talk about this, is I think for a long time it was felt really binary. Like if you believe in this stuff, you're absolutely silly. You're not worth an academic discussion. You can be discounted. And if you do believe in it, you're woo woo. You're like out of control. Like you're a hippie wearing.

[Mayim Bialik]

Delusional.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. You're like all the things and. And then I think there's a.

[Mayim Bialik]

Did you say wearing purple?

[Kai Dickens]

No. Birkenstocks. I don't know.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

And purple. All the things. Yeah. And I feel like most of us probably fall in the middle where you really don't want to believe in something without a credible reason to believe it. You want to be grounded in reality. You want to have some sort of evidence and data to inform your facts and worldview, but you're also open to that. There's maybe more than what we see and you don't want just to be. I'm one or the other. I want to create a worldview that makes sense and is meaningful based on data and science and observation and anecdotal. Evidence.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Well, you don't want to be fooled in either direction.

[Kai Dickens]

Right, right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Like you don't want to be so out there that like anything is possible. And I walk in and it's the spirits of the house that are controlling me.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, we know a lot of people like that. And those are the kind of people that when I spoke to them about the telepathy tapes, they felt like, and I'm just going to communicate this to you as a personal thank you. They felt like it was a giant hug from the universe because many people felt like I always knew, I always knew that I could feel something different. I always knew I could be in touch with other things. I always knew there was more than what they told me to believe. And for many people, that's what season one of the telepathy tapes did. It was like, I don't need anything more.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

I feel seen. And like if seeing people is the first step to opening that door, that's incredibly important, you know?

[Kai Dickens]

Yes.

[Mayim Bialik]

Thank you.

[Kai Dickens]

Thank you. It's so hard to believe someone that is like, has something to gain by making sure these things are real. Right. Like a medium who's making money off it or a psychic or whatever. And, and, or a healer that sells a lot of books and sells out amphitheaters. I think is there's, it's very easy.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Like, what's the motivation?

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

Or if you have this wisdom, be like the Buddha sit under the tree and I will come get the wisdom.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And, and also not to be a. But sometimes there are people who like, when you say, oh, if you believe this, then you're also into other things. Like sometimes they're into some practices that make it hard to function in everyday society.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think for the non speaking individuals who were profiled in season one, I mean, at least their lives as they were when we were filming them and talking to them, they often weren't going to school. You couldn't up yourself in the social ladder. You weren't gonna make money. You couldn't profit off of anything. You couldn't even live outside of your own home. I mean, there's nothing to gain. And it takes so freaking long to spell a sentence. Like minutes. And often exhausted at the end. So it's like you're not going to sit there and be like, I'm going to buffoon like everyone here.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And you know, but in the same regard that people don't want to be fooled in one direction, I also don't want to Be fooled that material reality is all that there is.

[Kai Dickens]

Yes.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And when we consider what we've learned about the mind body connection, that we can change our pain tolerance, that you can MRI people with back pain and people without back pain, and sometimes, like, more than statistically significant, you can't tell from the images alone who has that pain. Or the placebo effect experiments where people had fake knee surgeries and had the same outcome as real knee surgeries.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah, I like that one.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I mean, like, it starts to really change how we apply medicine.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Right now there's a very scary slippery slope which the materialist will say, well, and this is. Was said to us recently, well, if you believe in God, you won't take medicine. So therefore the belief in God is dangerous. What exactly? If you feel more connected to something and less alone and less despair, and that you are a part of something greater than yourself, which can be described as feeling a sense of God in connection to that source, a universal consciousness, you know, that your immune system works better, you recover from surgery better, you may have less aches and pains, you may feel stronger, more hopeful, and your body will respond accordingly. So, like, I don't want one side or the other to dominate the conversation.

[Mayim Bialik]

Just to clarify, I think that what this counterpoint was, was many people would say, God told me not to take medicine. And so you could argue that simply saying you have a religious faith, that in and of itself doesn't. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't justify anything. Because people kill in the name of God. People do horrible things in the name of God. They, you know, I don't need to list all the things anyway.

[Kai Dickens]

Right. Yeah. It's like the act of faith is more important than the fact of faith. Right. Like, we know that believing in something, even if it's your own healing ability, is really good. And that is something materialists will jump on is like, oh, well, then why does believing have to be the thing? Oh, I can only see blah, blah, blah, if I believe in it. I don't know. But we know the placebo effect works.

[Mayim Bialik]

So believing matters and should be actually utilized much more. I think it would save a lot of people's livers and immune systems if we use the placebo instead of a lot of the medications that we're told to take that in many cases are not helpful.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, sorry. But it's an interesting thought exercise because, like, even when you're talking about some of this stuff, which is pretty, you know, immaterial and unexplained, there is Always this deep reverence, I think from a lot of people. But how do we reach the materialist? Or how do you reach that person out there? And there is part of me that's just like that you don't have to reach everyone.

[Mayim Bialik]

I would like you to.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, I mean we're meaning.

[Mayim Bialik]

I really want that.

[Kai Dickens]

We're trying.

[Mayim Bialik]

I really want that.

[Kai Dickens]

But like you don't. It's not like the mark of whether or not something's true. I think is like, can you change these minds? Can you change some minds? Can you change a lot of minds?

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, and I think that's part of the patronizing aspect of this argument is it becomes this parent you can never please. Right, right. And that everything we do doesn't need to be to please our parent. It needs to be to find what work is most meaningful for us and for you. It's going down this path. And maybe, you know, in that structure, you know, you'll please your parents.

[Kai Dickens]

I'm so like, like struck by that analogy. Just because it was like my real life like that my dad was that I was.

[Mayim Bialik]

And I wasn't even thinking. Yeah, of your dad, but. And also in the patriarchal structure that we live in and also God as father. I mean like all these, all the imagery that we're told is that also.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Do you have time to talk to my dad?

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, totally. He should, you know what we should do?

[Mayim Bialik]

Get all the.

[Kai Dickens]

Get all the dad.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Start a dad listening community.

[Kai Dickens]

That would be interesting. Oh my gosh. That would be so.

[Jonathan Cohen]

And they could have like a support group from. I am not moderating that. Materialists.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Cohen]

I would like to ask you about remote viewing. Does season two incorporate remote viewing? Did that come up in the research? Because we've spoken to Julia about it, we've spoken to other people about Thomas Campbell. We've spoken to about it and others. And it is, you know, a fascinating example of if I'm not tethered to my physical form, if my consciousness is able to move freely around this non material world, if the people who have had near death experiences have the ability to have 3D vision, then what else is possible?

[Kai Dickens]

I think we're going to do a whole season remote viewing because it feels like one of the most concrete treat psi abilities that many people can learn and experience. We know governments have poured a lot of money into it. There's a wonderful book by Annie Jacobson called the Phenomenon and It's not about UFOs, it's about the CIA psychic spy program.

[Mayim Bialik]

We spoke to Angela Ford, who could frequently leave her body as a child, but never thought of it as a special ability, and then was trained in remote viewing and worked for the government and solved some very specific, very specific crimes with her skills.

[Kai Dickens]

I think that is just more validation that. Well, okay, it's interesting. Cause we actually have one story in season two about someone who takes psychedelics and is able to find missing children through remote viewing.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's literally an episode of Black Mirror. Really what they need to be under the influence to access.

[Kai Dickens]

Well, this was more of like an elder in, you know, a South American tribe.

[Mayim Bialik]

But, yeah, that's a tool that was used.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. To find some children who were missing, like in the jungle that governments couldn't find. But they finally were like, let's tap in. You know, the elder. And I think it was ayahuasca, you know, and. And it was a very sacred thing. It's not like, hey, party, we're at Burning Man. It was like, okay, let's go find these kids. And they did. So if you can turn that stuff on through psychedelics.

[Mayim Bialik]

And we know what's going on in the brain to some extent with psychedelics. I mean, we have some indications. Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

I mean, I just feel like there's such. If non speakers are clearly saying they can do it. And I think it happens quite often. You know, exactly where mom is when this was happening. Or you have to look at the overlap. Right, right. You have to look at the overlap. Right. It happens with psychedelics. It happens with these psychic spies. We know government spent a lot of money. Meditation, Tom Campbell leaving his body and doing. I mean, it happens from so many different things. So that to me is like. That's a slam dunk. Like, how on earth can you describe so many different sects of people having the ability to see something somewhere very far away? Something very far away.

[Jonathan Cohen]

So there's an example of someone who's using it to find children. We spoke to Angela.

[Mayim Bialik]

She's like, would find a criminal that the town that he was in.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Do you have a little bit of sort of an explanation for people if you're like, ramping them into this idea? Like, again, the materialist, which has really stuck with me, this conversation. Yeah, we brought it up. And he was like, well, the government has spent money on a lot of stupid things. That doesn't mean that it's true. And I'm like, this is. We spoke to someone also.

[Mayim Bialik]

Generally speaking, I don't like what the government does a lot of the time. So I'm like, right. I can't pick anything, choose.

[Jonathan Cohen]

But in my mind I was like, oh, the CIA is spending their time. And we spoke to someone who was like using this skill to solve crime. I thought maybe that would validate it a little bit for them. And. And it didn't. But like, I feel like maybe understanding the history and the origins a little.

[Kai Dickens]

Bit more when maybe one of the non speakers and their parents are here for like the film or something, you just see it, just experience it. Bring your dad and then you'll just see the telepathy right here. We can do it. We'll put the partition down. Think of a word, write it down.

[Mayim Bialik]

Oh my gosh, I would love that. Yeah, I would love that.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Experiencing everything you have in creating this content, speaking to the scientists. Have you opened up any of your own telepathic or intuitive abilities?

[Kai Dickens]

It's so not my focus right now. And I feel like that it needs to be that way. You know what I mean? Like, I have to stay fully tethered in a material world and want to be so that I can. I don't know, I feel like that will be a fun thing to do in 10 years, like when I'm more retired.

[Mayim Bialik]

But you do open up a bit about some of your personal life in the kind of between seasons one and two. So I think that's also an important part of the story that you are also open to saying. If we broaden the lens of what we believe is possible, it doesn't have to be something that we can't question personally.

[Kai Dickens]

Right. And I'm questioning all of it personally. The thing that I'm like, I think it could be one choice right now to be like. Because I think if you really want to get good at some of the stuff, you have to spend a lot of time doing it. And I think that I'm more open to things. So things are. That I might have discounted before are. Are happening.

[Mayim Bialik]

Okay, I'm gonna ask you something. I have to ask you.

[Kai Dickens]

Okay. Okay.

[Mayim Bialik]

Have you done psychedelics?

[Kai Dickens]

I have done. Yeah, Mushrooms. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Have you had any experience with altered consciousness that you can connect to the kinds of altered consciousness you got to study in the telepathy tapes?

[Kai Dickens]

I did like this guided mushroom thing with this shaman who was really good and has done this many, many times and was really kind supposed to really, you know. And I went with some, some friends who are like the most G rated grownups. They work at Disney, you know. And like, you know, like. And we did this thing together and I. Everyone had this amazing Experience.

[Mayim Bialik]

Oh, no.

[Kai Dickens]

And I was being told by the mushrooms the whole time I was not allowed to experience it.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Wow.

[Kai Dickens]

And I was doing it, like, for research. It did feel like. Because at this point, like, I was headlong in the plant episode. I'm like, wait, what is going on? Like, I must be experiencing something because I.

[Mayim Bialik]

At least they're talking to you.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Because I was like, I'm full on feeling like I'm having a conversation with the mushrooms. So I felt like something is obviously altered because I felt that. But then I be like, why can't I experience anything? And then the mushrooms would tell me, because if you. We can't even answer that, because if we answered it, you'd be experiencing it. And I'm like, what? We're doing a huge episode on energy healing in the next season, and it was some of the best energy healers ever, I think. And I'm sure we're missing a ton, but some great ones. There's one energy, really? Okay. So this one energy healer I met, she's like, it's stronger for me if I could do it remotely. And I was like, really? And she goes, yeah. In fact, that's the only time I can remote view. I will go to heal someone, and I can tell them what the room looks like, where they're sitting, what they're wearing, all the things about what it is. But I could only do it when I'm entering their space to heal them. And she's like, and I have people come into my office all the time, but it's not as, like, succinct and perfect as when they're far away. I'm like, oh. Because I know I have this big problem going on my left knee. So I was like, can you energy heal me? And she's like, yes, it works better outside. Go find your. Go be outside. After 40 minutes, she's like, I can't find you. Like, what do you mean you can't find me? She's like, it's like there's a bubble around you or block. I'm like, what? I'm like, well, this sucks. And so I was like, we, like, go inside. And I'm like, can you find me now?

[Mayim Bialik]

Like, you know, how about now? Yeah, yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

And then all of a sudden, she starts saying, okay, I am getting something. And she starts rattling all this stuff. And I'm like, none of this is true to me. My wife walks in the room. This is so weird. And she's been having this, like, penetrating pain in her collarbone. That's like, awful. And she tore her ACL or something in her knee, like, five years ago. But the energy healer starts talking about, like, this penetrating thing in the collarbone and how bad it is and how I have to get it looked at and how there's something in my. In the knee. She wasn't reading me, she was reading Kaisa. And I was like, what? So it's like I. And then I'm like, did. And I don't know. I mean, I was like, is this. Did the non. Speakers put some bubble around me or something? I don't know what's. What do you think?

[State Farm Representative]

Why?

[Kai Dickens]

Do you know what you. What do you know?

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, I mean, I. I don't know. I think. I mean, do you want me to do this?

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah, I want to know.

[Mayim Bialik]

So I think there's a couple things going on. And what I think is that the energy around the work that you have done is enormous. It's enormous. And you became famous and infamous.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

In a way that I don't think anyone could have guessed, predicted, or projected. And the reason that it is so important for you to stay grounded is what many scientists in this arena have discovered, which is that if you dip into belief, it can adulterate the research you're doing. And even though, as you said, you're documenting others research, there has to be a part of you that knows how important it is to preserve the sanctity of objectivity. So while I commend you for trying to go there as an experiment. Yeah. I believe that there's a larger wisdom for your path that in some way is not going to allow you to let go that way, because it will give you a completely different lens that is not as objective. So it's not your path now. Right. And one day it may be.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

But right now, I think that's really powerful. You know, you may have had the most powerful experience of all, even though it didn't feel like what you thought it would be. Which I would say is the description of everyone's life.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

Right.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Such. Because I've, like, known that inherently. Like, I'm not allowed to. Like, when I first started answering, I'm, like, not allowed to. I can't.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

And I don't know why, but you just put words to it. Yeah, but it was really funny. Like coming out of the tent in Topanga Canon, when all my friends are like, I think the trees are breathing and the wolves. And I'm like, you guys kidding me right now?

[Jonathan Cohen]

You're like, the mushrooms won't Talk to me. Yeah.

[Kai Dickens]

I went to bed. I was like, all right, well, thank you.

[Mayim Bialik]

That's amazing.

[Jonathan Cohen]

That's an amazing story. You're a Hungarian roots coming out also right now.

[Kai Dickens]

No, that was, like, such a beautiful explanation.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, to me, there's not. But to me, it's not even that there's anything magical about it. Unless. Right. I mean, unless you believe that the human experience is magical, which I think it is. It's divine in its own wisdom.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's not like I believe that there's some, like, overlord running a simulation who's like, I'm gonna decide.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

But what you are putting out. Right, is it permeates you, you know?

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. That's so interesting.

[Mayim Bialik]

Yeah. Or it would just take a much higher dose, literally, to allow you to leave without any.

[Kai Dickens]

Well, the guy, the shaman, when he came by, and he's like. He's like. I'm like, it's not working. And. And he's like, but I gave you a hero's dose. Like, he's like, there are so many. This is like.

[Mayim Bialik]

Well, there are people also who don't. Who don't metabolize.

[Kai Dickens]

Right.

[Mayim Bialik]

The same way Paul Stamets talked about.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah. Yeah. But I, like, I've done microdoses before where I'm like, this is great. You know, it just feels like I.

[Jonathan Cohen]

Agree with everything Mayim said. And also when you do something like that, your energy field gets dispersed. It's not the same as when you go there through a meditation practice, which is a much more integrated experience. And so especially being out there ruffling some people's feathers and getting a lot of energy at you, the likelihood is, for your own safety, it's better to stay contained and grounded than to open yourself up at all.

[Kai Dickens]

Yeah.

[Mayim Bialik]

And you can't put the genie back in the bottle, like, now, you know, your journey is now this larger collective journey, and it's very special. And we're so, so honored that we get to talk to you and be a small part of your journey. And we have so many friends of our podcast who, you know, have wanted us to connect, and we're just so grateful. So where can people tune in to season two?

[Kai Dickens]

All right, so season two will start October 15th. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, iHeart, YouTube, Amazon, wherever it is. Art 19, we're there. And the film will be out early next year.

[Mayim Bialik]

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I got nothing else to say. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have we'll see you next time.

[Jonathan Cohen]

It's Maya Bialix Breakdown.

[Kai Dickens]

She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience ADHD or two and now she's gonna break down.

[Mayim Bialik]

It's a breakdown.

[Kai Dickens]

She's gonna break.